Are there authentic secular writings about Jesus? - Creation Today Claims
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ย. 2018
- In Eric Hovind and Tim Chaffey's new podcast, they answer the question, "Are there authentic secular writings about Jesus?" It's one asked by believers and skeptics alike... what do we have outside of scripture that coincides or confirms what the Bible says?
Bible Q&A - Are there authentic secular writings about Jesus?
• Are there authentic se...
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Biblical History Skeptic / channel
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Glad I could help with this one!
Thank you so much to you and Biblical History Skeptic for your invaluable input into the script. Everyone please check out their channels!
Godless Engineer - If God isn't true and the Einsteinium view of the Universe is true, then how is it that ancient goat herders were able to predict the future with such astounding accuracy? Einstein has stated that faster than light communication is not possible, so that means communication from the future cannot be the source of their information. And the God of the bible claims that PROPHECY is the evidence of His existence, whereby He can announce the future history of mankind before it comes to pass. So should humanity believe skeptics like you who know nothing other than what they themselves have been taught by other men. Or should we trust the writings of scripture which have been recorded for more than 2 millennia and are supported by numerous prophetic fulfillment?
th-cam.com/video/lRCh54zN7hc/w-d-xo.html
@Marilyn Newman I cited that study when I announced on Facebook that I had cancer. I specifically asked that if anyone was going to pray for me, that they NOT TELL ME.
@@delawarecop There are my criteria for considering something a fulfilled prophecy...
- made clearly and demonstrably prior to the events predicted
- intended to be a prediction
- an extraordinary, non-mundane, claim
- answerable by a single clear occurrence
- not open to interpretation
- not something people are actively working to fulfill
I'm unaware of any biblical prophecies that qualify. Can you point me to one?
Skeptic Psychologist - "Therefore eisteinium is demonstrated to be true. It has no known uses, but I doubt you can "view" the universe or make prophesies with it?!"
LOL -I just love it when atheist expose their ignorance publicly. You appear to be losing touch with reality, so get with it old man:)
groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.astronomy/seO36E1UnsM
www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=23324.0
I’m sorry about my fan club, they can’t wrap their heads around the concept of EVIDENCE.
It's ok, Jesus. I forgive you.
Atheists have no evidence. All the evidence points to God.
Have a thankless thanksgiving ya moron
@@atheismkills3748, of course all evidence points to god when all you have to do is just say - this and this and that and that is evidence for god. Like - look, there is a sky, its evidence for god. Look, there is beautiful valley, don't you see that it points to god existence. Look how complicated DNA is, it certainly is evidence for god. And so on, so on, so on... You sure have it easy.
Jesus Christ all evidence is evidence for creation
sasilik DNA is a code, codes have coders, pretty implicit... it cant write itself, nobody has witnessed abiogenesis
"I spent the best 5 years of my life in 4th graders"... forgot about that line... always makes Eric... a *lot* less funny... *shivers*
4th is a great year. The kids blossom. But maybe Hovind needed some extra bullshit? Errr I mean fertilizer... lol
No one can copyright a joke.
I think he meant he spent 5 years as a 4th grader.
well he is a Humonculus.
@@RiotKurhein Freud was a parlor trick; but this one's too easy.
To me, the most significant omission from secular sources is the events in Matthew 27:51-53: at the resurrection of Jesus, an earthquake broke rock, tumbled buildings, opened graves, and the dead within rose and walked through the city, with this being seen by many. Anyone, no matter what their background, who saw *that* would surely remember and comment on it. Yet not the slightest mention of these most alarming events exists outside scripture, despite it occurring within the Roman civilization at its height.
Even if you allow for exaggeration and myth-building, he describes an earthquake that opened graves and tossed the skeletons around so it appeared as if they had walked a short distance. Maybe that would have been within the bounds of possibility for a natural event. Maybe the story, as written, was within the bounds of possibility for exaggeration of the natural event. But even an entirely natural event of that kind would have been heavily documented.
An *earthquake.* Severe enough to open graves and toss skeletons around. Film at 11. It would have been in every blog. OK, they didn't have blogs back then but they did have people writing about events. Josephus would have mentioned it in great detail, as would many other writers. Prophets and priests would have produced works explaining why JHVH had done it and they would have been incorporated into the Judaic canon.
It didn't happen.
It's even less believable that there was an eclipse that no one - in a world obsessed with studying the sun, moon, and stars - didn't report. That would have been seen over a huge area of the world, and not a mention.
Bear Mro
- My thoughts, exactly. In fact, not only did the Romans, Josephus, et. al. not mention it, Mark, Luke and John (whoever they were) also did not seem to notice the zombie apocalypse!
Also, according to Mathew, Herod slaughtered all the boy children under the age of three. How many extra-biblical references to this crime against humanity? Exactly zero! Again, even Mark, Luke and John didn't seem to notice the slaughter of the innocents. One has to wonder...
@@johns7734
Josephus *despised* Herod and documented everything he found wrong with Herod's actions. Josephus would have devoted an entire chapter to this slaughter of children, had it actually happened. He wrote not a word about it. Nor did any other writers who, whatever their views of Herod, would have thought it a significant act.
@Marilyn Newman
Would have been impressive if they'd been her real teeth.
Fun interpretation, I'm from Sweden, walking on water isn't really an accomplishment here, if the season is irrelevant.
Around 1980 I said, "Jesus walked on the water because they had no word for ice."
@@sammy4231 that was a running gag when I was in school during the 90's.
Giggling now very true
@TheRelihunter Where to start? well first off there's no hieroglyph that even implies he walked on water and Isis committed an act of necrophila with Osiris to get impregnated.
_Isis committed an act of necrophila with Osiris to get impregnated._
How is that relevant to the discussion?
I'm glad your channel and other similar channels keep the comment sections open. I did some looking at many theist channels and almost all of them locked their comment sections. I like people who are open to discussion and listen to criticism. More power to all of you.
The truth can withstand inspection and discussion. Lies cannot.
Theists dont like questions
Says everything about the strength of their faith.
It's a sign that their stance has been critically weakened and they are losing confidence that the damage can ever be restored. Their prayers sound something like this: "Where the Fuck are you, Jesus?!! You said you were coming right back. You Fucking lied to us. So, while You and your Dad are biding your time up there in Heaven watching internet porn and fornicating with Angels, we remain stuck down here looking like fools. I'm giving you one more year to get yourself together and return for the rapture, or I'm going postal on as many TV ministries as I can find!"
Because the comments are 80% B.S.
I notice how quickly they gloss over the fact that Pliny the Younger was born 30 years after Christ was born.
Pliny the Younger was born in 61 CE, about 30 years after Jesus purportedly _died._
@@YY4Me133 Thank you for the correction, that was what I was thinking when I wrote that. Senior Moment strikes again.
@@gerardtrigo380 All of them were born after his death, except maybe the guy who we only know about his writings through a third hand account. They simply don't have any contemporary accounts, and all of these people are merely saying what some people (christians) think. If I talk about how Mormons believe in Kolob, that doesn't mean I believe Kolob is real.
@@gerardtrigo380
No problem. I have them, too.
I also Notice quickly that despite being a mainly science based channel this guy magically thinks he's also a historian
Even *IF* Josephus said that he personally believed that Jesus was the Messiah, I still wouldn't call that "contemporary" because Jesus died several years before Josephus was even born. By the time Josephus was an adult, all the people who might have witnessed the virgin birth, the Star of Bethlehem, and Herod's Massacre, were probably dead. Anyone who witnessed Jesus' miracles and resurrection would be in old age. So Josephus was, AT BEST, getting third-hand information that was decades old. And this is the closest source we have. All the others are even further removed.
And, as pointed out in the video, we don't really know with certainty what Josephus actually said or if his words were twisted, misquoted, mistranslated, edited, changed, or forged.
We do know that writing history was an expensive exercise at the times, and we also know josephus was employed by a ruler/king whom claimed himself to be the messiah. As such we can easily dismiss the jc account in josephus' writings - jo wouldve been executed and account destroyed.... And thats just 1 reason or evidence the account was inserted by someone else much later.
@sbunny8 I’m almost embarrassed to admit that despite the research I’ve done, I don’t remember connecting these dots in particular...that Josephus’ lifespan did not overlap with Jesus.
Although it’s possible (in a mathematical/hypothetical sense) that he had some second-hand information from the latter part of Jesus’ time, nothing in the text makes this evident.
Anyway, thanks for pointing this out.
Oh, so these people count writers who could never have known Jesus Christ as unbiased witnesses? It's like me recounting the horrors of WWII, even though I wasn't even born until 1956.
Do you know the meme, "You can never be too young to have a Vietnam flashback?"
No, and that would undoubtedly apply to US citizens.
Thing is...there is way more evidence that ww2 actually happened than any god existing. :D
@@garygood6804 There is plenty of hard evidence for WW2, but no hard evidence for god. Nobody needs to depend upon anyone's unsupported recollections to establish the fact that WW2 actually occurred.
@@clemstevenson did I not just post that?
Thanks Tim and Eric. That was an awesome show. Great job.
I had a Christian the other day tell me that in order to find evidence of God, I need to fully believe Jesus and accept the Bible first.
But isn’t Jesus on tv on a daily basis now. I believe millions of Americans see him in an overweight serial rapist in diapers. Was that what we should have expected of Jesus second coming? Could it be that hateful racist isn’t Jesus 2.0 after all?
I am 62 and there are many people in my age range who have raised children. Unfortunately many of these children (all in their mid to late 30s) are ministers. As more and more churches close, there is no where for these people to go. They are like fleas on the body of a dying animal.
It will feel like the end of Catholicism in England, ended by Henry VIII--the closure of the monasteries. Thousands of monks and clerics who made their living working for the Catholic Church suddenly out of work, in an era without any social conscience of support for suffering people.
@Luminya M
The Clergy Project is a wonderful support group for ministers leaving the faith.
@@DutchJoan I agree, it is a wonderful support group.
I'm glad that the clergy project was mentioned.
I also came into this comment to mention it.
@@rowannieuport3942 yes the end of a chruch/religion that brought suffering on people and told them that they should toil on because stuff will be better after they die....while picking their pockets.
Sometimes I wish I could be as simple-minded and ignorant of reality like these guys... life would be so much easier if I could be that clueless, for the bible tells me so.
Also makes me wonder if these guys believe what they are saying or are they just preying on innocents to get their self prestige and to fleece the flock for their money. I wonder could they make money outside of religion? Maybe as used car salesmen I suppose.
Tim Chaffey's fast talking reminds me of a used car salesman.
agreed and used car salesmen have a long tradition of dishonesty.
@@hermesbrookover285
My thought too. Tactics to disguise dishonesty.
Sounds like he's on speed
It's called gish galloping. Talking fast to prevent anyone from absorbing what is being said. Shapiro is known for using that method.
Quakers are so good with it. Ben Shapiro, Charlie Kirk...
Hi Paul...thanks for another interesting video. 👏
Awesome glad I found this channel I am new to leaving my faith but feel so much better knowing I have good info:)
I find it amusing when I claim that we have no contemporary writings of Jesus, they immediately mention Josephus. When I point out that he was born in 37 ad and was therefore not a witness then his accounts are at best second hand. And for each of these people Tacitus and so forth. The real interesting thing is that there were plenty of people who could have written first hand accounts, having lived in the area at the time, but didn't. You would think that all the "miracles" would have been reported by them, but didn't. And leave it to someone who hasn't been born yet. Hardly reliable. And yet this is the best they can come up with.
*Exactly!* It's the _total silence_ of all _contemporary writers_ that says it all.
Those few writers who, decades later, reported on the Cult's beliefs are still not attesting to the magic stuff that Jesus was supposed to have done according to the anonymous gospel narratives.
“It doesn’t matter what team I cheer for when I ask what the score of the game is.”
Wow. That’s a good one. I’ll have to remember that.
I am so glad I have followed you! Thanks for another great video!
Outstanding! I so much appreciate your work, thank you!
Okay all I can focus on is dudes freaking super human ability to talk like fast forward.
So, No, there isn't any contemporary record that confirms that Jesus was even a person. The best they have is a few second and third hand sources written long after the time when Jesus was supposed to have lived, and talk more about what Christians believe or claim instead of accounts of what happened.
The story of Jesus reads like a standard "tall tale" sort of folklore or legend, and a lot like the old Greek/Roman stories about their heroes and gods (even repeating many deeds and traits from those stories). Just like the Odyssey and the American tales of people like John Henry and Paul Bunyan. Stories based on some real person, group of people, or event that get exaggerated with each telling, often with some supernatural thrown in for seasoning.
@@RandomBeing101 ... except we have lots and lots of dinosaur fossils, many different ones from many different areas. And what do you mean "rest" of the records? That wording makes it seem like there are records of Jesus that we have, which there are not. We have stories and records of what people claim and/or believe from decades after his supposed death, not records of what actually happened during his life.
We can point directly to many, many forms of evidence for evolution and the age of the earth. Those things are confirmed by multiple, separate and unrelated types of evidence. You are not comparing apples to apples.
The _tu quoque_ logical fallacy is a favorite way of diverting away from actually trying to provide support, and is a favorite of theist apologists, especially Christians. It is dishonest, pointless, and confirms that they have nothing to use in support of their claims/beliefs that is valid.
@@RandomBeing101 : Yeah, because the Roman church, when it had the power to preserve all evidence in their favor just decided to abrogate and let it sink into obscurity. The most evidence that has been found in the past couple of centuries favors the mythological underpinnings of Christianity and not its historicity. Just another theist cretin.
Victor Polk Either prove you shitty sky wizard exists or piss off.
@@RandomBeing101 Just a question... Where pharaons direct descendants of Osiris and other gods? Because lot's of Egyptian antient books claims so...
All that Xians will remember from the cited video is that these guys talked about how Jesus was proven by contemporary sources, not what those sources are or that those sources were even mentioned. Preachers used to be able to get away with that technique before the internet and YT.
Morning Paul always an avid fan of your videos serious but also very entertaining and very much informative
Sure there were...if you count those accounts written decades after the supposed death of Jesus and based on second, third, fourth, etc hand testaments. ;)
@Skeptic Psychologist Very well said! Imo, the lack of contemporary sources writing about Jesus is really a glaring hole in the story and leads me more towards the whole Jesus story being mythology.
It seems that all we _do_ have are a few obvious interpolations that aren't even written as first hand accounts!
Cheers! :)
@Skeptic Psychologist So true! But logically looking at the issue is not how most Christians go about deciding on the historicity of Jesus :)
To all, this is why I find any historical figure quite absurd - even if he was simply a top-notch charlatan who gathered a larger crowd of followers than other charlatans. His mention is spurious at best, misquoted at most, and interpolated at worst from a historical perspective. That says a whole lot about how 'important' Jesus was to actual history - not at all. He didn't exist. The religion, oh, it existed since the early 1st Century. Its inherents had symbols and stories, much of which do not currently resemble the symbols and stories we now have that have been forced to be associated through nearly two millennia of abject control. The entire 'real person' montage of Jesus the Christ was constructed over a short period within a century (early 2nd to early 3rd) to jibe with the aesthetics of the time (a historical Jesus figure). Before that (the Gospel of John, Pauline letters, and other written texts) Jesus was always a vague figure in another world - the Saviour, the Son of God, the Son of Light, the Lord of Righteousness, and many things that were ethereal and not material. Paul never ONCE mentions the actual life and teachings of Jesus as if he was learning from history. It is all about revelation. Time to flush this delusion down the toilet.
And not only were the writers born decades after the death of Jesus, I sorta doubt they came out of the womb with a pen in hand writing histories. You may need to add a couple of decades for them to grow, be educated, and secure a position that gave them the luxury to write a book.
@Skeptic Psychologist he did write about Jesus
Your journaling of their dishonesty is priceless.
Thanks for everything you do Paulogia. I am a fan from Paraguay.
im new to the channel and have been watching videos until i found this one for your opinion on this exact question. thank you.
This is my first video of you I'm watching, I'm a new subscriber that came from GM skeptic. I love your balanced and calm views especially on biases and agenda. Thank you this video was really interesting !
Welcome Malika!
@@Paulogia I would love more videos on this topic of Jesus' historical accuracy!
2:45 - 2:46 Did he just say " I spent the best 5 years of my life in 4th-grader"?!
Little Freudian slip there, Eric? ;D
Tim & Eric
LOL
Awesome show-great job!
I just want to say to Tim and Erik, awesome show, great job!
Thank you for presenting this. I’ve always wondered but couldn’t be bothered wading through Christian texts
Noah fan fiction? Ah hahahaheheheheheh! (rolls on floor in cat hair)
I've no idea how you can watch this stuff unfiltered. Kudos
Paul, being a bit late to the party here, so to speak, diving into your older videos has been a well of slow laughs and head nods. You have a tongue-not-quite-in-cheek style of, ehhh... almost subtlety (?) that is damn funny. Don't stop; it's pure gold. 🍻
What's curiously missing is the claim that finding "Jesus" written somewhere around Jerusalem is a proof of the bible. Did they finally figure out that Jesus was by no means an uncommon name and that finding a Jesus in Jerusalem 2000 years ago is akin to finding a John in New York today?
Ox777 It is like finding a Jesus in Mexico or Spain.
@@TorianTammas Right. I'm usually very amazed at how many people in California outright worship their gardener but can't be assed to learn how to properly pronounce his name.
Well, technically, the name would be Yeshua, or the English equivalent "Joshua". But doesn't negate the point. Like Mary may have been Mariam, Maryam, Marian, Merhiam, and another spelling I can't recall, all meaning the same thing and were technically the same name (like Liam is William, or even similar to words like grey and gray).
Another great video you should feel proud of Paulogia! You have become one of the great secular TH-camrs that I genuinely look forward to watching for their latest offering. So, congrats once again for doing a bang-up job but also my condolences for having to refute the same tired theistic arguments. As amusing as you make it, responding to Hovind and Ham must be like endlessly pulling the same scab off over and over. But, I'm sure you are reaching some believers, thereby planting seeds of scepticism that will eventually lead to more converts to rational thought, and that must make it worth all your effort. Thanks also for keeping the rationale fresh in my mind for my own "sheeple" encounters.
I hate to be the one to kick the comments count over to 667, but...
It’s amazing to me to see what these people will accept as positive evidence to support their beliefs, but would dismiss in any other situation.
@@jakesanders136
What veracity? People who lived 20+ years after the supposed life of the Nazarene Jesus recorded the popular myths of this character. Oh... and some guy had a vision while walking through the desert. That’s all ya got, Hero; tall tales and heat stroke.
Good Video as usual. Do you speed up their video to play it back faster or do they record it that way? They sound like the people that list the disclaimers after an Auto or Drug advertisement.
I grin with pride that somebody else has basically used my phrasing that the Bible is being tried for breaking the Law Of Fictionality Of Stories About Wizards, Zombies, And Talking Animals.
The prosecution team might as well consist of Curly Howard, Shaggy from Scooby Doo, and a ficus plant.
The main three I was told about was (limited only) Flavius Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. Nothing from Plutarch, Polybuid, Pausanias, Herodutos and Xenophen with finally Philo of Alexandria. Nothing has ever been found to support the claim of Jesus during the first century c.e.
I'm pretty sure the historical consensus is that the Josephus stuff was interpolations, as they didn't fit the style nor the subject matter of the paragraphs around them.
Look up bart erhmans argument
I sort agree with you, but for only "TESTIMONIUM FLAVIANUM" because when it appeared and who introduce the passage. The majority (for which I was taught) agree that Josephus works him own.
@Daniel Eyre Why do you assume? I have read in books on history that modern consensus has it that there are zero contemporary references to Jesus and that nothing until at least 2-3 decades after the alleged events are anything but later interpolations. Richard Carrier is not a source I use nor I'd Godless Engineer. Also there is no mention in Josephus of the earthquake or dead rising or any other of the spectacular resurrection claims. At best you have second or third hand accounts recorded missing things that should be there if they really happened. But, by all means make an ass out of u and me by assuming and not even trying to ask me to clarify or have a dialogue. Fuck off.
@Daniel Eyre it's obvious only to you. The Testomonium is considered an interpolation by many historians, the Jesus' brother James passage about James' excecution(which does not match other tales of the execution) is considered by most historians likely authentic but doesn't work even if it is because Josephus was born _after the alleged death of Jesus_ , he was born in 37 AD, with Jesus' death between 30 and 33 ad, making anything he had to say _at least_ second hand and without _any_ corroboration contporary to Jesus' alleged life and death.
You must _know_ this, and if you know anything about historical method, you know that such sources are not strong evidence at all. Or do you consider the writings of a man _born_ 4-7 years after the alleged facts first hand observations of history? And even if they were, which they are not, they have zero corroboration, which is key in historical method. The bias is strong in you.
The big question is why writers and historians who were contemporary to Jesus such as Pliny the Elder put down not a word about Jesus of Nazareth or any of the miracles he supposedly performed. Imagine Billy Graham bringing all the dead Christians in Charlotte, NC back to life or Oral Roberts miraculously feeding a mob with a single Subway Sandwich and a bag of Chips. Do you not think that every newspaper in the country, or at the very least every newspaper in the state, would write about it?
It would. And some of it would have to had made it into official documentation from the Romans.
@@DutchJoan
Or in their letters.
@Trolltician
Atheists do not complain of the plethora of Jesus like narratives, they merely point out that such claims are common enough not to make the Jesus story particularly special.
@Trolltician First, are you going to deny there were a large number of "Messiah" type characters and other street preachers during that period of history? Why ARE some of them noted in contemporary records but not Jesus of Nazareth?
So what you are saying is that the Roman Empire, who kept pretty good records for the time, would have NO record whatever of a "Penniless street preacher" that they tried publicly and crucified in front of a huge number of witnesses? A person who just happened to gather huge crowds (even in that "distant" province), physically attacked Roman functionaries and performed huge miracles with a large number of witnesses and no one outside of the sect he founded noted any of that? Logic states there would be at least ONE other account, probably more. For that matter I'd think a day where the Sun goes dark for three hours would be a somewhat noteworthy occurrence. Yet, nothing.
As to the stories in the Bible, of course they count. But there is no secondary source for any of them AND the primary sources are strongly in dispute. If we don't know who wrote them, when they wrote them and they have huge discrepancies within them...why should we trust them? Other than "faith", which proves nothing but the power of advertising?
@Trolltician
The cult was pushed at a time in history when people were ready to accept other gods, signs and portents. Get the ruler to believe and you have it made, after that the sword is a useful persuader.
Some of Jesus's miracles were so astounding I am sure any contemporary historians would record them. But they didn't.
Hi Paul.
I'm watching this after I watched your internet conversation with Eric yesterday (9 Apr 2020) and I'm happy to report your future self did quite well, although Eric did try to nail you down to yes or no answers. It was very nice. Eric sounds like a nice guy. Also, I'm sorry to hear that you lost your family over your conflict.
Let me re-write my first comment. This have more to do with "Paulogia" remark concerning the infamous "TESTIMONIUM FLAVIANUM". Most scholars (as with me) agree this was a later christian interpolation, as Josephus was known to explain his character in great detail so the reader understood such as Jesus ben Aanias). Something Josephus would not do as he lived and died a Jew. But this is minor, compared to who first reported this passage. No earlier historian or theologian like Irenenus, Tretullian heard of this passage. Both Jerome and Orgien both did extensive work of Josephus writings and they never once mention this passage and as compelling as it is you would think they would have. It was not until Eusebius of Caesarea that we first hear of this passage (4th century c.e) and he write extensively about. It was further mention in christian writings some 600 -1000 years later. We can continue the point, but it gets rather long and evolved.
I believe that "Jesus: the man did exist and was executed for seditious treason against the Roman state (as per Tacitus). The Sanhedrin had the authority (and they used it) for strictly religious crimes such as "Blasphemy", they did not need Roman approval and the normal punishment was stoning not crucifixion. Crucifixion was a Roman punishment used for crimes against the state. Jesus incited rebellion during the Passover and Pontius Pilate was going to have nothing to do with it , he needed ordered in Jerusalem. As for the resurrection etc, you would think Tacitus was have further stated "Oh by the way, he rose from the grave" in his passage., he didn't not a word. One would think, walking zombies, eclipse of the sun etc would be noteworthy even to Jewish historians of the period like Philo of Alexandria.
Closing; people need to read history, correlate the evidence, and then make judgement not take one partial fact and say "looky looky it's true". To Eric and crew the evidence it not with you, it only shows that Jesus may have existed, but was not any God as you would like for him to be.
furether reading: earlychurchhistory.org/communication/the-testimonium-flavianum-question-my-two-cents/
Well said!!
@@honorquest "Looky Looky it's true." :-D
Great gag, I think I'm gonna carve it on a handle of my cherry pickaxe...
Here we have an alleged God, that has no more historical record or archeological evidence than other heroes and stories from ancient times. And Zeus still has his Omphalos stone in a museum, and Hercules is also mentioned by Flavius Josephus...
I would imagine that a real God could have done it infinitely better than that...
The Pillars of Hercules can be found at the Strait of Gibralter. Check mate Hercules deniers.
@@daverobson3084 true, but, spaghetti Bolognese proves the *FSM.* Checkmate Herculists!
@@magnuspeacock5857
Never looked at it that way. Guess I fold.
Life and consciousness are such incredible things, as well as the immensity of the universe and all the energy and matter that exist. It’s sort of impossible to leave God out of this equation. But it’s quite obvious that God is something very different from the anthropomorphized patron elder of a Bronze Age community like we see described in the Bible. The position that modern Christians take where they make it out like their religion is the only true religion is just so ridiculous. All cultures in the world have felt compelled to understand the unseen forces and try to figure out the meaning of their existence. We live in a time where we can set aside all these ancient myths and just take a pragmatic and sober look at life. It Is an age of science and we’ve accomplished incredible things. It seems obvious to me that God has afforded us the freedom to do as we please in that respect. He doesn’t impose on us nor does he intervene in our affairs, it’s a situation it seems, where we’ve been given this physical existence to make of it what we can. And that each individual can take all the time that he needs to accomplish whatever he came here to accomplish and in the end it all doesn’t matter because it’s all an illusion and there’s no such thing as time. Who says you can’t have fun while you evolve?Ha ha au revoir Christianity, your services are no longer needed!
@@robbes7rh amen!
Tim and Eric! Awesome Show? Great...job?
Very interesting information.
Good stuff, man. It occurred to me near the end of the video that we have equally weighty historical evidence for the rebirth of Osiris, in Plutarch's summary of the Egyptian myths and rites. If Josephus is sufficient to credit the Gospels, Plutarch is sufficient to credit the Book of the Dead.
No apologist, of any religion, ever seems to get that 🤔
And apparently the 'tomb of Osiris' has been found.
Copy and paste from Google lol Sounds like the voice of experience there, Hammie.
Obviously i don't get into debates with other atheists about theistic topics to often (so i cant speak to how often atheists do this), but quite often i catch theist i talk to straight copy and pasting theistic sources and trying to pass them off on their own, an experience im sure many atheists here have shared.
@@__Andrew they usually paraphrase a pascals wager or a terrible version of intelligent design with a hint of kalam cosmological argument. if they actually copy pasted something i'd be more impressed. sadly, I'm usually the one who will google and copy paste, but i'll only copy paste their own bible for quicker reference to it. Matt5:18, Leviticus 25 are my most copied and a slew of Genesis passages depending on the topic. sometimes just showing them the ridiculous nature of the bible inside the topic usually gets them to just disappear to a different thread? or just recede further into their cognitive dissonance... so I like just planting the seeds of truth and hope they grow.
Im not talking about referencing things, or bible passages, but rather _entire_ arguments. Whole paragraphs that are passed off as their own argument without a hint that it was meant to be a quote. Even to the extent where i have had some change certain parts of a massive paragraph (like swapping out nouns) in order to pass it off as their own argument.
One of my favorites was i got into an argument with a "pastor" (i dont think he actually was official) from Australia. About half way through i realize he was copy and pasting to me so i tracked it down to a website that he ran. He was copy and pasting his own arguments he made there back at me. Which was sort of shifty since it wasn't genuine but _THEN_ i dug even further and found out that that segments of his webpage was plagiarized from _another_ apologist that had no ties whatsoever to the pastor i was in a discussion with. I then went through and found _multiple_ areas of his website that was plagiarized from one source or another and was passed off as the pastors own arguments without a hint of recognition that he was simply "quoting" someone else. Needless to say i soon lost contact with this pastor.
@@__Andrew I see. Thank you for laying it out. That's pretty sad. But I have to wonder if the 'pastor' and probably others, understand proper credit given. . After all, a public web site is wide open to checking just as you did.
As a professional geologist, I can understand that "lay people" need to copy in scientific material. They can't do original studies. And many arguments need to be carefully structured to stand up. But there should be proper citation. What irks me more though is that I'm pretty sure these people do not really understand what they are putting out there. I'm not saying one needs a degree. But these Christians should do some hard work to get the context and options. Just trying to pass is sort of lying. We know Christians don't want to do that lol
*But I have to wonder if the 'pastor' and probably others, understand proper credit given*
I gave him the opportunity to explain himself on that point, but he never did. Nothing about the structure of his webpage gave any hint that it was meant to _quote_ someone else rather than steal his work (i so wish i remembered the link to that website, but i think it was 2 computers ago and the only saved stuff i have is from a Yahoo comment section lol).
But he ran some sort of online ministry that was almost like a poor man's AiG. The articles he "wrote" had his name and face attached and nowhere did he mention where he actually got the work from. And im not talking like a few sentences here and there, it was entire paragraphs making probably about 90% of his work. I even double checked and i could not find the original authors name anywhere on the "pastor's" web page nor any connection professionally between the two. It would be like if i stole whole sections from Talk Origins and put them under my own website as if they were my own words lol.
*As a professional geologist*
lawl, right now im talking to a guy on another video that claims the rock formation Ron Wyatt found in Turkey was the actual Ark from Noah. I keep telling him that geologist who look at Wyatt's claim keep shooting them down as just being rocks but he wont listen lol.
*What irks me more though is that I'm pretty sure these people do not really understand what they are putting out there*
Totally agreed. It's like the number of people that quote Hovind on carbon dating when in reality Hovind is just quoting some other guy who did a paper in the late 1970's that has been debunked time and time again. And if i ever get into some scientific debate and i dont know what we are talking about i rightfully bow out if i cant do the research on it myself and understand it. I rather admit my ignorance then to dishonestly pretend i know what im talking about.
"GENERALLY a skeptical person would avoid absolute statements on any topic". Pretty well said and self-consistent.
Awesome video. By the way, I hoped to find, in the description, better sources for watching the claims made by Zeitgeist since I thought they were true and valid. Please send me some video links. I will be glad.
This question annoys me. The Jesus described in the Bible, *DID NOT* exist. Period. There was no man who walked on water, raised the dead, rose from the dead, etc. This weak-ass "Well, there might have been *SOMEONE* ..." is ridiculous. Jesus was God and existed as described in the Bible or he didn't. If he had, we would have concurrent writings about him.
So he was cooked up at the first council of Nicea so Rome to control the populace?
Johnny V
Did I say that? Nope. What I said is that apologists - and many atheists - are defending the existence of a person who in no way fits the biblical description of Jesus. It's like saying that Paul Bunyan exists because there are stories about a man with an ox.
@@commonsense5494 john appleseed was real did he literally planted apple trees from shore to no
lucifaeris' life and stuff
And we have concurrent writings about him. (Actually John Chapman) He also isn't claimed to be god or have performed miracles.
@@commonsense5494 the fact is i used a real person to illustrate that even normal people can have extraordinary things written about them. And yes extraordinary things were attributed to John Chapman like going into the forest and mysteriously seeing a bunch of apple trees people would say all that was john chapman. He was mythicized to explain Native American Apple Groves.
The fact is historians have taken for granted many people in history that honestly has no evidence for other than the fact that in their absence the history wouldn't make sense.
Is it my ears or does Hovind Jr actually say he spent the best five years of his life in a fourth *_grader?!?_* At approx 2:45, just after Hovind Sr's joke
Mark Doldon
Huh, perhaps I'm just a humorless dolt but I don't find that sort of "joke" funny. Especially considering the issues we've had with churches and child molestation.
Personally, I think it's *_far_* more likely he misspoke while trying to steal his dad's material (just as he's done with the majority of the material he makes use of) rather than decided to crack a joke about being inside a fourth grader in the middle of his church service.
EDIT: Interesting, either my phone is messing up or Mr Doldon decided to delete his comment. No worries, I have a copy of it in my notifications:
Mark Doldon wrote:
That's what makes it a JOKE
Just after the other dude says he likes 4th graders, just felt slimy coming from him, both actually.
I actually asked that question when I was a (for want of a much better word) believer. The non-answer helped me walk away.
Mischievous!!! I don’t think I need to explain anything before this sentence. You already know what I mean. Thank you.
Paul, can you do more fact checking on biblical historicity? Thanks.
What part is not factual?
Most of it.
Head over to Project Gutenberg and check out John E Remsburg's _The Bible_ and _The Christ._ The only thing he got wrong (it was thought to be valid when he wrote it) was saying the names of the patriarchs in the OT corresponded to those of Babylonian kings.
@@bdf2718 enforce it's reliability
One hundred twenty-fourth
Shannon Q better late than never?
All the numbers need some love every now and then.
Is that the number of lies a Hovind can tell in one minute?
@U♋Y Dexedrine, kids!
@U♋Y
Wooly mammoth
Burning bush
Fries with that
No, sorry I don't know how to do it but you keep up the fight... Or whatever it is.
2:28 is pure gold! Yep. Thallus is one long telephone game.
💚 *quality content* 💚
As always! 😁
thanks, owl
I'm 6'7. Can I pose to have my likeness done as a giant? So far I've only done work that turned me into a fairy king.
😂😂😂
At 2 minutes and 43 seconds did Eric say I spent the best 5 years of my life in 4th grader ???
Sounds like a Freudian slip.
eproulx, he did but it’s a thing his daddy says. It’s a bad joke being shared by dumb people.
@@jasonlueker3032 Please re-read my message but look at the last letter of the word before the question marks. Freudian slip.
In this case, I will accept the literal meaning of the spoken word.
Of course, because he likes fucking children.
@@jeffc5974 Just come right out and say it.
Love that clip from Labryinth. Seems the boys forgot to wash up after a trip to the Bog of Eternal Stench😂!
Asking this question was the first step in my rejection of supernatural beliefs.
A perfect being gives this guy a speech impediment !!!
What is he to learn from it, though? Humility? Courage? Overcoming shame? Or did his parents need to learn something? Or were they being punished?
I guess the perfect being didn't say upon delivery. Free will to choose here.
Im late to the comments but Sure apparently Moses also had a speech impairment, one of his excuses why he shouldn't be the one to lead Gods people out on Egypt.
Moses was the orginal heroes journey character in a way.
Jesus according to the scriptures was also nothing to look @.
Do you think the poisons and the different drugs that parents take don't mess with the genetics and than pass on to the kids? Well since it does , who's than at fault that the kid is born with down syndrome.
Maybe it makes me a bad person, but i could stand the way he shpeaksh
"Are there authentic secular writings about Jesus? "
Does it matter?
The question is: is there any evidence for any of the miracles the Bible claims Jesus did?
If Jesus didn't exist, kind of hard for him to perform miracles, right?
It matters if you want to get into historicity, but that's still a separate matter from whether or not he was who he claimed, or could do the things claimed of him.
@Larry Cavalli "what they don't say is the earliest form of today's Gospels, didn't have as many miracles in them."
Not as many miracles? There is no reason to believe any miracles happened.
You should look up& read the Jefferson Bible. Thomas Jefferson re-wrote the new testament but edited out all the references to supernatural events such as miracles including the resurrection.
Yes, there are. The early christians Tertullian and Justin Martyr wrote about acts created under Pontius Pilate. These acts supposly told about Jesus healed disabled people, blind, lame, etc. and raised the dead. Pliny the younger wrote that these early christians we’re trustworthy. They wouldn’t lie and all gentile sources say basically the same. If these „scholars“ do not research well then I do not know.
@@EHonda-ds6ve "The early christians Tertullian and Justin Martyr wrote about acts created under Pontius Pilate. These acts supposly told about Jesus healed disabled people, blind, lame, etc. and raised the dead. "
And those are the claims that no one is showing any evidence for.
"Pliny the younger wrote that these early christians we’re trustworthy."
What's your point?Allthat proves is that Christians exist. No one doubts that Christians exist.
"They wouldn’t lie and all gentile sources say basically the same."
They are reporting what they have been told. So what? They didn't see any of the miracles themselves. At best we have second, third, & fourth hand accounts.
"If these „scholars“ do not research well then I do not know."
If someone tells them n event happened& they make a record of what they have been told happened,it is not research.
Today,you can find people who will tell you that they had been abducted by aliens. This is a claim directly from he mouth of the claimant....would you believe their claim?
There was a notable man, of great influence, who was born in 20 BCE and died in 50 CE. He wrote extensively on all things Jerusalem. The world of the "Jew" was his jam. His family had direct ties to the Temple in Jerusalem, and to the priesthood. He is known as "Philo of Alexandria" and was said to belong to the wealthiest family in the world. Philo was a prolific writer, who wrote about the mundane as well as the extraordinary. He was so thorough that he once published a report about a Beggar in Jerusalem being harassed by its youth. It's fair to say Philo didn't miss much.
In addition, Philo never spoke of Jesus, his ministry, or his miracles. He never discussed the stoning of Stephen or the persecution of Christians by Saul. Apparently, Philo had no idea that Jesus had 12 merry men, and many more who followed him. In like fashion, Philo neglected to say a word about the trial of Jesus, the crucifixion of Jesus, the resurrection of the saints flooding into the streets of Jerusalem or the Temple curtain being torn in two. So, what did we hear from Philo? Nothing, nada, not one peep. It's inconceivable that Philo would have missed the opportunity to report on these events, had they actually occurred.
Thank you.
Kent: "Spent the best 5 years of my life in the 4th grade!"
Eric: "Spent the best 5 years of my life *in a fourth grader*"
Unfortunate slip in light of Catholicism today.
Thanks, for the well cooked breakfast ham Paul! At this rate , Trichinosis will be eradicated.
*a pack of wolves look longingly down at a pig farm*
*One wolf turns to the others and says,*
_I say we go for it, and trichinosis be damned!_
The Far Side :)
@@munstrumridcully fun fact, you can also get it from dog and Bear. 😂
@@larryscarr1929 I never knew that! Ya learn something new every day :)
@@munstrumridcully Gota know hat ya can eat when the zombies show up😂
@@larryscarr1929 lmao! The zombiepocalypse is inevitable! :)
Haha, Tim and Eric huh?
Great job!
@Paulogia0 It is good to have video links at the end, but they don’t work for people Chrome-casting, so maybe you should include those links in your video notes along with the other references
there pepole alive today that belive certain, recently dead or still living individuals are gods. so i really dont see any credit in that argument, Eric. Just because the text is old dosent make it more belivable. i say it makes it less, since any jack ass could just make up stuff, because fact checking, wich is rare today wasent around then.
Yeah. And fact checking today is dubious at best
Snake oil salesmen (fast talking A-holes) another great veido 💯👍💙
Betteridge's Law of Headlines tends to apply to apologist TH-cam video / podcast titles as well.
Betteridge wrote a law of headlines and you won't believe what it said! >:)
On a different topic, what is that intro music? I quite like it and would like to get it from somewhere :)
Anybody notice that when Eric parroted the best 5 years of my life in 4th grade he says "spent the best 4 years of my life in a 4th grader." Obvious blending of 2 phrases in the head, but holy shit it was funny.
Thank you for this post. I do wonder if Eric Hovind enjoys telling lies. I will be making videos soon and Eric will be a person of interest.
Tweet me the link when it's up.
I bet he considers untruth in the service of his god is not telling "lies".
Paulogia will do.
@@rowannieuport3942 : Eusebius did. He is quoted as such.
@@RobertTempleton64 Hehe, so did Stalin's Vyshinski, his master of ceremonies over his show trials in the 1930s, condemning the guilty out of hand. Anything done in the name of the State is morally acceptable, you betcha. When i read Eusebius in college years ago, that was always going through my mind. He was a tool of the state-sponsored religion, and cut corners on the field of justice and truth.
AIG should have a Frequently Questioned Answers!
20:43 What were the odds? As I watch this video, this movie plays on my TV.
Also what is the original clip at 17:36 from?
Tim and Eric Awful Show. Great Job!
free real estate?
I've actually never seen that show, but that joke absolutely had to be made.
I wanted to comment. But I don't know what to say. Enjoyed the video as always.
Good video. You would think that they would have more references given the "mighty works" he performed.
My first ad was for a Pureflix film staring Kevin Sorbo
The most underappreciated channel on YT.
30,000 subs.. really? REALLY??
Good job, Paul. One thing: it's not likely that Tacitus would have thought "Christ" was a title- it doesn''t mean anything in Latin, and "anointed" only makes sense as a title in a Jewish context. Even Paul (the other one) uses "Jesus Christ" almost as though it were a proper name.
Just a quick question.
Could the reference in Tacitus’ writings to ‘Crestus’ be referring to the cult of Serapis Chrestus?
18:55 I highly recommend reading this source, The Death of Peregrinus, and Lucian's work in general. It's pretty funny and shows that skepticism towards the supernatural isn't just a modern invention!
Paulogia, what church were you a youth minister in?
If you ever do talk with Eric can you make a stipulation about keeping comments and like/dislikes open?
I really look forward to these videos!
I don't really know if Eric will accept your invitation... A conversation is much riskier than a debate.
In a debate, all he needs to do is to come prepared with a fixed set of "gotcha" points.
He started it.
Thanks, Sci.
Hey Paul, I myself lost my taste for religion very young however there is much stress in my relationship with my mother who has returned to the faith she was raised in. Mormonism, no matter how much I point out the flaws in her belief system she becomes totally insane refusing to listen. How do you handle your friends and family who are still practising Christians?
P.S. Just found your channel important work you do thank you. Subbed
Tawnja Halstead - It depends on the person. You can try to find an agreement not to talk about the topic and accept that the other has another stand point. If they insist on evangelizing you it gets more complicated.
Could not find the link you mentioned will be in the description at 5:50. Could you like please ?
Paul, in the video you said you would include to links to sources that make arguments akin to Zeitgeist but better, and I don't see any such links.
The link is to The Bible Skeptic and Godless Engineers channels
5:51 - (on 2007's Zeitgeist) "There are more academic presentations of the content elsewhere; see the description for some suggestions."
Would've loved to see the suggestions.
When your mom says you have Tim & Eric at home.
#GreatJob!
I was told there would be movies/videos better than zeitgeist in the description or something where? (5:45)
For additional viewing the channel Milwaukee Atheists did a great video called "Josephus On Jesus" if anyone here has not seen it already. It's one of the best historical and contextual breakdown of Jospehus's writings on Jesus that i have seen.
Excellent critique of supposed secular sources - none of them establishing any further proof of a Jesus that performed miracles or rose from the dead.. So we’re back to the “because the Bible tells me so”… A very satisfying jingle by the way..
Re the Josephus passage. Circa 1975 while studying Koine Greek, I looked up a book in the university library containing Josephus' writings with an English translation on the opposite page. That passage was missing from the Greek and in a footnote the editor noted that it first appears in an Old Church Slavonic (the ancestor of Russian as Latin is to Italian) translation of Josephus and appears to have been inserted by a monk. Wikipedia says that such translations in Old Church Slavonic happened around the 9th Century. Unfortunately, I cannot remember over 40 years back for the title of that book.