How to Long Rappel! (Tag lines)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ก.ค. 2024
- Hey Betaclimbers, in this episode we go through how to set up a long rappel. There may come a time in your climbing career where you question the length of how far it is to the next anchors. If you think your rope may be to short for a half rope rappel, then you can lower your partner down to the next anchor. If the middle of your rope ends up passing by during the lowering then you will have to set up a long rappel. You will need a tag line in order to retrieve your rope, if you didn’t bring one then hope that you can scavenge enough length out of cordelette and slings! If you enjoyed this content don’t forget to like, comment and subscribe for more. Thanks
My Merch Store!
www.etsy.com/shop/BetaCoDesigns
Here is a Discord link, come join the fun!
/ discord
You can click this link to see more of my videos!
/ betaclimbers
My amazon store where I put products I talk about in my videos. (affiliate link)
www.amazon.com/shop/betaclimbers
Instagram - BetaClimber
Why not just use a clove hitch for the Biner block? The problem with the alpine butterfly is that the knot could go through, but not the biner. That being said, trying to pull your tag line could be impossible because the knot became a biner block.
In other words, you have a biner block on both sides because the knot pulled through, but not the biner.
Also, in the canyoneering community, people usually don’t tie stopper knots because they can get stuck in cracks, and it is easy to forget to untie the knot.
I suppose thats another way to skin a cat it can certainly be done might give you tad bit more rope too. Only problem is the clove hitch can travel around when it gets loose so it wouldn’t be something to use if you had to make an emergency drop and come back to jumar up another day or something.
The butterfly is usually more recommended and I never had an issue with it before. But If I ever found myself in a situation where it pulled through I’d tel my self...hey if it pulled through once it will pull through again and I’d then continue by going hard as a mother on it to get it free. 😂 then I’d use the clove hitch method from then on. So great point! I haven’t ever tried it that way so I’ll have to see what it’s like. But sounds bomber to me. 🤙🏻
@@BetaClimbers +1 for the clove hitch. I had a naughty knot once jammed into a biner. Chainlinks however are smaller..
I am all for clove hitches in a lot of situations, but not this one. The idea of the alpine butterfly is that it does not pass through the biner (if loop is appropriate length). The idea that the biner is blocking is really a worst case situation (note that the other tail of the alpine butterfly and tag line have to be pulled through for this to happen), not the way you expect the system to be loaded. You don't want to be cross/side loading biners against each other, which is what would be happening in that case. The alpine butterfly will prevent this most of the time. Additionally, like is stated in the video, it is stable while being pulled in the two directions that it would be in this scenario. I doubt you're going to die on the clove hitch method, but you're losing a ley advantage that comes from the butterfly.
really love how you go from begining to end demostrating the whole process thanks!
Arvin W Thanks, I appreciate it. 🤙🏻
Thank you so much for these videos. You are an encyclopedia of information (wikipedia for those younger than me ;)
Haha excellent video, you have saved some lives
hey i've been watching your vids man keep up the great content!! i just tested/climbed my first top rope solo today and it went great :)
Sweet! Thanks I appreciate the support!
Enjoyed thank you Dude. Appreciate the skills.
"Boom. Whoop! And then they're dead."
Savage....
When i was climbing i always used 2 half ropes. Never had any problem rapelling anywhere and additionally enjoyed a pretty much increased safety everywhere.
Max Headshot Sounds like a great way to do it. 👍🏻 When I was rappelling off el cap I used my haul lines as tag line. But I can see certain situations where just bringing a light tag line would be nice too.
@@BetaClimbers I have to admit that i have no big wall experience and was only climbing on the european theater some 25 years ago. lol
I'm pretty sure that in Yosemite things could be quite different. ;)
Max Headshot yeah things are just alittle bigger there lol 😂
I would 100% buy an “I’m climbing outta here” shirt
informative thanks brah
could you do/have you done a video about rappelling off two ropes? Thanks!
Any tip for rappelling directly on a 6mm line like the petzl RAD line or the edelrid rapline protect pro dry (what a mouthful)?
Seems to be popular in the skimo world or other applications where you wouldn’t necessarily bring a full rated single rope 🤓🤔
How about a Clove Hitch Carabiner Block on the pull side?
In the picture can you please tell me what rope is the orange fleck rope? My rock climbing instructor gave me a decent length. It's about 12mm dynamic rope? I don't know what brand or strength? Any reply appreciated cheers from Australia just subbed.nice work!🙂👍👍👍
Hi there, I’m curious why you prefer the two knot set up to the EDK when attaching the tag line to the single rope. Won’t the three total knots and the optional additional carabiner increase the likelihood of a stuck rope scenario? The nice thing about the edk and butterfly is that they dance around edges when pulling ropes... not sure what the advantage of your set up at the end of the video is. Maybe to save time by being able to thread the single rope more easily at the next belay? Either way best practice is to haul the entire length of single rope up once it’s pulled to tie a stopper knot. Anyways, love the video just trying to figure out the most efficient way to use a tag line on multi pitch/alpine rappels
Thanks for the comment. In my mind if there was a stuck scenario I would feel safer yanking and jumpin and whippin around on the double overhand method I showed. I have a feeling that the EDK has a more roll out danger when dealing with a smaller sized diameter tag lines (one might even use a smaller one than I displayed here). I suppose doing two EDKs might not be a bad idea either if you want the benefits with bit more back up. To be honest when climbing you need to know what is the right knot for the right moment. For example one possible solution can just be tying the joining knot lower past an edge that would cause some possible "stuckage" for you later lol ( assuming your anchor is above a ledge and you have enough rope length). Hope that makes sense.
I got 80m masonry rope instead of cordelette. It's lighter and more compact than having to carry 60m of 6mm cordelette. BTW. I've been doing a whole lot of top rope solo after watching your top rope solo video. I went out and bought two traxions and a grigri. It's so much fun being able to climb by myself! :D
HaasGrotesk That’s awesome right on! 🤙🏻
I've tried this before. It is a hell to untangle after you pulled down the rope. Maybe if you spool it up during the process it can work better...
@@LaszloMegyeri Yeah, I got it on a spool. Never had any issues with entanglement but I can see it being a problem. Just keep the rope on a spool.
What abolutnie carabiner falling down together with a rope? It might hit The rocks and get damaged?
Great stuff. I have a question. What are you thoughts on the Macrame knot? AKA Ghost knot or Himalayan knot
I never used it before, looks like it’s uses up a bit of rope length.
@@BetaClimbers it’s pretty cool but scary to us
Clever
I didn’t have time to go get my snack
That seems like a better idea than taking 2 ropes up and using them like half ropes. is there a way of doing the same but without dropping a Biner 30 odd metres?
Hayden Schulz well I suppose if you wanted there are two ways you can do that. One would be cutting the biner out of the equation and do a threaded alpine butterfly around the rope but that would be soft on soft .( which is a no no, but granted thought it would be without weight) Option two would be, when you get down to the lower anchor tie the tag line to the end of the rappel line so it makes one big loop. Of course that second option you will have to pass that knot through that biner half way when pulling it down. So unless it was a big biner that would be annoying or impossible.
Thirdly if your long rappel gave you a lot of extra rope that biner wouldnt fall far at all.
Hope that made sense lol
Can you use a tag line to bring proper climbing lines on the way up a multi pitch?
I was thinking of trying snake dike next year and setting up 3 tag lines on the first 3 pitches in the late afternoon before my climb. That way in the morning I can use the tag lines to set up top ropes for the first three pitches in order to speed me and my brother up to the 4th pitch real early in the day and start leading from there. Does this sound like something that’s possible if I’m setting up my own trad anchors so I’m not in anybody’s way?
Maybe climb with double ropes then link and fix the first 3 pitches
Another reason you may want to use knots instead of caribeners at the top is so you do t have metal things flying down at you when you pull the rope through it that’s what helmets are for
What happens if the GRIGRI fails for some reason , or you get hit by a thunder or a rock? Isn't it safer to do a prussiks knot attached to your harness below the GRIGRI for safety ?
A Prussic on a grigri will only interfere with it, the grigri self breaks. If you put a prussic above a grigri it can either pull don’t on the caming device and cause the grigri to not work or the prussic can engage and you will keep getting stuck. If you put the prussic below the grigri you will have problems tending the break line.
When rappelling with the grigri the break line needs to have adjusted pressure and needs to be pulled to the side of the device. A prussic would just hinder you from doing this. If a grigri is working probably you could pass out an you would just hang there till some one rescued you.
Now that being said, if I was on a rope that was pretty thin and using a grigri that was pretty worn and I noticed slipping I would probably put a prussic on the break end just to be safe. But then you would need to rig it in such a way that if didn’t buttup against the grigri. Or you can just make sure you have an end knot in the rope and if you slowly slipped down you would slip to the end knot.
A lot of what you do in climbing is situational you need to be able to make the right decision in what ever your given situation is. Hope that helps.
Small tip: when doing this make sure the rap is straight down. We had to go over a small ledge on a long climb in the Rockies and with the multiple knots and carabineer Darwins law is in full effect, it will get stuck on something if it's not a perfect rap station.
I believe you mean Murphey's law
Could a figure 8 knot be used instead of a alpine butterfly? Thanks!
yeah, and then you could put an older carabiner or quick draw on the loop the figure 8 makes as a back up. we use figure 8 on a bite, quick draw on that loop then other side of the draw clipped to the strand you rappel on. Then when you get to the bottom, pull on the figure 8 strand to get your rope back.
Yes, HOWEVER. The alpine butterfly is able to hold a load out to the sides of the knot much better than a figure 8. So basically, alpine hitch rope pull sideways, figure 8 rope pull straight. Which is also why a figure 8 is the standard attachment point, because there should be no significant weight on your rope below you.
Instead of say chain, could this same anchor method be used on a tree for example? or perhaps a standard roof anchor found on commercial buildings?
well i guess a roof anchor would be kinda too big for the knot... but yeahh
Commercial work usually has a whole no level of safety Standards like always being connected to two ropes at all times.
However I believe roofers are only connect to one rope with a rope grab and a full body harness.
Also tree workers use one line as well but have different methods to retrieve there lines. (Search friction savers) I’d also imagine their ropes are usually long enough but maybe they could implement this method if they needed to. They would just have to mange one more line which might get to messy for them. Lol they also would have one more line to worry about the ground guy throwing in the chipper.
Im not sure,if this answers your question but, I use a static rope with a sewn eye (you could also burn a hole through and thread para cord for same effect) I tie a fig. 8 on a bighy on the end with the eye and clip a,biner through the. Fig 8. And run the tail end of my rope around my anchor point (usually a tree branch sometimes a solid point on a bridge) and through the biner. So its basically girth hitched around your anchor with the sewn eye sticking out as a tail. I then clip use a biner attached,to 4mm cordlette and clip it onto the eye. Then you either run the tails in your atc and rappel down or rappel down with it in a bag and use your grigri. The klein bags at home depot work perfect as tagline bags also. Theyre about 12 inches,by 8 inches and For 14$ i cant complain. Theyre waterproof and abrasion proof mine currently holds 130ft of line, and,it allllll feeds,out smoothly while the bag is zippped
Isn't it dangerous if the carabiner attached to the knot would slide through those two carabiners/stand? On a smaller ring on the wall OK, but not those two carabiners.
Hey Josh, time to get new videos out dude!
In the meantime… Would you just tie the tagline straight to the locking biner you first used to ensure the main rope won’t go through the chain links?
😂
?!
@@rafanubi oh didn’t see the question my bad lol tag line to the locker hmmm 🤔 I think if you did that then the loop of the tag line would naturally fall next to the main line when pulling down. So you would then get some rope on rope action, and also possible manipulation of the locker. I think your better off tying to the rope honestly…
@@BetaClimbers hmmm good point! Maybe not a big issue on straight rappels, but something to look out on traverses.
I've been told to use 7mm instead of 6mm because the difference in kN is substantial. I wanna say like 7.5kN for 6mm and 13kN for 7mm not including any knots you might tie.
7mm is also better for making all kinds of anchors and slings if you need to in a pinch. generally fine to rappel on with the right device/setup.
Instead of using the alpine butterfly with the carabiner to keep the rope from passing through, can you do a bhk (BFK) knot on a bite, grab the other end, pass it through the link and through the bite? This keeps it from passing through when weighted. This eliminates using carabiners and the bite won’t get tight. Then tie the tag line to the bite. I don’t see why this won’t work.
If rapelling with a grigri:
Wouldnt it make more sense to put the rapelling end through the loop of the alpine butterfly, so if you pull down your rope, you wont ger smacked by the biner? 🤔
I think you get rope rubbing one rope then and it can burn through
@@SuperBialyWilk impossible
Can't you tie the tag line to the biner?
You can but if it unclips your going to have a rope climb ahead of you. Lol
Are you cross loading the biner block on the 2 biners holding the rope? I understand SRT setups and do not do this because of cross loading
tying the stopper knot to yourself is a great idea! getting your rope stuck is probably the most un-fun thing that can happen when your dead tired coming off a multi-pitch route lol
Ryan Smith yeah that would be a day ruiner lol 😂
I don't know if I am using the correct term but I think an "opposing figure 8" is the best knot to connect 2 ropes of different diameter.
Love your videos ! I've watched lots of thet with great interest. Keep on!
You can repel of two ends of a rope with a Grigio are you just tie one end to your master point on your harness and just use the other end onto your Grigri it is quite good for if you don’t bring an ATC to a climbing crag
man you young guys are all about safety. all we ever did was make a harness out of rope, rap a static line thru a carabiner 2 or 3 times and go no backup ,no safety line.
this very complex rap setup is one of several reasons grigris suck. use an ATC and treat it like double ropes (w/ backup 3rd hand) - done
The point is that you can rap double the length of a normal rappel (~70m, rather than ~35m). I agree you should basically always have an ATC, but this is an important skill to learn, nonetheless.
What is so dangerous about military - single carabiner rappelling.
I understand you want to sell all the extra equipment, but making the set up so confusing will cause injuries. Simple single carbineer wrap: Wrap rope once around spine for fun rappel or double wrap for caution/thin rope.
It twists the rope
I guess, the mil uses this method to quickly get ppl from a helicopter to the ground (never seen it in my mil time, but only load/unloaded while on the ground). I think in the helicopter scenario having an unconscious person hanging in the rope could endanger the rest of the troupes.
In rock climbing, you don't wan to fall all the way to the ground. Even if you tie a stopper knot to your harness, you could seriously get injured on the way down. So I prefer to stay save and save my friends the most amount of trouble during a possible rescue.
wut
Who really climbs with a tag line 60m long though?
I have seen a simpler method
you need really need learn how to fix you daisy chain to your harness. You do not instill much confidence. a over had knot will not go through the quicklinks.