I agree. However I think it might be over buffed. This is fine though because it will make the game interesting for a while till we find a suitable nerf that doesn't completely remove skorp meta. Maybe some friendly damage?
@@ivanredinger969 I don't think it is an over buff. It is a buff that makes scorpions actually worth considering where as before they kinda were not used outside of Romans and maybe Khemer.
I'm in the "I love it" category. I hated how Scorpions were just this slow, situational "it's fine" kind of unit, but not one you'd ever want to make first unless you were countering something. They're friggin' cool, now. I never thought I'd see the day where you'd have to find a counter to Scorpions, instead of just running around them. They're still slow, but they command some respect, as they should from a siege weapon.
Yes I had a match the other day, took some advantage against Magyars being Malian, I don't know the stats but he started massing CA taking only good engagement with micro allowed by this unit, FU Heavy Camels would've been good but he had a lot of Pikes , Malian Arbalest would've been underwhelming against Magyars Heavy CA, Champions might have worked with Camels, still h could chase me till he beats me, Scorpions+Camels happened to be a good option to finish the game in castle age, other wise Magyars late game would've been too oppressive against Malian, who have great units but not outstanding units like Magyars.
In a mod I play together with friends we have had scorpions with increased accuracy for a long time, We did change some of the Scorpions damage from pierce damage to bonus damage vs infantry and archers. This way heavy cavalry becomes much more of a threat and you can't really just go pure scorpion.
@alltmisc No quite the opposite actually but that's because we buffed infantry's movement speed, while giving them a tiny (around 0.05 - 0.2 ) increase to range resulting in them being much better and more efficient at fighting
I really like the change overall. What I don't like is that in the previous patch they made Heavy Scorpions much tankier vs their counters AND cheaper to get into. They should have made all Scorpions affected with Ballistics first and see how impactful it is before buffing the Elite ones, because what I'm afraid is that civs that lack good Onagers or Bombard Cannons (Especially if against civs that also have good Bombard Cannons) become impossible to deal with very fast. This also applies to Siege Onagers in a sense but since they are much harder to get into you have a lot more time to win before they reach their strong composition.
All of the strong Scorpion civs except Ethiopians don't have Bombard Cannon. And I doubt they'll be meta outside of those half a dozen or so Scorpion civs (Mongols, Celts, Romans, Ethiopians, Slavs and ofc Khmer) after the excitement dies down.
giving scorpions ballistics is good, help them keep up with the inherent power creep/mechanic saturation of the game as time goes on, however their power could still be too good, and if that is the case, then i think slightly nerfing their attack speed would be the perfect counter balance
I think Roman scorpions are still the best scorpions in the game: they still have the huge gold discount, still fire faster than Celt scorpions (with UT), still have reduced minimum range, and still have siege engineers (and ballistics). The Roman scorpions didn't get nerfed in any way - it's just that other civs' scorpions got a little better to compare against. And Romans are still a top civ by civ winrates, so it's not like they need a buff to make up for having a civ bonus made general.
I like this meta of Romans being an ancient civ that has a tech no one else has, but some time later all the medieval civs have got access to it because they've learnt from the Romans
I mentioned it last vid, but I really think mangonel projectile speed should be buffed to be slightly faster. It makes ton of sense since lag has been reduced a ton over the years. Until then I’ll enjoy the hell out of Khmer.
@@hartziv4me true, though nomatter's concern is still guided because celts will still see an auxiliary buff, faster projectiles AND faster reload speed = bigger power spike than other civs will see
@@Nomatterwhat69 yes, heard about them, and their abysmal win rating on many maps. As the others say, what I meant is slightly reducing the time it takes for the stones to land. I think it would be a perfect step towards making Celts and also infantry + siege viable again. Mangonel just die too hard vs xbows these days when ping is reduced from 300 to 30. Just 0.1 seconds faster would be great. It’s a perfect buff not only to castle age siege, but also to infantry, civs that are weak to xbows like burmese and bulgarians, but also a nerf to the now very strong ballistic scorpion. Indirectly knights will be weaker since skirm knight combo may not slaughter pike siege. Devs should carve my comments in marble I’m a fucking da Vinci of balance changes
i like the idea of locking scorp balistic behind another balistic tech for siege weapons, less dominant in castle age with more time to research, and balanced in resources since it will pay itself back. like a transition tech from archer to scorp instead instant scorp
I didnt think aboyt this b4 bout you are totally right. Steppe Lancer/Hussar + Scorpions sounds like a reañly powerful comp. And they are easier to mass than Mangudai.
I like the change, it's a good one! Great vid. I actually want them to be buffed more and get bonus damage vs ships. As a map maker it's annoying that no land units can efficiently fight sea units, scorpions could be a good option.
I think you should need an additional tech to apply ballistics to scorpions, something you can research in university or siege workshop in castle age (but not available for every civ), and give it for free to romans :)
I'm glad it's just ordinary ballistics. It helps archer players who are generally struggling and otherwise this would be even tougher for them as scorpions counter archers a lot more than cav.
I love the change, tons of great points in the vid. Only addition is that it's yet another indirect nerf to infantry... Infantry really need some love. My proposal is a "charge" mechanic, where your infantry speed up for 3-4 tiles when triggered. Could be one time or on a cooldown.
I truly think Khmer is the #1 civ in the game now. They have a fantastic tech tree, incredibly flexible with arbalest, hussar, halb ext... They have the best scorpions, best elephants, the best eco bonus and best unique unit in the game. I'd be surprised if Hera ranks them anything worse than #3 behind maybe Chinese or Georgians but I think they are better than both.
These videos where you do analysis are really good :) And I think I like the change, Scorpions felt too underwhelming before. Unless you had a huge Heavy Scorpion mass in late game.
I think ALL ranged units should get affected by ballistics, with the balancing element mostly coming from reduced accuracy. Just because you are leading your shots (which is basically what ballistics causes units to do) doesn't mean you are still guaranteed a hit. So you could have say archers be 95%, HA 75%, siege 60% etc. To reflect real life, its easier to shoot a bow stood still, than it is while riding, than it is to fire a ballista bolt/trebuchet rock. The different UUs would slot in as balance requires. A slightly different way would be to have the accuracy tied to range to target while fired, e.g point blank 100% max range 50%, either of the current ballistics approach or the one I just proposed. So combined with my numbers here would give max range ballistic 30% accuracy against moving targets. Numbers are OC just examples, balance would dictate the correct figures but would also give an additional number for the devs to tweak for ranged balance.
I think the ballista change is good (though it can be tough for civs with weak siege), but at least in team games Ballista Elephants are much more frequent and can be very obnoxious, at least from my experience at 800-900 ELO.
I’m glad i no longer play AoE2. I used to play alot of 4v4 and got to around 1k elo average. Ballista Elephant deathballs could decide the game. If the other flank is not making mangos/bombards, it was GG. Good luck getting your siege over there before they melt your teammate. It is essentially the “noobstomper” unit, yet inmune to most units except the slowest units (siege), which make helping your teammates near imposible if you didnt make siege workshops in both corners. Nothing worse than hearing ballista elephants somewhere near a teammate and him ignoring every message and ping while just massing his stupid knights.
@@laguz3413 yeaah.. i try always to play with my buddies... but playing with randoms is bad because of that. Im also at 1050 elo, and it impresses me that sometimes you will have some franks just building 4 wall layers and screaming around "MORE WALLS... DAMN MONGOLIANS"
The only way to survive scorpion shots is to used the staggerdd formation. I love this change, as scorpions have good stats, but they struggle to deal damage without ballistics. They can now be very strong, but they still die to cavalry and mangonels on paper, and they are very slow. I think that, for example with teutons, halbs + scorpions (+bbc and mango) is now very strong late game. It's great to see counters to the hussar + CA comp.
I think it’s a welcome change Super slow expensive units should pack a punch! Big Fan! Now I just wanna see infantry be a more viable option somehow… maybe reduced cost so they’re more intriguing early game but with more expensive upgrades in imp
I played against a roman player in black forest before balistics was universal, and the only reason i was able to even fight back in imp was having bombard cannon. If i had randomed a different civ it would have been an instant loss. I havent played against many players going scorpions since, so im not sure if that initial impression holds true.
Always thought there should be an upgrade after Ballistics in Imperial Age to give Scorpions ballistics, kind of like Gambesons after Supplies. Then Romans can keep the ability to have Ballistics on their Scorpions in Castle Age.
you need to do a 1v4 (or something) with a custom civ you make, that has like, 2 or 3x as many bonuses as a normal civ. so like for example, 5 eco bonuses and 5 military bonuses (maybe all scorp based lol) all in one civ. but no handicap nor popboost.
ok, this explains why I'm seeing hordes of scorpions in all my matches. I'm a noob, I didn't win any ranked match yet, but now I understand why they are using a unit that I always thought was trash.
I like the change it was unfair people always playing cav archers without an actual counter because skirmishers lack mobility and their projectiles never hit them, now with scorpions, despite they do not move fast they can actually take down the cav archers and defend properly your villagers
My take is it’s a good direction for the game. It’s a strategy game, not a take adderall and be a cracked out of your mind micro nerd to be a better player. Literally every other genre is already like this and wish it was more about strategy and timings which I know it is but doesn’t matter how good you are with those things if someone is cracked and abuse movement mechanics they will always win.
Very unexpected (at least for me) but very welcome change. It shakes up the meta in a good way, i love seeing people test it out and adapting to the new circumstances. Khmer S tier civ now?
What we didn't realize before the change as well is: scorpions have bigger hitboxes than archers so their projectiles are always on slightly different paths. This makes dodging even harder
Scorpions were sub par at best before and were for niche situations or were only for Khmer and Rome lol. Now, there are more options for them and mangonel hopefully won’t be the only siege weapons we see in castle age. I think that this change is not very huge regardless though as the inaccuracy may make them worse in imperial age. This is because the inaccuracy scatters the projectiles thus by reducing the inaccuracy with ballistics, they will be slightly less powerful. In my opinion the scorpion needs further buffs to castle age, granted not huge ones as it still falls apart against properly used mangonels. However, if scorpions are getting buffed so do infantry as scorpions are best vs infantry.
Hera… now that scorps have ballistics does this change what unit you will target in a group. If I remember right… correct me if I’m wrong. You would target the front unit so you would anticipate the movement and it would hit the most units in the middle. Where are you aiming now to get the best shots.
@hera just to hightlight one thing i think you are missing on. at least in castle age if a cav archer civ "say viets" are faced with scorpions. precisely because scorpions are expensive to tech into it is a situation where a SINGLE elephant can DESTROY the scorpions. scorpions slow movement speed allows elephants to become a very solid counter if the scorpions are not properly defended
Unfortunately, at high level, players probably always add a couple monks into their composition which isn't that big of an investment and hard counters elephants (though I suppose at this point, the scorpion player would be setting himself up for being even more vulnerable to light cav.
Scorpions have some bonus damage against elephants. In small numbers, the elephant might work fine (assuming no monks), but in large numbers they won't get close. Add a meat shield (especially a pike/halb meat shield), and the scorpions would actually counter the elephants.
One big counter to them.... i think... Would be siege rams... no? Survives because pierce armor And does heavy siege splash dmg against scorpions Have not seen it.... But i believe it would work well
I personally dont like it because i do see it as a crosbow/arbalest but stronger so a deathball of scorps seems unstoppable at the moment, i also think attack ground was a better option since scorps are a siege unit and with that accuracy depends more on skill and not on a tech wich can stack on top of other strong bonuses like Khmer
Thet should make them more expensive. I like the higher damage output--as seige units should have, but 75w 75g is too cheap for a siege unit. Roman's have them at the price of archers.
Since there is not technology in Siege Workshop, maybe a new moderately expensive and civ exclusive tech can be considered. Instead of Ballistic technology from University, this new tech will give ballistics to scorpions and half of the civ including Khmer, Celts won't get the tech. Romans will obviously get the tech for free.
I love this cchange. Tho I guess they really should give the Romans something to compensate thier bouns being open to everyone. Sure thier scrop still the same as before but it kind of feels like they have an indirect nerf.
The only change I might see for dealing with Scorpions is Eagles and cavalry having a hidden resistance against scorpions. That is only if they prove to be too tough to deal with.
Khmer may need to be slightly nerfed. The same goes for Mongol drill. Celts are listed among the worst civs does faster firing move them to the top? I am not so sure. I am looking at the cav civs which have not been played because they had no answer to CA, now with scorpions it could have moved around the better team list.
I cant say much about cuz you already covered the most important things. The change kicks in hard ONCE you are imp or late castle when you have an economy to mass scorpions and ballistics (early castle is bit greedy cuz you spend tooooo much resources). I wanted to say that I expected some Roman compensation buffs. They are still a goodp scorpion civ but got outclassed. Idk maybe revert a bit the centurion aura or something.
I like the change, but the idea I liked more and have been entertaining for months is to instead give scorpions the attack ground option. Makes them great in low numbers but not sucha threat when massed
Maybe Romans should get ballistics for free in their scorpions to make up for the balance changes. But I think also it would be a really early strong castle age as you dont need a university to start.
I'm just at 12xx - 13xx but I think at that level, they are not a good thing. There used to be a viable archer meta, which was already greatly reduced past months because massing archers just became harder. With this change it becomes almost irrelevant, I'd say. Archer groups get shredded and there's no real counter, I could make mangonels but micro-ing archers and mangonels at this level vs. ballistic scorpions is just not realistic when under pressure. Maybe a solution could be making it a separate tech from ballistics, at least the synergy with buildings & archers is gone and it can be made more expensive without hurting archer play. Good thing I can now just star cav-civs and avoid playing archers ever again I guess...
I really like the change too, but in team games it's tiresome at times, especially when allies don't make counters, especially when they're good siege civs themselves. Seeing a Mongol player getting rolled by scorpions was a depressing sight. Also Romans players that spam only scorpions and you have to kill like 100+ of them because they're so cheap. Finally thin them out and are able to push with your army instead of backing up with bombards and onagers. This is 1150-1250 team game ELO so not that high.
I think a good change to add with this change would be: Scorpions do friendly fire damage, because otherwise its just good to everyone to add some scorpions in the back if your scorpions dont suck you know. Maybe not full damage but like 50% firendly fire.
Good video in general but saying Roman scorpions are not that great in comparison is just bonkers, the 60% gold discount on its own already make them top tier, not to mention the minimum range reduction helps a lot against melee units like cavalry, Roman scorpions are so good that with balanced resources only a handful of other units can win like SO. Also roman scorpions are great because they are one of the strongest since castle age because of the min range and discount and they keep scaling well, I still think the Khmer team bonus is the best for castle age specially and Ethiopians are the best damage dealers in late game hands down, but scorpions are expensive and slow to get to and the Roman discount makes massing the scorpions way easier not to mention more sustainable in regards to gold
I think scorpions are in a good place only thing i would maybe nerf is minus 1 range. They are still weak in low numbers and if you let your opponent mass 60+ scorpions then you deserve to deal with that headache. 😂
I like the change for castle age, but not for imperial age. Castle age, makes scorpions more useful, gives a defensive option against cav archers, and ballistics is expensive so its a real choice when you get it. Imp age, people mass up 40+ heavy scorps and its just stupid. The death ball kills everything, even FU paladins. They shouodnt be that strong.
From a logical point of view I really like that they have it now, I always asked myself why they where not affected before^^ But now I feel like the romans need something else going for their scorpions... I just don't know what :D Historically it is such a roman weapon
A big problem with buffs like these is that in the past this "weak" units like scorpions, camels and longswords got crazy strong civ bonuses that made them viable. With buffs in the direction to make them generalist units for most of the civs we get OP units like saracen camels, khmer scorpions etc. The way to correctly buff these units imo should be a big overall rebalancing of all the strong civ bonuses, that creates lots less trouble
I really like this change. Imo, a big mass of elite scorpions SHOULD feel like a massive deathball that you can't just melt with a handful hussars.
Khemer fast castle to scorpion spam. 😵💫
I agree. However I think it might be over buffed. This is fine though because it will make the game interesting for a while till we find a suitable nerf that doesn't completely remove skorp meta.
Maybe some friendly damage?
I'm sorry but melee cav is supposed to counter siege and most range units. Scorpion borderline breaking that rule is just dumb.
@@ivanredinger969 I don't think it is an over buff. It is a buff that makes scorpions actually worth considering where as before they kinda were not used outside of Romans and maybe Khemer.
@@J-cz7yvthats just it. The scorpion ballistics is completely busted combined with certain civ bonuses.
I'm in the "I love it" category.
I hated how Scorpions were just this slow, situational "it's fine" kind of unit, but not one you'd ever want to make first unless you were countering something.
They're friggin' cool, now. I never thought I'd see the day where you'd have to find a counter to Scorpions, instead of just running around them. They're still slow, but they command some respect, as they should from a siege weapon.
I feel like they should keep the change BUT nerf scorpion damage by like 1 or 2 to compensate
I like it so far. More options for compositions
Yes I had a match the other day, took some advantage against Magyars being Malian, I don't know the stats but he started massing CA taking only good engagement with micro allowed by this unit, FU Heavy Camels would've been good but he had a lot of Pikes , Malian Arbalest would've been underwhelming against Magyars Heavy CA, Champions might have worked with Camels, still h could chase me till he beats me, Scorpions+Camels happened to be a good option to finish the game in castle age, other wise Magyars late game would've been too oppressive against Malian, who have great units but not outstanding units like Magyars.
@@guillemusic7vid of this game
As a kid the ballista units/buildings in AOE1 were some of my favorites. Seeing scorps doing well now in AOE2 is super fun to see as a viewer.
YEEEEEEEEEEEEESH me too
Scorpions absolutely needed ballistics to make them a competitive siege option. I love the update.
In a mod I play together with friends we have had scorpions with increased accuracy for a long time, We did change some of the Scorpions damage from pierce damage to bonus damage vs infantry and archers. This way heavy cavalry becomes much more of a threat and you can't really just go pure scorpion.
So infantry sucked even harder in your mod
@alltmisc No quite the opposite actually but that's because we buffed infantry's movement speed, while giving them a tiny (around 0.05 - 0.2 ) increase to range resulting in them being much better and more efficient at fighting
I really like the change overall. What I don't like is that in the previous patch they made Heavy Scorpions much tankier vs their counters AND cheaper to get into.
They should have made all Scorpions affected with Ballistics first and see how impactful it is before buffing the Elite ones, because what I'm afraid is that civs that lack good Onagers or Bombard Cannons (Especially if against civs that also have good Bombard Cannons) become impossible to deal with very fast.
This also applies to Siege Onagers in a sense but since they are much harder to get into you have a lot more time to win before they reach their strong composition.
@@Mattroid99 we will see how things go. People are still not use to playing against them so they might become less annoying after a bit.
All of the strong Scorpion civs except Ethiopians don't have Bombard Cannon. And I doubt they'll be meta outside of those half a dozen or so Scorpion civs (Mongols, Celts, Romans, Ethiopians, Slavs and ofc Khmer) after the excitement dies down.
They need mak scorpions a lil quicker or more h p thier to ahrd to protect n die to fast or they should have more range or something
giving scorpions ballistics is good, help them keep up with the inherent power creep/mechanic saturation of the game as time goes on, however their power could still be too good, and if that is the case, then i think slightly nerfing their attack speed would be the perfect counter balance
I think Roman scorpions are still the best scorpions in the game: they still have the huge gold discount, still fire faster than Celt scorpions (with UT), still have reduced minimum range, and still have siege engineers (and ballistics). The Roman scorpions didn't get nerfed in any way - it's just that other civs' scorpions got a little better to compare against.
And Romans are still a top civ by civ winrates, so it's not like they need a buff to make up for having a civ bonus made general.
I like that this gives some civs like Franks or Slavs that aren't good with archers an alternative option for dealing damage from the back.
I like this meta of Romans being an ancient civ that has a tech no one else has, but some time later all the medieval civs have got access to it because they've learnt from the Romans
I mentioned it last vid, but I really think mangonel projectile speed should be buffed to be slightly faster. It makes ton of sense since lag has been reduced a ton over the years.
Until then I’ll enjoy the hell out of Khmer.
Have you heard about Celts? I think mangonels stats shouldn't be touched. If you need to fire faster you can make two mangonels and micro them both
@@Nomatterwhat69 I think he doesnt Talk about reload time but rather the speed with which the Stones fly in the air
@@hartziv4me true, though nomatter's concern is still guided because celts will still see an auxiliary buff, faster projectiles AND faster reload speed = bigger power spike than other civs will see
@@Nomatterwhat69 yes, heard about them, and their abysmal win rating on many maps. As the others say, what I meant is slightly reducing the time it takes for the stones to land. I think it would be a perfect step towards making Celts and also infantry + siege viable again. Mangonel just die too hard vs xbows these days when ping is reduced from 300 to 30.
Just 0.1 seconds faster would be great. It’s a perfect buff not only to castle age siege, but also to infantry, civs that are weak to xbows like burmese and bulgarians, but also a nerf to the now very strong ballistic scorpion. Indirectly knights will be weaker since skirm knight combo may not slaughter pike siege.
Devs should carve my comments in marble I’m a fucking da Vinci of balance changes
i like the idea of locking scorp balistic behind another balistic tech for siege weapons, less dominant in castle age with more time to research, and balanced in resources since it will pay itself back.
like a transition tech from archer to scorp instead instant scorp
Maybe an upgrade to ballistics similar to how stoneworks and masonry work. First balliatics for your arrows, then ballistics for your siege.
Fair enough for the change, ultimately it also feels like a nerf to infantry though. Please buff infantry.
Mongol Steppe Lancers and scorpions is OP. The DPS is insane.
I didnt think aboyt this b4 bout you are totally right. Steppe Lancer/Hussar + Scorpions sounds like a reañly powerful comp. And they are easier to mass than Mangudai.
I think it’s a welcome change
Super slow expensive units should pack a punch!
Big fan of
I like the change, it's a good one! Great vid.
I actually want them to be buffed more and get bonus damage vs ships. As a map maker it's annoying that no land units can efficiently fight sea units, scorpions could be a good option.
Hera: scorpion will never hit you
His game: monk died
I think you should need an additional tech to apply ballistics to scorpions, something you can research in university or siege workshop in castle age (but not available for every civ), and give it for free to romans :)
I'm glad it's just ordinary ballistics. It helps archer players who are generally struggling and otherwise this would be even tougher for them as scorpions counter archers a lot more than cav.
Cant believe it took 20 years to finally make scorpions truly useful
111111 truuuueee
Still can't do it for militia line.
I love the change, tons of great points in the vid. Only addition is that it's yet another indirect nerf to infantry... Infantry really need some love. My proposal is a "charge" mechanic, where your infantry speed up for 3-4 tiles when triggered. Could be one time or on a cooldown.
I truly think Khmer is the #1 civ in the game now. They have a fantastic tech tree, incredibly flexible with arbalest, hussar, halb ext... They have the best scorpions, best elephants, the best eco bonus and best unique unit in the game. I'd be surprised if Hera ranks them anything worse than #3 behind maybe Chinese or Georgians but I think they are better than both.
These videos where you do analysis are really good :)
And I think I like the change, Scorpions felt too underwhelming before. Unless you had a huge Heavy Scorpion mass in late game.
I really like the change, but IMO Heavy Scorps should be just a tad more (like 5% more) expensive.
I think ALL ranged units should get affected by ballistics, with the balancing element mostly coming from reduced accuracy. Just because you are leading your shots (which is basically what ballistics causes units to do) doesn't mean you are still guaranteed a hit. So you could have say archers be 95%, HA 75%, siege 60% etc. To reflect real life, its easier to shoot a bow stood still, than it is while riding, than it is to fire a ballista bolt/trebuchet rock. The different UUs would slot in as balance requires. A slightly different way would be to have the accuracy tied to range to target while fired, e.g point blank 100% max range 50%, either of the current ballistics approach or the one I just proposed. So combined with my numbers here would give max range ballistic 30% accuracy against moving targets. Numbers are OC just examples, balance would dictate the correct figures but would also give an additional number for the devs to tweak for ranged balance.
so funny to see you include footage from the german guys - this is the way i found ur channel
I think the new change is fun! What do you think about siege rams to counter Scorpions?
I think the ballista change is good (though it can be tough for civs with weak siege), but at least in team games Ballista Elephants are much more frequent and can be very obnoxious, at least from my experience at 800-900 ELO.
scorpions everywhere now at 1000-1100 elo.. very obnoxious if you dont have decent SIEGE onagers with siege engineers.. they melt everything
I’m glad i no longer play AoE2. I used to play alot of 4v4 and got to around 1k elo average. Ballista Elephant deathballs could decide the game. If the other flank is not making mangos/bombards, it was GG. Good luck getting your siege over there before they melt your teammate. It is essentially the “noobstomper” unit, yet inmune to most units except the slowest units (siege), which make helping your teammates near imposible if you didnt make siege workshops in both corners.
Nothing worse than hearing ballista elephants somewhere near a teammate and him ignoring every message and ping while just massing his stupid knights.
@@laguz3413 yeaah.. i try always to play with my buddies... but playing with randoms is bad because of that. Im also at 1050 elo, and it impresses me that sometimes you will have some franks just building 4 wall layers and screaming around "MORE WALLS... DAMN MONGOLIANS"
7:38 Are you saying I should give up on my Slav Scorpion Rush 😢
6:20 best part
🐻 🐻 🐻
The only way to survive scorpion shots is to used the staggerdd formation. I love this change, as scorpions have good stats, but they struggle to deal damage without ballistics. They can now be very strong, but they still die to cavalry and mangonels on paper, and they are very slow. I think that, for example with teutons, halbs + scorpions (+bbc and mango) is now very strong late game. It's great to see counters to the hussar + CA comp.
I think it’s a welcome change
Super slow expensive units should pack a punch!
Big Fan!
Now I just wanna see infantry be a more viable option somehow… maybe reduced cost so they’re more intriguing early game but with more expensive upgrades in imp
Reminds me of KOTG + Glave Throwers from years ago before they nerfed it into the ground in Warcraft III.
I played against a roman player in black forest before balistics was universal, and the only reason i was able to even fight back in imp was having bombard cannon. If i had randomed a different civ it would have been an instant loss.
I havent played against many players going scorpions since, so im not sure if that initial impression holds true.
That said, the only scorpion that felt fun to use before, was the balista elephant.
Now its way more fun to use them with how slow they are.
Always thought there should be an upgrade after Ballistics in Imperial Age to give Scorpions ballistics, kind of like Gambesons after Supplies. Then Romans can keep the ability to have Ballistics on their Scorpions in Castle Age.
I like it. More micro and unit composition possibilities makes the game great.
They are insane. I am using them all teh time with knights or Light cav.they shread everything, pikes, skirms, crossbows.
you need to do a 1v4 (or something) with a custom civ you make, that has like, 2 or 3x as many bonuses as a normal civ. so like for example, 5 eco bonuses and 5 military bonuses (maybe all scorp based lol) all in one civ. but no handicap nor popboost.
ok, this explains why I'm seeing hordes of scorpions in all my matches. I'm a noob, I didn't win any ranked match yet, but now I understand why they are using a unit that I always thought was trash.
11:53 CROW CAWING CAW CAW CAW
🐈 🐈 🐈
If they decide to keep the change in the end, or reverse it because it's too good. In the end I like that they tried a huge change like this.
I like the change it was unfair people always playing cav archers without an actual counter because skirmishers lack mobility and their projectiles never hit them, now with scorpions, despite they do not move fast they can actually take down the cav archers and defend properly your villagers
12 range longbowman is the treat of scorps.
My take is it’s a good direction for the game. It’s a strategy game, not a take adderall and be a cracked out of your mind micro nerd to be a better player. Literally every other genre is already like this and wish it was more about strategy and timings which I know it is but doesn’t matter how good you are with those things if someone is cracked and abuse movement mechanics they will always win.
Very unexpected (at least for me) but very welcome change. It shakes up the meta in a good way, i love seeing people test it out and adapting to the new circumstances. Khmer S tier civ now?
What we didn't realize before the change as well is: scorpions have bigger hitboxes than archers so their projectiles are always on slightly different paths. This makes dodging even harder
Scorpions were sub par at best before and were for niche situations or were only for Khmer and Rome lol. Now, there are more options for them and mangonel hopefully won’t be the only siege weapons we see in castle age. I think that this change is not very huge regardless though as the inaccuracy may make them worse in imperial age. This is because the inaccuracy scatters the projectiles thus by reducing the inaccuracy with ballistics, they will be slightly less powerful. In my opinion the scorpion needs further buffs to castle age, granted not huge ones as it still falls apart against properly used mangonels. However, if scorpions are getting buffed so do infantry as scorpions are best vs infantry.
Roman scorpions are forgettable? Dunno man, 30g scorpions with 33% atk speed boost are still pretty damn good
Hera… now that scorps have ballistics does this change what unit you will target in a group.
If I remember right… correct me if I’m wrong. You would target the front unit so you would anticipate the movement and it would hit the most units in the middle.
Where are you aiming now to get the best shots.
@hera just to hightlight one thing i think you are missing on. at least in castle age if a cav archer civ "say viets" are faced with scorpions. precisely because scorpions are expensive to tech into it is a situation where a SINGLE elephant can DESTROY the scorpions. scorpions slow movement speed allows elephants to become a very solid counter if the scorpions are not properly defended
Unfortunately, at high level, players probably always add a couple monks into their composition which isn't that big of an investment and hard counters elephants (though I suppose at this point, the scorpion player would be setting himself up for being even more vulnerable to light cav.
@@navynahibel873 LC + battle elephant goes BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. And attonement monk ;)
Scorpions have some bonus damage against elephants. In small numbers, the elephant might work fine (assuming no monks), but in large numbers they won't get close. Add a meat shield (especially a pike/halb meat shield), and the scorpions would actually counter the elephants.
Probably should lower projectile speed a bit
And maybe add a little bit of attack delay
One big counter to them.... i think...
Would be siege rams... no?
Survives because pierce armor
And does heavy siege splash dmg against scorpions
Have not seen it....
But i believe it would work well
In theory on their own yes but most people would have some sort of melee unit near them
I personally dont like it because i do see it as a crosbow/arbalest but stronger so a deathball of scorps seems unstoppable at the moment, i also think attack ground was a better option since scorps are a siege unit and with that accuracy depends more on skill and not on a tech wich can stack on top of other strong bonuses like Khmer
Thet should make them more expensive. I like the higher damage output--as seige units should have, but 75w 75g is too cheap for a siege unit. Roman's have them at the price of archers.
Since there is not technology in Siege Workshop, maybe a new moderately expensive and civ exclusive tech can be considered. Instead of Ballistic technology from University, this new tech will give ballistics to scorpions and half of the civ including Khmer, Celts won't get the tech. Romans will obviously get the tech for free.
as a goth player khmer got even scarier. but hey - I gonna try that hussar tip u gave. other than that only bbc/onager can work sometimes
I love this cchange. Tho I guess they really should give the Romans something to compensate thier bouns being open to everyone.
Sure thier scrop still the same as before but it kind of feels like they have an indirect nerf.
The only change I might see for dealing with Scorpions is Eagles and cavalry having a hidden resistance against scorpions. That is only if they prove to be too tough to deal with.
I think Scorpions have always been a very good option, at least since the "Rock you like a hurricane" update.
Khmer may need to be slightly nerfed. The same goes for Mongol drill. Celts are listed among the worst civs does faster firing move them to the top? I am not so sure. I am looking at the cav civs which have not been played because they had no answer to CA, now with scorpions it could have moved around the better team list.
someone remember in AOK how fletching and blacksmith affected range into scorpions? haha
What civs are affected by balistics?
GOOD GAME
I cant say much about cuz you already covered the most important things. The change kicks in hard ONCE you are imp or late castle when you have an economy to mass scorpions and ballistics (early castle is bit greedy cuz you spend tooooo much resources).
I wanted to say that I expected some Roman compensation buffs. They are still a goodp scorpion civ but got outclassed. Idk maybe revert a bit the centurion aura or something.
Kinda sad that romans lost their unique bonus
it's not as if ballistics is a guaranteed hit, you can still dodge the missiles. So, I'm okay with this change.
I like the change, but the idea I liked more and have been entertaining for months is to instead give scorpions the attack ground option. Makes them great in low numbers but not sucha threat when massed
10:20
Hera man!
How can you not mentio the Romans on that list?
They are the best!
Sounds like now scorpions are fitting where they were always supposed to be- a mobile defense point.
Will this see a rise in Mongol play with CA + trickling Mangudai into comp as a means of taking down scorps
Buffing scorpions will also help infantry right? Not bad if in case!
Poor Erich's game in the background! xD
Meanwhile, militia line continues to cry themselves to sleep. Another hardcounter buffed.
I have really noticed that scorpions meltdown camels
a map where scorpions control the bridge
Maybe Romans should get ballistics for free in their scorpions to make up for the balance changes. But I think also it would be a really early strong castle age as you dont need a university to start.
I'm just at 12xx - 13xx but I think at that level, they are not a good thing. There used to be a viable archer meta, which was already greatly reduced past months because massing archers just became harder. With this change it becomes almost irrelevant, I'd say. Archer groups get shredded and there's no real counter, I could make mangonels but micro-ing archers and mangonels at this level vs. ballistic scorpions is just not realistic when under pressure.
Maybe a solution could be making it a separate tech from ballistics, at least the synergy with buildings & archers is gone and it can be made more expensive without hurting archer play.
Good thing I can now just star cav-civs and avoid playing archers ever again I guess...
So mangonels now Will have ballistics?
I really like the change too, but in team games it's tiresome at times, especially when allies don't make counters, especially when they're good siege civs themselves. Seeing a Mongol player getting rolled by scorpions was a depressing sight. Also Romans players that spam only scorpions and you have to kill like 100+ of them because they're so cheap. Finally thin them out and are able to push with your army instead of backing up with bombards and onagers. This is 1150-1250 team game ELO so not that high.
Next change is mangos getting ballistics 😂 fo sure for sure!
I think a good change to add with this change would be: Scorpions do friendly fire damage, because otherwise its just good to everyone to add some scorpions in the back if your scorpions dont suck you know. Maybe not full damage but like 50% firendly fire.
Wow I see your point but that also sounds terrifying hahahahaha. I think that would gatekeep me from playing scorps.
Biggest problem with this is that if you ever mass enough scorpions they would kill each other in a few shots
What is gonna happen is they are gonna reduce the base attack of the scorpions. If they reduce 2 points I think it is fine!
Everyone is playing scorpions on black forest now, how do you counter it?
I think it's a good thing making them less situational, but I'm afraid it's another nerf to archers
Good video in general but saying Roman scorpions are not that great in comparison is just bonkers, the 60% gold discount on its own already make them top tier, not to mention the minimum range reduction helps a lot against melee units like cavalry, Roman scorpions are so good that with balanced resources only a handful of other units can win like SO. Also roman scorpions are great because they are one of the strongest since castle age because of the min range and discount and they keep scaling well, I still think the Khmer team bonus is the best for castle age specially and Ethiopians are the best damage dealers in late game hands down, but scorpions are expensive and slow to get to and the Roman discount makes massing the scorpions way easier not to mention more sustainable in regards to gold
I would argue that scorpions are worth selling food/wood to get them in trash fights now, if the civilization has good ones.
so celt is good now?
I think scorpions are in a good place only thing i would maybe nerf is minus 1 range. They are still weak in low numbers and if you let your opponent mass 60+ scorpions then you deserve to deal with that headache. 😂
Keep the CA at Bay? You mean keep the CA at Pants!
I like the change for castle age, but not for imperial age.
Castle age, makes scorpions more useful, gives a defensive option against cav archers, and ballistics is expensive so its a real choice when you get it.
Imp age, people mass up 40+ heavy scorps and its just stupid. The death ball kills everything, even FU paladins. They shouodnt be that strong.
So what youre trying to say is…
Give mangonels ballistics?
"Pro players learned how to dodge ballistics a few years ago..."
Hey, custom scenario player here, we learned that like....20 years ago now?
From a logical point of view I really like that they have it now, I always asked myself why they where not affected before^^ But now I feel like the romans need something else going for their scorpions... I just don't know what :D Historically it is such a roman weapon
Wait wasn’t this a Roman unique thing? Did they do anything for the Roman’s or just leave it at that
A big problem with buffs like these is that in the past this "weak" units like scorpions, camels and longswords got crazy strong civ bonuses that made them viable. With buffs in the direction to make them generalist units for most of the civs we get OP units like saracen camels, khmer scorpions etc. The way to correctly buff these units imo should be a big overall rebalancing of all the strong civ bonuses, that creates lots less trouble
Imagine spamming champions in 2024? Scorps counter them even harder then archers
Knights counter pikes. Wait. Scorps counter knights
i sayd the balistic elephant should not get balistic buff
Generic swordsmen line got like 7 buffs and is still hardly ever viable, generic scorpions got a single change and they are extremely viable. Lol.
Make em not need redemption to convert lol