Video Links here>> California 3-Way - th-cam.com/video/AeXFe5ghmKQ/w-d-xo.html Standard, Dead End and Single poles Switches here>> th-cam.com/video/B6gfI73Tvg8/w-d-xo.html
Retired Electrician, Worked around the Washington DC area and fixed a few of these in older homes. We called them "Lazy Susans." Met my wife on a service call to repair one, I was the third electrician she called, everything was pulled apart for the remodel. First two walked away insisting there was no way that it had worked before. I bet her dinner that I could fix it in 20 minutes (4 gang box of switches). We had Pizza - she paid.
I mainly do low-voltage stuff, but occasionally I'll install smart light switches. Also in the DC area. This old wiring method explains so much...I've seen a handful of switches with this unfamiliar wiring which I had assumed was just improperly installed. Tripped a breaker when testing a new smart dimmer switch once, and from that point on I no longer touch anything that isn't wired according to modern code. I just tell them to call an electrician. Another oddity with older homes is the doorbell transformer. I've seen them in some very creative locations. In older homes they're sometimes tucked away behind a random wall somewhere, and the only way to access them is to cut out the drywall.
Love this story, I’ve been an electrician for 45yrs in Washington DC and Lazy Susan or also called Hot and Lazy are extremely common here in almost any non updated house. I know of about a dozen different configurations depending on two or three floor homes.
We bought an old house in 1981 and I, a young guy knowing the rudiments of residential knob and tube, was rewiring a 3-way on our stairs with romex when I discovered a light fixture off but both terminals hot. After calling my father, we tried to draw it out but failed. Then we called my grandfather, a longtime lineman for the regional power company. He drew it out for us and, as I remember, it was just as shown here. I've wired up numerous houses over the years but have never run into it again. Thanks for a great video.
The light bulb just came on. Pun intended. My house was built in 33, the upper floor still has some knob and tube until I replace all the plaster and lathe. I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on with the hallway light. Now I know. It was 2 wire three way when built, but the automotive mechanic that owned it before me and did the electrical conversion from K&T to lumex replaced one of the switches with a standard 2 way, and disconnected the upstairs switch that was connected to the K&T. Wasn't the only live wire I found hidden behind a drywall patch.
1981 and you didn't just run some Romex? Cheap much? You do realize that knob and tube is the same method that made Victorian homes so combustible.....I wouldn't sleep one night in a house with this type of wiring because I've been in a house fire before. In spite of having been an adrenaline junkie into my 30s, that's just too much risk. Would rather go base jumping. The only time I actually died was the house fire, where I was clinically dead from smoke inhalation for about 3 minutes. Yes, I saw the bright light, was floating away. Then I said, 'fuck no!' and clawed my way back to life. Pretty ironic considering the shit life I've had. The fact is that if I didn't have the survival gene, I probably wouldn't be here in the first place. Genetics is one hell of a mindfuck.
Retired electrician. I have run across several of these 3 ways. Usually they don't have power run between the switches. Instead, switch 1 gets power from receptacle 1 and switch 2 gets power from receptacle 2. This worked OKish when we had single phase 2 wire services, but when you upgrade to 3 wire 2 phase electric services, you could have the switches on different phases and send 240 volts to the bulb. I knew this as a farmer's 3 way. I learned about them early in my career and made money fixing them when other guys were confused.
The same circuit was also used in Germany (of course it is also not allowed anymore nowadays). We call it the "Hamburger Wechselschaltung" Which would translate to the "Hamburg three way". I find it funny that you also name that after a city. But here it was also not only done in Hamburg. I remember whitnessing my Grandpa getting an electric shock from one of those things when he was changing a lightbulb which was turned off at the time.
@@zaxmaxlax, were you and the German dude really hoping for something a little.... Electrifying in a different way, when encountering a big city three-way? At least it did shock your pants off, lol.
About 15 years ago I ran into something similar and my boss at the time got mad at me for not being able to figure it out and make the repair. I've been through school in both the Navy and an accredited DOL-certified vocational school and now I'm a licensed electrical contractor and I'm still baffled lol. Great explanation through and I guess it's good that I dont understand it because its a dangerous way to wire lighting and receptacle circuits. Great video!!
Hey. You're not alone with things like that at times. I do a lot of machine requiring and do most of my own diagrams. I've come across stuff from time to time that just doesn't sink in for quite a while. For myself, all I can do if it's something I need to do is have several things to do it with, including self made videos. Funny, but once I started making the videos, I never needed them on a site. Not for myself nor anyone I was trying to show. Go figure, and much continued success. Sounds like you more than earned it. Thank you for your service to our country!
In 30 years of doing electric work I've 8:02 only seen this one time in an old knob and tube home we were rewiring. My boss at the time called it a switched neutral 3 way and showed us how it actually worked. Very cool to see you describe it with such great detail.
This is KINDA ingenious in that it makes the XOR operation by inverting the lampholder polarity for the two ON states and double-hotting or double-neutraling it for the OFF states. Back when I studied the topic, this was not even given as an option. We were taught straight off to make the "hallway switch" by wiring hot to one switch, connecting the switches through the travelers, then taking the lamp hot from the other switch. And in a 230V country I can readily see why this was not even an option.
When I was a kid puzzling out how electrical systems worked (based on my experience of wiring up a train set), this is what I came up with for the 'magic' of three way switches. I thought it's how they all worked until I came across my first standard three-way, which was very confusing to me at the time based on my Chicago assumptions from childhood.
I’ll never forget my first experience as a young apprentice. Homeowner already took it all apart to replace switches and marked nothing. I was unable to figure I out because I was trying to think competently on something that isn’t competent. I assumed the homeowner didn’t realize that the 3-way never worked properly. I later questioned some old timers that explained the dangerous system to me. Glad they did because I’ve run into many of them. Two of them that stand out: 1) this setup with a 3rd switch location (using a 4-way switch) 2) the two 3-ways were on different circuits, both on the same phase. It would be pure luck on a service upgrade or panel change to get them on the same phase Great Video! Many have never seen or heard of this!
Finally, an answer to why I always got zapped as a little kid, visiting my grandparent's 1940s vintage home in south suburban Chicagoland. Usually happened when getting out of the bath and flipping the switch with a wet hand. I bought a house in 2011 and had a lighting circuit that was wired Chicago style. Had it fixed immediately. Frankly, I'm surprised the inspector passed it but I live in AZ where building and zoning regulations are just a serving suggestion.
This principle is used in some bidirectional power converters, as well as solid-state on-off controllable AC switches - unlike triacs which you cannot turn off before the next zero crossing. Simple, yet effective.
Control by switching the neutral is one sure way to get somebody hurt. Never knew this was allowed and even worse that it still exists. Thanks for excellent explanation.
This reminds me of lamp cord replacements. I've seen several with the polarity switched, leaving the screw shell hot all the time, including when the lamp is off. Always good to do a continuity check to make sure the screw shell is connected to the wide blade on the plug.
Modern lamp cord has one identified conductor. The identified conductor is supposed to be the neutral and wired to the shell and the wide blade of the plug.
@@nooneyouknowhere6148 That is correct. But on some cords, especially clear cords, it can be next to impossible to see. Sometimes it's just easier to stick the prongs of your ohm meter on it.
I was using Bridgeport mill at work, and someone long ago had added a gooseneck lamp to it and bolted it to the machone, but the lamp had a household type brown 2 wire lamp cord and non polarized plug, so the stupid thing could wind up plugged in either way and it ws always being unplugged and plugged back in later if someone needed the outlet and no one was using the mill. SO I go to use the mill, turned on the lamp which had a metal shade on the bulb, and I went to adjust the lamp's position and the moment I moved it BOOM!! it shorted out! SO my hand was on the metal goose neck and I was leaning over the mill bed a little to reach it, of course the mill bed is bare unpainted steel, but fortunately I wasnt touching it! I checked the lamp and discovered the plug wasnt even polarized! It had been like that for years and the crappy thin paper used in the lamo sockets back then to separate the metal shell from the rest and cover the terminals became brittle and moving the lamo was all it took. I re-wired that crappy lamp properly.
We have lamps from the 40's, 50's and 60's. All the plugs have same-size prongs (non-polarized) also really old outlets were also non-polarized, as both slots were the same size. I'm thinking polarized plugs started coming out in the 70's.
Retired electrician, mystery solved. I have run across this 30 years ago in Denver, really never understood til now. It's always bothered me that I didn't understand, GOOD JOB!
My father showed me this one when I was a boy. He didn't call Chicago style he had another local name for it but he said don't do this thing. Saved me some jolts over the years just not assuming a light fixture is safe because it's off. He showed me the right way a couple of years later when he put one in our new house. Ran into it again in my apartment. The guy who did originally the wiring was a friend hes gone now but he warned me. He said it was up to code. For about 1970 that is so be careful putting up the kitchen light. And sure enough it was hot even switched off. He also said the plumbing looks even weirder but that's never been an issue. Basically it's an old building from about 1880 that was pretty much gutted in the 60s and the upstairs turned into 7 bachelor apartments. Most of the work was good he said, and I can see it was but it was done on a budget and they did some odd things. The thing to watch for is because the place does not have separate power for each apartment things like the breaker that controls my outlets in the sitting are will also turn off the outlets in my neighbors bedroom on the other side of the wall. That's ok though. Much rather have power off where I don't expect it than power on.
The only reason someone would ever do this, is to add a second switch to a 2-wire system, that was originally intended for a single switch. This is the only way it can be done, without tearing out the walls, to replace the "Romex" with "Triex", to do it right. (I STILL wouldn't do it) Even with that said, each switch needs a neutral and hot, and, a line needs to be run from each switch to the light. If you have to run those lines, I don't see how that's any easier, than to run the 3-conductor "Triex" wire, allowing it to be done to code.
I’ve been an electrician for 27 years. The town where I live started getting electricity in the early 20’s, so I’ve ran across and serviced some knob and tube wiring. In lots of those they switched the neutral instead of the “hot” in all light fixtures. I would try to tell people to always take the fuse out or pull the main block out if they changed a light bulb. Thankfully, there’s less and less of it now. The old knob and tube was really good for its time, all the connections were soldered and taped. They took pride in it, and those connections last a lifetime and then some. I have never seen this type of three way before, but someone was pretty smart to figure that out!
This explains a lot of wacky issues I’ve had with my 1921 house. Another peculiarity I’ve seen in my house was fused neutrals, I.e. both hot and neutral going through their own separate fuses. Not all the fixtures and receptacles on a hot fuse would return through the same neutral fuse.
I found this chicago 3 way in a 1920s farm house here in Denver. the home owner changed the switches but got the wires mixed up. I figured it out and got it working so my recommendation. if you change the switches pay attention to where the terminals are on the old switches and on the new one(especially the common).
I work on many older homes in Chicago. I am currently (pun intended) ripping into my 1914 home with layers of insanely bad wiring. I've got one 'circuit' somewhat like this. I've got a degree in EE, and figuring this place out is insane. I've got a Klien ET450 tracer and am shocked (yes, pun) at where someone(s) ran lines over the years.
Well, good to know you figuring it all out and fixing it. I spent the last 10 years of my career employed as an electrical engineer for Texas Instruments.
@@BackyardMaine Cool. Like everyone, I started with TI chips on the breadboard. I started writing assembly code for Intel 8051s in '84 and spent the next 38 years designing and writing software. A good chunk of that was working on RTOS/embedded systems with the hardware/chip 'guys'. Fascinating stuff. Ironically, I was just looking at TI's website after Cruz voted against the 'chips' act to check out their fab plants in TX.
@@stringlarson1247 I was the facilities electrical Engineer here at the TI FAB in Southern Maine. (MFAB). I have been to the Texas facilities many times, both the in Dallas and RFAB in Richardson TX. I'm retired now making youtube videos in my spare time.
@@BackyardMaine That's awesome buddy I live close to the old stafford Texas ti plant My aunt started in clean room w plant opened and retired just before it shut down as director of comm of some sorts- ann miller in the 90s looking into the clean room and playing w their demo wafer chip movement training program I can remember the president talking in 95 or so saying we've just recently released more info on our printing system that could print a map of cont us states on the size of your thumbnail Man it was a cool place to visit especially when younger Always had a great fitness and rec center too Good ole days
That was an excellent video and explanation. I came across this after the home owner had dismantled the switches during his remodel. The home owner insisted that the three-way switch worked and I, of course, didn't believe him. I tried to understand how this three-way could have worked but failed miserably. I ended up rewiring the switches but I was always baffled by that scenario. Thank you for enlightening me after like 25 years. lol. This was a 1940s house in Queens, NYC.
Great explanation! I ran across this setup in an early 1900’s house with k&t wiring here in NJ and couldn’t believe what I was seeing. I wasn’t comfortable leaving it like that but it was controlling the stairway lights at my buddy’s house and it had to work from both locations. I ended up putting in a Lutron receiver switch at the top of the stairs and the wireless transmitter switch at the bottom of the stairs. Problem solved, it can be switched from both locations and the fixture is safe.
As an apprentice, I found this video really helpful. I've dealt with knob and tube before, though I've never seen a three-way switch in such homes. Now I do! 😊
Interesting.. They have been a code violation here in the US since before WW2 but they can also still be found in old homes that haven't yet been renovated.
I wonder how many people have been injured, burned or killed when working on this wiring method. Thank you for the completely understandable video. I've watched your other Three-Way videos and they were also very clear and concise. I even screen-shot your diagrams for safe-keeping.
I see this method in all older homes with K & T wiring. The way you draw it though, it looks like there are 2 wires joining the two 3-ways. The way I've always seen it is you connect the hot and neutral to the traveller terminals of each 3-way (same circuit). Then there is a single wire that is pulled from switch to switch that runs between the light and is connected to the common terminal of each 3-way. Some light switches will not work with this method, especially the cheap ones. This is because there is a brief short between the two traveller terminals. But can happen with any switch if it doesn't "throw" quick enough.
Wow, thank you. Much appreciated. I just posted the California 3-way video if you're interest in see that method. th-cam.com/video/AeXFe5ghmKQ/w-d-xo.html
We had that in our old (1912) family home, BUT SW1 was powered from a fuse box in the basement, and SW2 was powered from a fuse box on the second floor! Another problem occurred when we replaced one of the switches with a 3-way dimmer switch- the new dimmer switch immediately failed, it was apparently make-before-break and shorted the power ! That would not be a problem with today’s wiring methods.
I've heard of that as well. One thing that comes to mind is the silent mercury switch, somewhat common in the 1960s and '70s and were available until 1991, 3 way versions were also available. Also, an arc is more likely to form when switching off inductive loads, likely caused by HID / fluorescent fixtures with old low power factor ballasts.
I have a rental property built in 1970 that had a "broken" 3-way in the kitchen. I thought the switches failed, but after replacing them I could never get both switches to work. I always used the standard method, but now I see that possibly they were wired via the Chicago method. I'm not familiar with the California method, but I'll look into that too. Thanks for the excellent tutorial.
The California 3-way is coming this weekend or Monday at the latest. If your home was built in the 70s it's probably not a Chicago-3Way but it may be a California.
That's wild! I actually like the ingenuity of this one. I realized how it worked about 3:20 and was amazed! No place for it in modern electrical systems unfortunately.
Thanks for the upload, guess it was worth the wait. Didn't realize this was known as Chicago 3 way, I'm assuming this method was designed by the Chicago Outfit to electrocute their victims instead of using a Tommy gun, which would draw more attention to authorities vs "deadly encounter with light bulb " lol😊 Joking aside, I actually ran across this 9 years ago on a farm in Sanilac County, Michigan. The farmer, who my father has known for many years, had 3 way switch in the house and barn on different panels, barn style yardlight on a pole near the barn, and single wire from the house and barn to the yardlight, installed sometime during early 50s, when the farm got electricity. The light sometimes got super bright for a couple seconds before going out with a bright flash that cracked the bulb, and the trouble began when the farmer purchased a 240 volt air compressor and needed to move some breakers around in the barn panel to make room for a 2 pole 20 amp, and unknowingly moved the circuit for the yardlight onto the opposite phase, and putting 240 volts on the light instead of turning it OFF in one of the four switch positions. Because I was 25 at the time and volunteered to try and figure it out while just beginning my apprenticeship, and explained to the farmer what he did in the panel and how I got it working normally after scratching my head for probably a couple hours, he took me out to dinner at a very fancy Italian restaurant. I personally found that very educational and rewarding to figure out with no help from anyone or any electricians books.
That's a great story.. I remember when I first ran across one and it took me a bit to figure out what I was looking at. Any way, I was gutting out an old house and renovating it one room at a time so I was trying to keep the lighting on until the new wiring was complete. Later in life I learned that this was the Chicago 3-way.
that was common long ago, as well as using a hot only from house or outbuilding and the neutral there for return or vice versa(all disallowed and abandoned for obvious reasons). as well as requiring isolated neutral/equipment(earth)grounds at sub panels and any outbuilding within a limited distance of each other or where they have other interconnected utility lines. I thought I failed an install long ago, because I didn't run 4 wire direct burial and unbonded sub panel, only to have it pass because it was far enough away from the home and had no other interconnections. I was sweating bullets thinking about having to rent the trencher again and replace the wire as it would likely be hit trying to re-trench, even though I put it over 5' deep! why so deep? they were "talking" unknown pavement, grading changes and shallow drainage boxes/downspout drainage, so I put it deep as big 6' max depth ride on trencher would go. that was over 25 years ago... last I seen, absolutely nothing was changed at that property, other than it's now old, run down and the couple long divorced. lol
Awesome and thank you. Actually this explains why a few years ago during a gutted upgrade of the kitchen in my historic home with tube and knob, I first got zapped and then -- after fixing the mistake I must have made despite attempting to label everything -- had 240V going to a light fixture. The polarity's were flipping depending on the switch positions.
Sounds about right. If the circuits are split later and someone didn't know what they were getting into you could end up have a short circuit with 220v at the switch.
That’s an interesting method. Thanks for showing it! 26 years in the electrical trade and I have never seen this. I have seen some knob and tube wiring that was switching the grounded side on single poles.
It feels like a building that has one of these would most likely not have the fuses labeled correctly either. I cant imagine one of these setups being used in a building new enough to have breakers.
Actually ran across one of these set ups in 2015, on a farm. A three way switch in the house and barn controlled a yardlight in between, with a single stranded wire from the house and barn, to the light, switches were on different panels, house and barn. Both were 100 amp GE panels from 1977, when the 60 amp main and range fuse panels from when the farm got electricity in 1951 were replaced. Suffice it to say, this would never work with the AFCI / GFCI breakers required on virtually every 120 volt circuit in homes today, but this method was fairly common from the turn of the century, until 1950s and possibly even the 60s and 70s, on farms and the like, more often than not wired by old timers that lived during the great depression because it actually saved one wire, using 3 wires instead of 4, to switch a light between a pair of 3 way switches while having constant power for receptacle loads on both ends. My great grandparents grew up during the 1930s and would tell me stories about how their parents were forced to figure out on their own how to make the most do out of the least, as money was VERY scarce and times were tough, and I wouldn't be surprised if Grandpa wired some Chicago 3 ways on the farm they lived on for 12 ½ years, 1954 - 1967.
I had one of these neutral flip 3 ways in my 100 YO house, it took me a bit to figure out what they did. You see this in old houses where the light fixture was always hot and then neutral flip modified with wall switches. As soon as I removed the bulb, I figured out what they did. It was old knob & tube wire, so they grab any available neutral source and run it to the lower light switch to save wire and time. They took neutral from the outlet to the lower switch, cutting & into the hall stairwell neutral at the fixture. Then added a switch at the top of the stairs tied to the nearest neutral, then down to the lower stairs switch and flipped neutral(s) to the fixture and abandoning the fixture old neutral wire. You can call that a MN neutral flip.
Retired electrician. Good explanation on the Chicago 3-Way, but you get to blow up stuff with a Farmers 3-Way.....Ran into both types on a house I bought a few years ago as well as #18 speaker wire used for wiring from the switches to the can lights in the living room.
@@jeffferguson4632 The problem is, what's the breaker protecting that wire? Code now allows 10 amp breakers on #16 wire for lights only, but that phone wire could be maybe #22 or #26, and even 10 amps would be a fire danger with that.
Very cool. Here in Oklahoma, many residential electricians and service electricians know of the Arkansas 3-way and the California 3-way, but this is the first I've heard of this one. - Arkansas: in old houses where the circuit hot was brought first to the fixture box in the middle of the ceiling, a 14:2 Romex cable would be taken to the first 3W switch where only the black was used for power to the switch. (The white was not used). Then between switches, again 14:2 was strung for travelers. Then a third 14:2 was run from the second 3W switch back to the light fixture as a switchleg. (Again, the white was unused.) - California: In stairwells where the circuit is closer to the upper switch and also to the fixture than any of these three are to the bottom switch, a 12:2 Romex is run to the upper switch for hot and neutral. Then a 12:3 is run from the upper switch down two the lower switch: white phased as constant hot, red and black for travelers. In the upper switch box, the circuit hot is NOT landed on the common screw of the upper switch; it is instead spliced to the hot-phased white inside the upper switch box. Finally, a 12:2 is run from the upper switch box to the fixture: white being neutral, and black being the switchleg tied the common screw.
as a novice electrician, decades ago, i was changing out a light fixture. breaker off- lights turned off... went to strip the hot wire at fixture..... got a big zap. and guess where?? chicago
The WORST I've ever seen, was in a hallway, where they added a second switch, to create this kind of 3-way circuit, to control the hallway lights. The problem was, they used hot and neutral from two different outlets, each on separate breakers! YIKES!! Luckily, the outlets were both on the same leg of the breaker panel, or, when the switches were to turn off the light by leaving both terminals of the light hot, the light would see 240 volts, instead of off. (Of course, that would turn the lights off...PERMANENTLY!)😮
Nice! This isn't really hard to understand at all. Beats me why some people have a hard time figuring this out. It's dangerous because it both routes power from the hot lead where it's not supposed to go as well as puts the neutral lead through a switch, which means the hot lead will still be applying power to the load when it shouldn't. Thanks!
Man, I remember as an apprentice when I first started working in residential electrical, I would always come across these Chicago and California three-way wiring methods. Very exciting💥😅 times for me back then.
Well done! Bravo! I have tanfled with these before and it took me a few hours to figure it out. I have also seen solid CU MC using the metal cladding as the traveler, once. That lit me right up!
Here in mid-Atlantic we call this a Lazy Susan. Found in older homes built before they used 3 wire. It allowed you to switch the stairway lights both top and bottom, using (2) 2-wires between the switches. And yes, it does switch the neutral. Blows the breaker with a Decora switch every time. Took me decades before I actually had to troubleshoot and replace one to see how it was actually wired. Only a true old-timer could help you with this one.
Electrical Contractor in Maine since 1998 and have been in the trades for over 40 years and I have seen some things....but this Chicago 3 way is new to me. Great presentation sir, thank you. I find it shocking (pun intended) that was ever Code....with no ground available it's down right reckless to have both fixture wires hot at the same time. Treat every wire like a hot when the power is on is what I tell others.....I have lost count of the energized grounds and even metal casings I have found energized over the years.
It is a crazy method. I don't think you will find one on a home wired after the 40s maybe the 50s. This was common at one time with knob and tube wiring. The first time I saw one I was scratching my head. lol I started my career as a construction electrician and did mostly large industrial projects. I later moved into electrical engineering and retired from Texas Instruments a few years back. I started making videos and now this has become a business. lol. What part of the state do you cover?
No, because there is 0 voltage difference between the screw shell and center pin when given two neutrals or two hots FROM THE SAME PHASE. Sometimes the switches were on different circuits, such as for a yard light controlled by a switch in the house and outbuilding from different panels. If the switches were on the opposite phase, then in one of the four switch positions the light would get 240 volts. Besides the obvious increased risk of electric shock by having 120V to ground on the screw shell, having the switches on different circuits would never work in modern times because it would trip AFCIs and GFCIs, nonetheless the Chicago method was used well into the 1950s, and probably even the 60s, usually on farms.
Once you wired the travelers I knew how it was going to work. I have not seen this method in practice however I have only worked on a few knob and tube houses.
I was always told this was a "California 3-way" and all the literature I read in school also refered to it as such. Also, I have heard it called a neutral switched 3-way. Good demo to explain how it actually works! Ive never thought about it ive always just fixed them or rewired them when i see them.
Chicago Sparky here. It's standard practice, at least with the me and the firms I've worked with, to fix these when we come across them. Another advantage of everything being in EMT.
@@BackyardMaine indeed. That's why it's code here. When the codes were originally drafted there were a lot of electrical component manufacturing in the area. Another example of working the economy into building code.
@@glee21012 true, but once installed it does make any service work and rewiring so much easier than NM cable does. And you have the extra ground of the grounded system with all that metal touching. The EMT also protects the wires, unlike NM which doesn't at all.
Wow! I wonder who came up with that arrangement? 😂😂 I'm glad I don't do work in Chicago! I have to say... in my 40+ years of doing electrical work (primarily industrial & commercial in SoCal/west coast & Texas) I've never come across this (fortunately, I guess!). Many years ago, I came across an old residence (that had been re-purposed to a Law office), in which I was contracted to do a lighting upgrade (the rooms all had old, 8' ballasted fluorescents)... until I discoverd that it still had knob-and-tube in the attic space - and it was still being utilized! Those conductors were all running VERY warm! That job ended up taking MUCH longer (and, costing substantially more) than what was originally quoted, as I had to [basically] rewire the entire place. Fortunately, the walls were old-school, real "bat & plaster" construction, so no fire-blocking to preventing the pulling-in of new/modern conductors. What a PIA! 😂
Sound like a few projects I have worked in the past. Spent most of my career as an industrial electrician and finished it up in electrical engineering. When I was younger I use to do a lot of side work and thats really where my residential experience came from.
Great explanation, thank you! Looking forward to the explanation of the "California Three-way". Haven't heard of that one before watching your channel.
When I first began in the early 80's I had to remove tube & wire from an old house & was amazed at the absurdity of how that place was wired- it seemed like there should have been way more fires from that type of system & yet it wasn't so bad that an impetus was generated to ban that stuff outright... CODE upgraded eventually so that you could not install that system any longer but did not require people to remove it unless/until there was an upgrade... there are still millions of homes across the USA that have that wire still functioning today... scary stuff!
Why diagnosis on older buildings is difficult. I used to carry an extension cord with the end stripped and the hot wire capped. It’s a lot easier to test with a multimeter with known good reference wires. I found switched neutrals, 240v in a lighting box, and other homeowner hacks over the years.
I learned of this when I was a kid. I replaced a switch for my Mom. announced that we would do a smoke test, and smoked did come out when I turned the breaker on.
This one is definitely a new one for me. I can honestly say I've been in lots of homes with knob and tubing and haven't seen this. I am glad you showed this and looking forward to seeing everything from here on out. Great teacher and you earned my subscription tonight. Stay safe and keep making these great videos.
Not exactly what I was expecting when I saw the title "Chicago 3-way". But, logically, it makes sense. Unconventional that that light fixture will always have at least 1 hot leg I mean, it works.
Since the "Chicago 3-way" requires running separate conductors from the lamp holder to both switches, it must be an uncommon sight in buildings wired with sheathed 2C wiring or newer. The old wiring I've dealt with is sheathed in cardboard on top of the rubber insulation and is quite a chore to strip compared to modern sheathing where you can use the ground as a rip-cord.
I've never seen such a thing. Seems totally insane. The idea of a neutral being switched just can't fit in my brain. But, now you're making me wonder if my understanding of how it should work~~only switching hots~~is correct. I am definitely going to have to watch that next video.
Thanks for posting this, I've been patiently waiting for this since you reply to me on another video. I believe Iran into this about 50 years ago at a relatives house , if I recall correctly there was power to the light fixture but it wouldn't light. I managed to change a faulty switch and got the light working but never really understood (or cared) about what was going on.
Seems like Chicago was always intent on burning itself to the ground. Dang! In 50 yrs of doing electrical work I thought I had seen it all. I've even worked on a number of old homes with knob n tube wiring and never come across this one. In fact, never heard of it, but thanks for the info.
@@davepowder4020 which would be ironic, because this method was also commonly used on farms until at least the 1950s, maybe even the 60s in some areas of the country, for switching a yardlight from the house and barn, with power on both ends and often a single wire overhead from the house, and barn/outbuilding, to the light, fed from different circuits. I actually ran across this, on a farm in Sanilac County michigan. According to the owner the house was built in 1904, but didn't have electricity until 1951, and the yardlight was installed about a year later when the new barn was finished, the original barn suffered a fire started by a gas lantern, in 1951 not long before electricity would arrive.
I subbed for an electrician in my early twenties and we’d come across things like this on old work. My background was in solid state electronics as a kid just for a hobby but I had a good understanding of electricity, electrical circuits, and semi conductors because of this. My boss had 15 years as an electrician and 8 years as his own private company. You’d be amazed at what a lot of electricians don’t know beyond basic simple circuit breakers/switch/outlet scenarios. I remember him looking at a three phase diagram like he was reading mandarin. And another time showing him how to wire a DPDT relay to reverse polarity on a projector screen. You’d swear he thought it was witchcraft lol. Point being, just because you have a degree or certification, doesn’t mean you know what you should know, and someone without doesn’t mean they don’t know….
It takes years of experience. I worked in large industrial setting for most of my career and eventually because an electrical engineer. I'm retired now.
Hours... it took me hours of monkeying to try and figure this out. I have knob and tube wiring and we were redoing the basement with a 3 way switch for the lighting. It was a good thing that i labeled each wire and the original switches. I identified neutral and hot and wired it like it should be. I then went to the other switch and what i had initially thought was hot and neutral were reversed. After hours of trying to get it wired i put the old switches back in... got the circuit to work like it used to and then replaced them with new dimable switches and wired them the same way the old switches were wired. Thankfully i wont have to worry much about the hot light when it is off because the wires are all in a junction box with a low voltage transformer which powers the lowvoltage LED puck lights.
I've never come across the Chicago method. However, we bought a 72 mobile home and I was replacing the porch light. Keep in mind I always kill the breaker. She also wanted to change the light switch to one of those decorator styles. When I got to the old switch someone wired it to switch the white wires instead of the black. I found it odd. I wired it correctly and all is fine now. Also, there was not any other light switch wired to white except that one. Lesson is always turn the breaker off.
I've been an electrician for almost 40 years, I have never seen ANYTHING like this and I've worked in a lot of knob and tube homes(near Philadelphia region), glad I never came across this. It makes sense for functionality, but WOW! Lutron Caseta with Picos is an easy fix.
I have only come across a few in my 40 years in the trade. It took a minute to figure it out the first time. No internet back then so didn't know what I found. lol
I owned a 1906 house in Evanston, a Northshore suburb of Chicago. Still had gas pipes in the ceiling from the old gaslight days, and mostly knob-and-tube wiring. Learned about the Carter 3-way when I blew up an X-10 remote switch in the foyer. I think I know how this kind of wiring came about. The chandelier in the dining room (not a 3-way) had a single wire running from the wall switch to the fixture, then the neutral ran down across the ceiling to the other side of the room to a baseboard outlet! If you wanted to add a second switch then Carter method feels like a problem solver. Remember the walls are all wooden lathes with horse hair mixed into the plaster, so cutting holes in the ceiling is an expensive proposition. Prying off the baseboard and fishing the wall up to an old-work box for a switch with a second wire is easy-peasy.
Im just a diy guy but have run into this a few times helping friends debug their houses. I always assumed these live off bulbs were caused by other diy people and i would remove the second switch. Im truly surprised that professional electricians believed this was ok. You might also suggest putting a gfci outlet at the root of all two wire circuits - in case theres a partial short.
Also another thing - when the line is pretty long different potential can occur between "two" phases in switch so spark will happen inside the switch which in turn will wear off the switch much faster. But it was with incandescent light bulbs, not sure if it will happen with LEDs
3-way and 4-way switches here in the US run on single phase 120v circuits. There is no second phase to arc over. The potential difference between the hot and neutral is only 120v and it takes quite a lot to get that to jump the contacts of a switch.
@@BackyardMaine sorry for confusion, i've put two in quotes meaning it is the same phase but due to long line something was happening, probably a little phase shift. I was on one object with that issue and when the same phase met at switch it produced a noticeable spark and one switch started to malfunction, so we rebuilt the system
I see these in every house I’ve rehabbed. I’m from St. Louis, but any house that is a 2 wire with no ground (50s or earlier) was wired this way. I moved to Omaha and same thing here. It is totally confusing and I’ve been shocked a few times thinking the power was off when I turned the light switch off. I turn power off now.
Honestly everybody talks about the danger of the way things used to be wired, but I have a way to go about it that has kept me from getting killed. 1) Assume everything is hot until proven otherwise 2) Don't touch anything 3) Avoid being grounded 4) If something must be touched, do not hold with both hands As a welder, this also works pretty well for me. I used to get shocked constantly, until I decided to not just let gloves give me a false sense of security. Now when welding at home, I don't even change welding rods without either standing on something that is not grounded, or setting the electrode down and picking it back up with the stinger rather than holding the electrode in one hand and the stinger in the other. I also turn off breakers or unplug lamps before changing lightbulbs if it requires removing a physically broken bulb. I have been shocked countless times, most of which were inadvertent. Every time, it was avoidable. You cannot get shocked unless you allow yourself to make a circuit, plain and simple. If you can't understand that, you're in the wrong line of work.
Very interesting. You will never find a circuit like that in the UK. That looks all so over complicated for no real advantage. Really interesting to see how different wiring is in other parts of the globe. Thanks for the lesson.
I ran into an outlet with both sides wired to hot. It had a freezer plugged in and I've no idea how it worked. The utility room that was in got rewired with a new 30 amp circuit. Why 30 amps? Because a couple of 220V heaters had been removed, freeing up space in the breaker box when a mini-split heat pump was installed. I put in a new double breaker, 20 amp 220V in the middle for the heat pump with the outer pair being 30 amp. I removed the connection between the outer toggles to use them as independent 110V circuits.
I ran into something like this when working on my house, the power being supplied to the fixture and then on to the switch, which means there is power at the fixture even if the swirch is off. Got rid of that as soon as I could. Also, I never mix lights and outlets on the same circuit. When I'm done, every room has its own 20 amp plug circuit and lights are on a separate circuit though sometimes one lighting circuit may be shared by two adjoining rooms since lighting power demand is low. That way, no popped breaker resulting from an outlet results in no lights in that room or anywhere else. I dont care whats correct or allowed, I'm not doing it any other way.
I first encountered a setup like this in a house I had bought that was built in 1954, although it didn't use 3-way switches, it used similar methods. They had wired the outside porch light to be permanently on and use a sensor with the same wiring and circuit as the kitchen sink light and switch that controlled the kitchen light, outside light and "GFCI" plug in the same double wallplate. I wanted the light on the switch. I had everything off, yet got zapped by the neutral wires of all things. I also had the circuit breaker trip once I got everything hooked up correctly. I found out they had wired it like this where another switch on the opposite side of the kitchen, that didn't even control the light, put power through the neutral. I disconnected everything in all those circuits, used a wand toner to isolate each wire, and wired everything correctly. I still had a random hot neutral, but it wasn't in the circuit and I couldn't figure out where it went, so I capped it off, taped it off, labeled it, and stuck it back in the junction box. Poor wiring technique could have had bad consequences for someone who didn't identify it.
Back in 2005 was doing custodial/ maintenance work for my church's campus. The original wiring was done back in the '40's in the old dairy barn. It was patched together with mineral insulation and K&T. But it had one of the three way switches that just about drove me crazy. Because one switch was at the back door of the shop building 150' away and the other in the barn. On and it was run underground in 3/4" steel conduit. Like to never figured that one out.
I had a similar situation where I was trying to turn off power to an old barn that was being torn down. Power came into the home and there was the main panel and two sub-panels. I would not fine the two pole 30A feed to the barn. I finally cut the main to the house and it still didn't take it down. Then I was thinking they tied into the meter. Nope not there either. I finally figured out that it was fed from the house across the street. I guess that was part of the farm at one time. lol
Video Links here>> California 3-Way - th-cam.com/video/AeXFe5ghmKQ/w-d-xo.html Standard, Dead End and Single poles Switches here>> th-cam.com/video/B6gfI73Tvg8/w-d-xo.html
Retired Electrician, Worked around the Washington DC area and fixed a few of these in older homes. We called them "Lazy Susans." Met my wife on a service call to repair one, I was the third electrician she called, everything was pulled apart for the remodel. First two walked away insisting there was no way that it had worked before. I bet her dinner that I could fix it in 20 minutes (4 gang box of switches). We had Pizza - she paid.
That's a great story my friend.. It pays to be smart.
Great story. Congratulations to you both !
That's probably the most awesome "How we met" story I ever heard
I mainly do low-voltage stuff, but occasionally I'll install smart light switches. Also in the DC area. This old wiring method explains so much...I've seen a handful of switches with this unfamiliar wiring which I had assumed was just improperly installed.
Tripped a breaker when testing a new smart dimmer switch once, and from that point on I no longer touch anything that isn't wired according to modern code. I just tell them to call an electrician.
Another oddity with older homes is the doorbell transformer. I've seen them in some very creative locations. In older homes they're sometimes tucked away behind a random wall somewhere, and the only way to access them is to cut out the drywall.
Love this story, I’ve been an electrician for 45yrs in Washington DC and Lazy Susan or also called Hot and Lazy are extremely common here in almost any non updated house. I know of about a dozen different configurations depending on two or three floor homes.
We bought an old house in 1981 and I, a young guy knowing the rudiments of residential knob and tube, was rewiring a 3-way on our stairs with romex when I discovered a light fixture off but both terminals hot. After calling my father, we tried to draw it out but failed. Then we called my grandfather, a longtime lineman for the regional power company. He drew it out for us and, as I remember, it was just as shown here. I've wired up numerous houses over the years but have never run into it again. Thanks for a great video.
Thank you! Awesome story.. Thanks for sharing.
The light bulb just came on. Pun intended.
My house was built in 33, the upper floor still has some knob and tube until I replace all the plaster and lathe.
I couldn't figure out what the hell was going on with the hallway light. Now I know.
It was 2 wire three way when built, but the automotive mechanic that owned it before me and did the electrical conversion from K&T to lumex replaced one of the switches with a standard 2 way, and disconnected the upstairs switch that was connected to the K&T. Wasn't the only live wire I found hidden behind a drywall patch.
1981 and you didn't just run some Romex? Cheap much? You do realize that knob and tube is the same method that made Victorian homes so combustible.....I wouldn't sleep one night in a house with this type of wiring because I've been in a house fire before. In spite of having been an adrenaline junkie into my 30s, that's just too much risk. Would rather go base jumping. The only time I actually died was the house fire, where I was clinically dead from smoke inhalation for about 3 minutes. Yes, I saw the bright light, was floating away. Then I said, 'fuck no!' and clawed my way back to life. Pretty ironic considering the shit life I've had. The fact is that if I didn't have the survival gene, I probably wouldn't be here in the first place. Genetics is one hell of a mindfuck.
@@Lurch-Bot He said "rewiring a 3-way on our stairs with Romex"
@@Lurch-Botbizarre comment
This was not the video I was looking for when searching "Chicago 3 way", but I watched anyways.
I have seen the video you were looking for. You definitely should seek safety here.
@@clsanchez77 I like to live.... Dangerously.
@@fredtaylor9792Your lifestyle is just shocking
@@walterbrunswick Things that make you go ohm.
I'm sure it was equally shocking. Personally, I'm familiar with both types of Chicago 3-Way, having grown up in the Midwest.
This could not have been explained clearer or better. Nice work!
Thanks so much.. I'll be posting the California 3-way this weekend.
Retired electrician. I have run across several of these 3 ways. Usually they don't have power run between the switches. Instead, switch 1 gets power from receptacle 1 and switch 2 gets power from receptacle 2. This worked OKish when we had single phase 2 wire services, but when you upgrade to 3 wire 2 phase electric services, you could have the switches on different phases and send 240 volts to the bulb. I knew this as a farmer's 3 way. I learned about them early in my career and made money fixing them when other guys were confused.
I thought a farmer's 3-way involved a sheep.
@@othername1000I think this method involves goat f*ckery.
I heard that it's two sheep.
@@othername1000 and then of course you've got the Alabama 3-way
Yes that works too as long as the second receptacle is on the same circuit. But as you found out, it's a bit of an issue when upgrading circuitry.
The same circuit was also used in Germany (of course it is also not allowed anymore nowadays). We call it the "Hamburger Wechselschaltung" Which would translate to the "Hamburg three way". I find it funny that you also name that after a city. But here it was also not only done in Hamburg. I remember whitnessing my Grandpa getting an electric shock from one of those things when he was changing a lightbulb which was turned off at the time.
In france we call it the german 3 way "va et vien allemand".
In Hungary some electricians call it takarékváltó kapcsolás which mean cheap alternative switching.
@@zaxmaxlax, were you and the German dude really hoping for something a little.... Electrifying in a different way, when encountering a big city three-way? At least it did shock your pants off, lol.
You're absolutely right....
How ironic, "Hamburger Wechselschaltung" is also the name of my favorite German film.
About 15 years ago I ran into something similar and my boss at the time got mad at me for not being able to figure it out and make the repair. I've been through school in both the Navy and an accredited DOL-certified vocational school and now I'm a licensed electrical contractor and I'm still baffled lol. Great explanation through and I guess it's good that I dont understand it because its a dangerous way to wire lighting and receptacle circuits. Great video!!
Heh. See my comment from a minute ago.
With the stuff I've seen in old homes here in Chicago, I'm amazed that half the city isn't on fire.
Thank you..
@@stringlarson1247 Remember, they blamed it on a cow. When in fact, Mrs. O'Leary's Husband had just wired a new light in the barn.
Hey. You're not alone with things like that at times. I do a lot of machine requiring and do most of my own diagrams. I've come across stuff from time to time that just doesn't sink in for quite a while. For myself, all I can do if it's something I need to do is have several things to do it with, including self made videos. Funny, but once I started making the videos, I never needed them on a site. Not for myself nor anyone I was trying to show. Go figure, and much continued success. Sounds like you more than earned it. Thank you for your service to our country!
@@stringlarson1247 Chicago Fire 2 - Electrical wiring boogaloo
I work in Chicago, I've run into this once every year. It amazes me that this problem is still out there.
It was common a long time ago and is actually all over the country.
I'm amazed that knob n tube wiring is still out there.
Now it's easy to see why cook county and Chicago have some of the strictest electrical codes
Lower Alabama and northern Florida have this problem. Particularly with homes pre 1950. Bubbah usually has a hand in it if you could imagine
I’m a 20 year residential electrician on Long Island. I’ve seen this 3 way twice. Very rare around here.
In 30 years of doing electric work I've 8:02 only seen this one time in an old knob and tube home we were rewiring. My boss at the time called it a switched neutral 3 way and showed us how it actually worked. Very cool to see you describe it with such great detail.
This is KINDA ingenious in that it makes the XOR operation by inverting the lampholder polarity for the two ON states and double-hotting or double-neutraling it for the OFF states. Back when I studied the topic, this was not even given as an option. We were taught straight off to make the "hallway switch" by wiring hot to one switch, connecting the switches through the travelers, then taking the lamp hot from the other switch. And in a 230V country I can readily see why this was not even an option.
I've watched a lot of three-way videos, and this was by far the most informative!
Thank you! I have three more coming. The California 3-way this weekend. Stay tuned.
How many of them involved watching your wife?
When I was a kid puzzling out how electrical systems worked (based on my experience of wiring up a train set), this is what I came up with for the 'magic' of three way switches. I thought it's how they all worked until I came across my first standard three-way, which was very confusing to me at the time based on my Chicago assumptions from childhood.
Did the train move in reverse?
I’ll never forget my first experience as a young apprentice. Homeowner already took it all apart to replace switches and marked nothing. I was unable to figure I out because I was trying to think competently on something that isn’t competent. I assumed the homeowner didn’t realize that the 3-way never worked properly. I later questioned some old timers that explained the dangerous system to me. Glad they did because I’ve run into many of them. Two of them that stand out:
1) this setup with a 3rd switch location (using a 4-way switch)
2) the two 3-ways were on different circuits, both on the same phase. It would be pure luck on a service upgrade or panel change to get them on the same phase
Great Video! Many have never seen or heard of this!
Finally, an answer to why I always got zapped as a little kid, visiting my grandparent's 1940s vintage home in south suburban Chicagoland. Usually happened when getting out of the bath and flipping the switch with a wet hand.
I bought a house in 2011 and had a lighting circuit that was wired Chicago style. Had it fixed immediately. Frankly, I'm surprised the inspector passed it but I live in AZ where building and zoning regulations are just a serving suggestion.
This principle is used in some bidirectional power converters, as well as solid-state on-off controllable AC switches - unlike triacs which you cannot turn off before the next zero crossing. Simple, yet effective.
It's also used for DC reversible speed controllers where it's called an H-Bridge.
H bridge cicuits for DC motor control also, made with pair of relays for stop start and reversing.
Wish you’d been my apprenticeship instructor 45yrs ago. Great explanation! 👍🏻
Wow, thanks! I love hearing comments like this. I'll be posting the California 3-way this weekend.
Control by switching the neutral is one sure way to get somebody hurt. Never knew this was allowed and even worse that it still exists. Thanks for excellent explanation.
Thank you! It's been banned for a long time but there are a lot of old building out there where it still exists.
This reminds me of lamp cord replacements. I've seen several with the polarity switched, leaving the screw shell hot all the time, including when the lamp is off. Always good to do a continuity check to make sure the screw shell is connected to the wide blade on the plug.
Modern lamp cord has one identified conductor. The identified conductor is supposed to be the neutral and wired to the shell and the wide blade of the plug.
@@nooneyouknowhere6148 That is correct. But on some cords, especially clear cords, it can be next to impossible to see. Sometimes it's just easier to stick the prongs of your ohm meter on it.
@@michaelallen5505 normally the identified conductor has ridges on it that you can feel.
I was using Bridgeport mill at work, and someone long ago had added a gooseneck lamp to it and bolted it to the machone, but the lamp had a household type brown 2 wire lamp cord and non polarized plug, so the stupid thing could wind up plugged in either way and it ws always being unplugged and plugged back in later if someone needed the outlet and no one was using the mill.
SO I go to use the mill, turned on the lamp which had a metal shade on the bulb, and I went to adjust the lamp's position and the moment I moved it BOOM!! it shorted out! SO my hand was on the metal goose neck and I was leaning over the mill bed a little to reach it, of course the mill bed is bare unpainted steel, but fortunately I wasnt touching it!
I checked the lamp and discovered the plug wasnt even polarized! It had been like that for years and the crappy thin paper used in the lamo sockets back then to separate the metal shell from the rest and cover the terminals became brittle and moving the lamo was all it took.
I re-wired that crappy lamp properly.
We have lamps from the 40's, 50's and 60's. All the plugs have same-size prongs (non-polarized) also really old outlets were also non-polarized, as both slots were the same size. I'm thinking polarized plugs started coming out in the 70's.
I thought I have seen many funky things in my 30 years of electrical work, but this Chicago method has now gone on my top 10 things to look out for.
Retired electrician, mystery solved. I have run across this 30 years ago in Denver, really never understood til now. It's always bothered me that I didn't understand, GOOD JOB!
Happy to hear it helped. I'll be post a video on the California 3-Way on Monday.
Thanks for covering this. We ran into this a while back and I've been struggling to figure out how to fix it.
My father showed me this one when I was a boy. He didn't call Chicago style he had another local name for it but he said don't do this thing.
Saved me some jolts over the years just not assuming a light fixture is safe because it's off. He showed me the right way a couple of years later when he put one in our new house. Ran into it again in my apartment. The guy who did originally the wiring was a friend hes gone now but he warned me. He said it was up to code. For about 1970 that is so be careful putting up the kitchen light. And sure enough it was hot even switched off.
He also said the plumbing looks even weirder but that's never been an issue. Basically it's an old building from about 1880 that was pretty much gutted in the 60s and the upstairs turned into 7 bachelor apartments.
Most of the work was good he said, and I can see it was but it was done on a budget and they did some odd things. The thing to watch for is because the place does not have separate power for each apartment things like the breaker that controls my outlets in the sitting are will also turn off the outlets in my neighbors bedroom on the other side of the wall.
That's ok though. Much rather have power off where I don't expect it than power on.
Probably called it the carter system.
I figured out there was probably a way to make a 3 way with only 2 conductors but seing it explained so clearly is quite cool. Thank you.
Awesome thank you!
First, thank you for your service, fellow Air Force.
Electrician for 40 years, never heard of this dangerous situation.
Thank you! And thanks for your service as well. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
The only reason someone would ever do this, is to add a second switch to a 2-wire system, that was originally intended for a single switch. This is the only way it can be done, without tearing out the walls, to replace the "Romex" with "Triex", to do it right. (I STILL wouldn't do it) Even with that said, each switch needs a neutral and hot, and, a line needs to be run from each switch to the light. If you have to run those lines, I don't see how that's any easier, than to run the 3-conductor "Triex" wire, allowing it to be done to code.
@@vincentrobinette1507 They don't use romex in Chicago though. So that couldnt have been the reason it got it's name.
I’ve been an electrician for 27 years. The town where I live started getting electricity in the early 20’s, so I’ve ran across and serviced some knob and tube wiring. In lots of those they switched the neutral instead of the “hot” in all light fixtures. I would try to tell people to always take the fuse out or pull the main block out if they changed a light bulb. Thankfully, there’s less and less of it now. The old knob and tube was really good for its time, all the connections were soldered and taped. They took pride in it, and those connections last a lifetime and then some. I have never seen this type of three way before, but someone was pretty smart to figure that out!
This explains a lot of wacky issues I’ve had with my 1921 house. Another peculiarity I’ve seen in my house was fused neutrals, I.e. both hot and neutral going through their own separate fuses. Not all the fixtures and receptacles on a hot fuse would return through the same neutral fuse.
I found this chicago 3 way in a 1920s farm house here in Denver. the home owner changed the switches but got the wires mixed up. I figured it out and got it working so my recommendation. if you change the switches pay attention to where the terminals are on the old switches and on the new one(especially the common).
I work on many older homes in Chicago. I am currently (pun intended) ripping into my 1914 home with layers of insanely bad wiring.
I've got one 'circuit' somewhat like this. I've got a degree in EE, and figuring this place out is insane. I've got a Klien ET450 tracer and am shocked (yes, pun) at where someone(s) ran lines over the years.
Well, good to know you figuring it all out and fixing it. I spent the last 10 years of my career employed as an electrical engineer for Texas Instruments.
@@BackyardMaine Cool. Like everyone, I started with TI chips on the breadboard.
I started writing assembly code for Intel 8051s in '84 and spent the next 38 years designing and writing software. A good chunk of that was working on RTOS/embedded systems with the hardware/chip 'guys'. Fascinating stuff.
Ironically, I was just looking at TI's website after Cruz voted against the 'chips' act to check out their fab plants in TX.
@@stringlarson1247 I was the facilities electrical Engineer here at the TI FAB in Southern Maine. (MFAB). I have been to the Texas facilities many times, both the in Dallas and RFAB in Richardson TX. I'm retired now making youtube videos in my spare time.
@@BackyardMaine
That's awesome buddy I live close to the old stafford Texas ti plant
My aunt started in clean room w plant opened and retired just before it shut down as director of comm of some sorts- ann miller
in the 90s looking into the clean room and playing w their demo wafer chip movement training program
I can remember the president talking in 95 or so saying we've just recently released more info on our printing system that could print a map of cont us states on the size of your thumbnail
Man it was a cool place to visit especially when younger
Always had a great fitness and rec center too
Good ole days
@@taylorj9920 Yes its cool working for a company on the leading edge of technology. It's crazy what they can do now.
That was an excellent video and explanation. I came across this after the home owner had dismantled the switches during his remodel. The home owner insisted that the three-way switch worked and I, of course, didn't believe him. I tried to understand how this three-way could have worked but failed miserably. I ended up rewiring the switches but I was always baffled by that scenario. Thank you for enlightening me after like 25 years. lol. This was a 1940s house in Queens, NYC.
Great explanation! I ran across this setup in an early 1900’s house with k&t wiring here in NJ and couldn’t believe what I was seeing. I wasn’t comfortable leaving it like that but it was controlling the stairway lights at my buddy’s house and it had to work from both locations. I ended up putting in a Lutron receiver switch at the top of the stairs and the wireless transmitter switch at the bottom of the stairs. Problem solved, it can be switched from both locations and the fixture is safe.
As an apprentice, I found this video really helpful. I've dealt with knob and tube before, though I've never seen a three-way switch in such homes. Now I do! 😊
Glad it was helpful! Good luck on your career as an electrician. It's a great trade and good electricians are in high demand.
These can be occasionally found also in Finland, mostly in older housing. We call them Russian stairway switches, among many other names.
Interesting.. They have been a code violation here in the US since before WW2 but they can also still be found in old homes that haven't yet been renovated.
I wonder how many people have been injured, burned or killed when working on this wiring method. Thank you for the completely understandable video. I've watched your other Three-Way videos and they were also very clear and concise. I even screen-shot your diagrams for safe-keeping.
Thank you my friend.
I see this method in all older homes with K & T wiring. The way you draw it though, it looks like there are 2 wires joining the two 3-ways. The way I've always seen it is you connect the hot and neutral to the traveller terminals of each 3-way (same circuit). Then there is a single wire that is pulled from switch to switch that runs between the light and is connected to the common terminal of each 3-way. Some light switches will not work with this method, especially the cheap ones. This is because there is a brief short between the two traveller terminals. But can happen with any switch if it doesn't "throw" quick enough.
So far, this is your most important video I have watched. Thank you.
Wow, thank you. Much appreciated. I just posted the California 3-way video if you're interest in see that method. th-cam.com/video/AeXFe5ghmKQ/w-d-xo.html
We had that in our old (1912) family home, BUT SW1 was powered from a fuse box in the basement, and SW2 was powered from a fuse box on the second floor! Another problem occurred when we replaced one of the switches with a 3-way dimmer switch- the new dimmer switch immediately failed, it was apparently make-before-break and shorted the power ! That would not be a problem with today’s wiring methods.
I heard that with certain types of switches there is a possibility of an arc followed by short circuit in a switch during switching.
I've heard of that as well. One thing that comes to mind is the silent mercury switch, somewhat common in the 1960s and '70s and were available until 1991, 3 way versions were also available.
Also, an arc is more likely to form when switching off inductive loads, likely caused by HID / fluorescent fixtures with old low power factor ballasts.
Very informative! Not an electrician, but I’m often asked to change switches and receptacles for building maintenance. Thanks for the video.
My pleasure. Thanks for watching.
Great 3way videos. Clear and simple schematics/drawings focusing on the theory of operation removing the noise of cables, boxes, and wire nuts.
Glad it was helpful!
This is both brilliant and kind of terrifying! If I ever find myself a homeowner again, I'll be sure to be aware of this setup!
I have a rental property built in 1970 that had a "broken" 3-way in the kitchen. I thought the switches failed, but after replacing them I could never get both switches to work. I always used the standard method, but now I see that possibly they were wired via the Chicago method. I'm not familiar with the California method, but I'll look into that too. Thanks for the excellent tutorial.
The California 3-way is coming this weekend or Monday at the latest. If your home was built in the 70s it's probably not a Chicago-3Way but it may be a California.
Had these in Michigan too, so not just a Chicago thing. Have a Sears reprint of an older “Home Wiring” how to booklet and it shows this setup as well.
Yes, it was done all over the country..
That's wild! I actually like the ingenuity of this one. I realized how it worked about 3:20 and was amazed! No place for it in modern electrical systems unfortunately.
Thanks for the upload, guess it was worth the wait. Didn't realize this was known as Chicago 3 way, I'm assuming this method was designed by the Chicago Outfit to electrocute their victims instead of using a Tommy gun, which would draw more attention to authorities vs "deadly encounter with light bulb " lol😊
Joking aside, I actually ran across this 9 years ago on a farm in Sanilac County, Michigan. The farmer, who my father has known for many years, had 3 way switch in the house and barn on different panels, barn style yardlight on a pole near the barn, and single wire from the house and barn to the yardlight, installed sometime during early 50s, when the farm got electricity. The light sometimes got super bright for a couple seconds before going out with a bright flash that cracked the bulb, and the trouble began when the farmer purchased a 240 volt air compressor and needed to move some breakers around in the barn panel to make room for a 2 pole 20 amp, and unknowingly moved the circuit for the yardlight onto the opposite phase, and putting 240 volts on the light instead of turning it OFF in one of the four switch positions.
Because I was 25 at the time and volunteered to try and figure it out while just beginning my apprenticeship, and explained to the farmer what he did in the panel and how I got it working normally after scratching my head for probably a couple hours, he took me out to dinner at a very fancy Italian restaurant. I personally found that very educational and rewarding to figure out with no help from anyone or any electricians books.
That's a great story.. I remember when I first ran across one and it took me a bit to figure out what I was looking at. Any way, I was gutting out an old house and renovating it one room at a time so I was trying to keep the lighting on until the new wiring was complete. Later in life I learned that this was the Chicago 3-way.
that was common long ago, as well as using a hot only from house or outbuilding and the neutral there for return or vice versa(all disallowed and abandoned for obvious reasons).
as well as requiring isolated neutral/equipment(earth)grounds at sub panels and any outbuilding within a limited distance of each other or where they have other interconnected utility lines. I thought I failed an install long ago, because I didn't run 4 wire direct burial and unbonded sub panel, only to have it pass because it was far enough away from the home and had no other interconnections. I was sweating bullets thinking about having to rent the trencher again and replace the wire as it would likely be hit trying to re-trench, even though I put it over 5' deep!
why so deep? they were "talking" unknown pavement, grading changes and shallow drainage boxes/downspout drainage, so I put it deep as big 6' max depth ride on trencher would go.
that was over 25 years ago... last I seen, absolutely nothing was changed at that property, other than it's now old, run down and the couple long divorced. lol
Awesome and thank you. Actually this explains why a few years ago during a gutted upgrade of the kitchen in my historic home with tube and knob, I first got zapped and then -- after fixing the mistake I must have made despite attempting to label everything -- had 240V going to a light fixture. The polarity's were flipping depending on the switch positions.
Sounds about right. If the circuits are split later and someone didn't know what they were getting into you could end up have a short circuit with 220v at the switch.
That’s an interesting method. Thanks for showing it! 26 years in the electrical trade and I have never seen this. I have seen some knob and tube wiring that was switching the grounded side on single poles.
It's not common but they are still out there in old homes that haven't had the electrical updated.
It feels like a building that has one of these would most likely not have the fuses labeled correctly either. I cant imagine one of these setups being used in a building new enough to have breakers.
Actually ran across one of these set ups in 2015, on a farm. A three way switch in the house and barn controlled a yardlight in between, with a single stranded wire from the house and barn, to the light, switches were on different panels, house and barn. Both were 100 amp GE panels from 1977, when the 60 amp main and range fuse panels from when the farm got electricity in 1951 were replaced. Suffice it to say, this would never work with the AFCI / GFCI breakers required on virtually every 120 volt circuit in homes today, but this method was fairly common from the turn of the century, until 1950s and possibly even the 60s and 70s, on farms and the like, more often than not wired by old timers that lived during the great depression because it actually saved one wire, using 3 wires instead of 4, to switch a light between a pair of 3 way switches while having constant power for receptacle loads on both ends. My great grandparents grew up during the 1930s and would tell me stories about how their parents were forced to figure out on their own how to make the most do out of the least, as money was VERY scarce and times were tough, and I wouldn't be surprised if Grandpa wired some Chicago 3 ways on the farm they lived on for 12 ½ years, 1954 - 1967.
I had one of these neutral flip 3 ways in my 100 YO house, it took me a bit to figure out what they did. You see this in old houses where the light fixture was always hot and then neutral flip modified with wall switches. As soon as I removed the bulb, I figured out what they did. It was old knob & tube wire, so they grab any available neutral source and run it to the lower light switch to save wire and time. They took neutral from the outlet to the lower switch, cutting & into the hall stairwell neutral at the fixture. Then added a switch at the top of the stairs tied to the nearest neutral, then down to the lower stairs switch and flipped neutral(s) to the fixture and abandoning the fixture old neutral wire. You can call that a MN neutral flip.
Retired electrician. Good explanation on the Chicago 3-Way, but you get to blow up stuff with a Farmers 3-Way.....Ran into both types on a house I bought a few years ago as well as #18 speaker wire used for wiring from the switches to the can lights in the living room.
Hell I use phone wire for small loads. Gotta respect the ampere rating of your conductors and use what's appropriate!
@@jeffferguson4632 The problem is, what's the breaker protecting that wire? Code now allows 10 amp breakers on #16 wire for lights only, but that phone wire could be maybe #22 or #26, and even 10 amps would be a fire danger with that.
I'm rewiring all the circuits in my house and your channel has been very helpful! thanks!
Great to hear! Thank you..
im also doing this and is how i ended up here. good luck on your projects!
@@kennymendonca2854 godspeed my friend
Very cool. Here in Oklahoma, many residential electricians and service electricians know of the Arkansas 3-way and the California 3-way, but this is the first I've heard of this one.
- Arkansas: in old houses where the circuit hot was brought first to the fixture box in the middle of the ceiling, a 14:2 Romex cable would be taken to the first 3W switch where only the black was used for power to the switch. (The white was not used). Then between switches, again 14:2 was strung for travelers. Then a third 14:2 was run from the second 3W switch back to the light fixture as a switchleg. (Again, the white was unused.)
- California: In stairwells where the circuit is closer to the upper switch and also to the fixture than any of these three are to the bottom switch, a 12:2 Romex is run to the upper switch for hot and neutral. Then a 12:3 is run from the upper switch down two the lower switch: white phased as constant hot, red and black for travelers. In the upper switch box, the circuit hot is NOT landed on the common screw of the upper switch; it is instead spliced to the hot-phased white inside the upper switch box. Finally, a 12:2 is run from the upper switch box to the fixture: white being neutral, and black being the switchleg tied the common screw.
Interesting.. I made a video on the California 3-way as well but I have not seen the Arkansas 3-way.
I have not seen a Chicago three way in years.... thanks for the Memories..
Great vid. Great explanation.
Viewers who don't understand any of this should not do any electrical work in their home!
Thank you!
as a novice electrician, decades ago, i was changing out a light fixture. breaker off- lights turned off... went to strip the hot wire at fixture..... got a big zap. and guess where?? chicago
The WORST I've ever seen, was in a hallway, where they added a second switch, to create this kind of 3-way circuit, to control the hallway lights. The problem was, they used hot and neutral from two different outlets, each on separate breakers! YIKES!! Luckily, the outlets were both on the same leg of the breaker panel, or, when the switches were to turn off the light by leaving both terminals of the light hot, the light would see 240 volts, instead of off. (Of course, that would turn the lights off...PERMANENTLY!)😮
I have never seen this before, and I was in the trade for 40 years. But that was in New England. Glad, this could drive a man crazy.
In New England myself.. Here in Maine. Yup it's a crazy method. lol
There were a few light switches in a house I worked on that looked like that, but I didn't know that what it was called. Thanks for the information.
You bet.. Thanks for watching.
Nice!
This isn't really hard to understand at all. Beats me why some people have a hard time figuring this out.
It's dangerous because it both routes power from the hot lead where it's not supposed to go as well as puts the neutral lead through a switch, which means the hot lead will still be applying power to the load when it shouldn't.
Thanks!
Man, I remember as an apprentice when I first started working in residential electrical, I would always come across these Chicago and California three-way wiring methods. Very exciting💥😅 times for me back then.
Well done! Bravo! I have tanfled with these before and it took me a few hours to figure it out. I have also seen solid CU MC using the metal cladding as the traveler, once. That lit me right up!
Here in mid-Atlantic we call this a Lazy Susan. Found in older homes built before they used 3 wire. It allowed you to switch the stairway lights both top and bottom, using (2) 2-wires between the switches. And yes, it does switch the neutral. Blows the breaker with a Decora switch every time. Took me decades before I actually had to troubleshoot and replace one to see how it was actually wired. Only a true old-timer could help you with this one.
Electrical Contractor in Maine since 1998 and have been in the trades for over 40 years and I have seen some things....but this Chicago 3 way is new to me. Great presentation sir, thank you. I find it shocking (pun intended) that was ever Code....with no ground available it's down right reckless to have both fixture wires hot at the same time. Treat every wire like a hot when the power is on is what I tell others.....I have lost count of the energized grounds and even metal casings I have found energized over the years.
It is a crazy method. I don't think you will find one on a home wired after the 40s maybe the 50s. This was common at one time with knob and tube wiring. The first time I saw one I was scratching my head. lol I started my career as a construction electrician and did mostly large industrial projects. I later moved into electrical engineering and retired from Texas Instruments a few years back. I started making videos and now this has become a business. lol. What part of the state do you cover?
Would this cause an led light to glow when the switch is 'off'?
No, because there is 0 voltage difference between the screw shell and center pin when given two neutrals or two hots FROM THE SAME PHASE. Sometimes the switches were on different circuits, such as for a yard light controlled by a switch in the house and outbuilding from different panels. If the switches were on the opposite phase, then in one of the four switch positions the light would get 240 volts. Besides the obvious increased risk of electric shock by having 120V to ground on the screw shell, having the switches on different circuits would never work in modern times because it would trip AFCIs and GFCIs, nonetheless the Chicago method was used well into the 1950s, and probably even the 60s, usually on farms.
Once you wired the travelers I knew how it was going to work. I have not seen this method in practice however I have only worked on a few knob and tube houses.
I was always told this was a "California 3-way" and all the literature I read in school also refered to it as such. Also, I have heard it called a neutral switched 3-way. Good demo to explain how it actually works! Ive never thought about it ive always just fixed them or rewired them when i see them.
I made a video on the California as well. th-cam.com/video/AeXFe5ghmKQ/w-d-xo.html
Chicago Sparky here. It's standard practice, at least with the me and the firms I've worked with, to fix these when we come across them. Another advantage of everything being in EMT.
Yeah EMT is nice but I imagine it adds a pretty large expense during installation.
@@BackyardMaine indeed. That's why it's code here. When the codes were originally drafted there were a lot of electrical component manufacturing in the area. Another example of working the economy into building code.
Including driving up the price of any electrical install. A sea of metal tubing.
@@glee21012 true, but once installed it does make any service work and rewiring so much easier than NM cable does. And you have the extra ground of the grounded system with all that metal touching. The EMT also protects the wires, unlike NM which doesn't at all.
@@glee21012 Secure and protected.
Wow. This is amazing. Many years in the trade. Had no idea this method existed. You sir, have earned my subscription.
Welcome aboard! I'm working on the California 3-way now. Stay tuned.
Wow! I wonder who came up with that arrangement? 😂😂 I'm glad I don't do work in Chicago!
I have to say... in my 40+ years of doing electrical work (primarily industrial & commercial in SoCal/west coast & Texas) I've never come across this (fortunately, I guess!).
Many years ago, I came across an old residence (that had been re-purposed to a Law office), in which I was contracted to do a lighting upgrade (the rooms all had old, 8' ballasted fluorescents)... until I discoverd that it still had knob-and-tube in the attic space - and it was still being utilized! Those conductors were all running VERY warm!
That job ended up taking MUCH longer (and, costing substantially more) than what was originally quoted, as I had to [basically] rewire the entire place. Fortunately, the walls were old-school, real "bat & plaster" construction, so no fire-blocking to preventing the pulling-in of new/modern conductors. What a PIA! 😂
Sound like a few projects I have worked in the past. Spent most of my career as an industrial electrician and finished it up in electrical engineering. When I was younger I use to do a lot of side work and thats really where my residential experience came from.
Great explanation, thank you! Looking forward to the explanation of the "California Three-way". Haven't heard of that one before watching your channel.
I hope it involves a movie star 😋
Thank you.. Glad it was helpful! The California 3-way is coming this weekend or Monday at the latest.
When I first began in the early 80's I had to remove tube & wire from an old house & was amazed at the absurdity of how that place was wired- it seemed like there should have been way more fires from that type of system & yet it wasn't so bad that an impetus was generated to ban that stuff outright... CODE upgraded eventually so that you could not install that system any longer but did not require people to remove it unless/until there was an upgrade... there are still millions of homes across the USA that have that wire still functioning today... scary stuff!
Why diagnosis on older buildings is difficult. I used to carry an extension cord with the end stripped and the hot wire capped. It’s a lot easier to test with a multimeter with known good reference wires.
I found switched neutrals, 240v in a lighting box, and other homeowner hacks over the years.
I learned of this when I was a kid. I replaced a switch for my Mom. announced that we would do a smoke test, and smoked did come out when I turned the breaker on.
This one is definitely a new one for me. I can honestly say I've been in lots of homes with knob and tubing and haven't seen this. I am glad you showed this and looking forward to seeing everything from here on out. Great teacher and you earned my subscription tonight. Stay safe and keep making these great videos.
Wow, Thank you! Welcome to the channel. I have the California 3-way uploaded and it will go live later today. Glad to have you onboard.
@@BackyardMaine sounds great looking forward to watching.
Not exactly what I was expecting when I saw the title "Chicago 3-way". But, logically, it makes sense. Unconventional that that light fixture will always have at least 1 hot leg I mean, it works.
Since the "Chicago 3-way" requires running separate conductors from the lamp holder to both switches, it must be an uncommon sight in buildings wired with sheathed 2C wiring or newer. The old wiring I've dealt with is sheathed in cardboard on top of the rubber insulation and is quite a chore to strip compared to modern sheathing where you can use the ground as a rip-cord.
I've never seen such a thing. Seems totally insane. The idea of a neutral being switched just can't fit in my brain. But, now you're making me wonder if my understanding of how it should work~~only switching hots~~is correct. I am definitely going to have to watch that next video.
The California 3-way will be out tomorrow. Then the dead end and the standard method next week. Stay tuned.
I’m gobsmacked how crazy that is. I’ve never known anything but a true 3 way with 3/w ground Romex.
Thanks for posting this, I've been patiently waiting for this since you reply to me on another video. I believe Iran into this about 50 years ago at a relatives house , if I recall correctly there was power to the light fixture but it wouldn't light. I managed to change a faulty switch and got the light working but never really understood (or cared) about what was going on.
My pleasure. I have the California 3-way video made and I will have it up on Monday.
Seems like Chicago was always intent on burning itself to the ground. Dang! In 50 yrs of doing electrical work I thought I had seen it all. I've even worked on a number of old homes with knob n tube wiring and never come across this one. In fact, never heard of it, but thanks for the info.
Not to get deep into politics, but look at all the incompetent mayors of Chicago over the years 😆
My pleasure.. thanks for watching.
So, O'Leary's cow was not entirely to blame?
@@gregorymoore2877 Unless the cow was the electrician, then it's even mooo-re to blame!
@@davepowder4020 which would be ironic, because this method was also commonly used on farms until at least the 1950s, maybe even the 60s in some areas of the country, for switching a yardlight from the house and barn, with power on both ends and often a single wire overhead from the house, and barn/outbuilding, to the light, fed from different circuits. I actually ran across this, on a farm in Sanilac County michigan. According to the owner the house was built in 1904, but didn't have electricity until 1951, and the yardlight was installed about a year later when the new barn was finished, the original barn suffered a fire started by a gas lantern, in 1951 not long before electricity would arrive.
Thought it looked familiar. But I've always known it as the Carter System.
I think I may have heard them called that before as well. I've always known it as the Chicago.
I subbed for an electrician in my early twenties and we’d come across things like this on old work. My background was in solid state electronics as a kid just for a hobby but I had a good understanding of electricity, electrical circuits, and semi conductors because of this. My boss had 15 years as an electrician and 8 years as his own private company. You’d be amazed at what a lot of electricians don’t know beyond basic simple circuit breakers/switch/outlet scenarios. I remember him looking at a three phase diagram like he was reading mandarin. And another time showing him how to wire a DPDT relay to reverse polarity on a projector screen. You’d swear he thought it was witchcraft lol. Point being, just because you have a degree or certification, doesn’t mean you know what you should know, and someone without doesn’t mean they don’t know….
It takes years of experience. I worked in large industrial setting for most of my career and eventually because an electrical engineer. I'm retired now.
Hours... it took me hours of monkeying to try and figure this out. I have knob and tube wiring and we were redoing the basement with a 3 way switch for the lighting.
It was a good thing that i labeled each wire and the original switches. I identified neutral and hot and wired it like it should be. I then went to the other switch and what i had initially thought was hot and neutral were reversed.
After hours of trying to get it wired i put the old switches back in... got the circuit to work like it used to and then replaced them with new dimable switches and wired them the same way the old switches were wired.
Thankfully i wont have to worry much about the hot light when it is off because the wires are all in a junction box with a low voltage transformer which powers the lowvoltage LED puck lights.
I've never come across the Chicago method.
However, we bought a 72 mobile home and I was replacing the porch light.
Keep in mind I always kill the breaker.
She also wanted to change the light switch to one of those decorator styles.
When I got to the old switch someone wired it to switch the white wires instead of the black. I found it odd. I wired it correctly and all is fine now. Also, there was not any other light switch wired to white except that one.
Lesson is always turn the breaker off.
Wow!
Electrician and lighting control guy. This is super cool.
Thank you very much!
I've been an electrician for almost 40 years, I have never seen ANYTHING like this and I've worked in a lot of knob and tube homes(near Philadelphia region), glad I never came across this. It makes sense for functionality, but WOW! Lutron Caseta with Picos is an easy fix.
I have only come across a few in my 40 years in the trade. It took a minute to figure it out the first time. No internet back then so didn't know what I found. lol
I owned a 1906 house in Evanston, a Northshore suburb of Chicago. Still had gas pipes in the ceiling from the old gaslight days, and mostly knob-and-tube wiring. Learned about the Carter 3-way when I blew up an X-10 remote switch in the foyer. I think I know how this kind of wiring came about. The chandelier in the dining room (not a 3-way) had a single wire running from the wall switch to the fixture, then the neutral ran down across the ceiling to the other side of the room to a baseboard outlet! If you wanted to add a second switch then Carter method feels like a problem solver. Remember the walls are all wooden lathes with horse hair mixed into the plaster, so cutting holes in the ceiling is an expensive proposition. Prying off the baseboard and fishing the wall up to an old-work box for a switch with a second wire is easy-peasy.
Makes sense..
I got bit by one of those many years ago in our pastor's parsonage. Switched the hall lamp "off", got on the ladder to work on it... ZAP!!!
Up until 15 years or so ago I was still wiring like this. Many in Cincinnati were. We just called it a 3 way
So basically if you see a 3-way switch with a hot and neutral hooked to it, raise that estimate by 50%.
been an electrician for 25 years and this is the first ive heard of this type of 3 way. very interesting but wow that could be dangerous
Im just a diy guy but have run into this a few times helping friends debug their houses. I always assumed these live off bulbs were caused by other diy people and i would remove the second switch. Im truly surprised that professional electricians believed this was ok.
You might also suggest putting a gfci outlet at the root of all two wire circuits - in case theres a partial short.
Also another thing - when the line is pretty long different potential can occur between "two" phases in switch so spark will happen inside the switch which in turn will wear off the switch much faster. But it was with incandescent light bulbs, not sure if it will happen with LEDs
3-way and 4-way switches here in the US run on single phase 120v circuits. There is no second phase to arc over. The potential difference between the hot and neutral is only 120v and it takes quite a lot to get that to jump the contacts of a switch.
@@BackyardMaine sorry for confusion, i've put two in quotes meaning it is the same phase but due to long line something was happening, probably a little phase shift. I was on one object with that issue and when the same phase met at switch it produced a noticeable spark and one switch started to malfunction, so we rebuilt the system
I see these in every house I’ve rehabbed. I’m from St. Louis, but any house that is a 2 wire with no ground (50s or earlier) was wired this way. I moved to Omaha and same thing here. It is totally confusing and I’ve been shocked a few times thinking the power was off when I turned the light switch off. I turn power off now.
Cant believe this was ever considered OK. First time I ran into this was in a house converted from N&T. Drove me crazy.
Honestly everybody talks about the danger of the way things used to be wired, but I have a way to go about it that has kept me from getting killed.
1) Assume everything is hot until proven otherwise
2) Don't touch anything
3) Avoid being grounded
4) If something must be touched, do not hold with both hands
As a welder, this also works pretty well for me. I used to get shocked constantly, until I decided to not just let gloves give me a false sense of security. Now when welding at home, I don't even change welding rods without either standing on something that is not grounded, or setting the electrode down and picking it back up with the stinger rather than holding the electrode in one hand and the stinger in the other. I also turn off breakers or unplug lamps before changing lightbulbs if it requires removing a physically broken bulb. I have been shocked countless times, most of which were inadvertent. Every time, it was avoidable. You cannot get shocked unless you allow yourself to make a circuit, plain and simple. If you can't understand that, you're in the wrong line of work.
Very interesting. You will never find a circuit like that in the UK. That looks all so over complicated for no real advantage. Really interesting to see how different wiring is in other parts of the globe. Thanks for the lesson.
This old method was used before ww2 when single conductor knob and tube wiring was common.
I ran into an outlet with both sides wired to hot. It had a freezer plugged in and I've no idea how it worked. The utility room that was in got rewired with a new 30 amp circuit. Why 30 amps? Because a couple of 220V heaters had been removed, freeing up space in the breaker box when a mini-split heat pump was installed. I put in a new double breaker, 20 amp 220V in the middle for the heat pump with the outer pair being 30 amp. I removed the connection between the outer toggles to use them as independent 110V circuits.
I ran into something like this when working on my house, the power being supplied to the fixture and then on to the switch, which means there is power at the fixture even if the swirch is off. Got rid of that as soon as I could.
Also, I never mix lights and outlets on the same circuit. When I'm done, every room has its own 20 amp plug circuit and lights are on a separate circuit though sometimes one lighting circuit may be shared by two adjoining rooms since lighting power demand is low. That way, no popped breaker resulting from an outlet results in no lights in that room or anywhere else.
I dont care whats correct or allowed, I'm not doing it any other way.
I first encountered a setup like this in a house I had bought that was built in 1954, although it didn't use 3-way switches, it used similar methods. They had wired the outside porch light to be permanently on and use a sensor with the same wiring and circuit as the kitchen sink light and switch that controlled the kitchen light, outside light and "GFCI" plug in the same double wallplate. I wanted the light on the switch.
I had everything off, yet got zapped by the neutral wires of all things. I also had the circuit breaker trip once I got everything hooked up correctly. I found out they had wired it like this where another switch on the opposite side of the kitchen, that didn't even control the light, put power through the neutral. I disconnected everything in all those circuits, used a wand toner to isolate each wire, and wired everything correctly. I still had a random hot neutral, but it wasn't in the circuit and I couldn't figure out where it went, so I capped it off, taped it off, labeled it, and stuck it back in the junction box. Poor wiring technique could have had bad consequences for someone who didn't identify it.
Back in 2005 was doing custodial/ maintenance work for my church's campus. The original wiring was done back in the '40's in the old dairy barn. It was patched together with mineral insulation and K&T. But it had one of the three way switches that just about drove me crazy. Because one switch was at the back door of the shop building 150' away and the other in the barn. On and it was run underground in 3/4" steel conduit. Like to never figured that one out.
I had a similar situation where I was trying to turn off power to an old barn that was being torn down. Power came into the home and there was the main panel and two sub-panels. I would not fine the two pole 30A feed to the barn. I finally cut the main to the house and it still didn't take it down. Then I was thinking they tied into the meter. Nope not there either. I finally figured out that it was fed from the house across the street. I guess that was part of the farm at one time. lol