We saw what appeared to be Scorn Chieftains taking worms through the environmental storytelling in Vow of the Disciple. That’s certainly a good enough explanation for what the Husks are for me. It doesn’t help that they are just reskinned Captains, but it’s better than nothing at this point.
Byf sent me to your video "Ending Destiny's Greatest Lore Debate" and I listened to that whole thing at work. Love your stuff and I can't believe I've never seen your content before. Keep up the good work, Guardian. It's guys like you that talked me into getting Final Shape, so I'm excited to see what comes next.
I actually think its better the way it is. We have always fought villains who belonged to a race, so the witness, being a merge of a race, now most likely one of a kind (but maybe these precursor guys who left the system are still out there) and having different races, we haven’t even encountered before serve it, ascends it above other villains and makes it more imposing. Also the theory about the purpose of taken is pretty interesting
I’d argue that the Taken are the perfect things for the Hive’s Final Shape based on Sword Logic and the Dread are for the Witness’ Final Shape of inert life but I feel like I might eat my words soon. Anyways, just today the last radio message from Osiris confirms your observation that things on the Pyramid ships are “alive but not living” in Osiris’ words. Make sure to clip that.
That last point that the Witness makes only flawed attempts at a whole, and with light and dark being in relevance, it makes us having Prismatic in FS so much more compelling now. Nice video, I don't see much like this anymore with this sort of editing. I really enjoy it.
Dude I had the same exact thought. I said this almost verbatim under Evaze's video. Neither the dread nor disciples make sense if the Witness could take. It makes me wonder if Oryx surpassed the Witness within the darkness and the Witness might not have clean hands when it comes to Oryx's death.
On the point of evidence linking the two Subjugator enemies to Rhulk/Lubrae beyond their visuals, the recent bungie posts we've been getting every week giving us lore summaries and details on the bosses added to pantheon, Rhulk is actually called a member of the "Dread" directly. While it isn't conclusive still this little detail, combined with the visual similarities, and the connection to darkness powers all points to them all being Lubraeans remade by the Witness in my opinion.
Rhulk slew every last Lubraean, he became the last of his kind and the first of the Disciples that way. These seem to be more like some kind of fleshcraft/Darkness automata made in his image due to his effectiveness as a servant to the Witness. Or maybe they are made from the corpses of his people, reanimated with Pyramid tech and repurposed as an army for the Witness. Who knows? The curious part of my brain hopes we get lore in Final Shape about what the Dread originally were and how they came to become what they are, but another part of my brain says it's good for some mysteries to remain unsolved.
Your’s and Byf’s explanations of the Dread just makes me creeped out about the faction as a whole. The Witness wants full control over everyone, body, mind, and soul, and everything. They want to be a God, a creator, and reshape reality according to its very own design, and everyone must follow it or die. In fact, The Witness reminds me of Morgoth, Sauron’s master, the first Dark Lord from LOTR when he created the Orcs. They were Elves once, taken by the dark powers, TORTURED and MUTILATED into a ruined, and terrible form of life. That’s the same logic behind the origin of The Dread, The Witness’s pet project. They may seem perfect in its eyes, but they’re in a ruined and twisted form originating from various species, other creatures. Makes me wonder what other horrors that monster created besides what we’re gonna see in The Final Shape.
It would be amazing if we had a cutscene like the one from Witch Queen that revealed the Witness tricking the Hive. This time, revealing the Winnower as the creator of the Taken and all that, maybe revealed to us by the Gardener, inside the Traveler, or something like that.
Seems kinda like Fallout one and the Master. These beings, so far, go left to their own devices, are trying to make their worlds in their own image. But it's flawed. The witness will probably have a realization like the Master, that all of their work is wrong and isn't the best outcome they thought they would have.
Part of me can’t help but feel that Golgoroth was created by the Worms under orders by the Witness to assassinate Oryx, who champions the Winnower’s original Final Shape.
I think the husk are more akin to acolyte Hive. Specifically the 3 stack eyes but also, the hooded bit on their head kinda resembles that of Savathun’s Light Brood acolytes (specifically the ones able to wield light)
The real cynical take I have is that it is the finalising of the scorn and hive together. Merged into the new "perfect" vessel to be piloted by a more perfect version of a worm. Not even seeing Elikshni and Hive as living thinking beings but more like vehicles that the worms drive around. Suitably dreadfull for a mad gods dystopian ideas.
@@gaiofattos2 wdym the witness is so advanced why would he ever *need* anything from Calus. Call it what it is. Lightfall writing one off statements being trash with no explanation like the vidoc statement on the witness not having strand. (They clearly do lol)
As excited as I am for all the new enemies, I am slightly embarrassed to admit that I find the Psions to be the coolest part of the faction lol. I’ve historically dropped off in playtime when the Cabal were made the focus of the story, but the existence of the Psions in the story, especially in regards to Nezarec, is something under-appreciated ever since Destiny released. Psions are literally a different race of enemies from the Cabal proper, and seeing them split entirely from the Cabal, even from the Shadow Legion, is something long coming (I didn’t follow the lore around Vox Obscura much because it was Cabal lol but I at least know the premise) and such a natural progression from the beginning of Nezarec’s lore-Nezarec’s Sin. And so we see new Psions, once connected through the Void and their helmets’ symbology to Nezarec, taking after these Subjugators, fashioned after Rhulk, the “Dread” (as mentioned in the recent TWID) that had “provided the blueprint” for the Witness to empower Nezarec. Psions who, seemingly of their own volition, have been elevated and attuned with true elements of Darkness in Stasis and Strand, to serve as one is literally named “Attendants” to these new Dread the Witness has fashioned to resemble Rhulk even more so than Nezarec had. TL;DR: Psions followed the Disciple Nezarec before Cabal. Now Psions leave Cabal and follow the First Disciple Rhulk’s “children.” That’s good writing that sticks to the most barebones storytelling of D2’s history when Nezarec’s Sin was all that we knew of any of this.
The reason what we didn’t get the Witness’s race is because the Witness IS his race, everyone in his race joined together to create the Witness, and those who didn’t were killed
We are aware of this. What he means is that he wishes that the dread were the actual beings that made the pyramids(The Witnesses people) instead of what we are getting. That’s what I was hoping for as well. Bungie can still have The Witness be a collection of its own race, but not all of them.
The idea that evil cannot create, only corrupt sounds incredibly Tolkienian to me. It works really well with the ideas here, but I am curious: is there any source in Destiny for this actually being a theme, or is this an interpretation you have applied because it seems to fit with what's there?
Yeah, the witness is pretending to be God. The traveler isn’t god either but both hold the powers, one takes, the other gives, god shares so it is all and nothing. That’s why sacrifice is important, we share our life and our deaths with the universe so what looks like sacrifice is freedom, sharing you which isn’t even you, with everything. That’s why life is a gift to humans and death is a gift to the hive, it’s an opportunity to share and reveal differences and not for the self, the self is a construct of the universe and the universe shared me with me, that’s the only reason i am and to recognize and listen is to be a conduit, a vessel of the differences, embodiment of myself and to recognize and reflect is to be aware and the sharing reveals consciousness and consciousness can reveal everything when shared. Expansion into different dimensions and the witness is one being born of many dimensions and able to see more but not god, just another being with too much power and no clarity, the witness has seen too much and desires, falling victim just like the blind or drug addicts who chase something within something that doesn’t share and takes.
I feel like your bitterness and apathy the direction of the darkness has tainted your speculations of them. The dread are not lazy reskins of a race. They are chimeras with chopped together attributes of a collection of creatures. It is the witness attempting to make something new while only having the knife as a tool for “creation”. A husk having the skeleton of a captain does not mean it has the enemy behavior of a captain. Aesthetically and functionally it is a combination of rhulk, the caretaker, fallen, calus (gold divisions) and hive. Nezarec having a humanoid form does not mean that’s his original form (nor that it’s different at all! He’s wearing a massive cloak!). His recovered upper torso from the raid is what he looked like before. The psions are not just a new coat of paint. It’s crucial to question why other races were mixed in a blender but they were left intact. They are already incredibly closely linked to the psychic aspect of the darkness, and by a mind as powerful and the witness, they are easy to manipulate. They needed only tuning. These were the psions of the conclave btw. By saying they’re just reskins locks out every bit of speculation and lore you could pull from them. The dread are the most lore dense designs we’ve ever gotten. To pretend there’s nothing there just because you’re bitter is ignorant of what they represent. The grim might be where the red-white colorshift of elite taken come from, not to mention the dragon wing motif on the back of rhulk and the subjugators. They seem older than the rest of the dread, because they share the least amount of common attributes with the others. The more modern a dread design is, the more it takes from previous dread/disciple motifs, as seen in the gold divisions in the subjugators and husks, which only appeared as a disciple motif after the inauguration of Calus. (Good way to date them in a timeline between their creation.) P.s. I don’t mean to harp on you or call you idiotic or something. I’ve always loved watching your videos. But all the speculation around the dread and the witness has been bitter and unconstructive. I hope the passion that brought you into this universe can still be ignited again from the darkness we know now, not just from what it could’ve been.
In Destiny 1 we had Splicer Captains that erupted with a little flare that chased you and exploded after you killed them. If only Bungie put as much thought into crafting new enemies as you did into writing this post.
@@nickkoch6740 I played rise of iron. Having to finish off husks with a non crit to not release the homing worm, not to mention they’re smaller, faster, and just as deadly, makes them a pretty damn tense enemy to fight in a group. The super, slow straight pathed siva ball coming at you was not this. If we wanna be even more anal about it though, taken centurions did this mechanic EVEN earlier, albeit again in a different way.
@@equinoxruinouseffigy7856 Well then it seems you’ve missed the point entirely, which is that Husks absolutely are reskins. You can try to cope as hard as you want about it, but it is what it is. Bungie has had 6 years to deliver on a new faction that aren’t reskins of existing enemies or bosses. Even when they reuse the newest raid boss model it comes off as incredibly lazy. Have you ever played a From Software game? It actually is possible to have enemy variety in a game.
@@nickkoch6740 I have played dark souls, Elden ring, and bloodborne, I’d like to think I know what enemy variety is. Dread designs have history and strong meaning within the universe. Anything that called on a past enemy or experience you would probably hate without question. I’m just gonna agree to disagree here, since a conversation clearly isn’t what you’re looking for.
We saw what appeared to be Scorn Chieftains taking worms through the environmental storytelling in Vow of the Disciple. That’s certainly a good enough explanation for what the Husks are for me. It doesn’t help that they are just reskinned Captains, but it’s better than nothing at this point.
They seem way diff
They aren't reskinned
Byf sent me to your video "Ending Destiny's Greatest Lore Debate" and I listened to that whole thing at work. Love your stuff and I can't believe I've never seen your content before. Keep up the good work, Guardian. It's guys like you that talked me into getting Final Shape, so I'm excited to see what comes next.
I actually think its better the way it is. We have always fought villains who belonged to a race, so the witness, being a merge of a race, now most likely one of a kind (but maybe these precursor guys who left the system are still out there) and having different races, we haven’t even encountered before serve it, ascends it above other villains and makes it more imposing. Also the theory about the purpose of taken is pretty interesting
It’s really nice to see Byf interacting with d2 lore’s wider youtube space. He was commenting on one of eforme’s videos recently too.
Really? That's so awesome man, I absolutely love eforme and I hope more people will start to appreciate her more
I’d argue that the Taken are the perfect things for the Hive’s Final Shape based on Sword Logic and the Dread are for the Witness’ Final Shape of inert life but I feel like I might eat my words soon.
Anyways, just today the last radio message from Osiris confirms your observation that things on the Pyramid ships are “alive but not living” in Osiris’ words. Make sure to clip that.
That last point that the Witness makes only flawed attempts at a whole, and with light and dark being in relevance, it makes us having Prismatic in FS so much more compelling now. Nice video, I don't see much like this anymore with this sort of editing. I really enjoy it.
Dude I had the same exact thought. I said this almost verbatim under Evaze's video. Neither the dread nor disciples make sense if the Witness could take. It makes me wonder if Oryx surpassed the Witness within the darkness and the Witness might not have clean hands when it comes to Oryx's death.
This just hit me. Keep in mind that the witness didn't "introduce" itself to us until after we killed Oryx's lineage in Shadow keep. Just sayin...
On the point of evidence linking the two Subjugator enemies to Rhulk/Lubrae beyond their visuals, the recent bungie posts we've been getting every week giving us lore summaries and details on the bosses added to pantheon, Rhulk is actually called a member of the "Dread" directly.
While it isn't conclusive still this little detail, combined with the visual similarities, and the connection to darkness powers all points to them all being Lubraeans remade by the Witness in my opinion.
Rhulk slew every last Lubraean, he became the last of his kind and the first of the Disciples that way. These seem to be more like some kind of fleshcraft/Darkness automata made in his image due to his effectiveness as a servant to the Witness. Or maybe they are made from the corpses of his people, reanimated with Pyramid tech and repurposed as an army for the Witness. Who knows? The curious part of my brain hopes we get lore in Final Shape about what the Dread originally were and how they came to become what they are, but another part of my brain says it's good for some mysteries to remain unsolved.
Your’s and Byf’s explanations of the Dread just makes me creeped out about the faction as a whole. The Witness wants full control over everyone, body, mind, and soul, and everything. They want to be a God, a creator, and reshape reality according to its very own design, and everyone must follow it or die. In fact, The Witness reminds me of Morgoth, Sauron’s master, the first Dark Lord from LOTR when he created the Orcs. They were Elves once, taken by the dark powers, TORTURED and MUTILATED into a ruined, and terrible form of life. That’s the same logic behind the origin of The Dread, The Witness’s pet project. They may seem perfect in its eyes, but they’re in a ruined and twisted form originating from various species, other creatures. Makes me wonder what other horrors that monster created besides what we’re gonna see in The Final Shape.
It was great to hear Byf give you multiple shout outs. I'm really glad he watched your Unveiling video
It would be amazing if we had a cutscene like the one from Witch Queen that revealed the Witness tricking the Hive. This time, revealing the Winnower as the creator of the Taken and all that, maybe revealed to us by the Gardener, inside the Traveler, or something like that.
Seems kinda like Fallout one and the Master. These beings, so far, go left to their own devices, are trying to make their worlds in their own image. But it's flawed. The witness will probably have a realization like the Master, that all of their work is wrong and isn't the best outcome they thought they would have.
Part of me can’t help but feel that Golgoroth was created by the Worms under orders by the Witness to assassinate Oryx, who champions the Winnower’s original Final Shape.
I think the husk are more akin to acolyte Hive. Specifically the 3 stack eyes but also, the hooded bit on their head kinda resembles that of Savathun’s Light Brood acolytes (specifically the ones able to wield light)
The real cynical take I have is that it is the finalising of the scorn and hive together. Merged into the new "perfect" vessel to be piloted by a more perfect version of a worm. Not even seeing Elikshni and Hive as living thinking beings but more like vehicles that the worms drive around. Suitably dreadfull for a mad gods dystopian ideas.
Getting more altered Hive vibes from the Husk than an altered Fallen. Yeah, they operate like Fallen Marauders, but that might be a coincidence.
don't know bout ya'll but I'd love to replace all champions with the Dread if each Dread type is similar to a Tormentor in their attacks.
Replace champions with anything and i will be happy.
I thought they said in the lightfall campaign that the tormentors came from Calus's alliance with the witness making them part cabal.
I thought that was more about them making use of Calus’ cloning technology.
Cabal has cloning technology, thats what Calus offered to the witness to become an honorary disciple
@@minimhlk7254 and how tf did the witness not already have that tech
@@wilburforce8046 He didn't need it until meet Calus.
@@gaiofattos2 wdym the witness is so advanced why would he ever *need* anything from Calus. Call it what it is. Lightfall writing one off statements being trash with no explanation like the vidoc statement on the witness not having strand. (They clearly do lol)
As excited as I am for all the new enemies, I am slightly embarrassed to admit that I find the Psions to be the coolest part of the faction lol.
I’ve historically dropped off in playtime when the Cabal were made the focus of the story, but the existence of the Psions in the story, especially in regards to Nezarec, is something under-appreciated ever since Destiny released. Psions are literally a different race of enemies from the Cabal proper, and seeing them split entirely from the Cabal, even from the Shadow Legion, is something long coming (I didn’t follow the lore around Vox Obscura much because it was Cabal lol but I at least know the premise) and such a natural progression from the beginning of Nezarec’s lore-Nezarec’s Sin.
And so we see new Psions, once connected through the Void and their helmets’ symbology to Nezarec, taking after these Subjugators, fashioned after Rhulk, the “Dread” (as mentioned in the recent TWID) that had “provided the blueprint” for the Witness to empower Nezarec. Psions who, seemingly of their own volition, have been elevated and attuned with true elements of Darkness in Stasis and Strand, to serve as one is literally named “Attendants” to these new Dread the Witness has fashioned to resemble Rhulk even more so than Nezarec had.
TL;DR: Psions followed the Disciple Nezarec before Cabal. Now Psions leave Cabal and follow the First Disciple Rhulk’s “children.” That’s good writing that sticks to the most barebones storytelling of D2’s history when Nezarec’s Sin was all that we knew of any of this.
The reason what we didn’t get the Witness’s race is because the Witness IS his race, everyone in his race joined together to create the Witness, and those who didn’t were killed
We are aware of this. What he means is that he wishes that the dread were the actual beings that made the pyramids(The Witnesses people) instead of what we are getting. That’s what I was hoping for as well. Bungie can still have The Witness be a collection of its own race, but not all of them.
You excited for the pulse rifle buff to Bad Juju?
Also which vids did Byf shout you out in?
I am! He mentioned me in the video about when the Traveler has spoken, and why the Witness hates us.
Keep dropping bro I play your videos and let them mfs ride I like hearing your spin on this shit dawg
2:40 wouldn’t it make more sense for it to be a scorn not a fallen since the witness has a lot of scorn forces on its side already
Yeah what I was referring to was mainly the unit's animations. This is just what I have been told as well.
YOU COOKED 🔥🔥🔥
Love ur vids and take on the lore
The Light is given, The Darkness is taken?
The idea that evil cannot create, only corrupt sounds incredibly Tolkienian to me. It works really well with the ideas here, but I am curious: is there any source in Destiny for this actually being a theme, or is this an interpretation you have applied because it seems to fit with what's there?
Good video !
I just want to say byf sent me and im subscribed now.
The dread are reskins lore wise. Which kinda bums me out but gameplay wise im glad to fight new enemies. We desperatly need a new race like the main 4
It is a bit lame but the last thing we needed was a new faction taking up all the story at the last hurdle, we don’t want a repeat of lightfall lmao
@@tromar5758 for sure but like cmon man lol its the end of a saga uve built up and yet we still cant get an entire new race
what is the witness's race?
The Witness's race hasn't been given an official name. The community has just taken to calling them the "Precursors".
@@impartialthrone2097 I've only heard of the precursors in Jak and Dexter 1, curious
New video? we ball
Artificial race*
Rhulk is a Subjigator
Subjigators and Tormentors are imprinted copies of Nezarec and Rhulk dna
NO FUCKING SHIT THERE MINIONS OF THE DARKNESS WHAT THE HELL WERE YOU EXPECTING
Yeah, the witness is pretending to be God. The traveler isn’t god either but both hold the powers, one takes, the other gives, god shares so it is all and nothing. That’s why sacrifice is important, we share our life and our deaths with the universe so what looks like sacrifice is freedom, sharing you which isn’t even you, with everything. That’s why life is a gift to humans and death is a gift to the hive, it’s an opportunity to share and reveal differences and not for the self, the self is a construct of the universe and the universe shared me with me, that’s the only reason i am and to recognize and listen is to be a conduit, a vessel of the differences, embodiment of myself and to recognize and reflect is to be aware and the sharing reveals consciousness and consciousness can reveal everything when shared. Expansion into different dimensions and the witness is one being born of many dimensions and able to see more but not god, just another being with too much power and no clarity, the witness has seen too much and desires, falling victim just like the blind or drug addicts who chase something within something that doesn’t share and takes.
I feel like your bitterness and apathy the direction of the darkness has tainted your speculations of them.
The dread are not lazy reskins of a race. They are chimeras with chopped together attributes of a collection of creatures. It is the witness attempting to make something new while only having the knife as a tool for “creation”.
A husk having the skeleton of a captain does not mean it has the enemy behavior of a captain. Aesthetically and functionally it is a combination of rhulk, the caretaker, fallen, calus (gold divisions) and hive.
Nezarec having a humanoid form does not mean that’s his original form (nor that it’s different at all! He’s wearing a massive cloak!). His recovered upper torso from the raid is what he looked like before.
The psions are not just a new coat of paint. It’s crucial to question why other races were mixed in a blender but they were left intact. They are already incredibly closely linked to the psychic aspect of the darkness, and by a mind as powerful and the witness, they are easy to manipulate. They needed only tuning. These were the psions of the conclave btw. By saying they’re just reskins locks out every bit of speculation and lore you could pull from them. The dread are the most lore dense designs we’ve ever gotten. To pretend there’s nothing there just because you’re bitter is ignorant of what they represent.
The grim might be where the red-white colorshift of elite taken come from, not to mention the dragon wing motif on the back of rhulk and the subjugators. They seem older than the rest of the dread, because they share the least amount of common attributes with the others. The more modern a dread design is, the more it takes from previous dread/disciple motifs, as seen in the gold divisions in the subjugators and husks, which only appeared as a disciple motif after the inauguration of Calus. (Good way to date them in a timeline between their creation.)
P.s. I don’t mean to harp on you or call you idiotic or something. I’ve always loved watching your videos. But all the speculation around the dread and the witness has been bitter and unconstructive. I hope the passion that brought you into this universe can still be ignited again from the darkness we know now, not just from what it could’ve been.
In Destiny 1 we had Splicer Captains that erupted with a little flare that chased you and exploded after you killed them. If only Bungie put as much thought into crafting new enemies as you did into writing this post.
@@nickkoch6740 I played rise of iron. Having to finish off husks with a non crit to not release the homing worm, not to mention they’re smaller, faster, and just as deadly, makes them a pretty damn tense enemy to fight in a group. The super, slow straight pathed siva ball coming at you was not this. If we wanna be even more anal about it though, taken centurions did this mechanic EVEN earlier, albeit again in a different way.
@@equinoxruinouseffigy7856 Well then it seems you’ve missed the point entirely, which is that Husks absolutely are reskins. You can try to cope as hard as you want about it, but it is what it is. Bungie has had 6 years to deliver on a new faction that aren’t reskins of existing enemies or bosses. Even when they reuse the newest raid boss model it comes off as incredibly lazy. Have you ever played a From Software game? It actually is possible to have enemy variety in a game.
@@nickkoch6740 I have played dark souls, Elden ring, and bloodborne, I’d like to think I know what enemy variety is. Dread designs have history and strong meaning within the universe. Anything that called on a past enemy or experience you would probably hate without question. I’m just gonna agree to disagree here, since a conversation clearly isn’t what you’re looking for.
I never said they were "lazy." It seems pretty clear that the Dread were made during the delay, so what we got is impressive by my standards.
lol fuck byf he almost killed Destiny
Bruh what
@@jerrbear5958 I ain’t stutter