Błyskawica (Lighting bolt), essentially a Polish copy of Sten, wasn't even welded. They used threaded screws, since it was build in conspiracy, as Poland was occupied, using literal piping.
@@Sableagle wasn´t there documentation for how the British Gov in case of a German impendence invasion how to make Sten guns in the average Dads garage by people that have not operate said equipment before. We are talking a small book in thickness(this was not a flyer) whit how to operate most of the more common machining tools, sometime including actual blacksmith level of tech. from a pile of scap to fully functional guns. (not sure what version of sten this would be come).
@@SiPakRubah I guess they had a bit more time to consider creature comfort. Given the choice between something like an Uzi and a Sten i think most people will choose the Uzi, at least given the chance they get to handle the guns first.
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"I know not what Gen 4 will look like but Gen 5 will look exactly like Gen 2." - Albert Einstein
Gen 4 will probably be a nostalgic return to the gorgeous furniture of Gen 1, and mimicries of Gen 1 designs with Gen 3 materials. Gen 5, however, will go right back to 2.
Generation 1: What you make when you've spent the last 30 years obsessing over 1000 yard accuracy and have bolt-action rifles on the brain. Generation 2: What you make when you have to arm a million men by a week-next-Wednesday...
German: holds up MP 38:9 mm, effective to 200 m Russian: holds up PPSh: 7.62 Tokrov, effective to 225 m German: holds up STG: 7.92 x 25, effective to 250 m Russian: holds up AK: 7.62 x 39, effective to 350 m German: good thing World War II was over so we didn't have to face those
@@jonbocz Americans: Hold up Thompson SMG and of course the BAR. Germans: Is that man carrying a portable Machine Gun that just cut a tree down?........nope nope nope nope nope.
"The US Department of Energy decided to adopt a AR-15 derived 9mm smg" Those squirrels have chewed through the power lines for the last time..... (Yeah I know it's for security of power plants, specifically nuclear, but that sentence just seems hilarious to me)
It's not just for power plants. Despite their somewhat misleading name, the DOE is also the agency responsible for the manufacture and maintenance of the US nuclear arsenal and manage all the facilities related to that task, hence the heavily-armed guards.
The Federal Protective Forces are one of the most badass paramilitary forces yet work under one of the least interesting sounding departments. Getting between them and nuclear material is several times worse than getting between a bear and her cub. On a related note, Amtrak has a counter-terrorism force on staff.
DOE also does alot of R&D that one wouldn't expect. For example they are also the ones that perform genetic research. It's just one of those departments that has over time taken on tasks that would otherwise fall under "miscellaneous" (bloat over time when it wasn't worth opening a new department just for that one thing).
@@DeHerg Plant genetics research - the DOE does a lot of work on the environment and ecosystems. Human genetics research is primarily supported by the NIH.
Something I think you missed was the third generations re-shift towards ergonomics. You can see with the second generation, ergonomics are thrown out the door with terrible wire stocks, uncomfortable grips, stuff like that.
@@kalebbruwer yeah, and you can notice this in areas other than in gun design, too. The first decade or two after WW2 were marked by an _obsession_ with making everything as cheap and cost-effective as possible. Even when it flew against common sense. All kinds of weird things happened back then because they wanted to make everything so cheap, going from a craze for crappy processed foods, all the way up to stuff like that one infamous tower block in London which collapsed because they replaced cement with used newspapers in some parts of the building. WW2 really had a nasty effect on people.
Not just third-generation - by the classifications in this video, you see a shift towards better ergonomics in the post-war 2nd-gen, especially once polymer becomes available
@@xxrocketshark216xx4 it's not just about hands being comfortable - ergonomics helps a lot for accuracy and response times. It's more that WW2 was fought with quantity over quality - getting *some* gun into every soldier's hands was more important than getting a *good* gun into half of your soldier's hands. This extended even to design problems that sometimes broke the gun, to tank armor and armament, and all kinds of other issues directly related to combat effectiveness
"The Sten - a bunch of parts that fell off a plumbing truck." Just about right. The SOE supplied French Resistance fighters with plans for the Sten, designed so that any rural workshop could knock one or a dozen up in a barn.
...and you can still build a "Sten" inside the simplest of workshop ... did one in my locksmith apprenticeship, working with 9mm PAK blanks ... the Master was not amused.
Reportedly, the Israeli's made Sten guns in underground workshops, leading up to their 1948 independence ....have one preserved as a museum, which I would love to see.
Long time ago I read that Polish resistance needed to improve some features of STEN, now I know why lol They say that their home made version was more reliable than originals from airdrops.
This is the kind of history that anti-gun people would prefer to see erased. It's possible to engineer a culture that hates guns and loves being ruled, but it's pretty much impossible to engineer a civilization where only the rulers can make guns.
"They're designed largely to be compact, be cheap, and easy to produce. However, I think there is a third generation of submachinegun" *Fade to Gen 3 Title* Me: He's gonna pull out an MP5. *Fade Back In* MP5
What I love about Ian and Forgotten Weapons is that whilst yes, it is fundamentally a firearms channel, it presents much more like a history channel. Other gun channels, on doing overviews of historical firearms/events, would tend to give a lot more gun-centric commentary, talking about things only gun people would know, and sneering at obscure details only said people would know, whereas Ian is much more generalised, whilst retaining that level of detail that allows non-gun people to learn.
The grease gun looks like something someone made in their garage or in a post apocalypse future. Offensively cost effective, is my spontaneous impression.
Sten SMG's are the literal definition of that, they were developed around the time the British had the OH BOTHER! we are getting bombed and are going to get invaded, so it was designed to be made in small workshops (it was however built in the regular ordinance factories) The grease gun was a decision made by bean counters, the thompson was ridiculously expensive, the M3 was designed to be built cheaply but in massive quantities in factories, so its far more refined (and reliable) than the sten.
The Owen SMG is literally "something someone made in their garage". That someone was a random Australian teenager. Ended up becoming one of the ugliest guns of all time and probably the best ever WW2 SMG ever made.
The crowd runs to his feet, begging for any ammo he has, but he simply laughs, for the ammo he has isn’t the 5.56 or 9mm the crowd is wants, he simply keeps walking, and returns to his dwelling, where he has a vault of .32 French Launge
Technically having an _automatic_ gun. Single shot slamfire is probably the simplest you can get, and single shot break actions are pretty damn simple too.
@@joshuahadams I mean, open bolt direct blowback full auto only smgs of the 2. gen basically are magazine fed full auto slamfire weapons, the fasted technological version of hitting a lot of bullets with a nail
I had a choice between an sp5 and an mpx. I chose the latter for the reliable and low recoil short stroke piston, familiar controls, and attachment points. You want a light or optic on your mp5 and you're spending a lot more money. I still want an mp5 but the mpx is just a better, more modern gun.
I'm not so sure about the "civilized age" bit. This is the same time period that men were battling in the mud with pickaxe handles wrapped in barbed wire :(
@@markmonoton6224 Yes, I'm aware of that :D I'm a big Star Wars fan. On the other hand, WW1 could be a hideous hellscape of techno-barbarian slaughter at times..
@@euansmith3699 I think the Interbellum period was the last gasp of the civilized period from before World War I. This world has been ugly, crass and without class ever since, which would be acceptable if we were as free as we think we are, but we aren't. So saying the submachine guns we for a more civilized age is true, from a certain point of view, and I'd argue from the objective
I feel like there should be a 4th generation called “Experimental” or something, where the SMG requirements for a lot of militaries got really niche and narrowed down to where SMGs had to have really different calibers and operating systems, it would be post 1980’s and would have guns like the MP7, P90, and Vector
Was about to say something similar. I know technically that PDWs are their own class of weapons, but they also seem like a candidate to be the 4th generation of SMG.
In my opinion they are experimental and very different to other SMGs but also eachother and that is precisely why they don't get their own "generation". There are barely any consistent defining features to them all and so it doesn't make sense to group them together in the way that Ian are defining the mainstream development of the SMG in this video.
It's arguable. I was thinking the same thing - we have a number of modern guns that fit in the SMG category, but are not clearly developed on something older. A reinventing of the wheel, as it were. Many of them have become iconic, but as we are in the middle of that 'generation', it may be too soon to say. This may be something that needs another ten or twenty years to determine if it is a real change in development, or just some interesting flukes along the way.
@@andrehashimoto8056 no one wants to be the one that says that pdw = smg = machine pistol = yada yada. But for me, if it shoots a pistol caliber and its kind of semi compact = smg
Gen 1: special made on order for limited use, High quality craftmanship. Gen 2: I crap basket we need to toss everything and the kitchen sink at the enemy make the Gen1 version but make 10.000.000 of them as fast as possiblem, but no later then next Friday. Gen 2 post war: okey we can breath a bit as we got stocks of Gen 2 but they are ugly and almost as dangerous to the user as to the enemy fix them, take some time, still keep the cost down. Gen 3: we can now actually design a good mass producible SMG, we can now spend time designing and testing them before sending them to the factory to be made in the 10.000 a day.
Gen 1:expensive milled and hand crafted parts by machinist and capenters Gen2:mass produced stamped parts mostly short life spam Gen2+:More precious stamping , more milling and liberal use injected aluminum and plastic parts. Gen3:Computer aided design and manufacturing and CNC tools precision that an human being hard to achieve.Rifle adopted repeading mechanisms
WW1: "SMGs are for the elite infiltrator troopers, they should be finely made!" WW2: "Give literally everyone an SMG, even tankers get SMGs! Just slap some tubes together, I want BULK!" Cold war: "SMGs are for the elite infiltrator troopers, they should be-... hang on, let's at least be moderate in our quality this time around. What about the tankers, you ask? Well, they can keep their stamped pea-shooters, no problem."
Yeah, I was wondering where a pdw would fit in. While you could classify them as a different type of weapon, but they fill a similar role to the smg, if not the same role.
@Zach Comstock you can state that for any firearm. We give them designations as machine guns, smgs and rifles because they fit certain roles or have certain qualities. Don't be an idiot.
@@timthorson52 I mean yes and no, there are guns made clearly for hunting for food, and guns made for Assault, pretty much any gun can be used for self defense sure but, I think using a Punt Gun for self defense or Guarding your home with a 4-bore would be just a little bit less practical than a purpose built weapon meant for personal defense.
Here in Denmark, the resistance actually made Stenguns (known as BOPA-guns) in the workshop of a bicycle store. The only part they could not make was the barrel - these were supplied by air-drop from England. An air-drop container could hold many more barrels than complete guns, making it a viable way of supplying arms to the resistance.
@@RamonInNZ You betcha we did, like IKEA doing a fighter bomber kit. The Mosquito was one of the best planes of WW2. BTW my high school (like most others) lost its wrought iron fence in WW2 for use in the war effort
The IRA and other groups also made some heaters from spare parts and had workshops dedicated to that purpose. Seriously, if you're in a place that restricts your options for hardware don't get a 3D printer (might be nice though for a grip or something), get a workshop.
Your definitions of generations seem perfectly fair to me. The MAT49 which was most definitely post war was rather like a square version of the iconic Grease Gun, I'm sure if Morphy's had one there you would have included it. Great location for the walkthrough of your argument as being able to show examples really helps to demonstrate the points you made.
@@ahuman2695 sure they did. Ian has even featured weapons with optical sights that had drop compensation markings on the sight. They knew heavy weapons fired like rainbows hence the need for tall sights and even indirect fire sights where you're shooting for the sky hoping the rounds drop on people's heads. I blame the chair warmers who wanted 1,000 yard sights on a spray & pray point defense/offence weapon.
@@Hawk1966 I'd also think that it was a kind "mark of quality" that you had rifle-type sights on something which couldn't really shoot that far but was damned expensive!
@@manitoba-op4jx What would you call M16, AKM, RK62, L85A1, FAMAS, STG-44, M4 or G36, then? I'm sure there's a name for such an obviously separate category of military firearms.
Gen 4 SMG: Ergonomic handling, rails to mount all sorts of high tech accessories, tritinium glow sights rather than iron ones, telescopic stock and decrease in weight once again.
Gun Jesus hath spoken, so mote it be. There shall be three generations of SMG's, no more, no less. There shalt not be two generations unless thou proceedest directly to generation 3. Generation 4 is right out!
I love the first generation of submachine guns. They had a great design, and honestly, quality, design and manufacture are what I like the most about guns. I'm really interested in the care and precision that went into making each gun superb
@@stvdagger8074 "this is my gun, this is my Johnson" No wait .. "This is my Johnson, this is my rifle" Nope "This is my rifle, this is my Johnson" The possibilities are endless!!
@@JaneCobbsHat I like gun history, technicality, usage and overall all the coolness and all of it. But, I've never had a chance to shoot an gun, which sucks. Not even a miniature(.22 LR) rifle or pistol. Closest things I've got are: shooting my airgun(metallic pellet) and shooting some other airguns, shooting my mil-sim airsoft(plastic pellet) guns and holding some historical non-functioning guns i.e Ppsh-41 at a museum. Reason I haven't had a chance to shoot: 1. I live in a city and all my close relatives do so aswell, so for example my grandpa never had a hunting rifle that I could've shot and none of my relatives belong to any hunting club or do any gun sporting or hunt at all. 2. In my country there can't be home defence weapons or concealed carry firearms. 3. The firearm laws actually aren't that restrictive, so an AR-15 for hunting is a-ok, but still the laws and all lean more into the direction of all guns being hunting guns, so there aren't really any military grade weapons around to try or even have a use for since you just can't go to your backyard and shoot. You also have to be a member of some shooting club to own guns, which I haven't had a chance to do. Also gun stores aren't all that common and I myself have only been to two, both of in my city and they aren't even specific gun stores, more of like sporting and hardware stores which have a small section of shotguns and bolt-actions. 4. Firearm ranges are rare and they are far off from me. But, I'll get my touch on the real weapons, the rifles, the pistols and the machine guns, when I go do my mandatory military service within a couple of years and I'll probably stay and serve in the army as a paid job for a couple of years after it.
Who the heck is going to disagree with Ian, arguably one of the most knowledgeable firearms historians in the world?? If he argues that there are three generations, it is hard to make a rebuttal to that. This was one of my favorite Forgotten Weapons videos ever. Thanks Ian!
Gen 1: “Boy, these things are expensive. Maybe we’ll just convert our rifles to PCCs.” Gen 2: “Wow, these things are cheap to make. Start churning ‘em out!” Gen 3: “Boy, these things are expensive. Maybe we’ll just convert our rifles to PCCs.”
I would agree that 3rd generation would correspond to "ultra compact, high use of polymer, self-defense oriented" type of SMG. I wouldn't use the "PDW" term as it refers more to a purpose than a weapon type (PDW encompasses also short carbine).
I'd further add it also seems to be an interesting side effect of the increase in technological mobilisation in and out of warfare, as well. In the early days of war, you wouldn't worry as much about the length or weight of the firearm while on horseback, provided the user could still draw and operate it under motion. With the advent of automobiles, the enclosed nature of the thing meant you had less room and guns had to be shrunk down, which had a ripple effect on their accuracy, rate of controllable fire, and other factors, which then necessitated a more complex manual of arms than earlier guns that might have been issued. In the modern day, a weapon that fires a pistol caliber round from a compact machine with a folding stock or pistol brace and a barrel just short enough to make ballistic advantage of the round are the hot thing.
@ not realy, eventho the pistol calibers dont penetrate most body armor it still hurts and even can kill you if in close quarters, therefore highvelocity small calibers aren't that much of use in confined spaces
No doubt, I would say that PDW concept came from also de SA80 and uzi concepts but evolving those towards miniaturization with the likes of the mini and micro uzi, the MAC-10 and like you said, the TMP/MP9 as well had the MP5k.
For sure there’s some crossover here, but at least some PDWs are more like small assault rifles/ carbines, like the SCAR PDW firing 5.56 Nato, or the rather rare 5.7mm in the FN P90...
I find your division compelling. It seems as if intermediate caliber SBRs have largely assumed the role of the Gen 3 SMG, with the .300 BLK and 9.3x39 being the purest manifestation of that trend.
I was just thinking that, Gen4 is characterized by purpose built firearms that are expensive but very ergonomic and, again, purpose built Instead of taking a previous design
I know they're not the 'best', but if i ever found myself acquiring machine guns, my first would be a Thomspon. They're such an elegant design with really cool history.
American-180? 4th generation? Really? With its wooden stock/grip/furniture and shooting from an open bolts it's more like a 1st generation revival! Albeit a verrrrry fast shooting one, I'll give you that :-)
"Where Does He Get All Those Wonderful Toys?" 🃏 Sorry, sitting herei n the UK watching you pull examples of all those goodies, all within arms reach like some adult "show and tell" makes me slightly jealous. Very nice to see though. Like the breakdown of generations, wonder if you'd consider some of the exotic stuff like P90's and KRISS Vector's as moving into a 4th Generation or just outliers?
The P90 and MP7 are both PDWs (although the line between PDW and SMG is rather thin, so if there was a 4th generation I think it would be PDWs). I would also include the CBJ-MS in the PDW/4th generation group which I would define more by their cartridges than anything else since these guns are all designed to have greater penetration than SMGs usually have. The Vector is generally regarded as an SMG although it functions best in the role of a PDW so it would probably count as a 2nd generation given how it isn't scaled down from a rifle.
I wonder where some stuff like pp bizon or calico fits in. It's kind of a weird mix of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen in some ways. The magazine design and methodology is needlessly complex and expensive like the mp18, the actual product is made cheap with bakelite/polymer, but the bizon is built on familiar ak design to a degree.
Love this! Super cool to get to hear you talk at length about more large-scale firearm development, since usually we only get to hear bits and pieces of that stuff in the context of how it relates to specific guns. Would be cool to see more videos in this vein, like the evolution of bolt-action, the different varieties of blowback operation, open vs closed bolt, stuff like that.
I'm from Czech (part of former CzechoSlovakia), appreciate you mentioning SA Vz 23-26! It was indeed a conceptual base for more famous UZI. I have shot both, and the simplicity of open-bolt blow-back is crazy, the bolt is literally single moving part in the weapons. Shooting them feels kind of "raw" probably from feeling the reaction momentum of the bolt sliding, but recoil is surprisingly mild as returning bolt absorbs most of it. I was also very surprised by relative accuracy I achieved despite my very low practical experience.
Yeah, open bolt blowback is simple, so simple that it becomes a bit scary! If the bolt gets released, intentionally or by accident(and that bolt is usually under quite a lot of spring pressure so accidents are bound to happen), the gun will fire. Worse yet, if there is something wrong with the gun so that nothing catches the bolt it will continue firing until the magazine is empty.
Ian have you ever thought of coming to Ogden Utah to the Browning Museum, there are a lot of prototypes and crude 1st models to a lot of Browning guns.
That would actually be pretty interesting. I still own every blaster I ever got since childhood, and just from my own collection I can see a long and storied history of Nerf foamarm development tech and philosophy from the early 90's up to now. The level of sophistication that's arisen is pretty staggering and on par with real firearm development throughout the 20th century. There's even an extremely avid homebrew/custom community that has directly impacted the direction of the big manufacturers on several occasions.
I've watched pretty much all your SMG videos and think your division of the generations is pretty good. Hard to divide any mechanism being simultaneously created by many developers but you seem to have correctly characterized the thrust of this.
I find it interesting that as rifle calibers have evolved all over the place, subguns have essentially been in the same straight walled couple calibers since the start (that’s to not generalize them all being 9x19mm, most of which are!!)
I think the idea is to cost saving. Assault rifle are Frontline weapons and different countries want different calibers (when they can afford to) to fit their terrain. SMG are meant for close combat so most pistols rounds will perform roughly the same
By far the most common submachine guns of WW2 through Korean War were the Soviet PPSH-41 and PPS submachine guns in bottleneck 7.62x25mm TOK. These higher velocity rounds had much longer effective range than 9x19mm or .45ACP rounds so were much more militarily useful, about 200m compared to 100m. Also at closer range 7.62TOK penetrates steel helmets while 9x19mm or .45ACP just dents it. Germany made less than 1 million MP40 submachine guns. Britain made a lot of STENs but few were issued (they were emergency production fearing imminent invasion).
Limitations? Kind of, but their limits fit very well into the SMG roles, especially compact(able) Gen.3s. The system has to be good enough to engage up to 100, maybe 200 yards while being "weak" enough for simple blowback or to be silenced, not overpenetrating and small enough for close quarters. If the old pistol calibres can deliver that, why change? Rifles on the other hand have much greater target and range varieties, with them there is no "one size fits all".
I don’t really have any requests for ya to look at in more detail. I just wanted to say how jealous that I am that you get to touch all these fine historical firearms and sometimes you even end up shooting them!! Extremely jealous I think would be the most fitting words😄 Please keep up the great work you’re doing for those of us who’ll always be “look, don’t touch”!
Maybe post war is more like 2.5, there is something about the post war SMGs that are iconically post war, the Uzi and the MPL don't look right in ww2 in my opinion
I think that might be due to the practice of moving the mass of the bolt over the barrel like with telescoping bolt, which shortens the gun considerably. Look at how much less space there is between the trigger guard and magwell on the MPL and Uzi.
In case of Uzi beeing 2,5 I would look at "2,5s" as a more compact machine pistols and PDWs like Uzi, Scorpion, PM-63, MAC-10 etc. In that case modern machine pistols like MP-7 would be coming close to "3,5".
@@MediumTim The P90 and the MP7 are the trickiest to fit for me. The PP-19 Bizon is the precursor of the Vityaz and fills the same slot in the 3rd gen. The P90 is tricky because while it is made of polymer and is simple blowback, it doesn't really replicate the form factor of a rifle and isn't (as far as I know) really intended to be "cheap" either, rather being just focused on being a very compact delivery platform for a significant amount of 5.7mm ammunition. The MP7 does have the operating system that's more like a modern assault rifle, but the form factor is clearly an overgrown pistol. Maybe the MP7 shouldn't even be considered a "submachine gun", but a machine pistol? In many languages though those terms are one and the same, so... *shrug*
1:52 Brain cell 1: ah ah Star Wars Storm troopers with ww1 guns Brain cell 2: no he talking about the German troopers Brain cell 1: will you shut up man
I would hazard to say the Gen 3 submachine guns are not submachine guns at all but sub-assault rifles. The first two generations were used as machine guns in close quarters. Send the rounds and make the enemy dead, wounded, or hiding behind cover was the role. Modern SMG's are used exactly like an assault rifle... albeit more compact, lighter, and quieter. Used as a precision fast firing weapon(burst or semi-auto) for CQC like inside a building when doing room clearing. The roles the weapons are used for are completely different and the weapons themselves are more designed for their roles.
I would likely argue that the telescoping bolt was the third-generation development. Yes, little else changed in the construction or use of submachine guns post-WWII, but that one innovation was extremely important. I don't think you would see a modern blowback submachine gun design which doesn't have a telescoping bolt. I would agree that rifle actions converted to pistol caliber may be a different generation, but I would say fourth.
Maybe telescoping bolt guns would be gen 2.5? Yes, it was an important development, but the only thing that it really changed was making the guns shorter.
@@jarink1 "Generation" in technology tends to refer to a change to a line of products after which you would not go back. After the development of telescoping bolts, there weren't any new submachine gun designs without them (yes, there were "new" redesigns using older tooling or adaptations of older designs, but nothing ground up produced that had the majority of the bolt mass behind the breech face). Is it as big a difference as going from milled receivers and hand-selected wood with precision sights to cast/stamped on the cheap? I dunno - but it definitely meets the definition of "generation".
@@leedesrosiers3382 and it's a very good video! I really hope he makes a video of the KP44 which the Finns adopted late in the war. Basically a PPS43 copy.
I'd say the Uzi marks a split in generations, where compact not necessarily pistol format (mag in the grip) handling smgs emerge. Things like the Mac 10 or 11, the Tech 9, and similar guns that try to compete with the Uzi, this generation fizzled out of prominence in the 90's and the 00's, and the Modern generation, spearheaded by the Mp5 is still going strong to this day. Either way great video!
I'd create another classification, based on the purpose. First 3 gens were made mainly for military: 1st gen was for trench fighting, 2nd mainly for cities close combat. Of course as you mentioned the quality of production is different, but also the construction - horizontal mags are better for prone position, vertical is good when you peak out a bulidings corner etc. 3rd generation was personal weapon for vehicles crews. And nowadays as far as I know SMGs are mainly used by police special forces and sometimes military, also specials, and this type of SMGs I'd call a 4th gen. In general during cold war and later automatic carbines like M16 and AK made SMGs for military infantry mostly obsolete. They are versatile enough to be used both in close combat as well as mid-range up to few hundreds of meters, so they serve purpose of both SMGs and rifles used in WW II. Even vehicle crews became equiped with short versions of carbines, like AKS-74U.
The only smg i've had the pleasure of shooting was Port Said, and it was pure pleasure. The story of how that gun got to the US is certainly top secret.
You Know, I've Watched So Many Of Your Videos That I Finally Decided To Subscribe Because Your Knowledge Of Firearms Is Unparalleled. Up Until Now, The Only Other Gun Channel I Subscribed To Was Paul Harrel Because Of His Accurate (No Pun Intended) & Extensive Testing Of Ammunition. You Two Are The Cream Of The Crop . . .
I think, the third generation is more about "bolt-over-the-barrel" compacting (UZI, Ingram, PM-63), rather than about assault rifle downscaling which maybe should be considered the fourth generation. The latter being based on the "same-training-pfotocol" idea as you have pointed out.
i say there is a gen 4. i have seen a lot of SMG's that are moving away from 3 gen defenisions. they try to add uses or add options u can not have wite a rifle or a pistol. examples. the p90 is a very urly one. big magazine, ap, minimal added profile when in use. the kriss vector, super low recoil end mussel rise. the H&K MP7, as compakt as posible and jet gaining AP. the Chang Feng SMG (Type 06)
those are classified as Personal Defence Weapon (PDW). There are some key differences from submachineguns. But in principle, I agree with them being basically 4th gen SMGs.
It seems that Gen 3 have a lot in common with Gen 1, a typical designs for relative peacetime when there is no need to quickly arm half of the population...
I've learned a lot about the history of guns from your channel. A shame I can't own an SMG here in England I'll have to settle with shotguns and rifles. Also a shame you couldn't show the P90, always thought that gun was pretty cool.
I think the 3rd gen splits off in two parts. On one hand you have the exact thing you've stated with the SMGs being scaled down rifles, while on the other hand we also have submachine guns turning into PDWs. One branch focusing on taking the upsides of rifles and applying them to pistol calibers, while the other focuses entirely on emphasizing the massive firepower of a fast-firing SMG at short ranges.
You mean the curved mag? It is M1941 Johnson rifle. It had many parallels with FG-42, but these two weapons did not influence one another. Just happens to solve similar problems and adopted similar solutions
I personally believe that the Sten is a marvel of innovation. Consider the time in which it was concieved, Britain could not afford the Thompson, obviously they could not get the MP40 beyond what they captured, I doubt Stalin would have sent his PPsH's considering the USSR's dire need. I dont think the M3 Grease Gun was concieved either at the time the Sten was too. Were there issues with it? YES. Could the British have mass produced a similar weapon at the expedience and lack of cost that the Sten offered? I seriously doubt it. Did it work? Yup. I have nothing but respect for function over form weapon design. It needed to shoot 9mm bullets at a relatively quick ROF, with reasonable accuracy at close combat and up to 100m ranges, (shooting further with a sub gun of that era was mostly pointless) the Enfields took care of 100+m range targets.
Unless there is a significant development in affordable material or propellent/projectile technology, we are unlikely to see anything beyond some mild refinement, but is it worth doubling the cost for a 10% gain in performance (which is the usual ready reckoner for such things in engineering)
I really wish this video was longer so you would have talked more about Generation 3. I am really curios to dive further into how you define gen 3. Where do guns like the P90 fit in? What about other guns that aren't exactly scaled down rifles, but aren't entirely new designs either? There is so much more to be said about this topic, so many examples that need to be discussed. Please make a video going more in depth about gen 3!
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 91 | คู่เอก "คมอาวุธ vs อเล็กเซย์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/V0RkEfYFsgM/mqdefault.jpg)
Start of WW2: "Well, we machined this complicated heavy steel charging handle that mimics a k98"
End of WW2: "Just stick your finger in the there"
lol
pause
6 years of pure unadultered carnage and atrocity will do that
@Elisha Sebastian This is the same two comments every fucking time.
At least have the decency of being less obvious.
I mean, every hole is cover in the war
Gen 1: fancy and expensive
Gen 2: lets literally weld pipes together
Gen 3: ok we aren’t poor anymore, let’s not be as cheap Gen 2
Gen 4 (Brazilian gangs, 3D printers and so on): *WHAT THE FUUUUUCK*
@@user-sm5sj6mg2t Brazilian gans are Gen2, 3D printed ones are Gen3 (mostly)
Błyskawica (Lighting bolt), essentially a Polish copy of Sten, wasn't even welded. They used threaded screws, since it was build in conspiracy, as Poland was occupied, using literal piping.
Hmm wolfenstien make sense now
@@bvzv Polymer kinda is the modern equivalent of stamped sheet metal. You can do a lot with a polymer lower receiver and mag well.
Gen 1: Gorgeous guns, and beautifully crafted. Gen 2: Fell out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. "Be thankful you have gun!"
I think Gen 2 postwar looks better actually
@@Sableagle "just fine" is debatable. Plenty of feed stoppages with Stens. Then again, it was dirt cheap, so to be expected.
@@Sableagle wasn´t there documentation for how the British Gov in case of a German impendence invasion how to make Sten guns in the average Dads garage by people that have not operate said equipment before.
We are talking a small book in thickness(this was not a flyer) whit how to operate most of the more common machining tools, sometime including actual blacksmith level of tech.
from a pile of scap to fully functional guns. (not sure what version of sten this would be come).
I generally enjoy this comment thread. Even the stuck up french as it feels natural! Only kidding, don't flame me xD
@@SiPakRubah I guess they had a bit more time to consider creature comfort. Given the choice between something like an Uzi and a Sten i think most people will choose the Uzi, at least given the chance they get to handle the guns first.
"I know not what Gen 4 will look like but Gen 5 will look exactly like Gen 2." - Albert Einstein
If we don't repeat all the way back to the mighty pokey stick lol
Gen 4 will probably be a nostalgic return to the gorgeous furniture of Gen 1, and mimicries of Gen 1 designs with Gen 3 materials. Gen 5, however, will go right back to 2.
Apple: Hold my beer
Generation 1: What you make when you've spent the last 30 years obsessing over 1000 yard accuracy and have bolt-action rifles on the brain.
Generation 2: What you make when you have to arm a million men by a week-next-Wednesday...
Laughs in Type 100, Beretta Model 38 and MP-28.
German: holds up MP 38:9 mm, effective to 200 m
Russian: holds up PPSh: 7.62 Tokrov, effective to 225 m
German: holds up STG: 7.92 x 25, effective to 250 m
Russian: holds up AK: 7.62 x 39, effective to 350 m
German: good thing World War II was over so we didn't have to face those
@@jonbocz Americans: Hold up Thompson SMG and of course the BAR.
Germans: Is that man carrying a portable Machine Gun that just cut a tree down?........nope nope nope nope nope.
@@zerocool4835 not in ww2
@@jonbocz
Nobody is shooting effectively at 200m in combat, so it doesn’t matter at all
“The Sten [...] a pipe, another pipe, and a whole lot of hope” - Anton Hand
Having owned one, it really isn't all that bad of a gun.
Great quote
I laughed so hard I had to pause the video to catch my breath in that video 😂
@@johnkelinske1449 A Sterling?
Wonderful!
I like this type of content where it shows the advancement/evolution of a type of weaponry.
Check out his lever action series, it's 6 (correction: 8) videos going from the 1860s to the 1890s
@@Compgeek86 I already did i watch both FW and inrange videos best firearms channels on youtube really.
Same. I would love mores series of this!
Agreed
The four video series on the development of the Thompson is one of my favorites.
"The US Department of Energy decided to adopt a AR-15 derived 9mm smg"
Those squirrels have chewed through the power lines for the last time.....
(Yeah I know it's for security of power plants, specifically nuclear, but that sentence just seems hilarious to me)
It's not just for power plants. Despite their somewhat misleading name, the DOE is also the agency responsible for the manufacture and maintenance of the US nuclear arsenal and manage all the facilities related to that task, hence the heavily-armed guards.
@@DefconMaster Holy shit, I never knew that
The Federal Protective Forces are one of the most badass paramilitary forces yet work under one of the least interesting sounding departments. Getting between them and nuclear material is several times worse than getting between a bear and her cub. On a related note, Amtrak has a counter-terrorism force on staff.
DOE also does alot of R&D that one wouldn't expect. For example they are also the ones that perform genetic research. It's just one of those departments that has over time taken on tasks that would otherwise fall under "miscellaneous" (bloat over time when it wasn't worth opening a new department just for that one thing).
@@DeHerg Plant genetics research - the DOE does a lot of work on the environment and ecosystems. Human genetics research is primarily supported by the NIH.
I love how all of the US government departments have guns. Department of stationery:- paperclips, post-it notes, M-4 Carbine....
You never know when you'll have to defend your paper against the random looter.
Someone has to defend our strategic post-it stockpile!!
United States Forest Service has M40 105mm recoilless rifle and 105 mm howitzers for avalanche control.
@@smithfinland214
Are you serious?
It at least makes sense with the DoE. They handle all the nuclear material in the country.
Something I think you missed was the third generations re-shift towards ergonomics. You can see with the second generation, ergonomics are thrown out the door with terrible wire stocks, uncomfortable grips, stuff like that.
That's probably because there hasn't been a war-shortage in quite a while
@@kalebbruwer yeah, and you can notice this in areas other than in gun design, too.
The first decade or two after WW2 were marked by an _obsession_ with making everything as cheap and cost-effective as possible. Even when it flew against common sense.
All kinds of weird things happened back then because they wanted to make everything so cheap, going from a craze for crappy processed foods, all the way up to stuff like that one infamous tower block in London which collapsed because they replaced cement with used newspapers in some parts of the building.
WW2 really had a nasty effect on people.
Not just third-generation - by the classifications in this video, you see a shift towards better ergonomics in the post-war 2nd-gen, especially once polymer becomes available
I mean, naturally. Winning WW2 was probably far more important to the Allies than their hands being comfortable lol
@@xxrocketshark216xx4 it's not just about hands being comfortable - ergonomics helps a lot for accuracy and response times.
It's more that WW2 was fought with quantity over quality - getting *some* gun into every soldier's hands was more important than getting a *good* gun into half of your soldier's hands. This extended even to design problems that sometimes broke the gun, to tank armor and armament, and all kinds of other issues directly related to combat effectiveness
"The Sten - a bunch of parts that fell off a plumbing truck."
Just about right.
The SOE supplied French Resistance fighters with plans for the Sten, designed so that any rural workshop could knock one or a dozen up in a barn.
...and you can still build a "Sten" inside the simplest of workshop ... did one in my locksmith apprenticeship, working with 9mm PAK blanks ... the Master was not amused.
Reportedly, the Israeli's made Sten guns in underground workshops, leading up to their 1948 independence ....have one preserved as a museum, which I would love to see.
People were making them from parts kits using exhaust tubing for the receiver.
Long time ago I read that Polish resistance needed to improve some features of STEN, now I know why lol They say that their home made version was more reliable than originals from airdrops.
This is the kind of history that anti-gun people would prefer to see erased. It's possible to engineer a culture that hates guns and loves being ruled, but it's pretty much impossible to engineer a civilization where only the rulers can make guns.
Thats the most beautiful Thompson I've ever seen.
Indeed.
Ian did a different video on the Thompson, you might change your mind after viewing that one.
I've always wanted a m1928 as it's a gun that was used from the Chinese civil war too the Vietnam in the 60s
@@pauperslament3467 still want one....
In combat, I'd pick the Grease gun over the Thompson any day though
"They're designed largely to be compact, be cheap, and easy to produce. However, I think there is a third generation of submachinegun"
*Fade to Gen 3 Title*
Me: He's gonna pull out an MP5.
*Fade Back In*
MP5
What else was it going to be? Redefined the SMG and still the king, barring a few that come close or are half-carbine.
Imagine him pulling out АКС-74у (AKS-74u) only to quickly toss it away and pull out MP5 XXXXXXDDDDD
That was a no-brainer. 😁
Where was the p90?
@@_Atzin not a Submachine Gun
What I love about Ian and Forgotten Weapons is that whilst yes, it is fundamentally a firearms channel, it presents much more like a history channel. Other gun channels, on doing overviews of historical firearms/events, would tend to give a lot more gun-centric commentary, talking about things only gun people would know, and sneering at obscure details only said people would know, whereas Ian is much more generalised, whilst retaining that level of detail that allows non-gun people to learn.
The grease gun looks like something someone made in their garage or in a post apocalypse future. Offensively cost effective, is my spontaneous impression.
That isn't very far off from the truth.
Sten SMG's are the literal definition of that, they were developed around the time the British had the OH BOTHER! we are getting bombed and are going to get invaded, so it was designed to be made in small workshops (it was however built in the regular ordinance factories)
The grease gun was a decision made by bean counters, the thompson was ridiculously expensive, the M3 was designed to be built cheaply but in massive quantities in factories, so its far more refined (and reliable) than the sten.
The Owen SMG is literally "something someone made in their garage". That someone was a random Australian teenager.
Ended up becoming one of the ugliest guns of all time and probably the best ever WW2 SMG ever made.
@@the8thark
> and probably the best ever WW2 SMG ever made.
PPS-43?
Owen: sweeping the jungle where the Thompson and STEN couldn’t
The US Ammunition shortage continues. Meanwhile, a bearded man is seen with an armful of SMG's heading outside with a large grin on his face.
He does move in a mysterious way on his videos, that is a given..
There is no shortage there is just assholes buying it all up to resale at a huge profit
There's no shortage for those prepping in time
The crowd runs to his feet, begging for any ammo he has, but he simply laughs, for the ammo he has isn’t the 5.56 or 9mm the crowd is wants, he simply keeps walking, and returns to his dwelling, where he has a vault of .32 French Launge
you think the US is gathering some for war? sry i just came from a vid about the CCP taking Even over more land from its neighbors
How the concept of the Sten was thought of: ‘Allright lads! Weaponize this bicycle!’
We go from Gen 1's fancy guns that were needlessly expensive to Gen 2, which asks "How little gun can you have while still technically having a gun?"
Technically having an _automatic_ gun. Single shot slamfire is probably the simplest you can get, and single shot break actions are pretty damn simple too.
There was a great deppersion during the 2nd gen leading to WW2
@@joshuahadams I mean, open bolt direct blowback full auto only smgs of the 2. gen basically are magazine fed full auto slamfire weapons, the fasted technological version of hitting a lot of bullets with a nail
9 SMGs for WW1, 7 made for WW2, 3 made for the post war years, and then one MP5 made to rule them all!
Although the MP5 is over 55 years old it's still such a classy and all around perfect firearm. God, I love my SP5.
@@arcuz7862 Tho now most military and especially SOCOM is replacing MP5 with compact M4 10 inch barrel in 5.56 and 300 blk
@@aizseeker3622 Cool story, but nobody asked about it. The MP5 was dominant from the 70's all the way up to 2010.
This ought to be the number one comment.
I had a choice between an sp5 and an mpx. I chose the latter for the reliable and low recoil short stroke piston, familiar controls, and attachment points. You want a light or optic on your mp5 and you're spending a lot more money.
I still want an mp5 but the mpx is just a better, more modern gun.
1st generation: More elegant weapons for a more civilized age
I'm not so sure about the "civilized age" bit. This is the same time period that men were battling in the mud with pickaxe handles wrapped in barbed wire :(
@@markmonoton6224 Yes, I'm aware of that :D I'm a big Star Wars fan. On the other hand, WW1 could be a hideous hellscape of techno-barbarian slaughter at times..
@@euansmith3699 I think the Interbellum period was the last gasp of the civilized period from before World War I. This world has been ugly, crass and without class ever since, which would be acceptable if we were as free as we think we are, but we aren't. So saying the submachine guns we for a more civilized age is true, from a certain point of view, and I'd argue from the objective
Civilized age *laughs in Weimar Germany*
@@markmonoton6224 To be fair, the Clone Wars were hardly more civilized than the Empire.
I feel like there should be a 4th generation called “Experimental” or something, where the SMG requirements for a lot of militaries got really niche and narrowed down to where SMGs had to have really different calibers and operating systems, it would be post 1980’s and would have guns like the MP7, P90, and Vector
Was about to say something similar. I know technically that PDWs are their own class of weapons, but they also seem like a candidate to be the 4th generation of SMG.
In my opinion they are experimental and very different to other SMGs but also eachother and that is precisely why they don't get their own "generation". There are barely any consistent defining features to them all and so it doesn't make sense to group them together in the way that Ian are defining the mainstream development of the SMG in this video.
It's arguable. I was thinking the same thing - we have a number of modern guns that fit in the SMG category, but are not clearly developed on something older. A reinventing of the wheel, as it were. Many of them have become iconic, but as we are in the middle of that 'generation', it may be too soon to say. This may be something that needs another ten or twenty years to determine if it is a real change in development, or just some interesting flukes along the way.
I'd even throw in the recently popular pistol conversions like the Roni.
@@andrehashimoto8056 no one wants to be the one that says that pdw = smg = machine pistol = yada yada. But for me, if it shoots a pistol caliber and its kind of semi compact = smg
Gen 1: Complicated, overly optimistic, and wood.
Gen 2: Stamped, rough, utilitarian.
Gen 3: Modular and highly adaptable.
Gen 1: special made on order for limited use, High quality craftmanship.
Gen 2: I crap basket we need to toss everything and the kitchen sink at the enemy make the Gen1 version but make 10.000.000 of them as fast as possiblem, but no later then next Friday.
Gen 2 post war: okey we can breath a bit as we got stocks of Gen 2 but they are ugly and almost as dangerous to the user as to the enemy fix them, take some time, still keep the cost down.
Gen 3: we can now actually design a good mass producible SMG, we can now spend time designing and testing them before sending them to the factory to be made in the 10.000 a day.
Gen 1: We can afford to make nice SMGs.
Gen 2: We can't afford to make nice SMGs.
Gen 3: We can afford to make nice SMGs again.
Gen 1:expensive milled and hand crafted parts by machinist and capenters
Gen2:mass produced stamped parts mostly short life spam
Gen2+:More precious stamping , more milling and liberal use injected aluminum and plastic parts.
Gen3:Computer aided design and manufacturing and CNC tools precision that an human being hard to achieve.Rifle adopted repeading mechanisms
You're forgetting heavy. 1st Gen Submachine guns weigh a _ton_ .
A fully loaded Suomi weighs almost 15lbs, whereas a Sten comes in at around 9lbs.
@@LN997-i8x
The sten was an unreliable pipe gun tho...
Least the early ones were.
6:49 Ok, a bolt action SMG. Damn, Ian gets access to some impossibility rare firearms. Thanks again for the vids gun Jesus.
WW1: "SMGs are for the elite infiltrator troopers, they should be finely made!"
WW2: "Give literally everyone an SMG, even tankers get SMGs! Just slap some tubes together, I want BULK!"
Cold war: "SMGs are for the elite infiltrator troopers, they should be-... hang on, let's at least be moderate in our quality this time around. What about the tankers, you ask? Well, they can keep their stamped pea-shooters, no problem."
I agree with your assessment of Gen. 3! Switching from Open Bolt to Closed Bolt is a HUGE defining characteristic.
And locked breech.
When Gun Jesus classifies the sub-machine gun into three generations you just nod your head and agree with him.
Yeah, I was wondering where a pdw would fit in. While you could classify them as a different type of weapon, but they fill a similar role to the smg, if not the same role.
"Do you agree? Do you disagree?"
Who would dare?!
@Zach Comstock you can state that for any firearm. We give them designations as machine guns, smgs and rifles because they fit certain roles or have certain qualities. Don't be an idiot.
@@timthorson52 I mean yes and no, there are guns made clearly for hunting for food, and guns made for Assault, pretty much any gun can be used for self defense sure but, I think using a Punt Gun for self defense or Guarding your home with a 4-bore would be just a little bit less practical than a purpose built weapon meant for personal defense.
@@sorrenblitz805 PDW are the rifles for vehicle crews because they are more compact than a full sized rifle.
"Looks like a combinations of scrap bits from a plumbing truck" classic!
Here in Denmark, the resistance actually made Stenguns (known as BOPA-guns) in the workshop of a bicycle store. The only part they could not make was the barrel - these were supplied by air-drop from England. An air-drop container could hold many more barrels than complete guns, making it a viable way of supplying arms to the resistance.
If the Brits could have made them from plumbing supplies they would have.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot probably did - aircraft parts were made in furniture factories!
@@RamonInNZ You betcha we did, like IKEA doing a fighter bomber kit. The Mosquito was one of the best planes of WW2. BTW my high school (like most others) lost its wrought iron fence in WW2 for use in the war effort
The IRA and other groups also made some heaters from spare parts and had workshops dedicated to that purpose. Seriously, if you're in a place that restricts your options for hardware don't get a 3D printer (might be nice though for a grip or something), get a workshop.
Ian was straight FLEXING his gun knowledge in this clip. One of his best.
The sten gun is just Tod Howard as a gun.
“I-it just works.”
*jams*
*God Howard
Actually, the Sten did work. Can't say the same thing about Mr. Howard though.
@@deeznoots6241 it's not a bug
In the Western Desert the Sten was more reliable than a Thompson; or at least one with a Blish lock.
Your definitions of generations seem perfectly fair to me. The MAT49 which was most definitely post war was rather like a square version of the iconic Grease Gun, I'm sure if Morphy's had one there you would have included it. Great location for the walkthrough of your argument as being able to show examples really helps to demonstrate the points you made.
6:50 iron sights out to 1000 meters with a submachine gun? Lol
Back then people didn't really know bullet drop
Edit: I was wrong
@@ahuman2695 oh, they did, but they were still thinking about volley fire by platoon or even company against a formation of troops.
Old habits die hard
@@ahuman2695 sure they did. Ian has even featured weapons with optical sights that had drop compensation markings on the sight. They knew heavy weapons fired like rainbows hence the need for tall sights and even indirect fire sights where you're shooting for the sky hoping the rounds drop on people's heads. I blame the chair warmers who wanted 1,000 yard sights on a spray & pray point defense/offence weapon.
@@Hawk1966 I'd also think that it was a kind "mark of quality" that you had rifle-type sights on something which couldn't really shoot that far but was damned expensive!
So
Gen1: quality is job #1!
Gen2: quantity is job #1!
Gen3: let's compromise!
SMG has evolved to Assault/Auto rifles, SMGs have no place in military applications.
@@manitoba-op4jx The name stuck its now empeded in gun culture nothing you can do about it.
@@manitoba-op4jx no such thing as a select fire rifle that uses intermediate cartridges and a detachable magazine? really?
@@manitoba-op4jx What would you call M16, AKM, RK62, L85A1, FAMAS, STG-44, M4 or G36, then? I'm sure there's a name for such an obviously separate category of military firearms.
But most of Gen2 still worked perfectly!
Gen 1 SMG: NO!! Sub Machine Guns need to be made of the finest materials!!
Gen 2 SMG: Hehe, Pipe Gun go pew pew
I knew it I went looking for this comment because I knew I had seen it before on other videos and it has the exact same wording
Get it straight
Gen 2: angry tube.
Gen 4 SMG: Ergonomic handling, rails to mount all sorts of high tech accessories, tritinium glow sights rather than iron ones, telescopic stock and decrease in weight once again.
Gun Jesus hath spoken, so mote it be.
There shall be three generations of SMG's, no more, no less. There shalt not be two generations unless thou proceedest directly to generation 3. Generation 4 is right out!
I love the first generation of submachine guns. They had a great design, and honestly, quality, design and manufacture are what I like the most about guns.
I'm really interested in the care and precision that went into making each gun superb
""This is my johnson, this is my Thomson" Rejected submachine gun creed for full metal jacket.
You just won the comments section! Brilliant!
@@TheWirksworthGunroom thank you kind stranger!
@Nicholas Garcia Pink guy ... I have the feeling it is nsfw
That creed would be a problem for the US-Canadian 1st Special Service Force as they were equipped with M1941 Johnson Rifles.
@@stvdagger8074 "this is my gun, this is my Johnson"
No wait ..
"This is my Johnson, this is my rifle"
Nope
"This is my rifle, this is my Johnson"
The possibilities are endless!!
"NO YOU CAN'T SIGHT A SUBMACHINE GUN TO 1000 METERS"
Me:
*indirect fire go brrrrrrr*
Gunner! 1 O'clock, range 1000! Plunging fire, fire for effect!
@@mrminiguns LMAOO
John Ross, Unintended Consequences, thinks BATF could have used one.
@Vatnik Redditor AND IFunny user found
"Hold my beer"
I’m not a gun person, but the information and education your channel provides is super fascinating! Love your videos!
Yeah, me neither, never even shot a gun in my live. But I like the historical and technical aspects Ian (and Carl) usually bring up.
thats cool but i still like guns
@@JaneCobbsHat I like gun history, technicality, usage and overall all the coolness and all of it. But, I've never had a chance to shoot an gun, which sucks. Not even a miniature(.22 LR) rifle or pistol. Closest things I've got are: shooting my airgun(metallic pellet) and shooting some other airguns, shooting my mil-sim airsoft(plastic pellet) guns and holding some historical non-functioning guns i.e Ppsh-41 at a museum. Reason I haven't had a chance to shoot:
1. I live in a city and all my close relatives do so aswell, so for example my grandpa never had a hunting rifle that I could've shot and none of my relatives belong to any hunting club or do any gun sporting or hunt at all.
2. In my country there can't be home defence weapons or concealed carry firearms.
3. The firearm laws actually aren't that restrictive, so an AR-15 for hunting is a-ok, but still the laws and all lean more into the direction of all guns being hunting guns, so there aren't really any military grade weapons around to try or even have a use for since you just can't go to your backyard and shoot. You also have to be a member of some shooting club to own guns, which I haven't had a chance to do. Also gun stores aren't all that common and I myself have only been to two, both of in my city and they aren't even specific gun stores, more of like sporting and hardware stores which have a small section of shotguns and bolt-actions.
4. Firearm ranges are rare and they are far off from me.
But, I'll get my touch on the real weapons, the rifles, the pistols and the machine guns, when I go do my mandatory military service within a couple of years and I'll probably stay and serve in the army as a paid job for a couple of years after it.
That's good your not. It eases the pain of not being able to own a lot of the firearms Gun Jesus presents us
@@qr-code6334 Where you live? Canada?
Who the heck is going to disagree with Ian, arguably one of the most knowledgeable firearms historians in the world?? If he argues that there are three generations, it is hard to make a rebuttal to that. This was one of my favorite Forgotten Weapons videos ever. Thanks Ian!
0:03 I can't help but notice that behemoth gun in the background that takes iPad-sized magazines.
Probably a Johnson LMG...
Long ipad
My dad fought in Korea and told me stories about the reliability of the grease gun, you could stomp them in the mud and they still came up running.
Gen 1: “Boy, these things are expensive. Maybe we’ll just convert our rifles to PCCs.”
Gen 2: “Wow, these things are cheap to make. Start churning ‘em out!”
Gen 3: “Boy, these things are expensive. Maybe we’ll just convert our rifles to PCCs.”
Gen 3: We'll just convert our (automatic) carbines to even smaller (automatic) PCCs.
Gen 4: “Maybe I’ll just buy an SP5 and eat ramen for a while. Two years. Tops.”
Gen 5: "Wait, why do we need all this material to fire a pistol cartridge? Let's just make pistols with stocks and grips."
Nive Lewis Nolan Nomar has joined the chat.
MP7/P90: "What if automatic PCCs, but smaller and using smaller ammo that penetrates body armor?"
I'd add that the PDW is a parallel development to gen 3 SMGs, like the TMP/MP9, or P90.
I would agree that 3rd generation would correspond to "ultra compact, high use of polymer, self-defense oriented" type of SMG.
I wouldn't use the "PDW" term as it refers more to a purpose than a weapon type (PDW encompasses also short carbine).
I'd further add it also seems to be an interesting side effect of the increase in technological mobilisation in and out of warfare, as well. In the early days of war, you wouldn't worry as much about the length or weight of the firearm while on horseback, provided the user could still draw and operate it under motion. With the advent of automobiles, the enclosed nature of the thing meant you had less room and guns had to be shrunk down, which had a ripple effect on their accuracy, rate of controllable fire, and other factors, which then necessitated a more complex manual of arms than earlier guns that might have been issued. In the modern day, a weapon that fires a pistol caliber round from a compact machine with a folding stock or pistol brace and a barrel just short enough to make ballistic advantage of the round are the hot thing.
@ not realy, eventho the pistol calibers dont penetrate most body armor it still hurts and even can kill you if in close quarters, therefore highvelocity small calibers aren't that much of use in confined spaces
No doubt, I would say that PDW concept came from also de SA80 and uzi concepts but evolving those towards miniaturization with the likes of the mini and micro uzi, the MAC-10 and like you said, the TMP/MP9 as well had the MP5k.
For sure there’s some crossover here, but at least some PDWs are more like small assault rifles/ carbines, like the SCAR PDW firing 5.56 Nato, or the rather rare 5.7mm in the FN P90...
i was trained in g3 back in the days, and when i got my hands on a mp5, i knew how to operate and disassemble without any introduction
I would even argue that since the nineties we've been in a fourth-generation where the PDW segment has come alive.
The French MAT 49 illustrates perfectly why Ian is right that post war SMGs are still gen 2
Or the swedish Carl Gustav M/45 and it's Egyptian license, the Port Said.
I find your division compelling. It seems as if intermediate caliber SBRs have largely assumed the role of the Gen 3 SMG, with the .300 BLK and 9.3x39 being the purest manifestation of that trend.
How does your comment say from 3 weeks ago-
@@lumetheredpanda8959 patreon supporters
Time travel
@@nickvandam2706 Ah
@@WorldCupWillie I like this explanation more
I think Gen4 has basically been renamed as PDWs. The P90, and MP7 come to mind in this change.
I was just thinking that,
Gen4 is characterized by purpose built firearms that are expensive but very ergonomic and, again, purpose built
Instead of taking a previous design
Additionally with advances in munitions and body armor, Gen 4 could also see a shift away from 9mm Para.
That’s a great way to put it.
Right, and I think you could include the Kriss Vector as well.
Which kinda pushes back to an earlier generation, but not technically of SMGs; compact carbines. Like the AKS-74U. @@pkre707
"...stamped maybe isn't the right term here: bent might be more appropriate.." LMAO!!
I know they're not the 'best', but if i ever found myself acquiring machine guns, my first would be a Thomspon. They're such an elegant design with really cool history.
Shame that this video doesn't mention the quintessential Gen. 4 SMG: the American-180
_mm AM180_
brrrrrrrrr
gen4 just a bunch of angry hornets
American-180? 4th generation? Really? With its wooden stock/grip/furniture and shooting from an open bolts it's more like a 1st generation revival! Albeit a verrrrry fast shooting one, I'll give you that :-)
@@robertssmorgasbord Ummm joke?
"Where Does He Get All Those Wonderful Toys?" 🃏
Sorry, sitting herei n the UK watching you pull examples of all those goodies, all within arms reach like some adult "show and tell" makes me slightly jealous. Very nice to see though.
Like the breakdown of generations, wonder if you'd consider some of the exotic stuff like P90's and KRISS Vector's as moving into a 4th Generation or just outliers?
The P90 and MP7 are both PDWs (although the line between PDW and SMG is rather thin, so if there was a 4th generation I think it would be PDWs). I would also include the CBJ-MS in the PDW/4th generation group which I would define more by their cartridges than anything else since these guns are all designed to have greater penetration than SMGs usually have.
The Vector is generally regarded as an SMG although it functions best in the role of a PDW so it would probably count as a 2nd generation given how it isn't scaled down from a rifle.
I wish sub calibers like 4.6mm and 5.7mm becomes globalized and result in the new generation of submachine guns.
I wonder where some stuff like pp bizon or calico fits in. It's kind of a weird mix of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen in some ways. The magazine design and methodology is needlessly complex and expensive like the mp18, the actual product is made cheap with bakelite/polymer, but the bizon is built on familiar ak design to a degree.
@@42ndsheep by the way, you should clarify that PDW is personal defense weapon, in case our British nigga doesn't know
@@dan_loeb I trust the new PPK-20 more than PP-19. It's much more reliable obviously, simpler, and uses simple stick mag
This is the first time that I have actually watched a Forgotten Weapons video that’s not atleast 1-6 year old lmao
Love this! Super cool to get to hear you talk at length about more large-scale firearm development, since usually we only get to hear bits and pieces of that stuff in the context of how it relates to specific guns. Would be cool to see more videos in this vein, like the evolution of bolt-action, the different varieties of blowback operation, open vs closed bolt, stuff like that.
I'm from Czech (part of former CzechoSlovakia), appreciate you mentioning SA Vz 23-26! It was indeed a conceptual base for more famous UZI.
I have shot both, and the simplicity of open-bolt blow-back is crazy, the bolt is literally single moving part in the weapons. Shooting them feels kind of "raw" probably from feeling the reaction momentum of the bolt sliding, but recoil is surprisingly mild as returning bolt absorbs most of it. I was also very surprised by relative accuracy I achieved despite my very low practical experience.
Yeah, open bolt blowback is simple, so simple that it becomes a bit scary! If the bolt gets released, intentionally or by accident(and that bolt is usually under quite a lot of spring pressure so accidents are bound to happen), the gun will fire. Worse yet, if there is something wrong with the gun so that nothing catches the bolt it will continue firing until the magazine is empty.
Indeed, Israel is still thankful to Czechoslovakia for their help back then.
Ian have you ever thought of coming to Ogden Utah to the Browning Museum, there are a lot of prototypes and crude 1st models to a lot of Browning guns.
Yup, it's on my list.
@@ForgottenWeapons Please announce it, I would love to meet you in person
@@fernandoruiz7713 he does on patreon, so you might want to hop on there
@@marcusborderlands6177 oh yeah, aight guess I’m joining
I’d say that the P90 also represents the gem 3 well, with innovation and unconventional design that serves extremely practical purposes.
isnt that a PDW tho?
@@themanguy2110 a PDW is just a smg tbh
@@deeznoots6241 en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_defense_weapon
@@themanguy2110 pdw is just cold war term that we don't use it anymore.
This is a really interesting topic. Thanks Ian.
I would love to see forgotten weapons do a "nerf" blaster video
could even be a cross-over with Drac and Outofdarts
That would actually be pretty interesting. I still own every blaster I ever got since childhood, and just from my own collection I can see a long and storied history of Nerf foamarm development tech and philosophy from the early 90's up to now. The level of sophistication that's arisen is pretty staggering and on par with real firearm development throughout the 20th century. There's even an extremely avid homebrew/custom community that has directly impacted the direction of the big manufacturers on several occasions.
They have some pretty strong ones.
I've watched pretty much all your SMG videos and think your division of the generations is pretty good. Hard to divide any mechanism being simultaneously created by many developers but you seem to have correctly characterized the thrust of this.
15:53 that MP5SD is Sexy
That and the Walther, yum.
@@Kraakesolv the Thompson,MP40 and MP18
Too
I find it interesting that as rifle calibers have evolved all over the place, subguns have essentially been in the same straight walled couple calibers since the start (that’s to not generalize them all being 9x19mm, most of which are!!)
I think it speaks to the limitations of pistol calibers in general.
I think the idea is to cost saving. Assault rifle are Frontline weapons and different countries want different calibers (when they can afford to) to fit their terrain. SMG are meant for close combat so most pistols rounds will perform roughly the same
PDW are essentially SMG (Gen 4?) and they use some unusual rounds.
By far the most common submachine guns of WW2 through Korean War were the Soviet PPSH-41 and PPS submachine guns in bottleneck 7.62x25mm TOK. These higher velocity rounds had much longer effective range than 9x19mm or .45ACP rounds so were much more militarily useful, about 200m compared to 100m. Also at closer range 7.62TOK penetrates steel helmets while 9x19mm or .45ACP just dents it.
Germany made less than 1 million MP40 submachine guns.
Britain made a lot of STENs but few were issued (they were emergency production fearing imminent invasion).
Limitations? Kind of, but their limits fit very well into the SMG roles, especially compact(able) Gen.3s.
The system has to be good enough to engage up to 100, maybe 200 yards while being "weak" enough for simple blowback or to be silenced, not overpenetrating and small enough for close quarters.
If the old pistol calibres can deliver that, why change?
Rifles on the other hand have much greater target and range varieties, with them there is no "one size fits all".
17:06 Man, that is compactness...
I think that your classification of SMG generations is the most logical I've heard thus far. Well done!
I don’t really have any requests for ya to look at in more detail. I just wanted to say how jealous that I am that you get to touch all these fine historical firearms and sometimes you even end up shooting them!! Extremely jealous I think would be the most fitting words😄 Please keep up the great work you’re doing for those of us who’ll always be “look, don’t touch”!
Maybe post war is more like 2.5, there is something about the post war SMGs that are iconically post war, the Uzi and the MPL don't look right in ww2 in my opinion
I think that might be due to the practice of moving the mass of the bolt over the barrel like with telescoping bolt, which shortens the gun considerably. Look at how much less space there is between the trigger guard and magwell on the MPL and Uzi.
P90, MP7, PP19 bizon, ... *that* Chinese thing ... The list seems to have been cut short
In case of Uzi beeing 2,5 I would look at "2,5s" as a more compact machine pistols and PDWs like Uzi, Scorpion, PM-63, MAC-10 etc. In that case modern machine pistols like MP-7 would be coming close to "3,5".
Telescoping bolt bro ...that's the thing
@@MediumTim The P90 and the MP7 are the trickiest to fit for me. The PP-19 Bizon is the precursor of the Vityaz and fills the same slot in the 3rd gen. The P90 is tricky because while it is made of polymer and is simple blowback, it doesn't really replicate the form factor of a rifle and isn't (as far as I know) really intended to be "cheap" either, rather being just focused on being a very compact delivery platform for a significant amount of 5.7mm ammunition. The MP7 does have the operating system that's more like a modern assault rifle, but the form factor is clearly an overgrown pistol. Maybe the MP7 shouldn't even be considered a "submachine gun", but a machine pistol? In many languages though those terms are one and the same, so... *shrug*
1:48 I thought stormtroopers received the Sterling!😁
ahhhhhh very good sir
@@orvallossenberger6141 😉
And a few MG34s.
Well played.
I thought they received the E-11
1:52
Brain cell 1: ah ah Star Wars Storm troopers with ww1 guns
Brain cell 2: no he talking about the German troopers
Brain cell 1: will you shut up man
actually, they had German WWII guns. So, you're not that far off. ;-)
More of this. Context is everything. Please do a series on the development of the carbine, auto-pistol, primary combat rifle...
I would hazard to say the Gen 3 submachine guns are not submachine guns at all but sub-assault rifles. The first two generations were used as machine guns in close quarters. Send the rounds and make the enemy dead, wounded, or hiding behind cover was the role. Modern SMG's are used exactly like an assault rifle... albeit more compact, lighter, and quieter. Used as a precision fast firing weapon(burst or semi-auto) for CQC like inside a building when doing room clearing. The roles the weapons are used for are completely different and the weapons themselves are more designed for their roles.
I would likely argue that the telescoping bolt was the third-generation development. Yes, little else changed in the construction or use of submachine guns post-WWII, but that one innovation was extremely important. I don't think you would see a modern blowback submachine gun design which doesn't have a telescoping bolt.
I would agree that rifle actions converted to pistol caliber may be a different generation, but I would say fourth.
Maybe telescoping bolt guns would be gen 2.5? Yes, it was an important development, but the only thing that it really changed was making the guns shorter.
@@jarink1 "Generation" in technology tends to refer to a change to a line of products after which you would not go back. After the development of telescoping bolts, there weren't any new submachine gun designs without them (yes, there were "new" redesigns using older tooling or adaptations of older designs, but nothing ground up produced that had the majority of the bolt mass behind the breech face). Is it as big a difference as going from milled receivers and hand-selected wood with precision sights to cast/stamped on the cheap? I dunno - but it definitely meets the definition of "generation".
Another good example of a gen1 pre-war SMG is the M31 Suomi
Even the Russians copied the M31's magazine and resulted in the iconic PPSh 41 drum magazine
@@leedesrosiers3382 yeah.. my bad for commenting mid video
@@leedesrosiers3382 and it's a very good video! I really hope he makes a video of the KP44 which the Finns adopted late in the war. Basically a PPS43 copy.
This will one of his most popular vidoes, im calling it.
I'd say the Uzi marks a split in generations, where compact not necessarily pistol format (mag in the grip) handling smgs emerge. Things like the Mac 10 or 11, the Tech 9, and similar guns that try to compete with the Uzi, this generation fizzled out of prominence in the 90's and the 00's, and the Modern generation, spearheaded by the Mp5 is still going strong to this day.
Either way great video!
I'd create another classification, based on the purpose. First 3 gens were made mainly for military: 1st gen was for trench fighting, 2nd mainly for cities close combat. Of course as you mentioned the quality of production is different, but also the construction - horizontal mags are better for prone position, vertical is good when you peak out a bulidings corner etc. 3rd generation was personal weapon for vehicles crews. And nowadays as far as I know SMGs are mainly used by police special forces and sometimes military, also specials, and this type of SMGs I'd call a 4th gen. In general during cold war and later automatic carbines like M16 and AK made SMGs for military infantry mostly obsolete. They are versatile enough to be used both in close combat as well as mid-range up to few hundreds of meters, so they serve purpose of both SMGs and rifles used in WW II. Even vehicle crews became equiped with short versions of carbines, like AKS-74U.
8:44 - "it worked" - Jozef Gabčík wouldnt agree on that (Operation Anthropoid)
To tedy ne.
11:12 I like how he hesitates to call it high quality.
“Bent”
The only smg i've had the pleasure of shooting was Port Said, and it was pure pleasure. The story of how that gun got to the US is certainly top secret.
One of the better made American documentaries I have seen. Good work.
You Know, I've Watched So Many Of Your Videos That I Finally Decided To Subscribe Because Your Knowledge Of Firearms Is Unparalleled. Up Until Now, The Only Other Gun Channel I Subscribed To Was Paul Harrel Because Of His Accurate (No Pun Intended) & Extensive Testing Of Ammunition. You Two Are The Cream Of The Crop . . .
I think, the third generation is more about "bolt-over-the-barrel" compacting (UZI, Ingram, PM-63), rather than about assault rifle downscaling which maybe should be considered the fourth generation. The latter being based on the "same-training-pfotocol" idea as you have pointed out.
By your definition, a Pedersen device would qualify as a 3rd generation SMG if it were full auto.
Gen -1
i say there is a gen 4.
i have seen a lot of SMG's that are moving away from 3 gen defenisions.
they try to add uses or add options u can not have wite a rifle or a pistol.
examples.
the p90 is a very urly one. big magazine, ap, minimal added profile when in use.
the kriss vector, super low recoil end mussel rise.
the H&K MP7, as compakt as posible and jet gaining AP.
the Chang Feng SMG (Type 06)
those are classified as Personal Defence Weapon (PDW). There are some key differences from submachineguns. But in principle, I agree with them being basically 4th gen SMGs.
Love how they use to put 1000 meter sights on these early guns. Because pistol cartridges are well known for their effectiveness past 100 meters.
I really enjoy when Ian discusses classifications of guns, like the mg categories videos.
when i was younger i thought that submachine guns were used on submarines
It seems that Gen 3 have a lot in common with Gen 1, a typical designs for relative peacetime when there is no need to quickly arm half of the population...
I've learned a lot about the history of guns from your channel. A shame I can't own an SMG here in England I'll have to settle with shotguns and rifles. Also a shame you couldn't show the P90, always thought that gun was pretty cool.
You have P.A. Lutys book, gotta DIY that heh
@@GaryHamad I like the idea of making one but I don't want to run the risk, no matter how small, of getting caught with it. I'd be fucked.
@@Krytern so move to the US. We would love to have another ex pat Brit...we have thousands of them now and they are almost normal people (Grin)
I think the 3rd gen splits off in two parts. On one hand you have the exact thing you've stated with the SMGs being scaled down rifles, while on the other hand we also have submachine guns turning into PDWs. One branch focusing on taking the upsides of rifles and applying them to pistol calibers, while the other focuses entirely on emphasizing the massive firepower of a fast-firing SMG at short ranges.
very good point
Great video. The evolution of the battle rifle would make a great 2nd episode
What's that gun behind him with the monster magazine?
I think its the M-1941 Johnson
20 rounds of 30-06 is lovely, ain't it? Wonder why no use BAR mags?
You mean the curved mag? It is M1941 Johnson rifle. It had many parallels with FG-42, but these two weapons did not influence one another. Just happens to solve similar problems and adopted similar solutions
@@vandoo66 ah yeah my bad
My favorite one is the Thompson 1928.
The cops are now after me.
Edit: My new favorite SMG is the PPSH.
Another edit: The Germans are also after me.
The Thompson is neat until you actually handle and shoot one
@@brucerobert227 they're amazingly heavy.
As a semi-auto, Auto Ordnance makes an alloy receiver version that's a lot lighter.
Worked a treat in call of duty. Shame the drum mags are unreliable. Better stick with the Tommy
@@jantschierschky3461, The germans hate the PPSH, The cops hate the Thompson, except when they use it.
@@jantschierschky3461 it's called a joke. Might not be a great one, but that's what it is.
Last time I was this early Ian was shooting in 240p
*generic ww2 tv series*
*Old Forgotten Weapons Intro Intensifies*
By far one of your best videos yet. Thanks Ian!
I personally believe that the Sten is a marvel of innovation. Consider the time in which it was concieved, Britain could not afford the Thompson, obviously they could not get the MP40 beyond what they captured, I doubt Stalin would have sent his PPsH's considering the USSR's dire need.
I dont think the M3 Grease Gun was concieved either at the time the Sten was too.
Were there issues with it? YES.
Could the British have mass produced a similar weapon at the expedience and lack of cost that the Sten offered? I seriously doubt it.
Did it work? Yup.
I have nothing but respect for function over form weapon design. It needed to shoot 9mm bullets at a relatively quick ROF, with reasonable accuracy at close combat and up to 100m ranges, (shooting further with a sub gun of that era was mostly pointless) the Enfields took care of 100+m range targets.
Why is no one talking about the fact that Ian is sitting in front of the muzzle of that MP-5SD?
I’m proposing a generation 2½.
The full auto mode on assault rifles fulfilling some of the functions of the submachine guns.
Incredible how the MP5 was designed in the 50s and to this day is still an unmatched submachine gun. German quality lasting for half a century.
Unless there is a significant development in affordable material or propellent/projectile technology, we are unlikely to see anything beyond some mild refinement, but is it worth doubling the cost for a 10% gain in performance (which is the usual ready reckoner for such things in engineering)
What am I missing here? For 50 years weapons experts have agreed that a third generation submachinegun used a telescoping bolt.
I really wish this video was longer so you would have talked more about Generation 3. I am really curios to dive further into how you define gen 3. Where do guns like the P90 fit in? What about other guns that aren't exactly scaled down rifles, but aren't entirely new designs either?
There is so much more to be said about this topic, so many examples that need to be discussed. Please make a video going more in depth about gen 3!