Yep, but definitely don’t hesitate to play that way if you’re fighting someone who doesn’t know the MU well enough to find and/or punish the holes in your offense. Gotta find a balance between properly placing your offense and not giving the opponent so much respect that you don’t spend enough time doing something your character excels at.
This is something that absolutely needs to be overcome in terms of mindset. Balrog (Boxer) is a rushdown character, but his style is bait and punish. He has a bunch of tools once he's started his offence, but as far as just head to wall tactics you can't just constantly buttons. I main Rog and its so satisfying to frustrate people into gap closing as well as putting pressure on people who are trying to zone me. Just know your character and what they can't do and it becomes much better to play.
I just played 24 games of Skullgirls and only won 4 of them. Sajam's videos helped me focus on learning rather than wanting to win, and over the course of the matches, I learned how to pushblock consistently and how to hit confirm more easily and to play defensively when needed, and I even had a 2v1 comeback. These kinds of videos are what the FGC needs in order to help initiate new comers more easily
4 out of 24. I wish man, if I win 4 games I'm at least playing like 50 games. Skullgirls is brutal, and it probably doesn't help I'm not super good, but it's fun when you do win.
@@trashpigeon1164 You're telling me, playing trios and solos or duos is terrifying, I got ToD'd by a Double using her lvl 3 super on a duo team. But it also balances out when you beat someone's entire team with one character
Yea, many ppl forget that - when you are learning a new game - winning isnt the actual important thing at first. Usually u can learn more from losing than winning. U see what your enemy did and see his tendencies/patterns, and should especially focus to counter that and adapt. Just doing that over and over again will make u a better player for sure. Also especially practice/lab moves u have problems finding answers too. A strong enemy should force you to constantly have to adapt to win, so from my experience your best training partner is somebody who is a little bit stronger than you (So that, in case you are a person who needs wins to stay motivated, you ll be able to get kind of a "reward" for doing very well and giving more than 100% --> so that u realize u actually have a chance if u give it your absolutely everything nd r super focused). Your worst enemy is your own motivation and mindset and i think anybody can get good as long as you dont give up and strive to improve
An important skill that's quite rare in the FGC is how to articulate complex & abstract concepts in simple terms. Being able to break down and explain things well is very different from being highly skilled. There's not many high-level pros that can explain very well what they do or how they win outside of specific examples. So its more than just having the knowledge. Its being able to communicate that knowledge as well. We're lucky to have Sajam but we def need more teachers in the FGC to break down high level theories. Because unfortunately there is no fighting game that even touches these concepts. Even just knowing about them is a step in the right direction towards figuring what you're supposed to do in neutral.
imagine doing a thinking exercise and still being asked, "What about X character/game?". As fun and informative as it is to hear Sajam doing this kind of breakdown, if you're still asking him specifically, "What about X?" you're failing yourself. You may be given an answer that enlightens you momentarily, but you're not trying to use the tool you've been given. As individuals, the people you play, the characters you choose, and your style in a fighting game is all different, so there's no right answer. You have to assess yourself, and your opponent, and decipher the puzzle so YOU can adapt.
Yes this is something that bugs me a bit as well. Whenever Sajam explains a concept there's always someone who wants it to be spelled out to them how the theory applies exactly to their character or a specific MU. I feel its a problem with many other action game genres where combat is mostly a mindless affair. You can easily hit flow state where combat is very routine & predictable with a limited scope of possible scenarios. In fighting games its less about the characters on screen and more about the dance between two human minds. And that requires engaging in more active thinking, reading and outsmarting your opponent. Some people aren't interested in explorative play or don't realise they need to exercise adaptive thinking over rote thinking. They seem to want a step-by-step script to follow.
@@MrOzzification Well said, I definitely agree. I think due to the increased popularity of gaming over the past 15 years or so, this is common in all genres, but It's more pronounced in games that have head-to-head because people don't acknowledge that their opponents' choices were their keys to victory. It's always the game's fault, or the characters' fault.
That's why when asked about Vaseraga vs Naramaya, his response was "what do you think?" Followed by him classifying the characters. That was a good teaching moment. He gave you the tools so that you could reach the answer yourself but didn't just say "oh Naramaya wants to keep him out." He's showing his fans how to think critically
@@MrOzzification Lotsa lazy bums around that just wanna know but don't wanna learn. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. Smh
Another way to interpret who the aggressor is is who wants to play reactively and who wants to play proactively. Some characters will try to put you in their no-no ranges and then just react to whatever you try to do to get out of it. A zoner might suddenly have to be the aggressor, because the rushdown is now all up in their face, and needs to be proactive to get the aggressor out of their face. For the card game analogy, that’d be who has the stronger board state - the one with the weaker state needs to improve their state, the one with the stronger board only seeks to react to maintain their relative strength. As a general rule the archetypes want to start a certain way due to the nature of the matchup, but this dynamic can change over the course of a match.
Another way to look at is asking yourself: What's each players win condition and how do they get there (and what makes them lose?) Then acting on that. The road that leads to the win could be called the gameplan.
As someone who has played MTG competitively for many years, the tie-ins to things innately familiar to me have really helped me understand different things about fighting games and how to approach them. Thank you.
Funny how I started Playing KI this weekend and I found myself having to go through that thought proccess. I'm playing Jago and was approaching most match-ups as a zoner, until I came across Spinal for the first time, he just started eating my fireballs and I realised I had to become the aggressor. I got bodied anyway, obviously. It's probably because I'm new, but some match-ups feel brutal in this game.
I recently started to try KI (free version) out myself. After finishing the basic tutorials and being forced to play Riptor as the current rotating character, I walked away so impressed. I don't know if i'll be taking this game seriously (there's SO MUCH to learn), but DAMNIT this game has so many cool ideas, and the presentation is top-tier. I will NEVER get tired of the announcer, and the music syncing to combos & menu navigation playing scales is such a beautiful touch ::chef's kiss::
@@guitaroach Killer Instinct could have been one of the biggest fighting games ever, if it wasn't on fuckin Xbox. It was dead before it had a chance. Its such a good game. Hopefully Microsoft uses this momentum to make a new one
@@guitaroach Yeah, man I'm feeling the same. I've been playing non-stop either, really like the game. Btw, you can get Jago on the free version, just do the shadow lords, or whatever it's called, doing the first couple mission, basically the tutorial, unlocks him for free. If I had to play Riptor as my first character i'd be so fucked, i can't even begin to understand how to play that character
th-cam.com/video/_q4pyoSNuNc/w-d-xo.html ki.infil.net/ This recent video and website should be really useful to you. Especially since you play Jago. Welcome to KI
I know this probably won't be read by Sajam, but I want you to know that this video actually got me thinking differently. I was playing MK11 today. I was doing a Kombat League match. I was Sheeva and my opponent was Joker. I have my Sheeva flow chart that I go to, Sheeva is a grappler, and normally I am very aggressive. I stay on people's heads and throw them. This Joker had all the buttons that beat my buttons. My flow chart meant nothing and he dominated me. After the first match I hit rematch but then started thinking. Ok, he is the aggressor. He is coming at me and beating all my buttons, which means I need to slow it down, I have to play keep away. So the next match starts and I back up. I start throwing out my fireballs, and using my ground stomp to keep him away. Once he got into a predicable pattern I would then teleport stomp him and back up to repeat the process. I ended up beating the Joker twice and taking the set. The mentality of "who is the aggressor" was very specific in getting me a win.
It is infuriating, Maddening, to see you put so much work into getting people to understand things like this, and how they can develop on their own, and instead of them absorbing it and growing, they start begging you for answers to the test questions instead of working it out for themselves. Your patience and commitment are pretty incredible and your audience should realise how much they owe you.
This really depends on how your opponent plays the character too, some people would rather use average rushdown tools in a character than an op zoning just because it fits their style more but they also really like the design of the character and things like that
Sajam should go over how we should approach mirror matches because in both of the players cases, they both know what their game plan is but it puts most players in a weird situation.
I feel like in those cases you do just the general tricks to see if the opponent does know of them as well. Generally, you're playing the character to their strengths 100% and missing less windows of opportunity than your opposition to win.
@@MoldMonkey93 That is true but there are some mirror matches where it gets super dicey. Lets use characters that focus on zoning for example, playing the lame zoning strat is pretty hard since both of you know that your strengths are at a distance. I just thought it would be a good discussion and see what other people's opinions would be if they got thrown into this situation.
Mirror matchup usually comes down to how deep you understand your character. If you and your opponent have the same level of understanding then it will go down to who have the best fundamentals. Imho.
@@thepuppetmaster9284 Knee VS JimmyJTran Bryan mirror in Tekken is an excellent example of this. Knee considers Jimmy the better Bryan main because Jimmy is the only one seeing consistent success with Bryan at a high level. And Knee doesn't feel confident he can win tournaments with Bryan. But Jimmy can't beat Knee in a FT10 Bryan mirror match. Not because Knee has a better Bryan but because he's knows how to defend against his own main better and has better fundamentals.
This is definitely one of the things that helped me immensely when climbing tekken ranks. Every match I thought what my approach should be, and whenever I noticed my ass getting beat, I realized I'm not doing what I set out to do, and instead play what they want me to play. That's when I either turned the match around completely, or was simply outmatched and couldn't keep up. I felt much better about losing and winning at that point. And that's after reaching a big plateau, very rewarding.
Yet another great video. I love how you approach learning fighting games as a matter of mindset and mental strategy. I rarely hear people talk about it, but it's so useful when approaching a new game.
Came back to re-watch this and I have to say. This is an amazing video. Boxing also has many of the same attributes with styles (Outboxing=zoner, Infighter=rushdown, Puncher/Slugger=grappler).
The way I watched this video to initially help me figure how to deal with Oleander bahaha. Was not expecting TFH to get brought up in this video but here we are
Beautiful explication of things, Besieds teaching people fighting games your inadvertently teaching people. How to criticaly think :) and this is why I love your content :)
I’m thinking all the matchup with Ed and suddenly Sajam talked about Ed at 11:01 which is similar to what i think about Ed can play slow but also fast as aggressor. Thank you for the video Sajam 👍
in league they call a team's goals their "win condition" to adapt it to your video here, in cammy vs dhalsim cammy's win condition is to get in and do big damage and dhalsim's win condition is to keep her out and chip away at her health pool (very, very generally speaking)
This sounds unrelated but there is a great magic the gather article called "who's the beatdown" that also addressing this concept really well. Every character is going to have a comfort zone but how you apply your strengths is always relative to what you opponent is doing. You are rarely ALWAYS any one role.
The use of card-game analogies for other genres is very interesting -- I see LS do it a lot for LoL--, they are also great outside of archetypal analysis, i.e. there are many MTG decks that have to make use very specific tools in their tertiary or quaternary forms because of how match-ups work, they are very specific examples, but they illustrate how sometimes what a deck WANTS to do is very different from what it HAS to do in certain match-ups.
Good look at the big picture of matchups and the thought process. TFH has such a roster of just seven, so it's easier to know all the matchups than SFV or T7, imo. Some characters have such good zoning, it feels like a seriously uphill battle, even w/anti-zoning tech from vids & Discord. Velvet, Peacock, Guile, etc. Nice vid.
One thing I found interesting was that the graph of Legends of Runeterra indicates that Control beats Aggro. Which, for Magic the gathering, usually the opposite is true. It's interesting how different the two games work. If I'm not mistaken, the triangle in MtG looks like: "Control>Midrange>Aggro>Control" with "combo" being the piece out of the triangle due to it being a very exotic and unpredictable deck archetype in MtG.
I was just thinking of Vaseraga vs. Narmaya as I watched the video, since I'd recently had to do back to back sets against Narmaya players as Vas. That matchup is kinda crazy, both players are jockeying around for different narrow bands of effective range. Vas wants to be right up in her face, but he also wants to be at full screen. There's a spot where far L and Instinction are good tools but just either side you're prey to either mist finers or her aggressive jump arc and faster buttons. Pretty fun matchup but it hurts my brain.
Never thought about it like that, ehat I do is see what my opponent is punishing and stop doing those moves, and if something is working, I don't stop doing it until it stops working. I never thought about thinking about the matchup before the fight.
That’s because it’s not possible to think about the matchup before understanding what’s punishable and safe in said matchup. And even if you do, you’re going to lose to the same flowchart over and over no matter how aware you are that you “have to keep them out”
A couple months ago I was playing as Cammy vs Menat. Before the match started I had the idea of doing Raw drill in the beginning of the match. It worked pretty well and won me my 1st round. But for some reason I stopped doing it bc I felt it was too risky. Needless to say, I lost the next 2 matches. Iono why I stopped doing it, should have believed in myself more lol.
Proactive/reactive is a dynamic in every game. In a staredown at medium close range, are you looking to throw out an attack, or wait for them to throw something out and you counter it?
the arrows on the graphic i think are backwards. at least in mtg, aggro has been what you use to beat control which has the tools to control the game vs combo decks which have the sideways game plan to randomly win the game if aggro doesnt mess with it.
There is a lot of deep understanding here. I have to internalize this and think how to adopt the thought proccess for Tekken. We dont really have zoners.I would have to think about the specific architypes to Tekken.
It's this kinda part of fighting games that is either completely easy due to the game being more system heavy or the hardest thing due to character mechanics being too reliable even up to high levels. I end up playing a lot of theory fighter with this to the point I just develop a hate for a particular titles because I think one character covers too much and has command throws, projectiles etc. A lot of times the better player wins here but when both sides are competent enough.....you end up not understanding when you swore you did.
Think I'm more of a mid-range player so I gravitate toward all around types. This is why I'm trying Zooey in Granblue because she seems the type though i may be mistaken...
This of course, requires you to know the match-ups of the game. 16 steps ahead of me here, who, 3 years later in some games, is still figuring out my own character. (Also, I feel like figuring out characters when you're at lower levels falls apart a bit at lower levels because everything down here is UNGA. BUNGA. BASH! every day, all day and twice on Sunday.)
Great video, but that chart at the beggining is wrong. Aggro beats control, control beats midrange, midrange beat aggro, and combo can be aggro, midrange or control.
I wonder how this applies to a game like Tekken...the more I think about it the less idea I have on where to put each character 🤔 looks like every character can do pretty much everything, obviously some characters are better at some things but is not as obvious as Dhalsim vs Zangief 🤔
TK means Tiger Knee, which refers to Sagat's special of the same name. The original motion for it (using numpad notation) is 2369+kick and although it's a grounded move, people use "TK" to refer to moves you can perform in the air as early as possible by buffering the input on the ground before finishing it with either jump forward or backward + button.
@@real_drainer A lot of people argue that things like midrange and tempo aren't main strategy archtypes at least in Magic the gathering, MTG top8 for example, only classify decks as aggro, control ans combo.
What's the difference between a combo character to an Aggro...I feel like in Smash its almost more or less the same
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Depends on how good their approach options are. A character like Joker has an insane combo path, but his approach options are quite a commitment due to endlag and safety on shield, which means he'll mostly play defensively around the opponent to catch a mistake and start the combo. Meanwhile, a character like fox loves to be in the opponent's face due to his buttons being pretty safe and fast.
The problem is that in a card game you run out of resources. In the control-aggro matchup, control wins because the aggro player is out of resources and the control player's not. In a fighting game, you have access to full resources at all times. The parallel still stands, but I think that fighting games are way too deep to be reduced to card games. You play a card game and then have to wait for the next expansion to add some more fun, it gets boring. in a fighting game, you can play the same game for decades without receiving any update and still have tons and tons of fun (MvC2, KI, SF2T, SF4, Meele, Brawl, ecc ecc). Fighting games are just something way way way better and deeper than just a 3 ways pyramid scheme.
Sajam could explain the finer points of organizing a sock drawer and I would find it amusing and informative.
Marie Kondo’s theorycrafting is f***ing GARBAGE tech and will get you completely blown up in a real sock match.
And there still would be someone who would ask "but what about the stripped socks I bought in a sale last year, where do I put them?"
your scam advertising tactics are comparable to a roblox's scam advertisement bots, it's hilarious lmao
@@shiela740 ???
"Sajam explains 'Who's the Beatdown' to non-Magic players"
Damn, my thoughts exactly. Lol
Wow, soon as Sajam started, I literally Googled Mike Flores's old article on "Who's the Beatdown?". Glad I wasn't the only one, lol
I immediately thought about that article!
Sajam: brings up match ups
Magic players in the chat: ohh it's just "who's the beatdown".
I literally said this in the live chat lol
"Rush down characters aren't always aggro" is something I've been trying to work on lol
Yep, but definitely don’t hesitate to play that way if you’re fighting someone who doesn’t know the MU well enough to find and/or punish the holes in your offense. Gotta find a balance between properly placing your offense and not giving the opponent so much respect that you don’t spend enough time doing something your character excels at.
Its more like a 90% of the time they are thing. Rushdown still tends to not get too close to grapplers.
Bro same i play simon richter and young link for fun but i rush in even tho they are zoners
This is something that absolutely needs to be overcome in terms of mindset. Balrog (Boxer) is a rushdown character, but his style is bait and punish. He has a bunch of tools once he's started his offence, but as far as just head to wall tactics you can't just constantly buttons. I main Rog and its so satisfying to frustrate people into gap closing as well as putting pressure on people who are trying to zone me. Just know your character and what they can't do and it becomes much better to play.
I just played 24 games of Skullgirls and only won 4 of them. Sajam's videos helped me focus on learning rather than wanting to win, and over the course of the matches, I learned how to pushblock consistently and how to hit confirm more easily and to play defensively when needed, and I even had a 2v1 comeback. These kinds of videos are what the FGC needs in order to help initiate new comers more easily
4 out of 24. I wish man, if I win 4 games I'm at least playing like 50 games. Skullgirls is brutal, and it probably doesn't help I'm not super good, but it's fun when you do win.
@@trashpigeon1164 You're telling me, playing trios and solos or duos is terrifying, I got ToD'd by a Double using her lvl 3 super on a duo team. But it also balances out when you beat someone's entire team with one character
Yea, many ppl forget that - when you are learning a new game - winning isnt the actual important thing at first. Usually u can learn more from losing than winning. U see what your enemy did and see his tendencies/patterns, and should especially focus to counter that and adapt. Just doing that over and over again will make u a better player for sure.
Also especially practice/lab moves u have problems finding answers too. A strong enemy should force you to constantly have to adapt to win, so from my experience your best training partner is somebody who is a little bit stronger than you (So that, in case you are a person who needs wins to stay motivated, you ll be able to get kind of a "reward" for doing very well and giving more than 100% --> so that u realize u actually have a chance if u give it your absolutely everything nd r super focused). Your worst enemy is your own motivation and mindset and i think anybody can get good as long as you dont give up and strive to improve
Yea, I love how this channel talks about all the right mindsets for learning fighting games.
A bit late but try to find players on your level
It makes games more fun
Sajam again proves he has deep knowledge of the FGC. One of the best announcers for a reason. I havent even thought about a lot of these before
An important skill that's quite rare in the FGC is how to articulate complex & abstract concepts in simple terms.
Being able to break down and explain things well is very different from being highly skilled. There's not many high-level pros that can explain very well what they do or how they win outside of specific examples. So its more than just having the knowledge. Its being able to communicate that knowledge as well.
We're lucky to have Sajam but we def need more teachers in the FGC to break down high level theories.
Because unfortunately there is no fighting game that even touches these concepts. Even just knowing about them is a step in the right direction towards figuring what you're supposed to do in neutral.
I think sajam sees the big picture of competitive games better than any other commentator I've seen
imagine doing a thinking exercise and still being asked, "What about X character/game?". As fun and informative as it is to hear Sajam doing this kind of breakdown, if you're still asking him specifically, "What about X?" you're failing yourself. You may be given an answer that enlightens you momentarily, but you're not trying to use the tool you've been given. As individuals, the people you play, the characters you choose, and your style in a fighting game is all different, so there's no right answer. You have to assess yourself, and your opponent, and decipher the puzzle so YOU can adapt.
Yes this is something that bugs me a bit as well. Whenever Sajam explains a concept there's always someone who wants it to be spelled out to them how the theory applies exactly to their character or a specific MU.
I feel its a problem with many other action game genres where combat is mostly a mindless affair. You can easily hit flow state where combat is very routine & predictable with a limited scope of possible scenarios. In fighting games its less about the characters on screen and more about the dance between two human minds. And that requires engaging in more active thinking, reading and outsmarting your opponent.
Some people aren't interested in explorative play or don't realise they need to exercise adaptive thinking over rote thinking. They seem to want a step-by-step script to follow.
@@MrOzzification Well said, I definitely agree. I think due to the increased popularity of gaming over the past 15 years or so, this is common in all genres, but It's more pronounced in games that have head-to-head because people don't acknowledge that their opponents' choices were their keys to victory. It's always the game's fault, or the characters' fault.
That's why when asked about Vaseraga vs Naramaya, his response was "what do you think?" Followed by him classifying the characters. That was a good teaching moment. He gave you the tools so that you could reach the answer yourself but didn't just say "oh Naramaya wants to keep him out." He's showing his fans how to think critically
@@MrOzzification Lotsa lazy bums around that just wanna know but don't wanna learn. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. Smh
Another way to interpret who the aggressor is is who wants to play reactively and who wants to play proactively. Some characters will try to put you in their no-no ranges and then just react to whatever you try to do to get out of it. A zoner might suddenly have to be the aggressor, because the rushdown is now all up in their face, and needs to be proactive to get the aggressor out of their face. For the card game analogy, that’d be who has the stronger board state - the one with the weaker state needs to improve their state, the one with the stronger board only seeks to react to maintain their relative strength. As a general rule the archetypes want to start a certain way due to the nature of the matchup, but this dynamic can change over the course of a match.
Another way to look at is asking yourself: What's each players win condition and how do they get there (and what makes them lose?) Then acting on that. The road that leads to the win could be called the gameplan.
As someone who has played MTG competitively for many years, the tie-ins to things innately familiar to me have really helped me understand different things about fighting games and how to approach them. Thank you.
Funny how I started Playing KI this weekend and I found myself having to go through that thought proccess. I'm playing Jago and was approaching most match-ups as a zoner, until I came across Spinal for the first time, he just started eating my fireballs and I realised I had to become the aggressor.
I got bodied anyway, obviously. It's probably because I'm new, but some match-ups feel brutal in this game.
I recently started to try KI (free version) out myself. After finishing the basic tutorials and being forced to play Riptor as the current rotating character, I walked away so impressed. I don't know if i'll be taking this game seriously (there's SO MUCH to learn), but DAMNIT this game has so many cool ideas, and the presentation is top-tier. I will NEVER get tired of the announcer, and the music syncing to combos & menu navigation playing scales is such a beautiful touch ::chef's kiss::
@@guitaroach Killer Instinct could have been one of the biggest fighting games ever, if it wasn't on fuckin Xbox. It was dead before it had a chance. Its such a good game.
Hopefully Microsoft uses this momentum to make a new one
@@guitaroach Yeah, man I'm feeling the same. I've been playing non-stop either, really like the game. Btw, you can get Jago on the free version, just do the shadow lords, or whatever it's called, doing the first couple mission, basically the tutorial, unlocks him for free.
If I had to play Riptor as my first character i'd be so fucked, i can't even begin to understand how to play that character
th-cam.com/video/_q4pyoSNuNc/w-d-xo.html
ki.infil.net/
This recent video and website should be really useful to you. Especially since you play Jago. Welcome to KI
I recently started playing ki and it’s hard to figure out this chart when you play eyedol who is constantly changing between rushdown and zoner
I know this probably won't be read by Sajam, but I want you to know that this video actually got me thinking differently.
I was playing MK11 today. I was doing a Kombat League match. I was Sheeva and my opponent was Joker. I have my Sheeva flow chart that I go to, Sheeva is a grappler, and normally I am very aggressive. I stay on people's heads and throw them. This Joker had all the buttons that beat my buttons. My flow chart meant nothing and he dominated me.
After the first match I hit rematch but then started thinking. Ok, he is the aggressor. He is coming at me and beating all my buttons, which means I need to slow it down, I have to play keep away.
So the next match starts and I back up. I start throwing out my fireballs, and using my ground stomp to keep him away. Once he got into a predicable pattern I would then teleport stomp him and back up to repeat the process. I ended up beating the Joker twice and taking the set.
The mentality of "who is the aggressor" was very specific in getting me a win.
I read all the comments! Glad to hear it helped reshape the way you were playing the MU, and thanks for leaving a comment!
It is infuriating, Maddening, to see you put so much work into getting people to understand things like this, and how they can develop on their own, and instead of them absorbing it and growing, they start begging you for answers to the test questions instead of working it out for themselves. Your patience and commitment are pretty incredible and your audience should realise how much they owe you.
This really depends on how your opponent plays the character too, some people would rather use average rushdown tools in a character than an op zoning just because it fits their style more but they also really like the design of the character and things like that
"Tasty Steve vs Sajam's arm"
I was literally thinking about how much this sounded like a swim video and the fgc/ccg crossover concepts and then you perfectly transitioned to it!
Sajam should go over how we should approach mirror matches because in both of the players cases, they both know what their game plan is but it puts most players in a weird situation.
I feel like in those cases you do just the general tricks to see if the opponent does know of them as well. Generally, you're playing the character to their strengths 100% and missing less windows of opportunity than your opposition to win.
@@MoldMonkey93 That is true but there are some mirror matches where it gets super dicey. Lets use characters that focus on zoning for example, playing the lame zoning strat is pretty hard since both of you know that your strengths are at a distance. I just thought it would be a good discussion and see what other people's opinions would be if they got thrown into this situation.
Mirror matchup usually comes down to how deep you understand your character. If you and your opponent have the same level of understanding then it will go down to who have the best fundamentals. Imho.
@@thepuppetmaster9284 Knee VS JimmyJTran Bryan mirror in Tekken is an excellent example of this.
Knee considers Jimmy the better Bryan main because Jimmy is the only one seeing consistent success with Bryan at a high level. And Knee doesn't feel confident he can win tournaments with Bryan.
But Jimmy can't beat Knee in a FT10 Bryan mirror match. Not because Knee has a better Bryan but because he's knows how to defend against his own main better and has better fundamentals.
I would put 5-5 MUs under tempo and value, just because your playing the same character doesn't mean you value and risk are the same
This is definitely one of the things that helped me immensely when climbing tekken ranks. Every match I thought what my approach should be, and whenever I noticed my ass getting beat, I realized I'm not doing what I set out to do, and instead play what they want me to play. That's when I either turned the match around completely, or was simply outmatched and couldn't keep up. I felt much better about losing and winning at that point. And that's after reaching a big plateau, very rewarding.
Yet another great video. I love how you approach learning fighting games as a matter of mindset and mental strategy. I rarely hear people talk about it, but it's so useful when approaching a new game.
Came back to re-watch this and I have to say. This is an amazing video. Boxing also has many of the same attributes with styles (Outboxing=zoner, Infighter=rushdown, Puncher/Slugger=grappler).
The way I watched this video to initially help me figure how to deal with Oleander bahaha. Was not expecting TFH to get brought up in this video but here we are
Take a shot everytime Sajam fixes his hair.
☠️
Beautiful explication of things,
Besieds teaching people fighting games your inadvertently teaching people. How to criticaly think :) and this is why I love your content :)
I’m thinking all the matchup with Ed and suddenly Sajam talked about Ed at 11:01 which is similar to what i think about Ed can play slow but also fast as aggressor. Thank you for the video Sajam 👍
Can this be applied to sandwiches?
All of it yes
Really helpful thought exercise. Definitely going to try to incorporate this into my play
in league they call a team's goals their "win condition"
to adapt it to your video here, in cammy vs dhalsim cammy's win condition is to get in and do big damage and dhalsim's win condition is to keep her out and chip away at her health pool (very, very generally speaking)
Yeah I talk about win conditions in match ups/commentary quiet a bit
@@SupermanSajam sorry man i swear i watched the whole thing but didnt recall you using that term. my bad
@@KTSamurai1 he meant that he uses it in general, not in the vid.
He did use it at 1:40 but the point is that we appreciate that the knowledge is there.
This sounds unrelated but there is a great magic the gather article called "who's the beatdown" that also addressing this concept really well. Every character is going to have a comfort zone but how you apply your strengths is always relative to what you opponent is doing. You are rarely ALWAYS any one role.
Yah, it can fluctuate during a game.
The use of card-game analogies for other genres is very interesting -- I see LS do it a lot for LoL--, they are also great outside of archetypal analysis, i.e. there are many MTG decks that have to make use very specific tools in their tertiary or quaternary forms because of how match-ups work, they are very specific examples, but they illustrate how sometimes what a deck WANTS to do is very different from what it HAS to do in certain match-ups.
how me and my fellow paint eating, glue sniffing, grappler mains think about match-ups:
and that's just about our thought process
At the loading screen of a match, I think "what mistakes do I often make in this matchup?"
Good look at the big picture of matchups and the thought process.
TFH has such a roster of just seven, so it's easier to know all the matchups than SFV or T7, imo.
Some characters have such good zoning, it feels like a seriously uphill battle, even w/anti-zoning tech from vids & Discord.
Velvet, Peacock, Guile, etc. Nice vid.
Damn brian you got some
Good ass tekken knowledge
Always love your content Sajam, informative and entertaining, keep it up!
Unexpected swimstrim reference
One thing I found interesting was that the graph of Legends of Runeterra indicates that Control beats Aggro. Which, for Magic the gathering, usually the opposite is true. It's interesting how different the two games work. If I'm not mistaken, the triangle in MtG looks like: "Control>Midrange>Aggro>Control" with "combo" being the piece out of the triangle due to it being a very exotic and unpredictable deck archetype in MtG.
i dont know about what gane you are talking about but this is interesting i sub and like
Knew you were watching swim when your title for the LoR video was about yr hair
hope LTG sits long and watches this it will help in greatly!
LTG was the guy asking Sajam the obvious matchups instead of working them out himself.
This is a five head video for sure, insanely well done
I was just thinking of Vaseraga vs. Narmaya as I watched the video, since I'd recently had to do back to back sets against Narmaya players as Vas.
That matchup is kinda crazy, both players are jockeying around for different narrow bands of effective range. Vas wants to be right up in her face, but he also wants to be at full screen. There's a spot where far L and Instinction are good tools but just either side you're prey to either mist finers or her aggressive jump arc and faster buttons. Pretty fun matchup but it hurts my brain.
Just started playing Zappa, for ever match up I have to think about this in 4 different ways.
Love you sajam also the detective videos are amazing
Never thought about it like that, ehat I do is see what my opponent is punishing and stop doing those moves, and if something is working, I don't stop doing it until it stops working. I never thought about thinking about the matchup before the fight.
That’s because it’s not possible to think about the matchup before understanding what’s punishable and safe in said matchup. And even if you do, you’re going to lose to the same flowchart over and over no matter how aware you are that you “have to keep them out”
I love card game comparisons
What could be best. I love me some swim the bubble bear LoR content and im also a big FG fan 😍
4:36 aggro/rushdown , control/zoner, combo/grappler
6:34 cammy, dhalsim, zangief, ryu
A couple months ago I was playing as Cammy vs Menat. Before the match started I had the idea of doing Raw drill in the beginning of the match. It worked pretty well and won me my 1st round. But for some reason I stopped doing it bc I felt it was too risky. Needless to say, I lost the next 2 matches. Iono why I stopped doing it, should have believed in myself more lol.
Me: If I’m down, play offense.
If I’m up, play defense.
This is good advice for life in general
Thank you youtube algorithm
So what I got was Order-Sol and Sol are both Argo but Order-Sol is agro and value but Sol is argo and tempo.
as a grappler main, FUCK POISON
anyways ima hear this and see what I can learn from it
Zoners have a weak jaw that can't chew bagels go for that
Unless your playing an nrs game...
Damn it I was thinking about it completely wrong. Gief player let me try to throw him to assert my dominance
How would this be translated to tekken? Since archetypes are very different from other FG
Proactive/reactive is a dynamic in every game. In a staredown at medium close range, are you looking to throw out an attack, or wait for them to throw something out and you counter it?
the arrows on the graphic i think are backwards. at least in mtg, aggro has been what you use to beat control which has the tools to control the game vs combo decks which have the sideways game plan to randomly win the game if aggro doesnt mess with it.
A lot of characters being able to be played midrange is what I like about fighting games. Playstyle is a lot less rigid.
There is a lot of deep understanding here. I have to internalize this and think how to adopt the thought proccess for Tekken. We dont really have zoners.I would have to think about the specific architypes to Tekken.
Anyone with a projectile, good tracking moves or keepout tools could be a zoner.
It's this kinda part of fighting games that is either completely easy due to the game being more system heavy or the hardest thing due to character mechanics being too reliable even up to high levels. I end up playing a lot of theory fighter with this to the point I just develop a hate for a particular titles because I think one character covers too much and has command throws, projectiles etc. A lot of times the better player wins here but when both sides are competent enough.....you end up not understanding when you swore you did.
Great content
Think I'm more of a mid-range player so I gravitate toward all around types. This is why I'm trying Zooey in Granblue because she seems the type though i may be mistaken...
"If a rushdown character has the life lead, they can force the zoner to come in" unless you are playing mk...
Why stop rushing down if you've used it to get the life lead?
@@jojox1733 Because it can be safer not going in.
This of course, requires you to know the match-ups of the game.
16 steps ahead of me here, who, 3 years later in some games, is still figuring out my own character.
(Also, I feel like figuring out characters when you're at lower levels falls apart a bit at lower levels because everything down here is UNGA. BUNGA. BASH! every day, all day and twice on Sunday.)
The opposite actually. This is explaining how to figure out the match up between your character and theirs
I'm pretty sure guile is defensive balance not a hard zoner.
Great video, but that chart at the beggining is wrong. Aggro beats control, control beats midrange, midrange beat aggro, and combo can be aggro, midrange or control.
I wonder how this applies to a game like Tekken...the more I think about it the less idea I have on where to put each character 🤔 looks like every character can do pretty much everything, obviously some characters are better at some things but is not as obvious as Dhalsim vs Zangief 🤔
I get the feeling that, grapplers are just a bad archetype. Because usually, they lose to zoners, and don't have defensive options against rushdown.
Really depends on the game
@@usedtobereign I assume so.
I'd think of them as a reverse zoner. They have their effective range close to them, rather than far away.
What kind of character is Vega in SFV? Aggro?
Probably more midrange, but vega has to be the aggresor in some matchups
yall should read Book of the five rings, and funny enough its much like a sandwich.
MTG strats in fighters? I'm sooooo down!
What does TK Fireball mean?
It’s when you use a special as low in the air as possible
TK means Tiger Knee, which refers to Sagat's special of the same name. The original motion for it (using numpad notation) is 2369+kick and although it's a grounded move, people use "TK" to refer to moves you can perform in the air as early as possible by buffering the input on the ground before finishing it with either jump forward or backward + button.
@@Lipidman0 TIL ty
No dislikes?! Nice!
In MTG aggro>control->combo->aggro.
Combo>aggro? How?
aggro has no means to stop an infinite combo, thopter foundry+sword of melek+time sphere for example.
@@HighLanderPonyYT ops is sword of the meek.
He shows a chart in the video and you forgot midrange
@@real_drainer A lot of people argue that things like midrange and tempo aren't main strategy archtypes at least in Magic the gathering, MTG top8 for example, only classify decks as aggro, control ans combo.
Always do this lol
man no one cares about this what we want to know is how you got that majestic beard
Combo player, playing a grappler doesnt sit well, theyd play vortex
What's the difference between a combo character to an Aggro...I feel like in Smash its almost more or less the same
Depends on how good their approach options are. A character like Joker has an insane combo path, but his approach options are quite a commitment due to endlag and safety on shield, which means he'll mostly play defensively around the opponent to catch a mistake and start the combo.
Meanwhile, a character like fox loves to be in the opponent's face due to his buttons being pretty safe and fast.
I feel like aggro is more like rushdown while combo is more setup based like Ibuki or smth. Oki blenders, crossups/vortexes etc.
HighLanderPony so which is grappler supposed to be
The problem is that in a card game you run out of resources. In the control-aggro matchup, control wins because the aggro player is out of resources and the control player's not. In a fighting game, you have access to full resources at all times. The parallel still stands, but I think that fighting games are way too deep to be reduced to card games. You play a card game and then have to wait for the next expansion to add some more fun, it gets boring. in a fighting game, you can play the same game for decades without receiving any update and still have tons and tons of fun (MvC2, KI, SF2T, SF4, Meele, Brawl, ecc ecc). Fighting games are just something way way way better and deeper than just a 3 ways pyramid scheme.
im the 777th like :)