Firstly, I really appreciate you making this video, because it shows just how much care you are putting into your lore breakdown. Secondly, I believe your views on giving the game timeline precedence and taking liberties with the short stories is the correct path to go. When the short stories were being written I believe many aspects of the war were abridged simply to make the short stories more palatable to the reader since they weren't trying to make some expansive manga like Berserk or One Piece. The "official" History of the War of Succession should be one that gives the world its proper time to breathe and develop while the short stories should be supplemental, and they should be adjusted as logically as possible to fit the world/story at large. I have absolute faith that you will do this story justice, and I look forward to your video!
Thank you. Treating the short stories as nothing more than supplemental materials to add some extra detail and story where they logically fit is what I've been leaning towards, and then ignoring anything about them that breaks established lore, but I've been unsure if I should do it. Any potential liberty taken when adapting the contradictions would include a disclaimer in the video.
Alright Culgan, I've thought about this video all day long and I want to give some thoughts or options for you. The translation and idea that Teo McDohl took five days to go from Gregminister to Kwaba could, in theory, be factoring all of the components of gathering troops, assembling gear, preparing to march AND actually marching. This would put the travel time very easily at about half of that, or maybe even less. Additionally, in the actual gameplay of Suikoden 1, we see the passage of time happening throughout the game multiple times. For example, staying the night in Gregminister Inn when escaping the troops thanks to Marie is overnight. Any time you stay in your room to pass time, that's overnight. Taking Toran Castle after defeating the Zombie Dragon, that's overnight. After taking Pannu Yakuta castle and fighting Kwanda, the game states that "one month has passed since those events." I think it's reasonable to conclude that other events, such as meeting Odessa in the Lenankamp hideout, are also overnight. Therefore, I think the game is giving you a rational reason to assume that Gregminister is effectively a one-day march or walk to Lenankamp. Using that distance, it's likely that Kwaba fortress is no further than a day and a half away. I think the idea that using that measurement of distance to limit what could be possible is putting way too much stock into the "Teo took five days" line of thinking. Also, even if that were true, there could have been other unforeseen factors that caused a delay that simply weren't written about. During the events of Suikoden 1, that area is not far from a bandit camp, for example. Maybe the armies during the march had to fend off bandits. Maybe monsters appearing were too strong and took more time than anticipated to fight through. Maybe there were weather conditions that prevented Teo's section of the army from making swift time. Any one of those things could realistically put the march from Gregminister to Kwaba to a one-day average. This would make the timeline plausible across the board for all other happenings. Also, the Toran Republic region is not very large, both from general measurements looking at the map, and from comparing and contrasting how much distance is covered while walking on the world map in comparison to, let's say, Suikoden 2 and the City-State of Jowston's size. There is much more surface area to cover when walking to other places, like Viktor's Fortress to Toto Village, or from the Muse-Greenhill checkpoint to Forest Village, which easily showcase how small the Toran Republic region is in comparison. I think the more plausible direction to go would be to believe that Teo's march that took five days didn't happen at the swiftest speeds, just given all possible information available to us as players/readers/enthusiasts. Another thing I wanted to mention is that the story being told to the players and information being passed about things such as Geil Rugner's army being "bloodthirsty" and "laying waste everywhere they went" could theoretically be propaganda spread by the Scarlet Moon Empire after Barbarosa takes control of the area for the time period. There is clearly a lot of suppression of free thinking and oppression of the populous at that time, displayed during events like the child in Rockland being kicked for getting a soldier's shoes muddy, or how Milich Oppenheimer refuses to let the various citizens of Antei / Rikon / Teien call their towns by their original names. It stands to reason from the Empire's actions that Geil Rugner's army likely wasn't actually bloodthirsty, but rather villainized by the Empire. I've said quite a lot here so I think this is a good stopping point, but I would love to open further dialogue to help you through these plotholes if it would help you with your War of Succession script.
Unfortunately the 5 days doesn't include any components of gathering troops, assembling gear and provision. It was started in the story that the 5 day timeframe would be after his departure. Once Teo was informed of the news, he said his goodbyes and immediately left the city. There was no prep time. How is this possible? Because it was stated in the story, that Ain Gide, who was a unit commander in Teo's army, had his cavalry force already outside the city at the time, and that they were the only force that Teo would take. No prep time needed as he was lucky that Ain Gides unit was already prepped. The 5 days travel time was explicitly referencing the time Teo would be marching on the road for after his departure. As Teo was leaving the city riding out, Geil asked his advisor how long will it take. To which his advisor responded, it will take Teo 5 days to pass through the fortress of Kwaba. So again, the 5 days travel time is explicitly how long the marching distance between Gregminster and Kwaba is. And that's with a small cavalry force number just over 1,000 men, all of whom are cavalry. After this scene there's a time skip. "Five days after Teo's departure" and that's the scene Geil makes his move. Teo had just crossed the Kwaba fortress. 5 days travel time. But hypothetically, let's for argument sake say that the marching time was half that, that changes nothing, as the war was meant to last just under a year, while Gremio's timeline in Axe of the Oath puts the final battle of the war in under 3 weeks. In fact, if the marching time was half that, all that accomplishes is ending the war sooner, keeping the same problem. The timeline of the length of the war doesn't add up. It's less about the marching times, they were merely being used as a reference to highlight the real issue, that Gremio's new backstory contradicts all known information about the war, and throws the timeline out the window. Also the final battle at Kwaba wasn't a siege on the fortress. It was a head on cavalry vs cavalry assault between Teo's armoured cavalry, and Schmidt's unarmoured cavalry. A single battle, not a long term siege. I wouldn't take overworld travel time in the games to be a realistic measurement, Suikoden 1 was a small scale project, with a tiny development team and practically zero budget. It's a condensed experience. Geographically, Toran is around the same size as Dunan, maybe slightly bigger. We only get to see about two thirds of the country in the game. There is more to the country than is shown in the map in this video. This map only shows the regions we see in the game. There's a whole other region to the south that borders Kooluk, there's another whole region to the north west of Gregminster, and there's a whole region north and north east of the Dwarves. Toran is significantly bigger than people realise. Also, it wasn't propaganda being spread about Geils army being bloodthirsty and laying waste, as it's confirmed that in addition to controlling most of the Imperial Army, Geil also hired a significant amount of bandits and pirates into his forces. And there are events of them looting and pillaging in the story. One of the reasons the war turned in Barbarosa's favour was because the populace grew tired of Geil's harsh and tyrannical rule. The oppression of the populous you're referring to like the child being kicked for muddying the soldiers boots, Milich changes the town names, etc, these events all happened a few years after the War of Succession. That kind of corruption didn't start taking root until Barbarosa appointed Windy the court magician. Geil took power through an Abdication Trial, he forged his fathers will, and claimed the throne was stolen from him by his brother. He tricked the court, and the court sided with him. The issue is Gremio's origin story. Before Axe of the Oath, Gremio origin story was that he was a soldier under Teo's command during the War of Succession, and Teo saved his life during a battle. Gremio would become a servant in the McDohl household after the war. But in Axe of the Oath, he was never a soldier, but was already a servant. Gremio's origin and the effects that has on the timeline in Axe of the Oath directly conflicts with already known and established information about the war. Then there was The Brilliance of the Star Sword, which contains no contradictions with the original information about the war. There's no issues with the travel times in general, they work if we follow the original information of the war. But they don't work with Gremio's contradictory origin story. Gremio having 2 different variations of his backstory is the problem and all other problems are caused by the contradiction in his two origin stories.
@@CulganValya All fair points. You are far more researched on the subject so I'm mostly going off of the content you've provided. To answer your original question from the video then, I think your best path forward is likely to avoid lore inconsistencies presented by Axe of the Oath. I think the change in origin story for Gremio highlights some of the larger issues that can come about when extra content is provided to a cast of characters on this scale. Thanks for taking the time to respond thoroughly. I didn't realize the scope of Toran and definitely would not have expected it to be as large as it is based on its presentation from the games.
I agree. Who would instantly hire some random stranger they just met while wandering around in a desert to raise their child? It's illogical. The only way it makes sense is for Teo to have hired him into his army, and then have the story naturally progress from there.
@@CulganValya Hahaha, right? "Oh you, the axe wielding man with the scar on his face...you seem nice and a little lost...Want to look after my son and live under my roof!? 😁😁😁👌✌️👍"
Actually selecting and assembling a fast elite force, provisioning them, gearing up mounts, organizing, and moving out would probably take 2 days and you'd leave on the third morning. So it's probably more about 2.5 days time from Gregminster to Kwaba. Assuming Teo, as talented as a general as he was, could have a blitz force assembled from a defending army to leave the day he got the message seems a bit much. Good video though! Always loved this game.
The story explicitly states 5 days after Teo's departure would be when Geil made his move. The preparation time to depart wasn't included in his travel time. *Edit* It was also only the portion of his forces under Ain Gide's command, who were already outside the city, who would depart. So there wasn't much preparation involved.
@@dragonnasxavier3473 No problem! But you are indeed correct about taking time to gather provisions, gear up and organise your army. It only reinforces that the 19 day timeline for the war in Axe of the Oath is impossible as it makes the other battles that happened within the war even more unlikely to have happened..
The problem with using Teo's travel time, is that it was a Forced March, without armor, being made by a Cavalry Division without any of their support staff and followers. A forced march is literally moving as quickly as possible, with as little stops, detours and material as possible. Teo was required to move "Quick, fast and in a hurry" for that deployment. Barbarossa's march was likely under far better conditions, and not a forced march.
@@61089loki I'm aware. That's why I kept saying "assuming they could move as fast as Teo", those times would be a best case scenario. But this is what makes the timeline even less possible in Axe of the Oath. Because if a forced march by cavalry is 5 days, under regular conditions covering that distance should take even longer. Thus making the movements of other characters in the war even more unlikely, and impossible to have happened within Axe of the Oaths timeframe.
@CulganValya being fair, the Gate Rune War/Toran Liberation War lasted 4 years, according to the timeline as well (two under Odessa's command, two under Tir's). Considering just how much trouble the Rebels had at the start, before finally pulling what should have been unachievable victories when Tir was given command by Odessa, and recruited Mathiu. Even those victories took a long time to set up and pull off. It' been a while since I played, but none of the major victories in suikoden 1 felt like they were easy wins, and you never really had the advantage in any of the war battles. Every victory felt earned, but like you came through by the skin of your teeth none the less. Wars with victories like that wind up with hea y attrition, which can result in manpower issues, War fatigue, supply line issues, etc which can also slow down troop movements. The Succession War may also have faced similar problems for it's Heroes, as the Gate Rune Wars did for it's Heroes.
@@61089loki It's a wildly different comparison though. The Liberation Army was a ragtag bunch of rebels who were incredibly low in number, it tooks months of recruiting for them to even build a force strong enough to fight Kwanda's force on the field. Following the liberation of each region with timeskips and more recruitment, the merging and coordination of different rebel forces across the empire. That all takes time, making the several year long Gate Rune War logical. While in Axe of the Oath, you're given an exact timeframe of when and where the final battle took place. Teo already had an assembled force in place. So unless a single head on cavalry vs cavalry charge battle took between 6-9 months to finish, it doesn't work. Gremio's different origin story in Axe of the Oath breaks the previously established lore and timeline of the war.
If Teo's army moved that slow with dragon horses, how slow do regular troops move? It must have taken months for the matilda knights to reach Muse. No wonder no one wanted to help.
I just applied the same measurement on the world map to test this out and answer your question. Of course these are all rough estimates based off a line in a short story, and not to be taken as absolute fact. But, assuming all forces move as fast as Teo's cavalry. It would take 8 days from Rock Axe to Muse. But if they rode from Highway Village, it'd be 5 days. And if they rode out from the border or a fort along the border, it'd be 3 - 3.5 days. Anabelle says that the Highland Army will arrive in 5 days, which is the same time the Matilda Knights arrived at. So either they rode out from near the border, or they double timed the march from Rock Axe and made haste. But using that measurement, the Highland army could easily arrive in 2.5 days if they wanted to based on the distance between the Highland border and Muse. She also says that it will take 7 days to assemble the entire State Army. Not possible. Applying that same measurement to the other cities. Greenhill to Muse is 10 days. Two River to Greenhill is 5 days, so that's 15 to Muse. South Window, assuming they follow the land path by going through Radat and Toto, would take 14 days to reach Muse. As for Tinto's forces. Roughly 10 days to reach Two River alone, so 25 days to reach Muse. This isn't even factoring in how slowly their force would move through the narrow mountain path. You also have to factor in the travel time of sending a messenger ahead to the cities and ordering them to prepare their men, to have them ready to march. So add some extra days on top of each travel time. Though if we dig this deep into numbers, we're reading too deeply into things we're not supposed to be reading into.
@@nathan3859 Just for the fun of it because your comment sparked some curiosity in me. I just redrew the lines on the Suikoden 2 map using the information given from Anabelle about the Highland army taking 5 days to reach Muse from the border. Again, this is just for reference using in game dialogue, not to be taken 100% seriously. If it takes an already assembled and provisioned army 5 days to march from the Highland border to Muse. Using that distance as a measurement, it would take 22 days to march from Greenhill to Muse, that's not including time needed to send a messenger back, and the days needed to gather and provision the men. Realistically you're looking at closer to 30 days for Greenhill alone. For Tinto that would be roughly 43 days travel, not including time to send a messenger, or to assemble and provision the army. So in their case probably closer to 50 days to reach Muse. Now maybe that 5 day marching time for the Highland Army includes stops along the way to occupy villages and towns and to station garrisons there. So let's say realistically the march takes half that time, so 2.5 days. That would make it 11 days to march an army from Greenhill to Muse, and 21.5 days to march an army from Tinto to Muse. So how would it be possible to assemble all of the States armies in 7 days? That also throws into question the 6 month duration of the war in Suikoden 2. And, using the measurement of movement for the Highland army, which unlike Teo's all cavalry force, was a mixture of all troop types, so it would be a better indication of a real armies movement. Applying that measurement on the map, it would take 10 days from Gregminster to Kwaba. Putting Barbarosa's travel time from Kunan to Pannu Yakuta castle closer to 39 days travel if he travelled with his force. The travel times kill the stories. We really shouldn't be digging deep into these lines 😅
If the original events got retconned in Axe of the Oath, then it got retconned again shortly after in The Brilliance of the Star Sword, because the timeline of Axe of the Oath is contradicted in that. The dialogue in The Brilliance of the Star Sword makes it sound like a long war, which would put it closer in line with the original information.
@@harrywinkson9158 I think if I make the two changes that I proposed, I wouldn't be interfering with any lore from the original story. If I made those two minor alterations to the contradictions, I'd be erasing the contradictions by incorporating them into his previously established origin story in a natural way that fleshes out his story a little more. It keeps all stories and lore intact.
Axe of the Oath seems to be just dramatization of the event by someone who probably didn't get the memo. So I think it's better to stick with the canon that make the most sense, which is Gremio being picked up by Theo to become Soldier which later on would saved Tir. Also yeah, war lasting only 3 weeks involving less than 10 thousands of men aren't big enough or impactful enough for other event to happen, it's a civik war between 2 emperors, I highly doubt it only lasted 3 weeks with only 1 battle happened and only involve 5000 soldiers at one side. Jowston attacking also wouldn't make sense because if the conflict was dealt with that soon, they won't have room. So it was said Tinto and South Window army was the one that deployed to occupy Kalekka, I'd assume it was still Granmeyer and Gustav as their Mayor, both of them are smart and cunning enough to understand that even if Scarlet Moon Empire was just recovered from civil war, it wasn't that bad of a war and that would be not a really good time to invade. On the other hand, during the Gate Rune War, it was ironically the biggest opportunity for them to invade, which they never did until Matthiu sent Granmeyer a letter that Scarlet Moon Empire would attack them. So both Granmeyer and Gustav watched Scarlet Moon Empire closely but never actually invaded until Matthiu's fake news, which means they weren't that confident they could take the Scarlet Moon Empire but they had to act if they were about to be attacked, which means both South Window and Tinto's deduce that the war of succession damage was severe enough that they even dared to invade. That wouldn't make sense had the war quickly resolve like what was told in Axe of the Oath
Yeah, it's definitely a condensed and abridged version of events. It's only 44 pages long. Excluding pictures, 41 pages long, and the first 8 pages were primarily dialogue between members of the McDohl household before any events of the war happened. So that left only 33 pages for the story of the war. I think I should treat Axe of the Oath as a supplemental material. Use the information to flesh out previously established lore, and ignore any events in the story that contradict previously established lore. Correct, it was Granmeyer and Gustav. And you make excellent points. It would take time for word to reach them of a civil war, they would've kept a close eye on events, then time for them to prepare, and time for them to march. Based on when their army arrived, it appears they didn't make their move until the end of the war when the Empire was at its weakest in an attempt to take advantage of the situation. So a short 3 week war as indicated by Axe of the Oath makes no sense.
Does it state that the travel time was 5 days or the time to gather the troops + travel? That might make it more reasonable. Still no solution though. Haven't played the game for a looong time
No prep time was included. The force he rode with were the troops under Ain Gide's command, who were already outside the city. The story states that Geil would make his move 5 days after Teo's departure. So the 5 days is solely referencing the time it will take Teo and his men to reach Kwaba fortress.
Even assuming he ran very fast, the timeline of events due to Gremio's involvement and contradictory backstory still prevent the majority of the war from happening.
I would keep everything as lore accurate as possible and that means w/e comes from Murayama's pen. If you want to blend elements from the short stories then just make sure to put a disclaimer in the beginning that this is the *likely* story of Gremio.
The problem is, the only information that came from Murayama's pen is what breadcrumbs of information about the war are in Suikoden 1. All of the other lore and supplemental material that actually fleshed out the war were written by others, and were only approved by him, that includes all contradictions. So Murayama himself wasn't even consistent within his own work as approved the contradictions. The only things that seem to actually contradict the overall story of the war is the information surrounding Gremio's origin, with him being instantly hired as a servant instead of first being a soldier, and the timeline of events from Axe of the Oath. While the events of The Brilliance of the Star Sword short story is completely accurate to the War of Succession and contains no contradictions. If I make the two changes that I proposed, I'm not interfering with any established lore from the original story, but am instead erasing the contradictions from the short stories, by incorporating the contradictions into his previously established origin story in a natural way that fleshes out his story a little more. It keeps all stories and lore intact. I would of course also put a disclaimer in the video stating I had to take minor liberties with Gremio's origin due to the contradictions surrounding the events.
It's easy to assume that Barbarossa crossed the map as if he were the protagonist. It is also better to take the liberty of assuming that at the moment when no specific passage of time is mentioned, we can take the liberty of interpreting that everyone moved like the protagonist of the game 🤡🤡🤡🤡. Seriously now... we'd better just stick with the cannon story.
But what's the "canon" story? The sources regarding the events of the war contradict each other. Even the information on the wiki's and fan sites contradict each other because the source information contradicts itself. Is the original information canon and Axe of the Oath is to be ignored completely? Did Axe of the Oath retcon the original information? Was the retcon from Axe of the Oath then retconned again in The Brilliance of the Star Sword? Was it not a retcon but a mistake and an oversight? Maybe it was neither a retcon nor a mistake and the Axe of the Oath's only intended purpose was to highlight the bond between Gremio and Tir? Are Axe of the Oath and The Brilliance of the Star Sword intended to be viewed as tiered canon stories? Treated as supplemental pieces that we use to pluck out information that doesn't contradict with the original information, while ignoring aspects that do contradict with original information? All of these stories, information and contradictions, were signed off and approved by Murayama. He wasn't consistent with his own work and story surrounding the events of the war, making the "canon" story of the war a mess filled with contradictions.
@@CulganValya , Since we're having a serious discussion: The correct approach would be to completely ignore any story that came after the original, especially when it's clear that the writer didn’t take the time to create a mental map of the entire canon. If the creators of the additional content didn’t bother to ensure consistency and avoid mistakes, why should we, as fans, take their lack of professionalism seriously? With this in mind, I believe we should focus on the canon story and only use what was released afterward if it aligns with the original. Any inconsistencies should be disregarded, as the necessary effort and respect for the details were clearly not given.
@@CulganValya , If it’s not too much trouble, though I know it could be, it would be really cool if you could create a mental map of all the events in the story in a way that eliminates inconsistencies, while also having the freedom to add what makes the most sense (since the writers of Axe of the Oath Then and The Brilliance of the Star Sword didn’t bother to do this). In fact, there’s a program that makes this easier since it automatically creates the branches as you go.
I think the assumption you're making about the war lasting 19 days is potentially flawed. It takes travel time into account but not how long it takes to actually fight the battles, or any time in between. "Less than a year" seems pretty accurate. It was a few engagements and troop movements. Teo's troop speed is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this argument and I think that's the likeliest point of error. Either it took him longer to reach Kwaba, or he stayed stationed there longer or his battles took longer etc. It feels most likely that Acts of the Oath is where the inconsistencies are coming from since it's based around Teo's actions, which likely were spaced out more evenly during everything else that happened. I think your plan for tiered canon works just fine. :)
Here's the exact breakdown of events in the Axe of the Oath short story. Teo rides from the capital to the Gouran region to fight pirates. 5 days later, Tir is abducted, and Gremio is forced to deliver a message to Teo, meet us in 2 weeks at Kwaba Fortress, or Tir dies. During the time Gremio is travelling to Kwaba, Teo is fighting the pirates. Gremio arrives at Teo's camp and delivers the message. Those 2 weeks later, Teo meets Geils forces at Kwaba. It's a head on battle as Geil's general, Schmidt, only knows how to do a direct all out frontal assault. Teo's armoured cavalry vs Schmidt's non-armoured cavalry, Teo's forces would decimate Schmidt's forces in a head on charge. The battle at Kwaba Fortress between Teo and Schmidt is said to be the final battle of the War of Succession. So unless a single battle, which was a head on charge between armoured vs non-armoured cavalry, involving less than 5,000 men can last months, there's no possible way it works. The inconsistencies aren't based around Teo's actions. The inconsistencies are from Gremio's timeline and origin. His origin in Axe of the Oath directly contradicts his previous origin of having served under Teo's command as a soldier in the war. This altered origin is what breaks the entire timeline of the war. The travel times were simply being used to prove his contradictory origin breaks the timeline. The Brilliance of the Star Sword short story backs up the original established story of the war. While Axe of the Oath contradicts both.
More than likely the only channel on TH-cam, in all it's breadth, that is doing this much content on Genso Suikoden. I think considering the character lore thoughts, this does prove that either things were written at different times and no one was keeping track or retcons were made along the way without clarifying in other material. That seems a bit much to miss, especially when creating something like this. It's very likely with time and wanting to move to the next thing that any mistakes were left behind. The first thing that would come to my mind when making a sequel or multiple games is to make sure the timeline is correct, but of course, you can't fix what you've already put out to the public other than through a retcon.
They were all written by different authors, but approved by Murayama. They clearly weren't fact checking so any retcons would be accidental. Axe of the Oath contradicts the original story at times, but also fleshes it out at other times. While The Brilliance of the Star Sword contains no contradictions to the original story, but does contradict the timeline of Axe of the Oath. So if Axe of the Oath intentionally retconned something, those retcons were then retconned back to the original story in The Brilliance of the Star Sword. I think the issues with Axe of the Oath were because it was a condensed and abridged version of a key aspect of the war, for the purpose of highlighting Gremio and Tir's connection and relationship. To show how their bond formed and why it was so strong. And excluding pictures, the story was only 41 pages long. The first 8 or so being dialogue between the members of the McDohl household before any events of the war happened. Leaving only 33 pages for the story of the war.
Man your vids are so good I'm learning a lot about this series 😊
Firstly, I really appreciate you making this video, because it shows just how much care you are putting into your lore breakdown.
Secondly, I believe your views on giving the game timeline precedence and taking liberties with the short stories is the correct path to go. When the short stories were being written I believe many aspects of the war were abridged simply to make the short stories more palatable to the reader since they weren't trying to make some expansive manga like Berserk or One Piece.
The "official" History of the War of Succession should be one that gives the world its proper time to breathe and develop while the short stories should be supplemental, and they should be adjusted as logically as possible to fit the world/story at large.
I have absolute faith that you will do this story justice, and I look forward to your video!
Thank you. Treating the short stories as nothing more than supplemental materials to add some extra detail and story where they logically fit is what I've been leaning towards, and then ignoring anything about them that breaks established lore, but I've been unsure if I should do it.
Any potential liberty taken when adapting the contradictions would include a disclaimer in the video.
Alright Culgan, I've thought about this video all day long and I want to give some thoughts or options for you.
The translation and idea that Teo McDohl took five days to go from Gregminister to Kwaba could, in theory, be factoring all of the components of gathering troops, assembling gear, preparing to march AND actually marching. This would put the travel time very easily at about half of that, or maybe even less. Additionally, in the actual gameplay of Suikoden 1, we see the passage of time happening throughout the game multiple times. For example, staying the night in Gregminister Inn when escaping the troops thanks to Marie is overnight. Any time you stay in your room to pass time, that's overnight. Taking Toran Castle after defeating the Zombie Dragon, that's overnight. After taking Pannu Yakuta castle and fighting Kwanda, the game states that "one month has passed since those events." I think it's reasonable to conclude that other events, such as meeting Odessa in the Lenankamp hideout, are also overnight. Therefore, I think the game is giving you a rational reason to assume that Gregminister is effectively a one-day march or walk to Lenankamp. Using that distance, it's likely that Kwaba fortress is no further than a day and a half away.
I think the idea that using that measurement of distance to limit what could be possible is putting way too much stock into the "Teo took five days" line of thinking. Also, even if that were true, there could have been other unforeseen factors that caused a delay that simply weren't written about. During the events of Suikoden 1, that area is not far from a bandit camp, for example. Maybe the armies during the march had to fend off bandits. Maybe monsters appearing were too strong and took more time than anticipated to fight through. Maybe there were weather conditions that prevented Teo's section of the army from making swift time. Any one of those things could realistically put the march from Gregminister to Kwaba to a one-day average. This would make the timeline plausible across the board for all other happenings.
Also, the Toran Republic region is not very large, both from general measurements looking at the map, and from comparing and contrasting how much distance is covered while walking on the world map in comparison to, let's say, Suikoden 2 and the City-State of Jowston's size. There is much more surface area to cover when walking to other places, like Viktor's Fortress to Toto Village, or from the Muse-Greenhill checkpoint to Forest Village, which easily showcase how small the Toran Republic region is in comparison. I think the more plausible direction to go would be to believe that Teo's march that took five days didn't happen at the swiftest speeds, just given all possible information available to us as players/readers/enthusiasts.
Another thing I wanted to mention is that the story being told to the players and information being passed about things such as Geil Rugner's army being "bloodthirsty" and "laying waste everywhere they went" could theoretically be propaganda spread by the Scarlet Moon Empire after Barbarosa takes control of the area for the time period. There is clearly a lot of suppression of free thinking and oppression of the populous at that time, displayed during events like the child in Rockland being kicked for getting a soldier's shoes muddy, or how Milich Oppenheimer refuses to let the various citizens of Antei / Rikon / Teien call their towns by their original names. It stands to reason from the Empire's actions that Geil Rugner's army likely wasn't actually bloodthirsty, but rather villainized by the Empire.
I've said quite a lot here so I think this is a good stopping point, but I would love to open further dialogue to help you through these plotholes if it would help you with your War of Succession script.
Unfortunately the 5 days doesn't include any components of gathering troops, assembling gear and provision. It was started in the story that the 5 day timeframe would be after his departure. Once Teo was informed of the news, he said his goodbyes and immediately left the city. There was no prep time. How is this possible? Because it was stated in the story, that Ain Gide, who was a unit commander in Teo's army, had his cavalry force already outside the city at the time, and that they were the only force that Teo would take. No prep time needed as he was lucky that Ain Gides unit was already prepped. The 5 days travel time was explicitly referencing the time Teo would be marching on the road for after his departure.
As Teo was leaving the city riding out, Geil asked his advisor how long will it take. To which his advisor responded, it will take Teo 5 days to pass through the fortress of Kwaba. So again, the 5 days travel time is explicitly how long the marching distance between Gregminster and Kwaba is. And that's with a small cavalry force number just over 1,000 men, all of whom are cavalry.
After this scene there's a time skip. "Five days after Teo's departure" and that's the scene Geil makes his move. Teo had just crossed the Kwaba fortress.
5 days travel time.
But hypothetically, let's for argument sake say that the marching time was half that, that changes nothing, as the war was meant to last just under a year, while Gremio's timeline in Axe of the Oath puts the final battle of the war in under 3 weeks. In fact, if the marching time was half that, all that accomplishes is ending the war sooner, keeping the same problem. The timeline of the length of the war doesn't add up.
It's less about the marching times, they were merely being used as a reference to highlight the real issue, that Gremio's new backstory contradicts all known information about the war, and throws the timeline out the window. Also the final battle at Kwaba wasn't a siege on the fortress. It was a head on cavalry vs cavalry assault between Teo's armoured cavalry, and Schmidt's unarmoured cavalry. A single battle, not a long term siege.
I wouldn't take overworld travel time in the games to be a realistic measurement, Suikoden 1 was a small scale project, with a tiny development team and practically zero budget. It's a condensed experience. Geographically, Toran is around the same size as Dunan, maybe slightly bigger. We only get to see about two thirds of the country in the game. There is more to the country than is shown in the map in this video. This map only shows the regions we see in the game. There's a whole other region to the south that borders Kooluk, there's another whole region to the north west of Gregminster, and there's a whole region north and north east of the Dwarves. Toran is significantly bigger than people realise.
Also, it wasn't propaganda being spread about Geils army being bloodthirsty and laying waste, as it's confirmed that in addition to controlling most of the Imperial Army, Geil also hired a significant amount of bandits and pirates into his forces. And there are events of them looting and pillaging in the story. One of the reasons the war turned in Barbarosa's favour was because the populace grew tired of Geil's harsh and tyrannical rule.
The oppression of the populous you're referring to like the child being kicked for muddying the soldiers boots, Milich changes the town names, etc, these events all happened a few years after the War of Succession. That kind of corruption didn't start taking root until Barbarosa appointed Windy the court magician. Geil took power through an Abdication Trial, he forged his fathers will, and claimed the throne was stolen from him by his brother. He tricked the court, and the court sided with him.
The issue is Gremio's origin story. Before Axe of the Oath, Gremio origin story was that he was a soldier under Teo's command during the War of Succession, and Teo saved his life during a battle. Gremio would become a servant in the McDohl household after the war.
But in Axe of the Oath, he was never a soldier, but was already a servant.
Gremio's origin and the effects that has on the timeline in Axe of the Oath directly conflicts with already known and established information about the war.
Then there was The Brilliance of the Star Sword, which contains no contradictions with the original information about the war.
There's no issues with the travel times in general, they work if we follow the original information of the war. But they don't work with Gremio's contradictory origin story. Gremio having 2 different variations of his backstory is the problem and all other problems are caused by the contradiction in his two origin stories.
@@CulganValya All fair points. You are far more researched on the subject so I'm mostly going off of the content you've provided.
To answer your original question from the video then, I think your best path forward is likely to avoid lore inconsistencies presented by Axe of the Oath. I think the change in origin story for Gremio highlights some of the larger issues that can come about when extra content is provided to a cast of characters on this scale.
Thanks for taking the time to respond thoroughly. I didn't realize the scope of Toran and definitely would not have expected it to be as large as it is based on its presentation from the games.
In regards to the 2 Gremio stories, the first one is so much more believable.
I agree. Who would instantly hire some random stranger they just met while wandering around in a desert to raise their child? It's illogical. The only way it makes sense is for Teo to have hired him into his army, and then have the story naturally progress from there.
@@CulganValya Hahaha, right? "Oh you, the axe wielding man with the scar on his face...you seem nice and a little lost...Want to look after my son and live under my roof!? 😁😁😁👌✌️👍"
@@kingoverseas9052 That is pretty funny.
Actually selecting and assembling a fast elite force, provisioning them, gearing up mounts, organizing, and moving out would probably take 2 days and you'd leave on the third morning. So it's probably more about 2.5 days time from Gregminster to Kwaba. Assuming Teo, as talented as a general as he was, could have a blitz force assembled from a defending army to leave the day he got the message seems a bit much. Good video though! Always loved this game.
The story explicitly states 5 days after Teo's departure would be when Geil made his move. The preparation time to depart wasn't included in his travel time.
*Edit* It was also only the portion of his forces under Ain Gide's command, who were already outside the city, who would depart. So there wasn't much preparation involved.
@@CulganValya Ah, not having read what you did, I wasn't aware of that. Appreciate the update! :)
@@dragonnasxavier3473 No problem! But you are indeed correct about taking time to gather provisions, gear up and organise your army. It only reinforces that the 19 day timeline for the war in Axe of the Oath is impossible as it makes the other battles that happened within the war even more unlikely to have happened..
The problem with using Teo's travel time, is that it was a Forced March, without armor, being made by a Cavalry Division without any of their support staff and followers.
A forced march is literally moving as quickly as possible, with as little stops, detours and material as possible. Teo was required to move "Quick, fast and in a hurry" for that deployment.
Barbarossa's march was likely under far better conditions, and not a forced march.
@@61089loki I'm aware. That's why I kept saying "assuming they could move as fast as Teo", those times would be a best case scenario. But this is what makes the timeline even less possible in Axe of the Oath. Because if a forced march by cavalry is 5 days, under regular conditions covering that distance should take even longer. Thus making the movements of other characters in the war even more unlikely, and impossible to have happened within Axe of the Oaths timeframe.
@CulganValya being fair, the Gate Rune War/Toran Liberation War lasted 4 years, according to the timeline as well (two under Odessa's command, two under Tir's). Considering just how much trouble the Rebels had at the start, before finally pulling what should have been unachievable victories when Tir was given command by Odessa, and recruited Mathiu. Even those victories took a long time to set up and pull off. It' been a while since I played, but none of the major victories in suikoden 1 felt like they were easy wins, and you never really had the advantage in any of the war battles. Every victory felt earned, but like you came through by the skin of your teeth none the less. Wars with victories like that wind up with hea y attrition, which can result in manpower issues, War fatigue, supply line issues, etc which can also slow down troop movements.
The Succession War may also have faced similar problems for it's Heroes, as the Gate Rune Wars did for it's Heroes.
@@61089loki It's a wildly different comparison though. The Liberation Army was a ragtag bunch of rebels who were incredibly low in number, it tooks months of recruiting for them to even build a force strong enough to fight Kwanda's force on the field. Following the liberation of each region with timeskips and more recruitment, the merging and coordination of different rebel forces across the empire. That all takes time, making the several year long Gate Rune War logical.
While in Axe of the Oath, you're given an exact timeframe of when and where the final battle took place. Teo already had an assembled force in place. So unless a single head on cavalry vs cavalry charge battle took between 6-9 months to finish, it doesn't work. Gremio's different origin story in Axe of the Oath breaks the previously established lore and timeline of the war.
If Teo's army moved that slow with dragon horses, how slow do regular troops move?
It must have taken months for the matilda knights to reach Muse. No wonder no one wanted to help.
I just applied the same measurement on the world map to test this out and answer your question. Of course these are all rough estimates based off a line in a short story, and not to be taken as absolute fact. But, assuming all forces move as fast as Teo's cavalry.
It would take 8 days from Rock Axe to Muse. But if they rode from Highway Village, it'd be 5 days. And if they rode out from the border or a fort along the border, it'd be 3 - 3.5 days.
Anabelle says that the Highland Army will arrive in 5 days, which is the same time the Matilda Knights arrived at. So either they rode out from near the border, or they double timed the march from Rock Axe and made haste. But using that measurement, the Highland army could easily arrive in 2.5 days if they wanted to based on the distance between the Highland border and Muse.
She also says that it will take 7 days to assemble the entire State Army. Not possible. Applying that same measurement to the other cities.
Greenhill to Muse is 10 days.
Two River to Greenhill is 5 days, so that's 15 to Muse.
South Window, assuming they follow the land path by going through Radat and Toto, would take 14 days to reach Muse.
As for Tinto's forces. Roughly 10 days to reach Two River alone, so 25 days to reach Muse. This isn't even factoring in how slowly their force would move through the narrow mountain path.
You also have to factor in the travel time of sending a messenger ahead to the cities and ordering them to prepare their men, to have them ready to march. So add some extra days on top of each travel time.
Though if we dig this deep into numbers, we're reading too deeply into things we're not supposed to be reading into.
@@CulganValya who would have thought, some author flippantly wrote 5 days would have set off a chain reaction for us all.
Great video btw!
@@nathan3859 Just for the fun of it because your comment sparked some curiosity in me. I just redrew the lines on the Suikoden 2 map using the information given from Anabelle about the Highland army taking 5 days to reach Muse from the border. Again, this is just for reference using in game dialogue, not to be taken 100% seriously.
If it takes an already assembled and provisioned army 5 days to march from the Highland border to Muse.
Using that distance as a measurement, it would take 22 days to march from Greenhill to Muse, that's not including time needed to send a messenger back, and the days needed to gather and provision the men. Realistically you're looking at closer to 30 days for Greenhill alone.
For Tinto that would be roughly 43 days travel, not including time to send a messenger, or to assemble and provision the army. So in their case probably closer to 50 days to reach Muse.
Now maybe that 5 day marching time for the Highland Army includes stops along the way to occupy villages and towns and to station garrisons there. So let's say realistically the march takes half that time, so 2.5 days.
That would make it 11 days to march an army from Greenhill to Muse, and 21.5 days to march an army from Tinto to Muse.
So how would it be possible to assemble all of the States armies in 7 days? That also throws into question the 6 month duration of the war in Suikoden 2.
And, using the measurement of movement for the Highland army, which unlike Teo's all cavalry force, was a mixture of all troop types, so it would be a better indication of a real armies movement.
Applying that measurement on the map, it would take 10 days from Gregminster to Kwaba. Putting Barbarosa's travel time from Kunan to Pannu Yakuta castle closer to 39 days travel if he travelled with his force.
The travel times kill the stories. We really shouldn't be digging deep into these lines 😅
Is it possible there was a slight retcon?
If the original events got retconned in Axe of the Oath, then it got retconned again shortly after in The Brilliance of the Star Sword, because the timeline of Axe of the Oath is contradicted in that. The dialogue in The Brilliance of the Star Sword makes it sound like a long war, which would put it closer in line with the original information.
I like your idea so whatever you think would be the best possible content plus a narrative that seems most plausible would be the best way to go
@@harrywinkson9158 I think if I make the two changes that I proposed, I wouldn't be interfering with any lore from the original story. If I made those two minor alterations to the contradictions, I'd be erasing the contradictions by incorporating them into his previously established origin story in a natural way that fleshes out his story a little more. It keeps all stories and lore intact.
Axe of the Oath seems to be just dramatization of the event by someone who probably didn't get the memo. So I think it's better to stick with the canon that make the most sense, which is Gremio being picked up by Theo to become Soldier which later on would saved Tir.
Also yeah, war lasting only 3 weeks involving less than 10 thousands of men aren't big enough or impactful enough for other event to happen, it's a civik war between 2 emperors, I highly doubt it only lasted 3 weeks with only 1 battle happened and only involve 5000 soldiers at one side.
Jowston attacking also wouldn't make sense because if the conflict was dealt with that soon, they won't have room.
So it was said Tinto and South Window army was the one that deployed to occupy Kalekka, I'd assume it was still Granmeyer and Gustav as their Mayor, both of them are smart and cunning enough to understand that even if Scarlet Moon Empire was just recovered from civil war, it wasn't that bad of a war and that would be not a really good time to invade.
On the other hand, during the Gate Rune War, it was ironically the biggest opportunity for them to invade, which they never did until Matthiu sent Granmeyer a letter that Scarlet Moon Empire would attack them. So both Granmeyer and Gustav watched Scarlet Moon Empire closely but never actually invaded until Matthiu's fake news, which means they weren't that confident they could take the Scarlet Moon Empire but they had to act if they were about to be attacked, which means both South Window and Tinto's deduce that the war of succession damage was severe enough that they even dared to invade. That wouldn't make sense had the war quickly resolve like what was told in Axe of the Oath
Yeah, it's definitely a condensed and abridged version of events. It's only 44 pages long. Excluding pictures, 41 pages long, and the first 8 pages were primarily dialogue between members of the McDohl household before any events of the war happened. So that left only 33 pages for the story of the war.
I think I should treat Axe of the Oath as a supplemental material. Use the information to flesh out previously established lore, and ignore any events in the story that contradict previously established lore.
Correct, it was Granmeyer and Gustav. And you make excellent points.
It would take time for word to reach them of a civil war, they would've kept a close eye on events, then time for them to prepare, and time for them to march. Based on when their army arrived, it appears they didn't make their move until the end of the war when the Empire was at its weakest in an attempt to take advantage of the situation. So a short 3 week war as indicated by Axe of the Oath makes no sense.
Does it state that the travel time was 5 days or the time to gather the troops + travel? That might make it more reasonable. Still no solution though. Haven't played the game for a looong time
No prep time was included. The force he rode with were the troops under Ain Gide's command, who were already outside the city.
The story states that Geil would make his move 5 days after Teo's departure. So the 5 days is solely referencing the time it will take Teo and his men to reach Kwaba fortress.
Just take example of napoleon fleeing from Russia to reach Paris after he left his main troop.
He ran very fast
Even assuming he ran very fast, the timeline of events due to Gremio's involvement and contradictory backstory still prevent the majority of the war from happening.
I would keep everything as lore accurate as possible and that means w/e comes from Murayama's pen. If you want to blend elements from the short stories then just make sure to put a disclaimer in the beginning that this is the *likely* story of Gremio.
The problem is, the only information that came from Murayama's pen is what breadcrumbs of information about the war are in Suikoden 1. All of the other lore and supplemental material that actually fleshed out the war were written by others, and were only approved by him, that includes all contradictions. So Murayama himself wasn't even consistent within his own work as approved the contradictions.
The only things that seem to actually contradict the overall story of the war is the information surrounding Gremio's origin, with him being instantly hired as a servant instead of first being a soldier, and the timeline of events from Axe of the Oath.
While the events of The Brilliance of the Star Sword short story is completely accurate to the War of Succession and contains no contradictions.
If I make the two changes that I proposed, I'm not interfering with any established lore from the original story, but am instead erasing the contradictions from the short stories, by incorporating the contradictions into his previously established origin story in a natural way that fleshes out his story a little more. It keeps all stories and lore intact.
I would of course also put a disclaimer in the video stating I had to take minor liberties with Gremio's origin due to the contradictions surrounding the events.
@@CulganValya It sounds like you've figured out what you want to do. I support your decision👍
It's easy to assume that Barbarossa crossed the map as if he were the protagonist. It is also better to take the liberty of assuming that at the moment when no specific passage of time is mentioned, we can take the liberty of interpreting that everyone moved like the protagonist of the game 🤡🤡🤡🤡.
Seriously now... we'd better just stick with the cannon story.
But what's the "canon" story? The sources regarding the events of the war contradict each other. Even the information on the wiki's and fan sites contradict each other because the source information contradicts itself.
Is the original information canon and Axe of the Oath is to be ignored completely?
Did Axe of the Oath retcon the original information?
Was the retcon from Axe of the Oath then retconned again in The Brilliance of the Star Sword?
Was it not a retcon but a mistake and an oversight?
Maybe it was neither a retcon nor a mistake and the Axe of the Oath's only intended purpose was to highlight the bond between Gremio and Tir?
Are Axe of the Oath and The Brilliance of the Star Sword intended to be viewed as tiered canon stories? Treated as supplemental pieces that we use to pluck out information that doesn't contradict with the original information, while ignoring aspects that do contradict with original information?
All of these stories, information and contradictions, were signed off and approved by Murayama. He wasn't consistent with his own work and story surrounding the events of the war, making the "canon" story of the war a mess filled with contradictions.
@@CulganValya , Since we're having a serious discussion:
The correct approach would be to completely ignore any story that came after the original, especially when it's clear that the writer didn’t take the time to create a mental map of the entire canon.
If the creators of the additional content didn’t bother to ensure consistency and avoid mistakes, why should we, as fans, take their lack of professionalism seriously?
With this in mind, I believe we should focus on the canon story and only use what was released afterward if it aligns with the original. Any inconsistencies should be disregarded, as the necessary effort and respect for the details were clearly not given.
@@CulganValya , If it’s not too much trouble, though I know it could be, it would be really cool if you could create a mental map of all the events in the story in a way that eliminates inconsistencies, while also having the freedom to add what makes the most sense (since the writers of Axe of the Oath Then and The Brilliance of the Star Sword didn’t bother to do this). In fact, there’s a program that makes this easier since it automatically creates the branches as you go.
I think the assumption you're making about the war lasting 19 days is potentially flawed. It takes travel time into account but not how long it takes to actually fight the battles, or any time in between. "Less than a year" seems pretty accurate. It was a few engagements and troop movements. Teo's troop speed is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this argument and I think that's the likeliest point of error. Either it took him longer to reach Kwaba, or he stayed stationed there longer or his battles took longer etc. It feels most likely that Acts of the Oath is where the inconsistencies are coming from since it's based around Teo's actions, which likely were spaced out more evenly during everything else that happened. I think your plan for tiered canon works just fine. :)
Here's the exact breakdown of events in the Axe of the Oath short story.
Teo rides from the capital to the Gouran region to fight pirates.
5 days later, Tir is abducted, and Gremio is forced to deliver a message to Teo, meet us in 2 weeks at Kwaba Fortress, or Tir dies.
During the time Gremio is travelling to Kwaba, Teo is fighting the pirates. Gremio arrives at Teo's camp and delivers the message.
Those 2 weeks later, Teo meets Geils forces at Kwaba. It's a head on battle as Geil's general, Schmidt, only knows how to do a direct all out frontal assault.
Teo's armoured cavalry vs Schmidt's non-armoured cavalry, Teo's forces would decimate Schmidt's forces in a head on charge.
The battle at Kwaba Fortress between Teo and Schmidt is said to be the final battle of the War of Succession.
So unless a single battle, which was a head on charge between armoured vs non-armoured cavalry, involving less than 5,000 men can last months, there's no possible way it works.
The inconsistencies aren't based around Teo's actions.
The inconsistencies are from Gremio's timeline and origin. His origin in Axe of the Oath directly contradicts his previous origin of having served under Teo's command as a soldier in the war.
This altered origin is what breaks the entire timeline of the war. The travel times were simply being used to prove his contradictory origin breaks the timeline.
The Brilliance of the Star Sword short story backs up the original established story of the war.
While Axe of the Oath contradicts both.
Maybe teo was drinking all day 😅
I think it might've been the writers who were drinking all day 😀
More than likely the only channel on TH-cam, in all it's breadth, that is doing this much content on Genso Suikoden. I think considering the character lore thoughts, this does prove that either things were written at different times and no one was keeping track or retcons were made along the way without clarifying in other material. That seems a bit much to miss, especially when creating something like this. It's very likely with time and wanting to move to the next thing that any mistakes were left behind. The first thing that would come to my mind when making a sequel or multiple games is to make sure the timeline is correct, but of course, you can't fix what you've already put out to the public other than through a retcon.
They were all written by different authors, but approved by Murayama. They clearly weren't fact checking so any retcons would be accidental. Axe of the Oath contradicts the original story at times, but also fleshes it out at other times.
While The Brilliance of the Star Sword contains no contradictions to the original story, but does contradict the timeline of Axe of the Oath.
So if Axe of the Oath intentionally retconned something, those retcons were then retconned back to the original story in The Brilliance of the Star Sword.
I think the issues with Axe of the Oath were because it was a condensed and abridged version of a key aspect of the war, for the purpose of highlighting Gremio and Tir's connection and relationship. To show how their bond formed and why it was so strong.
And excluding pictures, the story was only 41 pages long. The first 8 or so being dialogue between the members of the McDohl household before any events of the war happened. Leaving only 33 pages for the story of the war.