Life Without Men: The 4B Movement
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
- Learning from the history of Korean women to understand contemporary gender wars.
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editing by Danae O.
thumbnail by @BABILA.
voiceovers by heyhajpaj (TikTok) and Courtney Park (courtneeypark on TikTok) and also Danae for the wink sound effect
special thanks to Haeryun Kang, Nellie Karengo, Lily Alexandre, Hawon Jung
00:00 introduction
03:57 what is the 4b movement?
08:48 the marriage strike
23:09 women in korea: a brief history
41:17 missing the forest for the bears
1:03:58 conclusion: bottari
Selected Bibliography
Forest Dilemma: Man vs. Bear, TikTok Trend! by screenshothq www.tiktok.com/@screenshothq/...
Addressing Gender Gap and Low Birth Rate in Korea | 4B Movement by jeaniekwon www.tiktok.com/@denimchromoso...
Jung, H. (2023). Flowers of fire: The inside story of South Korea’s feminist movement and what it means for women’s rights worldwide. BenBella Books, Inc.
Pak, M. (2005). Birth of Resistance: Stories of Eight Women Worker Activists. Korea Democracy Foundation.
The Straits Times (2024). Only half of South Koreans willing to marry; fewer want kids. THE KOREA HERALD/ASIA NEWS NETWORK. www.straitstimes.com/asia/eas....
A History of Korean Women - The Understanding Korea Series (UKS) 12. www.aks.ac.kr/ikorea/cms/usr/...
This video brought back memories honestly by Yuvaltheterrible www.tiktok.com/@yuvaltheterri...
This comment pissed me TF off by Kyla Hsia www.tiktok.com/@kylahsia/vide...
Lee, W. (2019). Responding to Misogyny, Reciprocating Hate Speech - South Korea's Online Feminism Movement: Megalia. Harvard Graduate School of Arts and Sciences.
Turner, P. (2024). South Korea’s hostility to LGBT issues is a failure to uphold basic human rights. Korea Pro.
koreapro.org/2024/03/south-ko...
Jung, H. (2023) The South Korean woman who adopted her best friend. AlJazeera. www.aljazeera.com/features/20...
Lee, J. (2015). Sooja Kim’s Wrapping Cloth: The Aesthetics of Paradox. Woman’s Art Journal, 36(1), 19-26. www.jstor.org/stable/26430739
Healy, K. (2017). Fuck Nuance. American Sociological Association, Vol. 35(2) 118-127. - บันเทิง
"Our birthrates are down because of a small amount of radical women, not because of corporate consolidation of the entire country!"
😅 They are constantly and consistently blaming the wrong things, while simultaneously clinging to the colonial and corporate power structures that are _demonstrably_ killing us and this planet 😟
Actually birthrates are down because of the rising poverty rates along with the larger 1% of the planet holding the majority of the wealth....u can't have kids if you can't even afford to feed your self
If theres something a conservative and capitalist system gonna do its to deflect while calling the defectors of a system the issue while ignoring the real issue
@@TreeHairedGingerAle Dude in America, I've noticed this too. Feels infuriating that I can see what's holding us back, but other dudes don't get it and many seemingly don't want to get it.
@@TreeHairedGingerAle you really think that a democratically run oil company will care about nature more ?
This movement will be a separate semester in Gender Studies one day.
How online platforms promote radfem propaganda?
@@hjerizthe movement is not radfem, its radical but not "radfem". The people who engage with it online can be toxic but this is true for literally every single thing that is discussed online, the actual meat of the movement is the ways korean women are supporting each other in real life, finding ways to live independently from traditionalism, and reclaiming their autonomy both personally and legally. And thats what should be discussed most when talking about the movement
@@hjeriz this isnt rad fem. women just wanna be safe.
@@babybee2025 this is basicity repacked political lesbianism.
@@babybee2025 this is basically repacked political lesbianism -- the online phenomenon not the korean one. We have been here before, we know whats wrong with this and yet 3/4 decades later we still dont call it out.
Pregnancy does more than cause pain and cause health complications, it ages your body. If you don't have access to proper nutrition it can impact bone density. The lack of health/ sex ed in schools is a cost to us all, with so many poorly informed on issues that many are too embarrassed to inform themselves on. It's hard to even evaluate what it is that you don't know.
THIS, like my Mom literally got a freak blood clot during her first one and almost died, pregnancy isn't something to be taken lightly or for granted, and it's absolutely insane that cis women are expected to just go along with that, regardless of their own desires
My mother got a epidural for me and my brother, witch made her back horrible, her bones and legs hurt every day, she has painful varicose veins is very thought giving birth.
My mother did not get it too bad like almost dying but she did get diabetes and all her teeth started falling out. Pregnancy really does take a toll on your quality of life and there is a big chance that you will never recover from it. Not to mention how all the responsibility of raising the children falls back on to the mother always, which leads to more stress.
@@apersonwhohasnothing Oh gods, same with the teeth. I feel for my mum so much, she was so young, in so much pain and so self-conscious that she never wanted to laugh or smile open. I literally ruined her, it hurts.
@@vidarrimini5109 lmao
I don't think this is just a trend. I believe the more women talk about this, the more women will want to leave men alone. This movement started a conversation among women and the gaslighting we feel we can see that others are going to it.
4N movement let' go
Yep. Not a trend, that is understimating and minimizing this political action. Hope women in South Korea (and in the world) get really trascendental advances in equality. For real
The fact is, men don't want women, either.
I think the best take away is that it’s better to be alone than to be with a partner who doesn’t share your values. Male or female or anyone in between. It’s a good thing that we’re no longer required to form traditional families if we don’t want to.
@@thepagecollective I don't know if your angle here is societal observation or misogyny, but I think you may be right. A lot of the dudes who get mad over women not wanting them and degrade and deride and put down women for considering not being with men don't even attempt to consider what the women are saying, and I never see them say anything about why they want women or what they even like about women, they seemingly just feel rage that women don't want *them* like they're *supposed to* by their divine rite of being born female. It does make me wonder if a lot of the dudes getting pissy at women telling them to step up or get left behind even like women. Maybe if more dudes talked about women and acted towards women in a way that suggested they see their value, worth, and beauty, that they desire, want, respect, and value womens company, style, thoughts, contributions, etc., maybe we wouldn't have such a sharp gender divide we're seeing. Recently I've considered that, if men talked to and about women the way I tend to see lesbians talk about women, just about how they adore everything about women, I think it very well may be the case that there'd be a lot of dudes who'd be finding girlfriends and getting laid instead of being angry misogynists and incels online.
I am pretty sure that a lot of women want to get married or have children but at this point in society is better to just stay single and childfree because there is no support for them
Basically. It's too dangerous.
That would cause a social collapse
I'm an nb male, but as someone who would like to have kids some day if ever I could afford it, this is where I'm at. All the screaming about the end of humanity, and nobody is making a push to raise the economy such that we're not all tired and working 3 jobs, and still barely making rent, let alone f*cking raising a child. As it stands I'm planning on getting my tubes tied because i don't want to bring children into this world for as long as it looks like there's no indication it's going to get better anytime soon. If and when I do have kids I'll look towards adoption, if nothing else I can try to help an already living kid(s) have a better life after they've already been dealt a bad hand.
@@MuhammadAlkomy then maybe society should do something about it
@@jeffersonclippership2588 It has always been a sacrifice to find a spouse and bear children with them, but people did it because it's virtuous to do so. However, people these days in the west and other developed countries are too selfish and think only of themselves and their bank account. There's also more access now to contraceptives and abortion.
I have to say I disagree with the notion that women in the west who participate in 4B are “appropriating” the struggles of women in Korea-we as women ALL face oppression of the same nature: patriarchy. The 4B movement decreases male influence on a woman’s life, and is inherently empowering in that way. Our Korean sisters are brave and surely pleased when women around the world learn from their ideas.
It’s also not new to the west! 2nd wave feminists in the 70s had sex strikes, there was a whole movement of lesbians called “political lesbians” which were women who refused to date or marry men and would date other women even if they were not attracted to women out of protest of sexism in the household. Sounds very very very similar to 4B… hell the 2nd wave feminists even had a mix of trans supportive and transphobic feminists in their movement. That is the movement which birthed the name trans exclusionary radical feminist (as radical feminist was the name 2nd wave feminists generally called themselves$
You lose all credibility when you unironically use the term patriarchy with a straight face. That word is misused, overused online, and is now a joke.
first, NO, women in the West don't have the struggles of women in Korea or Asia in general. Patriarchy is something everybody has to deal with not just women, and don't even say that because men build it, women also put a lot of help setting that up throughout history.
second, The 4B movement decreases male influence on a woman’s life, yes it USED TO BE that. Until it became a misandrist movement focused solely on smearing and humiliating men.
The situation in Korea is much more complex because is not just conflict between men and women but also family, culture, social class, and politics. I'm not saying men aren't wrong but it doesn't mean women are right, it is not always black and white like that.
@@coolskeleton2767 Woman gave birth to everyone men built everything we all do our part.
@coolskeleton2767 Ah yes, the anti abortion, the S/A culture, the stalking, no shared struggles at all /s
My SIL was k 1 ll 3d by her husband recently because she became useless and unattractive to him, her only purpose was an incubator to him, but sure! We have NO overlap with S Korean struggles.
You are nitpicking things that are obvious, struggles across countries, and at this point across STATES are not in perfect alignment, but there is no matriarchy Anywhere, patriarchy is, there will always be major overlap.
Learn, educate, don't shut down others who have overlapping struggles and tell them they need to wallow in their oppression and be doormats because you Assume we all have it better or that our flavor of patriarchy is just too different.
elliot !!!! i have been telling people for YEARS about the association of femininity w/ nature and how it plays into colonialist ideals of domination but no one has ever taken that point seriously. to hear u say it in this video made me jump out my seat. this one was well worth the wait and effort, thank u so much for ur work 🤍
there is a lot of academia on this, not a new concept, colonialism has always been depicted as androcentric and domination based
That's a foundation of eco-feminism.
@@greyfox4838 thanks for letting me know, figured it wasn't new cuz what really is now adays lol. just happy i now have a name to the theory, appreciate it 🙏🏼🤍
@@tamararoberson8060 something i will be reading more of ! adding it to the list
If you speak to people in colonized countries, they're clear about patriarchy, imperialism and colonialism all being the same root.
I'm a guy.
Guys who are being hysterical and calling feminism misandry don't understand how much toxic masculinity and current image of a "REAL MAN" hurts men a lot. Current role of man is of someone at power, but at the cost of their humanity being mangled - fuck that shit. My father despite being a very kind person at his core, was taught from the childhood all these bullshit standarts about not showing feelings, not seeking help if needed, that his only role is to bring money to the family, and this role also justifies all the abuse. And if you chose not to follow these standarts, you are being shamed for not being masculine enough. How the hell guys don't understand, that feminists don't hate men - they hate this toxic image. Maybe being cockblocked at mass will open their eyes.
"How the hell guys don't understand, that feminists don't hate men - they hate this toxic image."
i like to give the benefit of the doubt and say that most of them either 1) had impactful negative experiences with feminists (of whatever kind) or 2) just believed what they were (constantly) told 🤷🏿♂
You talk about not following standards like it’s easy. It’s easy for me but only because I’m autistic. I think you ultimately lack empathy for them because otherwise you would know that not following standards is hard not just because of internal pressure but external pressure too.
Us men being brainwashed into accepting our disposability and becoming stoic tough guys who work hard to protect and provide has been relatively successful for human civilization imo. It seems like everyone knows this because they see it every day but no one wants to acknowledge it.
@@treacherousjslither6920 yeah but it only works if men are given absolute power and respect over women because it's a huge sacrifice of men's humanity. Not saying this is wrong or right but now it doesnt make sense at all to see yourself as a man to be disposable in any way. That thought alone disgusts me to my core. I think we either go along with working on getting rid of old social norms so that all men and women can decide how they want to live their lives without following a script, make an entirely new script that is fair for both sides or go back to our old gender roles.
@@treacherousjslither6920 successful in what way? and how does it compare to brainwashing people into accepting their oppression (e.g.: anti-union, pro-slavery, child labor, etc.)?
As a women in korea having to suffer the korean men on a daily basis i jumped at this video. Thanks for brining this to light!
What is so bad about them?
For context. I am man from germany and i am just curious.
@@voidwalker7774 They're very misogynist and right-wing lol. It's the result of decades of capitalism and corporate consolidation.
@@voidwalker7774die Gacha Drama and Korean Gender Wars Videos von Moon Channel geben einen guten Einblick meiner Meinung nach
@@voidwalker7774 men are consistently killing their wives and gfs its in the news...sexual trafficking is so high women are never taken srsly and men are giving rape and death threats to the korean feminist speaking on it...I can suggest you an acc from a korean feminist activist who daily tells her experinces with evidence and proof if you want to see how extremely bad it is
I'm a dad and husband. I bust my ass to be a provider, my body has been driven to extreme levels of exhaustion playing and carrying my daughter, doing things around the house, going to work. I started going to the gym just so my back wouldn't break with how much time I spend with my toddler. When I get home from work I'm doing chores, I don't get a break until she's asleep.
The idea that there are men getting by expecting a woman to carry their child when they can't even decorate, clean or do laundry is infuriating. Almost all of my friends who have gotten married are divorced now and I always saw it coming a mile away when they have kids and the guy just wants to shut himself in the basement to play call of duty when he gets home.
SIR, I APPLAUD YOU. ❤❤❤❤❤ your wife is an extremely lucky woman.
@@susannehuber3996 She's really lucky cause our daughter is in our life and we love her but she's just as exhausted as I am most days b/c she's a stay at home mom, I can't really alleviate that at all. It's just crazy to me that people could treat having kids as some side quest when even if you put in the maximum effort you're going to end up in really miserable situations, or think it's fair if one person is way more tired. I was in a headspace when we were having kids that I was going to be tired and worn out all the time and that if I wasn't that meant I wasn't trying hard enough.
Like if a man really wants kids they gotta be projecting how ready they are to have their bodies absolutely wrecked carrying that kid for hours at a time and getting screamed at and dealing with hormonal changes and scary doctor's visits and all their money going to that kid. That's the bare minimum at this point.
then what is your wife doing?
@@aship-shippingshipshipsshippin Raising her for the 8 hrs im not there, cooking, cleaning, shopping for us,
@@capnbarky2682 you got really lucky. A lot women don’t want raise a home while the man is busting there ass. A lot women just want the man to work than use his money to go buy bags and luxury goods and sit around just because they can give you sex. My friends marriages also failed and it’s sad .I always tell them sex isn’t enough for a relationship. Love is work and no ones wants to put it in. They expect it to be easy but I just look at my parents and I’m like damn this shit is beautiful but difficult.
Finally a woman at the beginning who knows what she is talking about instead of that influencer on TikTok who tried speaking for all Korean women making 4B seem like just a very fringe joke with no relevance. If the international internet finds out about it (especially Western media), it has some relevance, even if we don't have all the prior context, we are capable of looking into the history of the movement.
If you think Western feminists think of 4B as a joke, you haven’t delved very deep into western feminists circles.
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If you know, you know.
Oh the media already knows about it, it just ain't carin'
I think that as a concept it can be quite liberating. Most women feel so much pressure to bear children and subject themselves to emotionally and physically unsafe experiences. I don’t identify as a woman but was raised as one, Even after having a child I felt almost doomed to being trapped with a man for years. The simple concept of 4B made me realize that I don’t have to engage with any of that if I choose not to. Something else could have been the catalyst but after experiencing romantic/sexual/relationship abuse I was terrified to think that I’d eventually be subjected to it against my will again.
You must admit it’s not sustainable on a large scale though. I suppose it doesn’t matter, regardless of what any of us do things will continue marching on. If you sit down and choose not to continue typically no one will try to make you get back up. That’s my experience, but with a woman maybe people feel more inclined to attempt to force you to keep going. It should be your choice to stop playing the game, I agree. If you want to join us guys who have given up, I welcome you.
@@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp I think for some the lack of sustainability is a motivator. Some people think of it as a boycott for improved support/safety measures. The metropolitan police in London are declaring gender violence as a major terrorist threat. We need that in the US. We also need major infrastructure to provide mothers support when/if they choose to have children.
Last I read over 60% of single mothers are in poverty and as currently stands the financial requirements for government assistance (which haven’t been adjusted in decades) are so low that you need to be close or experiencing homelessness to access them locking people into a violent cycle of poverty.
Thank you for the warm invitation. I’m happy to engage with anyone who will respectfully do the same. I don’t support gender separatists but I do understand why women feel the need to create safe spaces. Gender seems somewhat ambiguous to me at this time although I think I’m typically clocked as a gay woman, or effeminate man. Certainly preferring the latter but whatever.
Romantic relationships are the furthest thing I’m interested in pursuing. I’m applying for my doctorate in urban education and I’ll be intensely occupied for the next 6 or more years. In addition to raising my disabled first grader. Hopefully I’ll be able to step into a role that tenaciously supports families and children experiencing the things we have endured. :) 💖
4B movement is S. Korea isn't a surprise, realizing that in this country women are paid 30% less than men,ds and misogyny is something normal
wrong, it's just that koean women don't do hard labor job, they work less hour than men, and they don't really do any dangerous job, so they should get paid less, if someone works less hour than you, take less risk than you, do less labor intense job, that person should gets paid less than you
What's ds?
@@Neo-jty Google Controlling for a variable. This is a standard practice in the statistics you seem to be underestimating, since you believe to be smarter than them to not control for all the variables you're pointing at.
@@Bobogdan258 what is that has to do with google? you don't need to google to know that women are lazy in general, you don't need to google to know women work less hour than men worldwide, you don't need to google to know most women don't do hard labor jobs, you don't need to google to know most people who die in work are men, facts are facts, women deverse the payment they get
@@anju5124 a mistake, a wrote it fast
24:08 "If you're the type of person to believe that there are two genders I can't say I don't understand why. You're wrong, but I understand." Just wanted to say thank you for that, from a nonbinary person
XD
boy and a girl
theres only 2 genders but you can always pretend to be different XD
I just realized 4b movement is going to be easy for me as a lesbian. But I worry about the straight girls doing this. It's hard for them.
Doesn't bother me in least. Happily 4B.
good luck then, lesbian divorce rate and DV rate are highest, and gay couples have lowest divorce rate and DV rate, that tells you a lot about differences between men and women
Lesbian win
@@becnimi lesbians have highest divorce rate and DV rate btw
4B requires abstinence... that includes lesbianism. Also there is a lot of homophobia in the movement as presented.
This video made me feel so many things, especially at the end. Moving to Canada from Korea when I was 12, I always felt there was unfairness in the world. Moving to a “better” country from “worse” country made me constantly question the state of the global society, where the label like “first world” and “third world country” are normalized. I felt disgusted by this normalization of hierarchy of land and nation, and I would get extremely angry at the idea that S. Korea (and many other nations that are deem as “dirty”) are below the European and North American nations.
I also wonder about my life if my family hadn’t moved. I see the news and people’s talk about Korean society online and in person, and I feel this guilt for “escaping” the harsh realities in S. Korea, especially as someone who’s seen as a woman via larger society. “Why do I get to be here in Canada when they are suffering in their own land? How am I allowed to be Korean when I’m here, living free from Korean society’s constraints?” These thought got worse with the rise of anti-feminism in Korea.
Kim sooJa’s art at the end legit teared me up. It’s like I’m stuck between two society, not of difference in culture, but in difference of “progress” and “power”. I’m living and existing inbetween the world where one society is deemed as “better” than other, and it’s a constant push and pull, in a world that pretends that it’s just “a cultural difference” or that im going through ”identity crisis”. They say It’s me who is confused in two “cultures”, but I was never confused about myself; i was confused about the norm. Her arts are fascinating to me because they seem to express and describe complexity through simplicity.
I wanna write SO MUCH MORE but I’m running out of time rn. Thx for the video, and thx for the ending and again thx for seeing korea without orientalist gaze. I think ur one of the few creator that does so haha.
Sorry, I had a whole heart felt and meaningful response and I have no idea if it went through. But the tldr was this: please find a way to write more. I'd like to read it when you do.
I'm not Korean but as someone who moved from Zimbabwe to Enlgand at 5 - the same country that colonised us. I've had the same guilt? I don't know if that's the word but It feels like survivors guilt to me. But the hiearchy you mentioned pisses me off too. I have to screenshot this post.
at first I thought the women who don’t wanna date men would just date other women instead.. til I heard the homophobic part of the story 😔
It's comical that men just automatically think about schmeggs and who will women "be with.". Sure some women will, but for the most part, women are just done with romance and intimate relationships in general. It's about freedom,not sehx.
But why would the assumption be that they “date other women instead”?
Why can’t they just be free of all forms of romantic relationships if they so please?
Romance is practically a patriarchal construction. Lesbian relationships themselves last shorter than gay ones, women can handle "being single" while men shrivel to dust if they're not a parasite to someone.
@@vanillavania. Cuz they focus on sex too much. It’s mostly straight women, but also male attracted bi women who are choosing not to date men. I not sure why think straight women can magically turn bi or gay just cuz they don’t want to date men when it doesn’t work like that. At the end of the day they are still straight, and aren’t going to be attracted to women.
@@vanillavania.because women naturally tend to default to other women when they have failed to keep the men they want
"Political lesbians" were a thing during 2nd wave feminism, but "born this way" ideology conflicted too much-- the idea that you *could* choose to be gay conflicted with the framework of how marriage was being fought for as a birthright-- so "feminism turning people into lesbians" isn't a new thing and it's nothing to be afraid of either.
I always took political lesbians as lesbians period but feminism made them feel comfortable coming out
Weren't political lesbians just....roommates for socio-economic purposes to detangle from men?
@@lordtette Well, some of them certainly were gay or bi. But you can't discount the people calling themselves lesbians while actually being entirely celibate and not interested in any romantic relationships with women, that was a real thing. You can swear off sex and relationships without appropriating the spaces and experiences of lesbians. If you read some of the political lesbian writings, they're... clearly not gay in any capacity. Political lesbianism was ultimately about saying _no_ to men, not saying _yes_ to women, and we've already got a word for that
You will probably forever be my fav essayist because every time I think I know where you're going with a subject, you do so much more. I often leave your vids feeling embarrassed and a little ashamed that I hadn't considered the aspects you described, but I think that's a good thing 😊
Not me finishing the video in 30 minutes because I watched it on 2x speed.
On a serious note, this is a good video. As a middle eastern woman who now lives in the US, I really sympathize with the 4B portion of the broader Korean feminist movement. I think even if most women do not participate in it, having it be somewhat prevalent is enough to recontexualize the role of women in the eyes of most people. It will help push the notion that women are under no obligation at all to settle for less than what they want out of life or family. That for a society to convince women to have kids and create families, it has to relent to their demands for complete equality and equal respect.
And also just like with any movement that finds a footing online, people who are part of this movement or who support it need to make sure to push back against any reactionary harmful prejudices that try to take root in it. LGBT+ support and rights are important, and proponents of LGBT+ rights and women's rights have been in many cases the same people or great allies to one another. This allyship is what we need more of.
Hold on from where in middle east? All you talked about is hated in middle east
@@MuhammadAlkomy Not all people from/in west asia think the same, you know
@@niamhleeson3522 I am from that 'West Asia 'and you can count on your hands the number of people that tend to belive in that stuff
I don't think a movement like 4B can exist without transphobia. For such a movement to work, you need to believe in gender essentialism. Not a single aspect of 4B is interested in systematic change, it's only interested in gender/culture war with men as individuals and men as a collective "species." Not a serious movement. I think the portion of Korean feminism that is NOT 4B is doing much better, and I think it's possible to make those spaces less transphobic without diluting the message. I think it's time westerners stop giving 4B the attention it does not deserve. There are far more respectable and practical movements going on and I think it really shows just how terrible western media is because they don't cover those movements, rather they would cover what gets sensationalist clicks: "Koreans as an ethnicity are dying because of these feminists, click for more!" Online trend-based feminism is increasingly getting detached from actual activism-based feminism day by day, and I feel sad so many people are getting their education of feminism from tiktok, twitter and tumblr instead of taking a real gender studies course or reading Bell Hooks or whatever.
@@MuhammadAlkomythats just not true, the people like me who believe these things dont just go around blabbing about it to random people... I have family members who are Igbt and obviously I keep their secret but its not safe to talk about these things openly. Also, everytime someone talks about these things they are accused of being a fake arab or a westernized 🙄
Its so telling that men can't handle the idea that a lot of them can only deal with mainly one emotion anger.
Most men are incapable of empathy and human emotions. Trust me, I'm a man. I'm just lucky to be raised by my mother.
Yup! Patriarchal hierarchies and depend on training men to be as out of touch with themselves and those around them as possible 😢 They are encouraged to, _literally,_ DEhumanize themselves
@@TreeHairedGingerAle I'm not so sure about all that, just that most homes kids aren't learning how to deal with their emotions
@@Sarah-with-an-Hwhy do you think that?
@@kertchu because males are raised to be stoic and man up. Honestly though both genders have been lied to through how most of us where raised
I've been interested about going deeper with the 4B movement, I already found out there's a small but growing movement inspired on 4B Korean movement here in Brazil... And tbh I think 4B is applicable here, I really hope Brazilian 4B will become a prominent movement here in the next few years
As I write this comment, we are dealing with threats from far-right Christian fundamentalist politicians trying to end with the few reproductive rights we have... They literally want to punish LITERAL CHILDREN interrupting pregnancies after getting abused, and getting harsher punishments for it than their adult abusers for abusing them... Yes, you read that right
It's so godawfully frustrating, thankfully this enraged most of the population and it seems they are about to give up on continuing with that bill to make abortion a crime in all instances
Speaking from America here, I straight up think there'd be merit to women (if they felt inclined, their choice obvs) adopting similar ideas here.
Is this the woman equivalent of mgtow, and on a more extreme end the incel movement/phenomenon?
@@FrankieWilliams-kx9gp Boiled down to it's basic premise maybe? Still, I'd argue the motivation is different, as is the way it's being handled. In my experience a lot of the MGTOW dudes, for the fact they were claiming they were divesting from women, couldn't let women go and would talk ENDLESSLY about how free they were from women, as if they were still not divesting and the perceived sleights against them from women still lived rent free in their heads, and since I know most dudes aren't catcalled, harassed, attacked, or SAed by women, I'm inclined to believe MGTOW and incel ideology stems primarily from misogyny, whereas women at least have more valid consideration for why they'd choose to keep away from men, and I think for most of them that's liberating rather than them staying up at night thinking about men and hoping they're hurt by their absence, and going onto forums to talk about how great being men free is, I think they just... live their lives.
Its nothing like mgtow. We have reasons. Mgtow is just hurt ego.
Class warfare and economic disparity is like a tree where the leaves and the roots actively try to kill each other instead of providing for each other.
Plants defo be fuckin eachother over on some long con type shit and motherfuckers wanna be like "oh nature is so noble" naw bro, that sunflower fuckin hates you
!!!
43:14 The woman vs the bear thing reminds me of the horror movie were a group of women are being hunted in the woods by a group of men hunting who tried to assault them. And as the guy said they're doing this cause there aren't any witnesses. They were away from the docks where people were fishing and it a little island
Where do I opt out of society
Mongolia
sleep in the nether in minecraft irl (ingame)
You "are" society. You carry society with you. Even if you were to start all over again in a desert island/continent, you replicate what you have.
@@broidkanymore-zc4lt "Screw you! -- I'm gonna go play Minecraft!"
You can't opt out per se, but you can minimize. Think about where in your life you interact with people and see what you can do to reduce that. You can change your job to one that doesn't deal with the public or coworkers much (if you can, I'd recommend one that involves a hazardous environment. Nothing keeps people away like "Danger. Radioactive."). You can step back from social media and internet forums etc. You can avoid the news and, more broadly, non-fiction and focus on other worlds. You can distance yourself from your friends and your family. There are also more... let's say violent... ways to do this, but I wouldn't recommend them.
My advice would be to take some time to really examine your life. Figure out where exactly the pain is coming from and taking the steps necessary to mitigate that. It is possible to live a meaningful life primarily through your work if you find purpose in that. Perhaps only having a few close friends or maybe just Ma and Pa. A common disease in the modern world is the tendency to think in terms of all or nothing. Very rarely is the solution to a problem to do all or nothing. Usually the way forward is to either pull back to something reasonable or bump something up a bit.
Thank you for reading my mini-essay. I hope I was able to provide some perspective.
"They decided to remove the terms "gender equality" and "sexual minority" from textbooks" tell me again miss JK, how queer liberation is actually about erasing women and not fighting the same goddamn patriarchy that oppresses us all. Tell me how the people who hate women's liberation actually love us queers. Go on, tell me
So are Zionists and Jehovah’s Witnesses my allies too just because they’ve been targeted by the right wing in the past? Nah. Trans activists colonized womanhood and gay rights the same way that Zionists colonized Palestine. The sooner women cut the cord the better.
So are Zionists and Jehovah’s Witnesses my allies too just because they’ve been targeted by the right wing in the past? Nah. Trans activists colonized womanhood and gay rights the same way that Zionists colonized Palestine. The sooner women cut the cord the better.
@@notnotlikeothergirlsis this a joke? Trans people are like 1% of the population and are heavily discriminated against in virtually every single country. They arent colonizing anything, they literally just want to not be discriminated against
Because at the end of the day, when you hold patriarchal values within your heart, no amount of abuse or repression will be scarier than a feminine man
Cuz lowkey she would have to admit that some men are capable of empathizing with women if she admitted that transwomen were women. These ppl who don't allow for intersectionality. They rely on believing that nobody else can understand their pain. Empathy will never be 1 to 1 accurate because it's a simulation not a transmission. But that doesn't mean you deny it completely
Loved the link between reproductive rights and gender-affirming care.
I just feel sad for the women in south korea who have to go through so much 💔 and women all over world
I'll tell you this as a women from a different asian country. Experiences of men, women, cis, trans all vary along with cultural context. It doesn't mean multiplicity can't exist under thr same umbrella. I think a lot of us, in an effort to distance ourselves from one aspect of a narrative also isolate ourselves from the movements that benefit us. Complexity should not be sacrificed for the sake of connectivity but one does need to attempt to bring both of those things to the movements we champion or things fall apart quickly just as the metoo movement did during the pandemic
Edited for abhorrent spellings.
Thank you for this moderate exploration of the 2B movement. A lot of my prior knowledge has largely been online articles from news coverage Asia or Korea broadly, but like most news, they tend to treat the subject from an "objective" distanced lens rather than discussing in depth the more personal aspects of it. My major in college (10 years ago now... wow) was Asian Studies and long before I realized I was a trans woman, I spent a lot of time in gender and women's studies classes, so I've been broadly interested in feminism in Korea, Japan (especially Japan), and China. Sadly, I remain pretty ignorant of other Asian feminist movements, like in Vietnam or Taiwan, for instance. There is a whole lot more to the story than the broad strokes you painted, but I think you summed up what I know and even more in a pretty time-efficient manner. Enough for me to recommend to friends, at least.
I think it's important to recognize that even Western feminism has had its historical and contemporary hiccups (to put it lightly) and its similarly essentialist phases as well. The suffragette movement had a huge problem with internal racism excluding black women especially, and prominent 2nd and 3rd wave feminists have also pushed extremely questionable anti-men sentiment, often splitting feminists into groups and excluding either queer women (thinking butch lesbians are a sort of "men-lite", obviously excluding trans women, and also trans men--who are still an essential part of the feminist movement, etc.).
The revenant was 9 years ago?!
Yes time flies, but 2 of those were under lockdown
Pikachu face.
Ikr, it felt like yesterday. Dude, we are getting old af
* Rapidly aging meme *
I learned today there was a Despicable Me PS2 game :(
just what i needed, got a long drive ahead of me. thanks elliot!! ❤
really enjoyed this video, thank you for all the hard work and research you put into it. also, the josh johnson clip was a pleasant surprise 😆
Oh shoot, I have a 6 hour drive coming up, thanks for reminding me to save this and listen to it tomorrow instead ✌️
@Emiliapocalypse oh man! good luck 6 hours is crazy long 😳
1 view in 1 minute… can’t believe you’ve fallen off on such a highly anticipated video 🧘🏽♀️
If I were a woman, I'd pick the bear too.
A hairy gay guy with a hefty physique sounds totally friendly.
Vids like this are why I subscribed. So what if you’re the ‘nuance guy’ , I’m here for it! I loved the call to action at the end too, very inspiring. I’m gonna be thinking about that one…
grew up playing sports. remember how guys used to talk about their girlfriends in the locker room. this movement surprises me, not at all.
What would they say?
I really support the South Korean women with the 4B movement. They really have it hard!
Their men are so loved and cherished that even when a man has no job, it is still expected for the women to provide, do 100% the household and child care whilst also looking after all elderly in the family!
In South Korea, I heard that everyone wants a son and daughter in-law. But no ones wants a daughter. Its so heart breaking and I understand why South Korean woman have just walked completely away.
They are not being listened to, heard or understood so they all have said, if you're going to be a brick wall when it comes to our issues, we will treat you as such. They have walked away from a table where their men refuse to hear and understand them.
This has now echoed to the west because after hearing the Korean womens reasons, we resonated with their plight and stand with them.
Why? Here in the west, women are expected to work similar hours to similar work as men yet when women come home and all the housework and child rearing is still a woman's responsibility. If a woman speaks out about it, she is minimized, devalued, dismissed and all her labour is seen as irrelevant compared to a mans. Whilst this happens, women in the west get the marriage penality and even more penality when they have a child(ren) in the workplace and in society. Some women are refused a mortgage on their own in child-bearing age because of this!
This is why the western women are taking on 4B. If we are not being listened to, why are we bothering being at a table who is hell bent on misunderstanding us? So, we logically walked away.
These are not the other factors in play. Its the terrible economy, threat of world war III, nuclear war threats and seeing how difficult it is for us to even have our own homes whilst in good jobs.
I say, if it is difficult for me in an excellent job with good pay. How is it going to be for my unborn children in 20 years time?
I'd rather protect my unborn children from that suffering bcause we all know how society shames women for having children (even if married to a man) when they cannot afford to house and feeds themselves, let alone a child. We're classed irresponsible.
Now women are not having kids to be responsible, we're to blame for the falling birth rates.
Society can piss off with its double-bind. Let it die. All societies collapse eventually and its always because a few people refuse to be fair.
They can no longer have it both ways. The ball is now in the court of those who hold power.
Change or die out.
May South Korean women win their rights to equality! ❤
interview with Hawon was so insightful. thank you for your video, much to think about🙆♀️
Avoid men, get educated, make money, take down politicians with said money, get cat 🎉💅
Thanks for covering this Elliot. I have been very interested in the 4b movement for a while now, but it's hard to find information that isn't biased to the western point of view. As a feminist it's very important to me to see feminism in its many forms around the word and to understand the unique and universal struggles that women have. To me celibacy and anti-marriage movements have been an integral part of many feminist movements around the world, but they are difficult because they often can fall into the moral or cis-centered discorce that will ultimately derail the movement. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in S Korea.
This was such this was such a good essay. Showing the intersectionality and connection between so many struggles. I especially loved the call to action at the end to truly connect and see the humanity in each other. There's so much truth to the idea that no one is free until we all are.
I was honestly feeling helpless with some of the recent SCOTUS decisions regarding criminalizing homelessness and rolling back federal consumer protectionss, as well as NYC and LA floating potential mask bans. Your essay just knocked some sense into me. Just knowing people do care and want a better world. I needed the reminder.
Pros & cons: This is a really well thought-out, comprehensive look at some of the larger themes that turned 4B into a trend as well as a nice info dump on Korean history that most of us educated in the ethnocentric west would never know. You also included thought-provoking critique of the resistance to intersectionality in various movements against oppression. That being said, I do have one criticism, and that is the obfuscation of the very justified and valid reasons that straight women all over the world, whether they call themselves "4B" or not, ARE in fact opting out of becoming intimately involved and/or partnering with men. There is a boatload of data about how women's health, incomes, and overall quality of life spirals straight into hell when they are stuck in cis-het partnerships with men-- along with corresponding data about how men overwhelmingly benefit from these same partnerships due to having their entire lives supported by women's free labor. The reason for the gender divide and why it has reached a tipping point is because capitalism and patriarchy (two sides of the same evil hand) have now revealed for decades that women's interests and men's interests are directly at odds with one another. Women want to protect their safety, peace, autonomy, financial security, and overall health at all costs, which necessitates opting out of being with men. Men on the other hand are interested in dominating, controlling, subjugating, and preserving the existing system to their benefit at the exclusion of women's overall happiness and wellbeing-- and worse, if they can't get it, they seek to destroy, torture, punish, and make women suffer. This is the definition of "irreconcilable differences" and @Elliot Sang, it deserves its own follow-up video. Thanks for reading!
I understand where you at getting at, but at the same time I can't see how the movement can be emancipatory at it's fullest when the outing of heterosexual relationships in itself only appear substantial in an individual level but doesn't approach more systemic issues. i'm not heterosexual, I'm bi and I don't engage anymore in relationships with heteros. The reasons are many: usually heteros are narrow minded, discriminatory, oblivious. I'm mentally ill, bipolar type 2, I don't usually date neurotypicals. The same reasons. I don't find these type of acts revolutionary or useful as the only political mediums towards real and radical emancipation, real autonomy or revolution. I think that the most effective times I had politically where in the revolt of 2019 in my country (Chile). I got united with a diverse cast of people: feminists, anarchists, communists, non-affiliated, the educated, the non-educated, the politically engaged and the recently inserted in the middle of a Mad Max movie. The realization that I had is that when people got that we aren't essentially different we have pretty similar goals. It would sorprise you the quantity of men, even hetero men, that wants safety, peace, autonomy, financial security and overall health at all costs. (TA warning) You even be surprised how many men had been SA. That poor, mentally ill, non-hetero, AMAB aren't that different from a non-hetero, afab, mentally ill, poor woman. Men when demonstrate emotions besides anger are seen as childish, and if they're mentally ill is worse. Similarly as women that are mentally ill that are seen as nagging, hysterics. The mentally ill are seen as childs, and in these times children are seen as property and less than human. A friend that I met in a psych ward, who has bipolar type 1, was cancelled because in a football match in a university was manic and talking to a girl; even if he didn't say nothing aggresive it was deemed violent. A student in his career told me of this event, talking against him. That's the account of events: he was being loud, was taken as aggressive. I regret not defending him in that times, I wish I could apologize. Being manic and that type of loudness, the erratic behavior, isn't something you can't control. Controlling that is like expecting that a person with narcolepsy won't get sleepy. Is really frustrating.
Perhaps is my perception but sometimes in the discourse of white feminists is a patent ableist tendency where autistic, bpd, npd, bipolar non-afab are pathologized. Not in the same gravity as in the XIX where women where treated as histerical, but is a similar critique that I have of the typical old marxist/anarquist that view women in the movement as a distraction towards proletarian revolution.
@@Farencio I feel similarly. Tbh, the feminism that was popular here (central Europe) in my youth, was very much what today is sometimes called "white feminism". Its aim was to get more women to have successful careers in big companies. I'm neurodivergent and disabled, it didn't speak to me. Once I learned about intersectional feminism, that was when I started to get more interested and involved.
I happen to be aromantic asexual, so I'm not interested in dating anyway, but yeah. That's not political in my case. I hope people find the personal connections that are safe and fulfilling for themselves, how and wherever they find them.
While I agree with you that men are the underlying cause of most undue harm to women and your analysis of driving forces (such as how 'safety' is a much more important consideration for women), I do think that this way of thinking does not entirely take into account intersectional aspects.
If a white woman wants safety by exiling all black men, is that at odds with men's desire to preserve power structures?
If a western woman wishes to ensure her financial security by preserving financial slavery in other countries, is that taking a stance against men's financial hold over women?
I think it's important to acknowledge that while men are ultimately the ones in power and responsible for most of the ills, the patriarchy is upheld by dividing and pitting against each other anyone who could threaten the status quo. Your arguments that men seek to destroy, torture, and make women suffer may be true, but one must be vigilant lest one falls too close to the thinking of Browbmiller of Firestone: that black men, given that male supremacy is beyond their reach, must resort to sexual violence - as discussed by Davis in "Women, Race, and Class". Of course, both Wallace ("Black Macho[...]") and bell hooks ("Ain't I a woman") have analysed the patriarchal sexism in the black liberation movement, and similarly the racism in the women's liberation movement - making it clear that men, no matter their position in society, do attempt to establish and uphold patriarchal structures, so...
As an aside, I'm curious about the boatload of evidence suggesting being married is actively detrimental to (women's) health and well-being. I don't doubt it, given that (as an example) spend between 60-100% more time on childcare per day (American Time Use Survey, 2023), but from what I've read people in romantic relationships generally report higher well-being than their single counterparts (Lee and Ono, 2007, "Marriage, Cohabitation, and Happiness: A Cross-National Analysis of 27 Countries"; Davern et al, General Social Survey 1972-2024).
I started participating in this months ago, and I feel so free from the stres of relationships. It's going great and my friends are so supportive!
The funny thing is that if men were to create their own 4b movement, we'd be fine with their decision. We'd be concerened for them, not mad. We can live without being with them, it's literally not that hard. We have very nuanced and deep friendships across multiple cultures, we're good.
You mean MGTOW hahaha
@@alexanderleuchte5132 yeah idk women were and still are pretty famously pissed about them
@lou-cidmire3065 yeah, mostly when they come to act all misogynistic. If they're going their own way then they should stay on their lane instead of coming to us to sow hate.
@@lou-cidmire3065 Instead of laughing about the funny acronym to begin with. A lot of what i have seen being memed there is some hilarious coping going on but i have no actual knowledge about them
Men are incapable of removing themselves from women without putting women down. This is because the men who typically "go their own way" are usually horrible partners who are mad no woman with any sense wants to be with them. It's why mgtow died down and redpill became more popular. Been watching these idiots since 2015
Loved the nuance and loved the cutting through it. Loved it all. I'm walking away from this feeling more responsible for my gaze through the frames of all my identities and also feeling more connected to my humanity than any other identity. Thank you for moving me with your art and the way you frame other people's art. So much respect and love.
A lot of people in Korea point out how the major voices of feminism in Korea are "transphobic", "fight fire with fire mentality", or (sometimes) "far right". Even the women. I think that's why even though feminism caught a lot of traction in the beginning because it was needed due to "hidden camera" issues, it ended up breaking apart after covid... It was mostly fueled by knee-jerk reactions and less based on enough thoughtful discourse and open-mindedness.
hey, if you're going to make such a point about saying that this is a "trend vs. movement" then you should really provide definitions, social movement theory is very alive and well and there are plenty of definitions to draw from- or you can make your own if you want to
on the man vs bear thing, just remember to consider the ratio of encounters to incidents
A fellow Josh Johnson enjoyer! Nice to see him make an appearance
This video was well done. I’m glad you got an expert to talk about the situation and put so much research into it.
대박. Brilliant work, Elliot - it's very cool that you got to chat with Hawon Jung about this.
I’ve been really curious about this. I wanted hear more about Korean feminists perspective on the topic, Hawon’s insight helped to contextualize how the 4B movement fits into Korea’s larger feminist movement.
I love the term “misandry” they act like misogyny and misandry are comparable at all lmao.
ngl most of the time 'misandry' is just misogyny that is directed towards men
@@poetrait941 you know what the definition of misandry is?
Love it when people underestimate sexism against men😊
I think comparing them is hard in general,,
So misandry is an acceptable hatred?
closing statements hit so hard, Elliot! 👏 And i love Kimsooja's work you showed, so thank you for showing it to us!
Congrats, Eliott, this was a wonderful video essay, and you bundled up the end beautifully. Bravo.
North Korea's birthrate is currently at 1.81, higher than that of the US which is 1.66, and declining much more slowly than South Korea's which is currently at 0.81. Damn.
Wait where did you get that info? Since most news coming from that country are hard to know if they are even real
@@why7654 The data I found was from World Bank Group. I'm not sure exactly how they get their data on North Korea.
"women need men for protection" i can't take you seriously.
Elliot, I really feel like this is one of your best videos. Thank you for your incredible work. Your interview with Hawon Jung was fabulous, and the end segment hit me hard as fuck. Let’s hold onto that last thread of cutting through (but not denying) the nuance to see the broader common human struggles moving forward…I think it’s really important for all of us. I love what you do ❤️
Yay new Elliot video!!
Ayyy, lets go! I'm excited for your takes :)
As a korean who currently resides there thank you for the video. My korean abilities are really bad because of living outside the country my entire childhood but I’ve always wanted to connect with more leftist sources here.
It’s funny because you’d get attacked for being feminist more than for being a communist so finding feminism that wasn’t TERF-y was difficult. I’ll be sure to check out Jung Hawon and her works.
I’ve watched what my aunts and mother go through and what my little sister go through. I’ve heard the way Korean men talk about women when there are no women around and the way they think they’re so biologically superior. It’s no wonder to me why 4B exists or the women who do similarly worth out any purposeful political reason.
Also, SONIC THE HEDGEHOG???
Been looking forward to this ✨️
The idea of 2019 being a long time ago is making me feel the oldest I have ever felt
Huh I’m doing 4b and didn’t even know it. I’m celibate over a decade and I’m a single woman near 40.
This video was excellent, thank you very much for exploration of the complexity but also the presentation of, as you said, "cutting through it". There's a lot to be said about any one of these concepts, like for most good topics.
Oh boy! Finally a good one hour lengthy essay to program to!
We neeeed material analysis to appropriately determine why certain societal outcomes happen. Our ruling classes and governments don’t want us to know, and they’d really rather we argue with each other endlessly, but it’s becoming too hard to ignore nowadays.
thank you for covering this elliot ❤
"I can't breeeed!"
Men
😂😂😂😂😂😂
The inability to pass on one's genes is tragic.
Trust, we'll be just fine breeding each other.
Great video. Well writtwn, presented and researched. Thanks for highlighting thesebissues and talking about them in such a thoughtful way.
The MGTOW movement: 😬
The 4B movement: 😬
I swear, between you, Moon Channel, and other essayists sure to follow you in my feed, I'm going to accidentally wake up one day feeling like I deeply understand the cultural tensions, reactions and criticisms underlying K-Pop.
Cut to the clip of Psy on the toilet, Clarence. ;)
As someone with cptsd I do find it funny I trust an animal like a dog that has sharp teeth than can break my bones and tear my flesh yet I feel more safer with them and trust them than humans, mainly men.
🍪?
As usual, you are awesome and do wonderful and interesting research!!
I have been creeping your channel for a hot minute and this video had me hit subscribe so fast. What a wonderful nuanced discussion from a man no less. You are doing great work. I’m embarrassed I didn’t subscribe sooner. 🤣
great essay! loved all your insights, but the mention of the fear of nature being rooted in colonialism was particularly nice to hear ( ◜‿◝ )♡
OMG you talked to hawon jung ! i read her book last year this is so cool !
just finished but my god this was really good, i love how you gave a breakdown of why korea is that way because that truly shows us how women in korea navigate life . also shout out you for this in depth video essay! this is definitely one of my favorites from you
Preordered the first time you mentioned it. I've shared the previous two books with 12 year olds at school, they've loved it, I've loved them as summer reading. They are adorable silly witty fun. Can't wait for this one.
Just finished watching. This is an incredible video! You and your team did a fantastic job! 🔥Side note: I felt seen when you said that some people hold on to dogmatic beliefs for a sense of stability and certainty. I was born and raised in Puerto Rico and I feel that some don't want to change the status quo because of the uncertainty it brings. I know this video is about South Korea but I couldn't help but think about where I grew up. Again, great video!
I am seriously unable to keep up with degrees of observation *this high*. Society is too complex for me, I'll be in some forest planting fruit trees, let me know once these nasty "gender" and "patriarchy" things are abolished 😄
Planting fruit trees sounds good 👍
set some aside for me when they get ripe, i love me some fruits
Fruit actually wants to be eaten so I feel less bad.
This was amazing! What a feat of scholarship and thoughtfulness and care for others. Thank you for creating this, Elliot.
Thank you Elliot, I was so excited for this video! I highly recommend the book The Vegetarian by Han Kang to anyone interested in learning more about sexism in Korea. It goes much deeper and made a much bigger impact on me than Kim Ji Young born 1982.
Also I was initially surprised that a friend of mine - an academic in Korea who writes about social issues - had never heard of the 4B movement. Thank you for helping explain why it’s more complex (and problematic) than how westerners have painted it.
The man vs bear choice is really insignificant when you remember bear spray works on everyone!
the more I hear about this movement, the more I realize it is functionally the same as MGTOW
like it's a reaction against oppressive societal norms and population level pathologies with roots in colonialism, capitalism, and contemporary gender dynamics
Except that 4B is actually productive and healthy for women, where MGTOW are a bunch of dudes who don't ever actually "go their own way," they just whine about women should look after their every need like the giant toddlers they are. Oh, and occasionally do crime sprees. No 4B woman has ever sprayed a mall with lead.
"Oh so it's WGTOW" was my immediate thought when I first heard of it
But men have always gone their own way. Patriarchy is everywhere MGTOW sounds lilke misogynistic men getting upset that women are fighting for their rights.
@@lukacvitkovic8550 it really is the same. which honestly is interesting because we can see how the media and social trends favor WGTOW over MGTOW.
man or bear, huh? if its a man i know and trust to not do bad stuff to me, then im picking him
otherwise its a coinflip
Meanwhile as a man, better to avoid all women, they will tear you apart for a penny, a men would only do so for survival. They say they want equality, but demand we treat them like royalty.
@@nineonine9082 Go right on ahead. As a woman it fills me with glee to hear a man say he wants to avoid us all. If only you guys could actually leave us alone like you say.
@@piroshk1968 Just keep looking after the cats, I know how you must add to your fine collection, I do love the critters.
@@nineonine9082 Damn, you had to make up an assumption to insult because you didn't have a real rebuttal. Nice.
@@piroshk1968 Don't worry, a lot of us do
Tbh I avoid men as much as I avoid woman, that's what social anxiety does
The less people I see, the better I am and I'm not the only one in that case
This is a great video. Subscribed.
This was such a great listen. I’ve learned so much and definitely want to read Flowers of Fire
3 views in one minute 😭 the fall from the graces of the algorithm 😔 devastating
lmao is this some sort of meme ive missed out on
@@elliotsangestevez How the hell did you miss out on it?
@@elliotsangestevezyes, everytime a youtuber posts a video now instead of people rushing to say first they rush to sau "wow only 3 views? bro fell off"
@@botanicalitus4194 fr "bro fell off" is the new "first"
@@botanicalitus4194pyrocynical fanbase moment
There are some visual glitches right around 1 hour in btw
Very good video!
Great video!! 🎉🎉
this is your best video yet
havent watched the video yet cos it was uploaded like 5 minutes ago but im hoping theres a bell hooks mention
Why?
@@nm9688feminism is for everybody probably
i love bell hooks but can we stop constantly using her books and essays in feminist discourse
@@chroma._.5986But why?
@@franklinhuang she reminds modern rad fems how they're failing at, atleast her form of feminism
As a trans man, whos lived my life as women.. i think its very differently in there country then America, im glad its happening for south korean women.. i hope things turn out..
i just closed my eyes for 5min lol i didnt realize i was supposed to open after you started talking about Bottari
5:04 and what would be so bad about that?? LMAO
I want to add a fact about comfort women. There were Korean collaborators of the Japanese who recruited, so that was another method of becoming one. The information given to them is debatable and can range quite a bit person to person, and the worst of what would/could become of you was likely never disclosed, but some Koreans really did run off, even from noble families, to become comfort women which really goes to show how much they hated their lives and how domineering the men in their life had been. Of course, this is just for some people and range of experiences varies a lot as you described.
is there a source for this? I just read a Korean person's article where her grandmother was married at 16 during japanese colonial era because her parents were afraid that she would be taken as "comfort woman" by japanese
@@april9242 I first learned of it back in one of my university courses focused on the region so forgive me for not remembering all the sources off hand. The easiest lead I can remember is probably one of the most vocal on the subjects, Sarah Soh, for horrible reasons. As in she would criticize survivors and look for any discrepancies to try and ruin these people. Her sources are valid and her journal works have all been peered reviewed, but it's what she does with that knowledge that's horrendous, but that's one trail that can easily lead to more direct sources. "The Comfort Women: Sexual Violence and Postcolonial Memory in Korea and Japan" does a decent analysis of the different ways people got involved even if I hate the framing of her work and the leap in her logic.
As an aside, some not so fun facts, is that the collaborators largely gained political and influential roles post WWII. The south Koreans also really didn't get to model the country how they wanted to post war. Also, Korea pleaded on an international scale for decades under occupation and no one cared until it came to post-war 'alliances'. Other countries were also subjected to 'comfort women' (I still hate the term but it's the most recognizable one) but do to location, bases, history, etc. Korea by far had the most (though I hate comparing because then people like to forget about the rest. Kind of like Ukraine is remembered under the USSR for Holodomor while Kazakhstan who had similar food capacity is ignored along with the rest of Central Asia.
@@april9242 Also want to add that if you do look in to it be prepared to find fighting about terminology and endless debates about victims vs agents, who seem more eager to prove and argue for a side then the nuance of humanity and what I would call a lack of true informed consent. They really do be out there arguing like because most were against their will meant no one found it desirable, and even if they loosely knew what they were getting into didn't mean they consented to what really happened or could really mentally process what happened (it was very systematic that completely destroyed many of their bodies). Sometime academics really isn't any better then people beefing it out online.
Good vid, love that jab on city too lol
I am in full support of this.
This is not related to this wonderfully made video, but I'm gonna start saying "USsian" from now on. Makes much more sense than "american" when they don't own any of the Americas (Continents btw) and cuz United States is the name they chose for themselves anyways. I'm not born in the US, but if they're American, I'm American too it's only fair
41:18 She just said "This is a stupid title" 😆