And we women miss reading about manly men. Back in the 60's when my sister and I read The Lord of the Rings, we both fell in love with Strider. To us, Strider was the hero.
@@friendlyone2706 right? This stuff isn’t to women’s tastes, it’s what some women think other women will respect them for telling men to do! It’s so convoluted!
The Sherman tank was good strategically. Wars are usually won by a ton of good enough rather than a handful of hyper-engineered super weapons or super soldiers. Oh, dang, I just did the thing... I was also a Military History major at West Point. :)
Thomas, you’ve cracked the code on how to be an amazing writer for men-who knew all it took was a perfect blend of action, confidence, and strategically placed grunts? Your video had me ready to tackle my manuscript and a bear at the same time. If only typing made me feel as manly as watching your video did!
I'm a 66 year old man and love a lot of genres. I love C.J. Box books but then can read a Jane Austen book after it. I love Louise Penny mysteries but also John Grisham mysteries. I do love to learn things which is why my favorite read of the year is The Twenty-Ninth Day, the true story of a grizzly bear attack and the aftermath.
I have the feeling that more women read and enjoy books marketed to men than men read and enjoy books written for women. But a lot of women (me for example) also don't particularly enjoy most of the books being published and marketed to women nowadays (especially in the fantasy and sci-fi genre). Many seem very similar, have less and less worldbuilding, and sort of a juvenile writing style with a lot of emotions, but not always particularly well-written emotions.
I feel like a lot of publishers are too afraid of making readers feel stupid, and therefore many books that are published simply feel sort of dumb. I wish there was a larger variety of books being published and that big publishers dared to take a bit more risks..
@@KarlaBowdring honestly I went away and thought about this video and realized they weren't complaining about writing to men's tastes, they are complaining they don't have much in the hard sci fi range and they are upset that other books have emotions. I talked to a few men in my life and they laughed at the thought of books being devoid of emotion. Which to me just makes me think these men are just closet incels, considering they quote Jorden Peterson ... I'm probably not far wrong
@@dragonstooth4223 I wasn't able to watch this all the way through yet due to getting busy with work. My husband's favorite fantasy book series is "The Wheel of Time" which has a LOT of relationship stuff. Meanwhile, I don't read romance novels??? Because of the circles I run in, I can't really speak to general women's audience tastes in traditional publishing, which seems to be the main focus here. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I get to the end, even though some stuff rubbed me the wrong way, it's not good to put people down for liking things (even if it's someone like Jordan Peterson).
I'm in my 40s. Everyone I know my age and younger is reading Korean and Japanese light novel translations or other serials on websites like wattpad. Just some food for thought.
Had to laugh. In the 90's not a single publisher would touch my boy series, "The Incredible Worlds of Wally McDoogle" (even after amazing success of my vid series, McGee and Me). "Boy's don't read," they said. "And what do you have for boys?" I asked. "Nothing, because boys don't read." For grins I keep a contract from one publisher who wanted to change the title to "The Incredible Worlds of Wally and Molly McDoogle." Finally found one publisher who took the chance. Long story short: 28 volumes, 2.3 million copies and still going strong.
Yours is a variation of the Harry Potter story -- over 2 dozen publishers wouldn't publish it because "children don't read." Will the greedy, cowardly, too-often-seedy trend followers ever learn? I hope you stayed with your original publisher for that series. And I just checked your website. Dentist to filmmaker is an interesting goal transition shared by almost no one.
I read a lot of books (fiction and non) from the 1600s-1900s, they are verbose, they are filled with so much depth. And I can read them multiple times. A lot of modern writing I can go through once but struggle to repeat. A lot of it is flat (even the good stuff), which makes enthusiasm for this stuff hard. I wonder where the market is for deep and vast text that isn't obsessed with simplicity. I notice a lot of "writing advice" stresses avoiding the production of books that would not have been out of place in the late 1800s.
This is timely. I've been seriously considering where to find an agent/publisher when 90% of them (at least the ones I've found so far) are looking ONLY for female/minority/environment-centered stories.
It is a very limited and frustrating market with specific expectations these days. It's why I chose to go the self-pub route. My characters aren't self-inserts of some group to be represented.
Totally true and can be confirmed with a cursory Google search on the subject. Men are being wholly rejected out of hand by the big pubs because A) they're men and they "already have enough of those", and B) their stories "aren't inclusive enough and don't/won't appeal to a modern audience". They'd rather double and triple down on what doesn't sell instead of what does, all because they're in a race to see how many checkboxes they can check off. In some case, like one other commenter here made, they'll insist that you rewrite the manuscript, by doing any of the following: - make protagonist a female and/or POC and/or someone with a disability - gender/race swap this and that character to make it more inclusive - add this or that plot element about gender ideology or oppression or both - one or more of your characters need to be part of the Alphabet Mafia - your book cover MUST feature a female somewhere on it who is in the work - the main antagonist must be a white male and so stereotypical that it hurts (we're talking mustache twirling, tied to a railroad track, maniacal laugh kind of stereotypical) - if your antagonist is not a white male then you will not be considered - the manuscript MUST pass the Bechdel Test - your manuscript MUST go through at least two rounds of "sensitivity reading" - there MUST be a love/relationship/feeling dynamic which occupies a large portion of the work and if only one relationship then it MUST be a same-sex/non-binary relationship - all female characters have expansive speaking roles and none are relegated to furniture or cameos - no woman or POC will ever be bested by anyone other than themselves - they will always overcome And many many more. And what you end up with is an utterly unreadable steaming pile of shit. When I started to notice and then read article after article demonstrating how this shift has occurred and it taking place as we speak, I knew that if I EVER decided to write a manuscript, it would only ever be self-published and I'll take the loss of exposure over the loss of any real interest 10 times out of 10. I'd have to hope for organic interest to swell enough that word of mouth does the selling for me. But yeah, no way in Hell would I even consider a trad pub with one of the big houses for these reasons alone. A fire burns brightest in its natural state. Throw water on it, and you have no fire. So yeah, I'll leave my fire burning, thanks.
As much as I'd like to blame publishing and the players in it, I have to blame the men themselves first. Why? Because men don't read, and when they do read, it's nonfiction. If we want more male oriented books on the shelves, we need to reach out to our fellow men and instill the habit of reading male oriented fiction. (Note: I am posting this before I watch this video)
@@Beekeeper8011 As mentioned in the program, they do read fiction, preferably heavy on the info-dump type fiction, such as The Martian (about the botanist stranded on Mars) and the Sci Fi classic Neutron Star. Remember all the experts who claimed modern children no longer read? and then came Harry Potter and kids lined up around the block to get the edition and a sequel's popularity even figured in The Devil Wears Prada?
I’ve been getting really into books this last year. I stopped by the books section of target the other day and I think the way of kings was the only book for a male audience.
Stores have personalities reflective of the owner or the distant corporate head. If you have a local sporting goods store, see if they have a book section. If they do, bet you find different books.
As a gay novice author writing his first book, this speaks quite a bit of truth to me personally. I love “things” and “nerding” about them, but time and time again, I'm told not to go into crazy details when writing. After writing my first draft, I picked up Slow Horses, and after reading the first two chapters, I wanted so badly to add back those details I edited out! I do feel I have written down the middle, but I am also afraid that: 1. The amount of swearing and violence will turn away female readers (my mother didn't mind it, though) 2. A drag queen character who is so rich in detail and brings so much to my protagonist’s journey will turn away straight male readers 3. The blend of growth, change, emotion, detail, lore and touching on relationships and family will turn away both. A gritty crime thriller with a promiscuous NYC enforcer with PTSD and batting criminal politics and drug warfare seems to be a damn hard book to write!
This was so rich in information and inspirational imagination for how to reach the masculine audience. This is the first video I have seen of this channel and will definitely be subscribing.
Mine eyes have been opened. I'm a woman, and I realized that when I write women, I write stories that would resonate more with women, and the same idea with men and male characters. Seems obvious, but having the particulars pointed out about what men like and don't was a paradigm shift for me.
Thank you! This was awesome. I'm a woman but also resonate with so much of what you two said and how you would like fiction to be. I sorely miss the days of Heinlein, Asimov, or even Lee Child info-dumping. That kind of long "explanation break" was a large part of the charm of those books--plus techniques, settings and details of setting (whether from a strategic, practical, or aesthetic point of view), and so on. I roll my eyes at all the relational drama --though I definitely don't mind authors focusing on friendship. But I like the relational stuff understated--less is more. A hand on a shoulder when one's friend is flagging in confidence conveys so much more than chapters and chapters of interpersonal drama.
I am a woman and try to write stories with balanced tropes. I want to make it appealing for men and women alike by focusing on both perspectives. Well, at least I try to. 😂 I try to tell the stories from both points of view. I also have themes in there that men and women find appealing. A lot of suspense and horror elements as well as feelings and dilemmas. And I created "typical" characters. Both have their gender-typical characteristics. Men are men and women are women and I gave them strenghts and weaknesses as well. I dont turn the men in my stories into soyboys or muscle-packed simps, but they are...well,... MEN. And my women are far away from being badass, agressive and overpowered heroines. They are all normal people. I guess thats what turns most men off. Or women. That nowadays characters are far away from being realistic. It makes them less approachable. Thats why I love Stephen King books. His characters are normal people and there is a real feel to them. No matter if hes writing male or female characters. They are like people and not like an unfulfilled wish identity that so many authors seem to create. No matter what I write about - I need my characters to feel like normal people. Otherwise readers wont really care for them. You can write about pretty damn weird and crazy stuff, but if your characters are unrealisticly badass or react like no one would react, its very unlikely that people will get engaged into the story. That my two cents.
I'm with you! I'm writing historical fiction based on real people and real events, including both male and female main characters. The plot lines are fairly balanced, and there is a balance between action and emotions/relationships, given their relative importance in the overall novel. None of the characters are ideal or pure, and they are morally grey. This may disappoint people who want simple tropes and easy/pure escapism ("beach reading"). I am OK with that. Conversely, I believe the novel will be very immersive, very moving, very informative, and (most of all) readers will get value when they read it multiple times.
I'm a woman, and I just realized I read like a man. 😅 Perhaps because I cut my teeth on 19th century literature, pirate stories, and authors like Jules Verne, Tolstoy, and Victor Hugo. My favorite book is Melville' Whale. And I don't skip the technical chapters.
I'm with you. Which is why I'm trying to push the term "Geek Lit" to cover any genre with info dumps, which we geeks love. The fact that in the Geek World we're a minority doesn't make us less important. The great thing about Search Engine Controlled online marketing is the same book can sit on many shelves -- even Romantic Comedy can be Geek Lit.
This actually explains a lot about me. I like reading the hunger games, Percy Jackson, but I can’t get into famous works like Jane Eyre or Moby Dick, etc.
I published a hard science fiction novel 3 weeks ago and the feedback has been that while it's well written, it is dense and complex because of the detail about quantum physics and computer technology. This video has given me Hope that there's readers for it.
Thanks a ton for making this. I'm more than 2/3 done with my manuscript for a dark portal fantasy novel about a bereaved chemistry professor who dies fighting inside a war to avenge her family, and is then reborn to a magical world where she vows to protect those she's grown to love - only to unleash the same industrial echoes of war that ravaged her past. I intend to finish, edit, create chapter and cover art for it, and self-publish this before the end of the year. But I'm not alone since editing doesn't happen in a vacuum, and although I'm not in a position to have someone else edit my work entirely, it helps to gain editors' insight so I can refine the project myself. I feel so, enlightened from how you guys went about this discussion? I've essentially been writing a book that I'd personally love to read. It's been the perfect "grounds" for utilizing all the odd "useless" knowledge sitting in the back of my head, and considering that my protagonist takes the opportunity to go through what is essentially a 'tech-tree' over the course of a century. I grew up loving history and technology, and now I get to marry those two with compelling characters full of action and agency in a fantasy setting alongside a plot that handles themes of change which I find evermore relevant today. Although, I wouldn't dismiss most of the writing advice out there. There's no shortage of useful resources to help us improve our craft, even on TH-cam. Knowing why and how any advice works to the different audiences they may target is a good way to adjust our projects to better engage with those we aim at. I'm hoping that my book is something both men and women can enjoy, and I'd personally rather not alienate either when I can distinguish what turns off both audiences and avoid such pitfalls through compromise. Not too technical or info-dumpy for women but definitely enough to drive the plot and tickle autists' interests like myself, while having just the right amount of interpersonal and intrapersonal conflict that it doesn't become overly sappy or even melodramatic for most men. My first-person protagonist hates war, but she also has the technical skill and experience to be the best at it. Sure it might be worrisome that I'm not diving so deep into one target demographic, but it's well rounded off enough for me to personally enjoy and I think that's enough - both men and women seemed to be engaged with the characters and premise amongst the ones I've spoken about it with. Again, thank you for posting this interview.
Men do like fiction. I write for a few YT channels - great guys run them. The listners are mostly other men. They've all helped me immensely. First book out next year!!😊😊😊
As a woman, I read lots of thrillers including the Tom Clancy novels and love them. I love Daniel Silva, David Baldacci, Jeffrey Deaver, and other male thriller authors that have lots of details behind what's going on. For example Jeffrey Deaver's Burning Wire with lots of information about electricity which I loved and his Colter Shaw series, which has become a TV series, with information on how he tracks somebody and I loved it. And I love Marvel and DC movies, Tolkien's LOTRs, and I don't like Bridgerton at all.
I think you're right, I have recently begun to read sixties adventure novels. It is indeed quite a relief to find an explicitly male atmosphere. However, there is a risk of turning the difference into a caricature, which would be detrimental to men. For instance: - Enticing men not to pay attention to what is traditionally considered female, but in reality useful to both. Like appearance or hygiene or self respect in general. - Enticing men not to pay attention to what is neutral. Many daily chores seem to me neutral. - Enticing men not to pay attention to social interactions. As if we didn't have a conscience. - Enticing men to view women as innocent cuddly creatures, incapable of any agency, efficiency or brutality. In short the caricature hero would be an expert on toolbox stuff, devoid of any clue on social evolutions, the law, the economy, and moral or existential issues in general. The sort of guy who when visiting the grave of his grandparents, would only be capable of reflecting on the best way to clean it.
"Didn't read until 8 or 9" Norway starts school at an early age, but does not teach reading until age 8 (Doesn't forbid, just doesn't focus on reading until then.). There's a development in the brain that often doesn't happen in boys until age 8. In America, those few boys for whom reading-ready brains happen older (age 8), are already labeled reading challenged, or possible "slower". They are self-identified dummies. In Norway, that "I'm stupid" trauma rarely happens. If you can't think about what to teach if you're not teaching reading, demand a refund from every school you attended.
I'm so thankful I was homeschooled! Government schools would have ruined me. As it was, I got an excellent education and graduated Cum Laude from University.
@@Novel-Marketing In first grade I was the worst reader until about a month before the school year ended I broke my left arm. Early '50's, no one made the connection with my almost overnight improved ability. The 60 yr old teacher told my Mom that in all her years teaching she had never seen such an extreme turn around. When over 20 years later I learned about mixed brain dominance and delayed brain maturation, I remembered. Why are such ideas still not fully applied?
Men love to learn. This is why I enjoy Dan Brown's books so much even though I'm not an avid reader of his genre. He always has interesting things to say in his books, and I feel like I come away a little bit more informed. That's not to say that I only read books that have info dumps, or that all info dumping is good, but strategic info dumps can definitely appeal to men. For me, the biggest turn off in a book is the woke ideology that the big 5 try to shove down readers throats. I don't agree with it, I don't enjoy reading it, so when I encounter it, it's an automatic DNF. I will say that having a lead character with a deep emotional wound can still be interesting, but it needs to be handled differently for men than it is for women. Batman is an amazing character with a very deep emotional wound. What makes it work for men though is the concept of show-don't-tell. Batman doesn't brood over his past constantly. You see instead how that past influences the decisions and actions that he takes today. The point of the story isn't Batman overcoming his deep emotional wound, it's Batman overcoming the villain and saving the city of Gotham. His deep emotional wound is only expressed in the form of dark, cool gadgets, and choice of lair, costume and intensity of speech.
Some of us are nerds & geeks (the terms didn't exist when I was in grade school, but I was one, a very female one (a true minority back then), but still one. After listening to this talk, I've decided that hard sci fi should be under Geek Lit, along with any other genre written with massive info dumps. We geeks love to info dump because that's what we like to read, even in romantic comedy we enjoy learning new stuff, it's like a bonus to the story. With key word activated search engines, let's make "Geek Lit" a known term! We are an underserved ultimate minority and our voices deserve to be heard! (copied from an answer I gave to another commentator. During our on line conversation, I discovered the above is why, or part of why, I find this talk the most thought provoking I've so far heard from Novel Marketing -- and that says a lot because from when I first stumbled on them, My first thought was "This guy's brilliant.")
I wonder if a way to bridge this gap in a novel (supposing someone wants to aim at both men and women) would be to show the utility of relationships. Then you have the problem-solving/technical aspect ("I need to have the Grand Vizier on my side, because otherwise their cavalry will wipe us out from the south) paired with the relational ("The way to get the Grand Vizier on my side is through his soft spot for X"). Would this split the difference and make everyone unhappy, or is it a potential path to someone who doesn't want to go hardcore one direction or the other?
Super interesting. I've started to avoid reading books by female authors. Too many of the details don't interest me at all... Aggravating instead of captivating like Larry Correa. I feel seen as a reader👍
A lot of people are rejecting female authors for much the same reason. The stories all read the same, and they're all woke as Hell if they're not "Mommy Pr0n". YAWN.
Bummer. I'm a female writer, but I write many male characters, and they are front and center of many of my stories. I agree the market is saturated with gobbledygook. Also, most "female" humor doesn't appeal to men. I won't try to sell you on my novel or anything, but there are a ton of us indies that are writing stuff that the Big 5 won't touch. Sci-fi horror with women who are strong-willed, funny, active (to a fault, in my protag's case), and who eff up their lives because of the "right" choices they've made. Or maybe that's just me? So what would you recommend that I read? Because I like fiction written by male authors, too.
@@5Gburn I like Larry Correa, Craig Alanson , bary eisler. I think they do a great job with understanding the SPECIFIC equipment needed, what's available, what they'd rather have and why. And tactics, they come up with pretty good battle strategies and sorta discuss other tactics previously used or an idea that'd work if conditions were manipulated a little bit. My aunt will roll her eyes and fade out when I get into details of what makes a vehicle perfect for some task or environment. Just don't be my aunt, show knowledgeable understanding how the details effect the outcome. Example, line of off road trucks came to a stop because the leader had forgotten to lock in his hubs and got stuck in the very first real "puddle". So driver looks to see if he can see the exhaust. It's underwater, blowing bubbles, so he leaves it running as climbs out window onto the hood and strips down, climbs down tire into the water locks the hub, locked the other hub. Gave the guy in the truck behind him the finger for laughing. Tosses clothes in truck, climbs back in and thinks about painting Frank's (guy behind laughing) truck in 2 dig before he puts it back in 4 high to pull out, but as satisfying as that'd be there's no sense in getting frank riled up this early. So he rolls up the windows and back and forth once gets him enough momentum to climb out, because tire speed wasn't enough.
@@dylanslater1360First, thanks for the recs. I'll go look them up! I 100% agree about needing events to logic out. Even with fictional equipment and science, the reader needs to be able to think with it. (Which is how I found the math error in The Martian. Gave it a pass, though, because everything else was perfect.) Besides all that, I think what's missing in a lot of modern fiction is a way to connect the dots between events that don't play out in quick succession. Fine details aren't given, so how is the reader supposed to know that such-and-such city is also called something else, and that's important because... And there's not nearly enough relevant in-scene tracking, which is a part of what you described. Total agreement. Thanks for putting in the time to give a great example!
I think video games and p* absorb their attention and publishers don’t publish what they like, many authors of books popular among men published in the last 20 years say most publishers rejected them.
Read Bill Meyers comment above. Most publishers rejected his series about a boy because "boys don't read." Finally found a publisher, sold over 2 million copies. He was NOT an unknown at the time, had a proven track record, but still had trouble getting even one taker.
You're wrong. Our mothers tell us that when we're teens, warning us those books do not prepare for real dating. So far, not one generation has listened until too late... 🙂
Thing is people used to say this, but after a while we stopped and became more accepting of what women enjoy. The problem is that now that women dominate the book industry they're not accepting what we are into
@@friendlyone2706 Exactly! To be even more frank, reading is for pleasure and pleasure sells. People need enjoyment in their life. Only the most miserable fanatic would believe otherwise!
I read fairly regularly as well..... books that were published 15+ years ago, including classic lit. I still look for good modern stories, but its really a mixed bag.
Over the weekend, I attended two panels at a con from authors who have sold tens of millions of copies of their books and translated into dozens of languages. Every author gave the same advice. Do not submit novels with info dumps or detailed descriptions that are more than a paragraph or so because first time authors will never get an agent and established authors will have those passages cut from their editors. Genre authors said you cannot get published these days if your books do not keep a fast pace because everyone has ADHD and test readers will rate those paragraphs down. One author has published 45 books and sold 50 million copies. He said the industry has changed. Write the book you want to write. But good luck getting published.
I have always heard the same advice, and followed it. And have sold very few fiction books. I prefer my info dumps woven into the story, but love books with them. Even cozy mysteries and historical romances that casually give accurate facts do better...Has the "never info dump" advice been given so often that even successful authors have become blind to components of their own success?
Apparently, I'm an alien 😂 As a woman, I love the nuclear bomb example. I find Tom Clancy books boring because of the detailed description, and I'm thinking get to the point. I would skip those pages.
I'm a massive fantasy reader, and a lot of books nowadays want to empower women and show them to be better than men. However, the only way they do this is to make the men appear weak and stupid. It's insulting and unrealistic. So my main reasons are these: - Writers not knowing how to make strong female characters without making the men weak, just so they can look strong comparatively. - Writers not knowing what makes a strong character in general, with no character development. Women can be strong characters without the men having to appear weak. Look at Éowyn from Lord of the Rings. Look at any woman written by Hayao Miyazaki - Nausicaa, Princess Mononoke, or Spirited away.
Conan is not a generation older than LotR. First, Tolkien was older than Howard (born 1892 vs. 1906). While LotR was begun after Howard's death (Howard dies in 1936 while Tolkien began "The New Hobbit" in 1937) the larger legendarium that LotR is part of first dates to 1917. Even if we isolate LotR it's publication was a mere 18 years after Howard's death. If anything, LotR, with so much rooted in pre-WW1 England and Tolkien's experience in the trenches, is from a generation before Conan. But I think the core differences are not of generation per se but place as well as time. A man who came of age in WW1 England is going to write very different tales from a man who came of age in 1920s Texas.
The men in the video really simplified male/female devision putting female books largely in romance category and saying that women are drawn to emations and transitional roles. They sound like one of the countles hyper masculine podcastrs that live in their own buble. Women i know read all sorts of books with majority of men i know not reading at all or reading mostly non-fiction because it is more "informative".
The paradox isn’t about one specific industry and region, it’s that generally as equality and freedom of choice increases, so does the (limited!) degree to which people gravitate toward “gender coded” careers. There is another paradox, similar, where visible, social, gender expression becomes more pronounced as a society is freed from subsistence and people get choices other than “woman in home, man in fields”.
@@WR3CK4G3firstandonly Let's not move the goalposts. The video creator specifically listed nursing as an example. Also engineering. The thing is, if you look at those two fields, you'll find the opposite of what he's saying is true. Compared to 50 years ago, nursing and engineering are much less gender coded now.
@@ComedorDelricothe studies the host was referring to are in specifically the most egalitarian countries, which includes Scandinavian countries but not necessarily countries like the US .
Everything is so gynocentric these days. All of the accidental detectives and cozy sleuths are female protagonists even when the novels are written by men. When I finally find a good book with a relatable male lead, Goodreads/AMZ can only recommend books with female leads - regardless of genre. All the more aggravating for traditionally male dominated genres like military sci-fi or post-apocalyptic. Women have infiltrated everything and when they talk about 'equality' they're never interested in reducing the number of female nurses or hiring male teachers. They aren't writing adventure stories but they've co-opted the tropes (like pirates or pilots) for romance novels. I've always understood that erotic fiction and romance novels are just porn for women.
It's a good thing that everything is gynocentric. People have finally realized that male writing is worthless, thank goodness for that. And yes, equality isn't the thing we should be striving for, because women are just better at everything than men, sorry
This is a little weird to me, to be quite honest. I'm a man and I read a lot, when I say that I mean like three or four books a week. Now, I know I'm not exactly the target audience, since I'm bisexual and not strictly straight, but (maybe it's just me in a bubble) I have three very close straight friends who read as much as I do, if not more. And I also don't think that me being bisexual makes that much of a difference, I like war literature, science fiction and fantasy for example, which are genres that men commonly consume more, I believe.
I’ve written a novel for men (supposedly) and can’t get a literary agent, in part because literary agencies are dominated by women whose top fiction “wants” are romances, fantasy, romantasy, “women’s stories” and domestic thrillers. I’m not a woman hater but I’m frustrated by the lack of male representation in publishing these days. I’ve written an international thriller with organized crime, adventure, espionage, high tech, exotic settings and geopolitical intrigue inspired by the current conflict in the South China Sea. I guess that’s not what the publishers want. So, I guess I’ll self-publish at the risk of it sinking without a trace. Let me know if you’d read it.
While I appreciate your discussion and insights, it would have been nice if you stepped out of the dichotomy of "male stories/readers" vs. "female stories/readers". There is a whole universe of stories that span the interests and values of both male and female readers, and they may offer "affordances" for different readers to value and appreciate different things. As evidence, I offer the Christian New Testament. I think the evidence is strong that both men and women, over many for many centuries, have found the stories and storytelling in the New Testament to be interesting and compelling. Same could probably be said for stories in other religious or spiritual traditions, and even folk tales. I also think some of your points were too simplistic. You talk a lot about how men appreciate and talk about sports (formations, equipment, plays) but you leave out how they experience the game while watching in a group. Fans watching a game at a sports bar will spontaneously "high five" with strangers when the home team scores, which is a very emotional, very relational dynamic. Also, notice how sports broadcasters interview players after the game. They usually ask "feeling" questions rather than technical+tactical questions. "How did it feel when ...?" and "How does this victory rank in your career?" Last, even in the "pure masculine" stories, emotions and relations are vital, even if they are derived from the action or the "facts of the case". The "hero" will fall apart pretty quickly if his emotional support system collapses along with his sense of self.
I came in hoping for realistic advice on what the current male readership is looking for. Instead I got some awkward political/manosphere talking points.
So the idea the girls and women read much more than boys and men has been true for a lot longer than the current system of writing and publishing, or the current round of men against women bs. It's about more than what types of books are being written. Do men read different things than women? Sure, but that does not account for the numbers. You will probably find more men listening to audible non-fiction.
I came here out of curiosity. I wanted to know what men want. Then you started off by saying that anyone who disagrees with you is triggered, rather than having good reasons for disagreeing with you. That's not a good way to gain credibility.
An important conversation in an age where maleness and masculinity are disparaged.
And we women miss reading about manly men. Back in the 60's when my sister and I read The Lord of the Rings, we both fell in love with Strider. To us, Strider was the hero.
@@friendlyone2706 right? This stuff isn’t to women’s tastes, it’s what some women think other women will respect them for telling men to do! It’s so convoluted!
Oh, this discussion sounds awesome, and I'm only 5 minutes in!
Now I understand why a lot of writing advice doesn't resonate with me. Great interview!
The Sherman tank was good strategically. Wars are usually won by a ton of good enough rather than a handful of hyper-engineered super weapons or super soldiers.
Oh, dang, I just did the thing...
I was also a Military History major at West Point. :)
Please stop doing the thing. No one cares. That's one of the many reasons women are better at writing than men
Thomas, you’ve cracked the code on how to be an amazing writer for men-who knew all it took was a perfect blend of action, confidence, and strategically placed grunts? Your video had me ready to tackle my manuscript and a bear at the same time. If only typing made me feel as manly as watching your video did!
I'm a 66 year old man and love a lot of genres. I love C.J. Box books but then can read a Jane Austen book after it. I love Louise Penny mysteries but also John Grisham mysteries. I do love to learn things which is why my favorite read of the year is The Twenty-Ninth Day, the true story of a grizzly bear attack and the aftermath.
This was a great conversation! Took a lot of notes, thank you. This topic hits very close to home 🥊
I have the feeling that more women read and enjoy books marketed to men than men read and enjoy books written for women. But a lot of women (me for example) also don't particularly enjoy most of the books being published and marketed to women nowadays (especially in the fantasy and sci-fi genre). Many seem very similar, have less and less worldbuilding, and sort of a juvenile writing style with a lot of emotions, but not always particularly well-written emotions.
I feel like a lot of publishers are too afraid of making readers feel stupid, and therefore many books that are published simply feel sort of dumb. I wish there was a larger variety of books being published and that big publishers dared to take a bit more risks..
Children and teens are motivated by emotion. Adults temper their reactions with facts, especially those facts tempered by life experience.
For real. Where's my hard sci-fi with manned robot fights (i.e. VOTOMS)?
@@KarlaBowdring honestly I went away and thought about this video and realized they weren't complaining about writing to men's tastes, they are complaining they don't have much in the hard sci fi range and they are upset that other books have emotions.
I talked to a few men in my life and they laughed at the thought of books being devoid of emotion. Which to me just makes me think these men are just closet incels, considering they quote Jorden Peterson ... I'm probably not far wrong
@@dragonstooth4223 I wasn't able to watch this all the way through yet due to getting busy with work. My husband's favorite fantasy book series is "The Wheel of Time" which has a LOT of relationship stuff. Meanwhile, I don't read romance novels??? Because of the circles I run in, I can't really speak to general women's audience tastes in traditional publishing, which seems to be the main focus here. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I get to the end, even though some stuff rubbed me the wrong way, it's not good to put people down for liking things (even if it's someone like Jordan Peterson).
This was brilliant. More please :)
I'm in my 40s. Everyone I know my age and younger is reading Korean and Japanese light novel translations or other serials on websites like wattpad. Just some food for thought.
You had me at "men and women are different."
Had to laugh. In the 90's not a single publisher would touch my boy series, "The Incredible Worlds of Wally McDoogle" (even after amazing success of my vid series, McGee and Me). "Boy's don't read," they said. "And what do you have for boys?" I asked. "Nothing, because boys don't read." For grins I keep a contract from one publisher who wanted to change the title to "The Incredible Worlds of Wally and Molly McDoogle." Finally found one publisher who took the chance. Long story short: 28 volumes, 2.3 million copies and still going strong.
Yours is a variation of the Harry Potter story -- over 2 dozen publishers wouldn't publish it because "children don't read." Will the greedy, cowardly, too-often-seedy trend followers ever learn?
I hope you stayed with your original publisher for that series.
And I just checked your website. Dentist to filmmaker is an interesting goal transition shared by almost no one.
Does that mean you’re a millionaire?
@@dcle944 Well at least we got my little track home in SoCal paid off.
We used to watch McGee and Me in Sunday School - great series!
I loved this series growing up! Honestly I think about the hot air balloon one about once per week, and the lesson about the gauges.
Great, great talk. More. More.
I read a lot of books (fiction and non) from the 1600s-1900s, they are verbose, they are filled with so much depth.
And I can read them multiple times.
A lot of modern writing I can go through once but struggle to repeat.
A lot of it is flat (even the good stuff), which makes enthusiasm for this stuff hard.
I wonder where the market is for deep and vast text that isn't obsessed with simplicity.
I notice a lot of "writing advice" stresses avoiding the production of books that would not have been out of place in the late 1800s.
This is timely. I've been seriously considering where to find an agent/publisher when 90% of them (at least the ones I've found so far) are looking ONLY for female/minority/environment-centered stories.
And sometimes demanding a good story be rewritten for THAT token victim.
It is a very limited and frustrating market with specific expectations these days. It's why I chose to go the self-pub route. My characters aren't self-inserts of some group to be represented.
Totally true and can be confirmed with a cursory Google search on the subject. Men are being wholly rejected out of hand by the big pubs because A) they're men and they "already have enough of those", and B) their stories "aren't inclusive enough and don't/won't appeal to a modern audience". They'd rather double and triple down on what doesn't sell instead of what does, all because they're in a race to see how many checkboxes they can check off. In some case, like one other commenter here made, they'll insist that you rewrite the manuscript, by doing any of the following:
- make protagonist a female and/or POC and/or someone with a disability
- gender/race swap this and that character to make it more inclusive
- add this or that plot element about gender ideology or oppression or both
- one or more of your characters need to be part of the Alphabet Mafia
- your book cover MUST feature a female somewhere on it who is in the work
- the main antagonist must be a white male and so stereotypical that it hurts (we're talking mustache twirling, tied to a railroad track, maniacal laugh kind of stereotypical) - if your antagonist is not a white male then you will not be considered
- the manuscript MUST pass the Bechdel Test
- your manuscript MUST go through at least two rounds of "sensitivity reading"
- there MUST be a love/relationship/feeling dynamic which occupies a large portion of the work and if only one relationship then it MUST be a same-sex/non-binary relationship
- all female characters have expansive speaking roles and none are relegated to furniture or cameos
- no woman or POC will ever be bested by anyone other than themselves - they will always overcome
And many many more.
And what you end up with is an utterly unreadable steaming pile of shit. When I started to notice and then read article after article demonstrating how this shift has occurred and it taking place as we speak, I knew that if I EVER decided to write a manuscript, it would only ever be self-published and I'll take the loss of exposure over the loss of any real interest 10 times out of 10. I'd have to hope for organic interest to swell enough that word of mouth does the selling for me. But yeah, no way in Hell would I even consider a trad pub with one of the big houses for these reasons alone. A fire burns brightest in its natural state. Throw water on it, and you have no fire. So yeah, I'll leave my fire burning, thanks.
As much as I'd like to blame publishing and the players in it, I have to blame the men themselves first.
Why?
Because men don't read, and when they do read, it's nonfiction.
If we want more male oriented books on the shelves, we need to reach out to our fellow men and instill the habit of reading male oriented fiction.
(Note: I am posting this before I watch this video)
@@Beekeeper8011 As mentioned in the program, they do read fiction, preferably heavy on the info-dump type fiction, such as The Martian (about the botanist stranded on Mars) and the Sci Fi classic Neutron Star.
Remember all the experts who claimed modern children no longer read? and then came Harry Potter and kids lined up around the block to get the edition and a sequel's popularity even figured in The Devil Wears Prada?
I’ve been getting really into books this last year. I stopped by the books section of target the other day and I think the way of kings was the only book for a male audience.
Stores have personalities reflective of the owner or the distant corporate head. If you have a local sporting goods store, see if they have a book section. If they do, bet you find different books.
wow, that was really refreshing (subbed)
Man (pun), what a great podcast interview!!!
As a gay novice author writing his first book, this speaks quite a bit of truth to me personally. I love “things” and “nerding” about them, but time and time again, I'm told not to go into crazy details when writing. After writing my first draft, I picked up Slow Horses, and after reading the first two chapters, I wanted so badly to add back those details I edited out!
I do feel I have written down the middle, but I am also afraid that:
1. The amount of swearing and violence will turn away female readers (my mother didn't mind it, though)
2. A drag queen character who is so rich in detail and brings so much to my protagonist’s journey will turn away straight male readers
3. The blend of growth, change, emotion, detail, lore and touching on relationships and family will turn away both.
A gritty crime thriller with a promiscuous NYC enforcer with PTSD and batting criminal politics and drug warfare seems to be a damn hard book to write!
This was so rich in information and inspirational imagination for how to reach the masculine audience. This is the first video I have seen of this channel and will definitely be subscribing.
I thought of Jurrasic Park too. Full of info dumps and it was great.
The recent Napoleon movie was a perfect example of this. A great opportunity to dig into his battle tactics, but we got his love life instead.
Fabulous interview! This was so helpful for me as I have been struggling with this very issue. Thank you!
Mine eyes have been opened. I'm a woman, and I realized that when I write women, I write stories that would resonate more with women, and the same idea with men and male characters. Seems obvious, but having the particulars pointed out about what men like and don't was a paradigm shift for me.
Thank you! This was awesome. I'm a woman but also resonate with so much of what you two said and how you would like fiction to be. I sorely miss the days of Heinlein, Asimov, or even Lee Child info-dumping. That kind of long "explanation break" was a large part of the charm of those books--plus techniques, settings and details of setting (whether from a strategic, practical, or aesthetic point of view), and so on. I roll my eyes at all the relational drama --though I definitely don't mind authors focusing on friendship. But I like the relational stuff understated--less is more. A hand on a shoulder when one's friend is flagging in confidence conveys so much more than chapters and chapters of interpersonal drama.
I am a woman and try to write stories with balanced tropes. I want to make it appealing for men and women alike by focusing on both perspectives. Well, at least I try to. 😂
I try to tell the stories from both points of view. I also have themes in there that men and women find appealing. A lot of suspense and horror elements as well as feelings and dilemmas.
And I created "typical" characters. Both have their gender-typical characteristics. Men are men and women are women and I gave them strenghts and weaknesses as well. I dont turn the men in my stories into soyboys or muscle-packed simps, but they are...well,... MEN.
And my women are far away from being badass, agressive and overpowered heroines.
They are all normal people.
I guess thats what turns most men off. Or women.
That nowadays characters are far away from being realistic. It makes them less approachable.
Thats why I love Stephen King books. His characters are normal people and there is a real feel to them. No matter if hes writing male or female characters. They are like people and not like an unfulfilled wish identity that so many authors seem to create.
No matter what I write about - I need my characters to feel like normal people. Otherwise readers wont really care for them. You can write about pretty damn weird and crazy stuff, but if your characters are unrealisticly badass or react like no one would react, its very unlikely that people will get engaged into the story.
That my two cents.
I'm with you! I'm writing historical fiction based on real people and real events, including both male and female main characters. The plot lines are fairly balanced, and there is a balance between action and emotions/relationships, given their relative importance in the overall novel. None of the characters are ideal or pure, and they are morally grey. This may disappoint people who want simple tropes and easy/pure escapism ("beach reading"). I am OK with that. Conversely, I believe the novel will be very immersive, very moving, very informative, and (most of all) readers will get value when they read it multiple times.
Great interview/discussion.
I'm a woman, and I just realized I read like a man. 😅 Perhaps because I cut my teeth on 19th century literature, pirate stories, and authors like Jules Verne, Tolstoy, and Victor Hugo. My favorite book is Melville' Whale. And I don't skip the technical chapters.
This is where generalising about gender is not appropriate unless they are specified as generalisations, as there outliers
I'm with you. Which is why I'm trying to push the term "Geek Lit" to cover any genre with info dumps, which we geeks love. The fact that in the Geek World we're a minority doesn't make us less important. The great thing about Search Engine Controlled online marketing is the same book can sit on many shelves -- even Romantic Comedy can be Geek Lit.
Dude, I've been following you for over a year to just now realize you're a conservative. Absolute chad. Stay winning, kings.
As a male romantacy author, this video hits home.
This actually explains a lot about me. I like reading the hunger games, Percy Jackson, but I can’t get into famous works like Jane Eyre or Moby Dick, etc.
I published a hard science fiction novel 3 weeks ago and the feedback has been that while it's well written, it is dense and complex because of the detail about quantum physics and computer technology. This video has given me Hope that there's readers for it.
New subscriber.. You had me at "men and women are different."
This was great information. The female author here of cozy mystery. I follow Author Media and Thomas Umstattd.
Thanks a ton for making this. I'm more than 2/3 done with my manuscript for a dark portal fantasy novel about a bereaved chemistry professor who dies fighting inside a war to avenge her family, and is then reborn to a magical world where she vows to protect those she's grown to love - only to unleash the same industrial echoes of war that ravaged her past. I intend to finish, edit, create chapter and cover art for it, and self-publish this before the end of the year. But I'm not alone since editing doesn't happen in a vacuum, and although I'm not in a position to have someone else edit my work entirely, it helps to gain editors' insight so I can refine the project myself.
I feel so, enlightened from how you guys went about this discussion? I've essentially been writing a book that I'd personally love to read. It's been the perfect "grounds" for utilizing all the odd "useless" knowledge sitting in the back of my head, and considering that my protagonist takes the opportunity to go through what is essentially a 'tech-tree' over the course of a century. I grew up loving history and technology, and now I get to marry those two with compelling characters full of action and agency in a fantasy setting alongside a plot that handles themes of change which I find evermore relevant today.
Although, I wouldn't dismiss most of the writing advice out there. There's no shortage of useful resources to help us improve our craft, even on TH-cam. Knowing why and how any advice works to the different audiences they may target is a good way to adjust our projects to better engage with those we aim at. I'm hoping that my book is something both men and women can enjoy, and I'd personally rather not alienate either when I can distinguish what turns off both audiences and avoid such pitfalls through compromise. Not too technical or info-dumpy for women but definitely enough to drive the plot and tickle autists' interests like myself, while having just the right amount of interpersonal and intrapersonal conflict that it doesn't become overly sappy or even melodramatic for most men. My first-person protagonist hates war, but she also has the technical skill and experience to be the best at it. Sure it might be worrisome that I'm not diving so deep into one target demographic, but it's well rounded off enough for me to personally enjoy and I think that's enough - both men and women seemed to be engaged with the characters and premise amongst the ones I've spoken about it with.
Again, thank you for posting this interview.
Men do like fiction. I write for a few YT channels - great guys run them. The listners are mostly other men. They've all helped me immensely. First book out next year!!😊😊😊
Classic horror novels, Grimdark fantasy novels, classic indie comics before the year 2000 and seinen manga is where the good stuff for men is imo.
As a woman, I read lots of thrillers including the Tom Clancy novels and love them. I love Daniel Silva, David Baldacci, Jeffrey Deaver, and other male thriller authors that have lots of details behind what's going on. For example Jeffrey Deaver's Burning Wire with lots of information about electricity which I loved and his Colter Shaw series, which has become a TV series, with information on how he tracks somebody and I loved it. And I love Marvel and DC movies, Tolkien's LOTRs, and I don't like Bridgerton at all.
I don't read novels because I prefer short fiction, just my preference.
Everything they said can be applied to short stories.
Excellent podcast, guys.
I think you're right, I have recently begun to read sixties adventure novels. It is indeed quite a relief to find an explicitly male atmosphere.
However, there is a risk of turning the difference into a caricature, which would be detrimental to men. For instance:
- Enticing men not to pay attention to what is traditionally considered female, but in reality useful to both. Like appearance or hygiene or self respect in general.
- Enticing men not to pay attention to what is neutral. Many daily chores seem to me neutral.
- Enticing men not to pay attention to social interactions. As if we didn't have a conscience.
- Enticing men to view women as innocent cuddly creatures, incapable of any agency, efficiency or brutality.
In short the caricature hero would be an expert on toolbox stuff, devoid of any clue on social evolutions, the law, the economy, and moral or existential issues in general. The sort of guy who when visiting the grave of his grandparents, would only be capable of reflecting on the best way to clean it.
"Didn't read until 8 or 9"
Norway starts school at an early age, but does not teach reading until age 8 (Doesn't forbid, just doesn't focus on reading until then.). There's a development in the brain that often doesn't happen in boys until age 8. In America, those few boys for whom reading-ready brains happen older (age 8), are already labeled reading challenged, or possible "slower". They are self-identified dummies.
In Norway, that "I'm stupid" trauma rarely happens.
If you can't think about what to teach if you're not teaching reading, demand a refund from every school you attended.
I'm so thankful I was homeschooled! Government schools would have ruined me. As it was, I got an excellent education and graduated Cum Laude from University.
@@Novel-Marketing In first grade I was the worst reader until about a month before the school year ended I broke my left arm. Early '50's, no one made the connection with my almost overnight improved ability. The 60 yr old teacher told my Mom that in all her years teaching she had never seen such an extreme turn around. When over 20 years later I learned about mixed brain dominance and delayed brain maturation, I remembered. Why are such ideas still not fully applied?
Wow, that is so interesting!
Men love to learn. This is why I enjoy Dan Brown's books so much even though I'm not an avid reader of his genre. He always has interesting things to say in his books, and I feel like I come away a little bit more informed. That's not to say that I only read books that have info dumps, or that all info dumping is good, but strategic info dumps can definitely appeal to men.
For me, the biggest turn off in a book is the woke ideology that the big 5 try to shove down readers throats. I don't agree with it, I don't enjoy reading it, so when I encounter it, it's an automatic DNF.
I will say that having a lead character with a deep emotional wound can still be interesting, but it needs to be handled differently for men than it is for women. Batman is an amazing character with a very deep emotional wound. What makes it work for men though is the concept of show-don't-tell. Batman doesn't brood over his past constantly. You see instead how that past influences the decisions and actions that he takes today. The point of the story isn't Batman overcoming his deep emotional wound, it's Batman overcoming the villain and saving the city of Gotham. His deep emotional wound is only expressed in the form of dark, cool gadgets, and choice of lair, costume and intensity of speech.
Some of us are nerds & geeks (the terms didn't exist when I was in grade school, but I was one, a very female one (a true minority back then), but still one. After listening to this talk, I've decided that hard sci fi should be under Geek Lit, along with any other genre written with massive info dumps. We geeks love to info dump because that's what we like to read, even in romantic comedy we enjoy learning new stuff, it's like a bonus to the story.
With key word activated search engines, let's make "Geek Lit" a known term! We are an underserved ultimate minority and our voices deserve to be heard!
(copied from an answer I gave to another commentator. During our on line conversation, I discovered the above is why, or part of why, I find this talk the most thought provoking I've so far heard from Novel Marketing -- and that says a lot because from when I first stumbled on them, My first thought was "This guy's brilliant.")
I wonder if a way to bridge this gap in a novel (supposing someone wants to aim at both men and women) would be to show the utility of relationships. Then you have the problem-solving/technical aspect ("I need to have the Grand Vizier on my side, because otherwise their cavalry will wipe us out from the south) paired with the relational ("The way to get the Grand Vizier on my side is through his soft spot for X"). Would this split the difference and make everyone unhappy, or is it a potential path to someone who doesn't want to go hardcore one direction or the other?
Super interesting. I've started to avoid reading books by female authors. Too many of the details don't interest me at all... Aggravating instead of captivating like Larry Correa.
I feel seen as a reader👍
A lot of people are rejecting female authors for much the same reason. The stories all read the same, and they're all woke as Hell if they're not "Mommy Pr0n". YAWN.
Bummer. I'm a female writer, but I write many male characters, and they are front and center of many of my stories. I agree the market is saturated with gobbledygook. Also, most "female" humor doesn't appeal to men.
I won't try to sell you on my novel or anything, but there are a ton of us indies that are writing stuff that the Big 5 won't touch. Sci-fi horror with women who are strong-willed, funny, active (to a fault, in my protag's case), and who eff up their lives because of the "right" choices they've made. Or maybe that's just me?
So what would you recommend that I read? Because I like fiction written by male authors, too.
@@5Gburn I like Larry Correa, Craig Alanson , bary eisler. I think they do a great job with understanding the SPECIFIC equipment needed, what's available, what they'd rather have and why.
And tactics, they come up with pretty good battle strategies and sorta discuss other tactics previously used or an idea that'd work if conditions were manipulated a little bit.
My aunt will roll her eyes and fade out when I get into details of what makes a vehicle perfect for some task or environment.
Just don't be my aunt, show knowledgeable understanding how the details effect the outcome.
Example, line of off road trucks came to a stop because the leader had forgotten to lock in his hubs and got stuck in the very first real "puddle".
So driver looks to see if he can see the exhaust. It's underwater, blowing bubbles, so he leaves it running as climbs out window onto the hood and strips down, climbs down tire into the water locks the hub, locked the other hub. Gave the guy in the truck behind him the finger for laughing. Tosses clothes in truck, climbs back in and thinks about painting Frank's (guy behind laughing) truck in 2 dig before he puts it back in 4 high to pull out, but as satisfying as that'd be there's no sense in getting frank riled up this early. So he rolls up the windows and back and forth once gets him enough momentum to climb out, because tire speed wasn't enough.
@@dylanslater1360First, thanks for the recs. I'll go look them up!
I 100% agree about needing events to logic out. Even with fictional equipment and science, the reader needs to be able to think with it. (Which is how I found the math error in The Martian. Gave it a pass, though, because everything else was perfect.)
Besides all that, I think what's missing in a lot of modern fiction is a way to connect the dots between events that don't play out in quick succession. Fine details aren't given, so how is the reader supposed to know that such-and-such city is also called something else, and that's important because... And there's not nearly enough relevant in-scene tracking, which is a part of what you described.
Total agreement. Thanks for putting in the time to give a great example!
Men? I didn’t realise men were a monolith.
So, should we be able to tell from transcribed, real conversations, if the speaker is a man or a woman?
I think video games and p* absorb their attention and publishers don’t publish what they like, many authors of books popular among men published in the last 20 years say most publishers rejected them.
Read Bill Meyers comment above. Most publishers rejected his series about a boy because "boys don't read." Finally found a publisher, sold over 2 million copies.
He was NOT an unknown at the time, had a proven track record, but still had trouble getting even one taker.
Actually Harry Potter is big because it balances between action and relationship. So there’s a way to mix it.
"relationship" is misleading, it's heavy on _friendship_ which is way more universal
This was great.
Thank goodness neither men nor women are defined in the way these “geniuses” describe.
"Women read too much romance and true crime. We have to educate them to be better." said no-one ever.
You're wrong. Our mothers tell us that when we're teens, warning us those books do not prepare for real dating. So far, not one generation has listened until too late... 🙂
Thing is people used to say this, but after a while we stopped and became more accepting of what women enjoy. The problem is that now that women dominate the book industry they're not accepting what we are into
@@friendlyone2706 ok everyone’s mum says that… but publishers do not!
@@WR3CK4G3firstandonly Because guilty pleasure sells
@@friendlyone2706 Exactly! To be even more frank, reading is for pleasure and pleasure sells. People need enjoyment in their life. Only the most miserable fanatic would believe otherwise!
22:20 🤍James Earl Jones 🤍
I read fairly regularly as well..... books that were published 15+ years ago, including classic lit. I still look for good modern stories, but its really a mixed bag.
Good chat.
Over the weekend, I attended two panels at a con from authors who have sold tens of millions of copies of their books and translated into dozens of languages. Every author gave the same advice. Do not submit novels with info dumps or detailed descriptions that are more than a paragraph or so because first time authors will never get an agent and established authors will have those passages cut from their editors. Genre authors said you cannot get published these days if your books do not keep a fast pace because everyone has ADHD and test readers will rate those paragraphs down. One author has published 45 books and sold 50 million copies. He said the industry has changed. Write the book you want to write. But good luck getting published.
I’m with you. I mostly read indie titles, horror, and LitRPGs these days.
I have always heard the same advice, and followed it. And have sold very few fiction books. I prefer my info dumps woven into the story, but love books with them. Even cozy mysteries and historical romances that casually give accurate facts do better...Has the "never info dump" advice been given so often that even successful authors have become blind to components of their own success?
Apparently, I'm an alien 😂 As a woman, I love the nuclear bomb example. I find Tom Clancy books boring because of the detailed description, and I'm thinking get to the point. I would skip those pages.
I'm a massive fantasy reader, and a lot of books nowadays want to empower women and show them to be better than men. However, the only way they do this is to make the men appear weak and stupid. It's insulting and unrealistic. So my main reasons are these:
- Writers not knowing how to make strong female characters without making the men weak, just so they can look strong comparatively.
- Writers not knowing what makes a strong character in general, with no character development.
Women can be strong characters without the men having to appear weak. Look at Éowyn from Lord of the Rings. Look at any woman written by Hayao Miyazaki - Nausicaa, Princess Mononoke, or Spirited away.
*Lachieism - the desire for tragedy to strike so that it can deepen your resolve.
Conan is not a generation older than LotR. First, Tolkien was older than Howard (born 1892 vs. 1906). While LotR was begun after Howard's death (Howard dies in 1936 while Tolkien began "The New Hobbit" in 1937) the larger legendarium that LotR is part of first dates to 1917. Even if we isolate LotR it's publication was a mere 18 years after Howard's death.
If anything, LotR, with so much rooted in pre-WW1 England and Tolkien's experience in the trenches, is from a generation before Conan.
But I think the core differences are not of generation per se but place as well as time. A man who came of age in WW1 England is going to write very different tales from a man who came of age in 1920s Texas.
Interview Tucker Max on his writing process
The men in the video really simplified male/female devision putting female books largely in romance category and saying that women are drawn to emations and transitional roles. They sound like one of the countles hyper masculine podcastrs that live in their own buble.
Women i know read all sorts of books with majority of men i know not reading at all or reading mostly non-fiction because it is more "informative".
I was a little confused by your comments on how professions have changed. There are a lot more men in nursing now than there were 30 years ago.
The paradox isn’t about one specific industry and region, it’s that generally as equality and freedom of choice increases, so does the (limited!) degree to which people gravitate toward “gender coded” careers. There is another paradox, similar, where visible, social, gender expression becomes more pronounced as a society is freed from subsistence and people get choices other than “woman in home, man in fields”.
@@WR3CK4G3firstandonly Let's not move the goalposts. The video creator specifically listed nursing as an example. Also engineering. The thing is, if you look at those two fields, you'll find the opposite of what he's saying is true. Compared to 50 years ago, nursing and engineering are much less gender coded now.
@@ComedorDelricothe studies the host was referring to are in specifically the most egalitarian countries, which includes Scandinavian countries but not necessarily countries like the US .
The goalposts were set in the first twenty seconds, regarding generalities and specifics.
@@joshuaduncan235 And they're averages. It would be extremely surprising if a given trend held true in every possible vocation.
In general, men are pioneers, women are nurturers. So each gravitates accordingly.
Everything is so gynocentric these days. All of the accidental detectives and cozy sleuths are female protagonists even when the novels are written by men. When I finally find a good book with a relatable male lead, Goodreads/AMZ can only recommend books with female leads - regardless of genre. All the more aggravating for traditionally male dominated genres like military sci-fi or post-apocalyptic. Women have infiltrated everything and when they talk about 'equality' they're never interested in reducing the number of female nurses or hiring male teachers. They aren't writing adventure stories but they've co-opted the tropes (like pirates or pilots) for romance novels. I've always understood that erotic fiction and romance novels are just porn for women.
It's a good thing that everything is gynocentric. People have finally realized that male writing is worthless, thank goodness for that. And yes, equality isn't the thing we should be striving for, because women are just better at everything than men, sorry
This is a little weird to me, to be quite honest. I'm a man and I read a lot, when I say that I mean like three or four books a week. Now, I know I'm not exactly the target audience, since I'm bisexual and not strictly straight, but (maybe it's just me in a bubble) I have three very close straight friends who read as much as I do, if not more. And I also don't think that me being bisexual makes that much of a difference, I like war literature, science fiction and fantasy for example, which are genres that men commonly consume more, I believe.
I’ve written a novel for men (supposedly) and can’t get a literary agent, in part because literary agencies are dominated by women whose top fiction “wants” are romances, fantasy, romantasy, “women’s stories” and domestic thrillers. I’m not a woman hater but I’m frustrated by the lack of male representation in publishing these days. I’ve written an international thriller with organized crime, adventure, espionage, high tech, exotic settings and geopolitical intrigue inspired by the current conflict in the South China Sea. I guess that’s not what the publishers want. So, I guess I’ll self-publish at the risk of it sinking without a trace. Let me know if you’d read it.
I hate to say it, but according to your discussion, I'm a gay man and just don't know it.
I noped out when you cited Jordan Peterson.
This is a psychology question and Peterson is an acredited psychologist…
You nope out too easily
Male Sci Fi = Geek Lit
And Geeks come in all varieties, even very female.
Sorry, but Jordan Peterson is a clown. He has no credibility
So are you saying men don’t like to read sex scenes? So men think about sex 24 hours a day but they don’t want to read about it?
While I appreciate your discussion and insights, it would have been nice if you stepped out of the dichotomy of "male stories/readers" vs. "female stories/readers". There is a whole universe of stories that span the interests and values of both male and female readers, and they may offer "affordances" for different readers to value and appreciate different things.
As evidence, I offer the Christian New Testament. I think the evidence is strong that both men and women, over many for many centuries, have found the stories and storytelling in the New Testament to be interesting and compelling. Same could probably be said for stories in other religious or spiritual traditions, and even folk tales.
I also think some of your points were too simplistic. You talk a lot about how men appreciate and talk about sports (formations, equipment, plays) but you leave out how they experience the game while watching in a group. Fans watching a game at a sports bar will spontaneously "high five" with strangers when the home team scores, which is a very emotional, very relational dynamic. Also, notice how sports broadcasters interview players after the game. They usually ask "feeling" questions rather than technical+tactical questions. "How did it feel when ...?" and "How does this victory rank in your career?"
Last, even in the "pure masculine" stories, emotions and relations are vital, even if they are derived from the action or the "facts of the case". The "hero" will fall apart pretty quickly if his emotional support system collapses along with his sense of self.
Ok… I don’t see how what you’re saying really rebuts anything they’ve actually said.
I came in hoping for realistic advice on what the current male readership is looking for. Instead I got some awkward political/manosphere talking points.
Good. Your work isn't for men then. Market to your audience (not men)
@SirJesusFreak I'm a man and I'm writing for men. Not all men are ludicrously political anti-woke activists.
So the idea the girls and women read much more than boys and men has been true for a lot longer than the current system of writing and publishing, or the current round of men against women bs. It's about more than what types of books are being written. Do men read different things than women? Sure, but that does not account for the numbers.
You will probably find more men listening to audible non-fiction.
So you’re saying men and women are totally different and all men are the same?
You’re not that manly, get over yourself.
This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time
you lost me quoting jordan peterson ... who has no credibility
You just cut off the guest with a long Boring talk about data, stats, ....
No, an exciting, informative, Geek-appealing talk.
I came here out of curiosity. I wanted to know what men want. Then you started off by saying that anyone who disagrees with you is triggered, rather than having good reasons for disagreeing with you. That's not a good way to gain credibility.
I can't believe you deleted my comments. What happened to free speech?!
About 43:40 "Men want to feel like a winner"
All people want to feel like winners -- but we do not all define winning the same.