Very thankful for the single dead-end explanation you gave first. I have watched other videos of this exact setup where power and lights are coming into the first box with only a switch at the second box. While other and different wiring explanations seem to "work", they were complicated (by passing line power over through box 1 to box 2 and then using common on SW1 up to the load side. That method seems to not work if adding a Lutron Diva dimming switch at SW1 location like I want to. Your video is VERY clear and easy to follow and solves my problem! Great video!! Thank you!
Amazing. Thank you. I have watched many, many TH-cam videos on this topic and they were all clear as mud. Yours, though, is abundantly clear. Very easy to follow. Yours are some of the very best electrical videos on TH-cam. Again, THANK YOU!!!
I recently did some troubleshooting in a kitchen which was wired this way. Somebody (I’m guessing a homeowner) removed one of the three way switches and put in a single pole switch. They didn’t know where to put the white wire so they put it on the equipment ground screw on the switch. It was an old cloth wire house without proper equipment grounding. So every time someone flipped the other three way switch the yoke and metal box had 120v to neutral. No one ever got shocked because there was no ground nearby to touch. Plus once it was all installed the only non plastic parts were the two painted screws holding the plate on. I did put my probe in the screw slot and tested to a nearby outlet’s neutral and it was 120! The homeowner said it was like that when they moved in a couple years ago. Crazy!
Thank you for posting this . Just came across this when someone on the carpenter crew disconnected the switches during renovation and they ask me to take a look at it. I figured it out and in my mind I thought I had it correct then I came across your channel and it confirmed I was correct on reinstalling the the three way switches. Hey what’s up with the Air Force hat ? 37 years all together for me
It is interesting how they are jumping back and forth between compliant and non-compliant over weird reasons. As long as you don't do a Chicago 3way, you are pretty safe :) And of course, you would normally cross over the wires, so the light is off, with both switches in the off position.
You are obviously well versed on the subject of wiring and of course, your choice of meals, Factor, is also a Grand choice in my household, I have not been disappointed !!.....
I'm viewing from the UK, not an electrician but comfortable with the topic and have changed a few lights and switches, so this is all very interesting to see practices over in the US :) Very clearly diagrammed and explained -- I can see you prepared well! I enjoyed your explanation of the Chicago (yikes) and California three-ways! FWIW, I don't know what the UK "code" ("The Regs", or IET Wiring Regulations) says is legal, but from my experience it seems normal to have the power at the fixture and to make loops to switches and back, similar to this. Standard pendant fittings have a 3-3-2 screw terminal bank tailored for a single switch, though I have seen them wired "creatively" which left me sketching and buzzing through to figure out what was going on when changing a fitting! I hope our Regs have caught up with requiring neutrals at switch boxes, but my place was built in the 70s so no chance 😂 Keep up the good work :)
Ahh a friend from the UK.. I'm a retired electrical engineer and the guy I oriented to take my place was from Greenock Scotland. Great guy but I couldn't understand a word he said. lol. Thanks for dropping by..
For those who believe a neutral is required by code, that is incorrect based on code. But we need to remember that code is the minimum requirement, so jurisdiction having authority can require a neutral at every switch location. Having a neutral at every location is not a code violation. Not having a neutral at any location is a code violation. Depending what code year your state uses will also determine what are violation and not violations. There are States that still only apply the 2008 code, so what does that code year say about it? This reminded me of me installing 2 dead end 3-ways with a 4-way. The line and load go to one outlet switch box. The power ties to one of the 3 wires sending it to a 2nd outlet. The switch leg ties to the other 3 wire going to the 3rd outlet. The white and red wires are used as travelers from each of the 3 wires, but instead of tying them together they are landed on a 4-way switch. Then obviously the neutrals are tied together and grounds.
No actually. The AHJ cannot make up code. The enforce the code but don't make it up. If there is an argument about the interpretation of a code reference the AHJ will have the authority.
This definitely interesting. I will say you definitely want a neutral (and ground) inside each light switch box if you ever want to run smart light switches.
I don’t know, it seems completely pointless to have more than one smart switch in a three- or four-way system. Can also see it being potentially confusing when controlling from your devices. Some may even interfere with each other.
I may be wrong but I thought per code, when you re-identify a white wire to hot, it is not supposed to be switched. In other words, in the 3-way scenarios, the white can only be used as a common, not a traveler. I've had this discussion many times in my career. Your thoughts...Thanks!
I believe the intent of the terminology 200.7c was not to have the re-identified white make its way up to the light fixture as your switch leg. Then you would have a white neutral and a re-identified white to connect to the light. There would be an increased risk of reverse polarity on a polarized socket. The supply to the switch in my view would also be the travelers although you could make the argument that since the travelers run through the light box that would not be compliant. I don't think an inspector would consider that but who knows. But for sure if the travelers don't run through the light box in a standard or a dead end 3-way, a re-identified white for a traveler is code compliant.
Yes, John’s correct. As long as it doesn’t make its way back to the light, it’s fine. The reason they don’t allow you to recode a light back to the light is so that if recoding is neglected, testing has a 100% chance of confirming it’s hot.
I just saw somewhere on TH-cam that this is no longer code approved because at least one of the switch boxes needs a neutral ( to accommodate smart devices). Same goes for a good old single switch loop using 14-2. I’m not an electrician, what’s your take?
Double dead ends are still allowable, but you must run 14-4 to the switches instead of 14-3. You use the Black/Red/Blue wires for the 3-way, and the white is there for your neutral (grounded) conductor.
As of 2011, the double dead end 3 way, along with the 2 wire switch loop is a code violation. For the double dead end 3 way to be compliant, at a minimum a 14/4 NM must be run to one of the switch box's. (As an alternative, since 14/4 is rarely carried in your typical brick and mortar stores, and often too expensive to justify buying it for the very few applications that require it, you could run 2 runs of 14/2, one for a hot or switch leg and neutral, the other for the travellers; this two cable method must never be done with metallic sheathed cable such as AC or MC because inductive heating of the sheath will occur when only one conductor in the cable has current flowing. This double 14-2 NM method can also come in handy in a pinch if you need to finish wiring the 3 ways and ran out of 14-3. A single pole switch loop would require a 14-3 ran to the switch box.
@@sigcrazy7you ussally only need a neutral at one end of a three way...read the rule NEC 404.2(c) you almost never are required to have a neutral at both ends of a three way. Check the code This is in the rule about lights controlled from multiple switch locations not in the exceptions
@@Stevenj120volts Forgot about that. Good call. Don’t run across the need for these very often. I did buy a house once that had a California 3-way. I stared at it like a monkey doing a math problem trying to figure out what was going on.
Yes I made a video on that and also mention at the end of this video its not approved for new construction but could come in hand if you wanted to convert a single pole switch to two 3-ways.
Right before your sponsor message, it clicked what you meant by "double dead-end 3-way". It's when the power is fed to the light fixture first, and each 3-way switch is its own "dead-end" that heads back to the light box. Unfortunately I had a friend wire all the lights in his newly-furbished basement like this. And several 4-ways were involved too, and they all went to the ceiling too. And none of them were marked. And almost all of them were cut off way too short in the ceiling box. It was a mess!
Nice John! Thank you for the idea! I don't want to ask for free advice, but I've already used a three way switch in a non-standard way, and I wonder if it violates any code, and if you'd care to comment? I wired an outlet in our basement to be energized when the lights are off. I then plugged in an LED strobe. The rodents in our area seem to be deterred by the flashing, but it's annoying to have it flash when we're working down there. Pretty sure I was code compliant with the installation itself, but I've never heard of a three way switch used like this. I'm guessing it might cause some head scratching someday after we're no longer around to explain.
A 3-way switch is just a SPDT switch. I've wired things like that in my own home, such as like a Manual/Auto selector switch. Code compliance is a good question but I'd be surprised if there's something against it.
Cool that you took the time to explain that. That usually pertains to old construction right? Because if it's new construction then yes the person has the ability to run all those circuits to make those necessary runs . But when it's old and you just want to replace the switches, just copy the connections how you remove you install no need to try and remember so much . Nowadays there's what's called a lutron caseta wireless 3way look in to it and , your welcome.
Converting a single swith light for basement stairs into two 3 way switches is on my short list of projects. I think the live conductor goes to switch first before going to light, but I need to verify. Good to know of options if I am mistaken. Thank you for sharing!
All of the 3 way switches in my parents house from the 60s are wired using these two methods. I always called these "power at light" for the double dead-end and "master slave 3-way" for the dead-end.
I have this in my older house. But since it's EMT the blue line is an actual blue wire! Oh, and the switches control two separate ceiling lights with another wire running from the powered fixture through one of the switch boxes and up to the second ceiling box.
Just a question from germany, don't you have more than 3 wires each cable? It is a little confusing because we also can have for such installations a 5 wire cable. We use brown, black, grey as hot wires, blue als neutral and green/yellow (both colors combined) as earth or ground. From newer standards the blue has also been seen as "hot" or active/line. For LED stripes which use 4 wires, we normaly use a 7 wire cable where 6 black wires are numberd (1 to 6) and the 7th is earth in green/yellow. The Chigago-variant is here known as "Hamburger"-schematic which is forbidden since about mid 80's. Double Dead End 3-way we don't use in this configuration since about 15-20 years in new installations. Most we use a california variant, here mostly called "change-over" with 2 switches or cross-over with more than 2 switches. It's very interesting how other ones have the electricity going :) Big thanks for your videos! Some times I wish to have your larger boxes behind outlets and switches, espacily when planing went to the toilet ^^
No, it’s generally two or three wires per cable, excluding ground (so actually three or four, but the ground is not permitted to be used for any purpose other than as a ground)
I think this is how previous homeowner attempted to wire two 3 way switches to a light fixture in my house but messed something up b/c both 3 way light switches have to be switched up for the light to be on. Trying to figure out how it got messed up w/o making a switch that insta shorts.
Like I stated in the video it's not code compliant for new construction. But it's a good method for converting a single pole over to 3-ways in an existing building. Also 404.2 C states that you need a neutral in at least one switch location for lights controlled by multiple switches like 3-way and 4-ways. So as long as one switch box has a neutral you're good to go.
Thanks for mentioning you dotn need a neutral at both ends of the 3 way... side note ..NEC 200.7(c) re-identified whites can only be the supply to a switch not a return
@@BackyardMaine my understanding is only if the traveler is the supply to the switch Which you had in your dead end. But not in the double dead. Don't misunderstand I think it's a great video. With very clear info and great drawings.
@@Stevenj120volts Not at all I appreciate your comments. I believe the intent was not to have the reindentified white make its way up to the light fixture as your switch leg. Then you would have a white neutral and a reindentified white to connect to the light. There would be an increased risk of reverse polarity on a polarized socket. The supply to the switch in my view would also be the travelers although you could make the argument that since the travelers run through the light box that would not be compliant.
@@BackyardMaine that makes so much more sense because the 200.7 C predated the requirement to Re-id whites. So when we weren't re- identifying whites a switch loop fed down on a black would put two whites at the light fixture
15A circuits are very common. I made a video recently about a code change in the 2023 code allowing 10A circuits. They are not approved for receptacle circuits though. I would expect to see 16 gauge NM-B cable introduce before the next cycle in 2026.
Code only requires 20 amp circuits on kitchen, laundry, bathroom,s and garage,s . All other 120 volt circuits ,with some exceptions can be wired with 15 amp branch circuits.Some jurisdictions require all 20 amp branch circuits on residential installations but this is not common practice.With all lighting now being required to be at least 75% energy efficient, and eventually 100% LED lighting has become the norm . Lighting loads have been drastically reduced, hence 15 amp circuits don,t have any problem handling the light loads on bedrooms, halls,most family rooms,bonus rooms ,and dedicated lighting circuits. Most builders and home owners don’t won’t to pay the additional cost to wire a home completely with 20 amp 120 volt branch circuits.
According to the NEC, you don't have to phase a #14 wire. Also you are required to have a neutral in every switch box, even if you don't use it. Pretty picture though...
Actually you are wrong but thats ok I love to teach. Article 404.2 c states that where multiple switches control the same lights a neutral wire is only required at one of the switches. So no all 3-way and 4-way light switches do not require a neutral. Also I never said 14AWG wire is required for light switches. I show 14 and a 15A circuit but 12 and 20A circuits are also fine.
You do need a neutral at one of the two switch boxes now. I think I mentioned that this cannot be done on new construction and actually there would be no reason to with the walls open. It is a method to make a single pole into a set of three ways on an existing building
Neutral in all switch boxes must be very new. I wired 1300 s.f. of additions on a house last year and virtually all single pole switches were switch legs where the white was re-identified as the hot. Also have a dead end 3-way or two in there and everything passed inspection. And this inspector was pretty meticulous.
The code change to require a neutral at a switch box came in the 2011 cycle but there was an exception stating that is wasn't required if it was possible to fish another cable in later without removing any finish coverings. But in the 2023 code that exception was removed. Also 404.2 C states that you need a neutral in at least one switch location for lights controlled by multiple switches like 3-way and 4-ways. So as long as one has a neutral you're good to go.
With 3-way switches the travelers (red and white in my example) carry power between switches depending on their position. There are actually four combination and two will have the light on and two will have the light off. up/up, up/down, down/down, and down/up. Which traveler is used depends of the position of the switch. If we didn't have the white travel they would not work.
Great video, but I'm not a fan of the idea of having to cut the circuit breaker off just to change a burnt out light bulb (to remove power from the light fixture, for the bulb change).
How can a regular light switch act as a 3 way switch Found a buried box in wall With 4 cables all 14/2. Black romex to white romex b to b w to w To a 3 way switch Then back to box white romex to black romex. B to B. W to W
The deadend refers to the idea there is only one cable. Yes inside the cable we have 3 conductors. But we only run one cable to the box instead feeding a cable into the switch then a cable from that box and up to the light. Going in and out of the box with two cables is the more standard way of doing it.
Both switch boxes are dead ended, meaning that with only switched power and no neutral, the circuit cannot continue on to other loads such as lights and receptacles. The first method "the dead end 3-way" has power that isn't switched and also a neutral in the first switch box.
@@Stevenj120volts Ah i forgot you guys use that big cable with 3 wires inside. In that case, yeah, they all look like dead-ends. Thanks for the light! hehe
This demonstration is really pointless unless you live in a older home and trying to figure out what’s going on, electrical code requires you to have a neutral in each box. There is still a power and feed and dead in switch option where you don’t have to have a neutral at the dead end side. But as far as new construction goes, that is an old method and I wouldn’t use it because it’s completely outdated , and the way that I would do it, you would never have to use a white as your common or your traveler. There’s many ways to accomplish a three-way switch. I appreciate you showing us a video on a 1920 style three-way switch keep it up. It’s interesting.
You are have both misunderstood the code rule and misquoted the location of code rule. The rule is NEC 404.2(c) and it requires a neutral at one end of a three way
Incorrect read the rule NEC 404.2(c) you almost never are required to have a neutral at both ends of a three way. Check the code This is in the rule about lights controlled from multiple switch locations not in the exceptions
@@CJRock-xn5qf The context is given and the rule is explained in this at the 8:30 mark... So it 100% WRONG to say it's not code compliant to not have a neutral. This is not a confusing code rule. The code black and white says you only need a neutral at one location when dealing with lights controlled from multiple loactions. No need to play word games. I am not wrong. I have a 122k followers on tik Tok and 36k on Instagram with over a million views a month. I will pay pal you $100 if you find any time I am wrong in any of my videos
A neutral is only required at one switch box for multiple switches the control the same light. I covered that in the video. I also cover that the double dead end cannot be used for new construction.
It does in at least one switch box per switch leg. He did mention that this isn’t code compliant in new construction (technically not code compliant at all), but for three-way conversion, may be your best (and only*) option. *short of ripping out the existing wire and fully reconfiguring it. Not fun.
WTF is a double dead end? I’ve been an electrician for 43 years and I never in my life heard of a double dead end!! Fed at one end switched at the other
Typically you would have power ran to one switchbox on the common and the switch leg on the other switch instead of everything splicing in the light box.
All switch boxes have to contain the neutral wire , dead end three ways are not allowed by code anymore. Reason why ? All switch boxes have to have the ability for the installation of occupancy sensors that generally require a neutral wire to operate.
Check again. 404.2 C states that you need a neutral in at least one switch location for lights controlled by multiple switches like 3-way and 4-ways. So as long as one has a neutral you're good to go. The double dead end would not be compliant for new construction like I said in the video.
@@BackyardMaine That is true of NEC code but our Local AHJ,s insist that we’re keep the neutral continuous in every switch box to accommodate the installation of occupancy sensors or smart switching at any and all switch locations.
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Very thankful for the single dead-end explanation you gave first. I have watched other videos of this exact setup where power and lights are coming into the first box with only a switch at the second box. While other and different wiring explanations seem to "work", they were complicated (by passing line power over through box 1 to box 2 and then using common on SW1 up to the load side. That method seems to not work if adding a Lutron Diva dimming switch at SW1 location like I want to. Your video is VERY clear and easy to follow and solves my problem! Great video!! Thank you!
Awesome. I’m glad it was able to help. Thanks.
Amazing. Thank you. I have watched many, many TH-cam videos on this topic and they were all clear as mud. Yours, though, is abundantly clear. Very easy to follow. Yours are some of the very best electrical videos on TH-cam. Again, THANK YOU!!!
Thank you so much.. I love reading comments like yours. Make all the work worth while.
I recently did some troubleshooting in a kitchen which was wired this way. Somebody (I’m guessing a homeowner) removed one of the three way switches and put in a single pole switch. They didn’t know where to put the white wire so they put it on the equipment ground screw on the switch. It was an old cloth wire house without proper equipment grounding. So every time someone flipped the other three way switch the yoke and metal box had 120v to neutral. No one ever got shocked because there was no ground nearby to touch. Plus once it was all installed the only non plastic parts were the two painted screws holding the plate on. I did put my probe in the screw slot and tested to a nearby outlet’s neutral and it was 120! The homeowner said it was like that when they moved in a couple years ago. Crazy!
Thank you for posting this . Just came across this when someone on the carpenter crew disconnected the switches during renovation and they ask me to take a look at it. I figured it out and in my mind I thought I had it correct then I came across your channel and it confirmed I was correct on reinstalling the the three way switches. Hey what’s up with the Air Force hat ? 37 years all together for me
I moved to Florida in '
86. Seeing your content makes me miss Maine!
Same with a friend of mine. I’ll have a new video up tomorrow
It is interesting how they are jumping back and forth between compliant and non-compliant over weird reasons. As long as you don't do a Chicago 3way, you are pretty safe :)
And of course, you would normally cross over the wires, so the light is off, with both switches in the off position.
You are obviously well versed on the subject of wiring and of course, your choice of meals, Factor, is also a Grand choice in my household, I have not been disappointed !!.....
I was blown away by how good the meals actually were. We went through our box in two days. lol I'll be ordering more. Thanks for dropping by..
@@BackyardMaine another competitor of theirs is Home Chef, my wife brags about the Meals and how much she's saved on Groceries using Both......
I'm viewing from the UK, not an electrician but comfortable with the topic and have changed a few lights and switches, so this is all very interesting to see practices over in the US :) Very clearly diagrammed and explained -- I can see you prepared well! I enjoyed your explanation of the Chicago (yikes) and California three-ways!
FWIW, I don't know what the UK "code" ("The Regs", or IET Wiring Regulations) says is legal, but from my experience it seems normal to have the power at the fixture and to make loops to switches and back, similar to this. Standard pendant fittings have a 3-3-2 screw terminal bank tailored for a single switch, though I have seen them wired "creatively" which left me sketching and buzzing through to figure out what was going on when changing a fitting! I hope our Regs have caught up with requiring neutrals at switch boxes, but my place was built in the 70s so no chance 😂 Keep up the good work :)
Ahh a friend from the UK.. I'm a retired electrical engineer and the guy I oriented to take my place was from Greenock Scotland. Great guy but I couldn't understand a word he said. lol. Thanks for dropping by..
I call it "three way, power at the light." Great demo. Thanks
Thanks for watching.
For those who believe a neutral is required by code, that is incorrect based on code. But we need to remember that code is the minimum requirement, so jurisdiction having authority can require a neutral at every switch location. Having a neutral at every location is not a code violation. Not having a neutral at any location is a code violation. Depending what code year your state uses will also determine what are violation and not violations. There are States that still only apply the 2008 code, so what does that code year say about it?
This reminded me of me installing 2 dead end 3-ways with a 4-way. The line and load go to one outlet switch box. The power ties to one of the 3 wires sending it to a 2nd outlet. The switch leg ties to the other 3 wire going to the 3rd outlet. The white and red wires are used as travelers from each of the 3 wires, but instead of tying them together they are landed on a 4-way switch. Then obviously the neutrals are tied together and grounds.
No actually. The AHJ cannot make up code. The enforce the code but don't make it up. If there is an argument about the interpretation of a code reference the AHJ will have the authority.
This definitely interesting. I will say you definitely want a neutral (and ground) inside each light switch box if you ever want to run smart light switches.
The grounds are always required and now a neutral is required in at least one switch location.
I don’t know, it seems completely pointless to have more than one smart switch in a three- or four-way system. Can also see it being potentially confusing when controlling from your devices. Some may even interfere with each other.
@@xHadesStamps It depends on the product. You just need to hope that the neutral is in the box you want it to be in!
I thought the thumbnail was showing 2 wires on the same screw. I was super excited to learn something mind blowing 🤪
I may be wrong but I thought per code, when you re-identify a white wire to hot, it is not supposed to be switched. In other words, in the 3-way scenarios, the white can only be used as a common, not a traveler. I've had this discussion many times in my career. Your thoughts...Thanks!
I believe the intent of the terminology 200.7c was not to have the re-identified white make its way up to the light fixture as your switch leg. Then you would have a white neutral and a re-identified white to connect to the light. There would be an increased risk of reverse polarity on a polarized socket. The supply to the switch in my view would also be the travelers although you could make the argument that since the travelers run through the light box that would not be compliant. I don't think an inspector would consider that but who knows. But for sure if the travelers don't run through the light box in a standard or a dead end 3-way, a re-identified white for a traveler is code compliant.
Yes, John’s correct. As long as it doesn’t make its way back to the light, it’s fine. The reason they don’t allow you to recode a light back to the light is so that if recoding is neglected, testing has a 100% chance of confirming it’s hot.
I just saw somewhere on TH-cam that this is no longer code approved because at least one of the switch boxes needs a neutral ( to accommodate smart devices). Same goes for a good old single switch loop using 14-2. I’m not an electrician, what’s your take?
Double dead ends are still allowable, but you must run 14-4 to the switches instead of 14-3. You use the Black/Red/Blue wires for the 3-way, and the white is there for your neutral (grounded) conductor.
As of 2011, the double dead end 3 way, along with the 2 wire switch loop is a code violation. For the double dead end 3 way to be compliant, at a minimum a 14/4 NM must be run to one of the switch box's. (As an alternative, since 14/4 is rarely carried in your typical brick and mortar stores, and often too expensive to justify buying it for the very few applications that require it, you could run 2 runs of 14/2, one for a hot or switch leg and neutral, the other for the travellers; this two cable method must never be done with metallic sheathed cable such as AC or MC because inductive heating of the sheath will occur when only one conductor in the cable has current flowing. This double 14-2 NM method can also come in handy in a pinch if you need to finish wiring the 3 ways and ran out of 14-3.
A single pole switch loop would require a 14-3 ran to the switch box.
@@sigcrazy7you ussally only need a neutral at one end of a three way...read the rule NEC 404.2(c) you almost never are required to have a neutral at both ends of a three way. Check the code This is in the rule about lights controlled from multiple switch locations not in the exceptions
@@Stevenj120volts Forgot about that. Good call. Don’t run across the need for these very often. I did buy a house once that had a California 3-way. I stared at it like a monkey doing a math problem trying to figure out what was going on.
Yes I made a video on that and also mention at the end of this video its not approved for new construction but could come in hand if you wanted to convert a single pole switch to two 3-ways.
Right before your sponsor message, it clicked what you meant by "double dead-end 3-way". It's when the power is fed to the light fixture first, and each 3-way switch is its own "dead-end" that heads back to the light box. Unfortunately I had a friend wire all the lights in his newly-furbished basement like this. And several 4-ways were involved too, and they all went to the ceiling too. And none of them were marked. And almost all of them were cut off way too short in the ceiling box. It was a mess!
Great explanation of a dead end for these newbs.
Thank you.
Nice John! Thank you for the idea! I don't want to ask for free advice, but I've already used a three way switch in a non-standard way, and I wonder if it violates any code, and if you'd care to comment? I wired an outlet in our basement to be energized when the lights are off. I then plugged in an LED strobe. The rodents in our area seem to be deterred by the flashing, but it's annoying to have it flash when we're working down there. Pretty sure I was code compliant with the installation itself, but I've never heard of a three way switch used like this. I'm guessing it might cause some head scratching someday after we're no longer around to explain.
I wouldn't worry about it but if you sell the house you may want to make a change. Thanks for dropping by..
@@BackyardMaine Thank you John. Great video as always!
@@TomFarrell-p9z Its my pleasure..👍
A 3-way switch is just a SPDT switch. I've wired things like that in my own home, such as like a Manual/Auto selector switch. Code compliance is a good question but I'd be surprised if there's something against it.
Cool that you took the time to explain that. That usually pertains to old construction right? Because if it's new construction then yes the person has the ability to run all those circuits to make those necessary runs . But when it's old and you just want to replace the switches, just copy the connections how you remove you install no need to try and remember so much . Nowadays there's what's called a lutron caseta wireless 3way look in to it and , your welcome.
Yes old work mostly. I know about the remote switches from Lutron and others. Maybe I’ll make a video on those sometime as well.
Converting a single swith light for basement stairs into two 3 way switches is on my short list of projects. I think the live conductor goes to switch first before going to light, but I need to verify. Good to know of options if I am mistaken. Thank you for sharing!
My pleasure.. Thanks for watching.
Yes. You always switch the hot, never the neutral.
All of the 3 way switches in my parents house from the 60s are wired using these two methods. I always called these "power at light" for the double dead-end and "master slave 3-way" for the dead-end.
I have this in my older house. But since it's EMT the blue line is an actual blue wire! Oh, and the switches control two separate ceiling lights with another wire running from the powered fixture through one of the switch boxes and up to the second ceiling box.
Just a question from germany, don't you have more than 3 wires each cable?
It is a little confusing because we also can have for such installations a 5 wire cable.
We use brown, black, grey as hot wires, blue als neutral and green/yellow (both colors combined) as earth or ground.
From newer standards the blue has also been seen as "hot" or active/line.
For LED stripes which use 4 wires, we normaly use a 7 wire cable where 6 black wires are numberd (1 to 6) and the 7th is earth in green/yellow.
The Chigago-variant is here known as "Hamburger"-schematic which is forbidden since about mid 80's. Double Dead End 3-way we don't use in this configuration since about 15-20 years in new installations.
Most we use a california variant, here mostly called "change-over" with 2 switches or cross-over with more than 2 switches.
It's very interesting how other ones have the electricity going :)
Big thanks for your videos!
Some times I wish to have your larger boxes behind outlets and switches, espacily when planing went to the toilet ^^
No, it’s generally two or three wires per cable, excluding ground (so actually three or four, but the ground is not permitted to be used for any purpose other than as a ground)
I think this is how previous homeowner attempted to wire two 3 way switches to a light fixture in my house but messed something up b/c both 3 way light switches have to be switched up for the light to be on. Trying to figure out how it got messed up w/o making a switch that insta shorts.
Sounds like you just have a miss wire. Someone probably mixed up a traveler and a common. Should be an easy fix.
Awesome explanation and simple yet very effective graphics!! Really appreciate your work and content. Thanks very much! 42-Jack
Much appreciated Jack! Thanks for stopping by.
Excellent explanation. Thank you!
My pleasure.. Thanks for watching.
Hey wait this loks almost exactly like what I though t was the nomal, 'standard' way of making a three way switch, if not then what is the difference?
I have several videos showing all the different methods used for 3-way switch wiring. They should answer your question..
I've done this but worried w new code about leaving dead end box w/o neutral. Is this code compliant now?
Like I stated in the video it's not code compliant for new construction. But it's a good method for converting a single pole over to 3-ways in an existing building. Also 404.2 C states that you need a neutral in at least one switch location for lights controlled by multiple switches like 3-way and 4-ways. So as long as one switch box has a neutral you're good to go.
Thanks for mentioning you dotn need a neutral at both ends of the 3 way... side note ..NEC 200.7(c) re-identified whites can only be the supply to a switch not a return
True and they can be used as travelers as well.
@@BackyardMaine my understanding is only if the traveler is the supply to the switch Which you had in your dead end. But not in the double dead. Don't misunderstand I think it's a great video. With very clear info and great drawings.
@@Stevenj120volts Not at all I appreciate your comments. I believe the intent was not to have the reindentified white make its way up to the light fixture as your switch leg. Then you would have a white neutral and a reindentified white to connect to the light. There would be an increased risk of reverse polarity on a polarized socket. The supply to the switch in my view would also be the travelers although you could make the argument that since the travelers run through the light box that would not be compliant.
@@BackyardMaine that makes so much more sense because the 200.7 C predated the requirement to Re-id whites. So when we weren't re- identifying whites a switch loop fed down on a black would put two whites at the light fixture
How many houses do you run across that have 14 gauge in them? Seems like only the crappy older buildings even run 15 amp service around here.
Stuff is getting more efficient. So small wires are the more modern way. The code just introduced a 10 amp wire and breakers for lights
15A circuits are very common. I made a video recently about a code change in the 2023 code allowing 10A circuits. They are not approved for receptacle circuits though. I would expect to see 16 gauge NM-B cable introduce before the next cycle in 2026.
You are correct. I actually made a video on the subject.
Code only requires 20 amp circuits on kitchen, laundry, bathroom,s and garage,s . All other 120 volt circuits ,with some exceptions can be wired with 15 amp branch circuits.Some jurisdictions require all 20 amp branch circuits on residential installations but this is not common practice.With all lighting now being required to be at least 75% energy efficient, and eventually 100% LED lighting has become the norm . Lighting loads have been drastically reduced, hence 15 amp circuits don,t have any problem handling the light loads on bedrooms, halls,most family rooms,bonus rooms ,and dedicated lighting circuits. Most builders and home owners don’t won’t to pay the additional cost to wire a home completely with 20 amp 120 volt branch circuits.
According to the NEC, you don't have to phase a #14 wire. Also you are required to have a neutral in every switch box, even if you don't use it. Pretty picture though...
Actually you are wrong but thats ok I love to teach. Article 404.2 c states that where multiple switches control the same lights a neutral wire is only required at one of the switches. So no all 3-way and 4-way light switches do not require a neutral. Also I never said 14AWG wire is required for light switches. I show 14 and a 15A circuit but 12 and 20A circuits are also fine.
Don't you need a neutral at the box though?
You do need a neutral at one of the two switch boxes now. I think I mentioned that this cannot be done on new construction and actually there would be no reason to with the walls open. It is a method to make a single pole into a set of three ways on an existing building
Neutral in all switch boxes must be very new. I wired 1300 s.f. of additions on a house last year and virtually all single pole switches were switch legs where the white was re-identified as the hot. Also have a dead end 3-way or two in there and everything passed inspection. And this inspector was pretty meticulous.
The code change to require a neutral at a switch box came in the 2011 cycle but there was an exception stating that is wasn't required if it was possible to fish another cable in later without removing any finish coverings. But in the 2023 code that exception was removed. Also 404.2 C states that you need a neutral in at least one switch location for lights controlled by multiple switches like 3-way and 4-ways. So as long as one has a neutral you're good to go.
In the double dead end - I don't see that the white ( labeled as black) going to the switches does. Maybe I missed it in the explanation?
With 3-way switches the travelers (red and white in my example) carry power between switches depending on their position. There are actually four combination and two will have the light on and two will have the light off. up/up, up/down, down/down, and down/up. Which traveler is used depends of the position of the switch. If we didn't have the white travel they would not work.
@@BackyardMaine Thanks!
What if your wire doesn't come with red wire just the blk, WHT, and ground
Then you won't have enough wires to connect a 3-way
Great video, but I'm not a fan of the idea of having to cut the circuit breaker off just to change a burnt out light bulb (to remove power from the light fixture, for the bulb change).
How can a regular light switch act as a 3 way switch
Found a buried box in wall With 4 cables all 14/2. Black romex to white romex b to b w to w To a 3 way switch
Then back to box white romex to black romex. B to B. W to W
Not sure what you haver there. Is it a double pole switch?
It can’t. Do you maybe have a dangerous Chi ca go three-way?
@@xHadesStamps not sure need to do more research
Take the wall down
@@bquedenfeld As much as it sucks to do that, probably should.
Secret? I use [also] this method since 1964!
I didn't say it was new. I said is was not commonly known.
Both have the exact same topology except everything goes through the box in the second case.
In fact it'd be more like a no-dead-end.
what did i miss?
The deadend refers to the idea there is only one cable. Yes inside the cable we have 3 conductors. But we only run one cable to the box instead feeding a cable into the switch then a cable from that box and up to the light. Going in and out of the box with two cables is the more standard way of doing it.
Both switch boxes are dead ended, meaning that with only switched power and no neutral, the circuit cannot continue on to other loads such as lights and receptacles. The first method "the dead end 3-way" has power that isn't switched and also a neutral in the first switch box.
@@Stevenj120volts Ah i forgot you guys use that big cable with 3 wires inside. In that case, yeah, they all look like dead-ends. Thanks for the light! hehe
the Double Dead End 3-Way is like a cadaver compared to the Triple Threat Chicago 3-Way
True that.. lol
Just use a wireless switch with a remote
That is an option as well.
This demonstration is really pointless unless you live in a older home and trying to figure out what’s going on, electrical code requires you to have a neutral in each box. There is still a power and feed and dead in switch option where you don’t have to have a neutral at the dead end side. But as far as new construction goes, that is an old method and I wouldn’t use it because it’s completely outdated , and the way that I would do it, you would never have to use a white as your common or your traveler. There’s many ways to accomplish a three-way switch. I appreciate you showing us a video on a 1920 style three-way switch keep it up. It’s interesting.
U also need a neutral at the boxes (2020 nec) 300.3
You def do not.
You are have both misunderstood the code rule and misquoted the location of code rule. The rule is NEC 404.2(c) and it requires a neutral at one end of a three way
Check 404.2 (C) the article I show you in the video.
Two black travelers confuse me. How do I know what the traveler
Red and White travelers. The blacks in my example are the feed and the leg to the light.
Without a neutral in switch box this is not code compliant
Incorrect read the rule NEC 404.2(c) you almost never are required to have a neutral at both ends of a three way. Check the code This is in the rule about lights controlled from multiple switch locations not in the exceptions
@@CJRock-xn5qf The context is given and the rule is explained in this at the 8:30 mark... So it 100% WRONG to say it's not code compliant to not have a neutral. This is not a confusing code rule. The code black and white says you only need a neutral at one location when dealing with lights controlled from multiple loactions. No need to play word games. I am not wrong. I have a 122k followers on tik Tok and 36k on Instagram with over a million views a month. I will pay pal you $100 if you find any time I am wrong in any of my videos
I will look into this, but my AHJ’s look for a neutral in every switch box on new construction and wouldn’t allow this.
A neutral is only required at one switch box for multiple switches the control the same light. I covered that in the video. I also cover that the double dead end cannot be used for new construction.
I posted the code article in the video. Some jurisdictions may require a neutral at all switch locations but they're not required per the NEC.
I did this once when I was young. It hurt my head.
I know wire isn’t too cheap, but damn.
I'm under the impression that the new code requires a neutral available in switch boxes for the new electronic switches
It does in at least one switch box per switch leg. He did mention that this isn’t code compliant in new construction (technically not code compliant at all), but for three-way conversion, may be your best (and only*) option.
*short of ripping out the existing wire and fully reconfiguring it. Not fun.
WTF is a double dead end?
I’ve been an electrician for 43 years and I never in my life heard of a double dead end!!
Fed at one end switched at the other
That's the way most of use wire them buy there are several other methods. A few of them are now code violations.
Seems like the normal way to me, am I lost here?
I have other videos detailing the standard 3-way, the California 3-way and the Chicago 3-way. They are all different but accomplish the same outcome.
Typically you would have power ran to one switchbox on the common and the switch leg on the other switch instead of everything splicing in the light box.
All switch boxes have to contain the neutral wire , dead end three ways are not allowed by code anymore. Reason why ? All switch boxes have to have the ability for the installation of occupancy sensors that generally require a neutral wire to operate.
Check again. 404.2 C states that you need a neutral in at least one switch location for lights controlled by multiple switches like 3-way and 4-ways. So as long as one has a neutral you're good to go. The double dead end would not be compliant for new construction like I said in the video.
@@BackyardMaine That is true of NEC code but our Local AHJ,s insist that we’re keep the neutral continuous in every switch box to accommodate the installation of occupancy sensors or smart switching at any and all switch locations.
run a 4 wire
Not code compliant no neutral and you would need a box capable 11 conductors. So for 14 Guage wire that's roughly 17 cubic inches for the wire alone!
Did you miss the part where I said it’s not code compliant for new construction. Box fill is easy to remedy with a deeper box.
Also you only need a neutral at on of your 3-way or 4-way switch locations. 404.2c