Yes, I love hearing his firing and training knowledge and not just because most everything he says echos everything I heard during training on using and running subgubs, especially the push/pull between the shoulder and offhand.
One of the things i love most about Ian is that, even though he literally knows everything Ken is talking about, he still reacts as if Ken is teaching him something. He does such a great job of standing in for his audience
My uncle fought with the Seventh Army from D-Day to the Rhine. He was one of the assigned guys in his company to carry a Thompson. After about two weeks of humping that around, the firing pin broke and he was able to get an M2 carbine. He never took his eyes off that gun until the VE-Day. He never told me how the firing pin broke but i suspect it wasn't an accident.
Don't know but, according to him, a crate of the first M-2's were delivered to his unit sometime in early August, 1944. He was able to get one, and used to all the way up to VE Day. I know they were used during WWII, mostly in the Pacific, but his story was that some got to delivered to Europe in hopes of getting some testing in winter conditions. He passed on in 2007 so all I have left is the memories of what he told me.
A veteran Thompson was my 'off base camp' gun in Vietnam with the Air Cav. It was lacking the shoulder stock [never did find one for it]. Took it into Saigon many times, using an adapted AR sling. It was heavy, and rather slow firing, and not very accurate [plenty accurate for the alleys, etc in Saigon's shadier sections] but the sheer intimidation effect was quite wonderful. I loved it.
When you say sub machine gun for mobsters or a GI gun they think Thompson. Sometimes guns get their reputation by who carries them. Uzis and Mac10s/11s got their reputation from the cocaine era criminals/narcos. An MP5 screams 1990s/early 2000s swat team. The M60 will always give that Rambo feeling. The AK-47 will scream terrorist gun. For awhile the FN-Fal screamed NATO troops. Weather we want to admit it or not some guns are famous because of movies.
@ Mr Jack , I will forever associate the mp5 to the british SAS & the London Iranian embassy ! As a kid growing up in the 80s , I was awe struck seeing the SAS repelling off the roof & into the windows dressed in black fatigues armed with mp5s..
These talks with Ken are amazing. It's like history in the telling from a man who's knowledge and experience may never be matched. Truly a pleasure to watch. Thank you Ken for everything you've done and thank you Ian for bringing this legend to us.
@@theimmortal4718 The way he acts handling those guns like a movie star definitely lends itself to what you're saying. Not to say he isn't a great range shooter or knowledgeable in history, but the way people talk about is weird reverential.
My dad carried an M1 model Thompson for a while during WW2. He loved it, but like you said, he was a truck driver, not in the infantry. He thought it rather useless in Normandy, as he said the Germans would shoot at them from across a field, and he said he could see his rounds impacting the dirt halfway across the field. He switched to an M1 rifle after that, until they got into urban combat and tried to switch back. All the Thompsons were supposedly requisitioned for the airborne troops, and was issued an M3 "grease gun" instead. He didn't like it, he said because it was "cheaply made" and had , according to him, too slow of a cyclic rate. I asked him why he didn't carry an M1 carbine, and he said that it "didn't hit the Germans hard enough to stop them with one hit". That was his opinion of the available guns. He said he carried a bag with 25 30 round magazines in it (he was a truck driver, remember), not in the infantry. He said that they all loaded 27 rounds in the magazines to make them more reliable.
Sounds like the technology of the war had it's own uphill battle it was fighting, perhaps mostly because people were still relying on WW1 technology at the beginning of it all.
Hmm... I've heard conflicting reports about the Carbine's firepower. I'd imagine your dad probably doubted the power of .30 Carbine beyond close range, while people who say it worked fine probably used an M2 Carbine at closer ranges.
You dad probably never successfully hit his targets with the m1 carbine, so may have had a bad rifle from the factory. The .30 carbine has similar energy to a modern .357 magnum fired from a reproduction levergun, if you hit somebody with that, they'll feel it. I'll doubt the m1 carbine he was issued before his own skills, because if he was pegging hits with the garand then his skills weren't the problem.
I'm always a little jealous of you when you get to see all those beautiful old firearms up close, but not as much as I am when you get to sit down and listen to these old boys tell you the things they know and have seen, positively green.
My family has a Thompson 1921ac as a family heirloom. We've used the same name for 5 generations too. Ernest Sr owned a hardware store in the 20s and bought a few to resell. His son, my great grandfather, Ernest Jr. bought one. Now it's passed to every Ernest, up to me, the 5th.
I'm so jealous of Ian, he gets to go around the world playing with guns and talking with interesting people about something he loves for a living! I wish I had his job lol
Ken is such a font of knowledge. Dude has seen and done so much over his life, it's great to see some of that knowledge getting recorded for posterity.
Ken is brilliant, and partly because he absolutely loves doing what he does. See the fun he has when he demonstrates how vehicle crews entering combat throw the retractable stock. Man, he's having fun and loves the topic. Makes it great long-form content to listen to.
I know a guy missing the end of his left index finger from wrapping it around the barrel of an MP5 , you have to be careful where you put your digits. Another great interview thanks Ian.
Old comment but I'll still put this here: How good is magwell grip on an MP5 and other sub-guns? For safety it makes sense to grip it decently far away from the muzzle. I never fired an SMG before so this is just spitballing.
Thompson truths; all be told, it was WWI technology and philosophy and was more of a stop-gap than legend. The MP40 and M3/A1 were the future of the SMG- an industrial weapon made quickly and efficiently.
The Sten was garbage. The British knew that from the beginning, but it was functional and cheap to make, which was really all that mattered at that point in the war.
MP40 and M3/A1 the future? No. They didnt last 1 war and were outdated in 1945. MP43 or M1 Carbine were the future. In 1920 Thompson and BAR was the future. Cheap SMGs were the need of present day in WWII and were not popular after WWII.
Looks like a nice old guy. But when he starts handling that MP5 and demonstrating the selector technique. You get the feeling this guy could still do alot of damage
Man I’m so jealous you get to sit with Mr. Hackathorn and listen to his insight on two of the most iconic weapons in history. What an incredible experience and thanks so much for sharing. I truly enjoyed it. I like hearing about historically significant guns from folks that not only have personal experience with them but also aren’t afraid to talk about myth debunking design flaws that steal some thunder from their reputations.
These interviews have been absolutely fascinating. Mr. Hackathorn is clearly a well of information, and I, personally, would love to see more videos with him expounding on his collected firearms experience. Great video, keep it up!
75,000 rounds? Now that's one hell of a life. I'd love to have a shooting lesson or three with Ken Hackathon. Especially with this. Also interesting to hear Ken say the SMG's are outdated. Not sure any other man can speak with such confidence. I'm also surprised to see that forward grips came in so early. I thought there were much more recent. This makes me think they were coming in during the 60's. I thought the Steyr AUG was the first real weapon to get it. Sounds like I have some research to do.
Let me amend it to infantry scale, standard issue equipment. Chauchat wasn't the standard issue or an infantry rifle. Automatic rifle, sure, not the standard issue Berthier, Lebel. So in this case I think we've got a Soviet weapon that did it first, for the standard issue weapon. Austria only adopted the Steyr in the 70's from memory. Late 70's?
> It's been an idea almost since the conception of automatic weapons Oh, exactly! We forgot about Fedorov Avtomat :D Although... Was it really a grip? Looks a bit too close to the magazine.
Thanks for another wonderful interview with, Mr. Hackathorn, Ian. The man does not throw any punches and probably would have told Col. Thompson straight to his face. I would enjoy spending a whole day, just watching and listening to you both talk the good and bad of a variety of weapons. First case of ammo is on me.
Another wonderful interview. Thanks for doing these Ian: Ken's insights really are a treasure trove of information. Some kids out there have one badass grandpa.
I love how Ian is so engrossed in what Ken is saying. You can tell he respects him a lot and is genuinely interested in what he’s got to say. As I would be in the presence of a man like Ken, incredibly knowledgeable and would he amazing to pick his brain for even 15 minutes!
Back in the Canadian army, we were doing some training in the US, and on my downtime, I went out to a range and rented a Thompson. It was heavy as hell, but the gun felt so incredibly solid, and the way it thumped against my shoulder was so satisfying, I thought "Ah, this is what being an American feels like" (I then rented an AK, which was janky as hell, with a recoil pattern that stumbled all over the place and though "Ah, this is what being a commie feels like")
The H&K MP5 in Spain still in use by the Armada's Combat Divers, the Guardia Civil SRTs and the National Police aswell as some regional police corps; but they're replacing it with UMP9s. That thing of have the stock outside the shoulder was also the way to go with the CETME L; everyone i know that worked with the MP5 say that's a reliable, accurate and confy to shoot and carry weapon.
Working at the Browning museum I never told anyone they were wrong to carry one... But I always told them Browning himself made the High Power to be superior in every way. So if you want an original Browning design for carry, get a high power, it is the best pistol he built period.
Put a Franklin HK-C1 trigger in the HK SP5/MP5 n fall in love with the semi n binary trigger with pictograms. So happy I found one. If you're looking for the veryyy best collapsible Brace/Tailhook combo go with a KES hands down the best n 4 position Brace/Tailhook combo. Custom Smith Manufacturing also does good work, but its fully in or full out. I use vests n heavy coats so I love my KES Brace/Tailhook assembly. Check em out, you'll love the quality of craftsmanship. I will buy another for a future build I am going to build. Use the technique Ken demonstrates for the selectors operation. I love my first HK SMG.
Another excellent video, Ian. Your skills as an interviewer have certainly improved over the years. This is the kind of Forgotten Weapons content I love, please consider doing more.
Another awesome interview. The era of the SMG may be coming to an end, but at the end of the day a chunk of metal flying at you at sufficient speed is still going to hurt. They'll stick around for some time. They still have their uses as more efficient suppressed weapons, only really surpassed by rifles using cartridges expressly designed for subsonic use like .300BLK and 9x39mm. Also, what we Americans might call machine pistols such as the MP7, MP9, etc. are still going to have a niche because they're smaller than any carbine. Good for anyone who needs to conceal an automatic, work in extremely confined spaces, or who just feels like carrying one like a handgun.
Met Mr.Hackathorne in the most awesome of places, on sandhill in bootcamp. He was in full uniform for another engagement and just walked through our platoon evening mess formation! Totally badass! DS's were all puppy eyed, we didn't know why at the time. 2/58 Charlie Co. Summer 04. Love of country.
The Thompson is the only machine gun that I’ve shot so far. It was amazing comfortable to shoot. On the range it’s great because the weight keeps the recoil manageable for a mag dump. And yes the machine gun smile is a real thing.
Hear hear! We like ol' Mr. Hackathorn. Welcome back anytime! It's great listening to that kind of back and forth. It adds flavour to a great channel, that's what it does.
The MP-5 was for a time, the defacto weapon of all SWAT and counter-terrorism teams. The SAS loved them. They were the first to train in a kill house. After their success in the London embassy takeover, Maggie Thacher inspected the unit and was so impressed by their skill that she volunteered to take the role of a hostage in the kill house. They burst in and shot the hostile dummies that were next to the table she was sitting at. Then the lights came on. She calmly got up, picked up her purse and told her aide, who was curled up next to her chair to please get up and stop shaking because he was embarrassing her. The SAS had a lot of respect for her after that, and she became their ally.
Loving the series with Ken. He has a wealth of experience, and it shows. I remember reading him extensively in the gun press in tbe 80's when he was a SWAT guy. In the early years of my LE career, i was fortunate to be able to get in a little practice with a couple of MP5's, incl the SD model. I had never fired a full auto weapon before. Beautiful gun, well made, extremely smooth, and quite accurate. Controlled bursts were easy, and the groups were fairly small at 15 yards or so. It definitely impressed me. If i as a novice SMG shooter could get results like that, clearly the gun worked well. Shortly after that, i got some experience with the Beretta M12, as my agency got 2 of them. Decent gun, reasonable accuracy, good control. 2 round bursts were the norm due to the cyclic rate. You almost had to think about it to get a 3 round burst. Not as smooth as the MP5, and it had the limitations inherent to open bolt designs. The folding stock was excellent, and locked very well. I always liked them, but i liked the MP5 better. There is still some SWAT use of SMG's, and i hear the Kriss is seeing some use. As Ken points out, 3-5 simultaneous hits in the boiler room will put someone down and out just as well as 1 or 2 good hits from a rifle. Saw a helicopter video of a SWAT incident somewhere in GA years ago. SWAT deputy was going from rear to front of house where there was a barricaded subject. Unkown to him, suspect comes out the front, armed, and toward the side the deputy is coming up. They almost run into each other at the corner of the house. Deputy us able to quickly respond and spray the guy with a long burst, about 8 rounds, and it looked like they all hit. Perp goes down like he was poleaxed, and was never able to raise his own long gun. The SMG still has a place. I know of some agencies which use them (semiauto only i think) in lieu of shotguns because they are lower profile in a car, and can be out of sight on a floor mount. Interesting idea, but the shotgun is more versatile and more powerful. Might have some value in detective or admin cars though. My idea for a spacesaver trunk gun or motor gun was an MPX in an 8" SBR configuration in.......wait for it.......357 Sig. Best possible ballistics from a gun that size. Anyway, great video as always. Thank you
I still see a future for high end subguns as suppressor hosts for covert ops. They have subsonic cartridges while maintaining sufficient bullet mass to provide lethal hits, subsonic .30 cal (.300bo and .308) rounds arent that much more effective than a smaller pistol cartridge fired out of a light and compact weapon (even lighter and more compact than the assault carbines) and although the argument can be made for the versatility of switching mags for supersonic cartridges to extend the range in a pinch, there is not much need with modern counter terror ops where the parameters of the mission are usually pretty restricted. Maybe do something on inrange comparing a rifle with subsonics and a suppressor to a pistol cartridge carbine using the same stuff. I know Id be interested to see the result.
They already did that - by using the same gun as the enemy they are supposed to engage. If you're talking about Green Beret type of covert ops, blending in is the greatest thing they would to. SOCOM-wise or Navy SEAL's wise, an M4 is sufficient enough for the job. The only sort of people who would use a very silent gun are assassins.
They also won't go out of use with police units around the world as well, simply due to the perceived escalation that a switch to assault rifles would bring. In the US this might be considered normal, but even seeing police units with SMGs patrolling on special occasions will be considered over the top by most people there - now imagine if someone tried to establish assault rifles for that job... Additionally, there is rarely a deployment for police units, where an assault rifle would prove useful enough over an SMG to make the investment in weaponry and logistics (you suddenly have an additional calibre that needs to be managed, whereas your standard MP5 uses the same ammunition as all the other service pistols) worthwhile. All that additional cost for a weapon that doesn't really do anything better in most police roles than the existing weapons is kind of hard to sell. Not to mention that modern weapons like the MP7 manage to outdo assault rifles in most police applications, making a switch in that direction much more desirable.
The UK is actually a bit odd in that regard, as it seems to follow both the Australian model on basic threat assessment (sending their officers out without lethal weaponry), while also escalating to American standards pretty easily. There's also the difference to most of Continental Europe, in that the UK doesn't assign normal patrol duties to their special police units (e.g. France's equivalent to SWAT outside of the GIGN are basically just normal officers with a bit of additional training and special equipment, who generally perform normal police duties until called upon). So equipping these units with military grade weaponry makes more sense, because they don't perform many other roles.
As a kid, I remember idolizing special forces armed with MP5’s and Glock 17’s. Those guys were in their 30’s and 40’s when I was a kid. Now, I’m grown up, those modern weapons are now obsolete, and I carry a 9 mm the size of a single stack with a 15 round magazine and train with guys in their 60’s and 70’s who used the MP5 in service. It’s surreal and kind of poignant to watch how things change.
I actually DO have experience with the M1 Thompson in combat. I was in the U. S. Navy during the Vietnam War, and was on several missions there. At the time the M16 had been introduced, and there were severe reliability problems with them in combat. I have seen the results of this firsthand. I chose to use the Thompson, which the Navy still had in issue. Mr. Hackathorn is right about many things. It is not a light weapon, and it is not very accurate at long ranges. For the close range jungle warfare I was involved in I found it an excellent weapon. It also had the advantage of firing the same ammunition that my M1911 sidearm used, so I carried bricks of the stuff. I had the 30 round mags, and would reload them whenever I had a chance. I set it for single fire rather than full auto, it would eat up a mag too quickly otherwise. As I said, I found it to be a reliable weapon, and ideal for the situations I was in.To be honest, the AK47 was probably better than either the M16 or the Thompson for such a role, but we couldn't carry them because often we were shooting at sounds, and if you had an AK, you became a target of friendly fire. To this day, I won't use an AR-15, or any of the modern style weapons that look like an M16. I won't say they are not fine weapons today. They just give me too many bad memories. Because of this I prefer the Ruger mini-14 for a 5.56/.223 round weapon.
Powell Mountain Mike I wonder how many veterans like yourself who had to use the original M16s don’t want to use AR platforms because of their experiences with them in that conflict, but versus at least acknowledging that in their current state that the AR platform is amazing, choose to just talk trash on it. I certainly understand not liking them based on bad memories (I hate hospitals and funeral homes) but at least you have the honesty and the knowledge that the design has been improved. Fair winds and following seas!
@ Powell Mountain Mike - I know a handful of Vietnam War combat veterans, guys who were Army or Marine infantrymen - plus one "greenside" Navy Corpsman (Marine's Doc) - and not one of those guys cared for the M-16. They all preferred the M-14 or something else to the "Mattel Gun" - which they also called "the poodle shooter," too. And some other salty things I won't repeat here. I turned fourteen in 1975, so I didn't go to SE Asia, but these men - all maybe 5-10 years older than I am - went and came home with those experiences. I had - and still have - a ton of respect for the men who fought that war. I'm just a civilian who studies military history, but I sure can't think of a less-hospitable place in which to fight a war. Glad you made it home....
The Thompson is heavier than the Garand but also shorter, so the center of mass is closer to your body on the Thompson. As a result, the Thompson might feel lighter when you're holding it but heavier when you're carrying it on your back.
Smartassdroid Right, I like my guns a bit on the heavy side just because it increases the follow-up shot capability but when I shot the Thompson, I really didn't notice much recoil. It was very steady and had the recoil of maybe a little more than a .22 magnum? Something like that.
"the soldiers who carried the Tompson would have been far stronger and fitter than the average shooter today, so weight isnt an issue." I don't care how fit you are, when you're carrying all your weapons, ammunition and equipment around all day in stressful conditions, weight sure as heck is going to be an issue. That's a large part of the reason that M1 Carbines ended up in front-line combat roles they weren't designed for.
The Uzi is heavier than a G3A3 or G3A4 battle rifle even empty, much less loaded. SMGs are *not* light weapons. On the positive side, the combination of heavy weight and low-energy cartridge is what makes them so controllable in full auto.
I was fortunate to hold a Thompson at a gun show in Pennsylvania in 2013. They are heavy like he said they are. The guy who owned it said to me and my father when we held took turns holding it " that's when men were real men". cool gun. Keep up the good work on the channel Ian.
JMAN1997 In almost every way too, down to the iron sights, construction, ergonomics, controls and picatinny rails that come standard. I think Ken is exaggerating a bit when he says the MP5 is the pinnacle and perfection of SMGs. The MPX comes very close as perfection and probably as good as it's gonna get when it comes to 9mm.
I think his point was that, past the MP5, every current development is a needless development into a class of weapon that's dying out. Plus you've got diminishing returns now, there has been no real major improvement except for lightening and cheaper manufacture. But even then, the MP5 isn't that heavy anyway and it's a long established platform so it's still more expensive to build, but the new guns are more expensive to purchase. Basically with modern updates the MP5 is still close enough to peak requirements that there's no need for a new platform.
These kinds of videos are so PRECIOUS. It is a very good point that he makes about the low shoulder stock. If you take a look at Suomi KP or soviet alternatives, you can see how much higher it is, so you get a better sight picture.
I think he feels that the MP5 was the best SMG that was ever relevant. Newer round-nosed SMGs are less relevant in military and maybe even police duty with the advent of SBRs and armour-piercing PDWs.
An old Officer from the Kokoda Track told me that the Thompson was bloody heavy and they left the drum magazines at the bottom of a creek because they rattled too much .He loved the .45acp as it took a charging Japanese soldier "over backwards with one shot" whereas the 9mm took 3 or 4 hits .They were fighting Japanese marines who were big men .consider myself very lucky to have had him tell me tales of this campaign .
I've probably told you this story before, but my father's favourite weapon (he was in the British 8th Army - 'Desert Rats' - during WW2) was the Thompson 1928. BUT, he was second line (supplies) AND liked it because he was a huge Jimmy Cagney fan and loved American gangster movies! :D
@Shadowlogic420 The 420 part of you name explains everything. I own and shoot an MP5 (factory not a cobbled together semi-auto clone). It is more impressive in video games than in-person. My Thompson is heavier, bulkier and not made by the "can do no wrong because everything made overseas is better" crowd, but it is much more impressive on target than the 'P5. Enjoy.
I like this guy, no BS outlook on them. Myself I like the Thompson, LOVE the MP5, but will always love the UZI more. As for the MP5, I keep the A3 stock on for coolness but often at the range will swap to the fixed stock, or on those real cool days put the cap on for no stock. I even have a drop leg thigh holster for it. Talk about worthless lol having a MP5 on your leg may look cool but its so not fun.
You're right about the image of the Thompson. I remember seeing some footage from WW2 of a soldier standing and riding on the back of a tank with a cigar clenched in his teeth and Thompson on his hip and all I could think was how badass that soldier looked, like something out of Hollywood.
its a shame the mp5 is on its way out as its among my favorites as well, it has a good balance its reasonably controllable and the ergonomics is also good from my point of view. could its deroute have something to do with its ammo type beginning to show its age. 9x19 parabellum is old so my question is how does the ballistics hold up today compared to other more modern pistol cartridges or FN 5.7×28mm i know its no contest if you compare it to 5,56x45 nato (.223)
i am thinking more about raw stopping power, what kind of hydrostatic shock modern pistol cartridges makes, compared to 9x19 parabellum but thanks for the answer anyway. i know the stats of 5.56x45 nato because my former service rifle used that ammo type
I recommend you watch some of paul harrell's videos, he makes by far the best caliber comparisions ive seen yet, including demonstrating bullet effectiveness on meat target's build to closely simulate a real human torso.
yes they did make a 10mm version of the MP5 and also one in 40 S&W. the 10mm version was used by the FBI for some time, Larry Wickers did make a good video with the 10mm MP5 some time ago. i dont remember the exact reason why H&K suspended the production of that model but i seem to rememeber something about it not selling very well.
I can see why Ian as a lefty would think of the Thompson as meh more so than most. That mag catch is very weird to actuate when firing from the left shoulder.
My dad carried the Thompson as an MP at Arlington Hall in D.C. (Army intelligence headquarters) during the Korean War. He walked the perimeter day and night carrying that beast with a 1911 on his hip. A small price to pay for staying in the states and not going to that hell hole.
Is it possible that some of the motivation behind extremely short carbines in rifle calibres taking over from SMGs is the increasing difficulty of legally justifying or explaining the use of fully automatic fire? It seems to me that the advantages of the carbine are significantly magnified if you're only firing singles.
One of the main reasons is body armor. When the regular police calls for units that are trained with automatic weapons, then the 'targets' are professional enough to have Kevlar.
I get that, but my impression is that full-auto fire from say a 10.5 or less carbine is quite staggering compared to 9mm SMG from an even shorter barrel. I do understand the range and effectiveness limitations of pistol cartridges, even SUPER hot loaded 10mm or magnum revolver rounds are weaksauce compared to basic 5.56 in almost every way. Equally, not sure I'd want to bust down a door into a small room expecting to be firing bursts from an ultra-short AR.
James Healy Full auto isn't used all that much, it's a last resort 'ohshitohshitohshit' moment application. Otherwise SWAT teams/the military are going to be using semi-automatic fire.
Another thing to recognize is simplifying the manual of arms. For military and law enforcement in the US, it’s a lot easier to justify issuing an AR-15 in a PDW configuration to replace the SMG because most soldiers/officers are already familiar with the AR-15/M-16 platform. You save in training costs by not having to teach them a new manual of arms, can use the same ammo, magazines, and many parts, and the only difference really is don’t expect to the same accuracy past 200 meters with a 10.3 inch barrel that you used to get with a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel.
A common manual of arms is certainly a good point, though I don't see any reason someone legally enabled to do so couldn't buy AR-15 derivative SMGs chambered in 9mm. AR-9's perhaps (though I recognise the bastardisation of the naming principle here)?
You can really tell Ken and Larry Vickers are good friends.. they say the same things, the way the move and communicate is the same. The 50% rule he covered and you can see the “seat the mag and pull to confirm” the confidence in what he is doing.. crazy how two people can be so alike
Finnish police use routinely semiautomatic MP5s. They replaced shotguns which were seen too deadly after police in the 1990s killed two people with them.
That doesn't really make any sense. If taking suspects alive no matter the circumstances is your overriding priority; either forgo firearms altogether, or keep the shotguns and load them with bean bags.
What if you need to kill instead of just stopping them non-lethally? Beanbags are not good for that and don't even try to suggest rainbowloading. Also the finnish police is very different to american in it's way of using force.
My dad carried a Thompson in the 11th Airborne on Luzon. He was humping that heavy thing all over the place. This may be why he told me he didn't fight WW II only to see his son join the army. Thanks for great video that dispels a lot of myths.
14:40.... Gun jesus I LOVE YOU.. I always tell the M1903 fanboys.. The M1917 is the BETTER gun. As I always say, in ww1.. The M1917 did all the fighting, but the M1903 took the glory.
TheKodiak72 actually the SMLE and Lebels did most of tbe job and you guys helped with the final push in 1918, but i get your point about the 1903 and the 1917..excellent rifle the 1917 and supposed to have replace the SMLE.
The thing with the M1917 is that its main advantage over the M1903 was the sights, and the ordnance people were in love with the M1903 sights. They carried them over from the Krag, and they even replaced the '17-style sights on the BAR with '03-style ones. Because of this, I'm pretty sure that had the M1917 had become the main service rifle, it wouldn't have been long before somebody said: 'Great rifle! Now, let's put some decent sights on it...'
Ian made my morning with that comment. I own an M1917 and honestly it's one of my favorite rifles to shoot. Honestly I've only ever held a 1903 but it just didn't feel right. The 1917 just does everything, well besides weight I suppose, so well. I really need to go shoot it again.
M-3's were used on D-day . My very good friend came in on a glider and the pilot had a Greesegun and on landing dented in the side of the gun . He didn't know that till a couple of days later when he needed it !
My Dad came ashore Normandy carrying a BAR. Promoted to Squad Ldr, had M1. Picked up a Thompson in Germany because they did a lot more house clearing. Said it was a 1928A1. Loved it's effectiveness, hated it's weight.
MP 5 also a heavy gun, submachine guns in general are limited guns. I carried the semi auto MP5 variant and hated it. I like shooting Thompsons, I find them controllable. But, no way would I pay what people want for any of them/
The US came out of WW2 with over $300B in debt from the $20B from WW1. The US "paid" for those bombers in revenue generated from increased taxation, bonds and loans from banks.
In the 1930's they ARE cheapskates because it's in the Great Depression. It's the single primary factory why the .276 Pedersen wasn't adopted with the M1 rifle as switching to a new round is a VERY expensive proposal in a country that is trying to beat unemployment with ALL means it sees fit, even throwing money.
3 7 sadly military procurement in any country is an absolute con job...i know from bitter experience in UK Forces and MOD. Its a disgrace!always has been and still is!
3 7 you're literally just talking out of your ass here. Is that a true statement? Yes. The Thompson is not an example of this. The Thompson was expensive as shit to produce, precisely why it was being replaced with the grease gun
That opinion is a bit short sighted... the US still has lots of pricey cutting edge military equipment, especially compared to the rest of the world....
And I shot one ONCE! A 21/28 overstamp. The springs in the drums (there were 2) were shot so I had to use the 20 rnd boxes that came with it> Nice commercial hard case. Cutts comp worked. As a novice I had no trouble keeping 3-5 round bursts on target! HEAVY!
THE MASTER......
Please make as many videos with Mr. Ken as much as he’ll allow...
Most if not all of us support this comment ☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️
Please I could listen to this man ramble about guns all day
Yes, I love hearing his firing and training knowledge and not just because most everything he says echos everything I heard during training on using and running subgubs, especially the push/pull between the shoulder and offhand.
Hopefully he is in AZ also
just the way he handles the gun, dude has finess
One of the things i love most about Ian is that, even though he literally knows everything Ken is talking about, he still reacts as if Ken is teaching him something. He does such a great job of standing in for his audience
That mp5 fits in his hands like a glove. You can instantly tell he has handled that firearm for countless hours
I like Ken, he's fun to listen to
Daniel Foland He's like the grampa of gun nuts. And so is Hickok.
My uncle fought with the Seventh Army from D-Day to the Rhine. He was one of the assigned guys in his company to carry a Thompson. After about two weeks of humping that around, the firing pin broke and he was able to get an M2 carbine. He never took his eyes off that gun until the VE-Day. He never told me how the firing pin broke but i suspect it wasn't an accident.
M2 carbines were available a few weeks after D-Day? Lol. Ok
Had to have been a M1 Carbine. M2s we're fully-auto and used in Korea.
Don't know but, according to him, a crate of the first M-2's were delivered to his unit sometime in early August, 1944. He was able to get one, and used to all the way up to VE Day. I know they were used during WWII, mostly in the Pacific, but his story was that some got to delivered to Europe in hopes of getting some testing in winter conditions. He passed on in 2007 so all I have left is the memories of what he told me.
Sar Jim should have found himself a mp 40 then he’d have a real smg.
Proof or it never happened, probably never happen.
Watching Ken reload that MP5 is kinda amazing. The guy looks about 70 but that muscle memory is so smooth and fast it's like butter on glass.
A veteran Thompson was my 'off base camp' gun in Vietnam with the Air Cav. It was lacking the shoulder stock [never did find one for it]. Took it into Saigon many times, using an adapted AR sling.
It was heavy, and rather slow firing, and not very accurate [plenty accurate for the alleys, etc in Saigon's shadier sections] but the sheer intimidation effect was quite wonderful. I loved it.
When you say sub machine gun for mobsters or a GI gun they think Thompson. Sometimes guns get their reputation by who carries them. Uzis and Mac10s/11s got their reputation from the cocaine era criminals/narcos. An MP5 screams 1990s/early 2000s swat team. The M60 will always give that Rambo feeling. The AK-47 will scream terrorist gun. For awhile the FN-Fal screamed NATO troops. Weather we want to admit it or not some guns are famous because of movies.
@@MrJack1992 and the p90. STARGATE sg-1 baby
@@MrJack1992 1000%
@Reinhard Heydrich for soviets it would be bakelite mags all the rail gear and full body armor to describe the Russian police units.
@ Mr Jack , I will forever associate the mp5 to the british SAS & the London Iranian embassy ! As a kid growing up in the 80s , I was awe struck seeing the SAS repelling off the roof & into the windows dressed in black fatigues armed with mp5s..
Im not much of a gun guy myself but I can listen to people talk about the history of things all day long.
And this here is a perfect example of that
These talks with Ken are amazing. It's like history in the telling from a man who's knowledge and experience may never be matched. Truly a pleasure to watch. Thank you Ken for everything you've done and thank you Ian for bringing this legend to us.
Great video. Thanks to both of y'all.
Ken Hackathorn has no combat experience. He was never in combat and got out of the Ohio National Guard as a private. He's a pathological liar.
@@theimmortal4718 The way he acts handling those guns like a movie star definitely lends itself to what you're saying. Not to say he isn't a great range shooter or knowledgeable in history, but the way people talk about is weird reverential.
@@Edeinawc
I agree
My dad carried an M1 model Thompson for a while during WW2. He loved it, but like you said, he was a truck driver, not in the infantry. He thought it rather useless in Normandy, as he said the Germans would shoot at them from across a field, and he said he could see his rounds impacting the dirt halfway across the field. He switched to an M1 rifle after that, until they got into urban combat and tried to switch back. All the Thompsons were supposedly requisitioned for the airborne troops, and was issued an M3 "grease gun" instead. He didn't like it, he said because it was "cheaply made" and had , according to him, too slow of a cyclic rate. I asked him why he didn't carry an M1 carbine, and he said that it "didn't hit the Germans hard enough to stop them with one hit". That was his opinion of the available guns. He said he carried a bag with 25 30 round magazines in it (he was a truck driver, remember), not in the infantry. He said that they all loaded 27 rounds in the magazines to make them more reliable.
Sounds like the technology of the war had it's own uphill battle it was fighting, perhaps mostly because people were still relying on WW1 technology at the beginning of it all.
Hmm... I've heard conflicting reports about the Carbine's firepower. I'd imagine your dad probably doubted the power of .30 Carbine beyond close range, while people who say it worked fine probably
used an M2 Carbine at closer ranges.
You dad probably never successfully hit his targets with the m1 carbine, so may have had a bad rifle from the factory. The .30 carbine has similar energy to a modern .357 magnum fired from a reproduction levergun, if you hit somebody with that, they'll feel it. I'll doubt the m1 carbine he was issued before his own skills, because if he was pegging hits with the garand then his skills weren't the problem.
I'm always a little jealous of you when you get to see all those beautiful old firearms up close, but not as much as I am when you get to sit down and listen to these old boys tell you the things they know and have seen, positively green.
"Ian McCullum nods a lot for half an hour"
lol
Loved the vid
My family has a Thompson 1921ac as a family heirloom. We've used the same name for 5 generations too. Ernest Sr owned a hardware store in the 20s and bought a few to resell. His son, my great grandfather, Ernest Jr. bought one. Now it's passed to every Ernest, up to me, the 5th.
I'm so jealous of Ian, he gets to go around the world playing with guns and talking with interesting people about something he loves for a living! I wish I had his job lol
Ian, I love the interview videos. Very interesting discussions and I always learn a lot! Great job!
The way Ian glances to the camera as he talks makes you feel like you're there with them, like a creepy silent mute.
Or maybe I've had too much weed.
Ken is such a font of knowledge. Dude has seen and done so much over his life, it's great to see some of that knowledge getting recorded for posterity.
Ken is brilliant, and partly because he absolutely loves doing what he does.
See the fun he has when he demonstrates how vehicle crews entering combat throw the retractable stock.
Man, he's having fun and loves the topic. Makes it great long-form content to listen to.
I know a guy missing the end of his left index finger from wrapping it around the barrel of an MP5 , you have to be careful where you put your digits. Another great interview thanks Ian.
Old comment but I'll still put this here:
How good is magwell grip on an MP5 and other sub-guns? For safety it makes sense to grip it decently far away from the muzzle. I never fired an SMG before so this is just spitballing.
Ian, I love the sit down interviews/discussions with Ken and Larry. The transfer of knowledge is invaluable.
Ken Hackathorn needs to become a staple of all your videos. I could just geek out and listen to that guy for hours.
Thompson truths; all be told, it was WWI technology and philosophy and was more of a stop-gap than legend. The MP40 and M3/A1 were the future of the SMG- an industrial weapon made quickly and efficiently.
I’d say Suomi or ppsh
Sten all day
The M3, the PPS, and all other stamped-sheet metal SMG's were the future, the MP40 was still made through machining.
The Sten was garbage. The British knew that from the beginning, but it was functional and cheap to make, which was really all that mattered at that point in the war.
MP40 and M3/A1 the future? No. They didnt last 1 war and were outdated in 1945. MP43 or M1 Carbine were the future. In 1920 Thompson and BAR was the future. Cheap SMGs were the need of present day in WWII and were not popular after WWII.
Looks like a nice old guy.
But when he starts handling that MP5 and demonstrating the selector technique. You get the feeling this guy could still do alot of damage
What a stupid comment... even if you are 9 years old kid it's still stupid and clueless...
@@lulolee5325 Looks like you’re the stupid one, lmao.
I'd really love to hear Ken's thoughts on modern .45acp sub-guns like the UMP.
More of Ken Hackathorn is a good thing...!!!👍🏼👍🏼 love it
Ian *would* be the kind of man who just happens to have an MP5 in his chair.
Man I’m so jealous you get to sit with Mr. Hackathorn and listen to his insight on two of the most iconic weapons in history. What an incredible experience and thanks so much for sharing. I truly enjoyed it. I like hearing about historically significant guns from folks that not only have personal experience with them but also aren’t afraid to talk about myth debunking design flaws that steal some thunder from their reputations.
These interviews have been absolutely fascinating. Mr. Hackathorn is clearly a well of information, and I, personally, would love to see more videos with him expounding on his collected firearms experience. Great video, keep it up!
What an incredible gentleman! I hope that there will be more videos with Mr. Hackathorn. Thanks for the awesome interview!
75,000 rounds? Now that's one hell of a life.
I'd love to have a shooting lesson or three with Ken Hackathon. Especially with this.
Also interesting to hear Ken say the SMG's are outdated. Not sure any other man can speak with such confidence.
I'm also surprised to see that forward grips came in so early. I thought there were much more recent. This makes me think they were coming in during the 60's. I thought the Steyr AUG was the first real weapon to get it.
Sounds like I have some research to do.
The AK AMD-65 tanker version uses another pistol grip as a foward one.
Also the Chauchat :D
Let me amend it to infantry scale, standard issue equipment. Chauchat wasn't the standard issue or an infantry rifle. Automatic rifle, sure, not the standard issue Berthier, Lebel.
So in this case I think we've got a Soviet weapon that did it first, for the standard issue weapon. Austria only adopted the Steyr in the 70's from memory. Late 70's?
> It's been an idea almost since the conception of automatic weapons
Oh, exactly! We forgot about Fedorov Avtomat :D Although... Was it really a grip? Looks a bit too close to the magazine.
Thanks for another wonderful interview with, Mr. Hackathorn, Ian. The man does not throw any punches and probably would have told Col. Thompson straight to his face. I would enjoy spending a whole day, just watching and listening to you both talk the good and bad of a variety of weapons. First case of ammo is on me.
Another wonderful interview. Thanks for doing these Ian: Ken's insights really are a treasure trove of information. Some kids out there have one badass grandpa.
I love how Ian is so engrossed in what Ken is saying. You can tell he respects him a lot and is genuinely interested in what he’s got to say. As I would be in the presence of a man like Ken, incredibly knowledgeable and would he amazing to pick his brain for even 15 minutes!
21:35 ish, when Ian says I can believe that afterwards 😂👍🏼 I can too tbh.
Back in the Canadian army, we were doing some training in the US, and on my downtime, I went out to a range and rented a Thompson.
It was heavy as hell, but the gun felt so incredibly solid, and the way it thumped against my shoulder was so satisfying, I thought "Ah, this is what being an American feels like"
(I then rented an AK, which was janky as hell, with a recoil pattern that stumbled all over the place and though "Ah, this is what being a commie feels like")
But did you fire anything that day that showed you what it was like to chew 5 Gum?
You should have shot the MP40, that's one fine SMG. I won't make any references to what you would have felt like, but it was loads of fun.
Politics aside, comparing a Thompson to an AK.... good gosh man. Entirely different weaponry.
The H&K MP5 in Spain still in use by the Armada's Combat Divers, the Guardia Civil SRTs and the National Police aswell as some regional police corps; but they're replacing it with UMP9s. That thing of have the stock outside the shoulder was also the way to go with the CETME L; everyone i know that worked with the MP5 say that's a reliable, accurate and confy to shoot and carry weapon.
I love these interviews. Ian, please do more of these. Do a long one with Larry Vickers and/or Massad Ayoob.
Carmichael Fong this
This is a particularly interesting video for me, as I live about 5 miles from Thompson's childhood home
I love listening to Ken Hackathon talk. He's the only person who ever made me seriously consider the 1911 for a carry gun...for about 5 seconds.
bigghoss762 A great design. Beautiful lines. But it’s a 100 year old design. And it shows.
Working at the Browning museum I never told anyone they were wrong to carry one... But I always told them Browning himself made the High Power to be superior in every way. So if you want an original Browning design for carry, get a high power, it is the best pistol he built period.
russetwolf13 Well it was the last one so obviously it would be the better design. I have one as well but it's also long in the tooth.
Stop trolling.
boomanh63 He's obviously just trolling. Don't let him suck you in.
Put a Franklin HK-C1 trigger in the HK SP5/MP5 n fall in love with the semi n binary trigger with pictograms. So happy I found one. If you're looking for the veryyy best collapsible Brace/Tailhook combo go with a KES hands down the best n 4 position Brace/Tailhook combo. Custom Smith Manufacturing also does good work, but its fully in or full out. I use vests n heavy coats so I love my KES Brace/Tailhook assembly. Check em out, you'll love the quality of craftsmanship. I will buy another for a future build I am going to build. Use the technique Ken demonstrates for the selectors operation. I love my first HK SMG.
It's so interesting to hear this guy's perspective! I really wish I had the money to get a full auto MP5!
AWESOME interview! Ken is truly an authority on the subject of firearms and to see him on FW is a recipe for a very educational video. Thanks.
I saw the title and built and immediately pitched a trouser tent.
Another excellent video, Ian. Your skills as an interviewer have certainly improved over the years. This is the kind of Forgotten Weapons content I love, please consider doing more.
ho ho ho i got a machine gun
Welcome to the party, pal
Aww, no bullets!
That was actually an HK94A3 mock-up to resemble the MP5, but love the reference ♥️
1971irvin 😂👌 “Thanks for the advice”
Yippie Kay AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
Ken is a walking brain. I am officially jealous! Thanks again for the great content Ian!
Would love to hear Mr. Hackathorns opinion on the MPX line.
Excellent again! Most of us will never touch either arm, but historical and general interest are well served. Thank you!
Another awesome interview. The era of the SMG may be coming to an end, but at the end of the day a chunk of metal flying at you at sufficient speed is still going to hurt. They'll stick around for some time. They still have their uses as more efficient suppressed weapons, only really surpassed by rifles using cartridges expressly designed for subsonic use like .300BLK and 9x39mm. Also, what we Americans might call machine pistols such as the MP7, MP9, etc. are still going to have a niche because they're smaller than any carbine. Good for anyone who needs to conceal an automatic, work in extremely confined spaces, or who just feels like carrying one like a handgun.
Met Mr.Hackathorne in the most awesome of places, on sandhill in bootcamp. He was in full uniform for another engagement and just walked through our platoon evening mess formation! Totally badass! DS's were all puppy eyed, we didn't know why at the time. 2/58 Charlie Co. Summer 04. Love of country.
The Thompson is the only machine gun that I’ve shot so far. It was amazing comfortable to shoot. On the range it’s great because the weight keeps the recoil manageable for a mag dump. And yes the machine gun smile is a real thing.
Joshua Radick. You've gotta try an MP5, they feel amazing to shoot. A lot of rental ranges have them
Hear hear! We like ol' Mr. Hackathorn. Welcome back anytime! It's great listening to that kind of back and forth. It adds flavour to a great channel, that's what it does.
Such luscious beards
The MP-5 was for a time, the defacto weapon of all SWAT and counter-terrorism teams. The SAS loved them. They were the first to train in a kill house. After their success in the London embassy takeover, Maggie Thacher inspected the unit and was so impressed by their skill that she volunteered to take the role of a hostage in the kill house. They burst in and shot the hostile dummies that were next to the table she was sitting at. Then the lights came on. She calmly got up, picked up her purse and told her aide, who was curled up next to her chair to please get up and stop shaking because he was embarrassing her. The SAS had a lot of respect for her after that, and she became their ally.
David Marquardt Cool story bro.
She should be leading Britain today one tough lady and a class act
+David Marquardt what does this have to do with beards?
This is the weirdest thread ever.
Loving the series with Ken. He has a wealth of experience, and it shows. I remember reading him extensively in the gun press in tbe 80's when he was a SWAT guy. In the early years of my LE career, i was fortunate to be able to get in a little practice with a couple of MP5's, incl the SD model. I had never fired a full auto weapon before. Beautiful gun, well made, extremely smooth, and quite accurate. Controlled bursts were easy, and the groups were fairly small at 15 yards or so. It definitely impressed me. If i as a novice SMG shooter could get results like that, clearly the gun worked well. Shortly after that, i got some experience with the Beretta M12, as my agency got 2 of them. Decent gun, reasonable accuracy, good control. 2 round bursts were the norm due to the cyclic rate. You almost had to think about it to get a 3 round burst. Not as smooth as the MP5, and it had the limitations inherent to open bolt designs. The folding stock was excellent, and locked very well. I always liked them, but i liked the MP5 better. There is still some SWAT use of SMG's, and i hear the Kriss is seeing some use. As Ken points out, 3-5 simultaneous hits in the boiler room will put someone down and out just as well as 1 or 2 good hits from a rifle. Saw a helicopter video of a SWAT incident somewhere in GA years ago. SWAT deputy was going from rear to front of house where there was a barricaded subject. Unkown to him, suspect comes out the front, armed, and toward the side the deputy is coming up. They almost run into each other at the corner of the house. Deputy us able to quickly respond and spray the guy with a long burst, about 8 rounds, and it looked like they all hit. Perp goes down like he was poleaxed, and was never able to raise his own long gun. The SMG still has a place. I know of some agencies which use them (semiauto only i think) in lieu of shotguns because they are lower profile in a car, and can be out of sight on a floor mount. Interesting idea, but the shotgun is more versatile and more powerful. Might have some value in detective or admin cars though. My idea for a spacesaver trunk gun or motor gun was an MPX in an 8" SBR configuration in.......wait for it.......357 Sig. Best possible ballistics from a gun that size. Anyway, great video as always. Thank you
I still see a future for high end subguns as suppressor hosts for covert ops. They have subsonic cartridges while maintaining sufficient bullet mass to provide lethal hits, subsonic .30 cal (.300bo and .308) rounds arent that much more effective than a smaller pistol cartridge fired out of a light and compact weapon (even lighter and more compact than the assault carbines) and although the argument can be made for the versatility of switching mags for supersonic cartridges to extend the range in a pinch, there is not much need with modern counter terror ops where the parameters of the mission are usually pretty restricted. Maybe do something on inrange comparing a rifle with subsonics and a suppressor to a pistol cartridge carbine using the same stuff. I know Id be interested to see the result.
They already did that - by using the same gun as the enemy they are supposed to engage. If you're talking about Green Beret type of covert ops, blending in is the greatest thing they would to. SOCOM-wise or Navy SEAL's wise, an M4 is sufficient enough for the job. The only sort of people who would use a very silent gun are assassins.
They also won't go out of use with police units around the world as well, simply due to the perceived escalation that a switch to assault rifles would bring. In the US this might be considered normal, but even seeing police units with SMGs patrolling on special occasions will be considered over the top by most people there - now imagine if someone tried to establish assault rifles for that job...
Additionally, there is rarely a deployment for police units, where an assault rifle would prove useful enough over an SMG to make the investment in weaponry and logistics (you suddenly have an additional calibre that needs to be managed, whereas your standard MP5 uses the same ammunition as all the other service pistols) worthwhile. All that additional cost for a weapon that doesn't really do anything better in most police roles than the existing weapons is kind of hard to sell. Not to mention that modern weapons like the MP7 manage to outdo assault rifles in most police applications, making a switch in that direction much more desirable.
The UK is actually a bit odd in that regard, as it seems to follow both the Australian model on basic threat assessment (sending their officers out without lethal weaponry), while also escalating to American standards pretty easily. There's also the difference to most of Continental Europe, in that the UK doesn't assign normal patrol duties to their special police units (e.g. France's equivalent to SWAT outside of the GIGN are basically just normal officers with a bit of additional training and special equipment, who generally perform normal police duties until called upon). So equipping these units with military grade weaponry makes more sense, because they don't perform many other roles.
As a kid, I remember idolizing special forces armed with MP5’s and Glock 17’s. Those guys were in their 30’s and 40’s when I was a kid. Now, I’m grown up, those modern weapons are now obsolete, and I carry a 9 mm the size of a single stack with a 15 round magazine and train with guys in their 60’s and 70’s who used the MP5 in service. It’s surreal and kind of poignant to watch how things change.
I actually DO have experience with the M1 Thompson in combat. I was in the U. S. Navy during the Vietnam War, and was on several missions there. At the time the M16 had been introduced, and there were severe reliability problems with them in combat. I have seen the results of this firsthand. I chose to use the Thompson, which the Navy still had in issue. Mr. Hackathorn is right about many things. It is not a light weapon, and it is not very accurate at long ranges. For the close range jungle warfare I was involved in I found it an excellent weapon. It also had the advantage of firing the same ammunition that my M1911 sidearm used, so I carried bricks of the stuff. I had the 30 round mags, and would reload them whenever I had a chance. I set it for single fire rather than full auto, it would eat up a mag too quickly otherwise. As I said, I found it to be a reliable weapon, and ideal for the situations I was in.To be honest, the AK47 was probably better than either the M16 or the Thompson for such a role, but we couldn't carry them because often we were shooting at sounds, and if you had an AK, you became a target of friendly fire. To this day, I won't use an AR-15, or any of the modern style weapons that look like an M16. I won't say they are not fine weapons today. They just give me too many bad memories. Because of this I prefer the Ruger mini-14 for a 5.56/.223 round weapon.
Powell Mountain Mike I wonder how many veterans like yourself who had to use the original M16s don’t want to use AR platforms because of their experiences with them in that conflict, but versus at least acknowledging that in their current state that the AR platform is amazing, choose to just talk trash on it. I certainly understand not liking them based on bad memories (I hate hospitals and funeral homes) but at least you have the honesty and the knowledge that the design has been improved. Fair winds and following seas!
@ Powell Mountain Mike - I know a handful of Vietnam War combat veterans, guys who were Army or Marine infantrymen - plus one "greenside" Navy Corpsman (Marine's Doc) - and not one of those guys cared for the M-16. They all preferred the M-14 or something else to the "Mattel Gun" - which they also called "the poodle shooter," too. And some other salty things I won't repeat here. I turned fourteen in 1975, so I didn't go to SE Asia, but these men - all maybe 5-10 years older than I am - went and came home with those experiences. I had - and still have - a ton of respect for the men who fought that war. I'm just a civilian who studies military history, but I sure can't think of a less-hospitable place in which to fight a war. Glad you made it home....
Ian please do more with Ken, Larry and others. Great content. Consider more long form conversations.
Heavier than an M1 Garand??? That's mindblowing, I would have never thought that and I've fired one!
The Thompson is heavier than the Garand but also shorter, so the center of mass is closer to your body on the Thompson. As a result, the Thompson might feel lighter when you're holding it but heavier when you're carrying it on your back.
Cuong Le Yeah, that's a good observation.
Smartassdroid Right, I like my guns a bit on the heavy side just because it increases the follow-up shot capability but when I shot the Thompson, I really didn't notice much recoil. It was very steady and had the recoil of maybe a little more than a .22 magnum? Something like that.
"the soldiers who carried the Tompson would have been far stronger and fitter than the average shooter today, so weight isnt an issue."
I don't care how fit you are, when you're carrying all your weapons, ammunition and equipment around all day in stressful conditions, weight sure as heck is going to be an issue. That's a large part of the reason that M1 Carbines ended up in front-line combat roles they weren't designed for.
The Uzi is heavier than a G3A3 or G3A4 battle rifle even empty, much less loaded. SMGs are *not* light weapons. On the positive side, the combination of heavy weight and low-energy cartridge is what makes them so controllable in full auto.
I was fortunate to hold a Thompson at a gun show in Pennsylvania in 2013. They are heavy like he said they are. The guy who owned it said to me and my father when we held took turns holding it " that's when men were real men". cool gun. Keep up the good work on the channel Ian.
What about SMGs like the UMPs and the Skorpion EVO? And 9mm AR-15 patterns? How do they stack up?
Just Another Videoless Channel I would think an MPX would be superior to this
JMAN1997 In almost every way too, down to the iron sights, construction, ergonomics, controls and picatinny rails that come standard. I think Ken is exaggerating a bit when he says the MP5 is the pinnacle and perfection of SMGs. The MPX comes very close as perfection and probably as good as it's gonna get when it comes to 9mm.
With the advent of things like 300blk there's not much modern need for a SMG. The Scorpion is an excellent suppressor host however I'd pick an SBR AR.
I think his point was that, past the MP5, every current development is a needless development into a class of weapon that's dying out. Plus you've got diminishing returns now, there has been no real major improvement except for lightening and cheaper manufacture.
But even then, the MP5 isn't that heavy anyway and it's a long established platform so it's still more expensive to build, but the new guns are more expensive to purchase.
Basically with modern updates the MP5 is still close enough to peak requirements that there's no need for a new platform.
I think it's more of it is the Pinnacle of SMGs when SMGs were still largely relevant.
I love the guests you have on the show. Ken, Larry Vickers, and Patrick are always a joy to listen to.
Is it good? Up for debate. Is it cool? Hell yes.
These kinds of videos are so PRECIOUS. It is a very good point that he makes about the low shoulder stock. If you take a look at Suomi KP or soviet alternatives, you can see how much higher it is, so you get a better sight picture.
I wonder what his thoughts are on the Scorpion EVO 3.
I think he feels that the MP5 was the best SMG that was ever relevant. Newer round-nosed SMGs are less relevant in military and maybe even police duty with the advent of SBRs and armour-piercing PDWs.
Thank you for this, Mr. Hackathorn is a national treasure.
An old Officer from the Kokoda Track told me that the Thompson was bloody heavy and they left the drum magazines at the bottom of a creek because they rattled too much .He loved the .45acp as it took a charging Japanese soldier "over backwards with one shot" whereas the 9mm took 3 or 4 hits .They were fighting Japanese marines who were big men .consider myself very lucky to have had him tell me tales of this campaign .
I've probably told you this story before, but my father's favourite weapon (he was in the British 8th Army - 'Desert Rats' - during WW2) was the Thompson 1928. BUT, he was second line (supplies) AND liked it because he was a huge Jimmy Cagney fan and loved American gangster movies! :D
Man I'd love to have an mp5 such a bad ass gun.
@Shadowlogic420 The 420 part of you name explains everything. I own and shoot an MP5 (factory not a cobbled together semi-auto clone). It is more impressive in video games than in-person. My Thompson is heavier, bulkier and not made by the "can do no wrong because everything made overseas is better" crowd, but it is much more impressive on target than the 'P5. Enjoy.
Ian it is always a pleasure to see, and hear from someone who knows the right way to use a gun and shows it!
I like this guy, no BS outlook on them. Myself I like the Thompson, LOVE the MP5, but will always love the UZI more. As for the MP5, I keep the A3 stock on for coolness but often at the range will swap to the fixed stock, or on those real cool days put the cap on for no stock. I even have a drop leg thigh holster for it. Talk about worthless lol having a MP5 on your leg may look cool but its so not fun.
How can someone prefer an Uzi over tge Mp5?
Not sure I’ve owned both I sold the Uzi.
You're right about the image of the Thompson. I remember seeing some footage from WW2 of a soldier standing and riding on the back of a tank with a cigar clenched in his teeth and Thompson on his hip and all I could think was how badass that soldier looked, like something out of Hollywood.
its a shame the mp5 is on its way out as its among my favorites as well, it has a good balance its reasonably controllable and the ergonomics is also good from my point of view. could its deroute have something to do with its ammo type beginning to show its age. 9x19 parabellum is old so my question is how does the ballistics hold up today compared to other more modern pistol cartridges or FN 5.7×28mm i know its no contest if you compare it to 5,56x45 nato (.223)
i am thinking more about raw stopping power, what kind of hydrostatic shock modern pistol cartridges makes, compared to 9x19 parabellum but thanks for the answer anyway. i know the stats of 5.56x45 nato because my former service rifle used that ammo type
I recommend you watch some of paul harrell's videos, he makes by far the best caliber comparisions ive seen yet, including demonstrating bullet effectiveness on meat target's build to closely simulate a real human torso.
thanks
Didn't they start making a 10mm version a few years ago? I'm not a gun guy at all but I remember people talking about this.
yes they did make a 10mm version of the MP5 and also one in 40 S&W. the 10mm version was used by the FBI for some time, Larry Wickers did make a good video with the 10mm MP5 some time ago. i dont remember the exact reason why H&K suspended the production of that model but i seem to rememeber something about it not selling very well.
Ken Hackathorn is a talker with a lot to say that I want to hear. Great interview. Thanks
I can see why Ian as a lefty would think of the Thompson as meh more so than most. That mag catch is very weird to actuate when firing from the left shoulder.
My dad carried the Thompson as an MP at Arlington Hall in D.C. (Army intelligence headquarters) during the Korean War. He walked the perimeter day and night carrying that beast with a 1911 on his hip. A small price to pay for staying in the states and not going to that hell hole.
Is it possible that some of the motivation behind extremely short carbines in rifle calibres taking over from SMGs is the increasing difficulty of legally justifying or explaining the use of fully automatic fire? It seems to me that the advantages of the carbine are significantly magnified if you're only firing singles.
One of the main reasons is body armor. When the regular police calls for units that are trained with automatic weapons, then the 'targets' are professional enough to have Kevlar.
I get that, but my impression is that full-auto fire from say a 10.5 or less carbine is quite staggering compared to 9mm SMG from an even shorter barrel. I do understand the range and effectiveness limitations of pistol cartridges, even SUPER hot loaded 10mm or magnum revolver rounds are weaksauce compared to basic 5.56 in almost every way. Equally, not sure I'd want to bust down a door into a small room expecting to be firing bursts from an ultra-short AR.
James Healy Full auto isn't used all that much, it's a last resort 'ohshitohshitohshit' moment application. Otherwise SWAT teams/the military are going to be using semi-automatic fire.
Another thing to recognize is simplifying the manual of arms. For military and law enforcement in the US, it’s a lot easier to justify issuing an AR-15 in a PDW configuration to replace the SMG because most soldiers/officers are already familiar with the AR-15/M-16 platform. You save in training costs by not having to teach them a new manual of arms, can use the same ammo, magazines, and many parts, and the only difference really is don’t expect to the same accuracy past 200 meters with a 10.3 inch barrel that you used to get with a 14.5 or 16 inch barrel.
A common manual of arms is certainly a good point, though I don't see any reason someone legally enabled to do so couldn't buy AR-15 derivative SMGs chambered in 9mm. AR-9's perhaps (though I recognise the bastardisation of the naming principle here)?
Loved this interview. The Thompson M1 has always been my favorite SMG. It was great to hear a more in depth perspective of it.
You can really tell Ken and Larry Vickers are good friends.. they say the same things, the way the move and communicate is the same. The 50% rule he covered and you can see the “seat the mag and pull to confirm” the confidence in what he is doing.. crazy how two people can be so alike
Finnish police use routinely semiautomatic MP5s. They replaced shotguns which were seen too deadly after police in the 1990s killed two people with them.
Okaro X
#ripperoni
That doesn't really make any sense. If taking suspects alive no matter the circumstances is your overriding priority; either forgo firearms altogether, or keep the shotguns and load them with bean bags.
What if you need to kill instead of just stopping them non-lethally? Beanbags are not good for that and don't even try to suggest rainbowloading. Also the finnish police is very different to american in it's way of using force.
Drew Martin Tripping over in stairs CAN kill you faster than a 12 gauge headshot.
I'd still prefer to take my chances with the stairs.
Well yes, but it's less likely to do so. It's not about can the target die or not, but about reducing the chances.
My dad carried a Thompson in the 11th Airborne on Luzon. He was humping that heavy thing all over the place. This may be why he told me he didn't fight WW II only to see his son join the army. Thanks for great video that dispels a lot of myths.
14:40.... Gun jesus I LOVE YOU.. I always tell the M1903 fanboys.. The M1917 is the BETTER gun.
As I always say, in ww1.. The M1917 did all the fighting, but the M1903 took the glory.
TheKodiak72 actually the SMLE and Lebels did most of tbe job and you guys helped with the final push in 1918, but i get your point about the 1903 and the 1917..excellent rifle the 1917 and supposed to have replace the SMLE.
TheKodiak72 the 03 was a glorified target rifle the 17 did the killing !
The thing with the M1917 is that its main advantage over the M1903 was the sights, and the ordnance people were in love with the M1903 sights. They carried them over from the Krag, and they even replaced the '17-style sights on the BAR with '03-style ones. Because of this, I'm pretty sure that had the M1917 had become the main service rifle, it wouldn't have been long before somebody said: 'Great rifle! Now, let's put some decent sights on it...'
Ian made my morning with that comment. I own an M1917 and honestly it's one of my favorite rifles to shoot. Honestly I've only ever held a 1903 but it just didn't feel right. The 1917 just does everything, well besides weight I suppose, so well. I really need to go shoot it again.
@@jic1 03 has decent sights.. then why did the M1 carbine, M1 garand and M14 rifle all copy the m1917
Years later and still good info and content
Really enjoying the video so far, but the sound is not the best
M-3's were used on D-day . My very good friend came in on a glider and the pilot had a Greesegun and on landing dented in the side of the gun . He didn't know that till a couple of days later when he needed it !
Can't whack the Hack!
Its so nice to see ian spend time with his dad.
Someone like you should really invest in a couple of actual clip-on microphones. The sound quality is a real shame! Keep up the good work though.
I have to turn on the subtitles, and still i lose a few words in every part of this interview...
If you watched full video you can't miss occasional "mumbling" effect.
Totally agree. Forgotten Weapons videos are way to good for this poor level of sound.
Try using your phone mic. Headset often pick up too much... they are often too good 😂.
Great solution: Buy studio quality headphones ;)
Wow Ken is so knowledgable. Wonderful discussion.
I have to say that I’m more of a Sterling man myself.
its a pleasure to listen to Ken.
Ho Ho Ho...now I have a machine gun.
My Dad came ashore Normandy carrying a BAR. Promoted to Squad Ldr, had M1. Picked up a Thompson in Germany because they did a lot more house clearing. Said it was a 1928A1. Loved it's effectiveness, hated it's weight.
Hk master race ❤️🇩🇪❤️
One of the best interviewers of ALL TIME because he DOESNT INTERRUPT AND PAYS ATTENTION
MP 5 also a heavy gun, submachine guns in general are limited guns. I carried the semi auto MP5 variant and hated it. I like shooting Thompsons, I find them controllable. But, no way would I pay what people want for any of them/
Great interview Ian. Ken Hackathorn is very interesting, hope you do more interviews with him. Great stuff!
1940 $200= >$3500!!!
You must also take consideration that people and nations were much poorer back then. It was a huge sum.
And inflation. A dollar in those days has much more purchasing power than the dollar of today.
Ohlourdes Padua the number listed IS the inflated amount
Okaro X The “British Empire” wasn’t poor. And judging by our total military equipment output neither were we. One example b17s produced 12,731.
The US came out of WW2 with over $300B in debt from the $20B from WW1. The US "paid" for those bombers in revenue generated from increased taxation, bonds and loans from banks.
I like that, for the most part, Ian can let other people say things he already knows. Something I need to work on!
The U.S. military loves being short sighted cheapskates. "We don't need to update our equipment, the old obsolete shit is just fine."
In the 1930's they ARE cheapskates because it's in the Great Depression. It's the single primary factory why the .276 Pedersen wasn't adopted with the M1 rifle as switching to a new round is a VERY expensive proposal in a country that is trying to beat unemployment with ALL means it sees fit, even throwing money.
3 7 sadly military procurement in any country is an absolute con job...i know from bitter experience in UK Forces and MOD. Its a disgrace!always has been and still is!
"An army marches on its stomach"
3 7 you're literally just talking out of your ass here. Is that a true statement? Yes. The Thompson is not an example of this. The Thompson was expensive as shit to produce, precisely why it was being replaced with the grease gun
That opinion is a bit short sighted... the US still has lots of pricey cutting edge military equipment, especially compared to the rest of the world....
And I shot one ONCE! A 21/28 overstamp. The springs in the drums (there were 2) were shot so I had to use the 20 rnd boxes that came with it> Nice commercial hard case. Cutts comp worked. As a novice I had no trouble keeping 3-5 round bursts on target! HEAVY!
Gold and Silver is real money, all else is credit.
Gold and Silver are horrible investments.