when the word narcissism started getting tossed around i was confused because werent people just talking about how mental health needed to be destigmatized and here they are talking about 'narcissists' like theyre some evil villian these people arent 'narcissists' sometimes they are just assholes
Sadly most people have too loose a grasp of science and psychology to hear about something like narcissism without applying it to every disagreeable person they meet. That being said, it's also pretty common in a way. All these things, if there's like even 2% of people out there with it, that's 2 in 100 people. So over a lifetime you're pretty likely to run into them in some capacity. If they have a condition which predisposes them to abusive behaviour then I think that's important to know and important for people to be warned about. I suffered for years with someone who I think would likely be so serious as to be diagnosable. Personally I'm fine with calling her a bad person. She understands morality enough. She can turn it on and off based on what she needs. In the abstract I'm definitely on the side of getting these people help. And yes the moral panic around it is bad for everyone. But the abuse is real and highly destructive. That can't be allowed to pass by because we're favouring the perpetrator over the victim. Some things can't really avoid a stigma if they're factually dangerous.
@@IshtarNikebut the stigma is keeping people from getting the help that they need. How is someone expected to get help when everyone around them is constantly talking about how psychologists have proven that they’re inherently dangerous evil villains? Getting rid of the stigma is getting them help. It’s not excusing abuse, it is acknowledging that npd is not a predisposition to being abusive and that a disorder does not cause abuse. A person causes abuse.
When people talk about mental health, they only ever mean anxiety and depression. SOMETIMES adhd will get an honorable mention. Extremely occasionally.
@@saltydinonuggies1841 People with NPD are diagnosed not because of the stigma, but because that they realize that none of their interpersonal relationships are working out and they lack self-awareness to understand why. The stigma comes after the diagnosis, when it’s revealed publicly and they’re ostracized for it. Personally, as someone who was narcissistically abused by my own roommate (this person has an NPD diagnosis and despite seeing 2 separate therapists for treatment, they still hurt me) and was mutilated in my sleep, as much as I want to understand them, my pain and suffering overwhelms any chance of doing so. I know people with covertly narcissistic traits who are too timid to abuse anyone, but because of my personal experiences, my empathy is limited. The most I can do is just pity that person and people like them because they grew up in an equally abusive household and it was just how they were taught to navigate life.
pro-tip: if you really want to differentiate between a vague concept of "narcissism" and NPD as a stigmatized personality disorger, then just say self-centered or egocentric! grab a thesaurus babes, its ok to just say someone who hurt you was being self-centered
Exactly. Or just an assh*ole (had to put the asterisk because when writing a comment saying the word sh*it got a "sure you want to post this comment? Maybe edit it" disclaimers 😒)
If they do the whole narcissist cycle, is it ok to call them a narcissist then? I got that cycle done to me 3 times by my ex till I caught on and dumped him.
Self-centered isn't enough to cover all the behaviors. There's future-faking, projection, gaslighting, absolute lack of empathy, manipulation and hoovering. Also the consistency and intensity of the behaviors just aren't there in the word "self-centered". You can just use the fitting term: narcissism.
Words like self-centered, selfish, abusive, cruel, sadistic, unempathetic, antagonistic, hostile - those are all sufficient to describe choices and behaviours without labelling anyone. We DO need to understand abuse and how it it's perpetrated, creating some kind of Big Bad isn't part of that
but this is unscientiffic - there are people who may engage in sometime-assholeary and then there is the SC*M who completely has no empathy and fcks up people for own gain. This is a cruical difference which is important to make in order to deal with them accordingly. it is dangerous to relativize it just because people may overuse the term and draw conclusions way to short..
as someone with a lot of npd traits who is constantly told i'm doomed to be irredeemably evil no matter how hard i work to keep them in check, thank you.
Who is telling you this? It’s not uncommon for actually disordered people to project their traits onto us. If you are actively working on these “traits” you were told you have, you might not be a narcissist if you actually care to try. I was raised around many personality disordered people. They do not care to change, even a little, unless they want something from you. Always consider the source before you accept someone claiming you are something evil.
We're not evil, and we can do better. I started to get better when I found even One good support who stuck by me while also telling me when I was being a shit. It can be done. I promise. You're not doomed, and you're not evil. Be safe out there.
@@saturdayschild8535 Why try to frame this as if the only people demonizing stigmatized personality traits/behaviors are inevitably the "actual" ones with said behavior? Just because your were hurt by dysfunctional people doesn't mean that they were "disordered" in the sense that op is, or that they were clinically disordered at all. It's an uncomfortable truth, but completely "normal", empathetic people do horrific shit every day, including spout bigotry and beat down on the mentally ill. Which is what "personality disordered people" are. Cluster b disorders are more than likely trauma-born disorders, manifestations of C-ptsd. A lot of academics have been leaning towards this idea for a while. The people who meet the criteria for these conditions have almost always been abused and/or exposed to a continuously hostile environment. I know when emotions we've been really hurt it can feel good and even safe to rely on a scapegoat. If certain behaviors are the result of people being "disordered", then you just have to avoid those wrong people and everything will be fine. This kind of thought process only leads to people getting hurt, and even more people not getting the help they need to heal. Instead of assuming that op couldn't possibly be like what they say they are, maybe consider that your conception of narcissists is narrow, informed only by personal anecdotes, and could use some fresh perspective. I'd lurk around the npd subreddit and other spaces used by and for people with NPD. Take in their experiences, see the diverse spectrum of people with this condition and what it's like to live in their shoes. You might find they're more like you than you think. We are all only human.
@@ItsAllNunyathat’s the thing about the term being thrown around so casually and sometimes it seems, used as an excuse to detach from anyone and everyone who causes the slightest inconvenience. In that kind of environment no one gets support and everyone is devalued, which are the very things that cause the disorder in the first place. In addition, people with the disorder themselves might feel more empowered to project onto others and excuse themselves from accountability. Obviously people need to be informed about what abuse looks like and know that they shouldn’t have to put up with it, but in general, we as a society need more understanding and stronger communities, and I feel that this trend has mainly had the opposite effect.
methinks that one of the other side effects of pairing a specific pathology with abuse ala "narcissistic abuse" is that it keeps people from recognizing abusive tendencies within themselves. you are not immune to becoming an abuser, but that is not a death sentence. othering abusive behaviors as something you couldn't possibly do because you don't share the pathology is legitimately harmful
That’s exactly it. It’s easier to dehumanize people who you view as irredeemable than to acknowledge that you share your humanity with them and are capable of doing things just as awful.
I think genuinely for a lot of people they're just doing it as a trauma response, black and white thinking. The need to try and establish some irrefutable objective categorisation system that validates your feelings of being hurt and condemns the person who hurt you in such a way that there can be no doubt cast about the roles you both played and who was the victim, it's an understandable way to react to a history of being gaslit, ignored, dismissed, and invalidated in a thousand different ways, specifically intended to confuse and overwhelm you so that you would be unable to effectively fight back. Being very harsh and black and white is a misguided attempt to set boundaries while still playing by the rules set by your abuser, and while it's a relatively natural and understandable response, it is not a healthy one. Traumatised people trying to help other traumatised people before they help themselves just leads to worse outcomes for everybody, because you can't teach someone how to be healthy if you yourself still don't know. It's a stage of healing that I think people do need to go through, but when they share it publicly and build communities around it they can easily get stuck there and cease making progress.
Pathologizing abuse not only stigmatizes mental illness and personality disorders, it makes people think "well, I'M not mental ill, i could never abuse someone!" This is coming from someone who was horrifically emotionally, physically, and on a few occasions, borderline sexually abused by their mother, who has a diagnosed personality disorder and is autistic. Guess what? I have the same personality disorder she has, and i might also be autistic. I make the choice not to harm those close to me. Abusing others is a choice, not a personality trait. And people who abuse and never admit it aren't necessarily incapable of self reflection. Humans just hate admitting we're wrong.
ahem EXACTLY It's the same old tired tropes of villainizing the "other" to prop oneself up, as saying that they're "better" or even "special" when really neurotypical people can be horrible people too. Humans are humans and someone humans are horrible people, no pathologizing needed
I’ve literally seen people say that mentally ill people don’t harm others, people with personality disorders harm others. Like, way to both demonize personality disorders and completely ignore the fact that some people lash out as a result of their own pain.
@@larad9180 and like neurodivergent folks are more likely to BE victims of abuse then be perpetrators of it. Now yes neurodivergent folks are humans like everyone else and anyone who happens to be neurodivergent who does f*ucked up things should be held accountable for their actions however demonizing whole communities is definitely not the way to go. It's just another form of stigma as well as respectability politics
Hey remember a decade ago when people armchaired autism and treated neurodivergent people as inhuman because of the idea that they had "reduced or lack of empathy"? Anyways. This comment section is gonna be a fascinating artifact to look at in 2034.
It tends to be the same shit. Especially with other Neurodivergent folks demonizing folks with NPD or even other Cluster B disorders basically forms a hierarchy of the "good" and "bad" kind of neurodivergent
Fascinating because people are now waking up to narcissists and in 10 years it’ll be taught about in schools so people don’t get suckered into being with narcs anymore 🫡🇺🇸🇬🇧
Logigal Falkacy! No comparrison to autism and NPD. Clinical NPD is the uncontrollable addiction to being emotionally abusive to those closest to them. Intellectuslly and morally dishonest to relativise being EXTREMELY EMOTIONSLLY ABUSIVE where it is pathological and harms the mental health of loved ones often causing COTSD not unlike domestic violence victims. Clinical experts have studied NPD individuals for decades, so false analogy to “armchair diagnoses” or misdiagnosis of Autism.
Shout it out for the people in the back: people with personality disorders are struggling too. There’s no such thing as a perfect victim or villain. You don’t need to be a narcissist to abuse someone and not all narcissists are abusers. Abuse is abuse. Struggle is struggle.
@@ciaraskeleton Agreed! People often forget that society itself plays a role in abuse, like in the past when being a controlling husband was normalized. Not all of those people could've had a disorder. Hell, what's considered a disorder is also dependent on what a society thinks is normal- even the DSM5 has certain societal exceptions that disqualify someone from having that disorder.
What I'd really like to see in everyday speech is describing people as manipulative, as bullies, as abusive, as *doing specific things wrong* that *anyone might do regardless of mental health.* Is my mom a narcissist? That's hard to say. Did my mom do something manipulative? That's much easier to evaluate and gives you more practical information tbh.
In cases of singular events, this is fine, but when it's concerning a lengthy relationship, like spouse or parent, the word narcissistic is really valuable, descriptively speaking.
@@Daiwie44Not really? Why are y'all so insistent on being able to use a real disorder that many trauma survivors struggle with as a pejorative? Do their experiences matter less than yours? The sheer entitlement and lack of care on display here is staggering.
@@CrystalBulgerPlease refrain from commenting unless you have something constructive to say. This kind of targeted emotional attack speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.
@@juliagoetia lol yall dont seem to understand that itd be only few of ppl with ndp would get diagnosed bcz their ego would be hurt. Yall dont understand the pain of having a narcissist in your life.
One thing that's perhaps important to clarify, is that an NPD diagnosis (just like all other personality diagnoses) isn't just about checking those nine boxes in the DSM. First of all, once your actual evaluation gets started, there's a whole lot more boxes to check, but more importantly: the purpose of a diagnosis is to help patients cope with and possibly alleviate difficulties and suffering caused to them personally and/or to people around them. This is not just what makes the diagnosis functional; it's literally what the diagnosis is for. The diagnosis does effectively mean that NPD traits are considered undesireable, at least in a clinical sense, but that's not the same thing as categorizing someone as a "bad person." On the contrary, an NPD diagnosis helps us think of the patient as suffering the consequences of an adverse environment, among other things. If anything, this attempts to replace the overly simplistic idea that they're simply a "bad person." But I definitely agree that the dehumanizing pop psych gone haywire online is a problem.
Exactly this! I feel like I'm constantly clarifying to people what a diagnosis is in a clinical sense. People really overly equate them to a personality test rather than a tool to help treat people who are experiencing very real, difficulties that affect their ability to function.
The "average" person isn't a clinician so the chances for misinterpreting information to confirm their own bias is higher. I wonder if changing the language from "narcissist" which carries a negative connotation to something neutral might deter the "average" person from misinterpretation?
@@MPR2007watch the video? wut ur doing is quite literally what is trying to broken down. conflating "the abuser " with "the narcissist" is not helpful.
Ppl really be blaming people with personality disorders for everything wrong with the world like neurotypical people are incapable of being assholes. Sometimes people are just mean!!! And the reason isn't related to them being a "dark empath" or whatever, it's just them choosing to be mean
People with certain personality disorders are extra dangerous to be in positions of power because of their lack of empathy. They will sabotage someone to get what they want with no remorse. It's important to be on the lookout for this, because you can not treat them like you would other people.
Actually I would say that. I think being evil is itself a personality disorder. It is not normal almost definitionally, and it absolutely causes problems for the person and society at large, and that's how we have come to define mental illnesses. If you take that as a personal attack, that's your problem for being overly sensitive and picking up criticism of yourself where none was actually being given. And if you interpret this as saying "if you have a mental illness, you're evil" then you need to go back to school until you figure out basic logic, because all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
@@Nebukanezzer a disorder is a deviation from the norm.Most people aren’t perfect but the average person isn’t evil either.However,we are all capable of evil deeds and that extends to whole nations at a time.People can be made to have evil beliefs and therefore act evil.Does this mean they have disorders?Or is it just another way to utilise traits humans already have,even if unethically?Was something medically wrong with people who burned witches and had slaves?Those behaviours WERE the norm back then.So all those examples of evil are hard to classify as a disorder since then the very fragile state of being “good” hardly looks like the base of human nature
The worst part of this trend in my opinion is that it prevents actual diagnosed narcissists with mental health issues from seeking treatment and recovery. No one wants to be diagnosed with “bad person personality disorder,” and then once you are, you’re going to be subjected to unending discrimination and hostility on account of the stigmatized label. This in turn pushes the diagnosed narcissist back into cycles of self-hatred and insecurity, making it even more difficult for them to overcome their harmful narcissistic behaviors
Yeah I like to talk about that with people, the reason you have to forgive (not forget but forgive- to accept what happened and move on) is because you will become their trap and prevent them from growing. Same thing with unconditional love: uncondictional love isn't letting them do whatever they please. At a point leaving is loving because it makes a. Makes them have to handle themselves b. Makes them face that they're not living a good life and the have to grow to get a good life.
Someone with genuine NPD is not going to change whether or not thet are stigmatized. That is why narcissism is so insidious. We all have narcissistic traits, and not all narcissistic traits are negative. But someone with actual NPD is not a victim and they are not a poor little thing who deserves love and compassion. If you show compassion to a genuine narcissist they will see you as a sucker and proceed to fuck around with you if they consider you useful. A genuine narcissist is protected by their disorder and will never feel self-hatred because nothing they say or do is their fault. Anyone who gives them any form of attention is seen as a source of energy for them. They do not care about good or bad attention. As long as they get attention they win and they will never learn. Never change. Therapy will be nothing more than a class in how they can manipulate other people better. There aren't that many true narcissists in society (thank god) but there are many people with strong narcissistic traits who are mistaken for real narcissists and those people can be helped and rehabilitated with the right encouragement and motivation. A true narcissist is a lost cause. I genuinely don't think people realize how absolutely and fundamentally divorced real narcissists are from empathy and personal growth. Unless you have met one and lived with one, I don't think you realize what they are. Yes, they are technically human, but as someone who lived with a real life Narcissist once, I would categorize their humanity as a mask for the void underneath. I have seen what is underneath one such mask and I never want to see that ever again. Because that shit was not human.
@@plantemorhey! Dx’d narcissist here! I have spent my years of my life trying to become a better version of myself, most people don’t even notice my narcissistic behaviors anymore because I’ve gotten a better reign on the trauma that led to my disorder (neglect and sexual abuse). What you’re saying is the reason why for a long time I ignored my diagnosis and acted like it couldn’t be true. Because ‘narcissists are all abusive and subhuman, and I am not subhuman or abusive, so I cannot be a narcissist’. The reality is, NPD, like all mental disorders, has a variety of presentations. Not everyone with NPD is going to be an abuser, just like how not everyone with ADHD, or autism, or depression, or any other disorder are also not categorically evil. The stigma is so dangerous because a lot of us developed our ego as a defense for some way we had been humiliated in the past. After being abused sexually for years, I had an impaired sense of empathy and I was aloof and egotistical to protect myself from the shame that came with losing my virginity at nine. The stigma opens up a wound of shame that is very hard to acknowledge without professional help, but we can’t get professional help without acknowledging that we have the ‘evil disorder’. I might not be articulating this well, i apologize if I’m not.
@plantemor good job proving the video's point by dehumanizing individuals with NPD. "Because that shit was not human"??? Seriously??? I've heard that same shit for the other cluster B personality disorders, and no fucking wonder individuals who have them don't get the help they need because they're so stigmatized in and out of the field of psychology. As someone who used to have Borderline Personality Disorder (I no longer fit the diagnostic criteria due to years of working on myself and having wonderful support), I have immense empathy for individuals with NPD. Let's look at the DSM-V, shall we? And no, I'm not about to list the dx criteria, I'm moving onto a very important section everyone seems to fucking forget when it comes to ALL disorders: Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis. The first sentence states, "Vulnerability in self-esteem makes individuals with narcissistic personality disorder very sensitive to 'injury' from criticism or defeat' (American Psychiatric Association, 2013, p. 671). Now, why is this? Have you ever asked yourself that? No, of course not, because those with NPD apparently have nothing but a void beneath a human mask according to you. Let's move on to the next sentence, "Although they may not show it outwardly, criticism may haunt these individuals and may leave them feeling humiliated, degraded, hollow, and empty" (American Psychiatric Association, 2013, p. 671). This makes me curious as to what happened to individuals with NPD when they were children to make them so sensitive to this. There are loads of research pointing to environmental causes of personality disorders (mind you, there is some argument to biological causes, such as genes making one more susceptible to developing a PD). What happened to make a person need to put up a wall of grandiose sense of self to hide/protect the insecure person (that "void" you mentioned so sweetly earlier) from the world? Do you really think a person with NPD wants to keep up that exhausting frame of mind forever? This isn't to say you have to forgive anyone who made your life miserable simply due to them having mental illness. That's bullshit. This is to say not to demonize an entire group of individuals (the DSM-IV measured that 0-6.2% of the population has NPD) based on anecdotal experience and pop-psychology videos online. Not really expecting anyone to read my long ass and disorganized rant. I'm just screaming into the woods my frustrations regarding how people treat individuals with cluster b personality disorders. ✌️
I once asked in the comments of this psychologist's comment something like "What should I do if I see those traits in myself? How do I stop?" And his answer was very hopeless, almost saying narcissists are just unfixable. That attitude is scary. Specially considering how the people I see being accused or that or manipulation and so on, are usually neurodivergent and have other issues.
@@Chelaxim I am just wondering if you watched the video. Also, if I asked a therapist for help and they said I'm not fixable, what would listening to them mean?
@@PaniACoCo I can relate i feel bad for people with NPD cause for me having BPD I was actually told that I could treat them with DBT, medications, CBT etc. if you actually are wondering how to help it i'd actually suggest treatments for BPD maybe that might help as BPD can have a mix of traits from NPD and ASD and I feel a lot of it would help. I would also suggest focusing on your actions rather than your intentions. Imo it's okay if you are doing something good for selfish reasons cause you're doing something good. My tips would be Journal a lot, look up DBT and CBT journaling techniques, write down what symptoms you are worried about and what causes or "triggers" them, write down the accessions and see if they really are you being manipulative or you being blamed. I also agree to some degree to the comment in that sometimes you have to take critique of others opinions on where to fix but sometimes people aren't aware that they can't have toxic traits too and just blame personality disorders cause personality disorders have some bad traits. Oh, I also suggest looking up healthy narcissism too and remind yourself of your good traits too. In my opinion you can't be fully cured of your personality disorder but if your brain wired to develop NPD I believe you can unwire it in a way that can make you healtier. If NPD's are unfixable that BPD's like me are unfixable too apparently which I disagree. And the fact you are aware to ask this makes me believe you can be fixed in a way.
@@TravellerZasha sorry for the way I phrased it. I'm pretty sure I don't have that, just adhd and depression. I worded it that way then because I wanted to see the response. I also believe that actions matter more than what you feel.
@@Chelaxim but that's the thing, there is no consensus and our understanding of this personality order is changing. I don't care about the victims insofar on how to treat people with said disorder.
it's a bit ironic how some people will say "narcissists take advantage of other people!" and then turn around and make thousands of dollars off of demonizing people with mental health conditions
Exactly it's so contradicting she wants to make money off of these so called "demons" when she no better she wasting her life and energy on these people anyways 😂
That's not ironic. That's a delusion you are having. People are NOT really making thousand of dollars doing JUST that. Narcissism is NOT a mental health condition. Is a mental health threat. Narcissists make other people ... themselves! Ffs.
I have bipolar I and became genuinely distressed at one point because of how many boxes I ticked in the covert category when depressed and communal when I'm manic. I became legitimately concerned that I'd duped people into thinking I have a "good" mental illness when I actually had a "bad" one, for some reason characterising NPD as "bad" specifically because of damaging and superficial content.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS. I've been saying for years that NPD is not "evil person disease" but I always got hit with downvotes and people telling me I'm either a narcisstic abuser myself or an apologist or both. It's completely absurd. Thank you so much.
Its so fucking annoying when people write off "being abusive" as a general symptom for all cluster B disorders. Like, do you seriously think you're morally superior for isolating mentally ill folk because "thats the way they are"? History teaches that such prejustices led to literal genocides. You aren't being good, you are just an ableist with a closed mind
well i followed an instagram content creator diagnosed with NPD and BPD, they used to be those "empaths" who see narcissists as the "big ol meanie boogeyman". Only to discover they are narcissistic too, so all I can say is, these "empaths" very anti NPD should consider if they are secretly narcissists also in denial
@@beepboop2842yes I wonder that too because it seems more likely that they see narcissistic as something that their parents were and what caused them to be abusive so they cope by demonizing it, and thus distancing themselves from them neatly seperating into 'evil' and 'good' instead of seeing it as a choice, because the idea that they could be like their parents is too scary
i have bpd so i empathize with people with other cluster B personality disorders and i feel like the internet has been trying to gaslight me back into black and white thinking of "this person bad". when i saw this video in my recommendations i got SO happy, how are we still demonizing people so much? people have so little empathy towards those who they THINK have none
I wish all these creators would just start talking about abuse without the psychological labels. Because anyone of any neurotype can be abusive and the signs of abuse (DARVOS) can be picked up regardless of the specific neurotypes involved. It would save a lot of abilism and also help more people.
Pancakes and waffles are both breakfast foods that you pour syrup on top of, but they don’t have the same name. Why aren’t waffles and pancakes labeled the same? Why don’t we JUST call them them both breakfast food? It’s because there’s slight subtle differences between the two. Being specific about where abuse is coming from and why it’s happening is not a bad thing. If a narcissist is abusing you because they have NPD then that very much is narcissistic abuse.
@@josh___something yes it does matter to be specific because the specific type of abuse is specifically coming from the NPD traits and symptoms. Anyone who says otherwise hasn’t done enough research on NPD and what it looks like and how it affects the people around them. If you wanted to specifically label abuse from other types of disorders, then you could do that as well. No one is stopping you. But to compare NPD to things like BPD just doesn’t make much sense because they’re too completely different disorders on a completely different playing field. Whereas if a BPD person harms you, it’s not because they lack empathy and it’s not because they genuinely want to harm you and derive joy from it, it’s a survival mechanism and a trauma response. Just because NPD also derives from trauma doesn’t mean that the core root of why these symptoms are happening are the same. There is a mental disconnect in these people and similarly in antisocial personality disorder, psychopathy, and sociopathy. I personally don’t even think BPD should be categorized as a personality disorder. NPD, antisocial personality disorder, psychopathy, and sociopathy are completely different than BPD. You have to look at the specific nuance parts about each disorder and why they are the way they are and how they look in real life. The root cause of why they act the way they do. Being specific about the type of abuse absolutely does help. It helped me a lot. It helped me to know why I was being treated the way I was and where it was coming from. If I had just labeled it as regular abuse I probably wouldn’t have understood it the way that I understand it now. I probably would’ve just written it off like I had my entire life anytime. I experienced abuse and thinking that it was no big deal and I just needed to get over it. Being able to be specific has given me a greater understanding to now protect myself from people like that in the future and notice the patterns when they happen again. The abuse that I experienced from my mother because of her bipolar disorder was completely different than the abuse that I experienced from my father because of his narcissistic tendencies. They are two completely different types of abuse. My father’s abuse was much more insidious. I can look back at what my mom did to me and realize that it was because she was unmedicated and because she didn’t know how too regulate her anger. My father on the other hand, his abuse came from the fact that he genuinely didn’t see me as human. He derived pleasure out of me being his supply.
@@Xplreli BPD isn't like sooooo different. at times when BPD split, they can show lack of empathy and lash out. BPD are very impulsive similar to ASPD. BPD is a personality disorder because it fits under the cluster b diagnosis of being a dramatic, unpredictable and emotionally intense mental disorder.
When doing research into my own neurological health, I realized a ton of 'narcissistic' traits are easily explained by traumatized low/mid-support needs ASD. Or are just traits neurotypicals just find annoying. Stinks of the adult form of 'Oppositional Defiant Disorder' (aka, 'i-give-up-on-trying-to-understand-this-child's-experience' disorder). Edit: YES, I love how you pointed out that the literal criteria are assuming intent of actions one might be powerless to control. Any disorder being marked by 'unwillingness' rather than 'inability' is ridiculous.
"'i-give-up-on-trying-to-understand-this-child's-experience' disorder" yes!! ODD is used to excuse the adults in children's lives from actually listening and being curious
In older, undiagnosed autistic generations, where self-denial and strict masking could lead to a fake / Potemkin persona, pushing that model of coping on one's undiagnosed autistic children could create generational trauma. Depending on the degree and intensity of the demands on the child to mask, it could become outright child abuse, though I am sure there were milder cases, too, and some elder autistics can do the work of discovering and accepting themselves and apologizing and making amends to their children, for example, when their grandchildren get diagnosed. My father was most likely ADHD+SAD, my mother most likely autistic. I, a tail-end boomer, was both beaten, berated and pestered at home and in school for behaving "wrong" (toe-walking, failing eye-contact, food aversions, refusing "neat and girly enough" clothes, being "weird," etc.). I got diagnosed AutDHD after I turned 40. My firstborn is also AutDHD, my youngest ADHD. My father thankfully died young. My mother reacted with anger when I told her that we had started to seek a diagnosis for the firstborn and myself. When both our ADHD diagnoses were established, I told her about them. She said "Aha," changed the subject and never mentioned ADHD or neurodivergence again. So when the youngest kid got their ADHD dx and we got our autism dxs a few years later, I didn't even bother to mention them. Both my parents were (and my mother still is) the most deeply unhappy and unauthentic people that I have ever known. They have both always been in strict denial about that anything concerning themselves or their offspring could be unusual or not "normal." Both were certainly traumatized as children, and they were also traumatizing to have as parents. Sometimes it's a both - and dynamic. For an abused, neglected and/or unaccepted child it doesn't really matter what lies behind the ill treatment. Personally, I don't care if the abuse was "narcissistic" or "sadistic" or "sociopathic" or something else - the operative term was abuse. I have rather been focusing on healing since 1990.
Same! I used to worry I was a narcissist, particularly when I was being emotionally abused because I'd be accused of many "narcissistic" traits and behaviors, and genuinely was concerned what if they're right? After I got diagnosed ASD it all made sense. Tbh, I was pretty pissed when I got diagnosed. Like so many people made me feel SO bad about myself and I worried so much about whether I was an inherently bad person but the whole time I was just a little brain-weird and getting judged so hard for it. Messed up.
Narcissism is rooted deep within wounded insecurities they likely refused to address nor aware of. I'm glad to watch a video like this which paints a narcissist in a human light.
I so appreciate you making this video. I’m a licensed therapist who is diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. One of my biggest sources of distress in life has come from coming to terms being labeled BPD…and that is specifically because for my entire career I have heard what my therapist peers say about people with personality disorders “behind the scenes” Kylee really hit the nail on the head when she shared why the stigma is so unnecessarily difficult to navigate. I feel the most important thing you said was in your voiceover note about how people who have been abused don’t owe their abusers anything, and deserve help and safety. And with that said, trying to paint people with broad brushes and limit them down to a label strips them of their humanity- and that’s not making any of us safer. I especially appreciate you being willing to tackle such a potential backlash inducing topic in such a responsible and nuanced way- in a way more responsible way than I see most content creators licensed to practice therapy exercising. That is notable… Thank you! ❤
If you're alright with commenting on it- I'm not a therapist, but I've observed BPD seems disproportionately diagnosed in young, neurodivergent women who've experienced early life trauma. *Every* person I know with a BPD diagnosis was later diagnosed with ADHD/autism and PTSD/CPTSD. Their BPD diagnoses prevented them accessing timely, appropriate treatment, often for years. I guess my question is, as an actual therapist do you think BPD is a distinct phenomenon? Is there a possibility BPD is just kind of "profiling" patients who express trauma in a specific way? And if not, what's the difference?
@@e.s.r5809 i only study psychology but i do have both adhd and bpd and I've been wondering that ever since getting my diagnoses. a lot of the symptoms overlap, although one big thing for me specifically is an intense fear of abandonment that, in my opinion, is 100% bpd. this is just anecdotal, but the women with adhd that i know can't really relate to the intensity of some of my emotions, particularly anger and euphoria. and on ADHD meds, i still have my silly goofy dramatic bpd brain, just less tired and disorganized.
@@e.s.r5809 also, i recommend looking into the new classification of personality disorders in ICD-11. there are no more distinct personality disorders, rather a spectrum with traits and varying intensity, but they still add an additional "borderline pattern specifier" because of how specific this set of symptoms tends to be
What sucks is that narcissism and antisocial personalities can be hard to differentiate in our materialistic society, as such society does not value humanity at all.
What is the point of saying "materialistic society" in this context. It adds no extra meaning and using such a strange buzzword like this sounds pretentious
@@derpkipper Because "materialistic" is a quality of society. Society doesn't have to be materialistic, it's just an emphasized quality. "Materialistic" is an adjective. You put that before a noun and it describes something. I have not seen the buzzwords "materialistic society" anywhere else, have you? If you are going to bat for semantics, maybe think a little before you post.
Thanks for having me in the video! I'm just sitting down to watch it now, but I'm looking forward to it. I love that more creators are starting to show a more humanizing lens to NPD, opposed to demonizing it.
I have OCD and before I was diagnosed I would watch dr ramani videos and obsess over whether or not I was a DIRTY NARCISSIST. I would try as hard as I could to be an “empath” and it led to so many abusive relationships in my life. Striving to be an “empath” is so bad for u
i've said this in another thread but the "empath" thing is what makes me uncomfortable the most about the npd content industrial complex like i want to set aside the rest of the conversation and point out that. like. when i say that i'm not here to dunk on "empaths" for buying into the narrative of being an "empath" i want to make the point that the level to which there is a very clear pipeline around "is insecure about being a narcissist/has trauma around narcissists" that leads directly to a pseudoscientific archetype that often leads people to overestimate their own empathy in an emotional-intuition/theory of mind way while leading them to obsess over hating narcissists has elements of a high-control-group narrative - specific target demographic, in-group and out-group, instilling its members with idealized values and behaviors, etc... fingerpointing at something like that and calling it a "cult" isn't constructive, but i'm really glad you got out, fuck
being scared i was this evil narcissist after watching all this content is what kept me from being honest with doctors and getting my bipolar diagnosis for so long
i wish people would just talk about the cycle of abuse without dressing it up in terms they barely understand. it can hurt victims and their ability to accurately comprehend what is going on around them, because the buzzwords around narcissism are often sold as universally applicable truths, and they _are_ really comforting and cathartic for someone to hear - but they're not universal to every situation. they're a band-aid solution, not a true one.
I haven't finished the video yet, but im someone who genuinely for real is a narcissist and its always so disheartening to see people online treating us like monsters. Its really nice to see someone talking that for a change
That headline, "Therapy speak is everywhere, but it may make us less empathetic" was jarring but resonated with something I've noticed in myself & others: a inclination to categorizing people, either for how they might hurt us, help us, even be useful to us, etc. And given practice, it becomes habitual to the point of making judgments at a glance, typically as a defensive tactic. I dunno. Just something that jumped out at me 😅 This was great btw
Humans are gonna human. I think it's wonderful *in theory* that many immensely-helpful psychological concepts have bled into the general consciousness and that people feel more comfortable disclosing their struggles and diagnoses---but, in practice, this has resulted in some people misusing or abusing these terms and ideas and others taking cruel advantage of other people's sympathy, compassion, and desire to understand.
It's because people are using it to pathologize assholes instead of using it to help people overcome their issues. And that's the biggest thing for me. If you're not a therapist, don't pathologize people if you don't want them to be better. If all you want is just to label someone as bad, don't pathologize them.
One of my best friends is a narcissist. He's written a book about it, multiple even. Dude's cousin is one of the most famous people in my country, which is why I presume he was bullied in the small village they both came from. Great guy. A positive force in the community, tries his best to encourage others and to make life epic. Sometimes he takes pride in "knowing the best for others", for example if I have a concern, he may voice it out for louder, or tells me as a younger friend that he'll protect me. On occasion he gets snappy or mean, but calms down if you seem more rational. He keeps getting caught in his grandiose fantasies only to get severely depressed when they don't come true. Highly worrysome, tbh. He will never grow up to be as famous as the most famous guy in the entire country, and I think he hasn't fully admitted it. That's why he always tries through new projects or telling the press a different story, which are all quite obvious if you know him. On occasions, he comes off as childish in his creative work and essays. He pretends to be big and powerful and edgy, but sometimes it's like a child throwing a tantrum. Sometimes he texts me all depressed because I have more followers than him. It isn't his fault, but it breaks my heart. I've had to tell multiple people to keep an eye on him just so he keeps alive. I love him and wish the best for his development and recovery, and the same also for his cousin, whose last album sucked btw.
books??? that’s so cool.. and i’d imagine having a super famous family member would make even a non npd person feel insecure from time to time honestly
@@juliadrake207 Definitely. I myself have had a relative be a successful singer decades back. It alters everything, if not universally then in that specific area. Luckily we don't share a last name.
I can understand why Dr. Ramani’s videos are so popular. I once had a friend breakup that went horribly bad. I set a hard boundary while he was treating me badly, and he suddenly unleashed all these insults on me that had to do with a lot of personal things I was going through. It was clear that whenever I talked about any personal pain or hardships, he stocked those things up to use them to hurt me. It didn’t hurt me, I was too freaked out to be hurt. It seemed like a crazy thing to do. I told another friend that I couldn’t understand why someone would do that, and he said “oh well, he’s a narcissist.” After that, if I met someone who manipulated people by pushing at their weaknesses or insecurities, I would say “oh that’s a narcissist” and stay away from them. But eventually, through working on my boundaries in therapy, I realized that the reason to stay away from those people wasn’t because of some diagnosis that I made up. It was because they were jerks. I don’t like people who are manipulative, and I shouldn’t hang out with people I don’t like. I think Dr. Ramani is successful in part because it’s so much easier to say “stay away from this person because they are evil” than it is to examine why you get into bad relationships. But also, this doesn’t mean anyone should flip this and start diagnosing people who follow Dr. Ramani as people with boundaries issues. Sometimes people get into a bad relationship for no other reason than bad luck, not everything is a pathological issue.
I've also watched a bit of Dr. Ramani, and she's often stated that narcissism isn't a diagnosis. It's the same as calling them jerks. You didn't make up a diagnosis, you made an evaluation of their personality, which you also do when you call them a jerk. Finding out why you get into bad relationships is not something you can do through a video, but recognizing narcissistic traits is. Also, the word narcissist is valuable cuz it's more descriptive of the manipulative aspects of people.
Something I've been saying for a while is "Everyone's a mental health advocate until a Cluster B is around". Half the comments here are chomping at the bit to prove me right.
@@keifkeith Cluster B is a group of official diagnoses considered personality disorders, including narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, and borderline personality disorder. People tend to call themselves advocates, but demonize cluster b diagnoses as ‘inhuman’
As someone who is currently planning on going down a path of becoming a Cluster-B PD's specializing therapist I really respect the fact that you made this video. Peer Reviewed studies found that a majority of psychologists will not work with any Cluster B's, and further more Cluster Bs are more likely to not get help due to the demonization of these disorders.
Yeah, narcissism is a particularly tragic disorder because the only way to help a person manage it is for them to buy into the process - it’s impossible to give effective therapy against someone’s will or even just without their good-faith engagement. And the disorder makes it unlikely they’ll buy in in the first place. To all those that are really putting in the time for self reflection, you are loved and your efforts are appreciated. But a lot of narcissists will end up using therapy as another weapon. I just wish there was a better way to help.
Why are people so against cluster-b being healed, it's literally helping everyone! Don't throw around 'most aren't willing to get help' after this person literally said that most therapists, the people who can actually help them, refuse to help.
Our dad has NPD and he was extremely abusive towards us in our childhood, which is why we developed DID. Our partner now as well has NPD and they're the healthiest relationship we've ever had 😊 They're incredibly loving and sweet and supportive. Of course they have their struggles as anyone with a lot of trauma probably has, but they've never been abusive. We think that the main difference between them and our dad and what's the "real" cause of most abuse, we think, is that our dad believed that he had the right to control us. This dynamic of power over and ownership that gets promoted by our society is the driving force behind all sorts of horror. When you own something and think that you have a right to this thing working according to your wishes, it's only "reasonable" to use force if it doesn't.
I've got BPD and one of my close friends is in the process of getting diagnosed as a system. They also have BPD, and while some of their alters have more symptoms than others, overall there's more overlap in trauma than I expected. We have some similar experiences with dissociation, lack of emotional regulation, and emotional flashbacks. I think my dad had BPD, but it skewed more narcissistic, so it's possible it was NPD. Understanding that neither them nor myself are the same as the people who hurt us was a massively important part of self-awareness. Like you guys, my friends and I both had fathers who felt entitled, like they owned us, though they differed in the kind of control they used. Parents who don't view children as people will always be a huge contributor to childhood trauma. And unfortunately, you're right that society seems to accept it. I hope your relationship continues to thrive. I'm not sure where you guys are in the process of healing or what the end goal is, but I wish you the best in it. ❤
@@EclecticallyEccentric if you look at the literature, men with BPD are going to come out differently. Lots of the literature suggests men with bpd often times don't make it passed their teens. If they do, it's very similar to Anakin Skywalker. The event that killed most men, caused a severe antisocial and Narcissistic trait overlay, but it's not actual NPD. Men will just have more sociopathic and complete detachment, due to being a man with emotional needs at all is already frowned upon, bpd emotional needs for men are just seen as needy, weak and entitled. Even from BPD women 😂
@@AnimosityIncarnateI've read about BPD in men, especially coming across as having more NPD traits. That is one of the reasons I think he likely had BPD, but I understand it's possible it was NPD instead. I'm hesitant to say with certainty as I'm not a mental health professional. My father seemed to switch between cold and detached to warm, but too often that warmth was burning rage. As for viewing male emotions as weak, I will tell you I lost respect for my father as a teenager. I still feared his rage. But I did not respect him. Because I was expected to control my emotions in a way he didn't. I don't believe he was entitled to respect from me at this point. I loved my father, but I hated his hypocrisy. I do feel sorry for him, in a way. I wish he'd sought help and been able to accept he needed it. I definitely agree, culture and the way emotions are viewed in relation to gender is a large part of the problem. I've had close male friends cry around me, and I'm much more comfortable with that than with aggression. I didn't look down on them, but I can't speak for anyone but myself. I likely wouldn't have the same level of care or patience with a man displaying anger in an aggressive way. Unfortunately, anger is what society deems acceptable for men to show.
The funny thing is, clusters A and C don't receive anywhere near as much attention as Cluster B. Cluster B is the "dramatic, obvious" one. It's the one easiest to demonize. Of course there are people in it who are truly terrible people, but people are individuals.
@Brxwn9 Eclectically Eccentric literally didn't excuse anything. They said "people are individuals" and you took that as some kind of attack? I find your language disturbing. How is the statement "most ___ all behave the same" EVER excusable to apply to a minority group, like literally replace it with a gender, ethnicity, or "socially acceptable" disability and see how that sounds. "Most people with aspd and npd are abusive" umm citation please? What's your source? Furthermore what are you suggesting to do with that information, get people treatment and help so they can stop with the abusive patterns of behavior or throw them in the garbage as your tone seems to imply. Like what does "be[ing] held accountable" mean if not abandoning and avoiding a group of people like the plague on the basis of their disability. Also how fucking dare you just say that an entire group of people are incapable of feeling regret/pain. You are dehumanizing and demonizing a group of people. To be clear I advocate for treating abuse as abuse, a horrible thing which must be stopped, that the abuser is to blame for and the victim owes their abuser nothing. I hate abusers. I am just skeptical of your claim that sufferers of certain disorders are inherently abusive and evil. Treat people like individual people, judge them by their ACTIONS and not a disability they didn't choose to have. Yes, disorders impact people's behaviors, yes being aware of a person's mental illness helps identify warning signs, but to call a group, which DEFINITELY CONTAINS innocent people "inherently abusive" is incredibly harmful. I don't know your politics but I'm making the guess that you aren't a homophobe. Don't you remember how just a few decades ago there were all these "facts" "proving" that gay people are dangerous, and how that all turned out to be bullshit? Don't you see you're being tricked into bigotry?
@Brxwn9There’s a difference between having no tolerance for bad behavior and writing a person off as inhuman the moment they have a diagnosis that’s stigmatized.
@@larad9180 a person with no tolerance of bad behavior actually has compassion for themselves and other people. The people who consider people with cluster b are evil and inhuman are lacking in compassion and have bought the lies that sound good because they feel validated.
@Brxwn9Thank you! I could be viewed as “demonizing” them, but only because these personality disorders are more or less DEFINED around being an abuser. I’m sure there are some genuinely kind people with cluster B personality disorders, but the majority of people with cluster B disorders are genuinely dangerous, abusive people, who will absolutely latch on to any excuse like this to encourage more people to accept their harmful behavior. I don’t feel sorry for them unless they genuinely want to change. And they have to want to change because they want to stop causing harm, not purely because it benefits them. If they aren’t concerned with others’ well-being, I can’t possibly see why others should be concerned about them.
The problem is: there are too many non professionals and especially people who haven't sufficiently researched, talking about narcissism. It clouds the waters.
So. We"re pretty sure my father is an actual diagnosable narcissist. But as someone who's autistic and sick of hearing that autistic people are assholes or use their diagnosis as an excuse to be assholes, I'm fully aware narcissism is not what makes my father a shitty person. He just actively chooses to do the shitty thing at every opportunity and just as you can have a diagnosis and learn not to do that, you can be perfectly fine and still do it. Distancing ourselves from certain people by deciding they're not human keeps us blind to stuff we might need to be vigilant about in ourselves, I.e. I could never be that much of a jerk because I'm not a narcissist. Like yes actually, you can. Learn to see it so you can own it and fix it if it happens.
Exactly. I have AuDHD and am basically a big goofy teddy bear. My ex is likely NPD or bipolar or whatever I’ll never know ow because he refuses to go to therapy for any reason. The only thing I need to know is that he chose to be the absolute most awful husband again and again for 10 years nonstop and blamed me for all of it whilst also somehow saying he knew it was all him. 🤷♀️🤷♀️. As a person who has lived with him for 10 years he certainly seems to love himself more than any other person on earth. He is always first even when he lets someone go ahead. Trust you will be paying for it on the backend.
No you can't...if you could then you would understand how they think and would be able to defend yourself.because we are from two different worlds thats why we can't understand narcissists...because the way they think it's alien to us Those thoughts never crossed our mind and to be more precise we never felt these feelings thats why we can never think how they think Like if I m a straight man I can't understand the attraction to men If I love animals and the earth I can never understand someone who enjoys destroying If I m not a masochist I can't understand how ppl like pain and sexual humiliation .i dunno that feeling so I cant know how they think either If I m not a pedophile.....
@@Maruzzela-l1u dang. You are so right. I spent like a half hour with my therapist being completely gobsmacked by her explanation that people can lie to themselves so thoroughly that it’s like they are delusional but they aren’t. To me it’s like, how can I perceive something that didn’t happen. How can I mix up words so much and lie to myself so long that I actually am no longer in touch with what is real. My mom is like this real bad I actually just had to cut her off because she was sucking too much mental power from me. It’s too hard being around people who are basically in delulu land.
@@Maruzzela-l1u You're weird as hell, you've obviously been brainwashed by pop psych bs so there's no use trying to converse with you in good faith, but I hope reading this at least makes your day a little bit worse
What really bothers me is that it's become a buzzword. Literally any time someone comes out with an ab*se story they call them a narcissist and I'm like bro, 😭 especially when they're not straight or cis. Not every single person on the internet is a narcissist and you don't even know them! I myself had a brother that we believe to have npd and it was different because i lived with him. I also used to believe one of my parents was a narcissist until I got told more lore and I realized they were just messed up 🤷🏼♀ yall gotta stop calling everyone with self esteem a narcissist and stop calling strangers that in general.
I mean most personality disorders, especially NPD are believed to stem from abuse. So both things could be true. Your parent could be a narcissist. It could be a result of their experiences. It usually is.
Agreed- like certain people will use it as a buzzword when referring to trans people because apparently wanting to be comfortable in your own body is selfish.
That reminds me of the time I was watching a YT video where the creator had used a very obvious blurring filter. A lot of people in the comments kept going, "Wow! You look great! Must be because you're so unproblematic!" All I said was, "Guys, in this video he's obviously using a filter that erases every single line on his face lol. I think he looks good in general, but come on." And I immediately had a few people respond with, "you're a narcissist!" It was very weird.
Two things I want to remember from this video: 1. People with NPD struggle to self-regulate their sense of self-worth. 2. NPD is a trauma response. Both serve to make it easier for me to think in a more compassionate way of people with NPD, which is what I was looking for. Stigma doesn't help anyone.
I feel like the complexity of narcissist shows how important it is to remember not to get consumed with labels. Narratives and their nuances help so much more. There are people who are even more vilified than narcissists (psychopaths) and it is only a subset who are dangerous and it is actions like torturing animals that are a greater signal than a diagnosis.
I appreciate your nuanced take with Dr. Ramani. When I was living with an abusive family member, I watched her videos daily because they made me feel seen and gave me a “why” for my family member’s actions. I escaped that situation, and I haven’t really watched her videos since then. I don’t think my family member would be diagnosed with NPD, and he’s probably not even a “narcissist” but the patterns of abuse were similar enough that her advice helped. I think a lot of people feel similarly, her videos are like a form of free therapy for folks in the thick of it. I’ve always had some issues with Dr. Ramani’s approach, but I think she’s probably the best narcissist content creator, and I only ever really watched her. Cant even imagine the hellscape of pop psychology on tiktok
I suggest you check out prof. Sam Vaknin, a diagnosed narcisisst university professor. After hearing him youll think dr ramani is even more pop psychology, still very good for the first realisation shocks, but in order to understand narcisissm correctly, vaknin is not to be ignored
@@zazou7457 Vaknin is interesting. I take him with a grain of salt too. He sounds very good, cites a lot for sources but do you look them up and analyse them? I don't lol. But his ideas about introjects and how people with NPD think (they don't gaslight, they can't, they believe their own delusions) has helped me to take the behaviour of my abuser and her flying monkeys a lot less personally. His credentials are... interesting
Dr Ramani has hundreds of clients as well as backed up research. The only thing I heard half way through this was, “in my experience…” I’ll take the research and thousands of hours of experience. While I hear what you’re saying that narcissists are human too, it’s really hard for a lot of people to set MUCH needed boundaries around them. And, while some may change, it’s important for people suckered in by the lies, deceit etc to get clear that maybe for their case, they need to NOT be empathic with the narcissist because they’ve over done it for way to long, have gotten immensely taken advantage of and need to just get away and/or set firm boundaries. I don’t think there’s a narcissistic industrial complex, I think there’s a pandemic of toxic self centeredness and narcissism in the culture, especially in the USA. The popular psychologists or professionals are calling it out and I say thank god. Maybe people will change if most of the population refuses to put up with being treated badly. If they make a bunch of money, good for them. Isn’t that what you’re doing with your channel?!. I don’t think Dr Ramani is like Oprah or anything though! I think she’d laugh to know people think she’s getting filthy rich off this.
Psychology in Seattle has a huge deep dive on Narcissistic Personality Disorder(run by an experienced therapist), and it explains it really well with compassion toward narcissists. He does a great job of explaining the disorder, why it happens, and treatment without using the demonizing language that a lot of people, even clinicians, use. I really appreciate his work to destigmatize and educate about personality disorders as someone who has one (BPD).
I think the problem we should all remember is no matter the mental health issue, if you don't take care of yourself and listen to those you hurt, you will continue to hurt them and eventually stop caring that you do. Because they're the problem, not you. There's different levels of pain. And in those levels you could accidentally hurt someone. But that can be fixed. It's when you use your pain to hurt others that it might be too late to fix it because you've hurt them too much and they might not want to be around you anymore. That's when YOU need to decide what is greater. The pain YOU feel? Or the pain you inflict from it. That's what I think makes genuine awful people. When you hurt people and stop caring you're hurting people
I observed that if you put the key word narcissist. it gains a lot of viewers. And sometimes, even psychiatrists or well known therapists talked about the how to deal with narcissistic person but never asking the questions "Why?" The only person that shed lights in to being narcissistic is Dr Gabor Mate... According to him, they are just very traumatized people... I've been thinking about this, this past few months
Yeah most mental illnesses come from a mix of genetics and environment. We don’t know the exact cause of most mental illnesses currently, that’s not really something we could ethically test, but that’s the best guess we have based on the research we have right now. That includes personality disorders. Including NPD and ASPD. As someone who’s been through severe abuse and likely has a PD, I can attest that it most likely is trauma for most people. But that is just an opinion without research.
I'm an incredibly traumatized person, however, I do not abuse people emotionally, mentally, or physically. Trauma is no excuse to abuse others. We shouldn't be excusing people's damaging behaviour.
@@jentlefer you are awsome for not inflictiing pain to other people. however, no matter how much i dont wanna say this. there is no black and white. only shades of gray. people's damaging behaviour exists for a "reason". and maybe when we ask the question "why"? then the start of stopping the cycle. no matter how hard it is to understand and felt like theres no justice
@@jentlefer i feel like acknowledging some people's trauma manifests behaviours that can harm other people as well as themselves isn't "making excuses" though? "i understand why you ended up doing this" is not the same thing as saying "i will never stand up for myself when you do hurtful things and act like they are a good thing". pretending the only reason people hurt others is because they are conciously trying to do so and that this is something only a subsect of people are capable of helps no one.
Quite literally happened to me over message once and I was so confused because I read the message back and couldn't figure out how I was meant to structure it any differently
@@basicjenkins Agree 100%. The "saying 'I' so much" thing is boIoks. It's armchair psychologists who take DSM definitions & break them down by NON-scientific language. Like as if saying "I hope you're feeling better" is 'narcissistic' cos a "normal" [>_>] person would have said instead: "Hopefully you're feeling better." Nvm that's a more passive phrasing, and the _point_ is that you should feel better and you are cared about; these armchair psychs claim that the 2nd, "non-I" way, "you wouldn't putting yourself at the centre, cos *'I'* hope?! Even my feeling better is about YOU??" It's silly, but it's worse than that. People go WAY too far with this stuff, like to a point that can be damaging to interpersonal relationships. I'm watching the video as I type this so not halfway through, but fwiw though I don't like the pathologisation of everything. Like there was a Behind the Bastards pod on some bastard who secretly harmed a lot of people, and the guest, vexed as to why _like that,_ asked the host, "Why woyld be do this? Do you think he did this [awful thing] cos of being kind of narcissistic, like to be remembered?" (Fwiw, context clues made it obvious he meant it as the trait descriptor, not as NPD, and further, host Robert shot it down anyway & even noted it's not about having a mental health issue, that seeking "which" is a wasted endeavour.) It's prudent to note that there is a difference between the trait of narcissism and the disorder, NPD, a full-bodied diagnosis well beyond "person has narcissistic traits". (And with an unfortunate name, but that's the DSM. "Personality disorders" is kinda crap, and I don't have one so I'm not taking personal offence.) It's made yet worse by the increasingly bold self-ID narcissists who come out of the woodwork to write essay comments about being maligned for being NPD narcissists is "literally the same as maligning someone for having depression or cancer, but they only do it with NPD". There's a gray area, but it's not the same cos the issue with people who cause harm is the harm they cause, not the idea that they have NPD, and they want to be excused carte blanche, across the board, for the overt harm they cause to others - not recognising that "we can't change who we are, but we can learn to recognise and change behaviours that harm others". True with NPD and "non-pathological" narcissism and depression and anything else, but one is not like the others. The issue is that it's not the same when having been at the hands of a narcissistic betrayer who caused lasting harm and refused to change cos they wouldn't even recognise that they were causing harm. But it's unhelpful to express offence at something no one said, like (to quote one) "I'm sick of everyone saying that all r[SA]ists have NPD!" That was in response to the guest asking if narcissism (not NPD; context clues) might have been behind why a man wronged so many people. No one said "NPD = will SA" is a thing I've never seen or heard anyone say outside that comment alleging it. That said, yeah, we shouldn't be flattening people into caricatures according to which diagnosis they have, or any such narrow category. People just insist on doing that. I talk of narcissists in my life, but I'm talking of the harm they cause c/o narcissistic behaviour & refusal to seek help or even accept they have a problem, nvm should change. There are narcissists I've known who have that insecurity, the "feeling trash so lashing out at others to make them feel like trash", but the problem isn't getting them a diagnosis (if they haven't), it's getting them to stop harming people, and not ending up incapacitated from the defensive wounds endured with every attempt at helping out or even just being a friend to them. It's not the NPD, it's the narcissism, the excuses, the selfishness, the lack of consideration for others... I'm not cutting off someone because they have NPD; I do it for allll the other stuff, cos even I don't deserve such mistreatment. Sorry for rambling.
@@witchcraftandlizardryLiterally it's an armchair diagnosis thing, notably common in true crime. "Her letter claimed to be about her friend, but note how she starts every sentence with 'I' and talks about _her_ feelings." Like the "I hope you feel better" example in my long ramble above. I don't have NPD, btw, and have suffered at the hands of people who do, so I'm not getting defensive (as in feeling personally attacked)... I guess I am defending OP's post cos it's very normal and you're sounding like the armchair """"experts"""" who jump in like "THERE! NPD! 17/20!" Do you need a mirror, or?
@@mookinbabysealfurmittens sorry I thought it was clear I was joking I was gonna use a tone indicator but I thought because I was responding to a joke it would be implied. I was armchair psycho-analyzing but was careful not to use ‘I’ pronoun myself lol but yea I know all about and I’ve noticed a decline in the use of the word where like in 2017 it was a big thing like I noticed ppl have shifted to saying toxic or abusive instead and after I recovered from abuse myself many years ago I am disinterested in the topic and don’t think it’s wrong for ppl to try to understand their experiences but I hate the diagnosing or when true crime throws around psychopath or sociopath because any of these diagnosis don’t inherently make a person evil or bad. I have periods of struggling with empathy cause of my autism but one can choose to do what is socially right like you don’t need to have empathy or guilt remorse etc etc to be a good person and it can really just be a form of neurodivergence and a self aware person does not need to have themselves stigmatized this way just because some are not interested in integrating into society and social stuff etc or something I kind of forget where I was going w this
I often think narcissistic tendencies develop from heavily toxic and abusive environments which is sad in itself. You’ve been abused and now everyone wants to judge you for micro aggressions based on a label you were given to help you manage your life. Doesn’t seem fair
Depends. Sometimes they're macroaggressions or gaslighting your romantic partner. There's a huge lack of nuance on this issue. But for people with truly highly narcissistic personalities they're definitely not micro aggressions.
@@IshtarNike I think people who are narcissistic and are getting help deserve support. People who engage in aggressive behaviour while taking no accountability are often the ones who get negative attention and deservedly so.
I was abused by someone who displays a lot of traits of NPD including the core mindset of self hatred. The thing that helped me the most in healing was 1. Everyone finding out I was telling the truth and he is in fact a horrible person 2. Listening to people suffering from NPD- their stories, their struggles, their thoughts processes. If he does have NPD like my therapist theorizes, then he suffers from it. He’s struggling deeply. He needs help. I can see, from a distance, his life falling apart, him abusing someone else, his self loathing and lack of identity. It doesn’t make me happy, but it makes me see him as human. And that helps me a lot personally
Same situation-my abuser ofc has not been diagnosed so all I can say is the exhibit most of the traits and beliefs of a narcissist, but if he does have NPD, that actually makes it easier for me to believe he’s not just an inherently terrible person, but someone with bad coping mechanisms who needs help. Of course, while we were together I didn’t feel like I could leave because while he was treating me like shit, he had me convinced things would be okay if I just helped him, so it’s still a little complicated. He kept reminding me he had depression and trauma and all these illnesses and that he just needed help, and that once he got help (which he was actively NOT seeking from anywhere but me), then he would treat me better, so I would be “heartless” and “stupid” and “immoral” as a person to leave him. Eventually I found out that he had been fully lying about 70% of his trauma (claiming to have watched people die who are still alive, talking about a ton of military trauma when he was never in the military) and staging the emergencies that I “had to help him through.” If I didn’t find out those were lies, I would still be stuck there. If he had been diagnosed with NPD while we were together but wasn’t seeking treatment, I can imagine him using it to call me heartless again for not just helping him when all he needs is help and support. I was willing to believe he “just needed help” because even without the lies though, I saw it. And I still do. He was deeply insecure and suffering for it, and acting out and pushing others down to help relieve that. And I did and still do feel bad for him because of it and hope he gets the help that he actually needs. I don’t forgive him for everything he did to me, mostly because he’s never apologized or even admitted to any of it, but I do think someday if he tries he can get better, and I hope he does-more for the sake of his future partner, but also someday for his own peace. I’ve been watching a lot of content from people diagnosed with NPD who have been through treatment, and it’s really helped me understand why maybe he treated me the way he did and to sympathize with him. But something they all repeat is that it’s work that they had to go through, and they had to take the initiative to go through and keep going through. Which my ex was never willing to do. I think it’s important to have empathy for people with NPD, and to remember they are human and do need help, but also that generally speaking, they’re the ones who need to seek that help. They’re not monsters, but if they do hurt you, you don’t have to be (and really can’t be) the one to help them.
my mom became a narcissists bad content creator when i was a kid & now i have a bpd diagnosis & im doing my phd in the neuroscience of bpd & am so radically against personality disorder stigma its crazy. ty for this video, ive only recently seen this take getting traction
I'm so sorry, you must have faced a lot of emotional neglect from her. I hate the stigma too, people with cluster Bs are people with trauma disorders. It is the same with DID, we are in the same sort of boat, and I refuse to throw people under the bus, just because DID is getting destigmatized.
im so glad to finally see a more mainstream creator talking about npd in a more nuanced and unsensational way. the villainization of narcissism and conflation of the disorder with abuse hurts both people with stigmatised mental illnesses and abuse victims. as someone with personality disorders (not npd but still) im very excited for ppl to finally realise this and move away from this awful trend
once u know a real legit narcissist, you realize how terribly loosely the term is thrown around. Ive only known one in my life and they aren't that common to come across
It’s estimated to be actually 1 out of 25 people. I’ve met more than a few and I can say they had all of the hallmarked traits. Including the biggest which is lack of empathy,
@@purevenus6359that trait just could be attributed to autism or ASPD Being forced to mask your whole life potentially makes you bitter enough to be abusive. It is highly likely that they could have the other "good" disorders instead
I would like to remind everyone at all times that a person is a human being no matter their actions nor batshit behavior. They still experience and have their motives in life just as you do.
I used to see those videos and be like "oh no am I a narcissist??" and that was really not a great time, being overly vigilant of my own emotions. EDIT: this was to share that overly vague and generalising pop psychology videos can affect people with anxiety in different ways, and if you experienced something similar you're not alone.
@@ookamiblade6318NPD is about projecting a perfect self into the world because of how much you hate yourself though? Someone with narcissism can very much be worried about it
@@ookamiblade6318this is not the take you think it is. A disorder that is largely about needing validation can include needing validation that you are a good and mentally well person. Being obsessed with how you come off includes being obsessed with coming off well. Being insecure of your identity is the core of a large amount of personality disorders. If someone recognizes symptoms in themselves to the point they're worried they have a disorder, even if they conclude they dont have the disorder, it doesn't meant they're "safe" it means there could be some behaviors to work on.
As a narcissist, thank you for making this video. A lot of personality disorder circles focus on activism in such a way that we say “don’t use the word narcissistic, it’s ableist to people with NPD” instead of saying “maybe there shouldn’t be something called Narcissistic Personality Disorder”
Shout out to that one tumblr post that goes "Doctors could name a disorder "Whiny B*tch Disorder" and I assure you that the reaction in the ND community at large would not be "what the f*ck is wrong with the psychiatric field and how they think of mentally ill people, we should not allow that name and diagnosis", but rather "PSA: Please don't use 'whiny' and 'b*tch' as insults, that's ableist against people with Whiny B*tch Disorder!"".
Shout out to that one tumblr post that goes "Doctors could name a disorder "Whiny B--ch Disorder" and I assure you that the reaction in the ND community at large would not be "what the f--k is wrong with the psychiatric field and how they think of mentally ill people, we should not allow that name and diagnosis", but rather "PSA: Please don't use 'whiny' and 'b--ch' as insults, that's ableist against people with Whiny B--ch Disorder!"".
Agreed I feel bad for people with NPD cause I have BPD with some narcisstic traits and with how much I'm villainized for having such traits I can't imagine how people with NPD deal with it. It just makes people with NPD less likely to get help cause they'll feel like they are the labels others tell them. I also find this very hypocritical how people call personality disorders the toxic abusive ones but yet are verbally abusing us with these labels.
"De-stigmatize mental health!" (Villainizes personality disorders instead of realizing unrecovered people who has currntly [but temporarily] meet PD criteria are suffering as much as they're making others suffer.)
Ive always thought it was bizarre that we treat npd so differently from other mental health disorders. If someone is borderline, people are willing to forgive and try to treat their awful behavior, but if theyre trying to resolve their npd, its seen as hopeless
My best friend has been diagnosed with npd and ive always hated the stigma attached to it. He isnt empathetic at all but he learned how to react when he should, like he isnt sad that your sad but he does care and chooses to comfort you. It's like assuming someone walking slow is doing so because they want to be late and not because they have a limp. Obviously if he does something rude i would tell him off like anyone else but he isnt rude, evil, or mean, hes kind, thoughtful, and sweet. I judge him on his word and actions, not his lack of reaction to things he doesnt understand.
Thank you so much Elliot for making this video. I wish I saw this in 2018, when I discovered my narcissistic tendencies. (I'm not officially diagnosed, and I don't know if I have NPD or not. My narcissistic traits are many, though.) When I tried to educate myself about it, most of what I found told me that I wasn't even human, and that I was doomed to hurt everyone around me. I went into a spiral, always drinking, distancing myself from people as not to hurt them. It was bad. Fortunely, I snapped out of it. I thought, fine, if I couldn't be human I'd be a god. A benevolent god. I decided to use my narcissistic traits for good. I worked on myself and tried to become better. (I also binge watched The Good Place an embarrassing amount of times. lol Seeing narcissistic, antisocial characters learn to be better and forming bonds with others gave me hope.) I can proudly say I've become a better person. I know this because more than one person have told me so. I'm still not a saint. I still struggle with vulnerability. But I can continue to try, can't I? As for the myth of Narcissus, what I take away from it is that Narcissus doesn't love himself, only his reflection. In some versions of the tale, he doesn't even know that it is him in the pond. If he loved himself, like truly loved himself, he'd remove himself from the cold, lifeless water. He'd instead direct his attention to his real self. The self that feels pain. The self that rages and fears. The self that experiences all these complicated emotions and sensations. His tragedy is that he can only love the perfection he sees in the pond, not his real, messy self. That's the tragedy of real-life narcissists as well. So, as a part of my healing, I learned to cultivate authentic self love and self acceptance. It helped, so much. There are a couple of books I found useful. One is "Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion" by Paul Bloom, which offers a way to be good without empathy. Another is "The Selfishness of Others: An Essay on the Fear of Narcissism" by Kristin Dombek, which debunks the fear and hate people have towards narcissists. To all narcissists reading this who are trying to be better, I see you, and I love you. I know it's not easy, but please keep going because it's so worth it. I hope you have a lovely day today.
I love your take on Narcissus, and super proud of you for all the progress you've made with your possible NPD despite all the toxic negativity out there telling you that you're a bad person. You deserve better, and I'm glad you're finding a way to make the life for yourself you want. Keep at it, you got this
This is such a good discussion. Nameless narcissists' point on people using it as something to obsess over and not move on from hit home for me. I was like that for a while but as I opened up to viewing creators who are narcissists and learning from their perspectives, my obsession has turned into an interest in destigmatizing the disorder and gaining more understanding. How can someone begin to want help for something that everyone bastardizes? I hope we can change the narrative so more people with NPD can get help without feeling as many of the horrible things they're already feeling. I'll be sharing this one!
I learned about narcissism way back in 2003, during a family counseling appointment. It was another attempt at getting my father to understand and accept his effect on everyone in the family. It didn't work. The counselor did say something though: he was a textbook case of narcissism. I went home and looked it up, and yeah, it seemed very accurate. At first though, being a kid, I didn't care about the label. Knowing what he was never changed what he did. We suffered so much regardless. It wasn't until I was older, living with my own mental illness that ruined my life for years, that I looked at my dad with understanding. We both lost most of our friends, our jobs, our savings, our homes. We were roommates for quite awhile, even if I still couldn't stand being around him long. Now that I have more understanding of neurodivergence, I can understand that his interaction with reality is different from mine. I still haven't fully forgiven him, but now we can actually keep in contact and have a relationship. It's not, and probably never will be, a close father-daughter relationship, but I'm glad we have what we have. EDIT: I didn't appropriately explain myself. I now understand that there's a lot going on with my father that has nothing to do with narcissism that contributes to the way he treated us. I understand that narcissism isn't the thing to blame on its own.
I was diagnosed ASD level 2 last year, but as a teen I was diagnosed with BPD. At the time, I did intensive research into the diagnosis and became hyper aware that it was a coin flip whether I got diagnosed BPD or NPD, so when I saw people calling those with NPD evil, it just reminded me of a more blatant version of the same stigma I faced from my BPD diagnosis and I was like "how is this fair?"... Now I'm convinced that BPD and NPD are bullshit crappy attempts to categorise what's simply complex trauma/CPTSD. Often, they're labels given to people with undiagnosed ASD with added gender bullshit on top (ie many with a BPD diagnosis are women with undiagnosed ASD, and many with an NPD diagnosis are men with undiagnosed ASD). You get BPD if you're seen as emotional or manipulative, NPD if you're seen as unempathetic or self absorbed. I thought my dad was a narcissist but now I know he was undiagnosed ASD and also just a terrible father lol
What about a man who is manipulative, self absorbed, unempathetic and emotional 😂😂. I am diagnosed AuDHD and my ex was diagnosed with adhd. Occasionally I wondered if he had ASD, but he was so manipulative at such a high level that I can’t imagine he would fit as autistic. No one except me and my kids know about his rages and outbursts. No one else. I cannot tell anyone I know about what is happening or I seem crazy. The few times I tried to reach out for help, folks called him to see if he was ok. It’s crazy making. And I’ve learned by now not to even engage because he is so quickly able to confound and confuse me I will fall into meltdown with in moments of his targeted attacks. I definitely have diagnosed ptsd from my decade with him to add to the CPTSD I had before we met 😂. He wouldn’t get any help and thank goodness I finally woke up!! But for me I am like the most lovable, loving loudmouth person. I can’t imagine hurting someone on purpose. I can’t imagine being able to be a totally different person in public than in private. He acts like I can’t remember by saying one thing one day and another the next and blames me and my memory. It’s gotten so bad I had to reduce all communication to text because he talks in loops I cannot understand them tells at me for asking for clarification. But even that leaves me exposed. I ask a yes or no question and I get a paragraph that is so unclear I have to keep asking for clarification which gives him the chance to be cruel and then he blocks me. So after a decade of giving this man my everything and taking all his trash and raising our kids, he is using everything he knows about me to absolutely disorient and confound me and possibly attempting to take the kids from me. Kids he doesn’t even want to raise. It’s terrifying and I’m just hoping it won’t get as bad as some folks say it will get. I don’t view him as a monster. I know he went through abuse and he is emotionally traumatized, but the way he’s behaves toward me and his kids is downright evil and I am an atheist. Like it was so bad I started to think he was the devil 😂. I had to go get help because i started to think this is the devil here to punish me for my failings. It was insane. I am so glad to be out of it. Oh lord I’m so glad. No joke I go to church now. I’m still mostly an atheist but I realized that the more I go in public around people he doesn’t know, the less he will attack me directly. So now I go to church every week with my kiddos 😂😂
@@DaughterofDiogenesStudies have shown a bias towards perceiving the same behaviour as NPD in a man but BPD in a woman. So if you have significant traits of both, your sex makes it likely you will get diagnosed with one or the other, due to assumptions in the psychiatrist about what motivates men (seeking power) versus women (seeking emotional relief). I think that is the phenomenon the commenter was referring to.
Yup. I can directly trace my bpd impulses to trauma I had. Its definitely c-ptsd in my case, though I use bpd partly bc its easier to say and explain and partly bc i hope openly identifying as bpd can help me be an advocate for those like me
As "high functioning autistic"( I don't like that label so much!), I started to be sceptical about types of narcissistic personality, when word "high- functionig" appeared. Also, the DSM's definition sounds a awful lot like definition of autism by neurotypical people- like, it's true to some degree, but... but the symptoms are described by other people, not by "sick" human himself. I often feel angry, because strangers describe autism spectrum as something alien and strange when I'm living with it and it's just... life. I'm kinda interested how "narcissist" would describe himself in context of this medical definition.
Exactly! As another autistic person, I immediately empathized with people who have personality disorders because neurotypicals (and sometimes even neurodivergents!) constantly treat us like burdens. It reminds me of the "autistic parents" stereotype. They barely even ask how *we* feel. It's always about how we affect others and never about how we affect ourselves.
it's like all of these symptoms can be categorised and have one root, one cause, which IS the true symptom. instead, this true symptom is broken into small "ordinary" fragments not for you but for *people around you*, which puts doctors (and others) in a comfortable position when they can dismiss a person saying "we're all like this from time to time" (="annoying, difficult and inconvenient"), until your condition is dire. and even they can't afford even a dime of humanity for you, because now you are "dangerous" and "incapable". but of course they want to be superficial, not to help those whose needs and appearances are different from theirs. as it said in my country, nds can only "be pitied or be laughed at". sorry for doomer take maybe.
hi! im a narcissist! and i get what you mean about the problem with using the term narcissist as separate from NPD, however the solution is not to change the name of the disorder - this was tried with ASPD (previously psychopathy and sociopathy) and the stigma didnt go away, people with ASPD are still frequently called ps*chopaths and s*ciopaths, which are now deemed derogatory terms or slurs - the solution is to not call people who dont have NPD "narcissists" the same way you shouldnt call someone who doesnt have schizophrenia "schizophrenic" you can not separate "a narcissist" from "NPD", people who are "narcissistic" without NPD are egocentric/arrogant/self-centered or whatever other synonym you want to use. narcissism also doesnt make someone evil or bad or whatever inherently, as you said, abuse is a personal choice (or, rather, a series of choices) a person makes whether they know they're harmful or not. this is partially why the phrase "narcissistic abuse" is about as meaningful as "autistic abuse" or "schizophrenic abuse". having a disorder may cause some behavioural problems (for example, im autistic and am prone to get meltdowns in which i will instinctively hit anyone who touches me (to prevent this, when i feel a meltdown coming on i make sure to make it Very Clear not to touch me or i may hurt them or myself)) but that doesnt make someone abusive. in fact, knowing that you are more prone to problem behaviours such as "overreacting" when we feel criticized or ostracized, we are able to take measures to counteract that struggle on a side note, "Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria" or RSD is something ive seen talked about a lot in ADHD and is regarded as something thats intensely painful and difficult to deal with, however when it comes to narcissists who have the same trait, it's often demonized and viewed as manipulative. this is likely due to the stigma of NPD and potentially the infantilization of ADHD furthermore, the traits of "narcissistic abuse" already have a label: emotional abuse. when you look into what many call "narcissistic abuse" all of these actions and behaviours already fall under the category of emotional abuse, there's nothing that's tied to NPD specifically. it's just another way for people to demonize a mental disorder that is most often caused by trauma and abuse in childhood i know you probably wont see this comment as this video is a year old, but if anyone wants to find some resources on narcissism but cant find it under the pile of ableist professionals and armchair pop psychologist blogs, have a masterlist of resources i found on tumblr www.tumblr.com/psychiatricwarfare/740331703668703232?source=share sorry this was so long! im not very good at condensing my thoughts 😅 but thank you if you did read this far! here's to building towards a less ableist future
Multiple therapists over the years have told me that both my mother and my husband show many classic symptoms of NPD. It was therapy that pushed me toward looking into it and I am finally willing to accept that it is likely true. They both happen to be abusive in thier own way and it is soul crushing and spirit killing. Watching videos by a particular man who was diagnosed and is in therapy and makes videos. He really taught me to see the pattern of behavior and stop worry about a certain diagnosis. Focus on the behavior and how it makes me feel and move from thier. I have always told my husband that if he was willing to get help I could stay with him. It’s been 10 years and I can’t do it anymore. He refuses still to seek any treatment and so we had to separate. My therapists have suggested he shows strong symptoms of sociopathic narcissism. And the internet describes covert narcissism and that fits very well with his personality. No one knows what he’s like. He only acts out toward me and the kids. He just treats us like he hates us and says horrible things. There’s just so much. I can totally see why it would be frustrating to have NPD and not be an abuser and get lumped in with those abusers. I think more videos by people with NPD who aren’t abusers would be so very helpful because it would help show that just because you have NPD doesn’t mean you are an abuser. I think for some reason that people need to feel like their abuse must come from somewhere and so it’s easy to blame it on NPD.
I was abused as a child, as were many of my friends, and I’ve noticed that all of us, myself included, have gone through phases of believing our abusers were narcissists. I’ve also noticed that it’s not helpful in the long term. Just a flash of being obsessive and hoping it’ll make things hurt less, but it doesn’t. Turns out therapy is much more helpful than r/raisedbynarcissists for healing from trauma.
I've employed the use of the term "the bleeding ego". I haven't mastered confidence. But people often comfuse true confidence with, what I feel to be, some form of narcissism. They need constant validation and appreciation so they project this image of an overly confident individual. But, of you know a person like this, you only have to scratch a bit past the surface to discover they are wounded, scared individuals with very low self esteem. Thus, the bleeding ego. They make their ego and sense of self the problem of those around them. They need others to hold the bandage to their wounded ego. This has been my experience with such individuals.
Yes! I had all this suspicions floating around about this new trend of cataloguing a*holes as narcissists. Smelled very essencialist and didn't help with addressing the real issue, which is the abuse.
Personally, i hate the term 'narcissistic abuse'. I went through abuse from someone with NPD, and I would never think to call it that, because it makes it sound like the reason for the abuse was their NPD, and not that they... just were a shitty person. Not everyone with NPD is abusive or controlling. Neurotypical people can be abusive, but we don't name the abuse after the PERSON, we name it after the type of abuse (domestic, sexual, etc). Isn't it interesting that the only time we tie the actual person to the term is when they have a personality disorder?
Genuinely thank you. I've seen so many neurodivergent people think that narcissists (and other cluster B's) are demons. It's great to see you make this video as i have some narc traits (like near entire cognitive empathy and some manipulitive tendencies) so thank you
I once spoke to a physically and mentally disabled woman who advocated greatly for disabled rights and had cared for many suffering people... except personality disorders. She spoke about people with PDs the way people who think the Earth is flat speak about science.
It's more so the general population outside a given community hearing of terms and overusing them so much that they end up getting appropriated in contexts that aren't even actually the correct contexts to use them in
This is a new age of education for the masses, we're seeing a lot of people learn new terms, misunderstand them, then correct their misunderstanding in real time.
As a now licensed therapist and survivor of narcissistic abuse from my dad as a child, people throw around the term narcissistic way too much. My dad is the only person with NPD that I've ever known in my life. He wasn't some big evil monster that did only horrible and bad things. He was a complex human being. Yes he did sometimes do horrible things and was most certainly an abuser towards me and my family. But he was also capable of smiling, laughing, being happy, and creating happy memories with us. This is why it was so hard for me to make the decision to cut him out of my life. Because while he was capable of making me feel so horrible and small, he also had his own trauma while growing up and all of his behaviors came from his own deep sense of insecurity and not feeling good enough.
Narcissistic abuse was made up by a guy who didn't have any kind of psych degree in order to hurt sexual assault victims. There's nothing about your so called "Narcissistic abuse" that's different from any other kind of abuse, other than being ableist
I’ve been waiting for this video. I’m with a man who has diagnosed NPD. He is very aware of it and fights to be the best version of himself he can be. I’ve watch him grow as a person to be better than his condition, taking steps to make amends for past actions and rebuild relationships. It’s been a rough journey and whenever it comes up people ask me if I’m safe and ok. I never take offense considering the vast majority of encounters people have with narcissists. It’s a rough thing to have for any party involved.
I'm a trans man, who is just starting to grapple with how men are treated by society as dangerous potential threats. I don't personally have NPD but I feel sympathy for how hard it must be for him to deal with the stigma and bias. He should be proud of the work you have put into himself and you should be proud for seeing beyond the stereotype and understanding the truth about your partner.
@@annajensen7360 Thank you from the both of us. I wish you well on your journey through manhood. While I can’t say I’m trans, there are periods where I am male presenting. I have a medical condition where I can grow a full on beard and will lean into it from time to time. Seeing everything from both worlds it’s down right heart breaking. I believe the vast majority of people deserve to have someone at least try to understand them.
excited for this video, especially after watching D'Angelo's video on Caroline Calloway. At all times I was actuely aware that yes she has undesirable personality traits, but so do lots of people. She's still a complex person, though, as are all narcissists, and deserves to be treated with the same respect and nuanced thought as everyone else. (Not excusing her actions nor ignoring the fact that she in particular probably needs several financial literacy classes and mental health support, she's just a relevant example)
I mean yeah everyone has bad personality traits but they're obviously not all equal or as extreme. she is still, in fact, a very uniquely bad person even if she is complex. Most people have good qualities and bad qualities too, yeah, but there is a threshold where if someone crosses it then others will understandably mostly view them on a negative light. When someone is riding that threshold it can be very difficult to figure out how to view that person or whether to give them the benefit of the doubt, but corline does not ride that line. I dont know where the line is exactly, but she certainly surpassed it with all her lies, theft from regular people, scams, harassment of natalie, and her doing lewd cosplays for OF of characters who are underage CSA victims. Oh and her just casually admitting that she follows 15 yos on tiktok that she's attracted to bc she likes watching them dance
Narcissistic personality disorder has been swimming around the surface of my mind since the hbomberguy/james somerton debacle. The mess of armchair diagnosticians have made themselves really visible (at least in my bubble)
She has legitimately caused harm to other people though and continues to do so. I feel sorry for how she grew up and it definitely contributed to how she acts now. I’m not saying she isn’t deserving of help but, it doesn’t absolve her from not hurting others. I don’t think everything she does is because of her personality. Nor do I think she’s innately a “bad” person. Most rich people don’t really care or have a good understanding of there’s of people less wealthy than them. I feel like a lot of credit goes to growing up in a wealthy environment.
Agreeing with the above, she's definitely choosing to be worse than her circumstances are making her, not denying that. "Undesirable personality traits" undermines the extent of her particular situation and especially the way they play into her actions, so my fault for equating her so simply with the general public. She's an exceptional person to talk about regarding narcissism given her scams, threatening behavior, and overall questionable actions. Again, not just actions with negative consequences but choices that she chooses to do with full awareness. Still, from Natalie's very empathetic perspective and from CC's perspective when not talking about how shitty she chose to be, she had a lot going on that had me like "Damn. I've been there. Lots of bad days at once and you cope with what you have and it shapes you." Not anywhere as privileged as she but still carrying my own blessings, I empathized with her turmoils when factoring in upbringing, traits, and what's happened to her (the multiple addictions if you include gambling/spending, loss of an immediate family member, struggling to appear OK when you're not, etc). Like I said, she's complex like anybody. Discussing just that from a lens like Natalie was very revealing, and the nuanced approach to examining her while still reproaching her bad choices was interesting. To a less serious extents, D'Angelo and Elliot are star examples of how to talk about people with certain narcissist traits or tendencies or 'bad' traits while not declaring them 'evil' or 'inhuman'. I really do think she and other rich kids like her need financial literacy classes and opportunities to really learn the consequences of money as well as how to live without it. She also needs mental health support to unpack why she makes certain decisions and how she can have healthier emotions. All of this to say that this style of convo we're having here is progress for sure
The way she talks about people, presumably with NPD, as if they *are* a disease is very troubling. She conflates narcissism as a trait with the disorder, and makes the former out to be almost worse- they behave this way sometimes because they *are* a (insert variety) narcissist. And this villainizing of so-called narcissists paves way for the hero, the perpetual prey of the narc: the empath. Which isn’t a thing. But you can see why the whole mythology is so seductive. The idea that everyone who’s ever hurt you is inherently evil, and they chose you because you are an inherently pure being of goodness.
and that dichotomy is such a simple way of thinking too, and because of that, so easily rewarding. viewing life as purely black and white in such a way makes it so one can always feel good about the decisions one makes regarding how one treats others, because there it'd be easy to justify either approach it: either they were a narcissist, or they were not. then one does not have to live the guilt or perception of responsibility of causing another person harm.
Thank you! I've been trying to explain my discomfort with using the word "narcissist" as shorthand for "they have too many traits that I perceive as self-centered and difficult to deal with" and just stopping the convo there without acknowledging the traits. Maybe because then we'd have to face the fact that there are reasons for those traits, and make a conscious decision to try holding space for them or dismiss them altogether. It kinda seems like using "narcissist" is a way to avoid having to directly make the *choice* of whether to consider the human behind the "narcissist" entity as a whole person with experiences that led them here. Lately, I've been trying to ask myself and others "what do you mean by that?" and trying to go further. Usually I find myself worried I'll be accused of defending "the narcissist" when really I'm trying to dig a bit deeper to see if we *have* to see the person as non-complex and non-human for the sake of the conversation.
For me I was being emotionally abused for years. I bent over backwards for this person. I spent years trying to consider the person she was behind those traits. She was unable to change. At the end of the day nothing I did, no matter how much space I held, she gaslighted and invalidated me. Second person I met with some sort of "issue" was a boss who routinely acted like work was chill and there were no deadlines. Then tore my work apart and made me cry in the office. Then gaslighted me and asked me why I thought I'd done anything wrong when she'd been on a 10 minute (softly spoken) rant nitpicking everything I did. She then ran to upper management while I was signed off with stress to get me transferred to another team because of my "performance and behaviour." I had receipts so luckily the impact was low. But her behaviour was eerily reminiscent of my wife. She feigned emotional closeness, and actively pried into my personal life to get me to open up to her. But as soon as she made me cry she started ignoring my messages. Like I was basically apologising to her and she was giving me the silent treatment after she made ME cry. I realised, after a minute, that she was punishing me with the silent treatment. I wouldn't have figured that out without learning about NPD. Even if she doesn't have it it was useful to know. Like I have no doubt the term is over used. But having made a study of the diagnostic criteria and gone over all the information I know I think I have a decent hunch about these people. The key here is, what does me holding space for them do? Yeah my boss I didn't know that long. But she exhibited lots of similar signs. Another interesting thing is that what she did to me had no benefit to her. Like with some people the nastiness makes material sense. But when it's like ego based or so personal then you can't really negotiate that with people. You also can't see it coming because it's so irrational. My manager got nothing material out of that and lost her only direct report. Made herself look bad to the rest of the team all because she somehow couldn't bring herself to just help me do my work. I would literally talk to my wife for almost an hour in a calm methodical voice to get her to understand why her words upset me and she couldn't take responsibility for anything. And to me, as a survivor of her abuse, I'm just not interested in holding more space for people like that. The NPD model works to explain the phenomenon. I know why she has it. Her mum abused her in the same way she abused me. I was constantly trying to make up for that abuse. And all she did was take more, and then call me lazy for it. Personally I don't go around calling her a narcissist to people. But I describe her behaviours accurately. And if you happen to know about narcissistic personalities and narcissistic abuse then it's a useful term to describe a suite of related behaviours. I come from a science background and I understand that sometimes two models can be equally "true." I think this is one of those times. In the abstract I hope these people can get help. But personally I'm not convinced that a personality style that is characterised by such deeply abusive behaviours shouldn't carry a warning label. Being a cis straight guy does, for example. And for good reason. It's not like cis men wake up and decide to be abusers (yes I know lots of abuse is a conscious decision z I've read Bancroft, but personality disorders are similar. That behaviour counts as conscious). It's also a form of socialisation. But correctly, we've decided that that's largely not the main issue at the moment. Protecting survivors is. That's where I come down on this. People shouldn't be labelled willy nilly. But this kind of abuse is serious and needs to be taken seriously. Edit: I do agree with the point about the industrial complex around the term which is definitely not good.
@IshtarNike I think I hear you. I don't mean that holding space for someone should mean accepting abuse and excusing the abuse with the abuser's trauma stories while ignoring your own needs (nor that if you dont hold space for your abuser that you're doing something bad). There's plenty of people I don't speak to anymore because of my own experiences with them. I also do not know you and am not telling you specifically to "hold space" for your abusers' emotions. That would be pretty messed up and upsetting. My general statements will not apply to your specific relationship dynamics with abusers in your life. I don't have answers for you specifically. I'm also not referring to narcissism as a diagnosis given by a medical professional to a patient. I'm specifically referring to when it's used in a casual context to describe someone they don't like, based on an idea that the person is just too self-centered for one's liking. I kinda only covered the first part- recognizing the reasons. I don't have an idea on what everyone should do after that because of how complex, varied, and personal that process is. We all have different capacities at different times in our lives for different people we feel are worth that kind of effort, and I think that's okay. I've been trying to re-evaluate my own process on these things. What does/could holding space look like in practice? Who is allowed to hold that space? What do we do with it? Am I going to be mad at people who choose to hold that space for someone who has hurt me? If so, why? If not, why? (These are questions for myself, and just for example of where my mind is at here.) It sounds like you recognized the reasons and made your decisions on whether it was safe to stay around those people to even think about "working it out" (which I know is not possible to do with *everyone* we come across). I fully believe you shouldn't feel any guilt for decisions made to protect yourself from an abuser. It's hard to know what to say, cause I am still very much working on my own trauma responses to things and healing from those abusive experiences. But I hope you are finding yourself having more days of feeling safe and okay as time goes on.
@@IshtarNikejust checking behaviors on a DSM checklist does not actually make someone have NPD, this is the the biggest misconception. Those traits are correlational first of all, and second of all in order to get diagnosed and full on IN PERSON assessment of various sectors has to be done.
I really think calling someone who is incredibly afraid and insecure a narcisist is a misinterpretation of their intentions. Im trying to have better tolerance and communication with people who fit some of the stereotypes of narcisism. But as it is, i dont feel emotionally guarded enough to handle the guilt triping and gaslighting. Im very trusting and take things literally, and i have so much empathy. It takes days to process manipulative conversations to understand that it was based in their anxious delusions and that they are afraid of me as much if not more than I am afraid of them.
Bro, did you seriously just imply that everyone with NPD is constantly trying to guilt trip and gaslight people? Seriously? All people with NPD are afraid and insecure. Because they are mentally ill and they are suffering from their mental illness and their trauma. None of the people you're talking about had NPD unless they were diagnosed, you've probably never met a narcissist in your life and yet you're assigning bad traits to them? Don't hold yourself too highly for having empathy. Most people who describe themselves as "Empaths" are some of the most vile people you will ever meet. Also don't use the word delusion like that. I think you need to work on self-awareness more than anything else because you sound like a jackass
in the mid 2010s i was trying to leave an abusive relationship, and i went to youtube to learn more about abuse so i could understand what happened to me, how to process it, and how to heal. at that time, narcissistic abuse videos were extremely prominent--more prominent than most other types of videos about abuse, at least from what i saw. but the more videos i saw, the more i saw that this kind of content almost seemed to encourage staying stuck in circles of rumination, which would naturally encourage viewers to continue watching those videos. i struggled to find evidence that videos like this led to people actually healing. additionally it became apparent to me that you could vilify any type of behavior in this way and place the narcissism label on it without much thought. my ex-partner did many things that were simply cruel, but he wasn't a monster or a villain. he was a human being, just as i am, who made choices and took actions that caused me harm. i don't know if he had NPD, but would it have mattered if he did? it isn't useful for me in my healing to do a postmortem armchair diagnosis. i don't have NPD, but i have another highly stigmatized disorder. my heart goes out to people with NPD, who face such extreme vitriol without nuance from the general public. they are human beings. i really enjoyed this video, it really tapped into what made me uncomfortable with pop psych content about narcissism as a whole. thank you for discussing this thoroughly and thoughtfully!
I smell someone who is lucky enough to have never dealt with narcissistic abuse and hasn't had to deal with that type of trauma. Might be better to get off that high horse though.
@@vrubin no, narcissistic abuse dehumanizes the victim of the abuse, lol. That is what narcissistic abuse is, you slowly understand that you are not a real person to them, just a useful appliance. It’s not the same as being abused by a person with depression or anxiety, because they show remorse, see your perspective, and you understand their intentions are real. Narcissists consciously (and subconsciously) manipulate and see reality and other people in a way that is completely inverted and solipsistic and is literally not capable of seeing another’s perspective. Narcissists CAN choose to not do bad things, their neural circuitry is not deficient in that respect, its just that they don’t. In other words they abuse consciously in some respect, but without fully understanding why they do these bad things. They do know they are doing bad things though. That’s what is so fucked up about it, they know they are doing it, you ask them to stop, and they don’t. Because it doesn’t benefit them. You don’t know what you are talking about.
The essentialism is really something that worries us! Whenever we try to research something to help us deal with our own narcissistic traits, we always come across some of the most vile and hateful shit. It feels like that belief of narcissists being these inhuman monsters is something that many people share, some of them mental health professionals. Some of them actively asking for violence against everyone with NPD. To us, NPD is just one of many adaptations to trauma and when those traits aren't needed anymore to keep us safe, we can start to learn something new. But the world being so hateful about it is really not super encouraging.
YOU REMINDED ME OF A PSYCHEDELIC TRIP I HAD IN WHICH I STARTED TO EXPERIENCE MYSELF FEELING THE CONSTANT NEGATIVITY THAT MY OWN TORMENTORS LIVE WITH EVERYDAY. I remember feeling lots of empathy for them because I thought to myself "if I felt so horrible about myself all the time, I'd just end things". It was a terrifying experience but it reminded me that we're all HUMANS here. Sure, it doesn't mean you have to become a co-dependent or that you have to ruin your own life to help abusive people, but it's just unfair to hate and demonize them. They're not that way because they want to.
i believe in educated self-diagnosis but i've had to teach myself not to put diagnostic labels on other people, especially when i’m coming at it from a negative pov
yes cuz armchair diagnosing doesnt help especially when you wanna other them. fighting the urge to just say, "back up your statement with sources and detailed info." like a nerd everytime someone waters down the disorder name just to put it in context of someone you dislike and disagree with.
I appreciate this take so much. I think people who’ve been through trauma (like myself) sometimes find it comforting to dehumanize narcissists as a coping mechanism/potentially to have an easier answer for why bad things happened to them. That’s not actually healthy and it’s good to talk about that.
That isn't dehumanizing you're just recognizing the obvious, that they never even cared about you in the first place so seeing them as a human is kinda meaningless due to them not having any humanity in general
@@bunnybird9342 "i think human beings with disorders i personally don't like should be treated like dirt. clearly im the normal one here" Get help, weirdo
@@devcron7041 Okay so by saying they don't have any humanity you are actually, shocker, dehumanizing them. That is what the word means. When you become comfortable treating others as subhuman you run the risk of doing the exact same things the people who hurt you did. Which is why this is considered harmful, unhelpful rhetoric.
As someone whos been diagnosed with NPD, I will say that it's definitely more of "incapable of considering the needs of others" rather than "unwilling to do so". Its been a recurring issue between me and my partner where i struggle with paying attention to her and tend to be more absorbed in my own thoughts or whatever else im doing, and she'll call me out on it and ill tell myself "okay, well, i gotta put more effort into paying attention to and actually listening to her going forward" and then i dont, and i dont realize im not doing it until she points it out again.
Personality disorders like narcissism, sociopaths and psychopaths are so demonized. For one thing those last two aren’t even medically recognized terms but people paint the slightest thing off as one of those 3. And even if the person is diagnosed with that, they’re not evil murderers or on the verge of it either.
hi just wanted to let you know those terms you used are considered slurs against people with ASPD. im not accusing you of anything bad or malicious. i agree with your comment 100% otherwise but i feel its good to be educated abt this sorta stuff so im just. letting you know its best not to use that type of terminology 😭 (better off calling it what its actually named; aspd / antisocial personality disorder)
The thing is dealing with someone with narcissistic tendencies is HARD. You don’t make things easy. My father for years never changed, never listened, even tho we would talk to him with the deepest respect. If you aren’t willing to change then you will be outcasted and pushed away. Although I hope for some they can make changes
of course, but its important to remember that its not a character flaw to *have* a disorder like that, the flaw is refusal to change, accept help, acknowledge wrongdoing, etc.
@@Jman0163 refusing to change, refusing to acknowledge wrongdoing, etc = NPD behavior. So you’re contradicting yourself when you say “NPD isn’t the problem, it’s ___list of things that define NPD___”
Im glad ive been finding more info about NPD and dismantling of the concept of demonizing "narcisists". It doesnt help anything or anyone to reject people wholely or demonize them, especially if they have a disorder. They can be helped with a simple diagnosis.
when i first left my abusive house i watched Dr. Ramanis videos to kinda figure out why those things happened to me, but after starting therapy it dawned on me that they were still people but just incapable of change, and at times because of their past experiences
Well, there are recovering narcissists, they tend to be on a spectrum, nameless narcissist is a good example. While personality disorders cannot be cured, they can at least modify their behavior, thus changing it.
Thank you. This is a confusing subject I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while now, because I've had people in my life who I've suspected might have narcissistic traits or even the full personality disorder, and the online discussion is so muddled. I don't want to hand-wave these individuals off as "evil", because that's over-simplifying and dehumanizing. They likely wound up with these patterns due to trauma, which isn't their fault. Yet it's also functionally useful to identify these troubling behaviors because people who get unwittingly close can get seriously hurt.
24:46 wow this seems VERY cruel to say about another person, treating people as party entertainment and then intentionally blocking them off from other forms of friendship? it's still exploitative if the people you're exploiting have forms of npd
Your right and that’s why I used the word toxic instead. At this point in my healing I don’t care about labeling a person because I’m sure I have been labeled narcissist from my actions. So when dealing with the people in my life I look at how they make me feel, how we communicate it’s each other, and if both people are willing to work the relationship. And I don’t care if your my mother or a friend, if I can’t be myself around you and trust you then why are we even in each other’s lives. . If I tell you that you did something to hurt me and you immediately bring up something in the past that I did to hurt you, I’m over it
Firstly, thank you so much for this video. It encapsulates all of my feelings about narcissism related content on the internet. I was raised by a narcissist and developed narcissistic traits because of it. In all honesty, I think the only reason I didn't develop the disorder in its fullest capacity is because I stumbled across the NPD criteria during quarantine, thought "wow that is literally me. I am becoming the people that hurt me" and tried to improve myself out of abject shame. I brought it up to my first therapist, who ended up saying I couldn't have NPD because I was self aware. Same woman tried to evaluate me for ASPD (she called it sociopathy lmao) when I told her my father says he's a sociopath. I quickly realized what she was doing and lied when she asked me questions. I was 16 and didn't want that life altering diagnosis. Fast forward, I'm an adult now and in a somewhat better spot mentally. Apparently (according to my current therapist), most of my narcissistic traits are actually caused by 1) CPTSD, 2) my neurodivergence (this directly impacts empathy), and 3) bipolar. My mania comes with grandiosity and sometimes grandiose delusions, it basically mimics NPD. When I'm in the worst of my depression, I feel absolutely nothing. I've unpacked my feelings of shame more, and feel less of a need to grandstand and brag. It's... weird. I remember in one therapy session, I realized all of my trauma (sexual, bullying, etc.) all caused me to feel one thing: completely inhuman. Worthless. I hid behind achievement to escape that. It nearly killed me. My healing journey, on the outside, almost looks like self destruction. My grades are getting worse, and my personality is becoming a bit more abrasive. But it's because I am not doing everything for praise and admiration anymore. It's just... me. My therapist even told me that as I've gotten more mentally healthy, I've become more cocky. But the key difference is, I don't feel the need to put others down. It's almost like that more positive form of narcissism I think. As it's essentially harmless. All of this rambling about myself to say, healing is a beautiful, messy, and tragic journey. To say someone is incapable of some form of healing because of a disorder is downright sinister. It causes so much pain. And like you said, the best case scenario for the narcissist is to seek help. It helps them and others.
You were right to have red flags about that therapist- idk if it was part of the criteria back when she was diagnosing you, but now you have to be 18+ to be diagnosed with ASPD. Also, good luck on your healing journey! :3
Dang, this was really interesting to read through. I've also noticed a few narcissistic traits within myself, but have been working to get better. I think a lot of the time, people might develop selfishness as a survival mechanism to get their needs met, which is unfortunate. I hope your healing journey continues to go well
Amazing video and what an excellent sentence/sentiment to end on!! Dehumanizing people with (assumed or actual) NPD makes the world less safe for everyone, including people who have been abused by people with (assumed or actual) NPD! Dehumanizing people is truly never the answer. Dehumanizing people is not liberatory praxis; it is a tool of fascism and gen-cide. Anyone with NPD who is reading this: I will continue to fight against people's anti-PD ableism that makes it so much harder for you to exist and access care, support, community, resources for healing/change, etc. You are not disposable!
Years ago, I read a detailed article in Oprah magazine on Narcissism and it was reflected my relationship with my Mom. The last line was, “…and God help you if this extreme form of narcissistic behavior is your mother.” Scared the shit out of me. But also gave me clarity.
Some international psychology groups are trying to get rid of NPD and BPD as terms and just using the umbrella term of personality disorder. These other terms cause a lot of stigma and does not help these individuals get help.
As a clinical psychologist I was pleasantly surprised, impressed and utterly entertained by this video. It was unexpectedly deep, broad and interesting to me. Thank you for making it. I'll look around the channel and see what else you have going on there.
21:55 Yes, thank you, I am here from this perspective as a survivor whose healing was held back for years by understanding that I am dealing with NPD, but not what that actually means. A disproportionate number of the times I've dealt with that they've been high-functioning narcissists, too, and the combination of "your abuser is an effective manipulator who is very motivated to convince you they are very smart" and "the narratives of narcissism you are exposed to ignore or de-emphasize its nature as a disability" causes real damage
using the term "narc abuse" is the same as saying "boys will be boys" about s/a because it takes the blame off the person and places it on some irrelevant trait about themselves
@@IchorOfTheManndrake Everyone can change. The fact that you don't believe that is really sad. I hope one day you can learn to see the potential in people again.
“Do you know how people know who they are without, like, asking somebody else.” That hit way to close to home. I don’t want to talk to much about it here but growing I went through a lot. I also has bad perfectionism and OCD. Several months ago I started making progress learning how to just accept my mistakes and do things even though I could fail, and it felt like I was making my own real choices for the first time. Just today I watched a video from healthygamer that talked about how motivation is different from choice. Feeling like you have to do something (like a chore) is different from just saying I have time today so let’s do this chore. I didn’t know who I was for most of my life. I think I really realized that during a psychedelic trip (also a few months ago) and have since been working on developing myself. Breaking down my beliefs and thinking about why I believe them. Why I want the things I want. And etc. It is like I am getting to know myself for the first time. I feel like it will still be a long road though, because I missed so much time. Basically what I am saying is it is possible to have no idea who you are. And so I can see why many would turn to others to find out who they are. Focus on superficial things like accomplishments and possessions and talents for who they are because that is all they know. That may have been all I knew. I don’t really want to acknowledge it though. I am happy I got where I am and I hope others can find there own paths to healing too. ❤
when the word narcissism started getting tossed around i was confused because werent people just talking about how mental health needed to be destigmatized and here they are talking about 'narcissists' like theyre some evil villian
these people arent 'narcissists' sometimes they are just assholes
Sadly most people have too loose a grasp of science and psychology to hear about something like narcissism without applying it to every disagreeable person they meet. That being said, it's also pretty common in a way. All these things, if there's like even 2% of people out there with it, that's 2 in 100 people. So over a lifetime you're pretty likely to run into them in some capacity. If they have a condition which predisposes them to abusive behaviour then I think that's important to know and important for people to be warned about. I suffered for years with someone who I think would likely be so serious as to be diagnosable. Personally I'm fine with calling her a bad person. She understands morality enough. She can turn it on and off based on what she needs. In the abstract I'm definitely on the side of getting these people help. And yes the moral panic around it is bad for everyone. But the abuse is real and highly destructive. That can't be allowed to pass by because we're favouring the perpetrator over the victim. Some things can't really avoid a stigma if they're factually dangerous.
@@IshtarNikebut the stigma is keeping people from getting the help that they need. How is someone expected to get help when everyone around them is constantly talking about how psychologists have proven that they’re inherently dangerous evil villains? Getting rid of the stigma is getting them help. It’s not excusing abuse, it is acknowledging that npd is not a predisposition to being abusive and that a disorder does not cause abuse. A person causes abuse.
When people talk about mental health, they only ever mean anxiety and depression. SOMETIMES adhd will get an honorable mention. Extremely occasionally.
@@IshtarNikethis
@@saltydinonuggies1841 People with NPD are diagnosed not because of the stigma, but because that they realize that none of their interpersonal relationships are working out and they lack self-awareness to understand why. The stigma comes after the diagnosis, when it’s revealed publicly and they’re ostracized for it. Personally, as someone who was narcissistically abused by my own roommate (this person has an NPD diagnosis and despite seeing 2 separate therapists for treatment, they still hurt me) and was mutilated in my sleep, as much as I want to understand them, my pain and suffering overwhelms any chance of doing so. I know people with covertly narcissistic traits who are too timid to abuse anyone, but because of my personal experiences, my empathy is limited. The most I can do is just pity that person and people like them because they grew up in an equally abusive household and it was just how they were taught to navigate life.
pro-tip: if you really want to differentiate between a vague concept of "narcissism" and NPD as a stigmatized personality disorger, then just say self-centered or egocentric! grab a thesaurus babes, its ok to just say someone who hurt you was being self-centered
Exactly. Or just an assh*ole (had to put the asterisk because when writing a comment saying the word sh*it got a "sure you want to post this comment? Maybe edit it" disclaimers 😒)
second this x1000. we can describe the people who hurt us in ways that don’t stigmatize mental health disorders
often people merely mean selfish, but that doesn't sound sparkly enough.
If they do the whole narcissist cycle, is it ok to call them a narcissist then? I got that cycle done to me 3 times by my ex till I caught on and dumped him.
Self-centered isn't enough to cover all the behaviors. There's future-faking, projection, gaslighting, absolute lack of empathy, manipulation and hoovering. Also the consistency and intensity of the behaviors just aren't there in the word "self-centered". You can just use the fitting term: narcissism.
Words like self-centered, selfish, abusive, cruel, sadistic, unempathetic, antagonistic, hostile - those are all sufficient to describe choices and behaviours without labelling anyone. We DO need to understand abuse and how it it's perpetrated, creating some kind of Big Bad isn't part of that
but this is unscientiffic - there are people who may engage in sometime-assholeary and then there is the SC*M who completely has no empathy and fcks up people for own gain. This is a cruical difference which is important to make in order to deal with them accordingly. it is dangerous to relativize it just because people may overuse the term and draw conclusions way to short..
...ok, but I'm still just gonna label my mother like this.
All of those are still synonyms for narcissism though
it helps with disambugation and destigmatization of NPD, so best for you to use it. @@bunnybird9342
@@bunnybird9342 They're literally not. You just want an excuse to hate mentally ill people
as someone with a lot of npd traits who is constantly told i'm doomed to be irredeemably evil no matter how hard i work to keep them in check, thank you.
Who is telling you this? It’s not uncommon for actually disordered people to project their traits onto us. If you are actively working on these “traits” you were told you have, you might not be a narcissist if you actually care to try.
I was raised around many personality disordered people. They do not care to change, even a little, unless they want something from you.
Always consider the source before you accept someone claiming you are something evil.
We're not evil, and we can do better. I started to get better when I found even One good support who stuck by me while also telling me when I was being a shit. It can be done. I promise. You're not doomed, and you're not evil. Be safe out there.
@@saturdayschild8535 Why try to frame this as if the only people demonizing stigmatized personality traits/behaviors are inevitably the "actual" ones with said behavior? Just because your were hurt by dysfunctional people doesn't mean that they were "disordered" in the sense that op is, or that they were clinically disordered at all. It's an uncomfortable truth, but completely "normal", empathetic people do horrific shit every day, including spout bigotry and beat down on the mentally ill. Which is what "personality disordered people" are. Cluster b disorders are more than likely trauma-born disorders, manifestations of C-ptsd. A lot of academics have been leaning towards this idea for a while. The people who meet the criteria for these conditions have almost always been abused and/or exposed to a continuously hostile environment.
I know when emotions we've been really hurt it can feel good and even safe to rely on a scapegoat. If certain behaviors are the result of people being "disordered", then you just have to avoid those wrong people and everything will be fine. This kind of thought process only leads to people getting hurt, and even more people not getting the help they need to heal. Instead of assuming that op couldn't possibly be like what they say they are, maybe consider that your conception of narcissists is narrow, informed only by personal anecdotes, and could use some fresh perspective. I'd lurk around the npd subreddit and other spaces used by and for people with NPD. Take in their experiences, see the diverse spectrum of people with this condition and what it's like to live in their shoes. You might find they're more like you than you think. We are all only human.
@@ItsAllNunya 7 years alone. Still looking for one but of support...
@@ItsAllNunyathat’s the thing about the term being thrown around so casually and sometimes it seems, used as an excuse to detach from anyone and everyone who causes the slightest inconvenience. In that kind of environment no one gets support and everyone is devalued, which are the very things that cause the disorder in the first place. In addition, people with the disorder themselves might feel more empowered to project onto others and excuse themselves from accountability. Obviously people need to be informed about what abuse looks like and know that they shouldn’t have to put up with it, but in general, we as a society need more understanding and stronger communities, and I feel that this trend has mainly had the opposite effect.
methinks that one of the other side effects of pairing a specific pathology with abuse ala "narcissistic abuse" is that it keeps people from recognizing abusive tendencies within themselves. you are not immune to becoming an abuser, but that is not a death sentence. othering abusive behaviors as something you couldn't possibly do because you don't share the pathology is legitimately harmful
so true. works to separate from “the other”
YOU PUT IT IN WORDS!
Thank you so much for this
That’s exactly it. It’s easier to dehumanize people who you view as irredeemable than to acknowledge that you share your humanity with them and are capable of doing things just as awful.
I think genuinely for a lot of people they're just doing it as a trauma response, black and white thinking. The need to try and establish some irrefutable objective categorisation system that validates your feelings of being hurt and condemns the person who hurt you in such a way that there can be no doubt cast about the roles you both played and who was the victim, it's an understandable way to react to a history of being gaslit, ignored, dismissed, and invalidated in a thousand different ways, specifically intended to confuse and overwhelm you so that you would be unable to effectively fight back. Being very harsh and black and white is a misguided attempt to set boundaries while still playing by the rules set by your abuser, and while it's a relatively natural and understandable response, it is not a healthy one. Traumatised people trying to help other traumatised people before they help themselves just leads to worse outcomes for everybody, because you can't teach someone how to be healthy if you yourself still don't know. It's a stage of healing that I think people do need to go through, but when they share it publicly and build communities around it they can easily get stuck there and cease making progress.
Pathologizing abuse not only stigmatizes mental illness and personality disorders, it makes people think "well, I'M not mental ill, i could never abuse someone!" This is coming from someone who was horrifically emotionally, physically, and on a few occasions, borderline sexually abused by their mother, who has a diagnosed personality disorder and is autistic. Guess what? I have the same personality disorder she has, and i might also be autistic. I make the choice not to harm those close to me. Abusing others is a choice, not a personality trait. And people who abuse and never admit it aren't necessarily incapable of self reflection. Humans just hate admitting we're wrong.
ahem EXACTLY
It's the same old tired tropes of villainizing the "other" to prop oneself up, as saying that they're "better" or even "special" when really neurotypical people can be horrible people too. Humans are humans and someone humans are horrible people, no pathologizing needed
Thank you!
I’ve literally seen people say that mentally ill people don’t harm others, people with personality disorders harm others. Like, way to both demonize personality disorders and completely ignore the fact that some people lash out as a result of their own pain.
@@larad9180 and like neurodivergent folks are more likely to BE victims of abuse then be perpetrators of it. Now yes neurodivergent folks are humans like everyone else and anyone who happens to be neurodivergent who does f*ucked up things should be held accountable for their actions however demonizing whole communities is definitely not the way to go. It's just another form of stigma as well as respectability politics
@@larad9180 Wouldn’t a personality disorder be considered a mental illness anyway?
Hey remember a decade ago when people armchaired autism and treated neurodivergent people as inhuman because of the idea that they had "reduced or lack of empathy"?
Anyways. This comment section is gonna be a fascinating artifact to look at in 2034.
It tends to be the same shit. Especially with other Neurodivergent folks demonizing folks with NPD or even other Cluster B disorders basically forms a hierarchy of the "good" and "bad" kind of neurodivergent
Fascinating because people are now waking up to narcissists and in 10 years it’ll be taught about in schools so people don’t get suckered into being with narcs anymore 🫡🇺🇸🇬🇧
@@JT0007 I hope you find the self-awareness you desperately need.
@@JT0007what the fuck are you talking about
Logigal Falkacy! No comparrison to autism and NPD. Clinical NPD is the uncontrollable addiction to being emotionally abusive to those closest to them. Intellectuslly and morally dishonest to relativise being EXTREMELY EMOTIONSLLY ABUSIVE where it is pathological and harms the mental health of loved ones often causing COTSD not unlike domestic violence victims. Clinical experts have studied NPD individuals for decades, so false analogy to “armchair diagnoses” or misdiagnosis of Autism.
Shout it out for the people in the back: people with personality disorders are struggling too. There’s no such thing as a perfect victim or villain. You don’t need to be a narcissist to abuse someone and not all narcissists are abusers. Abuse is abuse. Struggle is struggle.
This. Not all ppl with NPD are abusers and not all abusers have NPD. It's so much more nuanced.
Here here!! Cheers to the understanding of context, complexity, and the fallacy of dichotomy.
@@ciaraskeleton do you have any evidence for this?
@@enricopucci1236What evidence would you be looking for? Or is your mind already made up?
@@ciaraskeleton Agreed! People often forget that society itself plays a role in abuse, like in the past when being a controlling husband was normalized. Not all of those people could've had a disorder. Hell, what's considered a disorder is also dependent on what a society thinks is normal- even the DSM5 has certain societal exceptions that disqualify someone from having that disorder.
What I'd really like to see in everyday speech is describing people as manipulative, as bullies, as abusive, as *doing specific things wrong* that *anyone might do regardless of mental health.* Is my mom a narcissist? That's hard to say. Did my mom do something manipulative? That's much easier to evaluate and gives you more practical information tbh.
In cases of singular events, this is fine, but when it's concerning a lengthy relationship, like spouse or parent, the word narcissistic is really valuable, descriptively speaking.
@@Daiwie44Not really? Why are y'all so insistent on being able to use a real disorder that many trauma survivors struggle with as a pejorative? Do their experiences matter less than yours? The sheer entitlement and lack of care on display here is staggering.
@@CrystalBulgerPlease refrain from commenting unless you have something constructive to say. This kind of targeted emotional attack speaks volumes about the kind of person you are.
@@juliagoetia sorry I left that reply on the wrong comment
@@juliagoetia lol yall dont seem to understand that itd be only few of ppl with ndp would get diagnosed bcz their ego would be hurt. Yall dont understand the pain of having a narcissist in your life.
One thing that's perhaps important to clarify, is that an NPD diagnosis (just like all other personality diagnoses) isn't just about checking those nine boxes in the DSM. First of all, once your actual evaluation gets started, there's a whole lot more boxes to check, but more importantly: the purpose of a diagnosis is to help patients cope with and possibly alleviate difficulties and suffering caused to them personally and/or to people around them. This is not just what makes the diagnosis functional; it's literally what the diagnosis is for.
The diagnosis does effectively mean that NPD traits are considered undesireable, at least in a clinical sense, but that's not the same thing as categorizing someone as a "bad person." On the contrary, an NPD diagnosis helps us think of the patient as suffering the consequences of an adverse environment, among other things. If anything, this attempts to replace the overly simplistic idea that they're simply a "bad person."
But I definitely agree that the dehumanizing pop psych gone haywire online is a problem.
Exactly this! I feel like I'm constantly clarifying to people what a diagnosis is in a clinical sense. People really overly equate them to a personality test rather than a tool to help treat people who are experiencing very real, difficulties that affect their ability to function.
aaa
i agree with everything you said except the last sentence, we wouldn't have crazy people without pop psych
The "average" person isn't a clinician so the chances for misinterpreting information to confirm their own bias is higher. I wonder if changing the language from "narcissist" which carries a negative connotation to something neutral might deter the "average" person from misinterpretation?
No real malignant narcissist. Will ever EVER get diagnosed. The true psychopaths will never be caught.
Narcissistics don't actually love themselves. They hate themselves so much its all they can think about
Which is also how they are most vulnerable to abuse.
@@MPR2007they can be both, just like any other person
@@MPR2007watch the video? wut ur doing is quite literally what is trying to broken down. conflating "the abuser " with "the narcissist" is not helpful.
Damn right, I definitely do hate myself
And they’re worried that everyone else will some day see that and abandon them. In many, many cases it’s self-loathing.
Ppl really be blaming people with personality disorders for everything wrong with the world like neurotypical people are incapable of being assholes. Sometimes people are just mean!!! And the reason isn't related to them being a "dark empath" or whatever, it's just them choosing to be mean
Yeah, you can call an abuser an abuser without diagnosing them.
@@jazmineraymond7495im screenshotting this for later reference cuz you hit the nail on the head
People with certain personality disorders are extra dangerous to be in positions of power because of their lack of empathy. They will sabotage someone to get what they want with no remorse. It's important to be on the lookout for this, because you can not treat them like you would other people.
Actually I would say that. I think being evil is itself a personality disorder. It is not normal almost definitionally, and it absolutely causes problems for the person and society at large, and that's how we have come to define mental illnesses.
If you take that as a personal attack, that's your problem for being overly sensitive and picking up criticism of yourself where none was actually being given.
And if you interpret this as saying "if you have a mental illness, you're evil" then you need to go back to school until you figure out basic logic, because all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
@@Nebukanezzer a disorder is a deviation from the norm.Most people aren’t perfect but the average person isn’t evil either.However,we are all capable of evil deeds and that extends to whole nations at a time.People can be made to have evil beliefs and therefore act evil.Does this mean they have disorders?Or is it just another way to utilise traits humans already have,even if unethically?Was something medically wrong with people who burned witches and had slaves?Those behaviours WERE the norm back then.So all those examples of evil are hard to classify as a disorder since then the very fragile state of being “good” hardly looks like the base of human nature
The worst part of this trend in my opinion is that it prevents actual diagnosed narcissists with mental health issues from seeking treatment and recovery. No one wants to be diagnosed with “bad person personality disorder,” and then once you are, you’re going to be subjected to unending discrimination and hostility on account of the stigmatized label. This in turn pushes the diagnosed narcissist back into cycles of self-hatred and insecurity, making it even more difficult for them to overcome their harmful narcissistic behaviors
Yeah
I like to talk about that with people, the reason you have to forgive (not forget but forgive- to accept what happened and move on) is because you will become their trap and prevent them from growing.
Same thing with unconditional love: uncondictional love isn't letting them do whatever they please. At a point leaving is loving because it makes a. Makes them have to handle themselves b. Makes them face that they're not living a good life and the have to grow to get a good life.
Someone with genuine NPD is not going to change whether or not thet are stigmatized. That is why narcissism is so insidious. We all have narcissistic traits, and not all narcissistic traits are negative. But someone with actual NPD is not a victim and they are not a poor little thing who deserves love and compassion. If you show compassion to a genuine narcissist they will see you as a sucker and proceed to fuck around with you if they consider you useful.
A genuine narcissist is protected by their disorder and will never feel self-hatred because nothing they say or do is their fault. Anyone who gives them any form of attention is seen as a source of energy for them. They do not care about good or bad attention. As long as they get attention they win and they will never learn. Never change. Therapy will be nothing more than a class in how they can manipulate other people better.
There aren't that many true narcissists in society (thank god) but there are many people with strong narcissistic traits who are mistaken for real narcissists and those people can be helped and rehabilitated with the right encouragement and motivation.
A true narcissist is a lost cause. I genuinely don't think people realize how absolutely and fundamentally divorced real narcissists are from empathy and personal growth. Unless you have met one and lived with one, I don't think you realize what they are.
Yes, they are technically human, but as someone who lived with a real life Narcissist once, I would categorize their humanity as a mask for the void underneath. I have seen what is underneath one such mask and I never want to see that ever again. Because that shit was not human.
@@plantemorhey! Dx’d narcissist here! I have spent my years of my life trying to become a better version of myself, most people don’t even notice my narcissistic behaviors anymore because I’ve gotten a better reign on the trauma that led to my disorder (neglect and sexual abuse). What you’re saying is the reason why for a long time I ignored my diagnosis and acted like it couldn’t be true. Because ‘narcissists are all abusive and subhuman, and I am not subhuman or abusive, so I cannot be a narcissist’. The reality is, NPD, like all mental disorders, has a variety of presentations. Not everyone with NPD is going to be an abuser, just like how not everyone with ADHD, or autism, or depression, or any other disorder are also not categorically evil. The stigma is so dangerous because a lot of us developed our ego as a defense for some way we had been humiliated in the past. After being abused sexually for years, I had an impaired sense of empathy and I was aloof and egotistical to protect myself from the shame that came with losing my virginity at nine. The stigma opens up a wound of shame that is very hard to acknowledge without professional help, but we can’t get professional help without acknowledging that we have the ‘evil disorder’. I might not be articulating this well, i apologize if I’m not.
@plantemor good job proving the video's point by dehumanizing individuals with NPD. "Because that shit was not human"??? Seriously??? I've heard that same shit for the other cluster B personality disorders, and no fucking wonder individuals who have them don't get the help they need because they're so stigmatized in and out of the field of psychology. As someone who used to have Borderline Personality Disorder (I no longer fit the diagnostic criteria due to years of working on myself and having wonderful support), I have immense empathy for individuals with NPD.
Let's look at the DSM-V, shall we? And no, I'm not about to list the dx criteria, I'm moving onto a very important section everyone seems to fucking forget when it comes to ALL disorders: Associated Features Supporting Diagnosis. The first sentence states, "Vulnerability in self-esteem makes individuals with narcissistic personality disorder very sensitive to 'injury' from criticism or defeat' (American Psychiatric Association, 2013, p. 671). Now, why is this? Have you ever asked yourself that? No, of course not, because those with NPD apparently have nothing but a void beneath a human mask according to you. Let's move on to the next sentence, "Although they may not show it outwardly, criticism may haunt these individuals and may leave them feeling humiliated, degraded, hollow, and empty" (American Psychiatric Association, 2013, p. 671). This makes me curious as to what happened to individuals with NPD when they were children to make them so sensitive to this. There are loads of research pointing to environmental causes of personality disorders (mind you, there is some argument to biological causes, such as genes making one more susceptible to developing a PD). What happened to make a person need to put up a wall of grandiose sense of self to hide/protect the insecure person (that "void" you mentioned so sweetly earlier) from the world? Do you really think a person with NPD wants to keep up that exhausting frame of mind forever?
This isn't to say you have to forgive anyone who made your life miserable simply due to them having mental illness. That's bullshit. This is to say not to demonize an entire group of individuals (the DSM-IV measured that 0-6.2% of the population has NPD) based on anecdotal experience and pop-psychology videos online.
Not really expecting anyone to read my long ass and disorganized rant. I'm just screaming into the woods my frustrations regarding how people treat individuals with cluster b personality disorders. ✌️
I once asked in the comments of this psychologist's comment something like "What should I do if I see those traits in myself? How do I stop?" And his answer was very hopeless, almost saying narcissists are just unfixable.
That attitude is scary. Specially considering how the people I see being accused or that or manipulation and so on, are usually neurodivergent and have other issues.
If all the experts have the same opinion and survivors keep telling you the same thing maybe you should listen.
@@Chelaxim I am just wondering if you watched the video.
Also, if I asked a therapist for help and they said I'm not fixable, what would listening to them mean?
@@PaniACoCo I can relate i feel bad for people with NPD cause for me having BPD I was actually told that I could treat them with DBT, medications, CBT etc. if you actually are wondering how to help it i'd actually suggest treatments for BPD maybe that might help as BPD can have a mix of traits from NPD and ASD and I feel a lot of it would help. I would also suggest focusing on your actions rather than your intentions. Imo it's okay if you are doing something good for selfish reasons cause you're doing something good.
My tips would be Journal a lot, look up DBT and CBT journaling techniques, write down what symptoms you are worried about and what causes or "triggers" them, write down the accessions and see if they really are you being manipulative or you being blamed. I also agree to some degree to the comment in that sometimes you have to take critique of others opinions on where to fix but sometimes people aren't aware that they can't have toxic traits too and just blame personality disorders cause personality disorders have some bad traits. Oh, I also suggest looking up healthy narcissism too and remind yourself of your good traits too.
In my opinion you can't be fully cured of your personality disorder but if your brain wired to develop NPD I believe you can unwire it in a way that can make you healtier. If NPD's are unfixable that BPD's like me are unfixable too apparently which I disagree. And the fact you are aware to ask this makes me believe you can be fixed in a way.
@@TravellerZasha sorry for the way I phrased it. I'm pretty sure I don't have that, just adhd and depression. I worded it that way then because I wanted to see the response. I also believe that actions matter more than what you feel.
@@Chelaxim but that's the thing, there is no consensus and our understanding of this personality order is changing. I don't care about the victims insofar on how to treat people with said disorder.
it's a bit ironic how some people will say "narcissists take advantage of other people!" and then turn around and make thousands of dollars off of demonizing people with mental health conditions
Yes. They can.
It's “an eye for an eye” after all
Exactly it's so contradicting she wants to make money off of these so called "demons" when she no better she wasting her life and energy on these people anyways 😂
@@shinekitten7669 😂🤣😂 you keep telling yourself that victimizing demons makes them less dangerous. 🤡
That's not ironic. That's a delusion you are having. People are NOT really making thousand of dollars doing JUST that. Narcissism is NOT a mental health condition. Is a mental health threat. Narcissists make other people ... themselves! Ffs.
I have bipolar I and became genuinely distressed at one point because of how many boxes I ticked in the covert category when depressed and communal when I'm manic. I became legitimately concerned that I'd duped people into thinking I have a "good" mental illness when I actually had a "bad" one, for some reason characterising NPD as "bad" specifically because of damaging and superficial content.
You are not bad for your neurodivergency and you didn't trick anyone. people are bad by choice, neurodivergency is not something you can choose
@@Mycorrhiza i would argue those choices are also not entirely in their control
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS.
I've been saying for years that NPD is not "evil person disease" but I always got hit with downvotes and people telling me I'm either a narcisstic abuser myself or an apologist or both. It's completely absurd. Thank you so much.
Exactly this. That's why im so happy to see someone with a bit of a platform talk about this issue.
Its so fucking annoying when people write off "being abusive" as a general symptom for all cluster B disorders. Like, do you seriously think you're morally superior for isolating mentally ill folk because "thats the way they are"? History teaches that such prejustices led to literal genocides. You aren't being good, you are just an ableist with a closed mind
well i followed an instagram content creator diagnosed with NPD and BPD, they used to be those "empaths" who see narcissists as the "big ol meanie boogeyman". Only to discover they are narcissistic too, so all I can say is, these "empaths" very anti NPD should consider if they are secretly narcissists also in denial
@@beepboop2842yes I wonder that too because it seems more likely that they see narcissistic as something that their parents were and what caused them to be abusive so they cope by demonizing it, and thus distancing themselves from them neatly seperating into 'evil' and 'good' instead of seeing it as a choice, because the idea that they could be like their parents is too scary
i have bpd so i empathize with people with other cluster B personality disorders and i feel like the internet has been trying to gaslight me back into black and white thinking of "this person bad". when i saw this video in my recommendations i got SO happy, how are we still demonizing people so much? people have so little empathy towards those who they THINK have none
I wish all these creators would just start talking about abuse without the psychological labels. Because anyone of any neurotype can be abusive and the signs of abuse (DARVOS) can be picked up regardless of the specific neurotypes involved. It would save a lot of abilism and also help more people.
are you a psychiatrist?
Some do
Some categorise
Others believe its a sliding scale from a good person to pure evil
Pancakes and waffles are both breakfast foods that you pour syrup on top of, but they don’t have the same name. Why aren’t waffles and pancakes labeled the same? Why don’t we JUST call them them both breakfast food? It’s because there’s slight subtle differences between the two. Being specific about where abuse is coming from and why it’s happening is not a bad thing. If a narcissist is abusing you because they have NPD then that very much is narcissistic abuse.
@@josh___something yes it does matter to be specific because the specific type of abuse is specifically coming from the NPD traits and symptoms. Anyone who says otherwise hasn’t done enough research on NPD and what it looks like and how it affects the people around them. If you wanted to specifically label abuse from other types of disorders, then you could do that as well. No one is stopping you. But to compare NPD to things like BPD just doesn’t make much sense because they’re too completely different disorders on a completely different playing field. Whereas if a BPD person harms you, it’s not because they lack empathy and it’s not because they genuinely want to harm you and derive joy from it, it’s a survival mechanism and a trauma response. Just because NPD also derives from trauma doesn’t mean that the core root of why these symptoms are happening are the same. There is a mental disconnect in these people and similarly in antisocial personality disorder, psychopathy, and sociopathy. I personally don’t even think BPD should be categorized as a personality disorder. NPD, antisocial personality disorder, psychopathy, and sociopathy are completely different than BPD. You have to look at the specific nuance parts about each disorder and why they are the way they are and how they look in real life. The root cause of why they act the way they do. Being specific about the type of abuse absolutely does help. It helped me a lot. It helped me to know why I was being treated the way I was and where it was coming from. If I had just labeled it as regular abuse I probably wouldn’t have understood it the way that I understand it now. I probably would’ve just written it off like I had my entire life anytime. I experienced abuse and thinking that it was no big deal and I just needed to get over it. Being able to be specific has given me a greater understanding to now protect myself from people like that in the future and notice the patterns when they happen again. The abuse that I experienced from my mother because of her bipolar disorder was completely different than the abuse that I experienced from my father because of his narcissistic tendencies. They are two completely different types of abuse. My father’s abuse was much more insidious. I can look back at what my mom did to me and realize that it was because she was unmedicated and because she didn’t know how too regulate her anger. My father on the other hand, his abuse came from the fact that he genuinely didn’t see me as human. He derived pleasure out of me being his supply.
@@Xplreli BPD isn't like sooooo different. at times when BPD split, they can show lack of empathy and lash out. BPD are very impulsive similar to ASPD. BPD is a personality disorder because it fits under the cluster b diagnosis of being a dramatic, unpredictable and emotionally intense mental disorder.
When doing research into my own neurological health, I realized a ton of 'narcissistic' traits are easily explained by traumatized low/mid-support needs ASD. Or are just traits neurotypicals just find annoying. Stinks of the adult form of 'Oppositional Defiant Disorder' (aka, 'i-give-up-on-trying-to-understand-this-child's-experience' disorder).
Edit: YES, I love how you pointed out that the literal criteria are assuming intent of actions one might be powerless to control. Any disorder being marked by 'unwillingness' rather than 'inability' is ridiculous.
"'i-give-up-on-trying-to-understand-this-child's-experience' disorder"
yes!! ODD is used to excuse the adults in children's lives from actually listening and being curious
That last sentence goes hard
In older, undiagnosed autistic generations, where self-denial and strict masking could lead to a fake / Potemkin persona, pushing that model of coping on one's undiagnosed autistic children could create generational trauma. Depending on the degree and intensity of the demands on the child to mask, it could become outright child abuse, though I am sure there were milder cases, too, and some elder autistics can do the work of discovering and accepting themselves and apologizing and making amends to their children, for example, when their grandchildren get diagnosed.
My father was most likely ADHD+SAD, my mother most likely autistic. I, a tail-end boomer, was both beaten, berated and pestered at home and in school for behaving "wrong" (toe-walking, failing eye-contact, food aversions, refusing "neat and girly enough" clothes, being "weird," etc.). I got diagnosed AutDHD after I turned 40. My firstborn is also AutDHD, my youngest ADHD.
My father thankfully died young. My mother reacted with anger when I told her that we had started to seek a diagnosis for the firstborn and myself. When both our ADHD diagnoses were established, I told her about them. She said "Aha," changed the subject and never mentioned ADHD or neurodivergence again. So when the youngest kid got their ADHD dx and we got our autism dxs a few years later, I didn't even bother to mention them.
Both my parents were (and my mother still is) the most deeply unhappy and unauthentic people that I have ever known. They have both always been in strict denial about that anything concerning themselves or their offspring could be unusual or not "normal." Both were certainly traumatized as children, and they were also traumatizing to have as parents.
Sometimes it's a both - and dynamic. For an abused, neglected and/or unaccepted child it doesn't really matter what lies behind the ill treatment. Personally, I don't care if the abuse was "narcissistic" or "sadistic" or "sociopathic" or something else - the operative term was abuse. I have rather been focusing on healing since 1990.
Same! I used to worry I was a narcissist, particularly when I was being emotionally abused because I'd be accused of many "narcissistic" traits and behaviors, and genuinely was concerned what if they're right? After I got diagnosed ASD it all made sense.
Tbh, I was pretty pissed when I got diagnosed. Like so many people made me feel SO bad about myself and I worried so much about whether I was an inherently bad person but the whole time I was just a little brain-weird and getting judged so hard for it. Messed up.
Misdiagnosys exists. That doesn't mean narcissism isn't a real thing.
Narcissism is rooted deep within wounded insecurities they likely refused to address nor aware of. I'm glad to watch a video like this which paints a narcissist in a human light.
While many people are aware of the brokenness of a narcissist that does not obligate us to be in contact with them.
I so appreciate you making this video. I’m a licensed therapist who is diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. One of my biggest sources of distress in life has come from coming to terms being labeled BPD…and that is specifically because for my entire career I have heard what my therapist peers say about people with personality disorders “behind the scenes” Kylee really hit the nail on the head when she shared why the stigma is so unnecessarily difficult to navigate.
I feel the most important thing you said was in your voiceover note about how people who have been abused don’t owe their abusers anything, and deserve help and safety. And with that said, trying to paint people with broad brushes and limit them down to a label strips them of their humanity- and that’s not making any of us safer.
I especially appreciate you being willing to tackle such a potential backlash inducing topic in such a responsible and nuanced way- in a way more responsible way than I see most content creators licensed to practice therapy exercising. That is notable…
Thank you! ❤
If you're alright with commenting on it- I'm not a therapist, but I've observed BPD seems disproportionately diagnosed in young, neurodivergent women who've experienced early life trauma. *Every* person I know with a BPD diagnosis was later diagnosed with ADHD/autism and PTSD/CPTSD. Their BPD diagnoses prevented them accessing timely, appropriate treatment, often for years.
I guess my question is, as an actual therapist do you think BPD is a distinct phenomenon? Is there a possibility BPD is just kind of "profiling" patients who express trauma in a specific way? And if not, what's the difference?
@@e.s.r5809 i only study psychology but i do have both adhd and bpd and I've been wondering that ever since getting my diagnoses. a lot of the symptoms overlap, although one big thing for me specifically is an intense fear of abandonment that, in my opinion, is 100% bpd. this is just anecdotal, but the women with adhd that i know can't really relate to the intensity of some of my emotions, particularly anger and euphoria. and on ADHD meds, i still have my silly goofy dramatic bpd brain, just less tired and disorganized.
@@e.s.r5809 also, i recommend looking into the new classification of personality disorders in ICD-11. there are no more distinct personality disorders, rather a spectrum with traits and varying intensity, but they still add an additional "borderline pattern specifier" because of how specific this set of symptoms tends to be
What sucks is that narcissism and antisocial personalities can be hard to differentiate in our materialistic society, as such society does not value humanity at all.
Period.
What is the point of saying "materialistic society" in this context. It adds no extra meaning and using such a strange buzzword like this sounds pretentious
@@derpkipper
Because "materialistic" is a quality of society. Society doesn't have to be materialistic, it's just an emphasized quality.
"Materialistic" is an adjective. You put that before a noun and it describes something. I have not seen the buzzwords "materialistic society" anywhere else, have you? If you are going to bat for semantics, maybe think a little before you post.
@@derpkipper You have lived your entire life in the US, right?
Especially under the capitalist and colonialist frameworks that sees human lives as labor to make profit off of
Thanks for having me in the video! I'm just sitting down to watch it now, but I'm looking forward to it. I love that more creators are starting to show a more humanizing lens to NPD, opposed to demonizing it.
luv ur tiktoks!! was literally so excited to see u as a guest in this vid
Yoooooo! Your videos are great!!!
I have OCD and before I was diagnosed I would watch dr ramani videos and obsess over whether or not I was a DIRTY NARCISSIST. I would try as hard as I could to be an “empath” and it led to so many abusive relationships in my life. Striving to be an “empath” is so bad for u
I had to unsubscribe from her cause all I would do was watch her and go… i am disgusting how do I fix this i must count to 8 several times right now
The only reason i dont do this now is bc 150mg luvox and 200mg magnesium lets go
@@janeparker9663 glad you are now at a better place!
i've said this in another thread but the "empath" thing is what makes me uncomfortable the most about the npd content industrial complex
like i want to set aside the rest of the conversation and point out that. like. when i say that i'm not here to dunk on "empaths" for buying into the narrative of being an "empath"
i want to make the point that the level to which there is a very clear pipeline around "is insecure about being a narcissist/has trauma around narcissists" that leads directly to a pseudoscientific archetype that often leads people to overestimate their own empathy in an emotional-intuition/theory of mind way while leading them to obsess over hating narcissists has elements of a high-control-group narrative - specific target demographic, in-group and out-group, instilling its members with idealized values and behaviors, etc...
fingerpointing at something like that and calling it a "cult" isn't constructive, but i'm really glad you got out, fuck
i strongly suspect i have OCD or at the very least obsessive thoughts, and i have fallen into this same trap. it's so horrible
being scared i was this evil narcissist after watching all this content is what kept me from being honest with doctors and getting my bipolar diagnosis for so long
FINALLY SOMEONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE NARCISSISM CONTENT INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
FINALLY
i wish people would just talk about the cycle of abuse without dressing it up in terms they barely understand. it can hurt victims and their ability to accurately comprehend what is going on around them, because the buzzwords around narcissism are often sold as universally applicable truths, and they _are_ really comforting and cathartic for someone to hear - but they're not universal to every situation. they're a band-aid solution, not a true one.
So necessary. Absolutely.
There are a few other creators who have talked about it too
There are some other great channels with nuanced views on this subject. Tim Fletcher and heal NPD are just two channels that offer more nuance.
Psychology has always been coopted by the unwashed masses for 1. coping with difficult situations and people, 2. justifying their shitty behaviors
I haven't finished the video yet, but im someone who genuinely for real is a narcissist and its always so disheartening to see people online treating us like monsters. Its really nice to see someone talking that for a change
yeah, i dont have npd but my dad does and the stigma around it makes me feel so, horrible, so i cant imagine how it makes my dad feel
That headline, "Therapy speak is everywhere, but it may make us less empathetic" was jarring but resonated with something I've noticed in myself & others: a inclination to categorizing people, either for how they might hurt us, help us, even be useful to us, etc. And given practice, it becomes habitual to the point of making judgments at a glance, typically as a defensive tactic.
I dunno. Just something that jumped out at me 😅
This was great btw
Humans are gonna human.
I think it's wonderful *in theory* that many immensely-helpful psychological concepts have bled into the general consciousness and that people feel more comfortable disclosing their struggles and diagnoses---but, in practice, this has resulted in some people misusing or abusing these terms and ideas and others taking cruel advantage of other people's sympathy, compassion, and desire to understand.
It's because people are using it to pathologize assholes instead of using it to help people overcome their issues. And that's the biggest thing for me. If you're not a therapist, don't pathologize people if you don't want them to be better. If all you want is just to label someone as bad, don't pathologize them.
One of my best friends is a narcissist. He's written a book about it, multiple even. Dude's cousin is one of the most famous people in my country, which is why I presume he was bullied in the small village they both came from.
Great guy. A positive force in the community, tries his best to encourage others and to make life epic. Sometimes he takes pride in "knowing the best for others", for example if I have a concern, he may voice it out for louder, or tells me as a younger friend that he'll protect me. On occasion he gets snappy or mean, but calms down if you seem more rational.
He keeps getting caught in his grandiose fantasies only to get severely depressed when they don't come true. Highly worrysome, tbh. He will never grow up to be as famous as the most famous guy in the entire country, and I think he hasn't fully admitted it. That's why he always tries through new projects or telling the press a different story, which are all quite obvious if you know him.
On occasions, he comes off as childish in his creative work and essays. He pretends to be big and powerful and edgy, but sometimes it's like a child throwing a tantrum. Sometimes he texts me all depressed because I have more followers than him.
It isn't his fault, but it breaks my heart. I've had to tell multiple people to keep an eye on him just so he keeps alive. I love him and wish the best for his development and recovery, and the same also for his cousin, whose last album sucked btw.
books??? that’s so cool.. and i’d imagine having a super famous family member would make even a non npd person feel insecure from time to time honestly
@@juliadrake207 Definitely. I myself have had a relative be a successful singer decades back. It alters everything, if not universally then in that specific area. Luckily we don't share a last name.
I can understand why Dr. Ramani’s videos are so popular. I once had a friend breakup that went horribly bad. I set a hard boundary while he was treating me badly, and he suddenly unleashed all these insults on me that had to do with a lot of personal things I was going through. It was clear that whenever I talked about any personal pain or hardships, he stocked those things up to use them to hurt me. It didn’t hurt me, I was too freaked out to be hurt. It seemed like a crazy thing to do. I told another friend that I couldn’t understand why someone would do that, and he said “oh well, he’s a narcissist.” After that, if I met someone who manipulated people by pushing at their weaknesses or insecurities, I would say “oh that’s a narcissist” and stay away from them.
But eventually, through working on my boundaries in therapy, I realized that the reason to stay away from those people wasn’t because of some diagnosis that I made up. It was because they were jerks. I don’t like people who are manipulative, and I shouldn’t hang out with people I don’t like. I think Dr. Ramani is successful in part because it’s so much easier to say “stay away from this person because they are evil” than it is to examine why you get into bad relationships.
But also, this doesn’t mean anyone should flip this and start diagnosing people who follow Dr. Ramani as people with boundaries issues. Sometimes people get into a bad relationship for no other reason than bad luck, not everything is a pathological issue.
I've also watched a bit of Dr. Ramani, and she's often stated that narcissism isn't a diagnosis. It's the same as calling them jerks. You didn't make up a diagnosis, you made an evaluation of their personality, which you also do when you call them a jerk.
Finding out why you get into bad relationships is not something you can do through a video, but recognizing narcissistic traits is.
Also, the word narcissist is valuable cuz it's more descriptive of the manipulative aspects of people.
I don't know, manipulation sounds like a pretty evil enough description to send the message *without* demonizing mental illness to me
@@Mycorrhiza no, manipulation is a learned behaviour that people use daily. it's not good or bad, the intentions behind it can be dubious though
Something I've been saying for a while is "Everyone's a mental health advocate until a Cluster B is around". Half the comments here are chomping at the bit to prove me right.
Thanks. I haven’t heard of ‘clusters’ before. More to learn, thank you.
I don’t get it. Can you explain please?
@@keifkeith Cluster B is a group of official diagnoses considered personality disorders, including narcissistic personality disorder, antisocial personality disorder, and borderline personality disorder.
People tend to call themselves advocates, but demonize cluster b diagnoses as ‘inhuman’
Because the things that they do are indeed inhuman.
@@snapdragonslair
@@freelix-44it sounds like you're dehumanizing them?
As someone who is currently planning on going down a path of becoming a Cluster-B PD's specializing therapist I really respect the fact that you made this video. Peer Reviewed studies found that a majority of psychologists will not work with any Cluster B's, and further more Cluster Bs are more likely to not get help due to the demonization of these disorders.
You're about to find out why xD
Yeah, narcissism is a particularly tragic disorder because the only way to help a person manage it is for them to buy into the process - it’s impossible to give effective therapy against someone’s will or even just without their good-faith engagement. And the disorder makes it unlikely they’ll buy in in the first place. To all those that are really putting in the time for self reflection, you are loved and your efforts are appreciated. But a lot of narcissists will end up using therapy as another weapon. I just wish there was a better way to help.
Why are people so against cluster-b being healed, it's literally helping everyone! Don't throw around 'most aren't willing to get help' after this person literally said that most therapists, the people who can actually help them, refuse to help.
Our dad has NPD and he was extremely abusive towards us in our childhood, which is why we developed DID.
Our partner now as well has NPD and they're the healthiest relationship we've ever had 😊
They're incredibly loving and sweet and supportive. Of course they have their struggles as anyone with a lot of trauma probably has, but they've never been abusive.
We think that the main difference between them and our dad and what's the "real" cause of most abuse, we think, is that our dad believed that he had the right to control us.
This dynamic of power over and ownership that gets promoted by our society is the driving force behind all sorts of horror. When you own something and think that you have a right to this thing working according to your wishes, it's only "reasonable" to use force if it doesn't.
Plus in a patriarchal society men are taught to view themselves as having the right to control others
Yeah. Good luck and be careful.
I've got BPD and one of my close friends is in the process of getting diagnosed as a system.
They also have BPD, and while some of their alters have more symptoms than others, overall there's more overlap in trauma than I expected. We have some similar experiences with dissociation, lack of emotional regulation, and emotional flashbacks.
I think my dad had BPD, but it skewed more narcissistic, so it's possible it was NPD.
Understanding that neither them nor myself are the same as the people who hurt us was a massively important part of self-awareness. Like you guys, my friends and I both had fathers who felt entitled, like they owned us, though they differed in the kind of control they used.
Parents who don't view children as people will always be a huge contributor to childhood trauma. And unfortunately, you're right that society seems to accept it.
I hope your relationship continues to thrive. I'm not sure where you guys are in the process of healing or what the end goal is, but I wish you the best in it. ❤
@@EclecticallyEccentric if you look at the literature, men with BPD are going to come out differently.
Lots of the literature suggests men with bpd often times don't make it passed their teens. If they do, it's very similar to Anakin Skywalker. The event that killed most men, caused a severe antisocial and Narcissistic trait overlay, but it's not actual NPD.
Men will just have more sociopathic and complete detachment, due to being a man with emotional needs at all is already frowned upon, bpd emotional needs for men are just seen as needy, weak and entitled. Even from BPD women 😂
@@AnimosityIncarnateI've read about BPD in men, especially coming across as having more NPD traits. That is one of the reasons I think he likely had BPD, but I understand it's possible it was NPD instead. I'm hesitant to say with certainty as I'm not a mental health professional.
My father seemed to switch between cold and detached to warm, but too often that warmth was burning rage.
As for viewing male emotions as weak, I will tell you I lost respect for my father as a teenager.
I still feared his rage. But I did not respect him. Because I was expected to control my emotions in a way he didn't. I don't believe he was entitled to respect from me at this point. I loved my father, but I hated his hypocrisy.
I do feel sorry for him, in a way. I wish he'd sought help and been able to accept he needed it.
I definitely agree, culture and the way emotions are viewed in relation to gender is a large part of the problem.
I've had close male friends cry around me, and I'm much more comfortable with that than with aggression. I didn't look down on them, but I can't speak for anyone but myself.
I likely wouldn't have the same level of care or patience with a man displaying anger in an aggressive way.
Unfortunately, anger is what society deems acceptable for men to show.
The constant demonization of Personality Disorders is disgusting.
The funny thing is, clusters A and C don't receive anywhere near as much attention as Cluster B. Cluster B is the "dramatic, obvious" one. It's the one easiest to demonize. Of course there are people in it who are truly terrible people, but people are individuals.
@Brxwn9 Eclectically Eccentric literally didn't excuse anything. They said "people are individuals" and you took that as some kind of attack? I find your language disturbing. How is the statement "most ___ all behave the same" EVER excusable to apply to a minority group, like literally replace it with a gender, ethnicity, or "socially acceptable" disability and see how that sounds.
"Most people with aspd and npd are abusive" umm citation please? What's your source? Furthermore what are you suggesting to do with that information, get people treatment and help so they can stop with the abusive patterns of behavior or throw them in the garbage as your tone seems to imply. Like what does "be[ing] held accountable" mean if not abandoning and avoiding a group of people like the plague on the basis of their disability. Also how fucking dare you just say that an entire group of people are incapable of feeling regret/pain. You are dehumanizing and demonizing a group of people.
To be clear I advocate for treating abuse as abuse, a horrible thing which must be stopped, that the abuser is to blame for and the victim owes their abuser nothing. I hate abusers.
I am just skeptical of your claim that sufferers of certain disorders are inherently abusive and evil. Treat people like individual people, judge them by their ACTIONS and not a disability they didn't choose to have. Yes, disorders impact people's behaviors, yes being aware of a person's mental illness helps identify warning signs, but to call a group, which DEFINITELY CONTAINS innocent people "inherently abusive" is incredibly harmful. I don't know your politics but I'm making the guess that you aren't a homophobe. Don't you remember how just a few decades ago there were all these "facts" "proving" that gay people are dangerous, and how that all turned out to be bullshit? Don't you see you're being tricked into bigotry?
@Brxwn9There’s a difference between having no tolerance for bad behavior and writing a person off as inhuman the moment they have a diagnosis that’s stigmatized.
@@larad9180 a person with no tolerance of bad behavior actually has compassion for themselves and other people. The people who consider people with cluster b are evil and inhuman are lacking in compassion and have bought the lies that sound good because they feel validated.
@Brxwn9Thank you! I could be viewed as “demonizing” them, but only because these personality disorders are more or less DEFINED around being an abuser. I’m sure there are some genuinely kind people with cluster B personality disorders, but the majority of people with cluster B disorders are genuinely dangerous, abusive people, who will absolutely latch on to any excuse like this to encourage more people to accept their harmful behavior. I don’t feel sorry for them unless they genuinely want to change. And they have to want to change because they want to stop causing harm, not purely because it benefits them. If they aren’t concerned with others’ well-being, I can’t possibly see why others should be concerned about them.
The problem is: there are too many non professionals and especially people who haven't sufficiently researched, talking about narcissism. It clouds the waters.
just like the guy who made this video
Lol thats why theyre professional and this guy is no professional stop talking about research that you all prolly just get ur source online
@@h4f3ou5hnah he seems way more educated then most people I have seen
So. We"re pretty sure my father is an actual diagnosable narcissist. But as someone who's autistic and sick of hearing that autistic people are assholes or use their diagnosis as an excuse to be assholes, I'm fully aware narcissism is not what makes my father a shitty person. He just actively chooses to do the shitty thing at every opportunity and just as you can have a diagnosis and learn not to do that, you can be perfectly fine and still do it. Distancing ourselves from certain people by deciding they're not human keeps us blind to stuff we might need to be vigilant about in ourselves, I.e. I could never be that much of a jerk because I'm not a narcissist. Like yes actually, you can. Learn to see it so you can own it and fix it if it happens.
Exactly. I have AuDHD and am basically a big goofy teddy bear. My ex is likely NPD or bipolar or whatever I’ll never know ow because he refuses to go to therapy for any reason. The only thing I need to know is that he chose to be the absolute most awful husband again and again for 10 years nonstop and blamed me for all of it whilst also somehow saying he knew it was all him. 🤷♀️🤷♀️. As a person who has lived with him for 10 years he certainly seems to love himself more than any other person on earth. He is always first even when he lets someone go ahead. Trust you will be paying for it on the backend.
No you can't...if you could then you would understand how they think and would be able to defend yourself.because we are from two different worlds thats why we can't understand narcissists...because the way they think it's alien to us Those thoughts never crossed our mind and to be more precise we never felt these feelings thats why we can never think how they think
Like if I m a straight man I can't understand the attraction to men
If I love animals and the earth I can never understand someone who enjoys destroying
If I m not a masochist I can't understand how ppl like pain and sexual humiliation .i dunno that feeling so I cant know how they think either
If I m not a pedophile.....
@@Maruzzela-l1u dang. You are so right. I spent like a half hour with my therapist being completely gobsmacked by her explanation that people can lie to themselves so thoroughly that it’s like they are delusional but they aren’t. To me it’s like, how can I perceive something that didn’t happen. How can I mix up words so much and lie to myself so long that I actually am no longer in touch with what is real. My mom is like this real bad
I actually just had to cut her off because she was sucking too much mental power from me. It’s too hard being around people who are basically in delulu land.
@@Maruzzela-l1u You're weird as hell, you've obviously been brainwashed by pop psych bs so there's no use trying to converse with you in good faith, but I hope reading this at least makes your day a little bit worse
What really bothers me is that it's become a buzzword. Literally any time someone comes out with an ab*se story they call them a narcissist and I'm like bro, 😭 especially when they're not straight or cis. Not every single person on the internet is a narcissist and you don't even know them! I myself had a brother that we believe to have npd and it was different because i lived with him. I also used to believe one of my parents was a narcissist until I got told more lore and I realized they were just messed up 🤷🏼♀ yall gotta stop calling everyone with self esteem a narcissist and stop calling strangers that in general.
I mean most personality disorders, especially NPD are believed to stem from abuse. So both things could be true. Your parent could be a narcissist. It could be a result of their experiences. It usually is.
Agreed- like certain people will use it as a buzzword when referring to trans people because apparently wanting to be comfortable in your own body is selfish.
That reminds me of the time I was watching a YT video where the creator had used a very obvious blurring filter. A lot of people in the comments kept going, "Wow! You look great! Must be because you're so unproblematic!" All I said was, "Guys, in this video he's obviously using a filter that erases every single line on his face lol. I think he looks good in general, but come on."
And I immediately had a few people respond with, "you're a narcissist!" It was very weird.
Narcissism is a overused buzzword it can buzzzzz off 🐝
Queer people can be narcissists too get over urself
Two things I want to remember from this video:
1. People with NPD struggle to self-regulate their sense of self-worth.
2. NPD is a trauma response.
Both serve to make it easier for me to think in a more compassionate way of people with NPD, which is what I was looking for. Stigma doesn't help anyone.
maybe you care maybe not, but there are some really strong studies that aspd is also related to trauma.
I feel like the complexity of narcissist shows how important it is to remember not to get consumed with labels. Narratives and their nuances help so much more. There are people who are even more vilified than narcissists (psychopaths) and it is only a subset who are dangerous and it is actions like torturing animals that are a greater signal than a diagnosis.
I appreciate your nuanced take with Dr. Ramani. When I was living with an abusive family member, I watched her videos daily because they made me feel seen and gave me a “why” for my family member’s actions. I escaped that situation, and I haven’t really watched her videos since then. I don’t think my family member would be diagnosed with NPD, and he’s probably not even a “narcissist” but the patterns of abuse were similar enough that her advice helped. I think a lot of people feel similarly, her videos are like a form of free therapy for folks in the thick of it.
I’ve always had some issues with Dr. Ramani’s approach, but I think she’s probably the best narcissist content creator, and I only ever really watched her. Cant even imagine the hellscape of pop psychology on tiktok
I suggest you check out prof. Sam Vaknin, a diagnosed narcisisst university professor. After hearing him youll think dr ramani is even more pop psychology, still very good for the first realisation shocks, but in order to understand narcisissm correctly, vaknin is not to be ignored
@@zazou7457 Vaknin is interesting. I take him with a grain of salt too. He sounds very good, cites a lot for sources but do you look them up and analyse them? I don't lol. But his ideas about introjects and how people with NPD think (they don't gaslight, they can't, they believe their own delusions) has helped me to take the behaviour of my abuser and her flying monkeys a lot less personally. His credentials are... interesting
@@zazou7457 imaging falling for the words of the bear in his ffing cave... yall literally let NARCS define the discourse?? this is so dangerous jfc!
Dr Ramani has hundreds of clients as well as backed up research. The only thing I heard half way through this was, “in my experience…” I’ll take the research and thousands of hours of experience. While I hear what you’re saying that narcissists are human too, it’s really hard for a lot of people to set MUCH needed boundaries around them. And, while some may change, it’s important for people suckered in by the lies, deceit etc to get clear that maybe for their case, they need to NOT be empathic with the narcissist because they’ve over done it for way to long, have gotten immensely taken advantage of and need to just get away and/or set firm boundaries.
I don’t think there’s a narcissistic industrial complex, I think there’s a pandemic of toxic self centeredness and narcissism in the culture, especially in the USA. The popular psychologists or professionals are calling it out and I say thank god. Maybe people will change if most of the population refuses to put up with being treated badly. If they make a bunch of money, good for them. Isn’t that what you’re doing with your channel?!. I don’t think Dr Ramani is like Oprah or anything though! I think she’d laugh to know people think she’s getting filthy rich off this.
Psychology in Seattle has a huge deep dive on Narcissistic Personality Disorder(run by an experienced therapist), and it explains it really well with compassion toward narcissists. He does a great job of explaining the disorder, why it happens, and treatment without using the demonizing language that a lot of people, even clinicians, use. I really appreciate his work to destigmatize and educate about personality disorders as someone who has one (BPD).
I think the problem we should all remember is no matter the mental health issue, if you don't take care of yourself and listen to those you hurt, you will continue to hurt them and eventually stop caring that you do. Because they're the problem, not you.
There's different levels of pain. And in those levels you could accidentally hurt someone. But that can be fixed. It's when you use your pain to hurt others that it might be too late to fix it because you've hurt them too much and they might not want to be around you anymore. That's when YOU need to decide what is greater. The pain YOU feel? Or the pain you inflict from it. That's what I think makes genuine awful people. When you hurt people and stop caring you're hurting people
Could not have said this any better. I 1000% agree!
I observed that if you put the key word narcissist. it gains a lot of viewers. And sometimes, even psychiatrists or well known therapists talked about the how to deal with narcissistic person but never asking the questions "Why?" The only person that shed lights in to being narcissistic is Dr Gabor Mate... According to him, they are just very traumatized people... I've been thinking about this, this past few months
Yeah most mental illnesses come from a mix of genetics and environment. We don’t know the exact cause of most mental illnesses currently, that’s not really something we could ethically test, but that’s the best guess we have based on the research we have right now. That includes personality disorders. Including NPD and ASPD. As someone who’s been through severe abuse and likely has a PD, I can attest that it most likely is trauma for most people. But that is just an opinion without research.
@@saltydinonuggies1841 100%
I'm an incredibly traumatized person, however, I do not abuse people emotionally, mentally, or physically. Trauma is no excuse to abuse others. We shouldn't be excusing people's damaging behaviour.
@@jentlefer you are awsome for not inflictiing pain to other people. however, no matter how much i dont wanna say this. there is no black and white. only shades of gray. people's damaging behaviour exists for a "reason". and maybe when we ask the question "why"? then the start of stopping the cycle. no matter how hard it is to understand and felt like theres no justice
@@jentlefer i feel like acknowledging some people's trauma manifests behaviours that can harm other people as well as themselves isn't "making excuses" though? "i understand why you ended up doing this" is not the same thing as saying "i will never stand up for myself when you do hurtful things and act like they are a good thing". pretending the only reason people hurt others is because they are conciously trying to do so and that this is something only a subsect of people are capable of helps no one.
People use the pronoun ‘I’ and there’ll be someone with a ‘Narcissist’ diagnosis locked and ready.
Quite literally happened to me over message once and I was so confused because I read the message back and couldn't figure out how I was meant to structure it any differently
Are you sure it is ‘People’ and not you? One might say you’re projecting no? Lol
@@basicjenkins Agree 100%. The "saying 'I' so much" thing is boIoks. It's armchair psychologists who take DSM definitions & break them down by NON-scientific language. Like as if saying "I hope you're feeling better" is 'narcissistic' cos a "normal" [>_>] person would have said instead: "Hopefully you're feeling better." Nvm that's a more passive phrasing, and the _point_ is that you should feel better and you are cared about; these armchair psychs claim that the 2nd, "non-I" way, "you wouldn't putting yourself at the centre, cos *'I'* hope?! Even my feeling better is about YOU??" It's silly, but it's worse than that. People go WAY too far with this stuff, like to a point that can be damaging to interpersonal relationships.
I'm watching the video as I type this so not halfway through, but fwiw though I don't like the pathologisation of everything. Like there was a Behind the Bastards pod on some bastard who secretly harmed a lot of people, and the guest, vexed as to why _like that,_ asked the host, "Why woyld be do this? Do you think he did this [awful thing] cos of being kind of narcissistic, like to be remembered?" (Fwiw, context clues made it obvious he meant it as the trait descriptor, not as NPD, and further, host Robert shot it down anyway & even noted it's not about having a mental health issue, that seeking "which" is a wasted endeavour.) It's prudent to note that there is a difference between the trait of narcissism and the disorder, NPD, a full-bodied diagnosis well beyond "person has narcissistic traits". (And with an unfortunate name, but that's the DSM. "Personality disorders" is kinda crap, and I don't have one so I'm not taking personal offence.)
It's made yet worse by the increasingly bold self-ID narcissists who come out of the woodwork to write essay comments about being maligned for being NPD narcissists is "literally the same as maligning someone for having depression or cancer, but they only do it with NPD". There's a gray area, but it's not the same cos the issue with people who cause harm is the harm they cause, not the idea that they have NPD, and they want to be excused carte blanche, across the board, for the overt harm they cause to others - not recognising that "we can't change who we are, but we can learn to recognise and change behaviours that harm others". True with NPD and "non-pathological" narcissism and depression and anything else, but one is not like the others. The issue is that it's not the same when having been at the hands of a narcissistic betrayer who caused lasting harm and refused to change cos they wouldn't even recognise that they were causing harm. But it's unhelpful to express offence at something no one said, like (to quote one) "I'm sick of everyone saying that all r[SA]ists have NPD!" That was in response to the guest asking if narcissism (not NPD; context clues) might have been behind why a man wronged so many people. No one said "NPD = will SA" is a thing I've never seen or heard anyone say outside that comment alleging it.
That said, yeah, we shouldn't be flattening people into caricatures according to which diagnosis they have, or any such narrow category. People just insist on doing that. I talk of narcissists in my life, but I'm talking of the harm they cause c/o narcissistic behaviour & refusal to seek help or even accept they have a problem, nvm should change. There are narcissists I've known who have that insecurity, the "feeling trash so lashing out at others to make them feel like trash", but the problem isn't getting them a diagnosis (if they haven't), it's getting them to stop harming people, and not ending up incapacitated from the defensive wounds endured with every attempt at helping out or even just being a friend to them. It's not the NPD, it's the narcissism, the excuses, the selfishness, the lack of consideration for others... I'm not cutting off someone because they have NPD; I do it for allll the other stuff, cos even I don't deserve such mistreatment.
Sorry for rambling.
@@witchcraftandlizardryLiterally it's an armchair diagnosis thing, notably common in true crime. "Her letter claimed to be about her friend, but note how she starts every sentence with 'I' and talks about _her_ feelings." Like the "I hope you feel better" example in my long ramble above.
I don't have NPD, btw, and have suffered at the hands of people who do, so I'm not getting defensive (as in feeling personally attacked)... I guess I am defending OP's post cos it's very normal and you're sounding like the armchair """"experts"""" who jump in like "THERE! NPD! 17/20!" Do you need a mirror, or?
@@mookinbabysealfurmittens sorry I thought it was clear I was joking I was gonna use a tone indicator but I thought because I was responding to a joke it would be implied. I was armchair psycho-analyzing but was careful not to use ‘I’ pronoun myself lol but yea I know all about and I’ve noticed a decline in the use of the word where like in 2017 it was a big thing like I noticed ppl have shifted to saying toxic or abusive instead and after I recovered from abuse myself many years ago I am disinterested in the topic and don’t think it’s wrong for ppl to try to understand their experiences but I hate the diagnosing or when true crime throws around psychopath or sociopath because any of these diagnosis don’t inherently make a person evil or bad. I have periods of struggling with empathy cause of my autism but one can choose to do what is socially right like you don’t need to have empathy or guilt remorse etc etc to be a good person and it can really just be a form of neurodivergence and a self aware person does not need to have themselves stigmatized this way just because some are not interested in integrating into society and social stuff etc or something I kind of forget where I was going w this
I often think narcissistic tendencies develop from heavily toxic and abusive environments which is sad in itself. You’ve been abused and now everyone wants to judge you for micro aggressions based on a label you were given to help you manage your life. Doesn’t seem fair
Depends. Sometimes they're macroaggressions or gaslighting your romantic partner. There's a huge lack of nuance on this issue. But for people with truly highly narcissistic personalities they're definitely not micro aggressions.
@@IshtarNike I think people who are narcissistic and are getting help deserve support. People who engage in aggressive behaviour while taking no accountability are often the ones who get negative attention and deservedly so.
Personality disorders are often formed from trauma, so you're definitely on the mark there.
@@IshtarNikecan you clarify which definition of gaslighting you're using here? thank you
@@Lala-bobloblawwhere in the world do you see narcissists getting help?
I was abused by someone who displays a lot of traits of NPD including the core mindset of self hatred. The thing that helped me the most in healing was 1. Everyone finding out I was telling the truth and he is in fact a horrible person 2. Listening to people suffering from NPD- their stories, their struggles, their thoughts processes. If he does have NPD like my therapist theorizes, then he suffers from it. He’s struggling deeply. He needs help. I can see, from a distance, his life falling apart, him abusing someone else, his self loathing and lack of identity. It doesn’t make me happy, but it makes me see him as human. And that helps me a lot personally
Same situation-my abuser ofc has not been diagnosed so all I can say is the exhibit most of the traits and beliefs of a narcissist, but if he does have NPD, that actually makes it easier for me to believe he’s not just an inherently terrible person, but someone with bad coping mechanisms who needs help.
Of course, while we were together I didn’t feel like I could leave because while he was treating me like shit, he had me convinced things would be okay if I just helped him, so it’s still a little complicated. He kept reminding me he had depression and trauma and all these illnesses and that he just needed help, and that once he got help (which he was actively NOT seeking from anywhere but me), then he would treat me better, so I would be “heartless” and “stupid” and “immoral” as a person to leave him. Eventually I found out that he had been fully lying about 70% of his trauma (claiming to have watched people die who are still alive, talking about a ton of military trauma when he was never in the military) and staging the emergencies that I “had to help him through.” If I didn’t find out those were lies, I would still be stuck there. If he had been diagnosed with NPD while we were together but wasn’t seeking treatment, I can imagine him using it to call me heartless again for not just helping him when all he needs is help and support.
I was willing to believe he “just needed help” because even without the lies though, I saw it. And I still do. He was deeply insecure and suffering for it, and acting out and pushing others down to help relieve that. And I did and still do feel bad for him because of it and hope he gets the help that he actually needs. I don’t forgive him for everything he did to me, mostly because he’s never apologized or even admitted to any of it, but I do think someday if he tries he can get better, and I hope he does-more for the sake of his future partner, but also someday for his own peace.
I’ve been watching a lot of content from people diagnosed with NPD who have been through treatment, and it’s really helped me understand why maybe he treated me the way he did and to sympathize with him. But something they all repeat is that it’s work that they had to go through, and they had to take the initiative to go through and keep going through. Which my ex was never willing to do.
I think it’s important to have empathy for people with NPD, and to remember they are human and do need help, but also that generally speaking, they’re the ones who need to seek that help. They’re not monsters, but if they do hurt you, you don’t have to be (and really can’t be) the one to help them.
my mom became a narcissists bad content creator when i was a kid & now i have a bpd diagnosis & im doing my phd in the neuroscience of bpd & am so radically against personality disorder stigma its crazy. ty for this video, ive only recently seen this take getting traction
I'm so sorry, you must have faced a lot of emotional neglect from her. I hate the stigma too, people with cluster Bs are people with trauma disorders. It is the same with DID, we are in the same sort of boat, and I refuse to throw people under the bus, just because DID is getting destigmatized.
im so glad to finally see a more mainstream creator talking about npd in a more nuanced and unsensational way. the villainization of narcissism and conflation of the disorder with abuse hurts both people with stigmatised mental illnesses and abuse victims. as someone with personality disorders (not npd but still) im very excited for ppl to finally realise this and move away from this awful trend
once u know a real legit narcissist, you realize how terribly loosely the term is thrown around. Ive only known one in my life and they aren't that common to come across
Yes. Not all bad people are narcissists but I have met some genuine ones.
@@bunnybird9342 Diagnosed?
@@cheyannegiles9772 yes, as well as one who was never diagnosed but both my mom, who was a psychologist, and my older sister's therapist agree
It’s estimated to be actually 1 out of 25 people. I’ve met more than a few and I can say they had all of the hallmarked traits. Including the biggest which is lack of empathy,
@@purevenus6359that trait just could be attributed to autism or ASPD
Being forced to mask your whole life potentially makes you bitter enough to be abusive. It is highly likely that they could have the other "good" disorders instead
I would like to remind everyone at all times that a person is a human being no matter their actions nor batshit behavior. They still experience and have their motives in life just as you do.
I used to see those videos and be like "oh no am I a narcissist??" and that was really not a great time, being overly vigilant of my own emotions.
EDIT: this was to share that overly vague and generalising pop psychology videos can affect people with anxiety in different ways, and if you experienced something similar you're not alone.
If you’re worried about being a narcissist, you probably aren’t, you know lack of empathy being sort of central to the idea.
@@ookamiblade6318 that’s what I concluded too, but you know how the anxious mind can be.
@@ookamiblade6318NPD is about projecting a perfect self into the world because of how much you hate yourself though? Someone with narcissism can very much be worried about it
@@ookamiblade6318this is not the take you think it is. A disorder that is largely about needing validation can include needing validation that you are a good and mentally well person. Being obsessed with how you come off includes being obsessed with coming off well. Being insecure of your identity is the core of a large amount of personality disorders.
If someone recognizes symptoms in themselves to the point they're worried they have a disorder, even if they conclude they dont have the disorder, it doesn't meant they're "safe" it means there could be some behaviors to work on.
@@minni_sung9437 girl come on
As a narcissist, thank you for making this video. A lot of personality disorder circles focus on activism in such a way that we say “don’t use the word narcissistic, it’s ableist to people with NPD” instead of saying “maybe there shouldn’t be something called Narcissistic Personality Disorder”
We have people speaking about it, but it seems like it’s only people with personality disorders talking about the issue.
Shout out to that one tumblr post that goes "Doctors could name a disorder "Whiny B*tch Disorder" and I assure you that the reaction in the ND community at large would not be "what the f*ck is wrong with the psychiatric field and how they think of mentally ill people, we should not allow that name and diagnosis", but rather "PSA: Please don't use 'whiny' and 'b*tch' as insults, that's ableist against people with Whiny B*tch Disorder!"".
Shout out to that one tumblr post that goes "Doctors could name a disorder "Whiny B--ch Disorder" and I assure you that the reaction in the ND community at large would not be "what the f--k is wrong with the psychiatric field and how they think of mentally ill people, we should not allow that name and diagnosis", but rather "PSA: Please don't use 'whiny' and 'b--ch' as insults, that's ableist against people with Whiny B--ch Disorder!"".
@@alejerichoYikes all around
Agreed I feel bad for people with NPD cause I have BPD with some narcisstic traits and with how much I'm villainized for having such traits I can't imagine how people with NPD deal with it. It just makes people with NPD less likely to get help cause they'll feel like they are the labels others tell them. I also find this very hypocritical how people call personality disorders the toxic abusive ones but yet are verbally abusing us with these labels.
"De-stigmatize mental health!"
(Villainizes personality disorders instead of realizing unrecovered people who has currntly [but temporarily] meet PD criteria are suffering as much as they're making others suffer.)
The title alone gave me chills. i am 20 seconds in and can very much tell this is a very needed video.
on God, narcissism is becoming the boogyman of pop psychology and I can't take these people seriously anymore.
Ive always thought it was bizarre that we treat npd so differently from other mental health disorders. If someone is borderline, people are willing to forgive and try to treat their awful behavior, but if theyre trying to resolve their npd, its seen as hopeless
My best friend has been diagnosed with npd and ive always hated the stigma attached to it. He isnt empathetic at all but he learned how to react when he should, like he isnt sad that your sad but he does care and chooses to comfort you. It's like assuming someone walking slow is doing so because they want to be late and not because they have a limp. Obviously if he does something rude i would tell him off like anyone else but he isnt rude, evil, or mean, hes kind, thoughtful, and sweet. I judge him on his word and actions, not his lack of reaction to things he doesnt understand.
Thank you so much Elliot for making this video. I wish I saw this in 2018, when I discovered my narcissistic tendencies. (I'm not officially diagnosed, and I don't know if I have NPD or not. My narcissistic traits are many, though.) When I tried to educate myself about it, most of what I found told me that I wasn't even human, and that I was doomed to hurt everyone around me. I went into a spiral, always drinking, distancing myself from people as not to hurt them. It was bad.
Fortunely, I snapped out of it. I thought, fine, if I couldn't be human I'd be a god. A benevolent god. I decided to use my narcissistic traits for good. I worked on myself and tried to become better. (I also binge watched The Good Place an embarrassing amount of times. lol Seeing narcissistic, antisocial characters learn to be better and forming bonds with others gave me hope.) I can proudly say I've become a better person. I know this because more than one person have told me so. I'm still not a saint. I still struggle with vulnerability. But I can continue to try, can't I?
As for the myth of Narcissus, what I take away from it is that Narcissus doesn't love himself, only his reflection. In some versions of the tale, he doesn't even know that it is him in the pond. If he loved himself, like truly loved himself, he'd remove himself from the cold, lifeless water. He'd instead direct his attention to his real self. The self that feels pain. The self that rages and fears. The self that experiences all these complicated emotions and sensations. His tragedy is that he can only love the perfection he sees in the pond, not his real, messy self. That's the tragedy of real-life narcissists as well. So, as a part of my healing, I learned to cultivate authentic self love and self acceptance. It helped, so much.
There are a couple of books I found useful. One is "Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion" by Paul Bloom, which offers a way to be good without empathy. Another is "The Selfishness of Others: An Essay on the Fear of Narcissism" by Kristin Dombek, which debunks the fear and hate people have towards narcissists.
To all narcissists reading this who are trying to be better, I see you, and I love you. I know it's not easy, but please keep going because it's so worth it. I hope you have a lovely day today.
Damn, that's a great interpretation of Narcissus
I love your take on Narcissus, and super proud of you for all the progress you've made with your possible NPD despite all the toxic negativity out there telling you that you're a bad person. You deserve better, and I'm glad you're finding a way to make the life for yourself you want. Keep at it, you got this
This is such a good discussion. Nameless narcissists' point on people using it as something to obsess over and not move on from hit home for me. I was like that for a while but as I opened up to viewing creators who are narcissists and learning from their perspectives, my obsession has turned into an interest in destigmatizing the disorder and gaining more understanding. How can someone begin to want help for something that everyone bastardizes? I hope we can change the narrative so more people with NPD can get help without feeling as many of the horrible things they're already feeling. I'll be sharing this one!
I learned about narcissism way back in 2003, during a family counseling appointment. It was another attempt at getting my father to understand and accept his effect on everyone in the family. It didn't work.
The counselor did say something though: he was a textbook case of narcissism. I went home and looked it up, and yeah, it seemed very accurate. At first though, being a kid, I didn't care about the label. Knowing what he was never changed what he did. We suffered so much regardless.
It wasn't until I was older, living with my own mental illness that ruined my life for years, that I looked at my dad with understanding. We both lost most of our friends, our jobs, our savings, our homes. We were roommates for quite awhile, even if I still couldn't stand being around him long. Now that I have more understanding of neurodivergence, I can understand that his interaction with reality is different from mine.
I still haven't fully forgiven him, but now we can actually keep in contact and have a relationship. It's not, and probably never will be, a close father-daughter relationship, but I'm glad we have what we have.
EDIT: I didn't appropriately explain myself. I now understand that there's a lot going on with my father that has nothing to do with narcissism that contributes to the way he treated us. I understand that narcissism isn't the thing to blame on its own.
I was diagnosed ASD level 2 last year, but as a teen I was diagnosed with BPD. At the time, I did intensive research into the diagnosis and became hyper aware that it was a coin flip whether I got diagnosed BPD or NPD, so when I saw people calling those with NPD evil, it just reminded me of a more blatant version of the same stigma I faced from my BPD diagnosis and I was like "how is this fair?"...
Now I'm convinced that BPD and NPD are bullshit crappy attempts to categorise what's simply complex trauma/CPTSD. Often, they're labels given to people with undiagnosed ASD with added gender bullshit on top (ie many with a BPD diagnosis are women with undiagnosed ASD, and many with an NPD diagnosis are men with undiagnosed ASD). You get BPD if you're seen as emotional or manipulative, NPD if you're seen as unempathetic or self absorbed.
I thought my dad was a narcissist but now I know he was undiagnosed ASD and also just a terrible father lol
What about a man who is manipulative, self absorbed, unempathetic and emotional 😂😂. I am diagnosed AuDHD and my ex was diagnosed with adhd. Occasionally I wondered if he had ASD, but he was so manipulative at such a high level that I can’t imagine he would fit as autistic. No one except me and my kids know about his rages and outbursts. No one else. I cannot tell anyone I know about what is happening or I seem crazy. The few times I tried to reach out for help, folks called him to see if he was ok. It’s crazy making. And I’ve learned by now not to even engage because he is so quickly able to confound and confuse me I will fall into meltdown with in moments of his targeted attacks. I definitely have diagnosed ptsd from my decade with him to add to the CPTSD I had before we met 😂. He wouldn’t get any help and thank goodness I finally woke up!!
But for me I am like the most lovable, loving loudmouth person. I can’t imagine hurting someone on purpose. I can’t imagine being able to be a totally different person in public than in private. He acts like I can’t remember by saying one thing one day and another the next and blames me and my memory. It’s gotten so bad I had to reduce all communication to text because he talks in loops I cannot understand them tells at me for asking for clarification. But even that leaves me exposed. I ask a yes or no question and I get a paragraph that is so unclear I have to keep asking for clarification which gives him the chance to be cruel and then he blocks me. So after a decade of giving this man my everything and taking all his trash and raising our kids, he is using everything he knows about me to absolutely disorient and confound me and possibly attempting to take the kids from me. Kids he doesn’t even want to raise. It’s terrifying and I’m just hoping it won’t get as bad as some folks say it will get. I don’t view him as a monster. I know he went through abuse and he is emotionally traumatized, but the way he’s behaves toward me and his kids is downright evil and I am an atheist. Like it was so bad I started to think he was the devil 😂. I had to go get help because i started to think this is the devil here to punish me for my failings. It was insane. I am so glad to be out of it. Oh lord I’m so glad. No joke I go to church now. I’m still mostly an atheist but I realized that the more I go in public around people he doesn’t know, the less he will attack me directly. So now I go to church every week with my kiddos 😂😂
@@DaughterofDiogenesStudies have shown a bias towards perceiving the same behaviour as NPD in a man but BPD in a woman. So if you have significant traits of both, your sex makes it likely you will get diagnosed with one or the other, due to assumptions in the psychiatrist about what motivates men (seeking power) versus women (seeking emotional relief). I think that is the phenomenon the commenter was referring to.
Yup. I can directly trace my bpd impulses to trauma I had. Its definitely c-ptsd in my case, though I use bpd partly bc its easier to say and explain and partly bc i hope openly identifying as bpd can help me be an advocate for those like me
exactly my thoughts
As "high functioning autistic"( I don't like that label so much!), I started to be sceptical about types of narcissistic personality, when word "high- functionig" appeared. Also, the DSM's definition sounds a awful lot like definition of autism by neurotypical people- like, it's true to some degree, but... but the symptoms are described by other people, not by "sick" human himself. I often feel angry, because strangers describe autism spectrum as something alien and strange when I'm living with it and it's just... life. I'm kinda interested how "narcissist" would describe himself in context of this medical definition.
Exactly! As another autistic person, I immediately empathized with people who have personality disorders because neurotypicals (and sometimes even neurodivergents!) constantly treat us like burdens. It reminds me of the "autistic parents" stereotype. They barely even ask how *we* feel. It's always about how we affect others and never about how we affect ourselves.
Based egotypical(no NPD) realizing the criteria are all about how we affect others not about the internal experience! Thank you!
it's like all of these symptoms can be categorised and have one root, one cause, which IS the true symptom. instead, this true symptom is broken into small "ordinary" fragments not for you but for *people around you*, which puts doctors (and others) in a comfortable position when they can dismiss a person saying "we're all like this from time to time" (="annoying, difficult and inconvenient"), until your condition is dire. and even they can't afford even a dime of humanity for you, because now you are "dangerous" and "incapable". but of course they want to be superficial, not to help those whose needs and appearances are different from theirs. as it said in my country, nds can only "be pitied or be laughed at".
sorry for doomer take maybe.
hi! im a narcissist! and i get what you mean about the problem with using the term narcissist as separate from NPD, however the solution is not to change the name of the disorder - this was tried with ASPD (previously psychopathy and sociopathy) and the stigma didnt go away, people with ASPD are still frequently called ps*chopaths and s*ciopaths, which are now deemed derogatory terms or slurs - the solution is to not call people who dont have NPD "narcissists" the same way you shouldnt call someone who doesnt have schizophrenia "schizophrenic"
you can not separate "a narcissist" from "NPD", people who are "narcissistic" without NPD are egocentric/arrogant/self-centered or whatever other synonym you want to use. narcissism also doesnt make someone evil or bad or whatever inherently, as you said, abuse is a personal choice (or, rather, a series of choices) a person makes whether they know they're harmful or not.
this is partially why the phrase "narcissistic abuse" is about as meaningful as "autistic abuse" or "schizophrenic abuse". having a disorder may cause some behavioural problems (for example, im autistic and am prone to get meltdowns in which i will instinctively hit anyone who touches me (to prevent this, when i feel a meltdown coming on i make sure to make it Very Clear not to touch me or i may hurt them or myself)) but that doesnt make someone abusive. in fact, knowing that you are more prone to problem behaviours such as "overreacting" when we feel criticized or ostracized, we are able to take measures to counteract that struggle
on a side note, "Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria" or RSD is something ive seen talked about a lot in ADHD and is regarded as something thats intensely painful and difficult to deal with, however when it comes to narcissists who have the same trait, it's often demonized and viewed as manipulative. this is likely due to the stigma of NPD and potentially the infantilization of ADHD
furthermore, the traits of "narcissistic abuse" already have a label: emotional abuse. when you look into what many call "narcissistic abuse" all of these actions and behaviours already fall under the category of emotional abuse, there's nothing that's tied to NPD specifically. it's just another way for people to demonize a mental disorder that is most often caused by trauma and abuse in childhood
i know you probably wont see this comment as this video is a year old, but if anyone wants to find some resources on narcissism but cant find it under the pile of ableist professionals and armchair pop psychologist blogs, have a masterlist of resources i found on tumblr
www.tumblr.com/psychiatricwarfare/740331703668703232?source=share
sorry this was so long! im not very good at condensing my thoughts 😅 but thank you if you did read this far! here's to building towards a less ableist future
Tldr
This was a shining gem of a comment compared to the cesspool that is this comment section
Multiple therapists over the years have told me that both my mother and my husband show many classic symptoms of NPD. It was therapy that pushed me toward looking into it and I am finally willing to accept that it is likely true. They both happen to be abusive in thier own way and it is soul crushing and spirit killing. Watching videos by a particular man who was diagnosed and is in therapy and makes videos. He really taught me to see the pattern of behavior and stop worry about a certain diagnosis. Focus on the behavior and how it makes me feel and move from thier. I have always told my husband that if he was willing to get help I could stay with him. It’s been 10 years and I can’t do it anymore. He refuses still to seek any treatment and so we had to separate. My therapists have suggested he shows strong symptoms of sociopathic narcissism. And the internet describes covert narcissism and that fits very well with his personality. No one knows what he’s like. He only acts out toward me and the kids. He just treats us like he hates us and says horrible things. There’s just so much. I can totally see why it would be frustrating to have NPD and not be an abuser and get lumped in with those abusers. I think more videos by people with NPD who aren’t abusers would be so very helpful because it would help show that just because you have NPD doesn’t mean you are an abuser. I think for some reason that people need to feel like their abuse must come from somewhere and so it’s easy to blame it on NPD.
I was abused as a child, as were many of my friends, and I’ve noticed that all of us, myself included, have gone through phases of believing our abusers were narcissists. I’ve also noticed that it’s not helpful in the long term. Just a flash of being obsessive and hoping it’ll make things hurt less, but it doesn’t. Turns out therapy is much more helpful than r/raisedbynarcissists for healing from trauma.
I've employed the use of the term "the bleeding ego". I haven't mastered confidence. But people often comfuse true confidence with, what I feel to be, some form of narcissism. They need constant validation and appreciation so they project this image of an overly confident individual. But, of you know a person like this, you only have to scratch a bit past the surface to discover they are wounded, scared individuals with very low self esteem. Thus, the bleeding ego. They make their ego and sense of self the problem of those around them. They need others to hold the bandage to their wounded ego. This has been my experience with such individuals.
Yes! I had all this suspicions floating around about this new trend of cataloguing a*holes as narcissists. Smelled very essencialist and didn't help with addressing the real issue, which is the abuse.
Personally, i hate the term 'narcissistic abuse'. I went through abuse from someone with NPD, and I would never think to call it that, because it makes it sound like the reason for the abuse was their NPD, and not that they... just were a shitty person. Not everyone with NPD is abusive or controlling.
Neurotypical people can be abusive, but we don't name the abuse after the PERSON, we name it after the type of abuse (domestic, sexual, etc). Isn't it interesting that the only time we tie the actual person to the term is when they have a personality disorder?
Genuinely thank you. I've seen so many neurodivergent people think that narcissists (and other cluster B's) are demons. It's great to see you make this video as i have some narc traits (like near entire cognitive empathy and some manipulitive tendencies) so thank you
I once spoke to a physically and mentally disabled woman who advocated greatly for disabled rights and had cared for many suffering people... except personality disorders. She spoke about people with PDs the way people who think the Earth is flat speak about science.
Therapyspeak is the bane of our civilisation.
I don’t think it’s that bad. It’s just skibidi toilet for a larger demographic
No it's not, you're gaslighting me! >:(
(Sorry lol)
It's more so the general population outside a given community hearing of terms and overusing them so much that they end up getting appropriated in contexts that aren't even actually the correct contexts to use them in
This is a new age of education for the masses, we're seeing a lot of people learn new terms, misunderstand them, then correct their misunderstanding in real time.
@@popstel2286 Don't compare skibidi toilet to something that does real harm even if its not rome-destroying-levels-of-harm
As a now licensed therapist and survivor of narcissistic abuse from my dad as a child, people throw around the term narcissistic way too much. My dad is the only person with NPD that I've ever known in my life. He wasn't some big evil monster that did only horrible and bad things. He was a complex human being. Yes he did sometimes do horrible things and was most certainly an abuser towards me and my family. But he was also capable of smiling, laughing, being happy, and creating happy memories with us. This is why it was so hard for me to make the decision to cut him out of my life. Because while he was capable of making me feel so horrible and small, he also had his own trauma while growing up and all of his behaviors came from his own deep sense of insecurity and not feeling good enough.
Narcissistic abuse was made up by a guy who didn't have any kind of psych degree in order to hurt sexual assault victims. There's nothing about your so called "Narcissistic abuse" that's different from any other kind of abuse, other than being ableist
I’ve been waiting for this video. I’m with a man who has diagnosed NPD. He is very aware of it and fights to be the best version of himself he can be. I’ve watch him grow as a person to be better than his condition, taking steps to make amends for past actions and rebuild relationships. It’s been a rough journey and whenever it comes up people ask me if I’m safe and ok. I never take offense considering the vast majority of encounters people have with narcissists. It’s a rough thing to have for any party involved.
I'm a trans man, who is just starting to grapple with how men are treated by society as dangerous potential threats. I don't personally have NPD but I feel sympathy for how hard it must be for him to deal with the stigma and bias. He should be proud of the work you have put into himself and you should be proud for seeing beyond the stereotype and understanding the truth about your partner.
@@annajensen7360 Thank you from the both of us. I wish you well on your journey through manhood. While I can’t say I’m trans, there are periods where I am male presenting. I have a medical condition where I can grow a full on beard and will lean into it from time to time. Seeing everything from both worlds it’s down right heart breaking. I believe the vast majority of people deserve to have someone at least try to understand them.
excited for this video, especially after watching D'Angelo's video on Caroline Calloway. At all times I was actuely aware that yes she has undesirable personality traits, but so do lots of people. She's still a complex person, though, as are all narcissists, and deserves to be treated with the same respect and nuanced thought as everyone else. (Not excusing her actions nor ignoring the fact that she in particular probably needs several financial literacy classes and mental health support, she's just a relevant example)
i was JUST thinking this!!
I mean yeah everyone has bad personality traits but they're obviously not all equal or as extreme. she is still, in fact, a very uniquely bad person even if she is complex. Most people have good qualities and bad qualities too, yeah, but there is a threshold where if someone crosses it then others will understandably mostly view them on a negative light. When someone is riding that threshold it can be very difficult to figure out how to view that person or whether to give them the benefit of the doubt, but corline does not ride that line. I dont know where the line is exactly, but she certainly surpassed it with all her lies, theft from regular people, scams, harassment of natalie, and her doing lewd cosplays for OF of characters who are underage CSA victims. Oh and her just casually admitting that she follows 15 yos on tiktok that she's attracted to bc she likes watching them dance
Narcissistic personality disorder has been swimming around the surface of my mind since the hbomberguy/james somerton debacle.
The mess of armchair diagnosticians have made themselves really visible (at least in my bubble)
She has legitimately caused harm to other people though and continues to do so. I feel sorry for how she grew up and it definitely contributed to how she acts now. I’m not saying she isn’t deserving of help but, it doesn’t absolve her from not hurting others. I don’t think everything she does is because of her personality. Nor do I think she’s innately a “bad” person. Most rich people don’t really care or have a good understanding of there’s of people less wealthy than them. I feel like a lot of credit goes to growing up in a wealthy environment.
Agreeing with the above, she's definitely choosing to be worse than her circumstances are making her, not denying that. "Undesirable personality traits" undermines the extent of her particular situation and especially the way they play into her actions, so my fault for equating her so simply with the general public.
She's an exceptional person to talk about regarding narcissism given her scams, threatening behavior, and overall questionable actions. Again, not just actions with negative consequences but choices that she chooses to do with full awareness.
Still, from Natalie's very empathetic perspective and from CC's perspective when not talking about how shitty she chose to be, she had a lot going on that had me like "Damn. I've been there. Lots of bad days at once and you cope with what you have and it shapes you." Not anywhere as privileged as she but still carrying my own blessings, I empathized with her turmoils when factoring in upbringing, traits, and what's happened to her (the multiple addictions if you include gambling/spending, loss of an immediate family member, struggling to appear OK when you're not, etc).
Like I said, she's complex like anybody. Discussing just that from a lens like Natalie was very revealing, and the nuanced approach to examining her while still reproaching her bad choices was interesting.
To a less serious extents, D'Angelo and Elliot are star examples of how to talk about people with certain narcissist traits or tendencies or 'bad' traits while not declaring them 'evil' or 'inhuman'. I really do think she and other rich kids like her need financial literacy classes and opportunities to really learn the consequences of money as well as how to live without it. She also needs mental health support to unpack why she makes certain decisions and how she can have healthier emotions.
All of this to say that this style of convo we're having here is progress for sure
The way she talks about people, presumably with NPD, as if they *are* a disease is very troubling. She conflates narcissism as a trait with the disorder, and makes the former out to be almost worse- they behave this way sometimes because they *are* a (insert variety) narcissist.
And this villainizing of so-called narcissists paves way for the hero, the perpetual prey of the narc: the empath. Which isn’t a thing. But you can see why the whole mythology is so seductive. The idea that everyone who’s ever hurt you is inherently evil, and they chose you because you are an inherently pure being of goodness.
The “empath” narcissist!
and that dichotomy is such a simple way of thinking too, and because of that, so easily rewarding. viewing life as purely black and white in such a way makes it so one can always feel good about the decisions one makes regarding how one treats others, because there it'd be easy to justify either approach it: either they were a narcissist, or they were not. then one does not have to live the guilt or perception of responsibility of causing another person harm.
Thank you! I've been trying to explain my discomfort with using the word "narcissist" as shorthand for "they have too many traits that I perceive as self-centered and difficult to deal with" and just stopping the convo there without acknowledging the traits. Maybe because then we'd have to face the fact that there are reasons for those traits, and make a conscious decision to try holding space for them or dismiss them altogether.
It kinda seems like using "narcissist" is a way to avoid having to directly make the *choice* of whether to consider the human behind the "narcissist" entity as a whole person with experiences that led them here.
Lately, I've been trying to ask myself and others "what do you mean by that?" and trying to go further. Usually I find myself worried I'll be accused of defending "the narcissist" when really I'm trying to dig a bit deeper to see if we *have* to see the person as non-complex and non-human for the sake of the conversation.
For me I was being emotionally abused for years. I bent over backwards for this person. I spent years trying to consider the person she was behind those traits. She was unable to change. At the end of the day nothing I did, no matter how much space I held, she gaslighted and invalidated me.
Second person I met with some sort of "issue" was a boss who routinely acted like work was chill and there were no deadlines. Then tore my work apart and made me cry in the office. Then gaslighted me and asked me why I thought I'd done anything wrong when she'd been on a 10 minute (softly spoken) rant nitpicking everything I did. She then ran to upper management while I was signed off with stress to get me transferred to another team because of my "performance and behaviour." I had receipts so luckily the impact was low. But her behaviour was eerily reminiscent of my wife. She feigned emotional closeness, and actively pried into my personal life to get me to open up to her. But as soon as she made me cry she started ignoring my messages. Like I was basically apologising to her and she was giving me the silent treatment after she made ME cry. I realised, after a minute, that she was punishing me with the silent treatment. I wouldn't have figured that out without learning about NPD. Even if she doesn't have it it was useful to know.
Like I have no doubt the term is over used. But having made a study of the diagnostic criteria and gone over all the information I know I think I have a decent hunch about these people.
The key here is, what does me holding space for them do? Yeah my boss I didn't know that long. But she exhibited lots of similar signs. Another interesting thing is that what she did to me had no benefit to her. Like with some people the nastiness makes material sense. But when it's like ego based or so personal then you can't really negotiate that with people. You also can't see it coming because it's so irrational. My manager got nothing material out of that and lost her only direct report. Made herself look bad to the rest of the team all because she somehow couldn't bring herself to just help me do my work. I would literally talk to my wife for almost an hour in a calm methodical voice to get her to understand why her words upset me and she couldn't take responsibility for anything. And to me, as a survivor of her abuse, I'm just not interested in holding more space for people like that. The NPD model works to explain the phenomenon. I know why she has it. Her mum abused her in the same way she abused me. I was constantly trying to make up for that abuse. And all she did was take more, and then call me lazy for it. Personally I don't go around calling her a narcissist to people. But I describe her behaviours accurately. And if you happen to know about narcissistic personalities and narcissistic abuse then it's a useful term to describe a suite of related behaviours. I come from a science background and I understand that sometimes two models can be equally "true." I think this is one of those times.
In the abstract I hope these people can get help. But personally I'm not convinced that a personality style that is characterised by such deeply abusive behaviours shouldn't carry a warning label. Being a cis straight guy does, for example. And for good reason. It's not like cis men wake up and decide to be abusers (yes I know lots of abuse is a conscious decision z I've read Bancroft, but personality disorders are similar. That behaviour counts as conscious). It's also a form of socialisation. But correctly, we've decided that that's largely not the main issue at the moment. Protecting survivors is. That's where I come down on this. People shouldn't be labelled willy nilly. But this kind of abuse is serious and needs to be taken seriously.
Edit: I do agree with the point about the industrial complex around the term which is definitely not good.
@IshtarNike I think I hear you. I don't mean that holding space for someone should mean accepting abuse and excusing the abuse with the abuser's trauma stories while ignoring your own needs (nor that if you dont hold space for your abuser that you're doing something bad). There's plenty of people I don't speak to anymore because of my own experiences with them. I also do not know you and am not telling you specifically to "hold space" for your abusers' emotions. That would be pretty messed up and upsetting.
My general statements will not apply to your specific relationship dynamics with abusers in your life. I don't have answers for you specifically. I'm also not referring to narcissism as a diagnosis given by a medical professional to a patient. I'm specifically referring to when it's used in a casual context to describe someone they don't like, based on an idea that the person is just too self-centered for one's liking.
I kinda only covered the first part- recognizing the reasons. I don't have an idea on what everyone should do after that because of how complex, varied, and personal that process is. We all have different capacities at different times in our lives for different people we feel are worth that kind of effort, and I think that's okay.
I've been trying to re-evaluate my own process on these things. What does/could holding space look like in practice? Who is allowed to hold that space? What do we do with it? Am I going to be mad at people who choose to hold that space for someone who has hurt me? If so, why? If not, why? (These are questions for myself, and just for example of where my mind is at here.)
It sounds like you recognized the reasons and made your decisions on whether it was safe to stay around those people to even think about "working it out" (which I know is not possible to do with *everyone* we come across). I fully believe you shouldn't feel any guilt for decisions made to protect yourself from an abuser. It's hard to know what to say, cause I am still very much working on my own trauma responses to things and healing from those abusive experiences. But I hope you are finding yourself having more days of feeling safe and okay as time goes on.
@@IshtarNikejust checking behaviors on a DSM checklist does not actually make someone have NPD, this is the the biggest misconception. Those traits are correlational first of all, and second of all in order to get diagnosed and full on IN PERSON assessment of various sectors has to be done.
I really think calling someone who is incredibly afraid and insecure a narcisist is a misinterpretation of their intentions. Im trying to have better tolerance and communication with people who fit some of the stereotypes of narcisism. But as it is, i dont feel emotionally guarded enough to handle the guilt triping and gaslighting. Im very trusting and take things literally, and i have so much empathy. It takes days to process manipulative conversations to understand that it was based in their anxious delusions and that they are afraid of me as much if not more than I am afraid of them.
Bro, did you seriously just imply that everyone with NPD is constantly trying to guilt trip and gaslight people? Seriously? All people with NPD are afraid and insecure. Because they are mentally ill and they are suffering from their mental illness and their trauma. None of the people you're talking about had NPD unless they were diagnosed, you've probably never met a narcissist in your life and yet you're assigning bad traits to them? Don't hold yourself too highly for having empathy. Most people who describe themselves as "Empaths" are some of the most vile people you will ever meet. Also don't use the word delusion like that. I think you need to work on self-awareness more than anything else because you sound like a jackass
in the mid 2010s i was trying to leave an abusive relationship, and i went to youtube to learn more about abuse so i could understand what happened to me, how to process it, and how to heal. at that time, narcissistic abuse videos were extremely prominent--more prominent than most other types of videos about abuse, at least from what i saw. but the more videos i saw, the more i saw that this kind of content almost seemed to encourage staying stuck in circles of rumination, which would naturally encourage viewers to continue watching those videos. i struggled to find evidence that videos like this led to people actually healing. additionally it became apparent to me that you could vilify any type of behavior in this way and place the narcissism label on it without much thought. my ex-partner did many things that were simply cruel, but he wasn't a monster or a villain. he was a human being, just as i am, who made choices and took actions that caused me harm. i don't know if he had NPD, but would it have mattered if he did? it isn't useful for me in my healing to do a postmortem armchair diagnosis.
i don't have NPD, but i have another highly stigmatized disorder. my heart goes out to people with NPD, who face such extreme vitriol without nuance from the general public. they are human beings. i really enjoyed this video, it really tapped into what made me uncomfortable with pop psych content about narcissism as a whole. thank you for discussing this thoroughly and thoughtfully!
Not the “Is my mother a narcissist?” 💀
Bro how many comments you got
I smell someone who is lucky enough to have never dealt with narcissistic abuse and hasn't had to deal with that type of trauma. Might be better to get off that high horse though.
@@derpkipper “narcissistic abuse” is just emotional abuse that dehumanizes narcissists
A quick perusal of r/raisedbynarcissists will give anyone questioning a good idea what a narcissistic mother is like o.o
@@vrubin no, narcissistic abuse dehumanizes the victim of the abuse, lol. That is what narcissistic abuse is, you slowly understand that you are not a real person to them, just a useful appliance. It’s not the same as being abused by a person with depression or anxiety, because they show remorse, see your perspective, and you understand their intentions are real. Narcissists consciously (and subconsciously) manipulate and see reality and other people in a way that is completely inverted and solipsistic and is literally not capable of seeing another’s perspective. Narcissists CAN choose to not do bad things, their neural circuitry is not deficient in that respect, its just that they don’t. In other words they abuse consciously in some respect, but without fully understanding why they do these bad things. They do know they are doing bad things though. That’s what is so fucked up about it, they know they are doing it, you ask them to stop, and they don’t. Because it doesn’t benefit them. You don’t know what you are talking about.
The essentialism is really something that worries us! Whenever we try to research something to help us deal with our own narcissistic traits, we always come across some of the most vile and hateful shit.
It feels like that belief of narcissists being these inhuman monsters is something that many people share, some of them mental health professionals.
Some of them actively asking for violence against everyone with NPD.
To us, NPD is just one of many adaptations to trauma and when those traits aren't needed anymore to keep us safe, we can start to learn something new.
But the world being so hateful about it is really not super encouraging.
YOU REMINDED ME OF A PSYCHEDELIC TRIP I HAD IN WHICH I STARTED TO EXPERIENCE MYSELF FEELING THE CONSTANT NEGATIVITY THAT MY OWN TORMENTORS LIVE WITH EVERYDAY. I remember feeling lots of empathy for them because I thought to myself "if I felt so horrible about myself all the time, I'd just end things". It was a terrifying experience but it reminded me that we're all HUMANS here. Sure, it doesn't mean you have to become a co-dependent or that you have to ruin your own life to help abusive people, but it's just unfair to hate and demonize them. They're not that way because they want to.
i believe in educated self-diagnosis but i've had to teach myself not to put diagnostic labels on other people, especially when i’m coming at it from a negative pov
Good work man
yes cuz armchair diagnosing doesnt help especially when you wanna other them. fighting the urge to just say, "back up your statement with sources and detailed info." like a nerd everytime someone waters down the disorder name just to put it in context of someone you dislike and disagree with.
I appreciate this take so much. I think people who’ve been through trauma (like myself) sometimes find it comforting to dehumanize narcissists as a coping mechanism/potentially to have an easier answer for why bad things happened to them. That’s not actually healthy and it’s good to talk about that.
That isn't dehumanizing you're just recognizing the obvious, that they never even cared about you in the first place so seeing them as a human is kinda meaningless due to them not having any humanity in general
I think you should change your mind and keep dehumanizing them instead :)
@@bunnybird9342 "i think human beings with disorders i personally don't like should be treated like dirt. clearly im the normal one here"
Get help, weirdo
@@devcron7041 Okay so by saying they don't have any humanity you are actually, shocker, dehumanizing them. That is what the word means. When you become comfortable treating others as subhuman you run the risk of doing the exact same things the people who hurt you did. Which is why this is considered harmful, unhelpful rhetoric.
As someone whos been diagnosed with NPD, I will say that it's definitely more of "incapable of considering the needs of others" rather than "unwilling to do so". Its been a recurring issue between me and my partner where i struggle with paying attention to her and tend to be more absorbed in my own thoughts or whatever else im doing, and she'll call me out on it and ill tell myself "okay, well, i gotta put more effort into paying attention to and actually listening to her going forward" and then i dont, and i dont realize im not doing it until she points it out again.
Personality disorders like narcissism, sociopaths and psychopaths are so demonized. For one thing those last two aren’t even medically recognized terms but people paint the slightest thing off as one of those 3. And even if the person is diagnosed with that, they’re not evil murderers or on the verge of it either.
hi just wanted to let you know those terms you used are considered slurs against people with ASPD. im not accusing you of anything bad or malicious.
i agree with your comment 100% otherwise but i feel its good to be educated abt this sorta stuff so im just.
letting you know its best not to use that type of terminology 😭 (better off calling it what its actually named; aspd / antisocial personality disorder)
@@zootzbootz that was actually was I was getting at. That those aren’t medical terms And are demonizing terms.
@@JacobWilsonVO Ah yeah, 😭😭 sometimes my reading comprehension takes a nosedive sorry for any misunderstanding
@@zootzbootz no worries! Thanks for the heads up!
@@zootzbootznot everyone with aspd considers it a slur
The thing is dealing with someone with narcissistic tendencies is HARD. You don’t make things easy. My father for years never changed, never listened, even tho we would talk to him with the deepest respect. If you aren’t willing to change then you will be outcasted and pushed away. Although I hope for some they can make changes
of course, but its important to remember that its not a character flaw to *have* a disorder like that, the flaw is refusal to change, accept help, acknowledge wrongdoing, etc.
@@Jman0163 refusing to change, refusing to acknowledge wrongdoing, etc = NPD behavior.
So you’re contradicting yourself when you say “NPD isn’t the problem, it’s ___list of things that define NPD___”
Im glad ive been finding more info about NPD and dismantling of the concept of demonizing "narcisists". It doesnt help anything or anyone to reject people wholely or demonize them, especially if they have a disorder. They can be helped with a simple diagnosis.
when i first left my abusive house i watched Dr. Ramanis videos to kinda figure out why those things happened to me, but after starting therapy it dawned on me that they were still people but just incapable of change, and at times because of their past experiences
Well, there are recovering narcissists, they tend to be on a spectrum, nameless narcissist is a good example. While personality disorders cannot be cured, they can at least modify their behavior, thus changing it.
@@Psychedlia98 thisss
Thank you. This is a confusing subject I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while now, because I've had people in my life who I've suspected might have narcissistic traits or even the full personality disorder, and the online discussion is so muddled. I don't want to hand-wave these individuals off as "evil", because that's over-simplifying and dehumanizing. They likely wound up with these patterns due to trauma, which isn't their fault. Yet it's also functionally useful to identify these troubling behaviors because people who get unwittingly close can get seriously hurt.
Kylee! You did great. Ignore the hate. Keep going. Your courage and accountability is helping people a great deal.
Thank you!!
24:46 wow this seems VERY cruel to say about another person, treating people as party entertainment and then intentionally blocking them off from other forms of friendship? it's still exploitative if the people you're exploiting have forms of npd
Your right and that’s why I used the word toxic instead. At this point in my healing I don’t care about labeling a person because I’m sure I have been labeled narcissist from my actions. So when dealing with the people in my life I look at how they make me feel, how we communicate it’s each other, and if both people are willing to work the relationship. And I don’t care if your my mother or a friend, if I can’t be myself around you and trust you then why are we even in each other’s lives. . If I tell you that you did something to hurt me and you immediately bring up something in the past that I did to hurt you, I’m over it
Have been waiting for this discourse for years. Thank you so much for talking about this and actually doing thorough research!
Firstly, thank you so much for this video. It encapsulates all of my feelings about narcissism related content on the internet. I was raised by a narcissist and developed narcissistic traits because of it. In all honesty, I think the only reason I didn't develop the disorder in its fullest capacity is because I stumbled across the NPD criteria during quarantine, thought "wow that is literally me. I am becoming the people that hurt me" and tried to improve myself out of abject shame. I brought it up to my first therapist, who ended up saying I couldn't have NPD because I was self aware. Same woman tried to evaluate me for ASPD (she called it sociopathy lmao) when I told her my father says he's a sociopath. I quickly realized what she was doing and lied when she asked me questions. I was 16 and didn't want that life altering diagnosis.
Fast forward, I'm an adult now and in a somewhat better spot mentally. Apparently (according to my current therapist), most of my narcissistic traits are actually caused by 1) CPTSD, 2) my neurodivergence (this directly impacts empathy), and 3) bipolar. My mania comes with grandiosity and sometimes grandiose delusions, it basically mimics NPD. When I'm in the worst of my depression, I feel absolutely nothing. I've unpacked my feelings of shame more, and feel less of a need to grandstand and brag. It's... weird. I remember in one therapy session, I realized all of my trauma (sexual, bullying, etc.) all caused me to feel one thing: completely inhuman. Worthless. I hid behind achievement to escape that. It nearly killed me.
My healing journey, on the outside, almost looks like self destruction. My grades are getting worse, and my personality is becoming a bit more abrasive. But it's because I am not doing everything for praise and admiration anymore. It's just... me. My therapist even told me that as I've gotten more mentally healthy, I've become more cocky. But the key difference is, I don't feel the need to put others down. It's almost like that more positive form of narcissism I think. As it's essentially harmless.
All of this rambling about myself to say, healing is a beautiful, messy, and tragic journey. To say someone is incapable of some form of healing because of a disorder is downright sinister. It causes so much pain. And like you said, the best case scenario for the narcissist is to seek help. It helps them and others.
You were right to have red flags about that therapist- idk if it was part of the criteria back when she was diagnosing you, but now you have to be 18+ to be diagnosed with ASPD. Also, good luck on your healing journey! :3
Dang, this was really interesting to read through. I've also noticed a few narcissistic traits within myself, but have been working to get better. I think a lot of the time, people might develop selfishness as a survival mechanism to get their needs met, which is unfortunate. I hope your healing journey continues to go well
Amazing video and what an excellent sentence/sentiment to end on!! Dehumanizing people with (assumed or actual) NPD makes the world less safe for everyone, including people who have been abused by people with (assumed or actual) NPD! Dehumanizing people is truly never the answer. Dehumanizing people is not liberatory praxis; it is a tool of fascism and gen-cide.
Anyone with NPD who is reading this: I will continue to fight against people's anti-PD ableism that makes it so much harder for you to exist and access care, support, community, resources for healing/change, etc. You are not disposable!
Years ago, I read a detailed article in Oprah magazine on Narcissism and it was reflected my relationship with my Mom. The last line was, “…and God help you if this extreme form of narcissistic behavior is your mother.” Scared the shit out of me. But also gave me clarity.
Some international psychology groups are trying to get rid of NPD and BPD as terms and just using the umbrella term of personality disorder. These other terms cause a lot of stigma and does not help these individuals get help.
As a clinical psychologist I was pleasantly surprised, impressed and utterly entertained by this video. It was unexpectedly deep, broad and interesting to me. Thank you for making it. I'll look around the channel and see what else you have going on there.
21:55 Yes, thank you, I am here from this perspective as a survivor whose healing was held back for years by understanding that I am dealing with NPD, but not what that actually means. A disproportionate number of the times I've dealt with that they've been high-functioning narcissists, too, and the combination of "your abuser is an effective manipulator who is very motivated to convince you they are very smart" and "the narratives of narcissism you are exposed to ignore or de-emphasize its nature as a disability" causes real damage
using the term "narc abuse" is the same as saying "boys will be boys" about s/a because it takes the blame off the person and places it on some irrelevant trait about themselves
No, actually. The trait of narcissism isn't irrelevant to personality and your emotional relation to others, unlike being a boy.
@@IchorOfTheManndrake It doesn't matter in terms of someone being an abuser. Abuse is a choice
@@cheyannegiles9772 Correct, a choice influence by the nature of someone. They can't change, that's not an excuse, it's a fact.
That's such a good way of putting it
@@IchorOfTheManndrake Everyone can change. The fact that you don't believe that is really sad. I hope one day you can learn to see the potential in people again.
“Do you know how people know who they are without, like, asking somebody else.”
That hit way to close to home. I don’t want to talk to much about it here but growing I went through a lot. I also has bad perfectionism and OCD. Several months ago I started making progress learning how to just accept my mistakes and do things even though I could fail, and it felt like I was making my own real choices for the first time. Just today I watched a video from healthygamer that talked about how motivation is different from choice. Feeling like you have to do something (like a chore) is different from just saying I have time today so let’s do this chore. I didn’t know who I was for most of my life. I think I really realized that during a psychedelic trip (also a few months ago) and have since been working on developing myself. Breaking down my beliefs and thinking about why I believe them. Why I want the things I want. And etc. It is like I am getting to know myself for the first time. I feel like it will still be a long road though, because I missed so much time. Basically what I am saying is it is possible to have no idea who you are. And so I can see why many would turn to others to find out who they are. Focus on superficial things like accomplishments and possessions and talents for who they are because that is all they know. That may have been all I knew. I don’t really want to acknowledge it though. I am happy I got where I am and I hope others can find there own paths to healing too. ❤