We need to understand narcissism better.
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Narcissism is a controversial term; of great use to some in enumerating the abuses of unwell egotists, but often deployed at the expense of people with narcissistic personality disorder, as well as the societal need to understand why human beings hurt other human beings.
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edited by @BABILA.
Featuring interviews with @Thenamelessnarcissist and @KyleeRackam
Featuring @dr.fatima reading Echo and Narcissus
Thumbnail by Jules Tong
Selected Bibliography
Echo and Narcissus, retold by Roger Lancelyn Green www.cbsd.org/site/handlers/fi...
Lunbeck, E. (2014). The Americanization of narcissism. Harvard University Press. doi.org/10.4159/harvard.97806...
Mitra, P. and D. Fluyau. (2023, March 13). Narcissistic personality disorder. StatPearls [Internet]. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NB...
MedCircle. (2022, May 16). Narcissism: What you must know. TH-cam. • Narcissism | What You ...
Symphony no. 5 in Cm, Op. 67 - III. Allegro, recorded by Skidmore College Orchestra
musopen.org/music/2567-sympho...
“KALEIDOSCOPE” (prod. plantcham)
00:00 introduction
05:00 the research
13:16 the narcissism content industrial complex
31:57 echoes of narcissus
41:02 conclusion: understanding vs. judging - บันเทิง
pro-tip: if you really want to differentiate between a vague concept of "narcissism" and NPD as a stigmatized personality disorger, then just say self-centered or egocentric! grab a thesaurus babes, its ok to just say someone who hurt you was being self-centered
Exactly. Or just an assh*ole (had to put the asterisk because when writing a comment saying the word sh*it got a "sure you want to post this comment? Maybe edit it" disclaimers 😒)
second this x1000. we can describe the people who hurt us in ways that don’t stigmatize mental health disorders
often people merely mean selfish, but that doesn't sound sparkly enough.
If they do the whole narcissist cycle, is it ok to call them a narcissist then? I got that cycle done to me 3 times by my ex till I caught on and dumped him.
Self-centered isn't enough to cover all the behaviors. There's future-faking, projection, gaslighting, absolute lack of empathy, manipulation and hoovering. Also the consistency and intensity of the behaviors just aren't there in the word "self-centered". You can just use the fitting term: narcissism.
when the word narcissism started getting tossed around i was confused because werent people just talking about how mental health needed to be destigmatized and here they are talking about 'narcissists' like theyre some evil villian
these people arent 'narcissists' sometimes they are just assholes
Sadly most people have too loose a grasp of science and psychology to hear about something like narcissism without applying it to every disagreeable person they meet. That being said, it's also pretty common in a way. All these things, if there's like even 2% of people out there with it, that's 2 in 100 people. So over a lifetime you're pretty likely to run into them in some capacity. If they have a condition which predisposes them to abusive behaviour then I think that's important to know and important for people to be warned about. I suffered for years with someone who I think would likely be so serious as to be diagnosable. Personally I'm fine with calling her a bad person. She understands morality enough. She can turn it on and off based on what she needs. In the abstract I'm definitely on the side of getting these people help. And yes the moral panic around it is bad for everyone. But the abuse is real and highly destructive. That can't be allowed to pass by because we're favouring the perpetrator over the victim. Some things can't really avoid a stigma if they're factually dangerous.
@@IshtarNikebut the stigma is keeping people from getting the help that they need. How is someone expected to get help when everyone around them is constantly talking about how psychologists have proven that they’re inherently dangerous evil villains? Getting rid of the stigma is getting them help. It’s not excusing abuse, it is acknowledging that npd is not a predisposition to being abusive and that a disorder does not cause abuse. A person causes abuse.
When people talk about mental health, they only ever mean anxiety and depression. SOMETIMES adhd will get an honorable mention. Extremely occasionally.
@@IshtarNikethis
@@saltydinonuggies1841 People with NPD are diagnosed not because of the stigma, but because that they realize that none of their interpersonal relationships are working out and they lack self-awareness to understand why. The stigma comes after the diagnosis, when it’s revealed publicly and they’re ostracized for it. Personally, as someone who was narcissistically abused by my own roommate (this person has an NPD diagnosis and despite seeing 2 separate therapists for treatment, they still hurt me) and was mutilated in my sleep, as much as I want to understand them, my pain and suffering overwhelms any chance of doing so. I know people with covertly narcissistic traits who are too timid to abuse anyone, but because of my personal experiences, my empathy is limited. The most I can do is just pity that person and people like them because they grew up in an equally abusive household and it was just how they were taught to navigate life.
The constant demonization of Personality Disorders is disgusting.
The funny thing is, clusters A and C don't receive anywhere near as much attention as Cluster B. Cluster B is the "dramatic, obvious" one. It's the one easiest to demonize. Of course there are people in it who are truly terrible people, but people are individuals.
I wonder why NPD is demonized…maybe it’s cause how many of them behave the exact same and abuse their spouses/loved ones??
Oh nah, definently not!!! 🤪🤪🤪🤪
@@EclecticallyEccentricAnd most of them all behave the same (ASPD and NPD). BPD has many differences in representation and the harm is mainly internal vs external, so clearly the externally harming one’s (ASPD NPD) are seen as evil. Like how is this hard to understand? Most people with ASPD and NPD are abusive to their inner circle. BPD may be as well, but they, unlike ASPD and NPD tend to usually feel a deep sense of regret and pain. Even thought they might do it again..
Literally why are we excusing NPD 😭 Like plss.. They should be held accountable, all PD, especially the outward harming individuals, regardless of which PD.
@@Brxwn9 Eclectically Eccentric literally didn't excuse anything. They said "people are individuals" and you took that as some kind of attack? I find your language disturbing. How is the statement "most ___ all behave the same" EVER excusable to apply to a minority group, like literally replace it with a gender, ethnicity, or "socially acceptable" disability and see how that sounds.
"Most people with aspd and npd are abusive" umm citation please? What's your source? Furthermore what are you suggesting to do with that information, get people treatment and help so they can stop with the abusive patterns of behavior or throw them in the garbage as your tone seems to imply. Like what does "be[ing] held accountable" mean if not abandoning and avoiding a group of people like the plague on the basis of their disability. Also how fucking dare you just say that an entire group of people are incapable of feeling regret/pain. You are dehumanizing and demonizing a group of people.
To be clear I advocate for treating abuse as abuse, a horrible thing which must be stopped, that the abuser is to blame for and the victim owes their abuser nothing. I hate abusers.
I am just skeptical of your claim that sufferers of certain disorders are inherently abusive and evil. Treat people like individual people, judge them by their ACTIONS and not a disability they didn't choose to have. Yes, disorders impact people's behaviors, yes being aware of a person's mental illness helps identify warning signs, but to call a group, which DEFINITELY CONTAINS innocent people "inherently abusive" is incredibly harmful. I don't know your politics but I'm making the guess that you aren't a homophobe. Don't you remember how just a few decades ago there were all these "facts" "proving" that gay people are dangerous, and how that all turned out to be bullshit? Don't you see you're being tricked into bigotry?
@@Brxwn9There’s a difference between having no tolerance for bad behavior and writing a person off as inhuman the moment they have a diagnosis that’s stigmatized.
Narcissistics don't actually love themselves. They hate themselves so much its all they can think about
Which is also how they are most vulnerable to abuse.
@@theaureliasys6362 they are the abuser not the victim.
@@MPR2007they can be both, just like any other person
@@mavohq they were victim in childhood yes i do know about this. But after that they simply become a predator.
@@MPR2007watch the video? wut ur doing is quite literally what is trying to broken down. conflating "the abuser " with "the narcissist" is not helpful.
Hey remember a decade ago when people armchaired autism and treated neurodivergent people as inhuman because of the idea that they had "reduced or lack of empathy"?
Anyways. This comment section is gonna be a fascinating artifact to look at in 2034.
It tends to be the same shit. Especially with other Neurodivergent folks demonizing folks with NPD or even other Cluster B disorders basically forms a hierarchy of the "good" and "bad" kind of neurodivergent
Fascinating because people are now waking up to narcissists and in 10 years it’ll be taught about in schools so people don’t get suckered into being with narcs anymore 🫡🇺🇸🇬🇧
@@JT0007 I hope you find the self-awareness you desperately need.
@@JT0007what the fuck are you talking about
Logigal Falkacy! No comparrison to autism and NPD. Clinical NPD is the uncontrollable addiction to being emotionally abusive to those closest to them. Intellectuslly and morally dishonest to relativise being EXTREMELY EMOTIONSLLY ABUSIVE where it is pathological and harms the mental health of loved ones often causing COTSD not unlike domestic violence victims. Clinical experts have studied NPD individuals for decades, so false analogy to “armchair diagnoses” or misdiagnosis of Autism.
Shout it out for the people in the back: people with personality disorders are struggling too. There’s no such thing as a perfect victim or villain. You don’t need to be a narcissist to abuse someone and not all narcissists are abusers. Abuse is abuse. Struggle is struggle.
This. Not all ppl with NPD are abusers and not all abusers have NPD. It's so much more nuanced.
Here here!! Cheers to the understanding of context, complexity, and the fallacy of dichotomy.
@@ciaraskeleton do you have any evidence for this?
@@enricopucci1236What evidence would you be looking for? Or is your mind already made up?
@@ciaraskeleton Agreed! People often forget that society itself plays a role in abuse, like in the past when being a controlling husband was normalized. Not all of those people could've had a disorder. Hell, what's considered a disorder is also dependent on what a society thinks is normal- even the DSM5 has certain societal exceptions that disqualify someone from having that disorder.
as someone with a lot of npd traits who is constantly told i'm doomed to be irredeemably evil no matter how hard i work to keep them in check, thank you.
Who is telling you this? It’s not uncommon for actually disordered people to project their traits onto us. If you are actively working on these “traits” you were told you have, you might not be a narcissist if you actually care to try.
I was raised around many personality disordered people. They do not care to change, even a little, unless they want something from you.
Always consider the source before you accept someone claiming you are something evil.
We're not evil, and we can do better. I started to get better when I found even One good support who stuck by me while also telling me when I was being a shit. It can be done. I promise. You're not doomed, and you're not evil. Be safe out there.
@@saturdayschild8535 Why try to frame this as if the only people demonizing stigmatized personality traits/behaviors are inevitably the "actual" ones with said behavior? Just because your were hurt by dysfunctional people doesn't mean that they were "disordered" in the sense that op is, or that they were clinically disordered at all. It's an uncomfortable truth, but completely "normal", empathetic people do horrific shit every day, including spout bigotry and beat down on the mentally ill. Which is what "personality disordered people" are. Cluster b disorders are more than likely trauma-born disorders, manifestations of C-ptsd. A lot of academics have been leaning towards this idea for a while. The people who meet the criteria for these conditions have almost always been abused and/or exposed to a continuously hostile environment.
I know when emotions we've been really hurt it can feel good and even safe to rely on a scapegoat. If certain behaviors are the result of people being "disordered", then you just have to avoid those wrong people and everything will be fine. This kind of thought process only leads to people getting hurt, and even more people not getting the help they need to heal. Instead of assuming that op couldn't possibly be like what they say they are, maybe consider that your conception of narcissists is narrow, informed only by personal anecdotes, and could use some fresh perspective. I'd lurk around the npd subreddit and other spaces used by and for people with NPD. Take in their experiences, see the diverse spectrum of people with this condition and what it's like to live in their shoes. You might find they're more like you than you think. We are all only human.
@@rookregent5623 7 years alone. Still looking for one but of support...
@@rookregent5623that’s the thing about the term being thrown around so casually and sometimes it seems, used as an excuse to detach from anyone and everyone who causes the slightest inconvenience. In that kind of environment no one gets support and everyone is devalued, which are the very things that cause the disorder in the first place. In addition, people with the disorder themselves might feel more empowered to project onto others and excuse themselves from accountability. Obviously people need to be informed about what abuse looks like and know that they shouldn’t have to put up with it, but in general, we as a society need more understanding and stronger communities, and I feel that this trend has mainly had the opposite effect.
Pathologizing abuse not only stigmatizes mental illness and personality disorders, it makes people think "well, I'M not mental ill, i could never abuse someone!" This is coming from someone who was horrifically emotionally, physically, and on a few occasions, borderline sexually abused by their mother, who has a diagnosed personality disorder and is autistic. Guess what? I have the same personality disorder she has, and i might also be autistic. I make the choice not to harm those close to me. Abusing others is a choice, not a personality trait. And people who abuse and never admit it aren't necessarily incapable of self reflection. Humans just hate admitting we're wrong.
ahem EXACTLY
It's the same old tired tropes of villainizing the "other" to prop oneself up, as saying that they're "better" or even "special" when really neurotypical people can be horrible people too. Humans are humans and someone humans are horrible people, no pathologizing needed
Thank you!
I’ve literally seen people say that mentally ill people don’t harm others, people with personality disorders harm others. Like, way to both demonize personality disorders and completely ignore the fact that some people lash out as a result of their own pain.
@@larad9180 and like neurodivergent folks are more likely to BE victims of abuse then be perpetrators of it. Now yes neurodivergent folks are humans like everyone else and anyone who happens to be neurodivergent who does f*ucked up things should be held accountable for their actions however demonizing whole communities is definitely not the way to go. It's just another form of stigma as well as respectability politics
@@larad9180 Wouldn’t a personality disorder be considered a mental illness anyway?
FINALLY SOMEONE IS TALKING ABOUT THE NARCISSISM CONTENT INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX
FINALLY
i wish people would just talk about the cycle of abuse without dressing it up in terms they barely understand. it can hurt victims and their ability to accurately comprehend what is going on around them, because the buzzwords around narcissism are often sold as universally applicable truths, and they _are_ really comforting and cathartic for someone to hear - but they're not universal to every situation. they're a band-aid solution, not a true one.
So necessary. Absolutely.
There are a few other creators who have talked about it too
There are some other great channels with nuanced views on this subject. Tim Fletcher and heal NPD are just two channels that offer more nuance.
Psychology has always been coopted by the unwashed masses for 1. coping with difficult situations and people, 2. justifying their shitty behaviors
Ppl really be blaming people with personality disorders for everything wrong with the world like neurotypical people are incapable of being assholes. Sometimes people are just mean!!! And the reason isn't related to them being a "dark empath" or whatever, it's just them choosing to be mean
Yeah, you can call an abuser an abuser without diagnosing them.
Our dad has NPD and he was extremely abusive towards us in our childhood, which is why we developed DID.
Our partner now as well has NPD and they're the healthiest relationship we've ever had 😊
They're incredibly loving and sweet and supportive. Of course they have their struggles as anyone with a lot of trauma probably has, but they've never been abusive.
We think that the main difference between them and our dad and what's the "real" cause of most abuse, we think, is that our dad believed that he had the right to control us.
This dynamic of power over and ownership that gets promoted by our society is the driving force behind all sorts of horror. When you own something and think that you have a right to this thing working according to your wishes, it's only "reasonable" to use force if it doesn't.
Plus in a patriarchal society men are taught to view themselves as having the right to control others
Yeah. Good luck and be careful.
I've got BPD and one of my close friends is in the process of getting diagnosed as a system.
They also have BPD, and while some of their alters have more symptoms than others, overall there's more overlap in trauma than I expected. We have some similar experiences with dissociation, lack of emotional regulation, and emotional flashbacks.
I think my dad had BPD, but it skewed more narcissistic, so it's possible it was NPD.
Understanding that neither them nor myself are the same as the people who hurt us was a massively important part of self-awareness. Like you guys, my friends and I both had fathers who felt entitled, like they owned us, though they differed in the kind of control they used.
Parents who don't view children as people will always be a huge contributor to childhood trauma. And unfortunately, you're right that society seems to accept it.
I hope your relationship continues to thrive. I'm not sure where you guys are in the process of healing or what the end goal is, but I wish you the best in it. ❤
@@EclecticallyEccentric if you look at the literature, men with BPD are going to come out differently.
Lots of the literature suggests men with bpd often times don't make it passed their teens. If they do, it's very similar to Anakin Skywalker. The event that killed most men, caused a severe antisocial and Narcissistic trait overlay, but it's not actual NPD.
Men will just have more sociopathic and complete detachment, due to being a man with emotional needs at all is already frowned upon, bpd emotional needs for men are just seen as needy, weak and entitled. Even from BPD women 😂
@@AnimosityIncarnateI've read about BPD in men, especially coming across as having more NPD traits. That is one of the reasons I think he likely had BPD, but I understand it's possible it was NPD instead. I'm hesitant to say with certainty as I'm not a mental health professional.
My father seemed to switch between cold and detached to warm, but too often that warmth was burning rage.
As for viewing male emotions as weak, I will tell you I lost respect for my father as a teenager.
I still feared his rage. But I did not respect him. Because I was expected to control my emotions in a way he didn't. I don't believe he was entitled to respect from me at this point. I loved my father, but I hated his hypocrisy.
I do feel sorry for him, in a way. I wish he'd sought help and been able to accept he needed it.
I definitely agree, culture and the way emotions are viewed in relation to gender is a large part of the problem.
I've had close male friends cry around me, and I'm much more comfortable with that than with aggression. I didn't look down on them, but I can't speak for anyone but myself.
I likely wouldn't have the same level of care or patience with a man displaying anger in an aggressive way.
Unfortunately, anger is what society deems acceptable for men to show.
When doing research into my own neurological health, I realized a ton of 'narcissistic' traits are easily explained by traumatized low/mid-support needs ASD. Or are just traits neurotypicals just find annoying. Stinks of the adult form of 'Oppositional Defiant Disorder' (aka, 'i-give-up-on-trying-to-understand-this-child's-experience' disorder).
Edit: YES, I love how you pointed out that the literal criteria are assuming intent of actions one might be powerless to control. Any disorder being marked by 'unwillingness' rather than 'inability' is ridiculous.
"'i-give-up-on-trying-to-understand-this-child's-experience' disorder"
yes!! ODD is used to excuse the adults in children's lives from actually listening and being curious
That last sentence goes hard
In older, undiagnosed autistic generations, where self-denial and strict masking could lead to a fake / Potemkin persona, pushing that model of coping on one's undiagnosed autistic children could create generational trauma. Depending on the degree and intensity of the demands on the child to mask, it could become outright child abuse, though I am sure there were milder cases, too, and some elder autistics can do the work of discovering and accepting themselves and apologizing and making amends to their children, for example, when their grandchildren get diagnosed.
My father was most likely ADHD+SAD, my mother most likely autistic. I, a tail-end boomer, was both beaten, berated and pestered at home and in school for behaving "wrong" (toe-walking, failing eye-contact, food aversions, refusing "neat and girly enough" clothes, being "weird," etc.). I got diagnosed AutDHD after I turned 40. My firstborn is also AutDHD, my youngest ADHD.
My father thankfully died young. My mother reacted with anger when I told her that we had started to seek a diagnosis for the firstborn and myself. When both our ADHD diagnoses were established, I told her about them. She said "Aha," changed the subject and never mentioned ADHD or neurodivergence again. So when the youngest kid got their ADHD dx and we got our autism dxs a few years later, I didn't even bother to mention them.
Both my parents were (and my mother still is) the most deeply unhappy and unauthentic people that I have ever known. They have both always been in strict denial about that anything concerning themselves or their offspring could be unusual or not "normal." Both were certainly traumatized as children, and they were also traumatizing to have as parents.
Sometimes it's a both - and dynamic. For an abused, neglected and/or unaccepted child it doesn't really matter what lies behind the ill treatment. Personally, I don't care if the abuse was "narcissistic" or "sadistic" or "sociopathic" or something else - the operative term was abuse. I have rather been focusing on healing since 1990.
Same! I used to worry I was a narcissist, particularly when I was being emotionally abused because I'd be accused of many "narcissistic" traits and behaviors, and genuinely was concerned what if they're right? After I got diagnosed ASD it all made sense.
Tbh, I was pretty pissed when I got diagnosed. Like so many people made me feel SO bad about myself and I worried so much about whether I was an inherently bad person but the whole time I was just a little brain-weird and getting judged so hard for it. Messed up.
Misdiagnosys exists. That doesn't mean narcissism isn't a real thing.
People use the pronoun ‘I’ and there’ll be someone with a ‘Narcissist’ diagnosis locked and ready.
Quite literally happened to me over message once and I was so confused because I read the message back and couldn't figure out how I was meant to structure it any differently
Are you sure it is ‘People’ and not you? One might say you’re projecting no? Lol
@@basicjenkins Agree 100%. The "saying 'I' so much" thing is boIoks. It's armchair psychologists who take DSM definitions & break them down by NON-scientific language. Like as if saying "I hope you're feeling better" is 'narcissistic' cos a "normal" [>_>] person would have said instead: "Hopefully you're feeling better." Nvm that's a more passive phrasing, and the _point_ is that you should feel better and you are cared about; these armchair psychs claim that the 2nd, "non-I" way, "you wouldn't putting yourself at the centre, cos *'I'* hope?! Even my feeling better is about YOU??" It's silly, but it's worse than that. People go WAY too far with this stuff, like to a point that can be damaging to interpersonal relationships.
I'm watching the video as I type this so not halfway through, but fwiw though I don't like the pathologisation of everything. Like there was a Behind the Bastards pod on some bastard who secretly harmed a lot of people, and the guest, vexed as to why _like that,_ asked the host, "Why woyld be do this? Do you think he did this [awful thing] cos of being kind of narcissistic, like to be remembered?" (Fwiw, context clues made it obvious he meant it as the trait descriptor, not as NPD, and further, host Robert shot it down anyway & even noted it's not about having a mental health issue, that seeking "which" is a wasted endeavour.) It's prudent to note that there is a difference between the trait of narcissism and the disorder, NPD, a full-bodied diagnosis well beyond "person has narcissistic traits". (And with an unfortunate name, but that's the DSM. "Personality disorders" is kinda crap, and I don't have one so I'm not taking personal offence.)
It's made yet worse by the increasingly bold self-ID narcissists who come out of the woodwork to write essay comments about being maligned for being NPD narcissists is "literally the same as maligning someone for having depression or cancer, but they only do it with NPD". There's a gray area, but it's not the same cos the issue with people who cause harm is the harm they cause, not the idea that they have NPD, and they want to be excused carte blanche, across the board, for the overt harm they cause to others - not recognising that "we can't change who we are, but we can learn to recognise and change behaviours that harm others". True with NPD and "non-pathological" narcissism and depression and anything else, but one is not like the others. The issue is that it's not the same when having been at the hands of a narcissistic betrayer who caused lasting harm and refused to change cos they wouldn't even recognise that they were causing harm. But it's unhelpful to express offence at something no one said, like (to quote one) "I'm sick of everyone saying that all r[SA]ists have NPD!" That was in response to the guest asking if narcissism (not NPD; context clues) might have been behind why a man wronged so many people. No one said "NPD = will SA" is a thing I've never seen or heard anyone say outside that comment alleging it.
That said, yeah, we shouldn't be flattening people into caricatures according to which diagnosis they have, or any such narrow category. People just insist on doing that. I talk of narcissists in my life, but I'm talking of the harm they cause c/o narcissistic behaviour & refusal to seek help or even accept they have a problem, nvm should change. There are narcissists I've known who have that insecurity, the "feeling trash so lashing out at others to make them feel like trash", but the problem isn't getting them a diagnosis (if they haven't), it's getting them to stop harming people, and not ending up incapacitated from the defensive wounds endured with every attempt at helping out or even just being a friend to them. It's not the NPD, it's the narcissism, the excuses, the selfishness, the lack of consideration for others... I'm not cutting off someone because they have NPD; I do it for allll the other stuff, cos even I don't deserve such mistreatment.
Sorry for rambling.
@@witchcraftandlizardryLiterally it's an armchair diagnosis thing, notably common in true crime. "Her letter claimed to be about her friend, but note how she starts every sentence with 'I' and talks about _her_ feelings." Like the "I hope you feel better" example in my long ramble above.
I don't have NPD, btw, and have suffered at the hands of people who do, so I'm not getting defensive (as in feeling personally attacked)... I guess I am defending OP's post cos it's very normal and you're sounding like the armchair """"experts"""" who jump in like "THERE! NPD! 17/20!" Do you need a mirror, or?
@@mookinbabysealfurmittens sorry I thought it was clear I was joking I was gonna use a tone indicator but I thought because I was responding to a joke it would be implied. I was armchair psycho-analyzing but was careful not to use ‘I’ pronoun myself lol but yea I know all about and I’ve noticed a decline in the use of the word where like in 2017 it was a big thing like I noticed ppl have shifted to saying toxic or abusive instead and after I recovered from abuse myself many years ago I am disinterested in the topic and don’t think it’s wrong for ppl to try to understand their experiences but I hate the diagnosing or when true crime throws around psychopath or sociopath because any of these diagnosis don’t inherently make a person evil or bad. I have periods of struggling with empathy cause of my autism but one can choose to do what is socially right like you don’t need to have empathy or guilt remorse etc etc to be a good person and it can really just be a form of neurodivergence and a self aware person does not need to have themselves stigmatized this way just because some are not interested in integrating into society and social stuff etc or something I kind of forget where I was going w this
One thing that's perhaps important to clarify, is that an NPD diagnosis (just like all other personality diagnoses) isn't just about checking those nine boxes in the DSM. First of all, once your actual evaluation gets started, there's a whole lot more boxes to check, but more importantly: the purpose of a diagnosis is to help patients cope with and possibly alleviate difficulties and suffering caused to them personally and/or to people around them. This is not just what makes the diagnosis functional; it's literally what the diagnosis is for.
The diagnosis does effectively mean that NPD traits are considered undesireable, at least in a clinical sense, but that's not the same thing as categorizing someone as a "bad person." On the contrary, an NPD diagnosis helps us think of the patient as suffering the consequences of an adverse environment, among other things. If anything, this attempts to replace the overly simplistic idea that they're simply a "bad person."
But I definitely agree that the dehumanizing pop psych gone haywire online is a problem.
Exactly this! I feel like I'm constantly clarifying to people what a diagnosis is in a clinical sense. People really overly equate them to a personality test rather than a tool to help treat people who are experiencing very real, difficulties that affect their ability to function.
aaa
i agree with everything you said except the last sentence, we wouldn't have crazy people without pop psych
The "average" person isn't a clinician so the chances for misinterpreting information to confirm their own bias is higher. I wonder if changing the language from "narcissist" which carries a negative connotation to something neutral might deter the "average" person from misinterpretation?
Words like self-centered, selfish, abusive, cruel, sadistic, unempathetic, antagonistic, hostile - those are all sufficient to describe choices and behaviours without labelling anyone. We DO need to understand abuse and how it it's perpetrated, creating some kind of Big Bad isn't part of that
What sucks is that narcissism and antisocial personalities can be hard to differentiate in our materialistic society, as such society does not value humanity at all.
Period.
What is the point of saying "materialistic society" in this context. It adds no extra meaning and using such a strange buzzword like this sounds pretentious
@@derpkipper
Because "materialistic" is a quality of society. Society doesn't have to be materialistic, it's just an emphasized quality.
"Materialistic" is an adjective. You put that before a noun and it describes something. I have not seen the buzzwords "materialistic society" anywhere else, have you? If you are going to bat for semantics, maybe think a little before you post.
@@derpkipper You have lived your entire life in the US, right?
Especially under the capitalist and colonialist frameworks that sees human lives as labor to make profit off of
Narcissism is rooted deep within wounded insecurities they likely refused to address nor aware of. I'm glad to watch a video like this which paints a narcissist in a human light.
I have OCD and before I was diagnosed I would watch dr ramani videos and obsess over whether or not I was a DIRTY NARCISSIST. I would try as hard as I could to be an “empath” and it led to so many abusive relationships in my life. Striving to be an “empath” is so bad for u
I had to unsubscribe from her cause all I would do was watch her and go… i am disgusting how do I fix this i must count to 8 several times right now
The only reason i dont do this now is bc 150mg luvox and 200mg magnesium lets go
@@janeparker9663 glad you are now at a better place!
As a narcissist, thank you for making this video. A lot of personality disorder circles focus on activism in such a way that we say “don’t use the word narcissistic, it’s ableist to people with NPD” instead of saying “maybe there shouldn’t be something called Narcissistic Personality Disorder”
We have people speaking about it, but it seems like it’s only people with personality disorders talking about the issue.
Shout out to that one tumblr post that goes "Doctors could name a disorder "Whiny B*tch Disorder" and I assure you that the reaction in the ND community at large would not be "what the f*ck is wrong with the psychiatric field and how they think of mentally ill people, we should not allow that name and diagnosis", but rather "PSA: Please don't use 'whiny' and 'b*tch' as insults, that's ableist against people with Whiny B*tch Disorder!"".
Shout out to that one tumblr post that goes "Doctors could name a disorder "Whiny B--ch Disorder" and I assure you that the reaction in the ND community at large would not be "what the f--k is wrong with the psychiatric field and how they think of mentally ill people, we should not allow that name and diagnosis", but rather "PSA: Please don't use 'whiny' and 'b--ch' as insults, that's ableist against people with Whiny B--ch Disorder!"".
@@alejandrojerboaYikes all around
I have bipolar I and became genuinely distressed at one point because of how many boxes I ticked in the covert category when depressed and communal when I'm manic. I became legitimately concerned that I'd duped people into thinking I have a "good" mental illness when I actually had a "bad" one, for some reason characterising NPD as "bad" specifically because of damaging and superficial content.
I appreciate your nuanced take with Dr. Ramani. When I was living with an abusive family member, I watched her videos daily because they made me feel seen and gave me a “why” for my family member’s actions. I escaped that situation, and I haven’t really watched her videos since then. I don’t think my family member would be diagnosed with NPD, and he’s probably not even a “narcissist” but the patterns of abuse were similar enough that her advice helped. I think a lot of people feel similarly, her videos are like a form of free therapy for folks in the thick of it.
I’ve always had some issues with Dr. Ramani’s approach, but I think she’s probably the best narcissist content creator, and I only ever really watched her. Cant even imagine the hellscape of pop psychology on tiktok
I suggest you check out prof. Sam Vaknin, a diagnosed narcisisst university professor. After hearing him youll think dr ramani is even more pop psychology, still very good for the first realisation shocks, but in order to understand narcisissm correctly, vaknin is not to be ignored
@@zazou7457 Vaknin is interesting. I take him with a grain of salt too. He sounds very good, cites a lot for sources but do you look them up and analyse them? I don't lol. But his ideas about introjects and how people with NPD think (they don't gaslight, they can't, they believe their own delusions) has helped me to take the behaviour of my abuser and her flying monkeys a lot less personally. His credentials are... interesting
What really bothers me is that it's become a buzzword. Literally any time someone comes out with an ab*se story they call them a narcissist and I'm like bro, 😭 especially when they're not straight or cis. Not every single person on the internet is a narcissist and you don't even know them! I myself had a brother that we believe to have npd and it was different because i lived with him. I also used to believe one of my parents was a narcissist until I got told more lore and I realized they were just messed up 🤷🏼♀ yall gotta stop calling everyone with self esteem a narcissist and stop calling strangers that in general.
I mean most personality disorders, especially NPD are believed to stem from abuse. So both things could be true. Your parent could be a narcissist. It could be a result of their experiences. It usually is.
Agreed- like certain people will use it as a buzzword when referring to trans people because apparently wanting to be comfortable in your own body is selfish.
That reminds me of the time I was watching a YT video where the creator had used a very obvious blurring filter. A lot of people in the comments kept going, "Wow! You look great! Must be because you're so unproblematic!" All I said was, "Guys, in this video he's obviously using a filter that erases every single line on his face lol. I think he looks good in general, but come on."
And I immediately had a few people respond with, "you're a narcissist!" It was very weird.
I often think narcissistic tendencies develop from heavily toxic and abusive environments which is sad in itself. You’ve been abused and now everyone wants to judge you for micro aggressions based on a label you were given to help you manage your life. Doesn’t seem fair
Depends. Sometimes they're macroaggressions or gaslighting your romantic partner. There's a huge lack of nuance on this issue. But for people with truly highly narcissistic personalities they're definitely not micro aggressions.
@@IshtarNike I think people who are narcissistic and are getting help deserve support. People who engage in aggressive behaviour while taking no accountability are often the ones who get negative attention and deservedly so.
Personality disorders are often formed from trauma, so you're definitely on the mark there.
@@IshtarNikecan you clarify which definition of gaslighting you're using here? thank you
@@Lala-lp1uywhere in the world do you see narcissists getting help?
What I'd really like to see in everyday speech is describing people as manipulative, as bullies, as abusive, as *doing specific things wrong* that *anyone might do regardless of mental health.* Is my mom a narcissist? That's hard to say. Did my mom do something manipulative? That's much easier to evaluate and gives you more practical information tbh.
So. We"re pretty sure my father is an actual diagnosable narcissist. But as someone who's autistic and sick of hearing that autistic people are assholes or use their diagnosis as an excuse to be assholes, I'm fully aware narcissism is not what makes my father a shitty person. He just actively chooses to do the shitty thing at every opportunity and just as you can have a diagnosis and learn not to do that, you can be perfectly fine and still do it. Distancing ourselves from certain people by deciding they're not human keeps us blind to stuff we might need to be vigilant about in ourselves, I.e. I could never be that much of a jerk because I'm not a narcissist. Like yes actually, you can. Learn to see it so you can own it and fix it if it happens.
Exactly. I have AuDHD and am basically a big goofy teddy bear. My ex is likely NPD or bipolar or whatever I’ll never know ow because he refuses to go to therapy for any reason. The only thing I need to know is that he chose to be the absolute most awful husband again and again for 10 years nonstop and blamed me for all of it whilst also somehow saying he knew it was all him. 🤷♀️🤷♀️. As a person who has lived with him for 10 years he certainly seems to love himself more than any other person on earth. He is always first even when he lets someone go ahead. Trust you will be paying for it on the backend.
As someone who did deal with full on narrcistic abuse, they were diagnosed and everything, its insane how often that word is tossed around.
Sometimes people are just selfish, sometimes their self centered yes, but none of that makes them narcissistic. Hell, I had the idea narcissists are obsessed with themselves is because they truly fully adore themselves, when, no. Not even close.
My narc actually openly told me how much he disliked himself. They act as though thier above others because they see themselves as so weak they out others down instead.
Narcs are deeply insecure people, they stare into the mirror for hours on end not because they love themselves but because they're possibly pointing out every flaw within themselves to project onto you/the victim.
It's still bad for them, does this give them the right to abuse others? God absolutely not, but it's called a disorder for a reason, thats why therapy for it exists, because at the end of the day they are still human.
You/victims don't need to diagnose people as anything, you don't need to call your ahuser a narcissist, instead just call it what it was. Abuse, because diagnoses or not you were still hurt. But that doesn't make them a narcissist, it just makes them an abuser.
Therapyspeak is the bane of our civilisation.
I don’t think it’s that bad. It’s just skibidi toilet for a larger demographic
No it's not, you're gaslighting me! >:(
(Sorry lol)
It's more so the general population outside a given community hearing of terms and overusing them so much that they end up getting appropriated in contexts that aren't even actually the correct contexts to use them in
This is a new age of education for the masses, we're seeing a lot of people learn new terms, misunderstand them, then correct their misunderstanding in real time.
Thanks for having me in the video! I'm just sitting down to watch it now, but I'm looking forward to it. I love that more creators are starting to show a more humanizing lens to NPD, opposed to demonizing it.
luv ur tiktoks!! was literally so excited to see u as a guest in this vid
I wish all these creators would just start talking about abuse without the psychological labels. Because anyone of any neurotype can be abusive and the signs of abuse (DARVOS) can be picked up regardless of the specific neurotypes involved. It would save a lot of abilism and also help more people.
are you a psychiatrist?
I never thought my narcissistic mother wasn’t human. It’s just that she was hard pressed to view me as one.
💯💯💯💯. I understand what people are saying about humanizing people with NPD when you’ve been harmed to terribly by someone who likely had NPD because if they are off the chain then you aren’t human to them.
Yeah, I feel this deeply. The first thing I thought about when I finally got therapy was "my older sister needed the psychological help more than me, she was hurt far worse." But even if that was true, the abuse that she heaped onto me because her own issues still leaves me paralyzed in my mid-20s, and to this day she still struggles to see me as a human being.
I spent 20 years of my life having to explain to everyone else that my sister is a human being who needs help. I do my best to help her. It doesn't change the fact that she also is the person who repeatedly wished me dead and tried to make that a reality.
Sighs.
I once asked in the comments of this psychologist's comment something like "What should I do if I see those traits in myself? How do I stop?" And his answer was very hopeless, almost saying narcissists are just unfixable.
That attitude is scary. Specially considering how the people I see being accused or that or manipulation and so on, are usually neurodivergent and have other issues.
I used to see those videos and be like "oh no am I a narcissist??" and that was really not a great time, being overly vigilant of my own emotions.
EDIT: this was to share that overly vague and generalising pop psychology videos can affect people with anxiety in different ways, and if you experienced something similar you're not alone.
If you’re worried about being a narcissist, you probably aren’t, you know lack of empathy being sort of central to the idea.
@@ookamiblade6318 that’s what I concluded too, but you know how the anxious mind can be.
@@ookamiblade6318NPD is about projecting a perfect self into the world because of how much you hate yourself though? Someone with narcissism can very much be worried about it
@@ookamiblade6318this is not the take you think it is. A disorder that is largely about needing validation can include needing validation that you are a good and mentally well person. Being obsessed with how you come off includes being obsessed with coming off well. Being insecure of your identity is the core of a large amount of personality disorders.
If someone recognizes symptoms in themselves to the point they're worried they have a disorder, even if they conclude they dont have the disorder, it doesn't meant they're "safe" it means there could be some behaviors to work on.
@@minni_sung9437 girl come on
I observed that if you put the key word narcissist. it gains a lot of viewers. And sometimes, even psychiatrists or well known therapists talked about the how to deal with narcissistic person but never asking the questions "Why?" The only person that shed lights in to being narcissistic is Dr Gabor Mate... According to him, they are just very traumatized people... I've been thinking about this, this past few months
Yeah most mental illnesses come from a mix of genetics and environment. We don’t know the exact cause of most mental illnesses currently, that’s not really something we could ethically test, but that’s the best guess we have based on the research we have right now. That includes personality disorders. Including NPD and ASPD. As someone who’s been through severe abuse and likely has a PD, I can attest that it most likely is trauma for most people. But that is just an opinion without research.
@@saltydinonuggies1841 100%
18:17 A critical hazard of narcissism is that they usually are too sensitive to be seriously self critical.
Narcissists who are self aware have overcome the biggest hurdle to reform. With out first doing that, they won't get better.
They can seek others for help, but no one can fix them if they don't seek reform.
It's why they're so rarely seen in the therapy room. When they go to therapy, it's usually because they've been forced by a loved one, or because they want to recruit the therapist to help them "fix" everyone around them.
I am so torn on this issue, since all this talk about narcissism has allowed me to realise the emotional abuse my mom and I have gone through. I would not have been able to recognise the situation otherwise, and would not have known to seek help.
At the same time, I don’t want any person’s humanity taken away, and am afraid that this content might be doing just that.
The problem is it shouldn't have been called narcissistic abuse in the first place. It's psychological & emotional abuse, it's manipulation, and there's a lot more specific words for behaviors considered inherent to narcissistic abuse (which they are not.) Anyone with any mental disorder (or none) can be an abuser.
You’re absolutely right! The wording also implies the abuse is inherent to narcissism, which seems really problematic and unhelpful.
I would like to retract my initial comment defending content that demonises narcissists.
That headline, "Therapy speak is everywhere, but it may make us less empathetic" was jarring but resonated with something I've noticed in myself & others: a inclination to categorizing people, either for how they might hurt us, help us, even be useful to us, etc. And given practice, it becomes habitual to the point of making judgments at a glance, typically as a defensive tactic.
I dunno. Just something that jumped out at me 😅
This was great btw
Humans are gonna human.
I think it's wonderful *in theory* that many immensely-helpful psychological concepts have bled into the general consciousness and that people feel more comfortable disclosing their struggles and diagnoses---but, in practice, this has resulted in some people misusing or abusing these terms and ideas and others taking cruel advantage of other people's sympathy, compassion, and desire to understand.
Not the “Is my mother a narcissist?” 💀
Bro how many comments you got
I smell someone who is lucky enough to have never dealt with narcissistic abuse and hasn't had to deal with that type of trauma. Might be better to get off that high horse though.
@@derpkipper “narcissistic abuse” is just emotional abuse that dehumanizes narcissists
A quick perusal of r/raisedbynarcissists will give anyone questioning a good idea what a narcissistic mother is like o.o
@@vrubin no, narcissistic abuse dehumanizes the victim of the abuse, lol. That is what narcissistic abuse is, you slowly understand that you are not a real person to them, just a useful appliance. It’s not the same as being abused by a person with depression or anxiety, because they show remorse, see your perspective, and you understand their intentions are real. Narcissists consciously (and subconsciously) manipulate and see reality and other people in a way that is completely inverted and solipsistic and is literally not capable of seeing another’s perspective. Narcissists CAN choose to not do bad things, their neural circuitry is not deficient in that respect, its just that they don’t. In other words they abuse consciously in some respect, but without fully understanding why they do these bad things. They do know they are doing bad things though. That’s what is so fucked up about it, they know they are doing it, you ask them to stop, and they don’t. Because it doesn’t benefit them. You don’t know what you are talking about.
As someone who has watched a ton of Dr. Ramini, I would say its better not to treat her videos as explaining npd, especially not clinically. If you have or might have npd don't watch any of her videos.
Her videos are for people who aren't sure if they are in abusive relationships or not. She was very healpful to me in navigating getting out of a bad relationship but I agree with this video, the definition she uses is basically jerk disorder and is broad enough to include almost any abuser. But sometimes, when your leaving a bad relationship, you need hundreds of hours of an auntie telling you it's not your fault and you're not alone.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS.
I've been saying for years that NPD is not "evil person disease" but I always got hit with downvotes and people telling me I'm either a narcisstic abuser myself or an apologist or both. It's completely absurd. Thank you so much.
im so glad to finally see a more mainstream creator talking about npd in a more nuanced and unsensational way. the villainization of narcissism and conflation of the disorder with abuse hurts both people with stigmatised mental illnesses and abuse victims. as someone with personality disorders (not npd but still) im very excited for ppl to finally realise this and move away from this awful trend
methinks that one of the other side effects of pairing a specific pathology with abuse ala "narcissistic abuse" is that it keeps people from recognizing abusive tendencies within themselves. you are not immune to becoming an abuser, but that is not a death sentence. othering abusive behaviors as something you couldn't possibly do because you don't share the pathology is legitimately harmful
Thank you! I've been trying to explain my discomfort with using the word "narcissist" as shorthand for "they have too many traits that I perceive as self-centered and difficult to deal with" and just stopping the convo there without acknowledging the traits. Maybe because then we'd have to face the fact that there are reasons for those traits, and make a conscious decision to try holding space for them or dismiss them altogether.
It kinda seems like using "narcissist" is a way to avoid having to directly make the *choice* of whether to consider the human behind the "narcissist" entity as a whole person with experiences that led them here.
Lately, I've been trying to ask myself and others "what do you mean by that?" and trying to go further. Usually I find myself worried I'll be accused of defending "the narcissist" when really I'm trying to dig a bit deeper to see if we *have* to see the person as non-complex and non-human for the sake of the conversation.
For me I was being emotionally abused for years. I bent over backwards for this person. I spent years trying to consider the person she was behind those traits. She was unable to change. At the end of the day nothing I did, no matter how much space I held, she gaslighted and invalidated me.
Second person I met with some sort of "issue" was a boss who routinely acted like work was chill and there were no deadlines. Then tore my work apart and made me cry in the office. Then gaslighted me and asked me why I thought I'd done anything wrong when she'd been on a 10 minute (softly spoken) rant nitpicking everything I did. She then ran to upper management while I was signed off with stress to get me transferred to another team because of my "performance and behaviour." I had receipts so luckily the impact was low. But her behaviour was eerily reminiscent of my wife. She feigned emotional closeness, and actively pried into my personal life to get me to open up to her. But as soon as she made me cry she started ignoring my messages. Like I was basically apologising to her and she was giving me the silent treatment after she made ME cry. I realised, after a minute, that she was punishing me with the silent treatment. I wouldn't have figured that out without learning about NPD. Even if she doesn't have it it was useful to know.
Like I have no doubt the term is over used. But having made a study of the diagnostic criteria and gone over all the information I know I think I have a decent hunch about these people.
The key here is, what does me holding space for them do? Yeah my boss I didn't know that long. But she exhibited lots of similar signs. Another interesting thing is that what she did to me had no benefit to her. Like with some people the nastiness makes material sense. But when it's like ego based or so personal then you can't really negotiate that with people. You also can't see it coming because it's so irrational. My manager got nothing material out of that and lost her only direct report. Made herself look bad to the rest of the team all because she somehow couldn't bring herself to just help me do my work. I would literally talk to my wife for almost an hour in a calm methodical voice to get her to understand why her words upset me and she couldn't take responsibility for anything. And to me, as a survivor of her abuse, I'm just not interested in holding more space for people like that. The NPD model works to explain the phenomenon. I know why she has it. Her mum abused her in the same way she abused me. I was constantly trying to make up for that abuse. And all she did was take more, and then call me lazy for it. Personally I don't go around calling her a narcissist to people. But I describe her behaviours accurately. And if you happen to know about narcissistic personalities and narcissistic abuse then it's a useful term to describe a suite of related behaviours. I come from a science background and I understand that sometimes two models can be equally "true." I think this is one of those times.
In the abstract I hope these people can get help. But personally I'm not convinced that a personality style that is characterised by such deeply abusive behaviours shouldn't carry a warning label. Being a cis straight guy does, for example. And for good reason. It's not like cis men wake up and decide to be abusers (yes I know lots of abuse is a conscious decision z I've read Bancroft, but personality disorders are similar. That behaviour counts as conscious). It's also a form of socialisation. But correctly, we've decided that that's largely not the main issue at the moment. Protecting survivors is. That's where I come down on this. People shouldn't be labelled willy nilly. But this kind of abuse is serious and needs to be taken seriously.
Edit: I do agree with the point about the industrial complex around the term which is definitely not good.
@IshtarNike I think I hear you. I don't mean that holding space for someone should mean accepting abuse and excusing the abuse with the abuser's trauma stories while ignoring your own needs (nor that if you dont hold space for your abuser that you're doing something bad). There's plenty of people I don't speak to anymore because of my own experiences with them. I also do not know you and am not telling you specifically to "hold space" for your abusers' emotions. That would be pretty messed up and upsetting.
My general statements will not apply to your specific relationship dynamics with abusers in your life. I don't have answers for you specifically. I'm also not referring to narcissism as a diagnosis given by a medical professional to a patient. I'm specifically referring to when it's used in a casual context to describe someone they don't like, based on an idea that the person is just too self-centered for one's liking.
I kinda only covered the first part- recognizing the reasons. I don't have an idea on what everyone should do after that because of how complex, varied, and personal that process is. We all have different capacities at different times in our lives for different people we feel are worth that kind of effort, and I think that's okay.
I've been trying to re-evaluate my own process on these things. What does/could holding space look like in practice? Who is allowed to hold that space? What do we do with it? Am I going to be mad at people who choose to hold that space for someone who has hurt me? If so, why? If not, why? (These are questions for myself, and just for example of where my mind is at here.)
It sounds like you recognized the reasons and made your decisions on whether it was safe to stay around those people to even think about "working it out" (which I know is not possible to do with *everyone* we come across). I fully believe you shouldn't feel any guilt for decisions made to protect yourself from an abuser. It's hard to know what to say, cause I am still very much working on my own trauma responses to things and healing from those abusive experiences. But I hope you are finding yourself having more days of feeling safe and okay as time goes on.
@@IshtarNikejust checking behaviors on a DSM checklist does not actually make someone have NPD, this is the the biggest misconception. Those traits are correlational first of all, and second of all in order to get diagnosed and full on IN PERSON assessment of various sectors has to be done.
I so appreciate you making this video. I’m a licensed therapist who is diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. One of my biggest sources of distress in life has come from coming to terms being labeled BPD…and that is specifically because for my entire career I have heard what my therapist peers say about people with personality disorders “behind the scenes” Kylee really hit the nail on the head when she shared why the stigma is so unnecessarily difficult to navigate.
I feel the most important thing you said was in your voiceover note about how people who have been abused don’t owe their abusers anything, and deserve help and safety. And with that said, trying to paint people with broad brushes and limit them down to a label strips them of their humanity- and that’s not making any of us safer.
I especially appreciate you being willing to tackle such a potential backlash inducing topic in such a responsible and nuanced way- in a way more responsible way than I see most content creators licensed to practice therapy exercising. That is notable…
Thank you! ❤
I can understand why Dr. Ramani’s videos are so popular. I once had a friend breakup that went horribly bad. I set a hard boundary while he was treating me badly, and he suddenly unleashed all these insults on me that had to do with a lot of personal things I was going through. It was clear that whenever I talked about any personal pain or hardships, he stocked those things up to use them to hurt me. It didn’t hurt me, I was too freaked out to be hurt. It seemed like a crazy thing to do. I told another friend that I couldn’t understand why someone would do that, and he said “oh well, he’s a narcissist.” After that, if I met someone who manipulated people by pushing at their weaknesses or insecurities, I would say “oh that’s a narcissist” and stay away from them.
But eventually, through working on my boundaries in therapy, I realized that the reason to stay away from those people wasn’t because of some diagnosis that I made up. It was because they were jerks. I don’t like people who are manipulative, and I shouldn’t hang out with people I don’t like. I think Dr. Ramani is successful in part because it’s so much easier to say “stay away from this person because they are evil” than it is to examine why you get into bad relationships.
But also, this doesn’t mean anyone should flip this and start diagnosing people who follow Dr. Ramani as people with boundaries issues. Sometimes people get into a bad relationship for no other reason than bad luck, not everything is a pathological issue.
as someone who has strong narcissistic traits, and likely has covert npd its so important to destigmatize this disorder and rid of any misconceptions surrounding it. for starters, something that seems to fly pass a lot of people is the fact that not every single person with npd is the same, self aware narcissists exist, healed narcissists exist, not every single narcissist is abusive. the reason so many people don’t seek treatment is because of the stigma around the disorder and how many mental health professionals don’t want to deal with it. personally, i would not consider myself abusive or manipulative as i see no need for it. i care about others, but i do center myself. i developed these traits due to trauma, and self awareness has not come easy to me, only recently in adulthood have i gained it. i hit 7 out of 9 marks on the dsm criteria for it and yet, it will probably take a long time before my claims are taken seriously. there are so many times where i actively think that i don’t want to get better, that i like being this way, but i see how it affects people’s perception of me when my traits do happen to come out and i don’t like it. so while i’ve gotten good at masking my traits that is not going to be enough for me, and i’m on the road to seeking help. i am a person with a strong moral code that wants to care about others, and there are a handful of people that i do care for, deeply so. i recognize that other people’s emotions are real, and that they are genuine, but that part of me that feels uncomfortable and annoyed with them shines through a lot even if i’m not verbalizing it. i’m autistic, have ocd and a potential cluster-c/mood disorder on top of these traits so my presentation is a lot different than others might be. i just implore people to open their minds and listen. thank you.
I feel like the complexity of narcissist shows how important it is to remember not to get consumed with labels. Narratives and their nuances help so much more. There are people who are even more vilified than narcissists (psychopaths) and it is only a subset who are dangerous and it is actions like torturing animals that are a greater signal than a diagnosis.
I was diagnosed ASD level 2 last year, but as a teen I was diagnosed with BPD. At the time, I did intensive research into the diagnosis and became hyper aware that it was a coin flip whether I got diagnosed BPD or NPD, so when I saw people calling those with NPD evil, it just reminded me of a more blatant version of the same stigma I faced from my BPD diagnosis and I was like "how is this fair?"...
Now I'm convinced that BPD and NPD are bullshit crappy attempts to categorise what's simply complex trauma/CPTSD. Often, they're labels given to people with undiagnosed ASD with added gender bullshit on top (ie many with a BPD diagnosis are women with undiagnosed ASD, and many with an NPD diagnosis are men with undiagnosed ASD). You get BPD if you're seen as emotional or manipulative, NPD if you're seen as unempathetic or self absorbed.
I thought my dad was a narcissist but now I know he was undiagnosed ASD and also just a terrible father lol
What about a man who is manipulative, self absorbed, unempathetic and emotional 😂😂. I am diagnosed AuDHD and my ex was diagnosed with adhd. Occasionally I wondered if he had ASD, but he was so manipulative at such a high level that I can’t imagine he would fit as autistic. No one except me and my kids know about his rages and outbursts. No one else. I cannot tell anyone I know about what is happening or I seem crazy. The few times I tried to reach out for help, folks called him to see if he was ok. It’s crazy making. And I’ve learned by now not to even engage because he is so quickly able to confound and confuse me I will fall into meltdown with in moments of his targeted attacks. I definitely have diagnosed ptsd from my decade with him to add to the CPTSD I had before we met 😂. He wouldn’t get any help and thank goodness I finally woke up!!
But for me I am like the most lovable, loving loudmouth person. I can’t imagine hurting someone on purpose. I can’t imagine being able to be a totally different person in public than in private. He acts like I can’t remember by saying one thing one day and another the next and blames me and my memory. It’s gotten so bad I had to reduce all communication to text because he talks in loops I cannot understand them tells at me for asking for clarification. But even that leaves me exposed. I ask a yes or no question and I get a paragraph that is so unclear I have to keep asking for clarification which gives him the chance to be cruel and then he blocks me. So after a decade of giving this man my everything and taking all his trash and raising our kids, he is using everything he knows about me to absolutely disorient and confound me and possibly attempting to take the kids from me. Kids he doesn’t even want to raise. It’s terrifying and I’m just hoping it won’t get as bad as some folks say it will get. I don’t view him as a monster. I know he went through abuse and he is emotionally traumatized, but the way he’s behaves toward me and his kids is downright evil and I am an atheist. Like it was so bad I started to think he was the devil 😂. I had to go get help because i started to think this is the devil here to punish me for my failings. It was insane. I am so glad to be out of it. Oh lord I’m so glad. No joke I go to church now. I’m still mostly an atheist but I realized that the more I go in public around people he doesn’t know, the less he will attack me directly. So now I go to church every week with my kiddos 😂😂
I feel like the overall obsessions with narcissism, psycopathy, and what have you are that there is a comfort in feeling like you can identify an abuser with as little information as possible so that they will never get the chance to hurt you.
Which is ultimately why it seems so unsavory to suggest that we be compassionate to ppl who are narcissists because a lot of the time ppl do this as a trauma response, and without that comfort of feeling like they could now avoid being abused again they may not feel safe interacting with new ppl ever again. They were hurt badly, and to tell them that a narcissist could be helped is basically telling them "well maybe your abusive ex actually could have been fixed. You just failed at it." Which, touches on a what i feel like there is also a huge gendered aspect in this where afab folk are often socialized to anticipate danger will tend to gravitate more to these pop psychology videos on narcissism because to us it's another tool in our arsenal so survive the ol' patriarchal society that we live in.
Like, i've literally seen a tiktok where someone straight up said, "there is no such thing as a recovered narcissist only a narcissist that learns therapy terms to weaponize them" ... like, i'm sorry, doctorate needed to support that shit, and even still, i want to see some reviews from peers on that one.
Which brings me to my last point i'll end this comment on, another thing i feel like this phenomenon has done is sort of, over emphasize the importance of feeling empathy and that feeling empathy is they only way for someone to be a good person. Like sure, someone who feels empathy may hurt you, but when they apologize about it, they are genuine because *they* feel bad about it. Sure, you've made mistakes in your life, but you're still a good person because *you* feel bad you it.
Anyways, good vid. Muy fuego 🔥
Im glad ive been finding more info about NPD and dismantling of the concept of demonizing "narcisists". It doesnt help anything or anyone to reject people wholely or demonize them, especially if they have a disorder. They can be helped with a simple diagnosis.
The essentialism is really something that worries us! Whenever we try to research something to help us deal with our own narcissistic traits, we always come across some of the most vile and hateful shit.
It feels like that belief of narcissists being these inhuman monsters is something that many people share, some of them mental health professionals.
Some of them actively asking for violence against everyone with NPD.
To us, NPD is just one of many adaptations to trauma and when those traits aren't needed anymore to keep us safe, we can start to learn something new.
But the world being so hateful about it is really not super encouraging.
my mom became a narcissists bad content creator when i was a kid & now i have a bpd diagnosis & im doing my phd in the neuroscience of bpd & am so radically against personality disorder stigma its crazy. ty for this video, ive only recently seen this take getting traction
It’s weird to see how common narcissist accusations are, it’s kinda funny though because I was raised (and abused) by my mother which actually does have narcissistic personality disorder. Her therapists have stated she fits a lot of the symptoms and if she doesn’t have npd then I don’t know who does.
It is truly something to encounter a bonafide textbook Narcissist in the wild!
i believe in educated self-diagnosis but i've had to teach myself not to put diagnostic labels on other people, especially when i’m coming at it from a negative pov
I’ve been waiting for this video. I’m with a man who has diagnosed NPD. He is very aware of it and fights to be the best version of himself he can be. I’ve watch him grow as a person to be better than his condition, taking steps to make amends for past actions and rebuild relationships. It’s been a rough journey and whenever it comes up people ask me if I’m safe and ok. I never take offense considering the vast majority of encounters people have with narcissists. It’s a rough thing to have for any party involved.
I'm a trans man, who is just starting to grapple with how men are treated by society as dangerous potential threats. I don't personally have NPD but I feel sympathy for how hard it must be for him to deal with the stigma and bias. He should be proud of the work you have put into himself and you should be proud for seeing beyond the stereotype and understanding the truth about your partner.
@@annajensen7360 Thank you from the both of us. I wish you well on your journey through manhood. While I can’t say I’m trans, there are periods where I am male presenting. I have a medical condition where I can grow a full on beard and will lean into it from time to time. Seeing everything from both worlds it’s down right heart breaking. I believe the vast majority of people deserve to have someone at least try to understand them.
Yes! I had all this suspicions floating around about this new trend of cataloguing a*holes as narcissists. Smelled very essencialist and didn't help with addressing the real issue, which is the abuse.
Multiple therapists over the years have told me that both my mother and my husband show many classic symptoms of NPD. It was therapy that pushed me toward looking into it and I am finally willing to accept that it is likely true. They both happen to be abusive in thier own way and it is soul crushing and spirit killing. Watching videos by a particular man who was diagnosed and is in therapy and makes videos. He really taught me to see the pattern of behavior and stop worry about a certain diagnosis. Focus on the behavior and how it makes me feel and move from thier. I have always told my husband that if he was willing to get help I could stay with him. It’s been 10 years and I can’t do it anymore. He refuses still to seek any treatment and so we had to separate. My therapists have suggested he shows strong symptoms of sociopathic narcissism. And the internet describes covert narcissism and that fits very well with his personality. No one knows what he’s like. He only acts out toward me and the kids. He just treats us like he hates us and says horrible things. There’s just so much. I can totally see why it would be frustrating to have NPD and not be an abuser and get lumped in with those abusers. I think more videos by people with NPD who aren’t abusers would be so very helpful because it would help show that just because you have NPD doesn’t mean you are an abuser. I think for some reason that people need to feel like their abuse must come from somewhere and so it’s easy to blame it on NPD.
Personality disorders like narcissism, sociopaths and psychopaths are so demonized. For one thing those last two aren’t even medically recognized terms but people paint the slightest thing off as one of those 3. And even if the person is diagnosed with that, they’re not evil murderers or on the verge of it either.
Amazing video and what an excellent sentence/sentiment to end on!! Dehumanizing people with (assumed or actual) NPD makes the world less safe for everyone, including people who have been abused by people with (assumed or actual) NPD! Dehumanizing people is truly never the answer. Dehumanizing people is not liberatory praxis; it is a tool of fascism and gen-cide.
Anyone with NPD who is reading this: I will continue to fight against people's anti-PD ableism that makes it so much harder for you to exist and access care, support, community, resources for healing/change, etc. You are not disposable!
Kylee! You did great. Ignore the hate. Keep going. Your courage and accountability is helping people a great deal.
Thank you!!
Everybody’s ex is a narcissist.
As someone with npd, I wish people would stop throwing the word "narcissist" around when referring to someone who is just self-centered, abusive, etc. The system I'm part of has various disorders including npd and usually, when we try to find resources in between our therapy sessions, we just find stuff like "how to deal with the narcissist in your life", and stuff demonizing us. Also, something I wish more people would realize is that npd, unlike narcissism that's similar to how Narcissus had it, npd isn't really loving yourself. It's a lie, a front you feed to everyone including yourself sometimes to avoid harsh realities.
That’s literally how I found this video. I was looking for ways to cope with my symptoms and instead I’m hit with a wave of content about “dealing” with me, like my very existence is some kind of horrific disease.
I really think calling someone who is incredibly afraid and insecure a narcisist is a misinterpretation of their intentions. Im trying to have better tolerance and communication with people who fit some of the stereotypes of narcisism. But as it is, i dont feel emotionally guarded enough to handle the guilt triping and gaslighting. Im very trusting and take things literally, and i have so much empathy. It takes days to process manipulative conversations to understand that it was based in their anxious delusions and that they are afraid of me as much if not more than I am afraid of them.
The title alone gave me chills. i am 20 seconds in and can very much tell this is a very needed video.
excited for this video, especially after watching D'Angelo's video on Caroline Calloway. At all times I was actuely aware that yes she has undesirable personality traits, but so do lots of people. She's still a complex person, though, as are all narcissists, and deserves to be treated with the same respect and nuanced thought as everyone else. (Not excusing her actions nor ignoring the fact that she in particular probably needs several financial literacy classes and mental health support, she's just a relevant example)
i was JUST thinking this!!
I mean yeah everyone has bad personality traits but they're obviously not all equal or as extreme. she is still, in fact, a very uniquely bad person even if she is complex. Most people have good qualities and bad qualities too, yeah, but there is a threshold where if someone crosses it then others will understandably mostly view them on a negative light. When someone is riding that threshold it can be very difficult to figure out how to view that person or whether to give them the benefit of the doubt, but corline does not ride that line. I dont know where the line is exactly, but she certainly surpassed it with all her lies, theft from regular people, scams, harassment of natalie, and her doing lewd cosplays for OF of characters who are underage CSA victims. Oh and her just casually admitting that she follows 15 yos on tiktok that she's attracted to bc she likes watching them dance
Narcissistic personality disorder has been swimming around the surface of my mind since the hbomberguy/james somerton debacle.
The mess of armchair diagnosticians have made themselves really visible (at least in my bubble)
She has legitimately caused harm to other people though and continues to do so. I feel sorry for how she grew up and it definitely contributed to how she acts now. I’m not saying she isn’t deserving of help but, it doesn’t absolve her from not hurting others. I don’t think everything she does is because of her personality. Nor do I think she’s innately a “bad” person. Most rich people don’t really care or have a good understanding of there’s of people less wealthy than them. I feel like a lot of credit goes to growing up in a wealthy environment.
Agreeing with the above, she's definitely choosing to be worse than her circumstances are making her, not denying that. "Undesirable personality traits" undermines the extent of her particular situation and especially the way they play into her actions, so my fault for equating her so simply with the general public.
She's an exceptional person to talk about regarding narcissism given her scams, threatening behavior, and overall questionable actions. Again, not just actions with negative consequences but choices that she chooses to do with full awareness.
Still, from Natalie's very empathetic perspective and from CC's perspective when not talking about how shitty she chose to be, she had a lot going on that had me like "Damn. I've been there. Lots of bad days at once and you cope with what you have and it shapes you." Not anywhere as privileged as she but still carrying my own blessings, I empathized with her turmoils when factoring in upbringing, traits, and what's happened to her (the multiple addictions if you include gambling/spending, loss of an immediate family member, struggling to appear OK when you're not, etc).
Like I said, she's complex like anybody. Discussing just that from a lens like Natalie was very revealing, and the nuanced approach to examining her while still reproaching her bad choices was interesting.
To a less serious extents, D'Angelo and Elliot are star examples of how to talk about people with certain narcissist traits or tendencies or 'bad' traits while not declaring them 'evil' or 'inhuman'. I really do think she and other rich kids like her need financial literacy classes and opportunities to really learn the consequences of money as well as how to live without it. She also needs mental health support to unpack why she makes certain decisions and how she can have healthier emotions.
All of this to say that this style of convo we're having here is progress for sure
I think the narcissism content resonates more with codependents and those with insecure attachment than those who are healthy. If you roll your eyes at all this narcissism content, that may be a sign that you’re psychologically healthy.
Those of us who are codependent/insecurely attached have spent their whole lives “seeing the best in everyone”, putting up with mistreatment and making excuses for it, which makes us natural targets for abusers.
Along comes someone like Dr ramani, telling us that we can’t fix them, that they are who they are, and we need to decide what role they’re going to play in our lives based on their actual behavior and not based on our fantasy of what we think we can change them into, is a revolutionary, life changing perspective.
This is why narcissism content is so popular, it’s empowering to those have been disempowered.
You bring up great points, and her constant shifting between presenting herself as an authority in mental health, and a mere social commentator, is sloppy and it’s a valid criticism.
But you also have to consider what it’s like to be someone whose been thoroughly gaslit into thinking abusive relationship are the norm and we’re just dumb and naive to think loving supportive relationships actually exist, content like this is incredibly validating, and can undo some of that gaslighting. It can provide hope and a sense that maybe we’re not crazy after all.
Firstly, thank you so much for this video. It encapsulates all of my feelings about narcissism related content on the internet. I was raised by a narcissist and developed narcissistic traits because of it. In all honesty, I think the only reason I didn't develop the disorder in its fullest capacity is because I stumbled across the NPD criteria during quarantine, thought "wow that is literally me. I am becoming the people that hurt me" and tried to improve myself out of abject shame. I brought it up to my first therapist, who ended up saying I couldn't have NPD because I was self aware. Same woman tried to evaluate me for ASPD (she called it sociopathy lmao) when I told her my father says he's a sociopath. I quickly realized what she was doing and lied when she asked me questions. I was 16 and didn't want that life altering diagnosis.
Fast forward, I'm an adult now and in a somewhat better spot mentally. Apparently (according to my current therapist), most of my narcissistic traits are actually caused by 1) CPTSD, 2) my neurodivergence (this directly impacts empathy), and 3) bipolar. My mania comes with grandiosity and sometimes grandiose delusions, it basically mimics NPD. When I'm in the worst of my depression, I feel absolutely nothing. I've unpacked my feelings of shame more, and feel less of a need to grandstand and brag. It's... weird. I remember in one therapy session, I realized all of my trauma (sexual, bullying, etc.) all caused me to feel one thing: completely inhuman. Worthless. I hid behind achievement to escape that. It nearly killed me.
My healing journey, on the outside, almost looks like self destruction. My grades are getting worse, and my personality is becoming a bit more abrasive. But it's because I am not doing everything for praise and admiration anymore. It's just... me. My therapist even told me that as I've gotten more mentally healthy, I've become more cocky. But the key difference is, I don't feel the need to put others down. It's almost like that more positive form of narcissism I think. As it's essentially harmless.
All of this rambling about myself to say, healing is a beautiful, messy, and tragic journey. To say someone is incapable of some form of healing because of a disorder is downright sinister. It causes so much pain. And like you said, the best case scenario for the narcissist is to seek help. It helps them and others.
You were right to have red flags about that therapist- idk if it was part of the criteria back when she was diagnosing you, but now you have to be 18+ to be diagnosed with ASPD. Also, good luck on your healing journey! :3
Dang, this was really interesting to read through. I've also noticed a few narcissistic traits within myself, but have been working to get better. I think a lot of the time, people might develop selfishness as a survival mechanism to get their needs met, which is unfortunate. I hope your healing journey continues to go well
Moral of the video:
Don't demonise any person who hasn't done anything wrong based on immutable characteristics.
When you're using these labels, you're basically looking for a way to dehumanise the other party.
Not even moral, but an advice: Don't demonize people because of what you assumes of them.
I appreciate this take so much. I think people who’ve been through trauma (like myself) sometimes find it comforting to dehumanize narcissists as a coping mechanism/potentially to have an easier answer for why bad things happened to them. That’s not actually healthy and it’s good to talk about that.
Thank you for making this video Elliot and illustrating this issue with nuance.
I actually started watching Dr Ramani's videos last year when my best friend of 10+ years and I had a huge falling out. My friend began treating me flippantly and speaking down to me more and more often. I noticed this and tried to talk to her about it but she denied everything and claimed that I was the one who had been treating her badly. Then a few days later, she called me asking me for a HUGE personal favor and after a few minutes, I said yes. Immediately after I acquiesced, she said "never mind, I don't need you anymore." I knew then and there that it had been a test of my "loyalty" as a friend and I blew up, accusing her of this.
She left the moment I showed anger (I'm not someone who yells and gets angry very often) and blocked me on every platform, never speaking to me again. She then began to tell lies about the entire situation to our mutual friends about how much of a bad friend and asshole I was. I initially didn't realize it was happening and was already in a spiral of self blame in my own head. I just didn't understand why this all happened. Weren't we best friends for life? We often talked about being friends forever and going on cruises as old ladies.
So, I ended up googling some of her behavior to help make sense of it and that's how I came across Dr Ramani's content. I was hooked. Everything she described matched my friend's behavior perfectly and she gave names to the things I had experienced; narcissistic abuse, smear campaign, grey rocking, etc. I came to "realization" that my ex-bff was, in fact, a narcissist.
After a few months of watching nearly every video she posted and feeling comfort reading the comments of people with similar experiences below, I began to get a similar feeling to the one Elliot described in the video. Dr Ramani's speech against narcissists began to feel harsh and lacking nuance. It felt wrong to call my ex-friend a narcissist. Was she selfish, mean, and manipulative? Yes, 100%. But there was no need in my mind anymore to use a clinical term. So, I unsubscribed from Dr. Ramani's channel and stopped watching her videos.
The interesting thing is, I would often notice certain traits and behaviors Dr Ramani had described in other friends and family. My brain would immediately think, "omg, if this person a narcissist??" But then, I would look back on their behavior and realize, "no, they are a kind and empathetic person and they are just having a bad day/selfish moment/misunderstanding." It would scare me how quickly my mind wanted to label people as something just from one moment or action. I think human beings are kind of wired this way, to find shortcuts. Sometimes it's good but sometimes, if makes you think something crazy like "wait a minute, is my mom, the woman who sacrificed so much for me all my like, secretly an evil undiagnosed narcissist??"
People are complex beings who are hard to summarize and explain, no matter how many diagnoses they have or don't have. I am equally grateful to and suspicious of Dr Ramani. Her videos helped me make sense of a difficult and hurtful person who had been in my life but I also see how she is conversely exploiting our brains' tendency to make assumptions and categorize people without thinking critically about their character and motivations.
To anyone who actually reads this whole thing, thank you lmao.
This is such a good discussion. Nameless narcissists' point on people using it as something to obsess over and not move on from hit home for me. I was like that for a while but as I opened up to viewing creators who are narcissists and learning from their perspectives, my obsession has turned into an interest in destigmatizing the disorder and gaining more understanding. How can someone begin to want help for something that everyone bastardizes? I hope we can change the narrative so more people with NPD can get help without feeling as many of the horrible things they're already feeling. I'll be sharing this one!
Years ago, I read a detailed article in Oprah magazine on Narcissism and it was reflected my relationship with my Mom. The last line was, “…and God help you if this extreme form of narcissistic behavior is your mother.” Scared the shit out of me. But also gave me clarity.
also dads (men) are more likely to be narcissists statistically, but EVERYONE is always talking abt their mothers!!!!!!
Fuck yeah I am. The best one too
And the funniest. You’re out of control and I’m here for it!
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I would like to remind everyone at all times that a person is a human being no matter their actions nor batshit behavior. They still experience and have their motives in life just as you do.
I've been thinking this for awhile, but it feels like therapist just teach people how to cope with the current world we are living in.
The way she talks about people, presumably with NPD, as if they *are* a disease is very troubling. She conflates narcissism as a trait with the disorder, and makes the former out to be almost worse- they behave this way sometimes because they *are* a (insert variety) narcissist.
And this villainizing of so-called narcissists paves way for the hero, the perpetual prey of the narc: the empath. Which isn’t a thing. But you can see why the whole mythology is so seductive. The idea that everyone who’s ever hurt you is inherently evil, and they chose you because you are an inherently pure being of goodness.
when i first left my abusive house i watched Dr. Ramanis videos to kinda figure out why those things happened to me, but after starting therapy it dawned on me that they were still people but just incapable of change, and at times because of their past experiences
YOU REMINDED ME OF A PSYCHEDELIC TRIP I HAD IN WHICH I STARTED TO EXPERIENCE MYSELF FEELING THE CONSTANT NEGATIVITY THAT MY OWN TORMENTORS LIVE WITH EVERYDAY. I remember feeling lots of empathy for them because I thought to myself "if I felt so horrible about myself all the time, I'd just end things". It was a terrifying experience but it reminded me that we're all HUMANS here. Sure, it doesn't mean you have to become a co-dependent or that you have to ruin your own life to help abusive people, but it's just unfair to hate and demonize them. They're not that way because they want to.
I've employed the use of the term "the bleeding ego". I haven't mastered confidence. But people often comfuse true confidence with, what I feel to be, some form of narcissism. They need constant validation and appreciation so they project this image of an overly confident individual. But, of you know a person like this, you only have to scratch a bit past the surface to discover they are wounded, scared individuals with very low self esteem. Thus, the bleeding ego. They make their ego and sense of self the problem of those around them. They need others to hold the bandage to their wounded ego. This has been my experience with such individuals.
There have been several times where I have tried to research narcissism, sociopathy, and psychopathy, and where I have given up because the results were very scattered, unspecific, inconsistent, petty, demonizing, and just generally part of the pop therapy trends. And there was this one time where, in the midst of this generally unhelpful research, I had come to the conclusion that a fictional autistic character I personally strongly identified with had narcissism in the 'self-serving asshole disorder' way, and it devastated me. So I'm incredibly thankful that a video like this exists, and that there *are* people with the *actual* disorder who are able to get their voices out there, even though it's not going super well for them so far :c/
0:00 so excited for this cuz there’s a difference between NPD and how people use the word narcissism
I feel alot of debates like this one boil down to our black and white perception of the world and belief there is inherently good and evil in things that can't be truly discussed without nuance - like people or bigger concepts. Villifying any single person without concidering their circumstance is just putting your need of simplicity (and with that - safety) and bias over trying to understand and acting from a place of empathy. Which is imho quite ironic when the accusation is narcissism and thought process narcissism = evil.
I have been thinking about this for a while, how do we expect to make progress if we constantly vilify these people while also holding them accountable?
People have created this almost cartoon like evil villain in their minds of what a "narcissist" is yet many of them have not actually read a textbook and lack nuance to actually understand the narcissist. We shouldn't try to justify a narcissists shitty behavior and actions, we should hold them accountable but shunning them away and just telling them they are "bad" without explaining to them what they did was wrong will make them never understand. All this does is make narcissist in denial of their behavior and makes them hide it more convincingly than actually confronting their behaviors and actions and learning how to grow and change.
I like you, wondered if my mom is a narcissist. Truth is people aren’t generally “born” that way or something. I feel like people treat these diagnoses as identities and not even like identities that we can occupy at differing times, but as something pre determined…dare i say bioessentialist. Turns out my mom has just been victimised by patriarchy her whole life and that makes her defensive. 🤷🏽♂️ultimately I think we should get to decide how much or how little our diagnoses matter. And we should be able to access help no matter what the world perceives of who we are
I could be wrong, but I feel like it’s well understood that narcissism is a pattern of behavior not just a person having a bad day. It’s also well understood that they have positive traits as well. If anything I think people seeking out this content is an indicator of them trying to understand someone that they are close to. It’s not like realizing the narcissistic qualities of someone you love is an easy thing to come to terms with. If you’re close enough with them to care enough to look this up, then you more than likely know their background and can have the context to understand how they got like this. How people respond to narcissism speaks to a larger problem in our society of how we treat “evil” and “bad” people and I agree that we could all be less judgmental.
Some international psychology groups are trying to get rid of NPD and BPD as terms and just using the umbrella term of personality disorder. These other terms cause a lot of stigma and does not help these individuals get help.
Hmm...
I find it really interesting that the different "types" of narcissists just sound like the most unhealthy emotional levels of certain Enneagram personality models.
Which only further reinforces the humanity in a 'narcissist,' because ultimately that person's heart isn't doing well.
Are they not just trying to feel loved and appreciated and real like the rest of us? That doesn't justify or explain anything, like you said it's still a choice someone 'bad' makes.
But it does appeal to humanity. Clearly this person isn't doing great, or in dire need. Not of critique, but compassion.
I went on an inquisition trying to understand why my mother is the way she is, and I thought narcissism was my ultimate answer. But I had to move away from that and recognize how her history impacted her. With that revelation, the rest just kind of fades away, and all you see before you is someone just like you, struggling to recover from a staggering blow.
Thank you so much Elliot for making this video. I wish I saw this in 2018, when I discovered my narcissistic tendencies. (I'm not officially diagnosed, and I don't know if I have NPD or not. My narcissistic traits are many, though.) When I tried to educate myself about it, most of what I found told me that I wasn't even human, and that I was doomed to hurt everyone around me. I went into a spiral, always drinking, distancing myself from people as not to hurt them. It was bad.
Fortunely, I snapped out of it. I thought, fine, if I couldn't be human I'd be a god. A benevolent god. I decided to use my narcissistic traits for good. I worked on myself and tried to become better. (I also binge watched The Good Place an embarrassing amount of times. lol Seeing narcissistic, antisocial characters learn to be better and forming bonds with others gave me hope.) I can proudly say I've become a better person. I know this because more than one person have told me so. I'm still not a saint. I still struggle with vulnerability. But I can continue to try, can't I?
As for the myth of Narcissus, what I take away from it is that Narcissus doesn't love himself, only his reflection. In some versions of the tale, he doesn't even know that it is him in the pond. If he loved himself, like truly loved himself, he'd remove himself from the cold, lifeless water. He'd instead direct his attention to his real self. The self that feels pain. The self that rages and fears. The self that experiences all these complicated emotions and sensations. His tragedy is that he can only love the perfection he sees in the pond, not his real, messy self. That's the tragedy of real-life narcissists as well. So, as a part of my healing, I learned to cultivate authentic self love and self acceptance. It helped, so much.
There are a couple of books I found useful. One is "Against Empathy: The Case for Rational Compassion" by Paul Bloom, which offers a way to be good without empathy. Another is "The Selfishness of Others: An Essay on the Fear of Narcissism" by Kristin Dombek, which debunks the fear and hate people have towards narcissists.
To all narcissists reading this who are trying to be better, I see you, and I love you. I know it's not easy, but please keep going because it's so worth it. I hope you have a lovely day today.
Dr. Fatima reading the Echo and Narcissus story was a treat
Siggh, it's really nice to see a conversation arise from the stigmatization and industrialization of personality disorders :,,)... I've also noticed to how many complex conflicts, specially online, devolve in turning people into caricatures of themselves based on their actions and assigning medical labels as a way to say "[negative adjetive or trait] with extra steps" ... Emotional abuse and toxic dynamics have different shapes and forms and are usually more complex than just assigning checklists to the people around you... and it can help people feel more in control of their own situations but it also can create misunderstandings. Again, it's a really complicated topic to explore, especially given how diverse human experience is, but again, it's always good to have a conversation about it.
Have been waiting for this discourse for years. Thank you so much for talking about this and actually doing thorough research!
Elliot as a first bash at this topic I think you hit all the right notes. Dr Ramani's work is not helpful. I noted that when I first start to correlate the abuse I was subject to with media around the topic of narcissism. There were Facebook groups where I thought I could get some support with what had happened to me. It was predominantly people saying how horrible narcissists were. I wasn't there for that an left those groups. I've found the work on Sam Vaknin and Lee Hammock very helpful (or perhaps the word revealing is more appropriate) both of whom have an NPD diagnosis. I look forward to seeing what Kylee Rackam and Jake Skidmore have for me. In the UK here ICD-11 land, we don't have NPD as a diagnosis. We have 'personality disorder' (which can be mild, moderate or severe) and within that borderline can be given as a type (as there are particular therapies that can help that type of condition reliably). So in the UK people would be treated for a personality disorder if they presented with NPD traits. Sadly 'personality disorder' is the one of the most stigmatised diagnoses here.
Lee Hammock is the BEST! Dude saved my life. It’s not about the label. It’s about the pattern of behavior and is this toxic. Stop worry about a diagnosis is this toxic. And if the answer is yes then get away. He was the first one to not spend every video just calling narcs monsters but really went though what patterns of behavior look like and how to genuinely navigate the day to day while I slowly withdrew from the relationship in a safe way.
As a clinical psychologist I was pleasantly surprised, impressed and utterly entertained by this video. It was unexpectedly deep, broad and interesting to me. Thank you for making it. I'll look around the channel and see what else you have going on there.
Thank you. This is a confusing subject I've been trying to wrap my head around for a while now, because I've had people in my life who I've suspected might have narcissistic traits or even the full personality disorder, and the online discussion is so muddled. I don't want to hand-wave these individuals off as "evil", because that's over-simplifying and dehumanizing. They likely wound up with these patterns due to trauma, which isn't their fault. Yet it's also functionally useful to identify these troubling behaviors because people who get unwittingly close can get seriously hurt.
i’m really glad you’re talking about this. as someone who has many a time complained to google about my mom, i have definitely come upon those internet communities about narcissistic parents. but, i think in my case and a lot of other people’s it’s more a case of selfishness, entitlement, egotism, or even culture (if anyone’s sees the asian parents subreddit, i can relate so much) rather than NPD.
i think we all just use the term narcissism because it’s kind of an easy way to categorize all those parents that hurt us? like i think it just feels easier to categorize all those ways in which parents are controlling, or disregard our feelings, or have unrealistic expectations, or are just plain mean as narcissism just because there’s not really a specific word for it.
i was apprehensive about watching this. the first section or so of the video made me nervous, i wasn’t sure how educated u actually were on narcissism, but thank u for the clarification on abuse & abuse victims. it kept me around.
also if not for narcissistic content online, i’d probably still be in some toxic situations in my life. i’m def someone who feels that dr. ramani saved me. her content was a daily part of my life the year after escaping a narcissist.
however i have my own critiques of pop psychology too & i have watched many-self-aware narcissist creators, so i appreciate some nuance & critique. especially at this point in my healing, years after 1st learning about npd.
i clicked ur video in the first place because i think humanizing eachother is always a good idea. & one of the most painful things about going no contact with a narcissist who refuses to heal is having them think ur demonizing them, even when u have been nothing but patient & understanding till u couldn’t do it anymore.
it’s very kind of u to make a video like this for any self-aware narcs out there.
i would be interested in more content from u on this subject if u feel like it, it’s a topic i will probably keep up with for the rest of my life.
i definitely don’t think any mental disorders should be casually educated, & i was unaware ppl were condensing some of this information on tiktok. especially people who don’t have experience with it first hand. that def makes me very nervous. even in my own life i get uncomfortable with some friends who just ran with a few things i told them when i was first working thru this stuff & never did their own research. it took me many many months if not years to feel like i had a grasp on what narcissism rly is (not that i consider myself an expert) & i still try to educate myself because it’s a really tricky thing. but it helps me navigate abusive/toxic patterns in all sorts of ppl & situations.
i do genuinely think all westerners should take time to learn about it tho, i do think we live in a narcissistic society lol
When I was a kid the "narcissistic abuse" community happened to be one of the only resources online that made me realize I was being abused by my mother and so naturally I just clung to it and adopted it like some kind of doctrine or dogma. I think this is really bad because it leads to a very cultish and binary attitude around the actual issue and it keeps actual victims away from genuinely helpful psych advice
As "high functioning autistic"( I don't like that label so much!), I started to be sceptical about types of narcissistic personality, when word "high- functionig" appeared. Also, the DSM's definition sounds a awful lot like definition of autism by neurotypical people- like, it's true to some degree, but... but the symptoms are described by other people, not by "sick" human himself. I often feel angry, because strangers describe autism spectrum as something alien and strange when I'm living with it and it's just... life. I'm kinda interested how "narcissist" would describe himself in context of this medical definition.
Exactly! As another autistic person, I immediately empathized with people who have personality disorders because neurotypicals (and sometimes even neurodivergents!) constantly treat us like burdens. It reminds me of the "autistic parents" stereotype. They barely even ask how *we* feel. It's always about how we affect others and never about how we affect ourselves.
I'm yet to get my diagnosis (suspect BPD, recognize some narcissistic traits too), but opening up to my best friend, the closest I've ever had, about the symptoms I experience and the feelings that poison my heart was one of the best moments of my life. Because I could feel she's accepted me, because nothing has changed between us and I was still her best friend, not disgusting, not inadequate, not a lost cause, none of the things I usually think I am. And now I can live more at peace with whatever's going on inside my head.
Genuinely thank you. I've seen so many neurodivergent people think that narcissists (and other cluster B's) are demons. It's great to see you make this video as i have some narc traits (like near entire cognitive empathy and some manipulitive tendencies) so thank you