The true fighting game experience is spending 30 hours in training mode trying to learn every detail of your chosen main before jumping online and losing to a Ken player who only knows how to do DP and jump HK.
People don’t understand the give and take. Labbing is necessary, but if you’re spending most of your time in there trying combo starters that end up doing a lot of damage, but are terrible neutral/footsies tools, then you might only have one shot to do your gimmicky combo. You will beat players doing this, but it can stunt your growth into playing a single player game. Learn your character’s big whiff punish, but it’s just as important as a poke or anti/air.
@@Killopotamus But what about games that reward the lack of experience AND labbing? I play a game where a single button fucks neutral (DBFZ). It's a game where perfecting neutral still provides you a huge advantage despite that mechanic while allowing you to deal with said mechanic, but simply trying to learn it is near impossible because 95% of players just spam that one move leading to you just looking to punish it. You can't lab neutral, you can't learn it online. What are you supposed to do?
@@PathBeyondTheDark team fighting games with assists are not neutral heavy games naturally. The neutral is short and based on avoidance really. UMVC3 and DBFZ reward great offense/great defense, but the neutral is just short, a few decisions maybe 1 and then boom someone is blocking/pressuring. Its just the nature of those games unfortunately, that's why I don't play them anymore personally. The combo system is amazing but its just not my style in a competitive aspect
@@PathBeyondTheDark You just answered your own question. Stop thinking about Neutral and focus more on punishing or preventing their super dash. If you're playing rock, paper, scissors and you're opponent is beating you with a shovel, you're going to lose 100% of the time. You're trying to play Street Fighter, they're playing DBFZ.
That's a bold opinion, given that the biggest names in the fighting game community most likely learned in arcades, where the only way to learn was by "fighting people better than you and learning through defeat". It's far more likely that the FGC just want the genre to remain niche to avoid The Casuals (scare-cord), so they indulge in contradictory gatekeeping bullshit to force new players who "can't take the abuse" (read: "don't want to associate with assholes) out.
@@ZefulStarson Maybe. I suppose my comment oversimplifies the motivation behind the gate keeping. There could be a more defined explanation for the gate keeping than simply forgetting what it was like to be new. I noticed a lot of other comments have more detailed theories about the psychology behind it. Regardless of the motivation behind the gatekeeping, I think its ridiculous and awful behavior that prevents people from enjoying the game.
@@markalexander6036 Gatekeeping is nonsensical by default in a field like this. What are you going to do if you're below some arbitrary threshold? Lose matches? That's about it. Now, if we're talking about something like being a fireman and not having enough strength to control the hose or carry someone or break through doors or whatever, then we can talk about "gatekeeping", if we can even call it as such. Gatekeeping in video games is like if you gatekept someone from eating pasta because they don't do the required number of rotations with heir fork or something and you're mad because "that's not how you eat pasta".
"Some of the happiest players I know are people who know so little about the games they play. They play like 6 games and say, dude these games are tight, I love playing these games. They don't care if they win or lose." I need to try and recapture this feeling. I'm tempted to write this down on a post-it note in order to remind myself to stop getting so tilted and just enjoy the games I play.
As one of those players it helps to play everything. Personally I've played Marvel 2, Melee, Skullgirls, Vampire Savior/Darkstalkers 3, KI, SF4, I'm currently learning Third Strike and I like 7-8 different characters. You need to play the games you love because you love them but be detached enough to where when Magneto snaps you and infinites your assist you just focus on what their mixup is on incoming rather than how busted any particular character is, plus when Marvel gets annoying you can just play Third Strike and when Third Strike gets annoying cause people prediction parry you all the time then you switch to SF4 or KI or TFH or any of the 1000+ other fighting games so it keeps things fresh while still teaching fundamentals like spacing and everything else
This is basically me . Playing SFV, like 5 diffrent games on FIghtcade, GG Plus R, and even League of legends . Of course I dont have the time to get good at all of them, but I still have fun
@@wudly9195 and that's what really matters. A thing to remember with everything is some people are gonna be lab monsters and understand every frame of every interaction and then you have the people who play as a hobby. th-cam.com/video/pyzHjqGZnps/w-d-xo.html
My goal in Xrd is just to get my BNB into a super. If I can do that once I'm happy, even if I dont win. People forget, but that Naruto episode where Rock Lee drops the weights and goes HAM? He doesn't win. He loses steam and gets beat. But he put up a hell of a fight and everyone thinks of it as HIS fight cause of it.
This is such a stark contrast to how FG were played way back. You picked up a game with your friends, you played it in your own style, then you get your mind blown when some guy from another city/state comes by and plays in a unique way your crew hadn't thought of. The information age is nice for picking up on things quickly. But if I wanted to play something like Guilty Gear and approach it by learning how to do absolutely everything there is to do before actually playing people, I'd probably get burnt out before I ever got on ranked.
Is the FGC just overwhelmed with 18 year olds or people who don't remember what it used to be like? Who hasn't sat down at the SNES before tutorials or online guide videos existed and button mashed on your buddies on OG Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter 2? If you'd told people that they had to learn every single move, trick, and bit of tech before they played with you you'd be laughed out of the house. What's more is that in some ways that stuff was more fun: playing fun games with people who suck just as much as you do.
@@theoya I just feel like most of the people who gate-keep like this have almost never had actual casual matches with homies IRL. Like this shit's so anti-social that unless all your friends are squares too, no one's gonna be your friend.
Its not the ones going online trying to learn the ins and outs through trial and error, its the ones hell ben t on not learning, the ones riding online delay and poorly optimzed system mechanics for said online that are the annoying ones. Its a microcosm ofa much broader andmuch more serious issue: the "my way or no way" selfish mentality that leads to things like "I dont need to wear a mask" that affect other people.
"Poeple don't wanna see you bypass the gatekeeping they fell for" LMAO far and away from "just pick up a quarter and play" Some of these stream monsters on Twitch sound like they came outta the womb with a fightstick and a head the size of Gordou's normals. They really do seem like they forget what it's like to just play a game for the first time.
Furthermore loads of stream monsters aren’t even that great at their own game lol, quite a lot of them are literally just stream monsters who for some reason gatekeep and I don’t understand why.
@@gothamcitygoon2491 yeah it's funny. Act like the cream of the crop because they're ranked high online then drown in pools whenever they enter a tournament lol
Blues Exactly lol, most of them are literally just average players who for some reason think they’re gods gift to the scene when in reality they beat scrubs and other mid level players at best. Same people probably think their position on the leaderboard means something
@@gothamcitygoon2491 They are pathetic and need to make it like they are somewhat superior to new players. They use what little more experience they have to feel better about themselves
@@gothamcitygoon2491 I think it's a weird form of them lashing out for staying mediocre at the game despite pouring hundreds of hours into absorbing info over it (but they typically can't play by feel for shit). Gate-keeping new players is not only a way of feigning superiority over them, but it's also protective. If they make sure new players only learn the way THEY did, then if the new guy improves, they can take credit. However if the new guy does well without caring about any of that, then it might cause the gate-keeping to self-reflect.
This is the embodiment of why the infamous "characters as functions" comment backfired so badly. A lot of, if not most people play games like this because something cool about it attracted them to it, not because the advanced mechanics did. If its the other way around for some others that's fine, but expecting that of everyone is just the sign of a gatekeeping, self aggrandizing blowhard. And there's a LOT of those, in all games. Look at any game with advanced tech, any team based FPS, MOBA, and fuck speaking of chess...remember when Critikal started out playing Chess on twitch, even he got one of those old ass gate keeper chess "masters" putting him and really anyone coming into chess via Twitch at the time down for a lot of the same reasons, even coming down to questioning their lack of Chess etiquette and whether they truly appreciate the game or whatever. Complete ivory tower nonsense that was rightfully viciously mocked, but this just shows that crap's been around probably since ancient times and it's always something worth mocking. Everyone starts somewhere.
Oh, man, that guy who ranted about xqc and critikal... what a bunch of nonsense. I don't just say that in a general sense, it's even more nonsense because it's about chess. I am "old" enough to be in a generation that played chess when they were bored and it was just something that you'd play in front of your building or on a beach or whatever. Like yahtzee or something. I played casual chess with gang members during a boring summer, ffs. It was so jarring to me to see any kind of gate keeping, ivory tower bullshit applied to chess of all things. One of the most readily available and broadly present board games ever created.
I agree people generally play what looks cool to them, but I'd put forward BFTG, at least for me, as the ultimate characters as functions game. I know literally nothing about power rangers, I just basically watched some videos and was like "dang these characters look fun" and that was about it. It CAN be true, but it's absolutely not true in iconic fighters like marvel and stuff where the characters are half the point imo
You don't k ow what you're e even talking about. Getting a feel for the character IS knowing their functions. Especially if you play other fighting games, you're going to look for similar gameplay styles when transitioning.
I agree about offline play. You play the game however you want, with whomever you want, and if you win - if it works - then more power to you. If they lose, don't flame them for using a low tier character. Also, mocking someone for not spending 100's hours learning every optimal setup in this instance is comical. But online is a different story when players enter a competitive mode (ranked) simply wishing to ride the inherent delay to victory with an otherwise mediocre character. It isn't fair to those who have spent the time and effort learning nuances that would work 10 times out of 10 offline (the intended experience). I'm in now way advocating that players be removed from such modes, I am an advocate of the fact "it's just a game." But there is a gray area hat these sorts of players do not even care to acknowledge. They do not care that they are just jumping on, mashing and winning because your oki has only 2 frames of error. I think attempting to reason with these people about their mentality is perfectly fine, obviously stopping just short of harassing them.
I feel like some of you are getting a little away from the topic. Neither I nor the video are talking about NOT learning advanced tech, not considering top tier or metas or learning what it takes to win or be competitive or a characters functions or any of that *down the line*; we're talking about experienced players essentially bullying new players for not immediately knowing everything right off the bat or just wanting to try something or a character simply because they find it cool. Gatekeeping. That's it.. It has nothing to do with whether or not to pick a top tier or whatever odd direction that went.
The equivalent of this is being forced to learn all the different strokes before being allowed in the water to swim. Will you need them to compete in professional events? Yes, but a newbie can be just fine and have lots of fun only knowing how to doggy paddle.
I believe it to be a vocal minority. Personally I'm happy you show your process and try many games. I think most people aren't upset. This was an interesting video/ discussion btw.
He has taught me stuff about games I already play because of how thorough/experienced he is. I may not learn the same way but I can really appreciate his strategy.
For the average online player, yeah it's a minority. For the subset of players going to forumns/subreddits and watching youtube/streams there's definitely an obsession with the lab room to the point that new players do feel like they must master the top combos in the game before entering online matches.
Sajam, I've been watching your videos for a few months now. I come from a Smash background but was always intimidated by 2D fighters. I just started playing 2D fighters this summer and these types of talks have really helped me get better. Or at least, become less afraid of getting bodied. I used to be afraid of going online, but I know now that losing is all part of the learning process and you can still have fun with the game even if you're not winning. I appreciate the great content. thanks
Getting bodied is all apart of learning. If you don't get bodied, how do you know what you are doing wrong or are weak in? We were all beginners once. Power to you man! ✌✌✌
I came from smash as well! Keep it up bud and remember the infamous "Don't get hit" "Never give up"! Lemme know if you ever want to play I'm always up for learning!
I love the FGC but it has a huge lack of respect for itself, the games we play, and just competitive spirit overall. I don't mean the top players, but the overall feel. There's a difference between trash talk to amp up the competition and the toxic whining and hating that the FGC is full of. I hope the FGC grows to be more mature, I think these "watch me learn by losing" videos/streams will help alot with that for players on their way into the scene.
01:38 This. This right here, is huge. I don't understand why but far too many people are obsessed with winning online in fighting games. And if they're not winning, then they're not having a good time. Its like people have forgotten how to have fun and enjoy a game for what it is. And I'm not talking about putting up with getting curb-stomped by players far better than you. Just trying stuff out and seeing if the basic idea of the game or any of its characters are enjoyable.
Winning = fun for some people. The point of fighting games is to compete and therefore there are winners and losers. Sure, you can have fun, but don't discount the people who put time, effort and money into getting good at something, *anything*, that promotes a "you vs. them" idea. Dedicated people in the FGC end up moving past the simple joy of just "trying stuff out" just for the sake of doing so if their goal is to improve overall. Sure, they'll jump into Practice mode to mess with shit just to get things down (both Max and Sajam have made a point of showing that aspect of learning in particular,) but that doesn't mean they're not also having a good time like more casual players would. It all depends on the goal. "Fun" isn't everything, and often times isn't even all it's cracked up to be when you find it.
@Digishade Learning and losing are also part of the fun in fighting games. Look at pros like Daigo, Smug, J.Wong, or Infiltration. All of them have fun when they learn a new tech or when they lost in the process of learning new characters / tech. If winning is the only think you see as fun in fighting games then you’re gonna go nuts and give up when you got losing streaks.
I think it's a bit of the perception of skill gaps If someone gets smacked online with some super strong complex combo that kills you in 2 touches, some people think that "damn i can't do that how am i supposed to hold my own" and the perception that someone can't reach that stage of competency is what scares people It isn't inherently losing, its feeling like you can't win even if you tried I don't think it's the correct way to see things, but i understand why they think that way
I feel like there's a bit of discussion to be made about how games can create that illusion of competency to push players not to be scared to lose online
I'm not sure if this is just because it's you or I got lucky when I started playing SFV. I streamed randomly from my PS4, a bit more often now, and someone who knew the game came into my stream and started coaching me about my character and what to do against people/characters I'm fighting and was patient. It was incredibly helpful and encouraging. Much later, I joined the New Challenger Discord and saw he was a coach on there. Thanks for your help, Sestze!
I do that alot too in tekken when i see people doing dumb stuff all the time or atleast try it but some people get salty because i punish them for their mistakes lol
i'm old and come from the arcades, in the arcade when a new game dropped you'd get a "hey one sec I'm new" and you could really quickly try and figure out what motions your special moves had. then you fought people, no training mode, not combo videos, you just figured it out... I've noticed people who play fighting games now tend to be really good at the system of the game, the mechanics of that specific game, things like that. But they suck at things like footsies, neutral play, etc. all the shit you learn fighting actual humans. when i play a new game i do it the old way, just figure out what my moves are and jump online and see how it works against people, and lose a lot. i dunno, i think it's more fun that way. also when you learn how to play your guy without a lot of outside input, the way you play him (or her) will end up being unique and people won't know how to react to a lot of things you do because it's not like everyone else. just my 2 cents.
He’s so spot-on in terms of how we all start out. I remember learning Xrd, I went through the tutorial, did some of Elphelt’s trials, and went online armed with three things: medium slash -> bridal express, always have pineberry out, and abuse shotgun in the corner. Wasn’t till after a good two weeks of getting beat down in almost every match I played that I even bothered to properly learn how to actually apply JD’ing, blitz shielding, RC conversions and setups, optimal counter-hit combos, dead-angles, RISC management, and Instant Kill setups. Could you imagine telling someone they had to spend 20+ hours labbing the applications for all that shit before they were allowed to play? Lunacy.
I think for a lot of smaller games, fans are very protective of them and freak out at the idea of a streamer not presenting every cool detail and mechanic in the very best light. I’ve personally never been won over by people showcasing every single detail about about the combo system or whatever, I’d just rather see people having fun or doing crazy broken shit. Once people start playing they’ll learn about the in depth stuff later
I go online and learn online too. It's great. THe hilarious thing is this is the ORIGINAL way we learned fighting games - by going to the arcade and learning via competition.
From your FEXL stream, I got the impression that you were having fun playing, but the chat was trying their best to piss you off. Please keep doing these videos, they're helpful for new FG players or those looking for new fighting games to play. I'd watch you on Twitch, but your chat is so.... negative.
Twitch chat is always shit. In Magic and MOBAs they always tell you to play bad then say you punted cause you didn't listen to them even though you won and their stupid shit advice would've got you wrecked. In FGs they're just outright stupid and when not saying stupid shit they're just trying to stir drama.
This vid is filled to the brim with tough fgc truths. It's crazy how self-defeating large parts of the FGC are, especially online. Wanting the whole world to play their games and recognize the fun to be had, only to pretend you have to be just shy of a black belt to even enter the dojo (and yes the dojo is online, not the lab lol). It has actually burnt me out a bit from even enjoying FGs during the 2020 quarantine. I always had a blast going to actual events and playing pools, playing casuals, and messing with older fighters. In person in locals or events, you don't often hear all of this elitism nonsense. You just play casuals and accept that some people are better or worse. A lot of the discord warriors forget why we even play videogames in the first place.
Having fun is a top priority. I just started playing Skullgirls and what i did was played a bit of tutorial and trials then jump to online match, which i got bodied lol. But i had fun and understand more about the characters. New players who just start playing the game don’t need to dwell for hours in training mode or learn about frame data.
Regarding the pearl-clutching mob when you don't learn everything before playing, I think this behavior isn't strange if observed from a certain angle. I think there's a significant distinction between being an active participant and being a "helpless, but knowledgeable observer". In other words, I see it as something similar to, say, watching a horror movie. If the audience knows something and the character on the screen doesn't, that creates tension and desire to inform the character about it. In fact, Hitchcock did this a lot. So, people would scream from their seats "there's a bomb there!" and "don't go into the shed!". So, what happens there is, I guess, people are watching you play, they know everything about the game and they can't intervene and that creates frustration, as their urge to hop in and intervene and help can't be fulfilled. So, they go like "Noooo, Sajam, you don't block there askdfjkasdjf". It's not a rational response, it's just a helpless scream:) You mentioned chess. You should watch someone new playing chess on Twitch and what happens when they don't see something or don't have the understanding or knowledge about some situation, but the chat does. It's ten times more intense than what you see when you're playing fexl:) There's also something to be said about niche games and their communities. They are probably pretty nervous about their game being "perceived in a proper way". So, if you miss something or have an incorrect conclusion or something, they'd think that you irresponsibly did a "disservice" to the game, as someone with a tangible following. It's like Gordon Ramsay visiting a restaurant, in a way. I had an experience similar to this. Some Overwatch guy played Quake and he was playing against complete newbies. Someone in the chat asked him about his impressions of the game and he said "this game's easy". It actually made me pissed and I felt the urge to rant at him for seven hours how he wouldn't be able to move properly in Quake after 200 hours. Which I didn't do, but I'd assume some people have less self-control, that's all:)
I was thinking these exact two points, its like watching someone new to video games play mario and miss jumps because they don’t know you can run but you don’t have any way to tell them. And all the fervent players of these games Sajam has been learning are seeing him learn and thinking that their game is being misrepresented somehow and “now we’ll never get the growth we deserve” or something like that, and that combined with people who have little self control behind a keyboard creates this whole shitstorm of gatekeeping
Bro, I appreciate the in depth analysis, but this activity has had a name for a long time. It's called backseating and it exists in all forms of competition.
No one is gonna expend more time learning the game they want to play instead of playing it, the mastery of the mechanics comes after they already play it and decided they like it enough to get better at it.
Rewatching this video after picking up a lot of games has given me a new perspective on it. I think a lot of it is the fear of watching somebody try your game only to drop it before they even fully understand it, nothing hurts more than seeing somebody play a game you really love and then say it sucks before they even really played it.
I've been loving your video on learning new fighting games, I've been trying to become a better player and watching your learning process has been helping me. Please keep making those videos.
It's the exact same vibe I get from visiting a friend's city for the weekend, they get real passionate and try to distill everything there is to do into one day as opposed to just letting me see the place and figure stuff out. These guys are being stupid, but I genuinely believe it comes from a good place.
What Sajam said about knowing very little about the game, and still enjoying it. I am new to fighting games in general, and I picked Skullgirls to be the game to learn, a week ago, I played against this one guy I found on discord, and it was a whooping of my ass I never thought I would get, 30-0, we played 30 matches I a row, the guy used the entire cast and, I was more mesmerized about the ways you can play this game, and learning how to sometimes counter some things the guy throw at me, than being in the fucking training mode for hours, that I've been doing for a long time, just shy of playing online and ppl being mad at me. And at the end of the day, the guy only became kinda mad when my brain was tired and I wasn't blocking anything and mashing everything in my way, and I said, "yeah I agree, I need to be more defensive". That was my favorite experience about fighting games so far, besides seeing fighting game footage.
the funniest part to me was my brain went. The man just said he didn't know what his charcters moves where that's like saying you don't know that the knight can hop over pieces. Like sure you can play like that, but 99% of people would instantly start telling you how your pieces move
It's hilarious that the same people who were spamming like this in every other game, the *same people* who turned around to call the people around them goombas to deflect that they themselves were the goombas, were the SAME PEOPLE having so much fun trashing Fantasy Strike *because* it is simple and super accessible to the point literally everyone in chat could hop in online to play without spending any time in training (or even watching the character guides which specify exactly how character's play and what makes them viable). "Heavy punch go brr" was the thesis of the Sajam's match against Squibbles, Graves vs Jaina (I think that was that character's name, divekick go brr), and chat was like "bruh, fuck this game, just play Footies or Divekick," not realizing Squibbles was deadass giving Sajam a matchup-specific problem so he (and everyone else) could learn the matchup and how to deal with it, a problem any new player in any game would never think about during their mandated 200hrs in training mode before hopping online, no matter how simple the game. More importantly, they were teaching each other the game while having *fun* being dumb and new.
Tying the first topic to how tutorials in fighting games should be. I think it would help if developers understood how people usually learn their games. I did the same you mentioned with MK11... Learned just a few things, jumped to online and went back to practice to find solutions. What I liked about MK11's tutorial was that it was super organized, and whenever I needed to know about something, I could easily find. Got blown up by someone's okizeme? Quickly found about how to get up because the tutorial was super organized, didn't have to go through the whole thing or deal with the game telling me lame jokes to make it "fun" to learn.
damn true. I posted my tekken7 footage stating that I'm playing fighting games for like 2 weeks and all I got was "learn all the combos in this situation, that situation, learn to play on wall, against the wall, do this, do that (20minutes video), OH and don't overwhelm yourself" and I'm just sitting there ;_; whaaaaat
I was inspired so I went online and the only person online was a laggy player with like 10 frames of delay who switched character every match, dumpstered me, and as soon as I started figuring it out he landed 2 IKs and disbanded the lobby. This kind of experience affects my perception of "just going online" and forces me to stay stuck inside training mode...
I think it's just playing games in public in general, combined with the general internet culture of elitism. People are just very accustomed to expecting people daring to play games online to be really good, and part of that might be the history of streaming in general, especially with esports and streaming being so tied together historically. If someone's getting views playing a video game, it must be because they're destroying people and/or fighting epic world-class matches or gunning for a WR time. When that turns out not to be the case, it seems like a lot of people feel like the person doesn't deserve the clout. And the streaming and gaming-related platforms themselves make design choices encouraging this mentality. How long was it before people got famous streaming anything other than playing a video game really well on Twitch? How long was it before people started considering Discord as a potential serious professional communication tool? In Let's Play circles there were two competing mentalities: reading/watching them for the games, or reading/watching them for the player. The conundrum was, on one hand I like seeing people play cool games, but on the other hand I like seeing specific people perform a specific style that's entertaining. And I think this focus more on raw entertainment and the merits of the game itself over player skill was because LPs started off as screenshot captions on forums designed for comedy. LP culture was toxic in its own way, but I thought it was worth comparing this predecessor to modern streaming culture. I think there's a lot of potential for people streaming a competitive game where the point isn't to watch them play and beat opponents. I've seen people turn single-player game playthroughs into stuff like extended roleplays with multiple characters. I don't see why people can't be creative with multiplayer games.
These lecture-like vids of yours have really changed how I think about being challenged to learn soemthing, even outside the world of games. For that, I'm very grateful.
Thank you very much Sajam for this video. I just returned to fighting games after being away from them for about 20 years, and after getting informed about rollback (again, thanks to your videos), I realized that I was lost in where to start to re-learn them. With the information that you disclosed in this video, I have an understanding of where to start now, and hopefully I'll be able to catch up to the other players soon enough.
When I watch your picking up a game videos, I’m blown away by how much you’re able to learn and adapt to on the fly by hopping into a match and playing. I think its super cool keep it up!
This is the exact kind of attitude that makes me uncomfortable asking for matches in any discord, likely from my experience in the GG discord. Question: how does one, as a total noob with no locals or friends who play FGs, get matches with anyone to just play the game if discords are filled with asocial vets and high horse intermediates who either advise "do training mode, read the wiki" for everything, or simply beat your ass for a match and disconnect cause they got bored?
How do these people in your chat ever actually learn anything? And are they stuck with hobbies they don't even like because they spent 2 years figuring them out before they even tried them out to see if they were fun?
@@voltekka47 It's an art. What's outside of the grind? Concerts, solo's, recitals, fame, money, therapy, etc... I don't know man weird question but maybe I misunderstood
A big part of having fun in fighting games, for me, is when I'm actually engaging with the game and really playing it. I don't have fun when I feel lost and not know what I'm doing. When I understand the basic rules, know SOME combos, know some specials and how to do them, then I really start to know when a fighter will be fun. I honestly feel stupid when I play a fighter against someone when I don't know what to do, I want to learn and have a grasp at what I'm doing and why. I always say that everyone should start in training mode and find any combo of any length that ends in a knockdown, memorize a handful of useful looking moves/specials, *then* go online. Worry about optimization later, just get the flow of the game down. I can sorta see people being annoyed watching someone not know what they're doing in such a combo-centric game like Skullgirls, but people getting mad at you playing fundamentally with Oleander and not going directly to Fred stuff is stupid.
People who say you have to learn every system and every nuance before playing online are the same people who put work ads where the requirements are "Must be 20 year old college graduates with MBA's and 50+ years of experience."
I love this analogy because the people who have these expectations do it with good intentions. Everyone would want to see a fighting game newbie who has full knowledge of game mechanics before they ever go online, but that's just not how people learn or retain information.
when i first started to learn guilty gear i tried to learn everything in practice mode before going online and got burnt out before even making it to online, just started bbtag and went straight into online after the tutorials and i’ve learnt so much faster
It sounded like youre getting a lot of hate. I just want to tell you there are alot of people who are impressed on how you learn. Im actually really really impressed how fast you pickup Melty Bblood.
It's important to figure out how you learn effectively and stick with it. There are a lot of common aspects to human learning but ultimately every person has their own approach that works for them. I've seen language learners who've been through every nook and cranny of their grammar book before uttering a word. I've also seen learners grow by simply blasting people with garbage English as much as they could. Same with FGs. Learn and play the way you enjoy and growth will follow eventually. I think it's a shame that your chat wasn't able to appreciate observing a person with a clearly different learning style at work. In fact, I'd go as far as to say some people should try different ways of learning. They may discover something about themselves they didn't already know.
The only thing I'm mad about is how you keep dropping all these facts on us. I endlessly appreciate your perspective and I've continued having a blast playing Skullgirls since you played it onstream a while back.
As a Melty player I really liked your Melty streams. It was cool seeing a brand new player who learned and adapted very fast without much direction. I liked seeing what things new players noticed and what was less obvious. Great content!
I know this is an old ass video but "He doesn't even know how the gougi system works" instantly became a part of my vocabulary for anytime I see someone do something bad or lose in a game.
Reminds me of playing kof 97 on the Wii with my bro and just spamming jump heavy kicks and sweeps, thinking it was the only strategy I needed for any character, but I still had a blast.
They're invested in your success. They might not convey it in the most elegant way, but they want you to have (what they think) are the necessary tools to go online and have a good time. You explain your side, your process very well - find questions online and answer them in training mode. Their hypothetical: You're playing "their" game, you're inspecting it from top to bottom and they hope you'll come out liking the game as much as they do. In their eyes, you knowing the GRID system or that Lvl. 3 might increase the chances of you coming away from the game with a positive experience, a glowing endorsement from someone they respect with a not-insignificant following. You're Rollback Gordan Ramsay comin' to town.
When Sajam started talking Chess lingo, I immediately got flashbacks to 10+ years ago when I was new to competitive fighting games, and the lingo sounded like people where talking in a foreign language. I don’t even know if the Chess terms where real, but they sounded about as real as any FGC or TCG I’ve ever heard, so I’ll buy it.
What Sajam says at 10:23 is really the truth, I enjoyed playing just a couple games a day on SF4 not knowing any real combos except jumping roundhouse into crouching roundhouse. It was enough to keep me liking it and now I enjoy FGs a lot.
One major problem I have with your chess analogy: the chess community is worse, they do in fact expect you to have an enormous knowledge pool about common openings, chess terminology, and core chess concepts like pinning, rook lifts, batteries, forcing lines and so on. The chess community has had these gatekeeping problems for over a century. Modern online chess providers (lichess and chess.com) and their proponents are doing their best to dispel these issues and get people to just play and enjoy the game but there is a huge cabal of stodgy grandmasters and other high ranked players who insist that low level players learning and streaming the game before taking lessons and studying openings and engine lines is a disgrace to chess. It's far worse in chess than in the FGC.
I like it when you show your progress honestly. Even if I get frustrated seeing you get bodied at a new game it also reminds me that everyone has to had start from somewhere.
I feel like a big part of this frustration is perhaps the anxiety of the fan of the game the audience might have that the streamer just gets frustrated and throws their hands up, gives up, and calls the game bad over something simple they missed out on. It's something I think we've all seen streamers at some point do. At least with streamers playing games in general, not just fighting games.
Actually doing the thing is how you learn the thing and improve the thing. Just like with programming - the common advice is "you learn programming by coding and building stuff on your own". It's gonna blow and suck but that's the only way you'll really learn it. Fighting games are the same way. Play a bunch, learn from your mistakes, repeat.
I noticed this issue too, another example would be wanting to be a musician, you wanna play cool songs that you listen to so you learn some chords, some scales and you go at it right? but then you get people, mostly trained in a classical way that tell you that you have to learn 50 different concepts in an orderly manner before you even think of trying to learn a song; but that defeats the purpose of becoming a musician, you wanna pick an instrument, play and have fun right? somehow these squares seem pretty unflexible
Huge appreciation for making this video and explaining your thoughts and learning process. I think another reason people tend to be upset when your learning is that your commentary while playing can come off as complaining or "whiney". Of course it's perfectly normal to do this, especially since your coming into something new while everyone your fighting is a novice or higher, but I think people expect you to take the extra time to learn a bit more in training room or take a quick peek at the wiki for the game to avoid those instance. Alot of the questions you asked the chat while playing FEXL were things you could have looked up and engaged the chat with. I understand that you don't like viewing supplementary material while watching the game prior, but is it the same case while learning? Thanks again for making this vid. Big ups to you!
Stop, this is too reasonable for the internet Seriously though, I been watching you for a minute and idk why I wasn't subscribed before, but you super earned it with this discussion. Actually, maybe that's advice you could use. Just throw up a subscribe reminder or record a subscribe blurb to slap on the front or back end of your TH-cam videos. Lord knows you have a lot of viewers that aren't subscribers that could be converted with a little blurb
??? JDCR said “practice? That’s boring”. He stated the way he learned, he went directly in arcades...there were no practice modes. His practice mode was playing in matches and asking the opponents about matchups...it’s not supposed to be ashamed upon for doing that.... I work as a VoIP engineer...I read a lot...studied a lot... but nothing compares to being out in the field. So many factors and what you learn from book learning, is not extremely applicable and what certain factors that you learned in books, are a little bit more advanced and have many variables that you will not learn by reading a book. Seems like combination of book knowledge and experience is needed, but prominently, experience trumps all. Love the video Sajam man.
People get really pissed when you just take a character online? What are they morons you got to just go online you don’t need to know everything about a character you just need to figure out the feel and you’ll learn the rest later
Not to mention it's much more fun to go online and actually play and of course lose sometimes than stay pent up in a static training room for weeks just to probably ensure a win that ultimately doesn't matter all to much.
I find that the people who have a problem with jumping into matches against humans early typically view the end goal of the game as seeing that win screen, no matter what. And the easiest way to farm wins against bad players is to get really good at a flowchart in training mode. Know some high damage combos, know some easy to exploit wakeup etc. Problem is, this strategy doesn't gracefully expand and it'll actually hold you back when you inevitably hit the wall of players that spent time losing and learning the rest of the game. Your goal shouldn't be to win in general, it should be to get better so that you can win against the best. No one cares if you beat or lose to AverageGamer420 in an online match and neither should you.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I mean, I spend notoriously long times in training mode, but I have no problem going 0-100 in matches in order to benefit from them and learn. I don't know why you came to that conclusion, to be honest.
Yes, but do you have a problem with someone ELSE jumping in to a match without doing that? I'm not talkin about people who choose to spend time in training mode beforehand, I'm talking about people who have a problem when someone else doesn't do the same thing (IE what Sajam is talking about)
@@GawainSSB Of course not, I'd do the same if I could (my muscle memory is objectively shitty and that's the main reason I spend more time in training mode). In your first comment you didn't specify that, you just said "people who have a problem with jumping into matches against humans early".
Thing is, it's easy to get caught up in the moment and think of winning as the result of your culminated efforts and good plays over your opponent. When you end up losing, it can feel like you're stuck or you're dumb because you got outsmarted by someone you perceived as dumber than you, based on how they played. It can be hard for one to change this mindset.
Under Night In Birth even tells you you're not ready to play online when you finish though the last tutorial, excuse me? Tutorials in DBFZ actually gatekeeps you from doing them by making you beat somewhat unrelated CPU battles.
@@jeppyjep You can play whenever, you can do it before you even look at the tutorial, it's just that the tutorial has a cheeky: "Ok you beat the tutorial...but you're still gonna get fucked up online, lolz" It doesn't literally stop you from playing online.
Lmao that chess analogy in 2:15 is so great. But I haven't heard about a lot of people learning chess by figuring stuff on the go, especially if you try to play physical. Usually you at least know some rules about movement.
It's not just games, man. I see all this sort of gatekeeping in Linux, vim, programming, etc. And I say to newcomers - you know, just jump right in, they're not as hard to use as they look, and you'll pick things up as you go. Meanwhile, the rest of the community is like, "read all the man pages, make sure your code is fuckin HIGH EFFORT before you dare discuss anything here." It's maddening. I don't blame anyone for getting turned off by the community. They just want people to privately struggle to learn, apparently.
Yeah Fighting Game Discords have some really weird members. I won't say which one specifically butI remember how I was talking about landing this terrible move and how good it feels hitting someone with such a slow move. Everyone jumped at me how un-optimal I was playing and even when I retorted with "Yeah I know" they were just dumbfounded. It was pretty weird how so many people just didn't understand how I was having fun doing scrubby moves.
People that argue like this probably aren't even high ranked online, or clearly haven't spent a lot of time at the lower end of the game. Knowing everything about your character and being a master of the game systems, the matchups you play, or even just character concepts in general is not even close to a reality of the majority of players. These are guys who watch championships and high rank streamers and think that everyone online must be just that good to even start playing, when the reality is that the guys in bronze/silver ranks might not even know how to do an EX combo or even how to use an EX move. SFV is a perfect example of this. There are so many scrambles on the way up to Diamond. The people doing this online don't know frame data. They didnt care about frame data. Some know meaties, but others don't. They don't know good neutral all the time. They just went in and played. The guy who likes Ryu and trying SF5 for the first time found out there's different versions of his Shoryukens in his first online match. Barring entry and demanding you put in 20+ hours of labbing and work just to do your first online matches is pretty silly. Let the guy do the tutorial, do any character stuff, maybe an Arcade game or two, and then go and see what he can do online.
Yeah. People of all skill levels deserve to enjoy their game even if they aren't making full use of game features. Like imagine shittalking people playing basketball because they can't do fadeaways.
My guess is that twitch chat is to chaotic to keep it happy??There is always going to be viewers that want perfection. I mainly watch because of your attitude As someone who mainly plays Rocket league and trains alot, I get the same tendency to never play matches and always practice when trying out fighting games. It is great to hear your attitude about it. I've recently gotten to try Guilty Gear, Dbfz, and fantasy strike because of it . Otherwise,i would have spent like 30+hrs in each game and never gotten to play against other players. i would probably give up on those ppl if I have already said my point during the stream and respond with quick idc if it continues or just ignore them completely
Even Sako went on online first before training his Ferry for GBVS for the same reason, get questions that you need to find answers for later in training mode.
I appreciate the perspective of learning a new fighting game, I often feel like I want to immediately push myself to be about equal skill in my main game when I learn a new game because I see pros immediately hop to the top in new games, not understanding that each game requires it's own learning curve and that frame data might not translate exactly the same as how it does in game a to game b.
I'd love to see you learn a platform fighter, I think it'd be cool because the movement seems so much more crazy and varied compared to other games and I'd like to see how you adapt to that type of neutral and combo system
Also the importance of sour/sweet spots/multiple hitboxes of attacks, which reinforces how important movement and spacing is. It also adds a cool "Do I go for damage and knockback or try to extend the combo" dynamic that other games don't have to that degree.
@@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot if you're talking ab getting that good at spacing and combo string stuff then I don't really think that's 4 streams worth of knowledge that's way more. At most I'm thinking hell maybe learn 1 or 2 kill confirms but most of it will just be neutral and movement
As a FGC teacher I never onced told some one you had to know everything to play online. My priority is always the fun. I try to teach the bare minimum and hope they can find similar level opponents.and go from their.
Mad that you're bypassing the gatekeeping they fell for. That was the perfect way to this up. You run into this kind of crap when learning ANYTHING. Like with a new job. Especially in construction. If you want the new people to do better then you should do two things 1. Shut the fuck up if you're just going to bitch. 2. Teach the new person what you know. If you have the time and energy to complain then you definitely have time to help out. I'm glad you brought this up because it is a widespread problem. People expect things that are obvious to them to be obvious to a new person.
the way you learn on stream is probably more accurate to how a beginner learns anyway. I wouldn't personally even bother trying to learn that way, but that's my preference.
I think it's just the notion that one should know the basics of a game before engaging with other players. Sure you can play chess without knowing what the pieces do but that would be really difficult to understand and play reliably. That's why most people try to understand all of a characters tools as well as the mechanics of the game first. That way when you go in you have a greater knowledge of what your doing, even if you don't know all of the advanced things.
I played Unist for like 20 Hours and went online. I think i didnt win any game until this day but it was fun. You learn so much qhen you play against other people
This is the second time I've heard chess be discussed in the least expected place in the past month. First in an anime podcast and now in a fighting game channel.
have been playing fighting games for a few months... this video just encouraged me to play online and I think you are totally correct especially when playing games with bigger player bases (since your opponents dont know everything as well). The game is so different when playing with real people lol
For most people the entry barrier in chess is something as basic as learning the rules and how pieces move. I think most of your FEXL matches were pretty good, especially as a beginner against Geki. I can't wait to see what you can do after learning what options your Gougi gives you and choosing the best set that fits your playstyle. Also don't rely too heavily on frame data, the game has too many factors to make that knowledge inconsistent. (I hope you continue playing in the future.)
Also you might appreciate looking up content from Geki, FexlTokyo, d44bas, and nann 2and Big One (I think I wrote that right.) FEXL is very old school (which I really like because I like to experience and discover games on my own vs having all the available information. ) So I can totally get your grief when it comes to that lack of information, especially if you're a researcher.
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
The true fighting game experience is spending 30 hours in training mode trying to learn every detail of your chosen main before jumping online and losing to a Ken player who only knows how to do DP and jump HK.
And standing H tatsu into throw or dp because you cant punish it
People don’t understand the give and take. Labbing is necessary, but if you’re spending most of your time in there trying combo starters that end up doing a lot of damage, but are terrible neutral/footsies tools, then you might only have one shot to do your gimmicky combo.
You will beat players doing this, but it can stunt your growth into playing a single player game.
Learn your character’s big whiff punish, but it’s just as important as a poke or anti/air.
@@Killopotamus But what about games that reward the lack of experience AND labbing? I play a game where a single button fucks neutral (DBFZ). It's a game where perfecting neutral still provides you a huge advantage despite that mechanic while allowing you to deal with said mechanic, but simply trying to learn it is near impossible because 95% of players just spam that one move leading to you just looking to punish it. You can't lab neutral, you can't learn it online. What are you supposed to do?
@@PathBeyondTheDark team fighting games with assists are not neutral heavy games naturally. The neutral is short and based on avoidance really. UMVC3 and DBFZ reward great offense/great defense, but the neutral is just short, a few decisions maybe 1 and then boom someone is blocking/pressuring. Its just the nature of those games unfortunately, that's why I don't play them anymore personally. The combo system is amazing but its just not my style in a competitive aspect
@@PathBeyondTheDark You just answered your own question. Stop thinking about Neutral and focus more on punishing or preventing their super dash. If you're playing rock, paper, scissors and you're opponent is beating you with a shovel, you're going to lose 100% of the time. You're trying to play Street Fighter, they're playing DBFZ.
"Pawn go brrr" and "It can go 2? That's broken" is an instant classic
This is by far the best thing. I freaking love it.
I love how this just captures everything about learning fighting game
"We're L-ing it up, brother" is a good one too
I’ve been saying they need to nerf queens for years.
So fucking true too!
The Fighting Game Community often seems to forget what its like to be a new player who is still learning.
Yep
That's a bold opinion, given that the biggest names in the fighting game community most likely learned in arcades, where the only way to learn was by "fighting people better than you and learning through defeat".
It's far more likely that the FGC just want the genre to remain niche to avoid The Casuals (scare-cord), so they indulge in contradictory gatekeeping bullshit to force new players who "can't take the abuse" (read: "don't want to associate with assholes) out.
@safe space Playing other people is the most important aspect of the grind.
@@ZefulStarson Maybe. I suppose my comment oversimplifies the motivation behind the gate keeping. There could be a more defined explanation for the gate keeping than simply forgetting what it was like to be new. I noticed a lot of other comments have more detailed theories about the psychology behind it.
Regardless of the motivation behind the gatekeeping, I think its ridiculous and awful behavior that prevents people from enjoying the game.
@@markalexander6036 Gatekeeping is nonsensical by default in a field like this. What are you going to do if you're below some arbitrary threshold? Lose matches? That's about it. Now, if we're talking about something like being a fireman and not having enough strength to control the hose or carry someone or break through doors or whatever, then we can talk about "gatekeeping", if we can even call it as such.
Gatekeeping in video games is like if you gatekept someone from eating pasta because they don't do the required number of rotations with heir fork or something and you're mad because "that's not how you eat pasta".
Im a king main in both Tekken and chess
Also in King of Fighters
King main in chess? I hope you play 1. e4 2. Ke2 as white then😂
@@Nijwol707true Why the fuck is the game called King of Fighters if King isn't the main character
@@user-un-known bongcloud hype
I thought you meant you just get mad when you play chess and you suplex people, but then I realized its because one of the chess pieces is King
"Some of the happiest players I know are people who know so little about the games they play. They play like 6 games and say, dude these games are tight, I love playing these games. They don't care if they win or lose."
I need to try and recapture this feeling. I'm tempted to write this down on a post-it note in order to remind myself to stop getting so tilted and just enjoy the games I play.
As one of those players it helps to play everything. Personally I've played Marvel 2, Melee, Skullgirls, Vampire Savior/Darkstalkers 3, KI, SF4, I'm currently learning Third Strike and I like 7-8 different characters. You need to play the games you love because you love them but be detached enough to where when Magneto snaps you and infinites your assist you just focus on what their mixup is on incoming rather than how busted any particular character is, plus when Marvel gets annoying you can just play Third Strike and when Third Strike gets annoying cause people prediction parry you all the time then you switch to SF4 or KI or TFH or any of the 1000+ other fighting games so it keeps things fresh while still teaching fundamentals like spacing and everything else
This is basically me . Playing SFV, like 5 diffrent games on FIghtcade, GG Plus R, and even League of legends . Of course I dont have the time to get good at all of them, but I still have fun
@@wudly9195 and that's what really matters. A thing to remember with everything is some people are gonna be lab monsters and understand every frame of every interaction and then you have the people who play as a hobby. th-cam.com/video/pyzHjqGZnps/w-d-xo.html
My goal in Xrd is just to get my BNB into a super. If I can do that once I'm happy, even if I dont win.
People forget, but that Naruto episode where Rock Lee drops the weights and goes HAM? He doesn't win. He loses steam and gets beat. But he put up a hell of a fight and everyone thinks of it as HIS fight cause of it.
@@JTown465 the best fight in Naruto imo
This is such a stark contrast to how FG were played way back. You picked up a game with your friends, you played it in your own style, then you get your mind blown when some guy from another city/state comes by and plays in a unique way your crew hadn't thought of. The information age is nice for picking up on things quickly. But if I wanted to play something like Guilty Gear and approach it by learning how to do absolutely everything there is to do before actually playing people, I'd probably get burnt out before I ever got on ranked.
Is the FGC just overwhelmed with 18 year olds or people who don't remember what it used to be like? Who hasn't sat down at the SNES before tutorials or online guide videos existed and button mashed on your buddies on OG Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter 2? If you'd told people that they had to learn every single move, trick, and bit of tech before they played with you you'd be laughed out of the house. What's more is that in some ways that stuff was more fun: playing fun games with people who suck just as much as you do.
@@theoya I just feel like most of the people who gate-keep like this have almost never had actual casual matches with homies IRL.
Like this shit's so anti-social that unless all your friends are squares too, no one's gonna be your friend.
Not to mention you just learn faster this way. No one is going to remember every piece of tech and frame data without ever playing a real match lol.
Its not the ones going online trying to learn the ins and outs through trial and error, its the ones hell ben t on not learning, the ones riding online delay and poorly optimzed system mechanics for said online that are the annoying ones. Its a microcosm ofa much broader andmuch more serious issue: the "my way or no way" selfish mentality that leads to things like "I dont need to wear a mask" that affect other people.
No kidding. I was super intimidated by guilty gears million tutorials
"Poeple don't wanna see you bypass the gatekeeping they fell for" LMAO far and away from "just pick up a quarter and play"
Some of these stream monsters on Twitch sound like they came outta the womb with a fightstick and a head the size of Gordou's normals. They really do seem like they forget what it's like to just play a game for the first time.
Furthermore loads of stream monsters aren’t even that great at their own game lol, quite a lot of them are literally just stream monsters who for some reason gatekeep and I don’t understand why.
@@gothamcitygoon2491 yeah it's funny. Act like the cream of the crop because they're ranked high online then drown in pools whenever they enter a tournament lol
Blues Exactly lol, most of them are literally just average players who for some reason think they’re gods gift to the scene when in reality they beat scrubs and other mid level players at best. Same people probably think their position on the leaderboard means something
@@gothamcitygoon2491 They are pathetic and need to make it like they are somewhat superior to new players. They use what little more experience they have to feel better about themselves
@@gothamcitygoon2491 I think it's a weird form of them lashing out for staying mediocre at the game despite pouring hundreds of hours into absorbing info over it (but they typically can't play by feel for shit).
Gate-keeping new players is not only a way of feigning superiority over them, but it's also protective. If they make sure new players only learn the way THEY did, then if the new guy improves, they can take credit. However if the new guy does well without caring about any of that, then it might cause the gate-keeping to self-reflect.
This is the embodiment of why the infamous "characters as functions" comment backfired so badly. A lot of, if not most people play games like this because something cool about it attracted them to it, not because the advanced mechanics did. If its the other way around for some others that's fine, but expecting that of everyone is just the sign of a gatekeeping, self aggrandizing blowhard.
And there's a LOT of those, in all games. Look at any game with advanced tech, any team based FPS, MOBA, and fuck speaking of chess...remember when Critikal started out playing Chess on twitch, even he got one of those old ass gate keeper chess "masters" putting him and really anyone coming into chess via Twitch at the time down for a lot of the same reasons, even coming down to questioning their lack of Chess etiquette and whether they truly appreciate the game or whatever. Complete ivory tower nonsense that was rightfully viciously mocked, but this just shows that crap's been around probably since ancient times and it's always something worth mocking. Everyone starts somewhere.
Oh, man, that guy who ranted about xqc and critikal... what a bunch of nonsense. I don't just say that in a general sense, it's even more nonsense because it's about chess. I am "old" enough to be in a generation that played chess when they were bored and it was just something that you'd play in front of your building or on a beach or whatever. Like yahtzee or something. I played casual chess with gang members during a boring summer, ffs. It was so jarring to me to see any kind of gate keeping, ivory tower bullshit applied to chess of all things. One of the most readily available and broadly present board games ever created.
I agree people generally play what looks cool to them, but I'd put forward BFTG, at least for me, as the ultimate characters as functions game.
I know literally nothing about power rangers, I just basically watched some videos and was like "dang these characters look fun" and that was about it.
It CAN be true, but it's absolutely not true in iconic fighters like marvel and stuff where the characters are half the point imo
You don't k ow what you're e even talking about. Getting a feel for the character IS knowing their functions. Especially if you play other fighting games, you're going to look for similar gameplay styles when transitioning.
I agree about offline play. You play the game however you want, with whomever you want, and if you win - if it works - then more power to you. If they lose, don't flame them for using a low tier character. Also, mocking someone for not spending 100's hours learning every optimal setup in this instance is comical.
But online is a different story when players enter a competitive mode (ranked) simply wishing to ride the inherent delay to victory with an otherwise mediocre character. It isn't fair to those who have spent the time and effort learning nuances that would work 10 times out of 10 offline (the intended experience). I'm in now way advocating that players be removed from such modes, I am an advocate of the fact "it's just a game." But there is a gray area hat these sorts of players do not even care to acknowledge. They do not care that they are just jumping on, mashing and winning because your oki has only 2 frames of error. I think attempting to reason with these people about their mentality is perfectly fine, obviously stopping just short of harassing them.
I feel like some of you are getting a little away from the topic.
Neither I nor the video are talking about NOT learning advanced tech, not considering top tier or metas or learning what it takes to win or be competitive or a characters functions or any of that *down the line*; we're talking about experienced players essentially bullying new players for not immediately knowing everything right off the bat or just wanting to try something or a character simply because they find it cool. Gatekeeping. That's it..
It has nothing to do with whether or not to pick a top tier or whatever odd direction that went.
The equivalent of this is being forced to learn all the different strokes before being allowed in the water to swim. Will you need them to compete in professional events? Yes, but a newbie can be just fine and have lots of fun only knowing how to doggy paddle.
I'm waiting for the "Sajam Learns Mobile Suit Gundam Extreme Versus: Maxiboost ON" videos.
SAJAM PLEASE!
WTF is that title man?
@@Celestialbeing21
"Under Night In-Birth Exe:Late[cl-r]"
"Guilty Gear XX: Accent Core Plus R"
I think it's a tradition at this point, man.
Sajam playing Kampfer would be a sight to see
@@hemogoblin3076 people finna get mad if Sajam tries to play hildolfr or reborns without stance cancels
Still have my online permit. I need a few more hours of fuzzy block experience before I get my license.
Lmao
I believe it to be a vocal minority. Personally I'm happy you show your process and try many games. I think most people aren't upset.
This was an interesting video/ discussion btw.
not really that minor. i see it all the time and not just his chat.
He has taught me stuff about games I already play because of how thorough/experienced he is. I may not learn the same way but I can really appreciate his strategy.
same here
For the average online player, yeah it's a minority. For the subset of players going to forumns/subreddits and watching youtube/streams there's definitely an obsession with the lab room to the point that new players do feel like they must master the top combos in the game before entering online matches.
“Pawn go Brrrr” 😂😂
People are just projecting their own fears and insecurities onto you
Sajam, I've been watching your videos for a few months now. I come from a Smash background but was always intimidated by 2D fighters. I just started playing 2D fighters this summer and these types of talks have really helped me get better. Or at least, become less afraid of getting bodied. I used to be afraid of going online, but I know now that losing is all part of the learning process and you can still have fun with the game even if you're not winning. I appreciate the great content. thanks
Getting bodied is all apart of learning. If you don't get bodied, how do you know what you are doing wrong or are weak in?
We were all beginners once. Power to you man! ✌✌✌
Love to see it
power to ya chief, love to see it
Learning and losing are part of the fun in fighting games. So don’t afraid of getting bodied.
I came from smash as well! Keep it up bud and remember the infamous "Don't get hit" "Never give up"! Lemme know if you ever want to play I'm always up for learning!
I love the FGC but it has a huge lack of respect for itself, the games we play, and just competitive spirit overall. I don't mean the top players, but the overall feel. There's a difference between trash talk to amp up the competition and the toxic whining and hating that the FGC is full of. I hope the FGC grows to be more mature, I think these "watch me learn by losing" videos/streams will help alot with that for players on their way into the scene.
Yup as some of their members put it, a degenerate bunch. Hoping for improvements.
Y’all need to just let this man play a game
Why do these people even watch him when they complain?
Can't have an effect on those dumbasses, sadly. Best to shut them out.
01:38
This. This right here, is huge. I don't understand why but far too many people are obsessed with winning online in fighting games. And if they're not winning, then they're not having a good time.
Its like people have forgotten how to have fun and enjoy a game for what it is. And I'm not talking about putting up with getting curb-stomped by players far better than you. Just trying stuff out and seeing if the basic idea of the game or any of its characters are enjoyable.
Winning = fun for some people. The point of fighting games is to compete and therefore there are winners and losers. Sure, you can have fun, but don't discount the people who put time, effort and money into getting good at something, *anything*, that promotes a "you vs. them" idea.
Dedicated people in the FGC end up moving past the simple joy of just "trying stuff out" just for the sake of doing so if their goal is to improve overall. Sure, they'll jump into Practice mode to mess with shit just to get things down (both Max and Sajam have made a point of showing that aspect of learning in particular,) but that doesn't mean they're not also having a good time like more casual players would.
It all depends on the goal. "Fun" isn't everything, and often times isn't even all it's cracked up to be when you find it.
@@_Digishade_ you must be fun at parties
@Digishade Learning and losing are also part of the fun in fighting games. Look at pros like Daigo, Smug, J.Wong, or Infiltration. All of them have fun when they learn a new tech or when they lost in the process of learning new characters / tech. If winning is the only think you see as fun in fighting games then you’re gonna go nuts and give up when you got losing streaks.
I think it's a bit of the perception of skill gaps
If someone gets smacked online with some super strong complex combo that kills you in 2 touches, some people think that "damn i can't do that how am i supposed to hold my own" and the perception that someone can't reach that stage of competency is what scares people
It isn't inherently losing, its feeling like you can't win even if you tried
I don't think it's the correct way to see things, but i understand why they think that way
I feel like there's a bit of discussion to be made about how games can create that illusion of competency to push players not to be scared to lose online
I'm not sure if this is just because it's you or I got lucky when I started playing SFV. I streamed randomly from my PS4, a bit more often now, and someone who knew the game came into my stream and started coaching me about my character and what to do against people/characters I'm fighting and was patient. It was incredibly helpful and encouraging. Much later, I joined the New Challenger Discord and saw he was a coach on there. Thanks for your help, Sestze!
This is the most wholesome FGC comment I've read in a while.
I do that alot too in tekken when i see people doing dumb stuff all the time or atleast try it but some people get salty because i punish them for their mistakes lol
i'm old and come from the arcades, in the arcade when a new game dropped you'd get a "hey one sec I'm new" and you could really quickly try and figure out what motions your special moves had. then you fought people, no training mode, not combo videos, you just figured it out... I've noticed people who play fighting games now tend to be really good at the system of the game, the mechanics of that specific game, things like that. But they suck at things like footsies, neutral play, etc. all the shit you learn fighting actual humans. when i play a new game i do it the old way, just figure out what my moves are and jump online and see how it works against people, and lose a lot. i dunno, i think it's more fun that way. also when you learn how to play your guy without a lot of outside input, the way you play him (or her) will end up being unique and people won't know how to react to a lot of things you do because it's not like everyone else. just my 2 cents.
He’s so spot-on in terms of how we all start out. I remember learning Xrd, I went through the tutorial, did some of Elphelt’s trials, and went online armed with three things: medium slash -> bridal express, always have pineberry out, and abuse shotgun in the corner. Wasn’t till after a good two weeks of getting beat down in almost every match I played that I even bothered to properly learn how to actually apply JD’ing, blitz shielding, RC conversions and setups, optimal counter-hit combos, dead-angles, RISC management, and Instant Kill setups.
Could you imagine telling someone they had to spend 20+ hours labbing the applications for all that shit before they were allowed to play? Lunacy.
Eww el***lt player
I think for a lot of smaller games, fans are very protective of them and freak out at the idea of a streamer not presenting every cool detail and mechanic in the very best light. I’ve personally never been won over by people showcasing every single detail about about the combo system or whatever, I’d just rather see people having fun or doing crazy broken shit. Once people start playing they’ll learn about the in depth stuff later
It can be a sad sight. The desperation.
I go online and learn online too. It's great. THe hilarious thing is this is the ORIGINAL way we learned fighting games - by going to the arcade and learning via competition.
This is how I learnt Tekken. I jumped into training, found a few pokes for Law, a launcher, and a short combo, then went to play online.
From your FEXL stream, I got the impression that you were having fun playing, but the chat was trying their best to piss you off.
Please keep doing these videos, they're helpful for new FG players or those looking for new fighting games to play. I'd watch you on Twitch, but your chat is so.... negative.
That's an issue with the Twitch community on top of the FGC. Double dipped in toxicity.
That's the FGC for you. Sad but glad I'm not like them. Cancerous lot they are.
Twitch chat is always shit. In Magic and MOBAs they always tell you to play bad then say you punted cause you didn't listen to them even though you won and their stupid shit advice would've got you wrecked.
In FGs they're just outright stupid and when not saying stupid shit they're just trying to stir drama.
Believe me, from what I’ve seen Sajam’s Twitch chat is nice compared to some other chats
Be nice to newbies!
They keep the games you love alive! :)
This vid is filled to the brim with tough fgc truths. It's crazy how self-defeating large parts of the FGC are, especially online. Wanting the whole world to play their games and recognize the fun to be had, only to pretend you have to be just shy of a black belt to even enter the dojo (and yes the dojo is online, not the lab lol). It has actually burnt me out a bit from even enjoying FGs during the 2020 quarantine. I always had a blast going to actual events and playing pools, playing casuals, and messing with older fighters. In person in locals or events, you don't often hear all of this elitism nonsense. You just play casuals and accept that some people are better or worse. A lot of the discord warriors forget why we even play videogames in the first place.
As I've seen them call themselves, a bunch of degenerates.
Having fun is a top priority. I just started playing Skullgirls and what i did was played a bit of tutorial and trials then jump to online match, which i got bodied lol. But i had fun and understand more about the characters. New players who just start playing the game don’t need to dwell for hours in training mode or learn about frame data.
Regarding the pearl-clutching mob when you don't learn everything before playing, I think this behavior isn't strange if observed from a certain angle. I think there's a significant distinction between being an active participant and being a "helpless, but knowledgeable observer".
In other words, I see it as something similar to, say, watching a horror movie. If the audience knows something and the character on the screen doesn't, that creates tension and desire to inform the character about it. In fact, Hitchcock did this a lot. So, people would scream from their seats "there's a bomb there!" and "don't go into the shed!". So, what happens there is, I guess, people are watching you play, they know everything about the game and they can't intervene and that creates frustration, as their urge to hop in and intervene and help can't be fulfilled. So, they go like "Noooo, Sajam, you don't block there askdfjkasdjf". It's not a rational response, it's just a helpless scream:)
You mentioned chess. You should watch someone new playing chess on Twitch and what happens when they don't see something or don't have the understanding or knowledge about some situation, but the chat does. It's ten times more intense than what you see when you're playing fexl:)
There's also something to be said about niche games and their communities. They are probably pretty nervous about their game being "perceived in a proper way". So, if you miss something or have an incorrect conclusion or something, they'd think that you irresponsibly did a "disservice" to the game, as someone with a tangible following. It's like Gordon Ramsay visiting a restaurant, in a way.
I had an experience similar to this. Some Overwatch guy played Quake and he was playing against complete newbies. Someone in the chat asked him about his impressions of the game and he said "this game's easy". It actually made me pissed and I felt the urge to rant at him for seven hours how he wouldn't be able to move properly in Quake after 200 hours. Which I didn't do, but I'd assume some people have less self-control, that's all:)
You're right on the money with the reference to horror movies, makes that view point very clear 🖒
That's an interesting take 👍
I was thinking these exact two points, its like watching someone new to video games play mario and miss jumps because they don’t know you can run but you don’t have any way to tell them. And all the fervent players of these games Sajam has been learning are seeing him learn and thinking that their game is being misrepresented somehow and “now we’ll never get the growth we deserve” or something like that, and that combined with people who have little self control behind a keyboard creates this whole shitstorm of gatekeeping
Bro, I appreciate the in depth analysis, but this activity has had a name for a long time. It's called backseating and it exists in all forms of competition.
@@budafuka But this is more specific behavior than backseating. In backseating you're telling people what to do, this is more than that.
Noo! You can't get bodied! You have to spened the time in training!
Haha learning by losing goes brrr
Sajam is a credit to the community. I have real respect for him
No one is gonna expend more time learning the game they want to play instead of playing it, the mastery of the mechanics comes after they already play it and decided they like it enough to get better at it.
Rewatching this video after picking up a lot of games has given me a new perspective on it. I think a lot of it is the fear of watching somebody try your game only to drop it before they even fully understand it, nothing hurts more than seeing somebody play a game you really love and then say it sucks before they even really played it.
I've been loving your video on learning new fighting games, I've been trying to become a better player and watching your learning process has been helping me. Please keep making those videos.
It's the exact same vibe I get from visiting a friend's city for the weekend, they get real passionate and try to distill everything there is to do into one day as opposed to just letting me see the place and figure stuff out. These guys are being stupid, but I genuinely believe it comes from a good place.
What Sajam said about knowing very little about the game, and still enjoying it.
I am new to fighting games in general, and I picked Skullgirls to be the game to learn, a week ago, I played against this one guy I found on discord, and it was a whooping of my ass I never thought I would get, 30-0, we played 30 matches I a row, the guy used the entire cast and, I was more mesmerized about the ways you can play this game, and learning how to sometimes counter some things the guy throw at me, than being in the fucking training mode for hours, that I've been doing for a long time, just shy of playing online and ppl being mad at me.
And at the end of the day, the guy only became kinda mad when my brain was tired and I wasn't blocking anything and mashing everything in my way, and I said, "yeah I agree, I need to be more defensive". That was my favorite experience about fighting games so far, besides seeing fighting game footage.
Cool but them getting mad like that raises some red flags.
The best thing about how Sajam described Chess off the top of his head is that every term he used in talking about it is a real thing
the funniest part to me was my brain went. The man just said he didn't know what his charcters moves where that's like saying you don't know that the knight can hop over pieces. Like sure you can play like that, but 99% of people would instantly start telling you how your pieces move
It's hilarious that the same people who were spamming like this in every other game, the *same people* who turned around to call the people around them goombas to deflect that they themselves were the goombas, were the SAME PEOPLE having so much fun trashing Fantasy Strike *because* it is simple and super accessible to the point literally everyone in chat could hop in online to play without spending any time in training (or even watching the character guides which specify exactly how character's play and what makes them viable).
"Heavy punch go brr" was the thesis of the Sajam's match against Squibbles, Graves vs Jaina (I think that was that character's name, divekick go brr), and chat was like "bruh, fuck this game, just play Footies or Divekick," not realizing Squibbles was deadass giving Sajam a matchup-specific problem so he (and everyone else) could learn the matchup and how to deal with it, a problem any new player in any game would never think about during their mandated 200hrs in training mode before hopping online, no matter how simple the game. More importantly, they were teaching each other the game while having *fun* being dumb and new.
Bottom line, Twitch chat is full of idiots, like all parts of life.
Tying the first topic to how tutorials in fighting games should be. I think it would help if developers understood how people usually learn their games.
I did the same you mentioned with MK11... Learned just a few things, jumped to online and went back to practice to find solutions. What I liked about MK11's tutorial was that it was super organized, and whenever I needed to know about something, I could easily find. Got blown up by someone's okizeme? Quickly found about how to get up because the tutorial was super organized, didn't have to go through the whole thing or deal with the game telling me lame jokes to make it "fun" to learn.
Well put!
Tutorials should be more about practical, applied knowledge and less about info dumping.
damn true. I posted my tekken7 footage stating that I'm playing fighting games for like 2 weeks and all I got was "learn all the combos in this situation, that situation, learn to play on wall, against the wall, do this, do that (20minutes video), OH and don't overwhelm yourself" and I'm just sitting there ;_; whaaaaat
I was inspired so I went online and the only person online was a laggy player with like 10 frames of delay who switched character every match, dumpstered me, and as soon as I started figuring it out he landed 2 IKs and disbanded the lobby. This kind of experience affects my perception of "just going online" and forces me to stay stuck inside training mode...
Update found a discord with a bunch of very friendly people who kindly beat me up and helped me learn
@@Aceronian Good news! Yeah, look past the bad eggs or fringe cases. :)
I think it's just playing games in public in general, combined with the general internet culture of elitism. People are just very accustomed to expecting people daring to play games online to be really good, and part of that might be the history of streaming in general, especially with esports and streaming being so tied together historically. If someone's getting views playing a video game, it must be because they're destroying people and/or fighting epic world-class matches or gunning for a WR time. When that turns out not to be the case, it seems like a lot of people feel like the person doesn't deserve the clout. And the streaming and gaming-related platforms themselves make design choices encouraging this mentality. How long was it before people got famous streaming anything other than playing a video game really well on Twitch? How long was it before people started considering Discord as a potential serious professional communication tool?
In Let's Play circles there were two competing mentalities: reading/watching them for the games, or reading/watching them for the player. The conundrum was, on one hand I like seeing people play cool games, but on the other hand I like seeing specific people perform a specific style that's entertaining. And I think this focus more on raw entertainment and the merits of the game itself over player skill was because LPs started off as screenshot captions on forums designed for comedy. LP culture was toxic in its own way, but I thought it was worth comparing this predecessor to modern streaming culture.
I think there's a lot of potential for people streaming a competitive game where the point isn't to watch them play and beat opponents. I've seen people turn single-player game playthroughs into stuff like extended roleplays with multiple characters. I don't see why people can't be creative with multiplayer games.
These lecture-like vids of yours have really changed how I think about being challenged to learn soemthing, even outside the world of games. For that, I'm very grateful.
Thank you very much Sajam for this video. I just returned to fighting games after being away from them for about 20 years, and after getting informed about rollback (again, thanks to your videos), I realized that I was lost in where to start to re-learn them.
With the information that you disclosed in this video, I have an understanding of where to start now, and hopefully I'll be able to catch up to the other players soon enough.
When I watch your picking up a game videos, I’m blown away by how much you’re able to learn and adapt to on the fly by hopping into a match and playing. I think its super cool keep it up!
This is the exact kind of attitude that makes me uncomfortable asking for matches in any discord, likely from my experience in the GG discord.
Question: how does one, as a total noob with no locals or friends who play FGs, get matches with anyone to just play the game if discords are filled with asocial vets and high horse intermediates who either advise "do training mode, read the wiki" for everything, or simply beat your ass for a match and disconnect cause they got bored?
Aw, sounds like you had a rough time. I met my share of derps but at least we got some sets in. Which FGs did you attempt to play through DC?
How do these people in your chat ever actually learn anything? And are they stuck with hobbies they don't even like because they spent 2 years figuring them out before they even tried them out to see if they were fun?
@safe space but what even *is* there outside of "the grind" when it comes to music?
@@voltekka47 It's an art. What's outside of the grind? Concerts, solo's, recitals, fame, money, therapy, etc... I don't know man weird question but maybe I misunderstood
@@creativedegree I just thought it was a weird comparison to make.
@@voltekka47 I do agree with that
A big part of having fun in fighting games, for me, is when I'm actually engaging with the game and really playing it. I don't have fun when I feel lost and not know what I'm doing. When I understand the basic rules, know SOME combos, know some specials and how to do them, then I really start to know when a fighter will be fun.
I honestly feel stupid when I play a fighter against someone when I don't know what to do, I want to learn and have a grasp at what I'm doing and why.
I always say that everyone should start in training mode and find any combo of any length that ends in a knockdown, memorize a handful of useful looking moves/specials, *then* go online. Worry about optimization later, just get the flow of the game down.
I can sorta see people being annoyed watching someone not know what they're doing in such a combo-centric game like Skullgirls, but people getting mad at you playing fundamentally with Oleander and not going directly to Fred stuff is stupid.
I love him commenting on "you can like a thing and still acknowledge it has flaws instead of defending the flaw" cause I see that so much in fanboys
Ikr.
B-b-but my game is perfect! How can there be flaws!???
People who say you have to learn every system and every nuance before playing online are the same people who put work ads where the requirements are "Must be 20 year old college graduates with MBA's and 50+ years of experience."
I love this analogy because the people who have these expectations do it with good intentions. Everyone would want to see a fighting game newbie who has full knowledge of game mechanics before they ever go online, but that's just not how people learn or retain information.
when i first started to learn guilty gear i tried to learn everything in practice mode before going online and got burnt out before even making it to online, just started bbtag and went straight into online after the tutorials and i’ve learnt so much faster
That netcode though.
It sounded like youre getting a lot of hate. I just want to tell you there are alot of people who are impressed on how you learn.
Im actually really really impressed how fast you pickup Melty Bblood.
It's important to figure out how you learn effectively and stick with it. There are a lot of common aspects to human learning but ultimately every person has their own approach that works for them. I've seen language learners who've been through every nook and cranny of their grammar book before uttering a word. I've also seen learners grow by simply blasting people with garbage English as much as they could. Same with FGs. Learn and play the way you enjoy and growth will follow eventually. I think it's a shame that your chat wasn't able to appreciate observing a person with a clearly different learning style at work. In fact, I'd go as far as to say some people should try different ways of learning. They may discover something about themselves they didn't already know.
Nice take!
The only thing I'm mad about is how you keep dropping all these facts on us.
I endlessly appreciate your perspective and I've continued having a blast playing Skullgirls since you played it onstream a while back.
As a Melty player I really liked your Melty streams. It was cool seeing a brand new player who learned and adapted very fast without much direction. I liked seeing what things new players noticed and what was less obvious. Great content!
I know this is an old ass video but "He doesn't even know how the gougi system works" instantly became a part of my vocabulary for anytime I see someone do something bad or lose in a game.
Reminds me of playing kof 97 on the Wii with my bro and just spamming jump heavy kicks and sweeps, thinking it was the only strategy I needed for any character, but I still had a blast.
Trial by fire is a great way to learn a fighting game, if you can't apply basic basic concepts under pressure then you will struggle to progress
They're invested in your success. They might not convey it in the most elegant way, but they want you to have (what they think) are the necessary tools to go online and have a good time. You explain your side, your process very well - find questions online and answer them in training mode. Their hypothetical: You're playing "their" game, you're inspecting it from top to bottom and they hope you'll come out liking the game as much as they do. In their eyes, you knowing the GRID system or that Lvl. 3 might increase the chances of you coming away from the game with a positive experience, a glowing endorsement from someone they respect with a not-insignificant following. You're Rollback Gordan Ramsay comin' to town.
Buncha control freaks.
When Sajam started talking Chess lingo, I immediately got flashbacks to 10+ years ago when I was new to competitive fighting games, and the lingo sounded like people where talking in a foreign language.
I don’t even know if the Chess terms where real, but they sounded about as real as any FGC or TCG I’ve ever heard, so I’ll buy it.
What Sajam says at 10:23 is really the truth, I enjoyed playing just a couple games a day on SF4 not knowing any real combos except jumping roundhouse into crouching roundhouse. It was enough to keep me liking it and now I enjoy FGs a lot.
One major problem I have with your chess analogy: the chess community is worse, they do in fact expect you to have an enormous knowledge pool about common openings, chess terminology, and core chess concepts like pinning, rook lifts, batteries, forcing lines and so on. The chess community has had these gatekeeping problems for over a century.
Modern online chess providers (lichess and chess.com) and their proponents are doing their best to dispel these issues and get people to just play and enjoy the game but there is a huge cabal of stodgy grandmasters and other high ranked players who insist that low level players learning and streaming the game before taking lessons and studying openings and engine lines is a disgrace to chess. It's far worse in chess than in the FGC.
And just like with fighting games there is no point studying anything in chess before building up enough experience through actually playing
I like it when you show your progress honestly. Even if I get frustrated seeing you get bodied at a new game it also reminds me that everyone has to had start from somewhere.
I feel like a big part of this frustration is perhaps the anxiety of the fan of the game the audience might have that the streamer just gets frustrated and throws their hands up, gives up, and calls the game bad over something simple they missed out on.
It's something I think we've all seen streamers at some point do. At least with streamers playing games in general, not just fighting games.
Actually doing the thing is how you learn the thing and improve the thing. Just like with programming - the common advice is "you learn programming by coding and building stuff on your own". It's gonna blow and suck but that's the only way you'll really learn it. Fighting games are the same way. Play a bunch, learn from your mistakes, repeat.
I noticed this issue too, another example would be wanting to be a musician, you wanna play cool songs that you listen to so you learn some chords, some scales and you go at it right? but then you get people, mostly trained in a classical way that tell you that you have to learn 50 different concepts in an orderly manner before you even think of trying to learn a song; but that defeats the purpose of becoming a musician, you wanna pick an instrument, play and have fun right? somehow these squares seem pretty unflexible
Huge appreciation for making this video and explaining your thoughts and learning process. I think another reason people tend to be upset when your learning is that your commentary while playing can come off as complaining or "whiney". Of course it's perfectly normal to do this, especially since your coming into something new while everyone your fighting is a novice or higher, but I think people expect you to take the extra time to learn a bit more in training room or take a quick peek at the wiki for the game to avoid those instance. Alot of the questions you asked the chat while playing FEXL were things you could have looked up and engaged the chat with. I understand that you don't like viewing supplementary material while watching the game prior, but is it the same case while learning? Thanks again for making this vid. Big ups to you!
The most important lesson is fighting games are fun, people take online too seriously just play the game and enjoy
Stop, this is too reasonable for the internet
Seriously though, I been watching you for a minute and idk why I wasn't subscribed before, but you super earned it with this discussion. Actually, maybe that's advice you could use. Just throw up a subscribe reminder or record a subscribe blurb to slap on the front or back end of your TH-cam videos. Lord knows you have a lot of viewers that aren't subscribers that could be converted with a little blurb
1:52-2:30 Honestly, this should be in some kind of “best of Sajam” compilation. Cracked me tf up.
People acting like fighting games before didn't thrust them into arcade as soon as they picked a character
??? JDCR said “practice? That’s boring”. He stated the way he learned, he went directly in arcades...there were no practice modes. His practice mode was playing in matches and asking the opponents about matchups...it’s not supposed to be ashamed upon for doing that....
I work as a VoIP engineer...I read a lot...studied a lot... but nothing compares to being out in the field. So many factors and what you learn from book learning, is not extremely applicable and what certain factors that you learned in books, are a little bit more advanced and have many variables that you will not learn by reading a book. Seems like combination of book knowledge and experience is needed, but prominently, experience trumps all. Love the video Sajam man.
People get really pissed when you just take a character online? What are they morons you got to just go online you don’t need to know everything about a character you just need to figure out the feel and you’ll learn the rest later
Had to come back to this video to remind me not to stress over Skullgirls. I just need to jump online and learn.
Not to mention it's much more fun to go online and actually play and of course lose sometimes than stay pent up in a static training room for weeks just to probably ensure a win that ultimately doesn't matter all to much.
I find that the people who have a problem with jumping into matches against humans early typically view the end goal of the game as seeing that win screen, no matter what. And the easiest way to farm wins against bad players is to get really good at a flowchart in training mode. Know some high damage combos, know some easy to exploit wakeup etc. Problem is, this strategy doesn't gracefully expand and it'll actually hold you back when you inevitably hit the wall of players that spent time losing and learning the rest of the game.
Your goal shouldn't be to win in general, it should be to get better so that you can win against the best. No one cares if you beat or lose to AverageGamer420 in an online match and neither should you.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. I mean, I spend notoriously long times in training mode, but I have no problem going 0-100 in matches in order to benefit from them and learn. I don't know why you came to that conclusion, to be honest.
Yes, but do you have a problem with someone ELSE jumping in to a match without doing that? I'm not talkin about people who choose to spend time in training mode beforehand, I'm talking about people who have a problem when someone else doesn't do the same thing (IE what Sajam is talking about)
@@GawainSSB Of course not, I'd do the same if I could (my muscle memory is objectively shitty and that's the main reason I spend more time in training mode). In your first comment you didn't specify that, you just said "people who have a problem with jumping into matches against humans early".
@@doolioart3314 I can see how that might be confusing. I figured the context of the video would be enough, but I can see it.
Thing is, it's easy to get caught up in the moment and think of winning as the result of your culminated efforts and good plays over your opponent. When you end up losing, it can feel like you're stuck or you're dumb because you got outsmarted by someone you perceived as dumber than you, based on how they played. It can be hard for one to change this mindset.
Under Night In Birth even tells you you're not ready to play online when you finish though the last tutorial, excuse me?
Tutorials in DBFZ actually gatekeeps you from doing them by making you beat somewhat unrelated CPU battles.
Wait seriously? Under Night doesnt let you play online if you ignore the tutorial? Thats suck
@@jeppyjep You can play whenever, you can do it before you even look at the tutorial, it's just that the tutorial has a cheeky: "Ok you beat the tutorial...but you're still gonna get fucked up online, lolz"
It doesn't literally stop you from playing online.
Lmao that chess analogy in 2:15 is so great.
But I haven't heard about a lot of people learning chess by figuring stuff on the go, especially if you try to play physical. Usually you at least know some rules about movement.
It's not just games, man. I see all this sort of gatekeeping in Linux, vim, programming, etc. And I say to newcomers - you know, just jump right in, they're not as hard to use as they look, and you'll pick things up as you go. Meanwhile, the rest of the community is like, "read all the man pages, make sure your code is fuckin HIGH EFFORT before you dare discuss anything here." It's maddening. I don't blame anyone for getting turned off by the community. They just want people to privately struggle to learn, apparently.
The coding community can be quite toxic like the FGC. Stack overflow for example or github. They will always judge you
It's always a rough time.
Yeah Fighting Game Discords have some really weird members. I won't say which one specifically butI remember how I was talking about landing this terrible move and how good it feels hitting someone with such a slow move. Everyone jumped at me how un-optimal I was playing and even when I retorted with "Yeah I know" they were just dumbfounded. It was pretty weird how so many people just didn't understand how I was having fun doing scrubby moves.
People that argue like this probably aren't even high ranked online, or clearly haven't spent a lot of time at the lower end of the game. Knowing everything about your character and being a master of the game systems, the matchups you play, or even just character concepts in general is not even close to a reality of the majority of players. These are guys who watch championships and high rank streamers and think that everyone online must be just that good to even start playing, when the reality is that the guys in bronze/silver ranks might not even know how to do an EX combo or even how to use an EX move.
SFV is a perfect example of this. There are so many scrambles on the way up to Diamond. The people doing this online don't know frame data. They didnt care about frame data. Some know meaties, but others don't. They don't know good neutral all the time. They just went in and played. The guy who likes Ryu and trying SF5 for the first time found out there's different versions of his Shoryukens in his first online match.
Barring entry and demanding you put in 20+ hours of labbing and work just to do your first online matches is pretty silly. Let the guy do the tutorial, do any character stuff, maybe an Arcade game or two, and then go and see what he can do online.
Yeah. People of all skill levels deserve to enjoy their game even if they aren't making full use of game features.
Like imagine shittalking people playing basketball because they can't do fadeaways.
My guess is that twitch chat is to chaotic to keep it happy??There is always going to be viewers that want perfection. I mainly watch because of your attitude
As someone who mainly plays Rocket league and trains alot, I get the same tendency to never play matches and always practice when trying out fighting games. It is great to hear your attitude about it. I've recently gotten to try Guilty Gear, Dbfz, and fantasy strike because of it . Otherwise,i would have spent like 30+hrs in each game and never gotten to play against other players.
i would probably give up on those ppl if I have already said my point during the stream and respond with quick idc if it continues or just ignore them completely
Even Sako went on online first before training his Ferry for GBVS for the same reason, get questions that you need to find answers for later in training mode.
I appreciate the perspective of learning a new fighting game, I often feel like I want to immediately push myself to be about equal skill in my main game when I learn a new game because I see pros immediately hop to the top in new games, not understanding that each game requires it's own learning curve and that frame data might not translate exactly the same as how it does in game a to game b.
I'd love to see you learn a platform fighter, I think it'd be cool because the movement seems so much more crazy and varied compared to other games and I'd like to see how you adapt to that type of neutral and combo system
Also the importance of sour/sweet spots/multiple hitboxes of attacks, which reinforces how important movement and spacing is. It also adds a cool "Do I go for damage and knockback or try to extend the combo" dynamic that other games don't have to that degree.
@@Sir_Robin_of_Camelot if you're talking ab getting that good at spacing and combo string stuff then I don't really think that's 4 streams worth of knowledge that's way more. At most I'm thinking hell maybe learn 1 or 2 kill confirms but most of it will just be neutral and movement
Sajam just jumps into the deep end of the pool to learn to sink or swim, training mode doesn’t prepare you for the chaos of human opponent
The game is against other people though. Like if you don't play against other people you didn't get to play the game.
lol the Skullgirls community was literally described within a minute
As a FGC teacher I never onced told some one you had to know everything to play online. My priority is always the fun. I try to teach the bare minimum and hope they can find similar level opponents.and go from their.
Was that "their" a typo?
Mad that you're bypassing the gatekeeping they fell for.
That was the perfect way to this up.
You run into this kind of crap when learning ANYTHING. Like with a new job. Especially in construction. If you want the new people to do better then you should do two things
1. Shut the fuck up if you're just going to bitch.
2. Teach the new person what you know.
If you have the time and energy to complain then you definitely have time to help out.
I'm glad you brought this up because it is a widespread problem. People expect things that are obvious to them to be obvious to a new person.
the way you learn on stream is probably more accurate to how a beginner learns anyway. I wouldn't personally even bother trying to learn that way, but that's my preference.
I think it's just the notion that one should know the basics of a game before engaging with other players. Sure you can play chess without knowing what the pieces do but that would be really difficult to understand and play reliably. That's why most people try to understand all of a characters tools as well as the mechanics of the game first. That way when you go in you have a greater knowledge of what your doing, even if you don't know all of the advanced things.
I played Unist for like 20 Hours and went online. I think i didnt win any game until this day but it was fun. You learn so much qhen you play against other people
This is the second time I've heard chess be discussed in the least expected place in the past month. First in an anime podcast and now in a fighting game channel.
Lot of high level fighting game players do comparisons with chess
They don't want their game to be esports, but they want to play esports.
They want a bigger playerbase but drive away new players by being control freaks.
Nice Fall Guys Community shirt.
Hey Sajam, give arcana heart 3 a try. It’s fire. Looking forward to seeing you try it!
I'm old so labbing/tutorials are not part of my learning process. It's about getting in there and learning what others are doing and why.
have been playing fighting games for a few months... this video just encouraged me to play online and I think you are totally correct especially when playing games with bigger player bases (since your opponents dont know everything as well). The game is so different when playing with real people lol
For most people the entry barrier in chess is something as basic as learning the rules and how pieces move. I think most of your FEXL matches were pretty good, especially as a beginner against Geki. I can't wait to see what you can do after learning what options your Gougi gives you and choosing the best set that fits your playstyle. Also don't rely too heavily on frame data, the game has too many factors to make that knowledge inconsistent.
(I hope you continue playing in the future.)
Also you might appreciate looking up content from Geki, FexlTokyo, d44bas, and nann 2and Big One (I think I wrote that right.)
FEXL is very old school (which I really like because I like to experience and discover games on my own vs having all the available information. ) So I can totally get your grief when it comes to that lack of information, especially if you're a researcher.
shit like this is why sajam is my favorite fgc content creator