A bit of extra context to how my endurance improved in these 4 weeks. Day 1. My Critical Force was 31.4%. This is below the average score for 8a/5.13b which is 34% Day 30. My Critical Force was 38.5%. This was above the average score for 8b/5.13d which is 38% These numbers are personalised to my height and gender.
You're on the same Level as Agnus Kille with 38,9%. Go get him Tiger! Well, and you have to match his 98,5% MVC :D This also puts Stefanos 64,5% into perspective....
@@Miura.Powers Haha yeah. If only my fingers were that strong. I'm working on it 😂 I still can't believe Stefano's score. I'd like to test Séb Bouin too!
@@LatticeTraining It's a shame that you guys switched to the force plate for MVC, now i can't compare my self anymore :D yeah, seb would be wild. Can you imagine him being around 40% and we all realize his technique is impeccable? :D
If CARCing doesn't sound good what about something like edging? Since you are mimicking pulling on an edge for long periods of time without quite reaching that high intensity zone where you can't maintain.
Thank for the feedback. I was trying to keep it short where possible but a great point. I'll pin a comment that should add a bit more context to how much my critical force improved by!
For the injury worries I always wonder how manual labour factors in to training like this. I've never seen a construction worker warm up their wrists and hands: we just showed up (hopefully sober), chugged a cup and a half of coffee with the morning cigarette and grabbed the the tools we needed for the day. Then it's 6-12 hours of laying bricks, drilling holes or tightening nuts. Repeat for 5 days a week, ~45 weeks a year, 30-ish years total with generally little to no finger injuries. Quite some messed up elbow, shoulder and hip joints though. As for a name: call it barking. Barely Aerobic Resistance-training, Kinda.
You also moved your body, arms wrists in various ways before starting intensive work. And not all work on the jobsite is exactly max effort lol. So no real max finger effort = no real finger injuries. But ofc lots of other injuries like you describe. Likely from not doing movements correctly and never working out for longevity.
@@Monscent honestly, it wasn't uncommon for me to take the bus to work, walk 2 minutes to get to the van, sit and discuss the day before I sat in the passenger seat for an hour. Then when we arrive it's full send immediately, it's not uncommon for hauling stuff off the trailer to be the most risky and intense bit of the day. Not too speak of the rope access jobs where we're in the car for 4 hours, then have 2 hours for a half day job. The only preparatory movement there is punching myself in the dick for quitting school so soon.
I have joiner friends who are now having grip issues. Basically they can’t fully close their fingers to make a fist due to holding hammers and drills all day every day.
The reason you may not see them get injuries as often is because if they are injured, they will often just work through it. Used to work in a fridge factory. People would take pain meds, use braces, I’d assume some abused worse stuff. It’s easier to work through than if you’re injured and try to rock climb, given that it is a less intense strain on your arms.
I did this for 3 months when I had my first real climbing injury, I used real easy grippers every night sitting watching tv about 100 reps 3 sets a hand, then used the band around the thumb ('hitch hikers enhancement' for those who know arm wresting) for the same reps, and the difference it made to my grip when I came back was insane, and there was a noticable difference to the size of the muscles around my thumb too.
Agreed. Just not practical for everyone. As a new dad I only get to the gym 2x a week at the moment and I like to have a short board session when I go. But I'd like to prepare for sport climbing in the autumn and this method gives me hope.
Heh, your results are pretty much spot on wrt what is to expect from doing z2 training. And just use zone 2, everyone uses it already and it's easy to translate into other sports. And also, it IS zone 2 training, so there's that. A few notes: 1. I would be very interested to see what rowing could do as an alternative way of doing z2. 2. Someone projecting hard should - theoretically - more than anyone prioritize z2 training. Enough z2 will improve the ability to recover between attempts and sessions, giving them more bang for their buck. In essence, z2 only make you marginally stronger, but it allows you to become a lot stronger. 3. It's super interesting that there is such an easily available way of doing z2 training for climbing, as reaching a level where you can even do z2 training is quite an effort in itself.
Did this for one day for 20 minutes, had instant inflammation in the carpal tunnel area! I feel like a more isometric type contraction would be healthier, than jiggling those tendons around for such long periods of time. It's a highly repetitive movement, so I feel like others should be careful with this as well.
Good to know your experience with this. I've also been experimenting with much lower times and slightly higher intensity. Currently trying 1 min sets with 1 min rest, 10 cycles in total.
Need a more direct motivation for training your grip? Try 'MARRIAGE' - - especially with children - just a few weeks of 'Married Life' plus 'Parenting' will have you pulling at the trim of your car or any available edge whilst gritting your teeth and suppressing a huge aerobic scream as you desperately try not to 'lose your grip'.
Haha- LFG! c’ARC’ing lyfe 💪. If anyone wants to hear more on this- check out my episode with Ollie from a while back. Thanks for donating your left forearm to science to this Josh!
Great video! I use a foam stressball for carcing - doesn't apply equal force to all fingers so i move it about to different positions and pinch it too and the variety makes it less dull and the foam is never sore on the hand. I'm looking for a sitffer one and/or a cylinder next!
Regarding the grip trainer being uncomfortable for long periods, I’ve found that using it backwards (fingers on the side your palm is intended to be on) significantly more comfortable, to the point I would say I have no discomfort over long periods :)
Yes I actually move it back to front and also upside down in each orientation, and with full hand or just fingers. I don't really get though why the 'standard' shape is as it is
Thanks, very interesting, especially on holidays:) 2 remarks: While you are N=1, you could acquire more samples on your self, therefore get error bars and be able to state the significance of the changes. Carcing sounds like taking a shit in German, so fully agree
Great video! How did you schedule this around your training days - would you stack this onto the day you were climbing/hangboarding - or add this into the recovery days?
I'm surprised you didn't see and effect of "The Cross-Education Phenomenon" - Cross education is the process whereby training of one limb gives rise to enhancements in the performance of the opposite, untrained limb.
Was wondering about that too. I’ve read that it’s the cross education phenomenon works best when the movement is more complex though as opposed to simple and monotonous
Yep I had this concern. I don't recommend jumping in at 3 hours a week. And I think more appropriate tools probably exist. Rice bucket? But I think if you build up slowly anything is possible. I like the anecdote from a builder in the comments. My volume was nothing compared to what some builders, bricklayer or scaffolders do. Our grip is very adaptable.
Starbucks employee: What name should I write on the cup? Customer: Mark, with a "C." Starbucks employee: Okay, here's your coffee, Cark. Maybe call your workout G.R.I.P., or Getting Red In Palm.
glad theres a good study to back up my decision to avoid these things for my climbing career. ive had a lot of people suggest to me to check these kind of tools out, and ive always turned them away. ultimately, just like everything else, there is no short cut. to get better at the thing you gotta do the thing. goes with art, exercise, and day to day activities. if youre focused on getting better, noticing the things that are holding you back, and actively working on your weaknesses, youll get better. simple as
@LatticeTraining Attention if you do it every day hundreds of time without stretching every day your forearm muscels the chances are high to get epicondylitis. I got it and 2 friends of mine too. It is better to press and hold for 10-20 seconds, 10-50 times with a pause of 10 to 20 seconds.
When I started climbing, my fingers looked really weak. I kind of came up with a similar concept, squeezing a grip trainer around 1000 times per day, most days, and noticed a significant improvement in my climbing. From climbing 5b to my first 6a top-ropes. Intuition says this is more of a thing that would benefit beginners, though.
i would say for beginners, go climbing and no training, maybee some pull ups. If you go from 5b to 6a only with your fingers then work on your technic and footwork and you will go from 6a to 6c lead. I got from 5b to 7b in two years without any Hangboard Session or anything. Now i'm at this point where i need to work for fingerstrenght etc.
Now that one of your arms has a significantly higher critical force than the other, it would be interesting to try one of those 2-handed endurance tests on a hangboard and see the difference in feeling between your arms as you go. An instant comparison of what more critical force feels like!
Awesome work as always, data driven, insight fueled... A thought on this one though... I think this subject could use a healthy section on repetitive stress injury cause and prevention.
I've tried this in the past but found it to be hard to keep focus on over time. I've theorized that using a TENS unit on your forearm could have the same impact, but completely passively and no attention required after you apply the pads. If you can set the intensity to contract your forearm muscles correctly I think it could work? Feel free to try it on your other arm and even things back out! 🤣
I’d also be interested in your power based measurements after having a power training phase, when the endurance training phase that had come before it included carcing, since the slower twitch fibers work to give the faster twitch fibers more endurance over the long run
*pumping iron* Like the arnie movie? when i bought these things, when i started climbing, i felt like it made my sessions worse, because i somewhat overtrained. in my opinion these training devices doesn't transfer to any griptype, not even pinches. i also bought one with single finger "buttons". this was even worse, the fingers were quite in pain. hangboard still seems to be the king.
Yes totally agree. Not very useful for training climbing strength. But the intention here is to develop a dense capillary bed and more mitochondria, to enhance blood flow and aerobic energy production. This improves recovery and endurance. So you'd only likely notice a difference on long sport climbs or during rest periods.
I've used a gyro ball while watching tv with a similar idea in mind - might keep the loads more balanced across flexors, extensors, etc...way more enjoyable and comfortable than a gripper. Powerball Titan is a good one. So if you get tired of CARCing you can play with your powerballs 😆
@@LatticeTraining This a is great point - they can be noisy when you rap them up to higher RPMs. This is a good argument for getting the Titan which is heavy and has a lot more resistance...staying below the lactate threshold with that one requires slower RPMs...also nicely built and I do remember it being noticeably more quite when I first upgraded to it from a prior one I had. I had a plastic one that eventually cracked...downside of metal one is it's not gonna be robust to dropping (bend and throw off balance etc). All that said, still gonna make some noise.
I would like to see if the difficulty to compress the spring was harder, and you did say 5-10 mins at a stronger grip... Would this also train your contact strength, rate of force development etc. After all we don't climb for an hour and we need the muscles to move more blood, so if you recreated a slightly more challenging grip what would the results of that look like?
I have some TheraPutty on my Desk for playing around and squeezing in calls and so on. THis is quite comfortable, as it is not a rigid training device. Maybe a more comfortable way for "Carcing"
Interesting experiment and fun video, but there are some pretty big statistical issues (I also acknowledge some of the qualifications that were made): Sample size of one - results aren't generalizable. Only one measurement before and after for each test (as presented in video) - no account for variability (in arm strength, tiredness, injury, etc, etc). No randomization or blinding - potential bias. Using one arm as control - assumes both arms react the same. Low statistical power - hard to detect real effects. More participants and multiple measurements would improve reliability. Sorry for being the fun police :(
This is what you would call a case study if it was done by real scientists. The purpose is to cheaply and clearly demonstrate the basis for a hypothesis. Using one side as control is a pretty common method in exercise science. And the actual change observed would qualify as significant, all things considered.
I feel like every climber already was doing this on long road trips, it’s like, well I am stuck driving for a while and I like to finger train, might as well pull on something in the meantime :)
Is there a way to gauge the statistical significance of these changes? I assume you take the same data for yourself semi regularly. How do the changes compare in general? Or perhaps sig levels aren't even relevant given how variable your training might be long-term?
I think we'd need multiple trials or multiple subjects to calculate statistical significance. Maybe we could determine effect size? But I think it would be misleading in a way, to suggest this is rigorously scientific. I have done this test a fair amount. But it's quite a brutal test so I have gone over a year without testing. If it helps, the past couple of years I've hovered around the same level of endurance as my pre-test. With work life and being new Dad I've mostly bouldered and not been worried about getting fit. I've been a bit higher (CF) in the past, about 34%. But never as high as 38%. And my previous 34% peak was during a season of sport climbing.
why do you ask for statistical significance if you clearly don't fully understand what it means? Statistical "significance" is not the be all end all even in a scientific studies and it's based on an arbitrary threshold of one of several popular methods of statistical analysis
It should just be called ''arcing", "hand triggering" or "pistol gripping". Can't use edging, which is already taken. Just look it up in the urban dictionary.
Hey Josh, great video! I know you mentioned intensity quantification is difficult but for people who might want to try to replicate, is there some way you can quantify the amount of force you were squeezing against for an hour? Maybe the grip machine has a value for how much force is needed to close it?
I started on the very lowest setting on this devise. I think it might say 5kg but I doubt that is accurate. Because this is essentially threshold training, the intensity will be need to be very individual. It will matter how strong and how fit you are. And these can be quite independent. For example, Jonny Kydd mentioned at the beginning of the vid is WAY stronger than me. But his relative endurance was half what mine was. So I might be training at a higher resistance than him for the same relative outcome. Something I noticed made a big difference was the cadence too. If I started to get a bit too pumped I just slowed down until it felt right. I think going of perceived intensity is best but it takes some awareness and experience that comes with years of training. A cheap digital feedback tool is the future for this stuff. But I personally don't want an edge, ergonomics is everything when you are using it for 60-90 minutes at time.
I prefer volume to hangboard training, but maybe Ive reached my limits without specific training or better technique. Usually end up injuring a finger or wrist whenever I try to push beyond v8 range. Im curious to give this a try, its easy to fit during the day.
Would a stress ball be a better tool to get blood flow but less pressure on palm? It would also include the thumb. When I was training for motocross I would run on the treadmill with light weights that had a bit of foam on them squeeze them on/off/on/off as I ran. Damn arm pump.
I have a question, was Josh said in the video that one should not pump on the forearm while doing the activity? Or I misunderstood? Because I think continuous squeezing for an hour leads to pump
Have you tried turning it spring facing you ? I find it more comfortable by fitting better in my palm. But in my case the friction becomes an issue quite early
Thanks for this post! How many KG were you squeezing in your study? Adjustable grip trainers [e.g. 5-60KG] set at the lowest setting (5KG) seem a bit too difficult (to me) for 30 minute ARCing sessions. I must be weak...
Can you suggest me some research about critical force and W' applied to climbing, please? And can you briefly explain me how should I take a climbing critical force assessment?
Are the lattice CF test and the Tindeq CF test relative to each other? For example if he was to test on a tindeq and the lattice setup would the result give a similar percentage?
That's a good question! But I don't actually know. We've never done a reliability comparison between the two methods. But I'd think there is a significant enough difference making comparison fairly unreliable.
@@LatticeTraining sure...but my understanding is that an increase in endurance is seen with an increase in strength/power by default, while the opposite is not true. I also RARELY fail from endurance but OFTEN fail from strength/power. 🤷♂
im sorry to break it to yall but you're strong enough on climbs. your footwork and efficiency in climbing could do with some work though i'll be real with you. so many of the people i climb with (my friends) are stronger physically than me yet i climb much harder boulders. your strength likely isnt holding you back and hot take but a 60 second deadhang or maybe 90 is probably enough strength to climb at least v7
I'd be curious if you could do the same type of intensity but with a rotating circuit of hand movements to avoid some of the repeptive stress...like have grippers, finger extensors, and a putty ball...I have had some irritation doing the carc'ing with the band is why I ask...or perhaps such a circuit might even yield more improved results it is relates to on the wall climbing as it is more varied...unfortunately/obviously adding more implements makes it less simple to fit into the week.
I agree more thought needs to go into the tools used. I actually want to try it again with a simple foam ball. Like a stress ball. It feels like it would support all the joints and load the hand evenly.
Seems like a lot of squeezing a grip. I have one of those orange 30kg grips. I squeeze it. I found it hard to start, now I can crush it. I wasn't even able to entertain pinching it closed and now am close. --++ Do you think having a manual job might help. Being on the tools all day?? That is like hours of low intensity work
Me gustaria probarlo para ver y testar si hay mejoras o perdidas en mi y tener mas ejemplos. Si podrias comentarme como hacerlo un poco mas especifico. Gracias y que grandes video subis.
@@LatticeTraining perfecto sabes decirme la carga que tenia el aparato que utilizas. Es que como no se ingles, me entero poco y como lo subtitulos no son completamente perfecto pues... jajaja pero sino me enterado mal sigues con tus rutinas normales pero añadiendo esto verdad?
I don't know how the RFD measurement works, but just looking at the data for the 'after' for the carcing arm it's completely flat in the start compared to the other ones and seems very similar once it starts rising. Could it be that the measurement started a bit too early? It looks to me like the whole graph should be shifted to the left.
Good spot. I did see this too and double checked. I believe it is just the graph that is wrong and the measurement was taken from the first upward inflection.
Yes I totally agree. I just jumped in that high to see if it would work but not to give advice. We see similar approaches in research because they want to show a large effect size or reach statistical significance. The research that follows should then try to answer how it can be made practical to everyday users or athletes. Like finding the minimum effective dose.
Grippers - at least some - are rated in terms of their difficulty, e.g., the popular Captains of Crush grippers, and a #1 COC gripper is rated at 140 pounds. Is the gripper you use rated in this way?
A bit of extra context to how my endurance improved in these 4 weeks.
Day 1. My Critical Force was 31.4%. This is below the average score for 8a/5.13b which is 34%
Day 30. My Critical Force was 38.5%. This was above the average score for 8b/5.13d which is 38%
These numbers are personalised to my height and gender.
You're on the same Level as Agnus Kille with 38,9%. Go get him Tiger!
Well, and you have to match his 98,5% MVC :D
This also puts Stefanos 64,5% into perspective....
@@Miura.Powers Haha yeah. If only my fingers were that strong. I'm working on it 😂
I still can't believe Stefano's score. I'd like to test Séb Bouin too!
@@LatticeTraining It's a shame that you guys switched to the force plate for MVC, now i can't compare my self anymore :D
yeah, seb would be wild. Can you imagine him being around 40% and we all realize his technique is impeccable? :D
@@eman1989z you have his MVC, thats basicly deadhang.
If CARCing doesn't sound good what about something like edging? Since you are mimicking pulling on an edge for long periods of time without quite reaching that high intensity zone where you can't maintain.
sus
😂
This is a very good one imho. Another alternative I'd like to suggest would be "Hold Play".
im actively edging while watching this
😂😂😂
I'm honored my desk grips made it into the video!
I love it😂
This is the kind of content we need.
I feel we need more context regarding how effective that increase is relative to other training methods.
Thank for the feedback. I was trying to keep it short where possible but a great point. I'll pin a comment that should add a bit more context to how much my critical force improved by!
Might be good to note that you are talking about percentage _points_, increasing your CF from 31.4% to 38.5% is a 22.6% increase!
Glad I saw this comment, that was very misleading in the video
Now that’s a significant improvement
I am carcing with my right hand since I was a teenager for about once or twice a day. it's noticeably stronger so I guess it works.
Bro
One part getting stronger, another part getting weaker. Sacrifices have to be made. 🫡
how often do u carc tho??? I can't imagine lasting for longer than like 1 hour a day doing this.
I am CARCing while watching this video
same
I’m edging
"Jorking it"
I've been jorking it for 17 hours
For the injury worries I always wonder how manual labour factors in to training like this. I've never seen a construction worker warm up their wrists and hands: we just showed up (hopefully sober), chugged a cup and a half of coffee with the morning cigarette and grabbed the the tools we needed for the day. Then it's 6-12 hours of laying bricks, drilling holes or tightening nuts. Repeat for 5 days a week, ~45 weeks a year, 30-ish years total with generally little to no finger injuries. Quite some messed up elbow, shoulder and hip joints though.
As for a name: call it barking. Barely Aerobic Resistance-training, Kinda.
You also moved your body, arms wrists in various ways before starting intensive work. And not all work on the jobsite is exactly max effort lol. So no real max finger effort = no real finger injuries.
But ofc lots of other injuries like you describe. Likely from not doing movements correctly and never working out for longevity.
@@Monscent honestly, it wasn't uncommon for me to take the bus to work, walk 2 minutes to get to the van, sit and discuss the day before I sat in the passenger seat for an hour. Then when we arrive it's full send immediately, it's not uncommon for hauling stuff off the trailer to be the most risky and intense bit of the day.
Not too speak of the rope access jobs where we're in the car for 4 hours, then have 2 hours for a half day job. The only preparatory movement there is punching myself in the dick for quitting school so soon.
I have joiner friends who are now having grip issues. Basically they can’t fully close their fingers to make a fist due to holding hammers and drills all day every day.
I concur on the elbows. But carpal tunnel isn't great either.
The reason you may not see them get injuries as often is because if they are injured, they will often just work through it. Used to work in a fridge factory. People would take pain meds, use braces, I’d assume some abused worse stuff. It’s easier to work through than if you’re injured and try to rock climb, given that it is a less intense strain on your arms.
I did this for 3 months when I had my first real climbing injury, I used real easy grippers every night sitting watching tv about 100 reps 3 sets a hand, then used the band around the thumb ('hitch hikers enhancement' for those who know arm wresting) for the same reps, and the difference it made to my grip when I came back was insane, and there was a noticable difference to the size of the muscles around my thumb too.
Cars are aid
clothes are aid
arms are aid
Breathing is aid
Nothing like CARCing with the boys.
Just getting grippy with the lads.
"I now have a passionate hatred for this thing!"
Sounds like success to me! :)
Really interesting study and results! Thanks for the effort & great content
The beauty of actually arcing is getting in movement practice with it. So you get technique practice and endurance gains.
Agreed. Just not practical for everyone. As a new dad I only get to the gym 2x a week at the moment and I like to have a short board session when I go. But I'd like to prepare for sport climbing in the autumn and this method gives me hope.
Heh, your results are pretty much spot on wrt what is to expect from doing z2 training. And just use zone 2, everyone uses it already and it's easy to translate into other sports. And also, it IS zone 2 training, so there's that. A few notes:
1. I would be very interested to see what rowing could do as an alternative way of doing z2.
2. Someone projecting hard should - theoretically - more than anyone prioritize z2 training. Enough z2 will improve the ability to recover between attempts and sessions, giving them more bang for their buck. In essence, z2 only make you marginally stronger, but it allows you to become a lot stronger.
3. It's super interesting that there is such an easily available way of doing z2 training for climbing, as reaching a level where you can even do z2 training is quite an effort in itself.
Did this for one day for 20 minutes, had instant inflammation in the carpal tunnel area! I feel like a more isometric type contraction would be healthier, than jiggling those tendons around for such long periods of time. It's a highly repetitive movement, so I feel like others should be careful with this as well.
Good to know your experience with this. I've also been experimenting with much lower times and slightly higher intensity. Currently trying 1 min sets with 1 min rest, 10 cycles in total.
Get the Captains Of Crush! Nothing better. Also, Hand X Band. Great products.
Need a more direct motivation for training your grip? Try 'MARRIAGE' - - especially with children - just a few weeks of 'Married Life' plus 'Parenting' will have you pulling at the trim of your car or any available edge whilst gritting your teeth and suppressing a huge aerobic scream as you desperately try not to 'lose your grip'.
You okay bud? 🥲
Haha- LFG! c’ARC’ing lyfe 💪. If anyone wants to hear more on this- check out my episode with Ollie from a while back. Thanks for donating your left forearm to science to this Josh!
Could you please tell me in which episode it appeared? Please leave a link
th-cam.com/video/ozWO0L1auSI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=3LhgKT5wXKqlzLRe
Link? Would definitely watch. (While carving / micro-dosing.)
Thanks all round.
Although not best for performance, one of my favorite things is to try these odd ball training methods! Keeps things interesting!
I took a hand trainer with me for a 2 week bus round trip. Got me so bad inflammation that I couldn’t boulder for 2 weeks. 😅
After your hand healed how did your bouldering go?
@@egokenny I was noticeably weaker than before.
Worth it
Great video! I use a foam stressball for carcing - doesn't apply equal force to all fingers so i move it about to different positions and pinch it too and the variety makes it less dull and the foam is never sore on the hand. I'm looking for a sitffer one and/or a cylinder next!
Regarding the grip trainer being uncomfortable for long periods, I’ve found that using it backwards (fingers on the side your palm is intended to be on) significantly more comfortable, to the point I would say I have no discomfort over long periods :)
Yes I actually move it back to front and also upside down in each orientation, and with full hand or just fingers. I don't really get though why the 'standard' shape is as it is
Taping the handles is a game changer
Thanks, very interesting, especially on holidays:) 2 remarks:
While you are N=1, you could acquire more samples on your self, therefore get error bars and be able to state the significance of the changes.
Carcing sounds like taking a shit in German, so fully agree
Great video, i think since this helps with holding onto climbing edges for a long time, we should name this "Edging"
Very interesting study, and nicely carried out.
My granddad was doing this at 80years old back in 2005. He wasn't even a climber just a badass
Great video! How did you schedule this around your training days - would you stack this onto the day you were climbing/hangboarding - or add this into the recovery days?
I know this as "grease the groove" by repeatedly doing lower intensity motions
I'm surprised you didn't see and effect of
"The Cross-Education Phenomenon" - Cross education is the process whereby training of one limb gives rise to enhancements in the performance of the opposite, untrained limb.
Was wondering about that too. I’ve read that it’s the cross education phenomenon works best when the movement is more complex though as opposed to simple and monotonous
Carpal tunnel speedrun
100% lol, one way ticket to overuse city
Yep I had this concern. I don't recommend jumping in at 3 hours a week. And I think more appropriate tools probably exist. Rice bucket? But I think if you build up slowly anything is possible. I like the anecdote from a builder in the comments. My volume was nothing compared to what some builders, bricklayer or scaffolders do. Our grip is very adaptable.
2:31 excellent footwork
Starbucks employee: What name should I write on the cup?
Customer: Mark, with a "C."
Starbucks employee: Okay, here's your coffee, Cark.
Maybe call your workout G.R.I.P., or Getting Red In Palm.
left to ride side intervention studies are so good and insightful, and yet too seldom done.
Really fun to see a little controlled experiment done like this with someone who has access to testing facilities
Judging by the drop in power, I'd guess that the main adaptation you achieved was converting a lot of fast twitch muscle fibers to slow twitch.
glad theres a good study to back up my decision to avoid these things for my climbing career. ive had a lot of people suggest to me to check these kind of tools out, and ive always turned them away. ultimately, just like everything else, there is no short cut. to get better at the thing you gotta do the thing. goes with art, exercise, and day to day activities. if youre focused on getting better, noticing the things that are holding you back, and actively working on your weaknesses, youll get better. simple as
Are you referring to this video as the study? If so, how did this video back up your decision to avoid this method?
what is the study?
For various reasons, like many people, I can only get to the bouldering wall once a week.
So something like this may be beneficial.
@LatticeTraining
Attention if you do it every day hundreds of time without stretching every day your forearm muscels the chances are high to get epicondylitis.
I got it and 2 friends of mine too.
It is better to press and hold for 10-20 seconds, 10-50 times with a pause of 10 to 20 seconds.
When I started climbing, my fingers looked really weak. I kind of came up with a similar concept, squeezing a grip trainer around 1000 times per day, most days, and noticed a significant improvement in my climbing. From climbing 5b to my first 6a top-ropes. Intuition says this is more of a thing that would benefit beginners, though.
i would say for beginners, go climbing and no training, maybee some pull ups. If you go from 5b to 6a only with your fingers then work on your technic and footwork and you will go from 6a to 6c lead. I got from 5b to 7b in two years without any Hangboard Session or anything. Now i'm at this point where i need to work for fingerstrenght etc.
Now that one of your arms has a significantly higher critical force than the other, it would be interesting to try one of those 2-handed endurance tests on a hangboard and see the difference in feeling between your arms as you go. An instant comparison of what more critical force feels like!
The control hand also getting stronger might be a demonstration of the cross-education effect!
Awesome work as always, data driven, insight fueled... A thought on this one though...
I think this subject could use a healthy section on repetitive stress injury cause and prevention.
That looks like a cool website you are using for timing your critical force tests at 5:47
I'm going to research this and suggest to add it to my local gym. Very cool
I found taping the handles with climbing tape mostly solves the comfort thing
Soo well explained, cheers for quality video! Also would be very interesting to know if this helps with injury prevention in the fingers.
I've tried this in the past but found it to be hard to keep focus on over time. I've theorized that using a TENS unit on your forearm could have the same impact, but completely passively and no attention required after you apply the pads. If you can set the intensity to contract your forearm muscles correctly I think it could work? Feel free to try it on your other arm and even things back out! 🤣
I’d also be interested in your power based measurements after having a power training phase, when the endurance training phase that had come before it included carcing, since the slower twitch fibers work to give the faster twitch fibers more endurance over the long run
*pumping iron*
Like the arnie movie?
when i bought these things, when i started climbing, i felt like it made my sessions worse, because i somewhat overtrained. in my opinion these training devices doesn't transfer to any griptype, not even pinches. i also bought one with single finger "buttons". this was even worse, the fingers were quite in pain. hangboard still seems to be the king.
Yes totally agree. Not very useful for training climbing strength. But the intention here is to develop a dense capillary bed and more mitochondria, to enhance blood flow and aerobic energy production. This improves recovery and endurance. So you'd only likely notice a difference on long sport climbs or during rest periods.
Oops. I just watch an advertisement without realizing it right away
I’m CARCing so hard right now.
I've used a gyro ball while watching tv with a similar idea in mind - might keep the loads more balanced across flexors, extensors, etc...way more enjoyable and comfortable than a gripper. Powerball Titan is a good one. So if you get tired of CARCing you can play with your powerballs 😆
I remember playing with one of these years ago. Are they not quite noisy? Maybe they have got better since then.
@@LatticeTraining This a is great point - they can be noisy when you rap them up to higher RPMs. This is a good argument for getting the Titan which is heavy and has a lot more resistance...staying below the lactate threshold with that one requires slower RPMs...also nicely built and I do remember it being noticeably more quite when I first upgraded to it from a prior one I had. I had a plastic one that eventually cracked...downside of metal one is it's not gonna be robust to dropping (bend and throw off balance etc). All that said, still gonna make some noise.
let's call it pumping
I would like to see if the difficulty to compress the spring was harder, and you did say 5-10 mins at a stronger grip... Would this also train your contact strength, rate of force development etc.
After all we don't climb for an hour and we need the muscles to move more blood, so if you recreated a slightly more challenging grip what would the results of that look like?
He chose the right arm for the controll arm because it was already ahead in strength. Now he is balanced..
The aim was not to build strength, it was to build endurance.
Fantastic video I’ve got to work out of town and I have to drive for 5 hours so I know what I’ll be doing while driving
I have some TheraPutty on my Desk for playing around and squeezing in calls and so on. THis is quite comfortable, as it is not a rigid training device. Maybe a more comfortable way for "Carcing"
Interesting experiment and fun video, but there are some pretty big statistical issues (I also acknowledge some of the qualifications that were made):
Sample size of one - results aren't generalizable.
Only one measurement before and after for each test (as presented in video) - no account for variability (in arm strength, tiredness, injury, etc, etc).
No randomization or blinding - potential bias.
Using one arm as control - assumes both arms react the same.
Low statistical power - hard to detect real effects.
More participants and multiple measurements would improve reliability.
Sorry for being the fun police :(
This is what you would call a case study if it was done by real scientists.
The purpose is to cheaply and clearly demonstrate the basis for a hypothesis.
Using one side as control is a pretty common method in exercise science.
And the actual change observed would qualify as significant, all things considered.
I feel like every climber already was doing this on long road trips, it’s like, well I am stuck driving for a while and I like to finger train, might as well pull on something in the meantime :)
Is there a way to gauge the statistical significance of these changes? I assume you take the same data for yourself semi regularly. How do the changes compare in general? Or perhaps sig levels aren't even relevant given how variable your training might be long-term?
I think we'd need multiple trials or multiple subjects to calculate statistical significance. Maybe we could determine effect size? But I think it would be misleading in a way, to suggest this is rigorously scientific.
I have done this test a fair amount. But it's quite a brutal test so I have gone over a year without testing. If it helps, the past couple of years I've hovered around the same level of endurance as my pre-test. With work life and being new Dad I've mostly bouldered and not been worried about getting fit. I've been a bit higher (CF) in the past, about 34%. But never as high as 38%. And my previous 34% peak was during a season of sport climbing.
why do you ask for statistical significance if you clearly don't fully understand what it means? Statistical "significance" is not the be all end all even in a scientific studies and it's based on an arbitrary threshold of one of several popular methods of statistical analysis
It should just be called ''arcing", "hand triggering" or "pistol gripping". Can't use edging, which is already taken. Just look it up in the urban dictionary.
But if you do 1h at the time, 3 times a week on your left arm. Doesn't that mean your forearms will be equal in strength and endurance?
I put an old sock around one side of the trainer, so my palm doesn't get red so easily.
Hey Josh, great video! I know you mentioned intensity quantification is difficult but for people who might want to try to replicate, is there some way you can quantify the amount of force you were squeezing against for an hour? Maybe the grip machine has a value for how much force is needed to close it?
I started on the very lowest setting on this devise. I think it might say 5kg but I doubt that is accurate. Because this is essentially threshold training, the intensity will be need to be very individual. It will matter how strong and how fit you are. And these can be quite independent. For example, Jonny Kydd mentioned at the beginning of the vid is WAY stronger than me. But his relative endurance was half what mine was. So I might be training at a higher resistance than him for the same relative outcome.
Something I noticed made a big difference was the cadence too. If I started to get a bit too pumped I just slowed down until it felt right. I think going of perceived intensity is best but it takes some awareness and experience that comes with years of training. A cheap digital feedback tool is the future for this stuff. But I personally don't want an edge, ergonomics is everything when you are using it for 60-90 minutes at time.
I prefer volume to hangboard training, but maybe Ive reached my limits without specific training or better technique. Usually end up injuring a finger or wrist whenever I try to push beyond v8 range. Im curious to give this a try, its easy to fit during the day.
Can you test gooning next?
What level of resistance did you use
Does this work for crack climbing on chose? How about on icy granite cracks ?
i guss these old ems abs trainer belts they used to sell on tv worked the same, right? never even thought they would work until now..
If you use a Ring, you can train both arms at the same time :)
Would a stress ball be a better tool to get blood flow but less pressure on palm? It would also include the thumb.
When I was training for motocross I would run on the treadmill with light weights that had a bit of foam on them squeeze them on/off/on/off as I ran. Damn arm pump.
Good call. I had a similar idea and I am currently using a stress ball 😉
I have a question, was Josh said in the video that one should not pump on the forearm while doing the activity? Or I misunderstood?
Because I think continuous squeezing for an hour leads to pump
Yes that is correct. Do NOT get pumped. This is comparable to a runner going for a light/recover run.
The thumbnail of this video is freaking me out. How is that dude's thumb bent like that??
What is the training protocol? How many sets & reps per day? what is the resistance level?
Passive Aerobic Respiratory Capillary PARCing
Have you tried turning it spring facing you ? I find it more comfortable by fitting better in my palm. But in my case the friction becomes an issue quite early
I did try that. I swapped it around to all 4 orientations quite regularly to change up the position.
PARCing, because you can do it while taking a walk in the park.
I don't think you're measuring the increase correctly, it really is more like +22.6% (38.5/31.4) of your baseline before the training ;)
Thanks for this post! How many KG were you squeezing in your study? Adjustable grip trainers [e.g. 5-60KG] set at the lowest setting (5KG) seem a bit too difficult (to me) for 30 minute ARCing sessions. I must be weak...
It's important you get it really low. Both strength and relative aerobic threshold will need to dictate the intensity you use.
Low Intentisy Target Everyday Training, or LITE Training for short.
Can you suggest me some research about critical force and W' applied to climbing, please? And can you briefly explain me how should I take a climbing critical force assessment?
Here is a great article with research references at the bottom -> strengthclimbing.com/critical-force-calculator/
Are the lattice CF test and the Tindeq CF test relative to each other? For example if he was to test on a tindeq and the lattice setup would the result give a similar percentage?
That's a good question! But I don't actually know. We've never done a reliability comparison between the two methods. But I'd think there is a significant enough difference making comparison fairly unreliable.
Is carpal not a thing?
I'll take more strength/power over endurance every time 💪
What if you could have both?
@@LatticeTraining sure...but my understanding is that an increase in endurance is seen with an increase in strength/power by default, while the opposite is not true. I also RARELY fail from endurance but OFTEN fail from strength/power. 🤷♂
Does it translate to climbing though is it effective i just started getting into armlifts and pinchblocks maybe i can add this too
Can you do it again with grip holding instead of rapid squeezing?
Maybe we should focus on driving when we're driving?
brains don't work like that
Yes absolutely. During a dog walk or watching a movie 👌
im sorry to break it to yall but you're strong enough on climbs. your footwork and efficiency in climbing could do with some work though i'll be real with you. so many of the people i climb with (my friends) are stronger physically than me yet i climb much harder boulders. your strength likely isnt holding you back and hot take but a 60 second deadhang or maybe 90 is probably enough strength to climb at least v7
I'd be curious if you could do the same type of intensity but with a rotating circuit of hand movements to avoid some of the repeptive stress...like have grippers, finger extensors, and a putty ball...I have had some irritation doing the carc'ing with the band is why I ask...or perhaps such a circuit might even yield more improved results it is relates to on the wall climbing as it is more varied...unfortunately/obviously adding more implements makes it less simple to fit into the week.
I agree more thought needs to go into the tools used. I actually want to try it again with a simple foam ball. Like a stress ball. It feels like it would support all the joints and load the hand evenly.
Seems like a lot of squeezing a grip. I have one of those orange 30kg grips. I squeeze it. I found it hard to start, now I can crush it. I wasn't even able to entertain pinching it closed and now am close. --++ Do you think having a manual job might help. Being on the tools all day?? That is like hours of low intensity work
New name... L.I.E.T. pronounced like diet... Low Intensity Endurance Training
Me gustaria probarlo para ver y testar si hay mejoras o perdidas en mi y tener mas ejemplos. Si podrias comentarme como hacerlo un poco mas especifico. Gracias y que grandes video subis.
What I did was ~1 hour, 3x per week. Nothing more complex than that.
@@LatticeTraining perfecto sabes decirme la carga que tenia el aparato que utilizas. Es que como no se ingles, me entero poco y como lo subtitulos no son completamente perfecto pues... jajaja pero sino me enterado mal sigues con tus rutinas normales pero añadiendo esto verdad?
Y muchas gracias por contestar tan rapidoo!
I don't know how the RFD measurement works, but just looking at the data for the 'after' for the carcing arm it's completely flat in the start compared to the other ones and seems very similar once it starts rising. Could it be that the measurement started a bit too early? It looks to me like the whole graph should be shifted to the left.
Good spot. I did see this too and double checked. I believe it is just the graph that is wrong and the measurement was taken from the first upward inflection.
Since CARCing is particularly useful for people too BUSY to ARC on the wall I suggest BARCing as a better name 😂
Ure supposed to use the curve part of the gripper on your palm not on the fingers
1 hour at a time seems excessive. Would be interested in seeing your results if you had just done 20-30 mins, 3 times per week.
Yes I totally agree. I just jumped in that high to see if it would work but not to give advice. We see similar approaches in research because they want to show a large effect size or reach statistical significance. The research that follows should then try to answer how it can be made practical to everyday users or athletes. Like finding the minimum effective dose.
Grippers - at least some - are rated in terms of their difficulty, e.g., the popular Captains of Crush grippers, and a #1 COC gripper is rated at 140 pounds. Is the gripper you use rated in this way?
The type of gripper he has has a screw at the top and you can tighten or loosen the gripper to your preferred resistance level
so if i understand 25,000 reps in a week is
Perday day 1 hour = 8000 reps straight?
difference of open hand and open crimp?
Agreed that this shouldn't be called CARCing. Sounds like a synonym of gooning 🤣