I see some interesting criticism below, but to my limited knowledge and experience, this looks like very good stuff. Thanks! Three comments/questions: First, around 0:16, "when you just want to carry a single line for the leading, and have a secondary line for rapping" might be more descriptive and accurate to say "when you just want to carry a main line for leading and rapping, and have a secondary, lightweight, non-life support safety line to pull down the main line after using it for one long single-line rappel." Second, around 0:46, why is the lower hanger nearly horizontal and not vertical the same as the stacked anchor/hanger above it? Third, around 2:13, why say "even though all the weight is on my main line" when rapping on both? I'll have to try it, of course, but it seems to me if you hold both lines, or have the autoblock back-up around both lines, then some degree of weight (up to half) would be on the tag line. Not a safety issue since the main line is bomber, even if the tag line lets go.
Regarding your second point, you don't hold onto both lines. Your break hand is only on the larger diameter rope. Therefore, no weight is on the tagline.
To address your question regarding the hanger orientation. The upper (vertically installed) hanger is holding a chain which hangs down, loading the chain and hanger on their narrowest (strongest) axes. The lower hanger has the rap ring installed. The hanger with the integrated rap ring is designed to be installed horizontally so that the ring lies perpendicular to the wall as opposed to flat against it. (Like the chain on the hanger above.) By keeping the ring perpendicular, it makes for smoother rope travel through the hanger when retrieving the rope and avoids the rope being pinched between the hanger and the wall. Hope that answers your question.
If your tag doesn't stretch then rapping on both will cause the main line to shift. However, if the rap is a rope stretcher, this could be beneficial as you will rap to the exact distance allowed by rope stretch and the tag length combined. Regardless, if you prefer to keep your stopper knot in one place as you rap, only rap on the main line (just don't forget to hang on to the tag when you go down).
Any thoughts on having a biner + bight knot in the system as far as getting the rope stuck on the pull? I was tought that one of the reasons the EDK (overhand knot) is used to join two ropes for rappel is because it's less likely to get stuck when pulling the rope after finishing the rappel. I can see the biner+knot in the video getting very jammed in a crack when pulling...
Yes that is true. Buuuut as I think he mentions this is for if you only wanna carry one rope (for the leader). Then you can rappel single strand (a whole rope length or anything more than half). Then you can do this and have the ability to recover all rope and gear! Those tag lines are pretty light, pretty cool stuff.
why not have an a similar overhand not for the tagline and clip that into the biner as well? This would avoid having two diameter ropes tied together and seems easier to undo and redo.
The overhand knot would knot have been loaded hard and should knot be too hard to undue plus if you tied the tag to the biner it would have to be a more complicated knot than an overhand knot?
Is it a good idea to apply the Prusik knot to both ropes at the same time? If you're effectively rappeling down on your main rope (orange) why not putting the prusik just to that one? Anyone has any idea why he did it like that?
@@mar504 I doubt wrapping both instead of just the main line has any effect on the prusik's abillity to be loaded & block, but you're free to experiment and see yourself! :)
Even some small 3mm cords are rated for 2kn so you could even rappel from those. But you can use any cord or rope you can get. Mostly it is like 0,30€/m
Sorta defeats the purpose of being lightweight but I usually just carry a retired climbing rope in my truck and if I'm doing something long enough and I choose to use this technique I just use that!
That lighter material is more prone to tangling and getting hung up, so it's something of a trade-off between using a heavier tagline that handles better and a lighter one. Also, a heavier tagline is less likely to be cut all the way through be rockfall or wear and if you're forced to weight it or even climb on it you'll be happier and safer with something stronger. In practical terms, I'd say that 6 mm is probably the minimum but people do use smaller stuff too.
Jan Boshoff if you’re referring to the blue master point biner, they’re a statically loading it which isfar less force than what most climbing biners are designed for so they’re safe but yes it is best practice to only load one direction
It's a bad idea, but many people get away with it because the carabiners are so strong. But if the person on the left were to fall it wouldn't be a static load. The blue carabiner is a completely unnecessarily added piece of potential failure point.
@@rockklimber if you watched closely at all, you would see he pulled through the anchor chainlink only. the only load the blue carabiner ever got was static temporary security sling for while they both stood on the ledge. still a weird place for it though, no arguing there.
@@rockklimber the load on the blue carabiner is about 120 degrees static and hence not causing a problem. If either climber fell off, the load would be straight down. The only way you could triaxiall load that thing is if each climber had different gravitational fields as they fell off
It's a popular and lengthy multi pitch route in Red Rock Canyon, Nevada. He's implying that it would be useful to have a lightweight tag line to give yourself the option to rappel if you weren't able to reach to standard top-out exit.
A sheet bend would be a better knot for attaching your lines to each other, its essentially the knot's intended purpose - joining two lines of unequal diameter into a longer line.
It's not one anchor, It's a fixe anchor which has 2 bolts placed vertically connected by chain and a rap ring, you are correct in saying that it is just one rap ring but those aren't going to break in any scenario that could be generated climbing or rappelling. Redundant great anchor.
Alternativ set up: Climbing rope and tagline connected with an overhand knot (don't scream out loud => works good enough when well set up). Both in one slot of the ATC (rope diamater not more than 9.7, tag line 6 mm - Tube depending). Lanyard biner in one stran to separate them while abseiling. Rapell. Works perfekt.
@Caedmon Swanson Figure 8s are worse in that scenario. They roll over with less force. The biner should stop it rolling off the end of the rope and killing you, but just use the overhand.
I think there is a mixup of the knots. He's not going to rappel off the flat overhand knot (ie. the EDK) The main load bearing knot on the fat rope is an overhand on a bight. The knot tying the two ropes together is a flat overhand (aka. EDK). He is definitely going to weight the overhand on a bight. A figure eight on a bight would be fine to replace the overhand on a bight.
Agreed - good point. If you can afford to have separate ropes for climbs requiring double rope rappels maybe a couple of 8.5mm Beal Operas (or similar rope) that are rated as single and half would cut the weight to lead, carry and be more versatile.
As long as the tagline is strong enough to recover the abseil line it shouldn't matter what the diameter of the tagline is, but generally I make sure my tagline can be used for abseil tatt, so I keep mine about 7mm (though I think 5mm/6mm is the accepted 'safe' minimum width of tatt to abseil off).
This setup is primarily about weight savings. You could certainly tie two single-rated ropes together, however, this will be a heavier than bringing one single and one length of cord (6mm in this video).
Matt Hasenohr you misunderstood what I mean here. I know it’s a 6 mm tag line. My point is to tie the tag line together with the main rope. Using like normal double ropes. It’s exactly the same system. Even though the diameter is different, that shouldn’t matter. The max force in the rappel system is less than 4 kn which is way below tag line strength. This way the system is simple and clear. I don’t understand why AMGA present a more complicated system.(still safe)
@@larryadventure Its usually not a good idea to tie two different diameter ropes together. Also if the tag line breaks for some reason, such as an abrasion on rocks as you rappel, then the whole system will fail. It is better to rappel on only the main line, while using the tag line to pull the rope when you are done. Of course you can do it another way if you want to, but the AMGA prefers to stick to the safe and redundant methods. Better to be safe when your life is on the line.
@@larryadventure This technique is more for when you are using a grigri or single strand rappel method. AMGA doesn't comprehend this though. They just see a technique in use are try to regurgitate the information. And do a poor job at it.
@@nukeman06jc At 0:22 Dale mentions The Diamond which is what my buddy and I did this past August. We rapped the whole way down on the Escaper. Truly brilliant product.
Why were you using such a large carabiner at the end. Your stopper knot clearly went right through that and you were 2 seconds away from that knot running away from you and heading up the face.
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bzivN4KDg-k/mqdefault.jpg)
Good info. We use this or a similar technique in Canyoneering to constantly be retrieving our rope as we are travelling down a canyon.
Thank you for the good information. I finally have found this info to retrieve the rope.
Thankyou for the video. Always a pleasure to watch your tutorial videos.
2:35 always weight your rappel system before coming off of PAS.
Also undo the stopper knot *before* you start pulling the tagline. Got lucky it snagged on the biner.
@@FallLineJPhe didn’t get lucky. If you listened, he said he clipped it to himself intentionally to make sure he actually untied it.
Wouldn't an alpine butterfly be a better knot for blocking the rope with the carabiner?
Since nobody answered you. Yes. Alpine butterfly. Can be loaded both directions
Nice I can finally make some use of these 30m ropes
I see some interesting criticism below, but to my limited knowledge and experience, this looks like very good stuff. Thanks! Three comments/questions: First, around 0:16, "when you just want to carry a single line for the leading, and have a secondary line for rapping" might be more descriptive and accurate to say "when you just want to carry a main line for leading and rapping, and have a secondary, lightweight, non-life support safety line to pull down the main line after using it for one long single-line rappel." Second, around 0:46, why is the lower hanger nearly horizontal and not vertical the same as the stacked anchor/hanger above it? Third, around 2:13, why say "even though all the weight is on my main line" when rapping on both? I'll have to try it, of course, but it seems to me if you hold both lines, or have the autoblock back-up around both lines, then some degree of weight (up to half) would be on the tag line. Not a safety issue since the main line is bomber, even if the tag line lets go.
Regarding your second point, you don't hold onto both lines. Your break hand is only on the larger diameter rope. Therefore, no weight is on the tagline.
To address your question regarding the hanger orientation. The upper (vertically installed) hanger is holding a chain which hangs down, loading the chain and hanger on their narrowest (strongest) axes. The lower hanger has the rap ring installed. The hanger with the integrated rap ring is designed to be installed horizontally so that the ring lies perpendicular to the wall as opposed to flat against it. (Like the chain on the hanger above.) By keeping the ring perpendicular, it makes for smoother rope travel through the hanger when retrieving the rope and avoids the rope being pinched between the hanger and the wall. Hope that answers your question.
If your tag doesn't stretch then rapping on both will cause the main line to shift. However, if the rap is a rope stretcher, this could be beneficial as you will rap to the exact distance allowed by rope stretch and the tag length combined. Regardless, if you prefer to keep your stopper knot in one place as you rap, only rap on the main line (just don't forget to hang on to the tag when you go down).
Petzl cashing in on the free advertising here.
It would definitely suck if you forget to undo your stopper knot before pulling the Rope up.
Any thoughts on having a biner + bight knot in the system as far as getting the rope stuck on the pull? I was tought that one of the reasons the EDK (overhand knot) is used to join two ropes for rappel is because it's less likely to get stuck when pulling the rope after finishing the rappel. I can see the biner+knot in the video getting very jammed in a crack when pulling...
Yes that is true. Buuuut as I think he mentions this is for if you only wanna carry one rope (for the leader). Then you can rappel single strand (a whole rope length or anything more than half). Then you can do this and have the ability to recover all rope and gear! Those tag lines are pretty light, pretty cool stuff.
The qd at 2:20 that’s holding the rope and tag line: is that clipped to the top tie in loop on his harness?
Yes. An honestly really bizarre way of doing that. Only fabric should pass through your tie in point ever. This practice was negligent.
What do you do it the ropes do get twisted or if the carabiner/knot does get stuck when you are pulling it?
Then you apply your problem solving skills.
why not have an a similar overhand not for the tagline and clip that into the biner as well? This would avoid having two diameter ropes tied together and seems easier to undo and redo.
Paul Lee either way would work as long as it’s tied solid
The overhand knot would knot have been loaded hard and should knot be too hard to undue plus if you tied the tag to the biner it would have to be a more complicated knot than an overhand knot?
Ayyy is that the Great Red Book???
Came here to say the same, looks like it!
Why did you use just one point of the anchor ?
Why weight the Master (blue) carabiner triaxly?
Just my 2 cents.....
Is it a good idea to apply the Prusik knot to both ropes at the same time? If you're effectively rappeling down on your main rope (orange) why not putting the prusik just to that one? Anyone has any idea why he did it like that?
Presumably to just avoid the tag line flopping around loosely; it makes for a neater system overall.
@@Leander_ It may be neater, but I think the question is does it change how effective the prusik is at holding the main line?
@@mar504 I doubt wrapping both instead of just the main line has any effect on the prusik's abillity to be loaded & block, but you're free to experiment and see yourself! :)
I know its not weighted at all and is just there to pull the repel line down, but what do people tend to use for a tag line?
Even some small 3mm cords are rated for 2kn so you could even rappel from those. But you can use any cord or rope you can get. Mostly it is like 0,30€/m
Sorta defeats the purpose of being lightweight but I usually just carry a retired climbing rope in my truck and if I'm doing something long enough and I choose to use this technique I just use that!
That lighter material is more prone to tangling and getting hung up, so it's something of a trade-off between using a heavier tagline that handles better and a lighter one. Also, a heavier tagline is less likely to be cut all the way through be rockfall or wear and if you're forced to weight it or even climb on it you'll be happier and safer with something stronger. In practical terms, I'd say that 6 mm is probably the minimum but people do use smaller stuff too.
I thought it was a bad idea to load a carabiner in 3 directions?
Jan Boshoff if you’re referring to the blue master point biner, they’re a statically loading it which isfar less force than what most climbing biners are designed for so they’re safe but yes it is best practice to only load one direction
It's a bad idea, but many people get away with it because the carabiners are so strong. But if the person on the left were to fall it wouldn't be a static load. The blue carabiner is a completely unnecessarily added piece of potential failure point.
@@rockklimber if you watched closely at all, you would see he pulled through the anchor chainlink only. the only load the blue carabiner ever got was static temporary security sling for while they both stood on the ledge.
still a weird place for it though, no arguing there.
I looked closely. Save your condescension for your. children and pay attention to what I actually said.
@@rockklimber the load on the blue carabiner is about 120 degrees static and hence not causing a problem. If either climber fell off, the load would be straight down. The only way you could triaxiall load that thing is if each climber had different gravitational fields as they fell off
I am not sure I understand the "epinephrine" at 0:33
Can someone explain to me ?
It's a popular and lengthy multi pitch route in Red Rock Canyon, Nevada. He's implying that it would be useful to have a lightweight tag line to give yourself the option to rappel if you weren't able to reach to standard top-out exit.
A sheet bend would be a better knot for attaching your lines to each other, its essentially the knot's intended purpose - joining two lines of unequal diameter into a longer line.
the advantage of the flat overhand is the knot is much less likely to get hung up or stuck on a lip.
Why do they "commit to one anchor" when there is another rap ring right there?
It's not one anchor, It's a fixe anchor which has 2 bolts placed vertically connected by chain and a rap ring, you are correct in saying that it is just one rap ring but those aren't going to break in any scenario that could be generated climbing or rappelling. Redundant great anchor.
He is on a single anchor with no redundancy. Stupid
@@JohnSmith-ed1sr he is on two bolts..
Rapring directly connected to one. And chain to the other
can u use a grigri for rappel with a tagline and dich the third hand?
it would work, but it increases your chance of losing control of the tagline. make sure you don't lose that tagline if you are doing multiple rappels.
@@rockklimber can always put tag into carabineer on harness
Thanks for sharing such formal information
Alternativ set up: Climbing rope and tagline connected with an overhand knot (don't scream out loud => works good enough when well set up). Both in one slot of the ATC (rope diamater not more than 9.7, tag line 6 mm - Tube depending). Lanyard biner in one stran to separate them while abseiling. Rapell. Works perfekt.
I thought he said he wasn't going to rappel off the overhand knot. Did I miss something?
@Caedmon Swanson Figure 8s are worse in that scenario. They roll over with less force. The biner should stop it rolling off the end of the rope and killing you, but just use the overhand.
@@joestevenson5568 Rethreaded figure 8 would be fine. Flat 8 is a no-no.
I think there is a mixup of the knots.
He's not going to rappel off the flat overhand knot (ie. the EDK)
The main load bearing knot on the fat rope is an overhand on a bight. The knot tying the two ropes together is a flat overhand (aka. EDK).
He is definitely going to weight the overhand on a bight. A figure eight on a bight would be fine to replace the overhand on a bight.
This is what@Caedmon Swanson said, he didnt rappel off the edk (but he could)
super méthode pour coincer la corde et ne rien avoir pour aller la décoincer
The major downside is that if anything goes wrong when pulling, you risk having nothing but some tag line to work with.
This happened to me rapping Frigid Air Buttress. Luckily the party after rescued our stuck ropes (And subsequently got theirs stuck rip)
@@sylvernale Wow that is good luck for you! Yea this hazard is quite scary. Be careful out there :-)
Agreed - good point. If you can afford to have separate ropes for climbs requiring double rope rappels maybe a couple of 8.5mm Beal Operas (or similar rope) that are rated as single and half would cut the weight to lead, carry and be more versatile.
dose the diameter of the tag line matter ?
As long as the tagline is strong enough to recover the abseil line it shouldn't matter what the diameter of the tagline is, but generally I make sure my tagline can be used for abseil tatt, so I keep mine about 7mm (though I think 5mm/6mm is the accepted 'safe' minimum width of tatt to abseil off).
Anybody know what route this is?
It's the Great Red Book in Red Rock Nevada
@@rampagingvenusaur3819 Thanks!
Your rope straight through an anchor bolt and overhand knots! This is JV 101!
This knot is not an integrative knot
Why not just tie both rope together with flat overhand then rappel down with 2 strains. Like normal 2 ropes rappel. Keep the system simple.
That's a good question. I'd like to know the answer. Are tag lines not rated for rappelling, or is there another reason?
This setup is primarily about weight savings. You could certainly tie two single-rated ropes together, however, this will be a heavier than bringing one single and one length of cord (6mm in this video).
Matt Hasenohr you misunderstood what I mean here. I know it’s a 6 mm tag line. My point is to tie the tag line together with the main rope. Using like normal double ropes. It’s exactly the same system. Even though the diameter is different, that shouldn’t matter. The max force in the rappel system is less than 4 kn which is way below tag line strength. This way the system is simple and clear. I don’t understand why AMGA present a more complicated system.(still safe)
@@larryadventure Its usually not a good idea to tie two different diameter ropes together. Also if the tag line breaks for some reason, such as an abrasion on rocks as you rappel, then the whole system will fail. It is better to rappel on only the main line, while using the tag line to pull the rope when you are done. Of course you can do it another way if you want to, but the AMGA prefers to stick to the safe and redundant methods. Better to be safe when your life is on the line.
@@larryadventure This technique is more for when you are using a grigri or single strand rappel method. AMGA doesn't comprehend this though. They just see a technique in use are try to regurgitate the information. And do a poor job at it.
or, just use the Beal's Escaper and you need no tag line :)
Haha! No thanks!
@@nukeman06jc
At 0:22 Dale mentions The Diamond which is what my buddy and I did this past August. We rapped the whole way down on the Escaper. Truly brilliant product.
Why were you using such a large carabiner at the end. Your stopper knot clearly went right through that and you were 2 seconds away from that knot running away from you and heading up the face.
Because this guy is not smart , everything in this video is wrong
@@JohnSmith-ed1sr "everything" eh? Like what?