Excellent comparison. I have been stopping on Venev’s 400 grit and stropping from there. It seems to give me a great edge with minimal effort. Thank you for another great video.
Right on. They are good stones, I just really tend to avoid them. What they do, they do well. However, they are soulless, like Shapton Glass. Feedback is terrible, and they just feel like sharpening on ceramics. The higher in grit you go, the worse it gets. Still, for splash n go, low fuss, and low maintenance, you can't go wrong with them. There just happens to be, another option, I would go with :)
Have you gotten your Venev stones yet? I really love mine but as he said they are soulless they have no feed back to speak off past the F240 and even them its hardly any. However they are great stones they really are. My venev and naniwa bonded diamond stones do about 90% of my sharpening just because they are no fuss stones that you spray water on and get to work and your going to get excellent results on all steels if you do your part. I have family in Russia and had them get me custom stones made by Poltava in 3x8 inch Metallic bonded cbn they was expensive but not that bad with them getting them direct (my cost was 205 dollars a stone and had 10 stones made.) This stones will last me forever and pay for then selves in no time sharpening customers knives with no maintenance required except a etch when they slow down cutting do a quick acid etch and bingo they are back to new no wear, no dishing, no flattening, personally I like the way cbn cuts over diamond. Yes I still lack feed back but that is worth all the up sides.
Great video Jef ! Really interesting how both sets of stones had really comparable edge results. I think my next stone purchase will be the venev’s Thanks for sharing brother 👊
The Suehiro LD-21 180# is also an amazing Coarse stone. It's a bit pricier than the Shapton but at the same time a much thicker stone. Such a good cutter and great feedback also.
That came out really nice. The scratch patterns were pretty similar. Really close to my eyes. I think this will help a lot of people that have one set figure out what they want to buy in the other brand. I think a lot of people would skip the 100/120 stone. Especially if they have a very coarse diamond plate.
Yea it was really close to my eyes as well. My camera scope makes it so hard to get clean pics. I need to get a new setup, I've just got a hundred other things going on, it never comes up when I am spending money. The 100/120 is actually one of my preferred stones. I use that one at work (in the small 4 inch format) for my machete. It removes chips and things well enough, and I can hold it in the palm of my hand as I sharpen the blade. I have noticed it glazes after a few, intense sessions, and really, slows down.
@@whocares3986 hmm. Did I do a comparison with those two sets? I can't recall. No I do not think Venev are on the same level as Gritomatic Sic. The sic are coarser, and faster. I'd imagine the scratch pattern on the 2500 grit sic would be comparable to maybe the 700 grit (20/14 micron) Venev. I'd have to do a side by side to be certain, but I think, they'd be pretty close. The 2500 sic, is still pretty coarse, and does not produce, a bright finish. You can get there with a strop, but the stone itself, just doesn't produce it.
@@whocares3986 Yup. I'd like to see a unified rating, myself. Be it micron abrasive size, or some other choice. So long as, everyone, got on the same page. 1k American water stones are not the same as a 1k Japanese stones. There are charts, showing the different ratings, and micron sizes, floating around the webs. Do a google search for it, if you don't have one yet :)
Jeff, I have most of the Venev diamond stones but I have never seen the 100/120 on gritomatic website. Where did you get the 100/120? I would love to add that one to my collection. I have the 100/240 and I am in love with the 100 side. Really moves metal.
Interesting video and great results with your manual sharpening! I wonder how long Venev stones are going to remain available, with the "Special Military Operation" and such.
Speaking with Konstatine, he stated supply lines would come and go, and stock may be disrupted, but they are gong to do all they can, to keep things moving. Obviously nothing can be predicted at this point, but it sounded like they were prepping plans for that possibility.
If you can't get them from gritomatic just order then from Hapstone, shipping takes about 2-3 weeks but their prices are lower then gritomatic by a fair bit and shipping is cheap. Hapstone always has stock.
Will the shapton pro stones sharpen steels like cru wear, rex 45, k390, m390, magnacut, elmax, s110v, 15v, you know what im saying the super steels, the steels traditionally considered hard to sharpen. I guess my question is…..i know you should use diamond stones of some type for those steels…..but, will the pro stones still sharpen some if those steels even if it takes a long time. And obviously i realize some it will sharpen better than others, But what are your thoughts on it??
The lower grits will sharpen some of those steels, but it isn't ideal. Can they do it? Sure. Once you get to around 800-1k, you are going to see a very noticeable decrease in the stone cutting. Some of those steels, won't even get past 320. In all instances, I would refer you to gritomatic silicone carbide. Many will argue till blue in the face, about how sic does not cut carbides. As I have said a thousand times. I will take the pepsi challenge any day they want to go at it with their diamonds against me and my sic. However, I would be doing you a disservice if I did not mention diamonds. They aren't just for flattening my sic stones. No sir, the Venev resin bonded stones, are A+ in my book. They sharpen, and polish. Neat thing is, you don't have to argue with everyone who has an opinion, about carbide tearout. They see you on diamonds, and keep it moving ;) Seriously though, gritomatic sic stones, or venev diamond, would be my 2 recommendation, for sharpening those steels. You really do need a good abrasive, to get those at peak performance. Alum Ox just isn't going to cut. If you care to watch, I have several videos showing stones cut high carbide steels. I'll try to link one or two, but I don't advertise them. Just an invitation to an argument I don't care to have, ya know? comparing shapton vs venev th-cam.com/video/dpL27pYhL-Y/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared having issues with a cpm custom heat treat th-cam.com/video/-1_TeduIut0/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared s90v - King, and Suehiro Cerax th-cam.com/video/-1_TeduIut0/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared I am sure there are more but that is just a quick glance. If you want to see gritomatic in action just search my channel for them. Tons of videos doing many steels.
Thanks!! Yeah I saw one of your vids trying to do that. Yeah I have seen not only you but others do the sic stones to sharpen hard steels, so i truly believe you. I think most people who argue that stuff have never personally tried it and seen results, they just arguing what they heard. I will have to pick up a couple of the sic stones, i just read about them and it lists off almost every single steel i asked you about above lol!! I ordered a bunch of stones recently because I just got a few spydercos and i ordered a hogue, and a demko. So I ordered I think 4 of the shapton pro stones cuz my other waterstones are the cheap amazon crap, and i have a couple cheap diamond plate stones. But then i was going to order a few centaur venev stones and i didnt like the 1 inch width, i mean its small watching it on video, so I went another route altogether……I found the naniwa diamond resin stones on sale, 20% off, so i bought 3 of the smaller ones, 5.5 x 3 inches. I think i ordered 400, 1000, 3000…….so those should work amazingly, then my next purchase will be the gritomatics. Thanks for all the info and linking me the other vids. I appreciate you man!!
I hear those Naniwa are top notch. They are what everyone else compares to. So you should have a damn fine set up with that. Let me know if you think about it, how they perform. Would be interested to hear your opinion
@@Jefthanks man!! I will! I might even make a quick vid with them and link you to it or something!! Thanks for your help, your suggestions, and your vids!!! Love what you are doing man!!
Very interesting. I have the Phoenix series of Venevs in 240/400 and 800/1200. Yours looked like the Dragon series. Did you find with your Venevs a period of break in before the diamonds got more exposed and started cutting better? Thanks!
@@MichaelE.Douroux I got a video showing the process. I used pretty coarse grits, and left the surfaces pretty rough. th-cam.com/video/shrzw51Vwlw/w-d-xo.html
Yup gunny juice is actually decent. Others have told me it’s very aggressive but i haven’t found that to be the case. I have been using it on balsa but did add it to some leather recently. So far i prefer the balsa
For a customer, or one of my nicer knives, I'll eliminate the chip. But usually, I'll leave it and plan on eliminating it around 4 sharpenings down the road. If I chipped a knife it's usually one I use hard anyway, so I wouldn't want to remove so much steel just to chip it again.
That is not a bad philosophy. The problem I have with leaving chips, in my line of work, is that they grow. Then I must remove even more steel. It's a balancing act, and the reason I stopped using my MUDD knife, at work. I had sharpened it so many times, I was afraid the steel lose, would start to show. My collection is huge, so it is easy enough to rotate through many. I recently (i say recent, it has been almost a year now) got a custom lineman splicing knife made. Since I received it, most cutting tasks at work, is achieved using it.
@@Jef I was thinking about asking if you carried more than one knife lol. It's rare that I chip a knife I really like. But one thing I've done is turn a chip into a small scallop/serration. Literally sharpened the chip with a rod!!! Lol. The chip didn't grow from there and was gone 4-5 sharpenings down the road. I wonder, because I removed all the immediate damaged steel and put a clean (almost polished) bevel around the contour of the chip, did I drastically reduce the chances of the chip growing? Lol, an interesting thought.
@@oceanwaves83 Interesting question. I may have to try that out next time I get one, and see what happens :D As for knives, if at work, I carry that linesman's knife, plus two additional. Usually a side opening auto in the 3.5 inch range, and something smaller.
About the same. Cant tell any difference, other than the fact, venev will cut steels, shapton wont. Its more about technique than stones, when it comes to edge sharpness
Thoose venev looks really good. How do you like them against your gritomatic stones? I want some stones that can do my harder steels more easy like m390 or high hardness magnacut and niolox and such
Man Gritomatic are among my top tier stone sets. They fight Shapton Pro for that spot, only bc they sharpen any steel. After those two, Venev come in 3rd. Again, bc they can sharpen any steel. If you want an analog, I find them similar to Spyderco Ceramics(in terms of feedback/feel). They are soulless, like Shapton Glass; again, low feedback, and feel like sharpening on glass. The lower grits, you can feel the bite of steel and stone, but around 700 grit, that feeling is replaced with glassy, glossy, glaze. For that reason, they do not hold my top position. However, they would be near the bottom of my list, like most diamonds, if it weren't for the fact they wear so slow, splash n go, and require almost no maintenance. On occasion, they do like a surface conditioning. Esp the lower grits. Otherwise, they get glazed, and cut very slow, considering how coarse they are meant to be.
@@knifesharpeningnorway I'd hate to say yes, and then you find out you hate them. However, yes! That is my recommendation. Do keep in mind, I tend to go against the grain, when it comes to many things sharpening. In real true honesty, there is nothing the Sic and Vid stones can do, the other can't. It is really all about the feedback, and speed. For me, the sic win hands down in that dept.
@@knifesharpeningnorway Yea I have always said the 240, 1k and 2.5k gritomatic sic is all that is needed. Anything else is just filler. The 240 will reprofile and remove steel at an incredible rate. The other two can refine that down. If you want finer, then other stones will be needed. The 2.5k is a good, toothy edge. For kitchen cutlery, you may want more. I liked the 8k Suehiro g8 stone. I'd heard from so many, that it is sic, and then others state, it is something else. Either way, it sharpened Maxamet. If it can do that, it can handle any steel I will throw at it. Plus, the polish is nice. Not super reflective, but a strop, or two, afterwards, will get ya there.
My only gripe with venevs is they cut so damn slowly…. What’s the point of diamond abrasives if they’re slow? Still, they last forever so that’s good. I want some vitrified diamond stones.
If you condition the surface, they cut decently. Still not as fast as many other stones. True diamond plates can be fast, but that also means they remove more material than you may want/or need. There is always a trade off somewhere. I've tried some of those vitrified diamond stones. Like diamond plates, they are too fast, imo, and remove too much material. I'd prefer something like venev over them, any day. Which is why you don't see them on my channel
Yes I actually like Gunny Juice. Like all diamond stropping compounds though, I think it is over priced. I can get the same, if not better results, from plain old white compound. That said, if diamond is your choice, I'd go with the stuff triple b sells first (knife house diamond spray), and maybe gunny second.
When i first discovered chosera, they were my favorites. After a few months, every stone from 1k to 10k started to develop cracks. I took care of my stones, i know how to dry them properly etc. after speaking with MANY other users, who also experienced the same thing, i quit using them. I contacted the company about it and was completely blown off. That being said, chosera are bottom of my list. Id rather sharpen on a sidewalk, than spend money on any naniwa product. What are my feelings between the two? Gritomatic are leaps and bounds better. Cheaper. Cut any steel. They may not polish as well, but they don’t crack. 👍
Sorry I saw the white stone, and thought I misspoke, and labeled them incorrectly in the video. I did have the correct names in the description. They are the Shapton Pro stones. The Shapton Glass are all white stones, and have a glass back, that helps prevent warping. The Pro stones, as seen in this video, are multi colored, and do not have any backing.
Tungsten carbide? Woo wee what are you sharpening? lol. For that stuff, diamond? Hell I've never had the pleasure so I am assuming. For most high carbide steels I prefer Gritomatic Silicone carbide. After that, Venev. I get better results, esp on Maxamet. with SIC.
@@rustyknifelover4463 Ahhh I got a buddy who has a couple of those. He was supposed to send me one, to sharpen and fool around with, but never did. If memory serves, stropping with diamond, was his best result. Using any sort of stone, caused serious apex damage. That including diamond resin from a few sources.
I use diamond film on glass blanks to sharpen any sandrin knives. You will have to order diamond film from overseas as no one here that I know of sells it in the larger micron sizes you will need. You can get 9 micron and less from statesllc here in the US and that eill serve you if you just want to touch up an edge or do very slight micro bevels that are say .5 degree or so higher then the previous bevel but that will only work for a couple sharpens before you start getting to steep of angles and cutting performance suffers. However with diamond compound stropping you can keep each edge going for a very long time. But once you need a full sharpening that's why you have to have courses films, I order 200um, 100um, 80um, 40um, 20um and 9um. If you try to use a diamond plate or resin bonded diamond you will have chipping 100%. The diamond films will cause it slightly in the 200 and 100um size but only slightly and isn't a issue as your profiling the edge to where you want it. Once you reach the 80um film you will not have any chipping what so ever. Do not use edge trailing strokes only edge leading until you are under 80um edge trailing will deff cause chipping. Diamond film is not cheap, and it's prolly in your best interest to send your sandrin knives off to a professional sharpener like my self who has worked with it before and has the correct abrasives to do it. I personally do not enjoy sharpening it but not many professionals will touch it and a lot of people need it so I started accepting the work. I do charge more for it then I do steels as the diamond films wear very quickly and are very costly. It comes in 8x11.5 sheets and I cut it to 2x5.75 and stick it to 2 inch thick 2x6 inch float glass that I had cut for me. This gives me a dead flat surface to work with. If you took anything from this, do not try to sharpen it on anything but diamond film or you will quickly get in trouble. If you try to sharpen it on diamond plates one pass is gonna cause fractures all over the apex. It's an extremely fickle material, it's impressive no doubt but very very fickle and requires a very specific abrasive setup in order to be able to sharpen it.
The one thing missing in this vid that interested me the most, is the actual feel or your thoughts of the feel between the two types of stones. I really dislike some of my diamond plates and really dislike the very fine grits of the different ceramic stones. Just not a good feed back for me. I'm retired now after 47 years of custom knife making. Oddly enough, I have one of the first production runs of the DMT stones (fine grit at the time. 1970's ifrc. It still cuts well after literally thousand's of knives being sharpened on it. From back in the day, 440-c, 154-cm, 154-cpm, D2, Vasco Wear, ( now called crew wear) Steelite K-6 and now M390, 20cv, M-4 and cpm s90v. It is much finer now, as it has gone from the original 6-700 apx. 1200 grit. LOL. Still no bald spots on it. Sure wish the still make them like they use to. (Old age talking). It cost more back in the 70's than the new ones do today. Probably would be in the 400 usd to 500 usd at todays prices. It was a hard pill to swallow back then just starting full time knife making. It was made from wo thick blocks of Lexan bonded together, and a 3/16" bottom plate for locking into place and an interrupted stainless and plated diamond surface. Heavy, and very flat. My knives were always made for using, but sadly in a way, became highly collected with stupid high prices. (Heck, no way I could even afford one of my own knives today). which brings me to my #1 gripe with all the sharpening vid's getting so much attention these days. Most go to very high polished edges. I would suspect because it looks good and impresses. I did the same for years at knife show's for for a different reason. I got tired of people picking up my knives and inevitably seeing if they would shave arm hair and proceeding to bleed all over my table cloth. Sure use to use a lot of super glue on people. LOL! So I learned to put a very high mirror polish on the edge that sliced paper and shave hair like a straight razor. It just didn't have enough bit in it to be so dayumed dangerous to touch. Polished edges are impressive for push cuts and people love to show how well they cut paper. Issue is, almost no push cutting with a knife is actually used in actual cutting in every day things that need a knife to be used. Sure a polished edge cuts cardboard wit a push cut and feels good. And it seems every sharpness test is a push cut. However, a fully polished ultra sharp edge never last very long at all. such an edge is virtually useless for anything other than impressing onlookers. Fantastic for vid's, show's and tv barkers. I'm getting to the point that I hate ever single vid maker slice a sheet of paper to prove how sharp his knife is. It is very misleading. It's gotten to the point that when the paper slicing starts, I find something else to watch. A very lightly stropped toothy edge can and will if done correctly give 300 to 400 percent more cuts than a polished edge. Imagine what I am finding with high vanadium steels with this technique. Unreal! Cedric for instance on his cutting test channel tried it, a compound toothy edge carried 154-cmp from just below 300 cuts to right at 1000 cuts before it would not cut typing paper cleanly. Which matches and passes 20cv. M-390, M-4 and almost any other super steel with the now so popular polished edge. My little Brothrr sent me a brand new Benchmade 940-1 in high vanadium s90v and I put it to the test. I was not impressed. I put my own style of edge on it and cut 200 cuts in cardboard, cleared a lot of small limbs both dead and alive here on the property, another 100 cuts in cardboard, and another hour cutting limbs. (The trees here in this arid Texas area have a lot of silica in them and destroy edged quickly). The edge would still roughly shave and sliced paper, even phone book paper cleanly. A Huge difference. The factory edge couldn't make it thru 50 cuts of cardboard. bot a 20cv and M-390 blade wit a very well polished edge lost it at a little over 100 cuts on card board. Useless on the brush or a limb. But it looked nice! :
Quite a wall a text. 90% of my cut tasks are push cuts. I've got a video showing how they are used at work. I do not know if you are directing your comment towards me, or just in general. Since it is on my video, it feels like it has a target, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Assuming, you have no idea, that my knives, are used severely. On another note, I did not describe the 'feel' of these stones, because I have done so on each set, in several other videos. It's a bit difficult when making these videos, to think about someone unfamiliar with my channel, stumbling onto one, and making it all inclusive. That's on me, but if you are really curious, feel free to search my channel for Venev. If you want a condensed version here goes. I hate the feel. It is like sharpening on a piece of glass, or ceramic. Shapton pro rock, until you get to the 2k and higher. Then, they too, lose some feedback, and feel slippery, like glass/ceramic.
@@JefNo Sir! Not directed toward you at all. Just a comment on where I've watched the industry and how the products are used over the years. A LOT has changed. I can't think of much of any use for a push cut in what I use a knife for. I use them for cleaning game, cutting limbs, rope, pull ties of course, and a lot of tough work here on the property. About the only thing I use a push cut for is leather for no other reason than I love the feel of a keen blade passing thru the leather. Kinda soothing in a way. I was looking seriously at the new Venev type stones and had it in my mind that the matrix would give them a smooth or silky feel while sharpening. Something missing in the typical diamond stones. I use Diamond mostly because most of my blades are high in Vanadium and they work so much faster. Your assessment of the feel of the Venev is a disappointment and has me re-thinking which way I am going to go. I have DMT's that I've used for over 40 years and they are still doing a fine job. However, I keep hearing/reading that the quality is not what it use to be. Again, very disappointing. Thankyou for your in-depth look into sharpening for the users. Are the Shapton Pro's efficient for high Vanadium Steels? My main concern. I had not considered the Gritomatic SC stones mostly due to bad experiences with the old reliable Norton SC stones. I may have to try one out. Thank You. (Picked up you thoughts on the 90v bugout vid). Very well done vid's Sir! KnifeMaker/Retired.
Venev low grits do have a decent texture. For awhile. Like an oil stone, if you do not condition the surface, it will feel glazed. Also, like an oil stone, this slows the cutting speed. If you condition them with loose sic powder, it changes everything. They become much more alive. After several sharpening, maybe even one, with high vanadium steels, and you are right back where you started. The middle and higher grits really suffer from that ceramic feel. You can alter it to a degree, with conditioning, but they don’t take long to get that glazed feeling again. It is a shame, but every stone has it’s quirks. You just gotta figure out what you can deal with, and compromise. There are a few makers (very few) doing vitrified diamond stones, similar to venev. They have better texture and feedback. The down side is, the price. Expect to pay $3-600 per stone. The set i tried, went to 3k. Even at that grit, I was unable to get a super keen edge. The diamond was so aggressive, it would shave my apex right off. Personally, i hated them. Venev reigned superior bc they were slower, and allowed mistakes. Double edged sword there. Speed, is also one of the reasons, I’m not a huge fan of them. The slowness is beneficial in the example above, but can drive you mad, when you are trying to get 10 knives done in 45m or less. That circles me back to Gritomatic sic. I’ve used Norton, and approve of them, for heavy steel removal. However, if you want a finger edge, more refined, they are not your choice. The 240 Gritomatic sic, is finer than the Norton fine. It just gets better, and finer, from there. They have cut every steel I’ve placed against them. Faster than diamond. Feedback is among the best you’ll ever come across. Feel, sound, speed, cuts any steel. On top of it all, they go to 2500 grit. Which I’d compare to a 1-1.5k Shapton pro, in terms of edge feel. I can not recommend them enough. Coming from old school lines, I think you would enjoy them, but then you talk about diamond plates from dmt. That gives me pause. Diamond plates, in my experience, are the bottom of the barrel. I use them only when i need heavy removal. I hate everything about them. In your instance, I’d recommend just grabbing a 1k gritomatic sic and trying it. That way you are not out a ton of money, can try the stones for yourself, and the 1k is very versatile. Just coarse enough to remove minor damage, and fine enough for kitchen tasks, with toothy bite. They do wear (sic) and require a quick soak. I’ve found 5 min to be enough, for all mine. Longer does help, but it’s not required. I also coated mine in cashew lacquer, to help hold water. The 240, in particular, is thirsty and porous. They also benefit from loose sic conditioning. Esp out of the box. Gritomatic laps the surface really fine. I don’t understand why but there it is. They cut like shyt out of the box. Once you rough up the surface, they really change and come alive.
@@Jef Sorry for the late reply. I will order one of the Gritomatic sic's and give it a try. Thank you for your time in answering my questions. Now being disabled, both my wife and I as well, we no longer have the finances for me to go crazy testing different systems and why I was seeking your wisdom on the subject. KnifeMaker
@@Jef thank you for your replies Jef! I did get in a 400x800 Venev diamond matrix stone and am enjoying it. I found that a slightly heavier stroke edge trailing gives a feed back I like, while a very light edge leading stroke gives a very fine edge on the 800 side, but doesn't work on the 400 grit side. Awaiting a shipment from them as they are moving. I will try their SC as per your suggestion fairly shortly. this being disabled and forced retirement makes ordering what I want all at once a pita. So it has to be one item at a time. GRRRRRR! the reason I have so many dia. stones from the past, is the steels I used, Stelite 6k and Vasco Wear didn't do well with the stones available back then. (Early 70's). We were far from having anything like Ceramic stones or belts back then. I guess you could call it the Dark Ages for working exotic steels back then. My shop at the time was out side the Marshal Space Center in Huntsville and I had access to the most exotic metals in existence then and learned the advantages of diamond lapping from the people who ran the labs at some of the most advanced companies involved in the Space Shuttle projects. Sure wish I had access to such tech today. (One thing I really appreciate with the Venev product is they provide the Micron size. Like you, I wish the industry would provide this info across the board as the different ratings are all over the map and takes far too much research to really get a handle on how different makers products compare. Double GRRRRR+ PITA!!! KnifeMaker
Excellent comparison. I have been stopping on Venev’s 400 grit and stropping from there. It seems to give me a great edge with minimal effort. Thank you for another great video.
Right on. They are good stones, I just really tend to avoid them. What they do, they do well. However, they are soulless, like Shapton Glass. Feedback is terrible, and they just feel like sharpening on ceramics. The higher in grit you go, the worse it gets. Still, for splash n go, low fuss, and low maintenance, you can't go wrong with them. There just happens to be, another option, I would go with :)
Have you gotten your Venev stones yet? I really love mine but as he said they are soulless they have no feed back to speak off past the F240 and even them its hardly any. However they are great stones they really are. My venev and naniwa bonded diamond stones do about 90% of my sharpening just because they are no fuss stones that you spray water on and get to work and your going to get excellent results on all steels if you do your part. I have family in Russia and had them get me custom stones made by Poltava in 3x8 inch Metallic bonded cbn they was expensive but not that bad with them getting them direct (my cost was 205 dollars a stone and had 10 stones made.) This stones will last me forever and pay for then selves in no time sharpening customers knives with no maintenance required except a etch when they slow down cutting do a quick acid etch and bingo they are back to new no wear, no dishing, no flattening, personally I like the way cbn cuts over diamond. Yes I still lack feed back but that is worth all the up sides.
Great video Jef ! Really interesting how both sets of stones had really comparable edge results. I think my next stone purchase will be the venev’s Thanks for sharing brother 👊
Yea I knew the 5k was close. Just from my own experience. Interesting stuff for sure! Thanks for checking it out.
The Suehiro LD-21 180# is also an amazing Coarse stone. It's a bit pricier than the Shapton but at the same time a much thicker stone. Such a good cutter and great feedback also.
I have not seen that one. I will check into it! Thanks for the heads up 👊
I've never used the shaptons but I have a set of the venev stones and really like them. Enjoyed the video.
Oh wow I would have expected you'd have gotten ahold of some Shapton at this point. Esp after hearing my praise them in over 400 videos 😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣
@@Jef I was going to but after I started using tne venev stones I liked them so well I just stopped buying new stones.
@@jamesmiller360 Nothing wrong with that. Venev will last ya forever, and they sharpen every steel out there.
That came out really nice. The scratch patterns were pretty similar. Really close to my eyes. I think this will help a lot of people that have one set figure out what they want to buy in the other brand. I think a lot of people would skip the 100/120 stone. Especially if they have a very coarse diamond plate.
Yea it was really close to my eyes as well. My camera scope makes it so hard to get clean pics. I need to get a new setup, I've just got a hundred other things going on, it never comes up when I am spending money. The 100/120 is actually one of my preferred stones. I use that one at work (in the small 4 inch format) for my machete. It removes chips and things well enough, and I can hold it in the palm of my hand as I sharpen the blade. I have noticed it glazes after a few, intense sessions, and really, slows down.
@@Jef
Do you think the 50/40, 20\14, and 7\5 compare well to the Gritomatic 240, 1000, and 2500 too?
@@whocares3986 hmm. Did I do a comparison with those two sets? I can't recall.
No I do not think Venev are on the same level as Gritomatic Sic. The sic are coarser, and faster. I'd imagine the scratch pattern on the 2500 grit sic would be comparable to maybe the 700 grit (20/14 micron) Venev. I'd have to do a side by side to be certain, but I think, they'd be pretty close. The 2500 sic, is still pretty coarse, and does not produce, a bright finish. You can get there with a strop, but the stone itself, just doesn't produce it.
@@Jef
Thanks. I find different grit ratings and different abrasives interesting. I guess I'm a little strange.
@@whocares3986 Yup. I'd like to see a unified rating, myself. Be it micron abrasive size, or some other choice. So long as, everyone, got on the same page. 1k American water stones are not the same as a 1k Japanese stones. There are charts, showing the different ratings, and micron sizes, floating around the webs. Do a google search for it, if you don't have one yet :)
Jeff, I have most of the Venev diamond stones but I have never seen the 100/120 on gritomatic website. Where did you get the 100/120? I would love to add that one to my collection. I have the 100/240 and I am in love with the 100 side. Really moves metal.
Venev's website. Had to order from Russia.
vidbrusok.com/
Interesting video and great results with your manual sharpening!
I wonder how long Venev stones are going to remain available, with the "Special Military Operation" and such.
Speaking with Konstatine, he stated supply lines would come and go, and stock may be disrupted, but they are gong to do all they can, to keep things moving. Obviously nothing can be predicted at this point, but it sounded like they were prepping plans for that possibility.
If you can't get them from gritomatic just order then from Hapstone, shipping takes about 2-3 weeks but their prices are lower then gritomatic by a fair bit and shipping is cheap. Hapstone always has stock.
Will the shapton pro stones sharpen steels like cru wear, rex 45, k390, m390, magnacut, elmax, s110v, 15v, you know what im saying the super steels, the steels traditionally considered hard to sharpen.
I guess my question is…..i know you should use diamond stones of some type for those steels…..but, will the pro stones still sharpen some if those steels even if it takes a long time. And obviously i realize some it will sharpen better than others, But what are your thoughts on it??
The lower grits will sharpen some of those steels, but it isn't ideal. Can they do it? Sure. Once you get to around 800-1k, you are going to see a very noticeable decrease in the stone cutting. Some of those steels, won't even get past 320.
In all instances, I would refer you to gritomatic silicone carbide. Many will argue till blue in the face, about how sic does not cut carbides. As I have said a thousand times. I will take the pepsi challenge any day they want to go at it with their diamonds against me and my sic.
However, I would be doing you a disservice if I did not mention diamonds. They aren't just for flattening my sic stones. No sir, the Venev resin bonded stones, are A+ in my book. They sharpen, and polish. Neat thing is, you don't have to argue with everyone who has an opinion, about carbide tearout. They see you on diamonds, and keep it moving ;)
Seriously though, gritomatic sic stones, or venev diamond, would be my 2 recommendation, for sharpening those steels. You really do need a good abrasive, to get those at peak performance. Alum Ox just isn't going to cut.
If you care to watch, I have several videos showing stones cut high carbide steels. I'll try to link one or two, but I don't advertise them. Just an invitation to an argument I don't care to have, ya know?
comparing shapton vs venev
th-cam.com/video/dpL27pYhL-Y/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
having issues with a cpm custom heat treat
th-cam.com/video/-1_TeduIut0/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
s90v - King, and Suehiro Cerax
th-cam.com/video/-1_TeduIut0/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
I am sure there are more but that is just a quick glance. If you want to see gritomatic in action just search my channel for them. Tons of videos doing many steels.
Thanks!! Yeah I saw one of your vids trying to do that. Yeah I have seen not only you but others do the sic stones to sharpen hard steels, so i truly believe you. I think most people who argue that stuff have never personally tried it and seen results, they just arguing what they heard. I will have to pick up a couple of the sic stones, i just read about them and it lists off almost every single steel i asked you about above lol!!
I ordered a bunch of stones recently because I just got a few spydercos and i ordered a hogue, and a demko. So I ordered I think 4 of the shapton pro stones cuz my other waterstones are the cheap amazon crap, and i have a couple cheap diamond plate stones. But then i was going to order a few centaur venev stones and i didnt like the 1 inch width, i mean its small watching it on video, so I went another route altogether……I found the naniwa diamond resin stones on sale, 20% off, so i bought 3 of the smaller ones, 5.5 x 3 inches. I think i ordered 400, 1000, 3000…….so those should work amazingly, then my next purchase will be the gritomatics. Thanks for all the info and linking me the other vids. I appreciate you man!!
I hear those Naniwa are top notch. They are what everyone else compares to. So you should have a damn fine set up with that. Let me know if you think about it, how they perform. Would be interested to hear your opinion
@@Jefthanks man!! I will! I might even make a quick vid with them and link you to it or something!! Thanks for your help, your suggestions, and your vids!!! Love what you are doing man!!
Very interesting. I have the Phoenix series of Venevs in 240/400 and 800/1200. Yours looked like the Dragon series. Did you find with your Venevs a period of break in before the diamonds got more exposed and started cutting better? Thanks!
I lapped and conditioned mine out of the box. I usually do that with all my stones.
@@Jef I did that with 400 sic on the 240/400 and 400 sic on the 800/1200. I guess I'll just have to keep working it.
@@MichaelE.Douroux I got a video showing the process. I used pretty coarse grits, and left the surfaces pretty rough.
th-cam.com/video/shrzw51Vwlw/w-d-xo.html
@@Jef Ok, thanks, will watch.
Have you tried Gunny Juice stropping emulsion? I'm very partial to the 1 micron, seems to work better than anything else I've ever tried.
Yup gunny juice is actually decent. Others have told me it’s very aggressive but i haven’t found that to be the case. I have been using it on balsa but did add it to some leather recently. So far i prefer the balsa
Thanks jeff anoyher good video
Thanks for taking the time to check it out! 👊
For a customer, or one of my nicer knives, I'll eliminate the chip. But usually, I'll leave it and plan on eliminating it around 4 sharpenings down the road. If I chipped a knife it's usually one I use hard anyway, so I wouldn't want to remove so much steel just to chip it again.
That is not a bad philosophy. The problem I have with leaving chips, in my line of work, is that they grow. Then I must remove even more steel. It's a balancing act, and the reason I stopped using my MUDD knife, at work. I had sharpened it so many times, I was afraid the steel lose, would start to show. My collection is huge, so it is easy enough to rotate through many. I recently (i say recent, it has been almost a year now) got a custom lineman splicing knife made. Since I received it, most cutting tasks at work, is achieved using it.
@@Jef I was thinking about asking if you carried more than one knife lol.
It's rare that I chip a knife I really like. But one thing I've done is turn a chip into a small scallop/serration. Literally sharpened the chip with a rod!!! Lol. The chip didn't grow from there and was gone 4-5 sharpenings down the road. I wonder, because I removed all the immediate damaged steel and put a clean (almost polished) bevel around the contour of the chip, did I drastically reduce the chances of the chip growing? Lol, an interesting thought.
@@oceanwaves83 Interesting question. I may have to try that out next time I get one, and see what happens :D
As for knives, if at work, I carry that linesman's knife, plus two additional. Usually a side opening auto in the 3.5 inch range, and something smaller.
Which leaves a sharper edge
About the same. Cant tell any difference, other than the fact, venev will cut steels, shapton wont. Its more about technique than stones, when it comes to edge sharpness
Between gritomatic silicon carbide and vaneev diamond what would be your pick
Gritomatic sic 👍
Thoose venev looks really good. How do you like them against your gritomatic stones?
I want some stones that can do my harder steels more easy like m390 or high hardness magnacut and niolox and such
Man Gritomatic are among my top tier stone sets. They fight Shapton Pro for that spot, only bc they sharpen any steel. After those two, Venev come in 3rd. Again, bc they can sharpen any steel. If you want an analog, I find them similar to Spyderco Ceramics(in terms of feedback/feel). They are soulless, like Shapton Glass; again, low feedback, and feel like sharpening on glass. The lower grits, you can feel the bite of steel and stone, but around 700 grit, that feeling is replaced with glassy, glossy, glaze. For that reason, they do not hold my top position. However, they would be near the bottom of my list, like most diamonds, if it weren't for the fact they wear so slow, splash n go, and require almost no maintenance. On occasion, they do like a surface conditioning. Esp the lower grits. Otherwise, they get glazed, and cut very slow, considering how coarse they are meant to be.
@@Jef so saving for gritomatic then is my bet
@@knifesharpeningnorway I'd hate to say yes, and then you find out you hate them. However, yes! That is my recommendation. Do keep in mind, I tend to go against the grain, when it comes to many things sharpening. In real true honesty, there is nothing the Sic and Vid stones can do, the other can't. It is really all about the feedback, and speed. For me, the sic win hands down in that dept.
@@Jef say two or three gritomatic stones too do it all what would you recomend grit wise?
@@knifesharpeningnorway Yea I have always said the 240, 1k and 2.5k gritomatic sic is all that is needed. Anything else is just filler. The 240 will reprofile and remove steel at an incredible rate. The other two can refine that down. If you want finer, then other stones will be needed. The 2.5k is a good, toothy edge. For kitchen cutlery, you may want more.
I liked the 8k Suehiro g8 stone. I'd heard from so many, that it is sic, and then others state, it is something else. Either way, it sharpened Maxamet. If it can do that, it can handle any steel I will throw at it. Plus, the polish is nice. Not super reflective, but a strop, or two, afterwards, will get ya there.
My only gripe with venevs is they cut so damn slowly…. What’s the point of diamond abrasives if they’re slow? Still, they last forever so that’s good. I want some vitrified diamond stones.
If you condition the surface, they cut decently. Still not as fast as many other stones. True diamond plates can be fast, but that also means they remove more material than you may want/or need. There is always a trade off somewhere.
I've tried some of those vitrified diamond stones. Like diamond plates, they are too fast, imo, and remove too much material. I'd prefer something like venev over them, any day. Which is why you don't see them on my channel
Good video. Thank you
Thank you too!
Have u used gunny juice for stropping with if u have what do u think of it is it worth it
Yes I actually like Gunny Juice. Like all diamond stropping compounds though, I think it is over priced. I can get the same, if not better results, from plain old white compound. That said, if diamond is your choice, I'd go with the stuff triple b sells first (knife house diamond spray), and maybe gunny second.
What are your feelings between the gritomatic stones and the chosera?
When i first discovered chosera, they were my favorites. After a few months, every stone from 1k to 10k started to develop cracks. I took care of my stones, i know how to dry them properly etc. after speaking with MANY other users, who also experienced the same thing, i quit using them. I contacted the company about it and was completely blown off. That being said, chosera are bottom of my list. Id rather sharpen on a sidewalk, than spend money on any naniwa product.
What are my feelings between the two? Gritomatic are leaps and bounds better. Cheaper. Cut any steel. They may not polish as well, but they don’t crack. 👍
Is that a Shapton pro or is it the “Glass”?
Sorry I saw the white stone, and thought I misspoke, and labeled them incorrectly in the video. I did have the correct names in the description. They are the Shapton Pro stones. The Shapton Glass are all white stones, and have a glass back, that helps prevent warping. The Pro stones, as seen in this video, are multi colored, and do not have any backing.
For higher HRC like Maxamet or Polyhedral Tungsten Carbide would you go with Venev or Shapton?
Tungsten carbide? Woo wee what are you sharpening? lol. For that stuff, diamond? Hell I've never had the pleasure so I am assuming. For most high carbide steels I prefer Gritomatic Silicone carbide. After that, Venev. I get better results, esp on Maxamet. with SIC.
@@Jef Sandrin Knives Torino is in Polyhedral Tungsten Carbide great box cutter goes a long time.
@@rustyknifelover4463 Ahhh I got a buddy who has a couple of those. He was supposed to send me one, to sharpen and fool around with, but never did. If memory serves, stropping with diamond, was his best result. Using any sort of stone, caused serious apex damage. That including diamond resin from a few sources.
@@Jef That's what I am currently doing, Diamond compound and strop
I use diamond film on glass blanks to sharpen any sandrin knives. You will have to order diamond film from overseas as no one here that I know of sells it in the larger micron sizes you will need. You can get 9 micron and less from statesllc here in the US and that eill serve you if you just want to touch up an edge or do very slight micro bevels that are say .5 degree or so higher then the previous bevel but that will only work for a couple sharpens before you start getting to steep of angles and cutting performance suffers. However with diamond compound stropping you can keep each edge going for a very long time. But once you need a full sharpening that's why you have to have courses films, I order 200um, 100um, 80um, 40um, 20um and 9um. If you try to use a diamond plate or resin bonded diamond you will have chipping 100%. The diamond films will cause it slightly in the 200 and 100um size but only slightly and isn't a issue as your profiling the edge to where you want it. Once you reach the 80um film you will not have any chipping what so ever. Do not use edge trailing strokes only edge leading until you are under 80um edge trailing will deff cause chipping.
Diamond film is not cheap, and it's prolly in your best interest to send your sandrin knives off to a professional sharpener like my self who has worked with it before and has the correct abrasives to do it.
I personally do not enjoy sharpening it but not many professionals will touch it and a lot of people need it so I started accepting the work. I do charge more for it then I do steels as the diamond films wear very quickly and are very costly. It comes in 8x11.5 sheets and I cut it to 2x5.75 and stick it to 2 inch thick 2x6 inch float glass that I had cut for me. This gives me a dead flat surface to work with.
If you took anything from this, do not try to sharpen it on anything but diamond film or you will quickly get in trouble. If you try to sharpen it on diamond plates one pass is gonna cause fractures all over the apex.
It's an extremely fickle material, it's impressive no doubt but very very fickle and requires a very specific abrasive setup in order to be able to sharpen it.
👍🏻
👊
The one thing missing in this vid that interested me the most, is the actual feel or your thoughts of the feel between the two types of stones. I really dislike some of my diamond plates and really dislike the very fine grits of the different ceramic stones. Just not a good feed back for me.
I'm retired now after 47 years of custom knife making. Oddly enough, I have one of the first production runs of the DMT stones (fine grit at the time. 1970's ifrc. It still cuts well after literally thousand's of knives being sharpened on it. From back in the day, 440-c, 154-cm, 154-cpm, D2, Vasco Wear, ( now called crew wear) Steelite K-6 and now M390, 20cv, M-4 and cpm s90v. It is much finer now, as it has gone from the original 6-700 apx. 1200 grit. LOL. Still no bald spots on it. Sure wish the still make them like they use to. (Old age talking). It cost more back in the 70's than the new ones do today. Probably would be in the 400 usd to 500 usd at todays prices. It was a hard pill to swallow back then just starting full time knife making.
It was made from wo thick blocks of Lexan bonded together, and a 3/16" bottom plate for locking into place and an interrupted stainless and plated diamond surface. Heavy, and very flat.
My knives were always made for using, but sadly in a way, became highly collected with stupid high prices. (Heck, no way I could even afford one of my own knives today). which brings me to my #1 gripe with all the sharpening vid's getting so much attention these days. Most go to very high polished edges. I would suspect because it looks good and impresses. I did the same for years at knife show's for for a different reason.
I got tired of people picking up my knives and inevitably seeing if they would shave arm hair and proceeding to bleed all over my table cloth. Sure use to use a lot of super glue on people. LOL! So I learned to put a very high mirror polish on the edge that sliced paper and shave hair like a straight razor. It just didn't have enough bit in it to be so dayumed dangerous to touch.
Polished edges are impressive for push cuts and people love to show how well they cut paper. Issue is, almost no push cutting with a knife is actually used in actual cutting in every day things that need a knife to be used. Sure a polished edge cuts cardboard wit a push cut and feels good. And it seems every sharpness test is a push cut. However, a fully polished ultra sharp edge never last very long at all. such an edge is virtually useless for anything other than impressing onlookers. Fantastic for vid's, show's and tv barkers. I'm getting to the point that I hate ever single vid maker slice a sheet of paper to prove how sharp his knife is. It is very misleading. It's gotten to the point that when the paper slicing starts, I find something else to watch.
A very lightly stropped toothy edge can and will if done correctly give 300 to 400 percent more cuts than a polished edge. Imagine what I am finding with high vanadium steels with this technique. Unreal!
Cedric for instance on his cutting test channel tried it, a compound toothy edge carried 154-cmp from just below 300 cuts to right at 1000 cuts before it would not cut typing paper cleanly. Which matches and passes 20cv. M-390, M-4 and almost any other super steel with the now so popular polished edge.
My little Brothrr sent me a brand new Benchmade 940-1 in high vanadium s90v and I put it to the test. I was not impressed. I put my own style of edge on it and cut 200 cuts in cardboard, cleared a lot of small limbs both dead and alive here on the property, another 100 cuts in cardboard, and another hour cutting limbs. (The trees here in this arid Texas area have a lot of silica in them and destroy edged quickly). The edge would still roughly shave and sliced paper, even phone book paper cleanly. A Huge difference. The factory edge couldn't make it thru 50 cuts of cardboard. bot a 20cv and M-390 blade wit a very well polished edge lost it at a little over 100 cuts on card board. Useless on the brush or a limb. But it looked nice! :
Quite a wall a text. 90% of my cut tasks are push cuts. I've got a video showing how they are used at work. I do not know if you are directing your comment towards me, or just in general. Since it is on my video, it feels like it has a target, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Assuming, you have no idea, that my knives, are used severely.
On another note, I did not describe the 'feel' of these stones, because I have done so on each set, in several other videos. It's a bit difficult when making these videos, to think about someone unfamiliar with my channel, stumbling onto one, and making it all inclusive. That's on me, but if you are really curious, feel free to search my channel for Venev.
If you want a condensed version here goes. I hate the feel. It is like sharpening on a piece of glass, or ceramic. Shapton pro rock, until you get to the 2k and higher. Then, they too, lose some feedback, and feel slippery, like glass/ceramic.
@@JefNo Sir! Not directed toward you at all. Just a comment on where I've watched the industry and how the products are used over the years. A LOT has changed.
I can't think of much of any use for a push cut in what I use a knife for. I use them for cleaning game, cutting limbs, rope, pull ties of course, and a lot of tough work here on the property. About the only thing I use a push cut for is leather for no other reason than I love the feel of a keen blade passing thru the leather. Kinda soothing in a way.
I was looking seriously at the new Venev type stones and had it in my mind that the matrix would give them a smooth or silky feel while sharpening. Something missing in the typical diamond stones. I use Diamond mostly because most of my blades are high in Vanadium and they work so much faster.
Your assessment of the feel of the Venev is a disappointment and has me re-thinking which way I am going to go. I have DMT's that I've used for over 40 years and they are still doing a fine job. However, I keep hearing/reading that the quality is not what it use to be. Again, very disappointing.
Thankyou for your in-depth look into sharpening for the users.
Are the Shapton Pro's efficient for high Vanadium Steels? My main concern. I had not considered the Gritomatic SC stones mostly due to bad experiences with the old reliable Norton SC stones. I may have to try one out. Thank You. (Picked up you thoughts on the 90v bugout vid).
Very well done vid's Sir!
KnifeMaker/Retired.
Venev low grits do have a decent texture. For awhile. Like an oil stone, if you do not condition the surface, it will feel glazed. Also, like an oil stone, this slows the cutting speed. If you condition them with loose sic powder, it changes everything. They become much more alive. After several sharpening, maybe even one, with high vanadium steels, and you are right back where you started.
The middle and higher grits really suffer from that ceramic feel. You can alter it to a degree, with conditioning, but they don’t take long to get that glazed feeling again. It is a shame, but every stone has it’s quirks. You just gotta figure out what you can deal with, and compromise.
There are a few makers (very few) doing vitrified diamond stones, similar to venev. They have better texture and feedback. The down side is, the price. Expect to pay $3-600 per stone. The set i tried, went to 3k. Even at that grit, I was unable to get a super keen edge. The diamond was so aggressive, it would shave my apex right off. Personally, i hated them. Venev reigned superior bc they were slower, and allowed mistakes.
Double edged sword there. Speed, is also one of the reasons, I’m not a huge fan of them. The slowness is beneficial in the example above, but can drive you mad, when you are trying to get 10 knives done in 45m or less.
That circles me back to Gritomatic sic. I’ve used Norton, and approve of them, for heavy steel removal. However, if you want a finger edge, more refined, they are not your choice. The 240 Gritomatic sic, is finer than the Norton fine. It just gets better, and finer, from there. They have cut every steel I’ve placed against them. Faster than diamond. Feedback is among the best you’ll ever come across. Feel, sound, speed, cuts any steel. On top of it all, they go to 2500 grit. Which I’d compare to a 1-1.5k Shapton pro, in terms of edge feel.
I can not recommend them enough. Coming from old school lines, I think you would enjoy them, but then you talk about diamond plates from dmt. That gives me pause. Diamond plates, in my experience, are the bottom of the barrel. I use them only when i need heavy removal. I hate everything about them.
In your instance, I’d recommend just grabbing a 1k gritomatic sic and trying it. That way you are not out a ton of money, can try the stones for yourself, and the 1k is very versatile. Just coarse enough to remove minor damage, and fine enough for kitchen tasks, with toothy bite.
They do wear (sic) and require a quick soak. I’ve found 5 min to be enough, for all mine. Longer does help, but it’s not required. I also coated mine in cashew lacquer, to help hold water. The 240, in particular, is thirsty and porous.
They also benefit from loose sic conditioning. Esp out of the box. Gritomatic laps the surface really fine. I don’t understand why but there it is. They cut like shyt out of the box. Once you rough up the surface, they really change and come alive.
@@Jef
Sorry for the late reply. I will order one of the Gritomatic sic's and give it a try.
Thank you for your time in answering my questions.
Now being disabled, both my wife and I as well, we no longer have the finances for me to go crazy testing different systems and why I was seeking your wisdom on the subject.
KnifeMaker
@@Jef thank you for your replies Jef! I did get in a 400x800 Venev diamond matrix stone and am enjoying it. I found that a slightly heavier stroke edge trailing gives a feed back I like, while a very light edge leading stroke gives a very fine edge on the 800 side, but doesn't work on the 400 grit side.
Awaiting a shipment from them as they are moving. I will try their SC as per your suggestion fairly shortly. this being disabled and forced retirement makes ordering what I want all at once a pita. So it has to be one item at a time. GRRRRRR!
the reason I have so many dia. stones from the past, is the steels I used, Stelite 6k and Vasco Wear didn't do well with the stones available back then. (Early 70's). We were far from having anything like Ceramic stones or belts back then. I guess you could call it the Dark Ages for working exotic steels back then. My shop at the time was out side the Marshal Space Center in Huntsville and I had access to the most exotic metals in existence then and learned the advantages of diamond lapping from the people who ran the labs at some of the most advanced companies involved in the Space Shuttle projects.
Sure wish I had access to such tech today.
(One thing I really appreciate with the Venev product is they provide the Micron size. Like you, I wish the industry would provide this info across the board as the different ratings are all over the map and takes far too much research to really get a handle on how different makers products compare. Double GRRRRR+ PITA!!!
KnifeMaker