Less educated and Rural people exclusively participate in these rituals. Even the people I have spoken to have personally sharpened the blades and spikes before sticking them in themselves. They don't see it as a thing to fear. It is a social rite of passage and they do it while parading through the streets, and are very visible, the traffic stops to let them pass. You cannot convince people not to do this because they don't see it the way educated people do, and they are very devout. They are supportive of their family members also partaking in the ritual. This is very real. It is exclusively social, and no isolated individuals do this.
Social signalling cultures are better understood than ever, but the real enigma (for me) is: why it is that we/they are unconscious of signalling activity when we/they enact it (especially in cases where it has elevated costliness)? For example, when my father would speak in tongues at church, he seriously thought he was 'channelling' the holy spirit. But, the literature says he was merely engaging a behaviour that (indirectly) signals group commitment (thus, keeping those pesky freeloaders at bay, because they don't have the muster to 'fake it', like my dad did). Presumably the answer won't be coming from Anthropology or sociology (nor philosophy, which is looking evermore like a complex signalling system), but from psychology or neurology (?). Robin Hanson has speculated (Elephant In The Brain), that it has something to do with the bicameral nature of the brain and how it can do 'tricks' on how attention/awareness is organised and distributed. Could you elaborate on this?
Interesting. For my master's thesis, I did an ethnological study on hooligans (in soccer and Icehockey). Ingroup/Outgroup-construction and collective arousal are interesting but you can also look at it from a gender theory perspective. Hooliganism constructs an identity as a "true male" and their relationship to "real women" (as defined by the male group).
In the Philippines, there are people who "emulates" Jesus' suffering through self-flagellation, bearing of the cross and walking far distances and of course the classic crucifixion.
Hi, it's nice to see your real name, it's also more academic and serious, but the original name of your channel was so genius it's really a pity you've changed it. Why don't you just combine both and change the name to "Andrew Mark Henry - religion for 2nd breakfast"...?
Hi! I know this comment was made a while ago, but do you know that this is just his second, more academic, channel? Religion for Breakfast is still a channel that is alive and well.
@@8114梦见 Hi, yes, thanks, I know. His first channel is "Religion for Breakfast" and this second, more academic channel was originally named "Religion for 2nd Breakfast" which I found hilarious, I was very disappointed to see that he changed the channel's name to "Andrew Mark Henry", which is why I suggested to merge the two names.
I’m reminded of peacocks and other animals who are successful at passing on their genes despite wasting their time with rituals. But for each of the successful ones there are probably hundreds of others who wasted more time and weren’t successful.
@@doctorshell7118 I would recommend that to you if you genuinely think this is the same as courtship. You are allowed to be reminded of it of course, but don’t then try to assert these behaviors as the same.
@Andrew Mark Henry I don't know whether comments on this channel reach you. You haven't reacted to any of them here. But maybe that's because of the amount of comments on your main channel. In any case I find this topic very interesting and 2 things keep me busy in my mind. First, the observation that people in the lower social classes are the ones exhibiting the higher "cost" and participating more often in these public rituals. And as a consequence they obtain more status which I suspect isn't permanent but has to be renewed each time the ritual is performed, as opposed to elevation of status through obtaining wealth or being born into a family with higher status. Am I wrong to think so? And the second thing is whether these rituals are essential for the establishment of societal cohesion and in what measure. How can we achieve this in a secular society if we don't want to participate in and display religious behaviours? Some ritual behaviours will always remain, like seasonal celebrations and rituals around births and deaths. Or, like your guest mentioned, around (national) sports teams. Many streets in my country will colour orange when the national soccer team plays in the EC or WC. Do the benefits of this behaviour still outnumber the detriments? And where does cultism and religious trauma fit into this?
Would really want to ask Dr. Dimitris what he thinks about self-flagellation which is often practiced individually and therefore not intended for strengthening of social ties or lifting one’s social status. Do they do it just for… pleasure?
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"Rituals as social technologies". Thanks for putting that into words.
Less educated and Rural people exclusively participate in these rituals. Even the people I have spoken to have personally sharpened the blades and spikes before sticking them in themselves. They don't see it as a thing to fear. It is a social rite of passage and they do it while parading through the streets, and are very visible, the traffic stops to let them pass. You cannot convince people not to do this because they don't see it the way educated people do, and they are very devout. They are supportive of their family members also partaking in the ritual. This is very real. It is exclusively social, and no isolated individuals do this.
Social signalling cultures are better understood than ever, but the real enigma (for me) is: why it is that we/they are unconscious of signalling activity when we/they enact it (especially in cases where it has elevated costliness)? For example, when my father would speak in tongues at church, he seriously thought he was 'channelling' the holy spirit. But, the literature says he was merely engaging a behaviour that (indirectly) signals group commitment (thus, keeping those pesky freeloaders at bay, because they don't have the muster to 'fake it', like my dad did). Presumably the answer won't be coming from Anthropology or sociology (nor philosophy, which is looking evermore like a complex signalling system), but from psychology or neurology (?). Robin Hanson has speculated (Elephant In The Brain), that it has something to do with the bicameral nature of the brain and how it can do 'tricks' on how attention/awareness is organised and distributed. Could you elaborate on this?
Excellent. I have seen some of these extreme rituals in S.E. Asia.
I would love to hear more from what he has to say. Extreme rituals are very fascinating in any culture
Interesting. For my master's thesis, I did an ethnological study on hooligans (in soccer and Icehockey). Ingroup/Outgroup-construction and collective arousal are interesting but you can also look at it from a gender theory perspective. Hooliganism constructs an identity as a "true male" and their relationship to "real women" (as defined by the male group).
Great Video. Thank you.
In the Philippines, there are people who "emulates" Jesus' suffering through self-flagellation, bearing of the cross and walking far distances and of course the classic crucifixion.
Hi, it's nice to see your real name, it's also more academic and serious, but the original name of your channel was so genius it's really a pity you've changed it. Why don't you just combine both and change the name to "Andrew Mark Henry - religion for 2nd breakfast"...?
Religion for Lunch
Hi! I know this comment was made a while ago, but do you know that this is just his second, more academic, channel? Religion for Breakfast is still a channel that is alive and well.
@@8114梦见 Hi, yes, thanks, I know. His first channel is "Religion for Breakfast" and this second, more academic channel was originally named "Religion for 2nd Breakfast" which I found hilarious, I was very disappointed to see that he changed the channel's name to "Andrew Mark Henry", which is why I suggested to merge the two names.
@@Eowyn77 Oh...your OP makes more sense now. Sorry and cheers!
@@8114梦见 never mind, my bad. I should have expressed myself clearer :-) cheers!
I’m reminded of peacocks and other animals who are successful at passing on their genes despite wasting their time with rituals. But for each of the successful ones there are probably hundreds of others who wasted more time and weren’t successful.
That’s called courtship, it’s quite different from what they are discussing here
@@emmettdonkeydoodle6230 maybe read up on evolutionary biology a bit.
@@doctorshell7118 I would recommend that to you if you genuinely think this is the same as courtship. You are allowed to be reminded of it of course, but don’t then try to assert these behaviors as the same.
Right, costly signaling is useful in many systems. Of course there is more going on here than just signaling.
Would circumcision fall under he extreme ritual umbrella?
@Andrew Mark Henry
I don't know whether comments on this channel reach you. You haven't reacted to any of them here. But maybe that's because of the amount of comments on your main channel. In any case I find this topic very interesting and 2 things keep me busy in my mind.
First, the observation that people in the lower social classes are the ones exhibiting the higher "cost" and participating more often in these public rituals. And as a consequence they obtain more status which I suspect isn't permanent but has to be renewed each time the ritual is performed, as opposed to elevation of status through obtaining wealth or being born into a family with higher status. Am I wrong to think so?
And the second thing is whether these rituals are essential for the establishment of societal cohesion and in what measure. How can we achieve this in a secular society if we don't want to participate in and display religious behaviours? Some ritual behaviours will always remain, like seasonal celebrations and rituals around births and deaths. Or, like your guest mentioned, around (national) sports teams. Many streets in my country will colour orange when the national soccer team plays in the EC or WC. Do the benefits of this behaviour still outnumber the detriments? And where does cultism and religious trauma fit into this?
Would really want to ask Dr. Dimitris what he thinks about self-flagellation which is often practiced individually and therefore not intended for strengthening of social ties or lifting one’s social status. Do they do it just for… pleasure?
Ritual is not a human universal. The Amazonian Piraha don't have any religious ritual or concept of the supernatural.
Bataille
I wonder if he supports ΠΑΟΚ (PAOK)?
Maybe Olympiakos Pireus