The Hardest Possible Climbing Fall - P.2
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ต.ค. 2024
- How does Hardest Climbing Falls Feel for the Climber?
Can it Hurt? Can it Injure you? What Forces are involved in these Rock Climbing Falls?
Massive thank you for everyone who helped me to do these experiments.
P.s. NO one got injured ;)
If you are in nerdy needs to measure forces - highly recommend to check out the new LineScale:
bit.ly/3gcPnHJ
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Deep Thanks!
Ben
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Mammut being willing to share facilities like this for the community's benefit where companies often don't give us hardly any practical info really pushes me to go out of my way to use their gear.
It's really smart... I've seen like 4 videos of them with "influencers"... The free advertising that gives them must be insane!
Just wanted to say this channel gave me the most knowledge in regards to climbing. I learned how to belay, build an anchor, when to cut off my rope (and already cut it twice), how to belay dynamically, how to always nail a figure of 8 and how to climb harder on rope (based on the videos with hannah I went from 7a to 7c in 2 months).
Also my friend skipped a draw and fell while clipping the next one overhead in a gym, the fall was massive and he went from top of the 12 meter climbing whall to the first quickdraw (I gave him super soft catch because there was a ledge) and he said although he felt his balls in his throat when falling, the catch was super nice.
@Colonel Artemus Bellwhether Just worn both sides, no loop when pinched. I fall and hangdog a lot.
I know it's unrelated but the dog getting excited at 13:40 is pretty adorable.
Looks like a BRIARD
This channel is taking the knowledge of belaying to another level. You are a gem to the climbing community. This channel is my favorite channel to recommend, because so much of this knowledge is not taught in courses. Actually understanding how large forces are created, when and if they matter and how to avoid them is not explained in enough detail in regular courses!
I am glad you weren't injured when the anchor failed. It looked scary with the anchor flying past you to the ground. Besides that this channel always leaves the quantitative nerd in me very satisfied. Cool!
I was more worried about hitting my head to the wooden stool behind :DDDD
Thanks for support btw ;)
When even a Banana understands nerdy physics things, you can be sure that you are a master of explaining complicated things in an easy way 🥰 amazing job ben
Avatars are smart !
@@HardIsEasy she release her inner smurf.
There are a couple of things to consider when thinking about "how hard" a fall is. The first is peak force, which you measure quite well here.
The second is peak jerk (rate of change of acceleration), which you don't address. If the acceleration onset rate of a longer fall is lower, it could easily be the case that the felt "hardness" of the whipper is less than a fall with lower peak acceleration but higher rate of change of acceleration.
Hello man! It's hard to express how much I have learnt from you. The amount of detail you include in your videos to ensure they are quality and useful for learners like me, the sense of altruism you do it with just for the sake of sharing and how reassuring they feel turn your work into something so admirable. Congratulations for your work from a huge fan.
Woaaa! Cheers for such an amazing comment and a tip! Gonna buy bananas :D
@@HardIsEasy My pleasure man! you showed how youtube wasn't going to pay you to recognise your effort, so we better do if we can! I believe you live in Spain right? I'm from Madrid!
I took a Lead climbing class in my local gym but I can't get much knowledge out of it. I think your video series explain ways better. Thanks for doing this.
I agree. I watched all the belaying videos before the toprope belaying class... Well I think they were slightly annoyed by me asking questions🤣.
And your figure of eight was way easier for me to learn by hard than the one they showed in the gym.
Awesome, awesome video. Thank you so much for making these. I am REALLY, REALLY looking forward to the video about belaying sketchy close-to-ground falls!! Cannot find a good resource anywhere on how to do those.
Always extremely interesting and useful. Thank you for such quality content.
Pleasure is mine!
A big factor on how high the force is, is the time it takes to transfer the energy. When taking a big swinger you have a constant force on the rope while you swing into the wall instead of one quick pull like when you tried on the bars thats why your number on the bars was higher even though you only fell from a height of 30-something cm.
That work you are doing is so valuable! Thanks for all the nerdyness 😍 I joined the channel.
Highly appreciate it!
Great video!
Just a little FYI, I work as an R&D engineer at a company that designs devices similar to what you're using. Squishing the device on it's sides is not measuring anything relevant. The guage is measuring the strain on the material in the direction it's designed to be loaded. When you squeeze it on the sides, you're still measuring the strain on the material in direction it was designed. So variables like where you place your thumb vs your fingers on the opposite side of the device, what direction you hold it, etc.. now substantially effect the measurement.
Do you have any accelerometers to recommend? :D
Now to your comment... yea ofc it's not something very accurate, but so far the strongest people I gave it to try managed to get highest readings, so there is some kind correlation. Anyhow this is just entertainment at this point.
@@HardIsEasy Accelerometers measure acceleration... are you in need of an accelerometer?
For sure! I don't know specifics of it's design and how the strain gage(s) are mounted internally. Clearly I can't argue with your results. Try squeezing it in the other direction if your fingers can fit through the holes.. I would imagine the device will still output a force with negative strain being applied to it? If so, it'll be much more accurate.
Thanks for the excellent videos.
"Just what in the world are these customers doing with our device?!?" moment hahahaha. people always find new "applications"
@@ezikiel121212 Yea I need accelerometer so I would get G forces along the fall and during impact ;)
@@HardIsEasy I have not idea about accelerometer, but I think some smartphones include one. Probably are not so precise but better than nothing 😂
I just laugh spat coffee all over my phone at the scream and explosion "if this wall was not overhanging" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
This give me a lot of knowledge about the physics side of Climbing which I need to keep protect the safety of Climbing since I'm doing a guiding in Bali which there are no access about this kind of knowledge around, thank you for making this video.
I just squeezed 1.9 kn on my line scale 💪🏼. That’s how I know fear of falling is what’s keeping me locked at 6a and not my strength 😅. But your FOF videos have been a great inspiration and I did some work on that during my last trip. Thanks for all your great work!
Been loving these videos so far. I'm really excited for the coming videos you teased!
Thanks for another great video! Glad to hear that the falls only took 3-4Kn of force to the harness. It'd be interesting to see the force from a Factor 2 fall though, just out of curiosity.
The linescale measures deformation, pinching it in the middle and trying to focus the force on an as tiny area as possible will net the best results.
this is such a great work and quality content! I just joined on patreon and wondered, why I didn't earlier
Thank You so much!
As always, super interesting video. And, hearing that more Belay Master class episodes have been shot and are coming at some point in the future is AMAZING news. Thanks so much for continuing to produce great content.
By adding drag, you sort of increase the fall factor by decreasing the amount of dynamic capacity of the system. So if you have 30m of rope in the system with no drag and take a 15m fall, fall factor is 0.5. If you have a ton of drag in the last 15m of climbing, your experienced fall factor could be closer to 1.
Yes, with higher friction, peak forces on the climber go up. If the top piece had 100% friction, you would be experiencing ff2. But peak force on the top piece goes down (less of a 2:1 system). Which side of the equation “wins” depends on the amount of rope of course.
Best way to clip "sketchy close to the ground falls" is with a stick clip. Just have to remember the stick clip.
Thank you for your video! It's interesting and useful =) And the competition in the end is my favorite part - Banana was awsome!
💖💖
Once I deliberately took a ~4m fall on a Topas in a gym to test out how comfy a colleague's harness was. I know Topas are not designed for that, but I wanted to try a really, really insane fall and the Topas was perfect for that because it has a static rope. TLDR; it was quite painful on my nuts, who would have guessed with a static rope :D
I guess that was around 5kn or something, because I've took 12m falls outside and they were not nearly as hard as that 3m fall. After it I had blue blood marks on my legs haha
Great work as always. But to obtain more accurate data you shude consider the same ratio climber/belayer. If the belayer is lighter then he will work as a damper and will reduce the force... probably this is another aspect to consider when explaining the higher force with a lighter climber in the previous episode. Cheers :)
To be fair, force does not tell everything. Force relates to acceleration of the falling body, but the derivative of acceleration often has a bigger impact (it's called Jerk and is basically how fast the acceleration is applied to the body). You can kinda see it as being punched (high Jerk), vs being pushed (low Jerk), where the push force can be higher but the punch will still be less pleasant.
Also, you did not blur the name of the donator in the second line of the message, not sure if the blurred part was the name or some other details ;)
Yea Peak force to the Harness is far from good representation of Hardness... I want to do more accelerometer testing, but from what I tried with my phone didn't worked so well... Might need to buy a proper accelerometer to get G forces during all phases of the fall...
and yea... late night editing.... anyway kind person hope he doesn't mind :)
@@HardIsEasy comfort in general is just very hard to measure objectively, since it is highly subjective and a human is much more than just a simple block of matter. So in similar cases, force is a decent way to try and objectively test stuff. In all these falls there are so many variables you could check so it's just impossible to get completely accurate readings. As long as people know the number on the linescale is not an absolute value of anything related to the fall but merely a tool to try and make some observations it's probably a valid and useful analysis you're doing, to give people insight in what happens and to take away some fear and unknowns.
@@HardIsEasy You may need several accelerometers attached to different parts of the body, but even then, it will be very dependent on how much you flex your muscles.
I think you'll need a full blown crash dummy to get repeatable results.
@@therflash Yeah that's also why those test falls are unreasonably hard for certification, to make sure they always have a 'worse than worst case' scenario. I don't think it is doable, nor useful, for someone on youtube to try and get this as accurate as possible, because even with a lot of very expensive equipment it will have variance. It's probably a lot more accessible to just do the 'backyard' method and realise that there is a big tolerance on the numbers. As long as the conditions are taken into account it is still useful data.
amazing work again! i recommend this channel regularly to all my climber friends
Thank you for the Videos we needed, but couldn't ask for👍💪
Love your videos 💚👍
Good job! Very entertaining while full of valid information.
Sending love to Hannah, hope she recovers quickly and glad she is still alive.🙏
5:24 actually freaks me out
hey folks, at 9:48 a woman says "Hand weg!", german for "take your hand away (from the rope)", the belayer then looks at his left hand and lets go. luckily he didn't let go of the right hand, good job!
Thumbs up, great content as always, be safe
It was just to not hold the rope above the device measuring the force, so that the reading would not be affected ;)
@@HardIsEasy interesting, thanks a lot!
the reason your bolt pulled is because it was in the roof and you're only applying pressure to the screw contact point threading which is thin pieces of wood. even using an expansion bolt, bolts in roofs are much less strong than those on a face, those on face are applying pressure not just to the surface area touching bolt and primarily bolt itself, but you also have the force of the fall directed from the bolt straight upward into the rock or piece of wood, instead of primarily on the bolt itself.
As you've proven on your home wall, these forces matter more for a trad climber than just how it feels. The top piece takes twiceish the force of the force on the climber, because the breaking side of the rope has to stop you with equal force. So 3kn on the climber is almost 6 kn on the top piece.
¡muchissimas gracias! saludos del pais vasco!
"Unlikely multipitch scenario". I can imagine something like falling past your very inattentive belayer, who's maybe even anchored in on a very short leash. I don't know how likely this is to happen, but I'm pretty sure it would suck.
Can you please, please, please list the songs you use in the description? You pick awesome music that I want to get. PS- Love your videos!
Use your phones microphone to ask Google what song it is and then play the video on another phone. After a few seconds it will most likely tell you unless he's using an independent artist or someones original work
In regards to your homewall failing; in commercial gyms bolts in 18mm plywood is always backed up, but in 24mm plywood they don't have to be, although you cannot attach them with T-nuts.
Well I hope someone learns from my mistake and doesn't do such a shitty job in real Gym
Excellent content and much appreciated. Thank you
thanks a lot for all your work. i appreciate it a lot
I found it crazy how little falling distance was needed to get a hard fall on a static sling. Obviously we all know if using static slings to secure ourselves to a belay station (more in multi pitch trad climbing rather than sport) you should keep them loaded so they are not shock loaded but given how little distance was needed to produce a big load, it shocked me how easy it might be to over load a belay station to failure. It would be really interesting to compare this to a similar length dynamic method of securing yourself (such as a lanyard or by tying off your rope) because although it's dynamic it's still very short.
in theory ropes should act similar for the same fall factor. A short fall on a short rope can still be a high FF but you should be fine even in a FF=2. There are many people who fell directly on the anchor while rope soloing and they are fine.
Falling from a greater height (the whipper fall) allows for more acceleration time before the rope catches you.
Good to se you back !
Thank you Sir! Great job 👍💯
I would like to request the same experiment at 7:10 but with the sling replaced by a short cord of dynamic rope (to mimic PAS like Petzl connect adjust). If falling a short distance still results to a similar amount of impact, we have proven (although not rigorously) that our body acts as a shock absorber and absorbs most of the impact in both (dyneema and dynamic rope) cases (since our body is much softer than both dyneema and dynamic rope). This way we can convince people that no matter what PAS you use, you should never create slack on your PAS. A dynamic rope PAS does not help much.
That exploding into the wall edit caught me completely off guard hahaha
RIP plywood and thank you for the science!
TL;DR Static 4kn fall with a millisecond peak isn't nearly the same as 10 meter 4kn factor 1+ whipper.
Don't try those please.
----
Hey, just want to point out that I've seen something that you and Ryan seem to both get wrong, and that's the assumption that 4kn is 4kn no matter what.
4kn fall from 30cm is not the same as 4kn fall from 10 meters. The duration of the peak also matters a lot, arguably just as much as the force.
On a 30cm fall on a dyneema, it's going to be very sharp and short duration, split second peak, and as you say, you may barely feel it. But mathematically, force is mass*acceleration, and since we know the force, and we can guess the mass of 70 ish kg, that gives 4kn=70kg*X. In this case, the X turns out ~57m/ss, or... 5.8G !!!.
But you don't feel 5.8G, because your body flexibility absorbs lot of the energy, the millisecond or so peak forces didn't have time to develop, stretch your tendons and propagate through the body.
On a taller fall, the peaks would be much longer duration, and would have some limited time to overwhelm our body's stretching ability.
5.8G is almost twice the G force as to what astronauts are regularly exposed to during a rocket launch, if it was continuous.
5.8G is enough to drain the blood from a brain of most untrained people, knock them out and even kill them if it was a continuous force. And that's assuming you'd be strapped in a proper seat. Flailing around by your waist at continuous 5.8G sounds quite deadly.
Anyway, that's just to nail a point, the duration of the force matters a lot. On higher falls, if the force was the same, the energy still has to go somewhere. It goes into the duration, the peak lasts for much longer, and actually may get enough time to do a real harm.
4kn is always 4kn regardless of the duration.
@@FlatOutFE Ok, mathematically speaking, yes, 4kn = 4kn. My point is, the effect on your body from 4kn for a millisecond is very different from an effect of 4kn for a full second. It may not make a difference in terms of breaking gear, because we can measure it well, but it does make a difference in breaking your spine. You can't put a linescale between your spine and your pelvis to get the real numbers for example.
As your harness gets hit by the 4kn, the force pulling your pelvis away from your spine will be slowly increasing, and it won't reach maximum until your glutes are maximally squished, your legs and toes and associated tendons are stretched all the way down, you're doing a full scorpion, arms and hands and head all bent downwards. It's around this point that your body can't absorb much more energy, and the forces between your vertebrae will be at their maximums.
If the catch doesn't last long enough for you to make that pose and those forces to fully develop, you haven't felt the full 4kn, even if the belay loop did.
@@FlatOutFE True, but body parts have inertia. It takes some time for an impact to spread from the hips to the spine and neck for example. Maybe the nervous system can’t even feel short, hard forces (as long as they don’t cause any permanent damage)?
@@therflash as you said yourself, the load only lasts a few parts of a second. the 3G an astronaut have to endure is for a few minutes, thats why the are laying on their back. but all in all the loads arent that bad or heavy. when you start with your car fast so that you get pressed into your sit you also easy reach 1.5-2G. i think when you jump somewhere down, like 2m you have forces of 10-50G - it realy depends on how fast you stop.
@@Mike-oz4cv, the energy from the 4kN gets absorbed by the harness and body regardless of the duration. It doesn't just disappear and it doesn't stay around for ever. The dynamometer is looking at the force over time and records the peak force.
Very very nice, as usual. it would very nice for the trad guys tu see what happen falling at de begging of a pitch
Looking forward to the how to belay series!
¡Gracias!
"Don't do this at home" Way too funny.
Nice!
About forces on falls.
Stretch of rope is probably pretty linear to the length of rope, just like a spring, a twice as long rope will stretch twice as much under the same force.
The speed of fall however, is exponential to its length, (the acceleration is linear, the speed as a function of distance is.. not.)
Hence, a scaled up scenario should see more force, since the fall force increases more than the stretch of the rope.
We are pretty close to the definition of a impulse btw. N/s=m*v. Newton per second equals mass times velocity.
We're basically looking to decelerate the climber for an as long period as possible, making the peak force as small as possible, even if the total impulse of force is the same for a fall with a mass and height (therefore velocity)
And that impulse increases the further you fall.. making a soft catch more important, and also more easy because of all the stretch.
Just one note: The stretch of the rope is not linear since you have friction in the system. Rope closer to the climber stretches more than next to the belayer.
@@HardIsEasy but there is also less force on the rope at the belayer because of friction in carabiners along the way
3:22 both of my favorite sports in one clip :)
Awesome video! Thanks for putting your but on the line for us. 😂 thanks for sharing.
> Can you get injured from a climbing fall?
Yup. Took a sideways whipper and cracked my talus and heel bone (think smashing two nuts together). I was above the last quickdraw but to the side. Slipped and the swing took me with such force that I hit the rock *just below* the quick draw. I haven't healed yet, probably never will (it's developed a bit of osteoarthritis)
How comes that you are in the climbing gym in Zweibrücken (Germany)? Ist really near to me. Where you climbing in Pfälzerwald at that time? Beautiful climbing area where I happen to live right in the middle.
By the way, where are you from? Spain? Anyway I love your videos although I came across them by chance.
Thank you for Belay masterclass.
Greetings from Germany.
Pat
9:40 the grigri was so freaking close to his face. Couldve been really painful if he just leaned forward a little more. Really gotta think about these things when you elongate your belay device like that
I think the pinching strategy is really more in how you hold it? The better your grip, the more power you can provide. Maybe bigger hands = better?
Bigger hands is probably better due to the lower moment needed to generate a force (smaller arm, in this case finger, to apply the load).
That device is not made for such test so there is too many factors that could affect the reading, my hands are tiny and I got higher reading than some of stronger dudes...
that's some brave falling
Was there a line scale on the belayer of the big whipper. If so was that reading added to the climbers reading? Looks like the gym fall was on a fixed belay.
Thanks!
Thank you so much!
As good as always. Thx 👍
Compliments on not pushing to much about subscribing and all that TH-cam stuff we all now what and why that is about! :D
also I now want to contribute. :)
Hello,
Thx for all your great videos. I am actually enjoying them :)
One Question: Where could I buy this force measurement device?
As a physiotherapist I could have good use of this.
Thank you, you can find a link in video desc, however it's not really suitable for measuring small forces so in physio you probably need a smaller variation.
1:19 it's back!! 😂👌
Muy buen video, gracias por los subtítulos, son de mucha ayuda.
How does it feel to take a huge wipper? F ING awesome!
That dog was cute as hell :D Celebrating every new best of Hanna.
"The whiping was okay, but not the landing on the ass"
Hahahahahaha!!!!
Hi Ben. Got a question / idea for a topic: belaying kids / catching lead falls. Lets say a little climber is 8-12 years old, weighs 25-30kg. Is dynamic rope still doing its job or does it feel harder? Looking at strest-strain curves published for climbing ropes, it is not quite linear but I expect rope to stretch about half as much as for an adult climber? Also any tips on best belaying technique would be great - this does not seem to get a lot of coverage so far.
5:25 Damn you, I just spit water all over my screen lol
ah, good job at keeping your water consumption going :D
Love the video!
Danke!
Thank you so much Julien!
Maybe I am taking it a bit too far since you are talking about sports climbing. But the hardest fall in climbing would be one where you are simulclimbing, with no rope-clamp between the climbers. No brake to give dynamic belay. First bottom climber falls, then the leader is dragged down. Both climbers falling. I don’t have the physics skills to calculate this, but the fall factor on the top climber could be enormous. The scenario is similar to via ferrata, only without the specialized gear.
Yea that's far from what I'm concerned about :))))
But hey if you want to test that I can borrow some Linescales for ya ;)
@@HardIsEasy Couldn’t we fool HowNot2 to play around a bit with it? 😁
Thanks for great material as always! 🙏
@0:30 That's some good belaying. Climber would have been fine even without the pads
Great video !!!
So in the video you only testet falls with fall factor lower than 1! what happens with a fall factor greater than 1? I know that this is hard to test since you need bomber anchors and bolts for the quickdraw (otherwise nobody will help you testing)
I agree. Single pitch falls don’t even begin to reach the limits of what ropes and people can handle. Make it ff2, or even more (simulclimbing).
Amazing video
gotta get that baltic birch plywood.
Any chance you’ll have a video testing factor 2 falls?
I was looking for a video testing the forces/ potential danger of factor 2 falls, I had to bail out of a multipitch route this weekend as the first bolt after the anchor was like 20 feet above, I’m curious if it was actually deadly or just scary bit haven’t found any test of that anywhere.
Love your videos and I think this would be a very informative one of the real worst possible fall in climbing.
guess that 3.6 KN fall at the second clip onto the mats might be considered a force factor 2 fall?
technically it's fall factor 1 with really hard catch :)
You need to fall bellow belayer for it to be between 1 and 2
Oh and still wondering when belay masterclass EP6 will come back online ;)
Have few more vids before it coming to lay some ground for continuing Belay Masterclass series ;)
Lots filmed...
Thanks for interesting video. This leads me to think about climbing rope lifespan. What is the point its better to discard the climbing rope after falls if the rope seems to be in good condition and no visible damage? How can I identify hard catches and how many should I count until rope shouldnt be used anymore? Or can I ever get the rope to experience such forces in normal lead climbing that weakens its strenght remarkably?
coming in literally next video ;)
Great video! Thanks!
wow omg, is there a reason you used a static rope for the outdoors one? i watched your videos where you say to never take a fall using dyneema.
oh, is that a tiny little piece of dynamic rope attached to your harness?
would the little piece of rope cancel out the dyneema regardless of the length?
Good job ☺️
Thanks Danny!
Do you think that 3.8 kN mini fall, similar than falling on the R with the anchor still atacched could break an old multichain or an static rope anchor?
Interesting question!
Probably depends how old... Maybe just get a new one if this is a concern for you
0:27 Im sure this is my place! Muzzerone!
What about when doing multipitch climbing where the the belayer is hanging on a belay station/bolts, is no ledge to stand on?
Lead Solo falls PLEASE
Did you by any chance give the measuring device to matteo? :D
Nice Episode!
Emmm matteo in the video? :D
@@HardIsEasy yes that matteo :D
@@Dranksful Well he was trying it in the video no?
What was the peak force on the bolt in the hardest fall shown?
If the hardest fall you can generate is less than 4KN and that's regardless of belay technique, and you say that you barely feel falls in the higher 3KN range; then who really cares about belay techniques to soften the fall? Great video and fun. Thanks
People don’t want to break their ankles/legs by slamming against the wall.
@@schnibbelschnibbel What evidence that "softening" the fall effects the pendulum action?
I think you shouldn't split into girls vs. boys, but divide to weight or so
You bent the shit out of that bar haha
still not broken tho :DDD
power of 3-4kN....
So if I want to get a good grip on to a hold I just have to punch it? Got it.
Do it hard enough and you might have a better hold - perfectly shaped for your fist jam
Благодарим ви!
Thank you Daniel!
@@HardIsEasy Thank you for all the inspiring content, keep it coming!
Heroic, will not try that at home