Dungeons have been a mainstay of MMOs since their very foundation and show no signs of going away. What DO YOU think make the best MMO dungeon? Drop a comment and let us know. So it's been a while since we posted 😅. We've had this video idea cooking for a long time, since we first got deep into Project MMO, so I hope you enjoy. We're expecting to be back in a studio space in November so production can ramp up then (barring stuff like fanfest, blizzcon, RWF etc), finding time and locations to film is very difficult when working from home. In any case, for the most part this is what you can now come to expect from the channel, less videos but they should largely be high quality productions. If you're looking for the more opinion piece stuff that you might be used to drop a subscribe over on www.youtube.com/@PreachHighlights. We'll have more of that stuff going up there.
There's the gameplay focused players and there's the world/atmosphere focused players and they're hard at odds with each other. When I queue into an M+ Keystone, I don't really care about the lore of the dungeon I'm doing, I want all RP to be gone, hell I didn't care about it the first time I saw it. One of the first changes I made when setting up my UI was hiding the talking head box and muting dialogue. I wish the developers good luck if they actually intend to try to please me as well as Jimmy over there whose playing through the dungeon while trying to learn every bit of the lore so he can consider how it might change his perspective on the lore and actions of the characters of the past.
Draupnir Cave in Aion 1.0 and Beshmundir Temple in Aion 2.0 was what I can only describe as diving into a small sub-continent. You really could get lost in those places, such a rare and unique experience. It wasn't a short stroll through something, not even a compact 40 minute experience, it was legit a 2 hour D&D campaign. The trek to the entrance was its own journey, having to traverse to PvP flagged zones and everything.
@@Liratanhave to say I'm in the middle. Big lore nerd but also like gameplay, so it's tough like.. yeah the lore stuff is cool but mechanical things are in the end what I'll be actually engaged with after the first maybe second run lol
BRD is still my favorite after all of these years. I remember liking it and coming back in classic I still loved it (can't say that about everything classic I used to like). Being able to do so many different runs. Jailbreak runs, Emperor runs, HoJ runs before it dropped off Emp, arena runs, so many others. Tons of quests, bosses, tons of routes through those different bosses. Love it all and was a blast to get to experience again.
BRD was one of those I always loved, but rarely had satisfying runs in LFD. I LOVE the whole Blackrock Mountain, and always wanted to go on extended dungeon delves of it, that of course rarely happened as people only wanted to kill the minimal amount of bosses needed to get that 'dungeon complete' XP chunk. Granted it wasn't a 'run it regularly' piece of content, BRD was huge and a time commitment, but the sprawling layout was just an experience. There are entire swaths with interesting bosses that rarely get done because they're not the key bosses.
@@whitehawkomega BRD to me is still the greatest dungeon ever made in WoW. But BRD in vanilla vs any other time in WoW was a completely different thing. Vanilla BRD was the idea of turning and entire zone into a dungeon. There were dozens of quests all linked to it, multiple different sections that scaled all the way from level 48 to level 60. It was never really designed to do a full run in one go. It was more about jumping in and do the section you needed either for quests or to farm the specific drops you wanted. There was also tons of reasons to go back to it later like the fact you need to craft the sulferon hammer on the black anvil in BRD to be able to make the legendary mace hand of ragnaros. The main difference is vanilla WoW was built with a lot of RPG elements in mind and every other version of WoW was streamlined a lot more into this action adventure game that it is now. I will agree with preach that the logistical side of classic WoW is always going to be an annoying thing but once you are past the logistics of getting a group together for the specific thing you want to do the game is soo much more immersive when you are actually playing it.
BRD will always be my favorite dungeon. Different groups going on different paths, doing different bosses, and hitting the point where we're clearly underleveled but can barely manage to push through with janky strats to squeeze out an extra boss or two. But also, I fully admit that the time for BRD-likes has passed, and there's no way a BRD-like dungeon would be good in the current landscape of MMO expectations. As much as I loved it then, even I wouldn't want to stand around so long to find a group for it anymore. It's the kind of dungeon that works better in a single-player environment nowadays, imo.
The last scene of this video now stands out even more than it did when we watched it last week. RIP Bendog. What a great boy. He will be missed by all of us.
Deadmines is a great choice. So much story that built up to it over 2+ zones. For me, that story really hit home in BRD, where we discover the betrayal of Lady Prestor. Really tied it all together in a perfect way.
It's crazy too that the story line's middle was never finished. It has the begging which eludes to what's going on, you're on the trial of the corruption and even the kidnapping of Varian.. then it just stops in dustwallow, where Onyxias lair actually is. I know then theres so much else unfished in that area that might have had something to do.. maybe you were supposed to actually put the puzzle peices together as you finished it all. Heck Varian used to be under Alcatraz island and you could find him in vanilla up to a certain patch. But in the end, the trial goes cold about in the early-mid game and only semi randomly comes back up right at the end. There's a lot of weird disjunction in vanilla wow like that lots of unfished or weirdly put together stories. The one phylactery thing in plague lands, the Scarlets and Fairbanks, the random engjne in badlands, shade of eranikus quest line randomy ending and the story being concluded in the scepter bearer quest line.. Heck! In the deadmines alone, you know there's a connection between Zanzil's zombie voodoo and the Defias? Ever wonder why there's undead in the one location? You remember the rogue quests in barrens and West Fall, that have you going to venture Co towers to find Zanzil's mixture? Yeah if you do a huge amount of completely disjointed quests, on spefici classes and factions across the world.. you find out the venture Co got Zanzil's mixture from stranglethorn, and sent it across the world to sell via those towers, hence how the Defias got a small amount. This is probably the best example of totally disjointed quest design, but in some ways isnt that cool as heck? Just a shame most of these were never finished at all. Gosh, black riders remember them?
18:50 That section with content creators telling their favourite dungeons is great - really nails it with the argument "Everyone wants something slightly different". Great video, Preach!
My favourite dungeon is Court of Stars. I love how every run can be different due to all the class and profession specific things in there. It's also beautiful to look at, not too long and has some clever events. The lore and story are also very cool. It's perfect!
The absolute best experience ever was doing the Lost City of Tovir before the nerfs. The haunting music in the background for hours. The hard-core mechanics actually worked very well for that dungeon out of all of them in cataclysm.
I really liked Ghimlyt Dark in FFXIV, it was the first dungeon that really broke the mould, up until then, fighting the Garleans hadnt really been depicted outside of the "End of an Era" cinematic, so to have a dungeon where we fought our way through the trenches of a death filled battlefield, with airships, paratroopers and anti aircraft guns shooting off in the distance, not just with our party, but alongside city leaders, Scions and other soldiers, it felt amazing
Always one of my favorites as well, though I think the final boss fight is a little weak compared to other contenders. The Twinning, Ktisis Hyperborea, Vanaspati, The Dead Ends and Amaurot are my favorites, but I don't think I could pick one.
Blackrock Depths is by far the best dungeon in the history of MMO's, and that is big and sprawling. You can choose to either do a full quest run, maybe only do the pre-key part. Maybe you wanna do an arena run or maybe take shortcuts and lavajump straight to the end to farm the Emperor, and much more. Such a good dungeon.
For me it’s gotta be new and old Karazhan. Both gigantic in their own right, packed with lore, mystery, a feeling of adventure, and both sporting very unique and creative themes. Ulduar and Uldum are my runner ups for the same reasons
LBRS and BRD being in the same mountain, and UBRS being literally visible from within LBRS back in the day, really made it feel like a genuine bad-guy city that we'd invaded with it's own life and characters. Suramar more or less managed to capture a similar feeling in Legion but was outdoor content; but other than that they're really never come close to anything like it.
My fav one is probably the twinning from FF14 the music is great but the highlight are the datalogs that you find through out the dungeon once you read them all you put 2 and 2 together and the final boss shows up and its not the Shadowbringers boss music, because of the thing you found out by reading the datalogs i loved that. and from WOW its probably the arcway, its a classic dungeon setting the "underground sewer" but with a twist, it had the withered that were there for the magic, the legion doing their shady work corroborating with the nightborn and other sewer denizens that were the result of all the magical waste.
One of my fondest WoW memories is doing a full run of Blackrock Depths when I was leveling a Heal Paladin during Mists. 5.1 it was, I believe. We did EVERY boss. Even the optional one we needed the Dark Iron Runes or whatever they were called for. The boss that you can only fight if everybody loots everything in that general area and doesn't leave. And to cap it off, we did the final boss *severely* *under* *level* where the tank would regularly take one of those extra heavy hits because they were four levels lower. I think the boss was level 58, the tank was 54 and I was 52. It was exhilarating, and we pulled through without a single person biting the dust. Just remembering makes me wish for a similar experience in other games. However. It also took a long, long time. To this day I am surprised that a group of completely random players stuck through until the end. Those moments are oh so very rare. No matter the time period. Which is why I don't want these massive dungeons to be a mandatory part of any game. But to have the option to just continue after the current portion is done would ideal. But I don't think current MMO design allows for this sort of dungeon to exist again. It would have to be the central "dungeon" on release and you'd return to it every time. Which could make for interesting design on every level, truth be told. I just don't think it will ever happen.
Dude, I've been watching your content since early MOP and this is an incredibly well done and well written video. It's crazy to see how far you've come as a content creator. Kudos to you and everything you've been able to accomplish covering video games in general. It's good to see good people doing good things. Best to you, your family, and your entire team.
I think it's fascinating the way dungeon design evolves alongside it's audience. Like playing classic, I heard for years how much people liked the huge sprawling dungeons, yet the classic playerbase found ways to effectively speed run them so they behaved like how more modern blizz dungeon design does. It really shows dungeons went the way they did for a reason.
Love the legacy videos (and the outakes are great!) For the dungeons, you make the point a few times that many really enjoy the largescale exploration the first time, but no one wants to farm that. I think there needs to be a difference in farmable content and story content, and having multiple versions of the same dungeon accomplish that.
It's the age-old make it boring immediately because it'll become boring eventually spiel. Hard disagree. Having different kinds sounds like a good compromise, yeah.
My favorite dungeon experience was Scarlet Monastery. It’s not the best but the feeling I got as a kid of finding this random place on a hill after powerful mobs and then forming a party going in and keep seeing how the place opens up to courtyard thinking how much farther can I go was just magical. I feel zones that could be solo or with 2 people and curated could be super fun to see. Like in a jrpg where you stumble upon a cave and just go explore but has specific assets to that place.
Black Rook hold is my favorite, climbing a tower with a lot of enemies, interesting bosses and even some fun gimmick stuff like dodge the rocks, also it might be that i did that place like 500+ times every patch in legion for a titanforged relic and leggo chances lol, still love that place
I miss dungeons being bigger than even some game continents. I remember Aion 1.0's dungeons which culminated in Draupnir Caverns were a multi-hour affair and something you can get lost in with massive vertical heights and a free-form way to traverse to the final boss in an epic arena. It really felt like a long D&D session.
fuckin loved that part with the people voicing their fav dungeons. Everyone was SOOOOO varied in responses. Great video preach, so happy to support you here and twitch man. Your community rocks!
Dude, this video was awesome, just so fun to listen to, really hope this does well and more content like this comes out. Also deadmines, back in 2006 that was my first dungeon I went into, I had 0 clue what I was doing, we spent 2-3 hours in there and omg, as a nerd who had that time it was amazing.
Guild Wars 1 man. Every story mission was basically a dungeon. And then.... they added massive multi level dungeons years later. Such and incredible game.
There are two moments in classic wow that left me awestruck. One of them was seeing the boat for the first time in deadmines. The scenery shift from that tiny little cave into the giant room. It reminded me of bowser’s submarine in Mario 64. I remember every detail of that moment so vividly. The second was seeing the waterfall in Maraudon for similar reasons. You’re going through a gross pestilent cave and it opens up to a vibrant lush area like the waterfall.
Another banger of a vid. Well done! BRD has a special little place for me, but I think the ideal setup to me is having mega dungeons that are one continuous zone that you can also split up into 2 or 3 parts (DM, etc). That way you can target certain sections and not have to do the whole thing every time.
The only thing that could make me smile more than a new legacy video from Preach is when that unmistakable music comes in at 21:50...I swear whenever you heard that music play, you know you were about to watch something golden. Never stop Mike!
My favourite is Castle Zvahl from FFXI. It's the atmosphere and the time you go in the Main Scenario originally was super freaking awesome and the fact it was super dangerous to enter in just made it really cool to get through at the end and going through the ending that it had which kinda made me swell up slightly.
imo thats exactly what difficulty tiers like normal/heroic/mythic/mythic+ serve for and enough people don't seem to give it credit for, you can do dungeons as you level thru the zone as part of the story and do it on normal or heroic and be able to take your time and admire and explore, you can do that after levelling in mythic to get some good gear at the start of an expac and then you can have fun solving the puzzle of how to do these fast and efficient at end game with mythic+ . Although for some reason people tend to mostly want to rush normals and heroics because they want to level fast and then skip mythic into mythic+ for the loot, normally one would expect people would be driven then to try forms of social engagement like meeting people in a dungeon and exploring or having a really good mythic+ pug and instead of forming guilds and communities around these interests they mostly walk around solo imagining themselves as ronin in the wilderness. At heart, and i know this point is very redundant but as pointed seems to be often forgotten, wow is a social games and the players have to do their part of searching for where they want to belong in the game or even make their own little corner. Ofc it's blizzes job then to make sure people feel driven and that the time commitment of creating said communities would be worth it, which they were failing miserably but DF truly feels like a breath of fresh air after SL , and despite its flaws it's just getting better. Great video, always love seeing a legacy video be dropped, amazing editing and 10/10 skits.
Hi Preach team, Long ago when you were releasing the "legacy of X class in WoW" (i specifically remember the mage and wrath of Litch king legacy being released) I was struggling hard-core in life (messy break up) and spending 14+ hours In bed each day. For whatever reason I binge watched your legacy videos over and over while laying in bed. That content helped me during a challenging time in my life - even if just to provide an escape from the horrible funk i was in. Seeing another legacy be posted reminded me of the thankfulness I had for your content during that time. Doing much better with a full time job and a wonderful lady in my life (am I tearing up slightly right now??). Just wanted to say thank you for helping someone through a tough time years ago. You never know who you might be impacting!
I really like how you lay out the various design goals a dungeon needs to fulfill, and that is something that every developer has to not only solve, but also stick their guns to. BRD makes great memories. But nobody's running BRD every day or even every week - that's the whole reason why it feels special. I struggle to recall many WoW dungeons without looking them up because I have done them so many times they really just blur out and fade. If you show me a list, I'll remember them, yeah - but otherwise it's just another day in the office.
I saw the title on my phones notifications and I LOST IT! I recently binged all the other legacies and have been wishing they'd come back. Big hype Preach and Team! ❤
It's only at minute 21:46 that what you started saying made my heart melt. Basically, I was a private server player that never went beyond WOTLK. And around 2013 I found your channel and liked the way you strut your stuff. Legacy content that I felt was relevant to me and I wanted to see on youtube. Then I saw your streams and saw your more unedited and rawer side. It's then that I felt a kinship watching both you and your friend. Speaking exclusively from a para social perspective, where I have never met you or anyone you talk about in person, just observing, I felt that distance that formed years ago. And I understand that life does what life does, and I am not here to point fingers, I am just giving an honest critique of your content with all the relevant info that went into formulating this opinion. This stuff is great, the production value is the best it's ever been, you're keeping it nice and tight. [from an alternate dimension, I saw the same video in your 2013 style, and the cave style antics and shenaniganry that would have made up the live portion of this video] And that made me smile. I felt like a kid again. Please make more of this kind of content and be relaxed in your life knowing that you are doing what keeps you happy
Darkness Falls in Dark Age of Camelot sticks out to me at spontaneous thought. It was available in different wings for different levels from like level 15-20 all the way to max level, with a raid component tacked on toward the deepest levels, without being instanced content. Also, only available to ENTER for one faction (of three, for those who are unfimilar with DAoC) at a time, bound by keeps taken in the Realm vs Realm PVP system. So people could of course have their sneaky stealther character logged in in there and grief the faction that had their portal open, or when the switch happened a some PvP groups could enter and wipe out the opposition faction players. Just so many of the MMO systems tacked on to one dungeon.
Agree, everyone here talked about wow or ff, but darkness falls to me is the greatest dungeon ive ever been in. It just had everything and for almost every level range.
@@candykit5382 In a way I guess it's almost disingenuous, just because it is so different. But I'd like to see a lot of more that was at play in DF be applied in dungeons in general, not as a new standard, but as an alternative dungeon among the rest - such as it was in DAoC.
I always go back to DAoC when thinking about dungeons, those non-instanced grindfests that were just so much fun. Nisse's Lair, Varulvhamn, Spindelhalla, and DF when it was available (and something to go out and fight for when it wasn't). Even the Labyrinth had its appeal even though the game was in rough shape at that point. But yeah, DF. AJing Albs at Legion never got old.
This was amazing! Loved the gags, the music, and the in depth dive. As someone who's played quite a few mmos over the years- I first off agree about deadmines... and I think part of it also ties in with the limits. Everyone is low level and still learning and it really is a great entrypoint. I think my favorite part of the older school design was that exploration and that tangible danger. I certainly miss it. I'm a long time XIV player and recently have been tackling a variant dungeon blind with some friends, while drinking. It's been some of the most fun I've had in a while. I really hope they iterate on it in dawntrail- but your video also reminded me of the different paths in GW2 dungeons and I kind of want to convince some friends to go revisit/give it a try.
Finally. After 84 years of waiting. I love this series, and this needs to come back Preach! It's how I found your channel was through your Warrior Legacy video
I don't see why we can't have both LFD and "explorable dungeons". Make a handful of dungeons not selectable in the LFD. They are large, winding, easy to get lost in, and you must create your own group for them. But the loot is REWARDING and perhaps there is a seperate currency tied to them. I'm a fan of the Classic Dungeons and would like to see something more along the lines of those in Retail
This was a great video!! It would never work now, and it's not a 'good thing', but as an EQ boomer, I loved the feeling of a dungeon and thinking, "If I die here, I'm done and I'll never get my corpse back." It was a real sense of danger, even if it's not practical.
I think there is several social thing that need to be fixed before MMO can come back. one is the fact that today few peaple can have several hours for themself. there is a reason why COD games have shrunk so much that each match is only 3-6 min long. and that is because peaple can only play for 3-6 min at a time.
I love massive dungeons, as long as the time spent= rewards earned. I dont want to spend all day in a dungeon if im walking away with 1 item or a 1 level.
My favorite dungeon of all time was Black rock- the WHOLE THING. I remember the moment it became my favorite too. Took the group FIVE HOURS to do, but at the time me and one of the DPS didn't know how big the instance actually was (This was near the end of BC). We died a lot especially as the bosses and trash got higher level than us, but we had a blast. We chatted, strategized, even took a 30 minute break half way to recoup a bit. I think what made it memorable one, it was all new to me and this other DPS, and the others obviously enjoyed the challenge as we progressively got out matched by the higher level stuff deeper in. We died a lot, but we always got back up, laughed, and went at it harder. Now a days as an adult I can't dedicate that much time anymore, but it still cemented itself as my favorite dungeon ever. I miss those days, but I also enjoy the quicker stuff especially since my free time has shrunk over the years. Growing up sucks.
I Really Really love the vanilla wow dungeons, imo its a big thing for me to get lost in a dungeon on the 1st run. Usually by doing it over and over you'll know the route by heart but the 1st run is huge for me and I love getting lost in dungeons the 1st time. BRD is the best dungeon ever made in any mmo made till today and thats by FAR
Great video! Maybe they could have a Scenario-style mode you'd have to complete once per account to unlock a dungeon and this mode includes the story, RP and nice fixed rewards to boost your character's strength. Then, once unlocked, it's available in a LFD tool in s shorter format.
Great video. i do not agree in many points but i wil add my 2 cents below: Regarding Guild Wars 2 dungeons and how some players find them intricate, even though they may not be as complex as they seem, In my view, dungeons offer a unique and engaging experience that sets them apart from other MMOs. First off, it's essential to acknowledge that Guild Wars 2 dungeons are not without their flaws. ivbeen playing Wow for 7 yrs and GW2 since launch. They haven't received many of the recent core mechanics and quality-of-life improvements present in the game today. Additionally, the rewards for completing them may not always match the time and effort invested (actualy. they simply don't), making them less appealing to veteran players and even fro new players who seeks only profits. However, despite these shortcomings, Guild Wars 2 dungeons remain captivating for several reasons. One of the standout features of these dungeons is the multiple paths they offer. This diversity ensures that each run is distinct, something we cannot say from WoW Dungeons (specially previous WotLK) keeping the content fresh and exciting. It encourages exploration, aligning with Guild Wars 2's core philosophy that values discovery and adventure. Unlike some other MMOs, like WoW, where dungeons can feel like tedious, time-gated slogs with unnecessary walking and no real storytelling connection, for me, Guild Wars 2 dungeons manage to strike a more balanced experience between gameplay and narrative. Again: narrative is more elaborate in GW2 so it's expected. Speaking of storytelling, GW2 dungeons are rich in narrative elements. They play a crucial role in advancing the game's overarching story, making them appealing to players who enjoy immersive storytelling. This is in contrast to players solely focused on loot and gear, as some MMOs tend to cater to. Again: the game HAS a philosophy. The way i see it, it's important to recognize this and adding complexity and unique content to dungeon formats, as seen in Guild Wars 2, aligns with THAT developer's philosophy and the game's core identity. It's not just about quick MOBA-style battles or flashy rewards; it's about weaving an engaging narrative into the gameplay experience. Dungeons in GW2 are OLD so again, we MUST aknowledge they def can be immproved yet when reviewing MMOs, it's vital to consider whether dungeons are an integral part of the game's identity or merely a segmented add-on. IMHO, dungeons in the MMO genre should integrate storytelling seamlessly into the gameplay, creating a distinct experience compared to open-world PvE. Foir fast paced quick reward high dopamine content, GW2 created FRactals and after that, more chalenging, they created Strikes (end hard content being RAIDS ofc). a perfect-ish balance between dificulty and quickness with story elements in a small dose. Dungeons should feel contained and integral to the game's world rather than being isolated segments with loading screens, which can disrupt the immersion and overall MMO experience. TL;DR: In the end, Guild Wars 2 dungeons, and the game as a whole, might not be for those seeking quick loot and flashy, dopamine-inducing experiences. Guild Wars 2 shines with its unmatched combat system, diverse professions, and classes. For players who dismiss storytelling as 'trash' or 'filler,' they might miss out on the true essence of what makes GW2 special. Great TBT video! Preacher!
getting into arguments on classic whenever I call Deadmines, VC, it helps people to get their pixelated grapes in twist. "Its called DM, nobody ever called it VC~!!"
I always loved gnomergan when I was younger, the big open area, the cool atmosphere, and the tippy tap of the metal floor. A very nostalgic dungeon for me that I still love to see in random dungeon que. A close second is halls of lightning from wrath.
Really good video! I think the thing about classic MMOs like EQ, Ultima, Asheron's Call that you touched on a tad was great, but the key design to those MMOs were at their core/heart...they were designed to literally be Massive Multi-Player Online games, and to not be as narrow as more modern MMOs are today. The idea was to get as many people online together, and to "live out" in a seemingly open world where you could do anything you wanted, basically bring DnD paper RPGs to life. There was lore and quests, but used more like DnD campaigns that you can play out with friends, people being social, etc. Not each dungeon or raid being serialized to be apart of a overall story. Singular mini stories at most. The open world being random and difficult as the dungeons so the waiting room like design was to faciliate people have to band together old school RPG style because the journey was made to be difficult solo, as why else play a MMO if you can get somewhere on your own...etc. Just really old pure game design. I do miss it, and I don't at the same time. Like the video says, there's no real "one way" or "best way". In the end I think MMOs need to try and offer everything...play with different designs...make non-linear once or twice, linear the next, etc. Keep things moving, but that's just me. I think variety is the best spice of life, doesn't make each time pleasant, but it does make memories and things fresh
This. Is amaaaaaazing!! I had forgotten how much I adore the PG Legacy vids. Never has the history of gaming been so engaging. This is not 2nd-monitor-background-lullaby stuff to farm to for me. They make me want to grab some popcorn and settle in. Mini skits along the way are **mwah!** 👌🏻 Awesome that these are making a return. Suddenly hopeful again for a Legacy of the Shaman. (It's only been 117 years, I'm fine! Don't mind me over here in the corner "manifesting."👵😄 )
What makes a great dungeon is size. I really enjoyed getting lost in classic dungeons, exploring them and discovering stuff while making new friends. In retail instead of exploring dungeons you go from one arena to the other and you develop hate for the total strangers around you while everyone learn half a million boss mechanic.
So great to see Legacy back. Loved the video. I have a love/hate relationship with Blackrock Depths. It's the first WoW dungeon I ever ran - aaand immediately died because it turned out you can't just walk into a dungeon and solo it. It's also the first dungeon I got lost in and someone from the group had to come back for me (super grateful I wasn't kicked lol). And it's the first dungeon I went back to solo-farm. Yes, I got lost and had to hearth out. Happy to report years later I can get just as lost running BRD as I did those first times and I hate it so much lmao. I also really like the thematics of it. Maraudon can drown in a pit of lava though. A curse upon whoever designed that dungeon.
i keep thinking about the classic Temple of Atal'Hakkar dungeon (also known as Sunken Temple). But your right deadmines even after 18 years still brings back my love of exploring this game
I absolutely agree with Deadmines, it's easily my favourite and holds the moment I got hooked on WoW itself. I started playing as a Night Elf druid and it was my first dungeon. I got grouped with a mage who had the Emberstone Staff and I just loved how it looked and absolutely needed it. It took me 3 runs before I got it and kept it until the staff that drops in SM (can't remember the name of it)
Note that the people that made Everquest played MUDs - in particular Sojourn. That's probably part of where they got the large, sprawling dungeons there - the dungeons were massive, and there were some raid fights in Sojourn that could take literally DAYS to complete. The target demographic for MUDs were basically college students who had tons of time to burn.
I just started playing Alliance on a vanilla server for the first time ever and questing through Elwynn Forest and Westfall without mods has made me enjoying reading the text quest for locations and clues. The Defias brotherhood story line has been so incredibly fun that getting into Deadmines felt very important and intimidating. Yeah I've done Deadmines through wotlk and cata RDF, but it doesn't hold that same gravitas.
Are you shittinng me. A Legacy video?! It's been so long! btw, second Legacy vid you start with BB music mate. Means quality. Edit: Ok, Ben Dog brings this video to a solid 11/10
Blackrock Depths is my most memorable dungeon, followed by Grim Batol. I think they capture the aspects I look for most in a dungeon. Grand spectacle for a smaller closeknit group, variety within the content yet cohesive storytelling, and difficulty and teamwork required to experience all it has to offer. And with all that said, I wouldn't do them more than.... once or twice a month at best.
Favorite dungeon of all time? Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard). --Story leading into it is something most wouldn't pay attention to or even remember after all the big, bombastic stuff ('NPCs have lives outside your field of view' type storytelling). --Optional notes which can be read at any time along the way or after, adding context/flavor to an already unsettling place. --Atmosphere continuously keeps you on edge, especially when a demon-summoning cult didn't make the place feel so utterly _wrong._ --Enemy placement/variety is not only functional but tells an unspoken story on its own, even moreso when names of each are researched (Dantalion/Piscodemon/etc). --Not too long and not too short, you get the full experience by just carving your way through the various rooms (all decorated with words written in blood by-the-by). --The moment you re-encounter Edda and she looks back at you while smiling before letting loose the most MANIACAL AND INSANITY-FILLED GRIN I have ever seen. This look shook me the first time I saw it and had me thinking about it for months, to the point that her words combined with it had me questioning my _plot armor._ Seriously, if you play FFXIV and you never got around to doing it, go through Tam Tara Hard synced and look all about the place as you take in the altogether messed up ambience (as well as listen to someone absolutely shred the shamisen in the backing track, _'Dark Vows'._
Great video. I can at least contribute a lil nugget of wisdom to this one. During a convention in germany about table top games there was one lecture about dungeons, that also viewed dungeons in video games, but focused on the table top dungeons in the end. And there were a few quotes that stuck with me all the years since then and during my time as a game master. "A dungeon can be anything, as long as it a closed off enviourment with opposing forces and any kind of reward waiting for them. The area can be in a closed room or a cave or even an open market, as long as the players (for the time being) can´t leave the area. For example guard block the way out. A reward can be anything from loot, to a story progession or just insight for the characters personal interest." "When designing traps and encounters in a dungeon always consider -nothing- to be an option. If every chest has massive loot in them or even tiny amount this washes down how players see loot in the first place. When in every room of a manor is a monster encounter it strains the players and the gametime. To have nothing there keeps them on edge because they don´t know when there will be something, or not" Thank you for reading
Back in vanilla i used to make new characters constantly just so i could do the defias brotherhood quest chain and journey into deadmines for that characters first time! And every time it was just as exciting as the last
Pretty good summary! *My wishes for WoWs "dungeon" future:* Basic dungeons are mega-dungeons and for LFG and M+ you just carve out certain areas to complete to finish the run. The Basic-Version stays intact as m+0 or some higher tuning (similar to Dawn of the Infinites in 10.1.5) so you can explore and gear up in a single run without the RNG group or timer breathing down your neck. Looking back for example the old 4 Auchindoun Dungeons from Outland could be one massive area connected via corner segments in the major structure of the remained ruins.
Yep, I wish it was easier to find story mode groups to do the dungeon in a slow pace and get all the story/exploration in, then separate groups for speedrunning smaller parts of them ad nauseum later on for loot/xp farming. The oldschool story exploration goes out the window in a random group zergrush slaughterfest.
My favorite Everquest dungeon was Akheva. It was so spooky when I played it, and the little centi dudes had their own language that could be translated. More recently, I love Ktisis.
A good dungeon is a big sprawling thing with deep lore with the characters and terrain within that rewards you for making it through certain points. Multiple paths. Multiple options.
I definitely enjoyed this video but I can't believe you didn't talk about Blackrock Depths. I think it's such a stand out and special dungeon that deserves more attention and conversation.
Must've had my longest ever dungeon in there back in vanilla, went on for like... 8-9 hours? With like dinner breaks, people leaving and having to look for another player, respawning thrash when you went back to the portal go grab the new guy etc. That was an outlier, but anything even close to that wouldn't be acceptable today, haha.
@@albinjarnroth1065 I only experienced it for the first time in Classic. Honestly I want more game design like that. Bring it back I say! I'm a big fan of the tabletop inspired approach to MMO game design
@@pancakejamboree8700 I guess if the MMO was designed from the ground up for it, it WOULD be acceptable (as Preach pointed out in the video, it sort of was back when they made everything pre-Dire Maul, and expectations of the player base was widely different at that time, at least among those of us who played MMOs before), but it's hard to sell something that would fit the first M of MMO with that today sadly. Maybe there could be some sort of MMO Rogue Lite dungeon crawler with that sort of design today, I dunno. :)
@@albinjarnroth1065 My hope for the future is a new MMO with a lot of the old game design philosophies. It wouldn't be the most popular game. But it would satisfy that demographic of people like me who are wanting that particular MMO experience. One can dream
Brd is a good dungeon but i think for alot of people its not really that memorable outside of that. Its just very standard looking with standard enemies, but its sheer size means theres different sections that you aim for. Sure i remember doing the jump into the lava skip for emp runs. Is that what I consider super fun? Eh.
Even though I'm a sucker for quick and compact, deadmines really hits everywhere. It's the only classic dungeon I genuinely love running repeatedly, it has everything you want, to epic boss fights and encounters to some of the best loot available at that level. You just can't go wrong with the deadmines. In the same way, I think Tasavesh really nails it to what dungeons should be, a fun and interesting dungeon with unique and fun encounters to a rich story that is really well told just by its environment all to top it off with an incredibly boss fight.
For me, the biggest joy of playing games is the sense of discovery. Exploring dangerous areas for rich rewards. Not knowing what's around the next corner. Seeing amazing things for the first time. Learning and mastering the systems and enemies. MMO content is kind of the antithesis of that because it is (and MUST be) designed to be repeatable. Content that is amazing but one-and-done is just a waste to create for an MMO/live service, especially if it eventually becomes obsolete and skipped over. Its effort you could instead spend on content that supports your game well into the future and expands the variety of things players can do. Big exploratory dungeons with loads of off paths and secrets and puzzles are awesome... the first time. Once you know everything, the magic is gone and you just want a tight gameplay experience that has good rewards and doesn't drag on too long. So with that in mind I feel like the ideal content for MMOs is something that's a little different every time you go. Lots of randomization and roguelike elements. Random room layouts, random spawns, random chests, random bosses, random mechanics. While yes you will eventually see everything, I feel like it helps keep the experience feeling fresh and fun for much longer than a beautifully handcrafted linear experience which is only cool the first time and after that is just a chore on a checklist.
Maybe this is nostalgia talking, but as much as I love mythic plus, what I miss from dungeons in all three mmos I play today, is feeling that they are alive - like I felt back in classic WoW. Brd being my best example, it feels like a city that people live in. Ff14 dungeons feel like a movie youre watching to tell you the story, wow dungeons even the megadungeons feel like their purpose is to turn into mythic plus, gw2 fractals are kinda similar to mythic plus. It might also be the fact that mass pulling in dungeons is the standard now, rather than slow pulls with cc
Speedrunning Guild Wars 2 dungeons is an experience that I will treasure for the rest of my life. It makes me sad that almost nobody will ever have that experience again.
City of Heroes had something called a Task Force that took forever to get through. If you think forty minutes to an hour is a long time, that's nothing compared to doing a Task Force. I remember my friend doing Everquest raids, and those things took forever as well.
Indeed, IIRC CoH task forces were a string of anything between 5 (newer content) and 15 (older content) instanced missions initially intended for a group to play over a couple of DAYS. And many of those missions would be extremely bog standard. And you couldn’t go do anything else without permanently quitting the team IIRC. They got quite good at making them shorter and much more engaging over time though, and could be knocked out in a couple of hours.
Dungeons have been a mainstay of MMOs since their very foundation and show no signs of going away. What DO YOU think make the best MMO dungeon? Drop a comment and let us know.
So it's been a while since we posted 😅. We've had this video idea cooking for a long time, since we first got deep into Project MMO, so I hope you enjoy. We're expecting to be back in a studio space in November so production can ramp up then (barring stuff like fanfest, blizzcon, RWF etc), finding time and locations to film is very difficult when working from home. In any case, for the most part this is what you can now come to expect from the channel, less videos but they should largely be high quality productions. If you're looking for the more opinion piece stuff that you might be used to drop a subscribe over on www.youtube.com/@PreachHighlights. We'll have more of that stuff going up there.
There's the gameplay focused players and there's the world/atmosphere focused players and they're hard at odds with each other. When I queue into an M+ Keystone, I don't really care about the lore of the dungeon I'm doing, I want all RP to be gone, hell I didn't care about it the first time I saw it. One of the first changes I made when setting up my UI was hiding the talking head box and muting dialogue. I wish the developers good luck if they actually intend to try to please me as well as Jimmy over there whose playing through the dungeon while trying to learn every bit of the lore so he can consider how it might change his perspective on the lore and actions of the characters of the past.
Ben is such a cutie! Glad you included him ❤
Draupnir Cave in Aion 1.0 and Beshmundir Temple in Aion 2.0 was what I can only describe as diving into a small sub-continent. You really could get lost in those places, such a rare and unique experience. It wasn't a short stroll through something, not even a compact 40 minute experience, it was legit a 2 hour D&D campaign. The trek to the entrance was its own journey, having to traverse to PvP flagged zones and everything.
Play Turtle WoW to bring back some wonder and excitement :)
@@Liratanhave to say I'm in the middle. Big lore nerd but also like gameplay, so it's tough like.. yeah the lore stuff is cool but mechanical things are in the end what I'll be actually engaged with after the first maybe second run lol
BRD is still my favorite after all of these years. I remember liking it and coming back in classic I still loved it (can't say that about everything classic I used to like). Being able to do so many different runs. Jailbreak runs, Emperor runs, HoJ runs before it dropped off Emp, arena runs, so many others. Tons of quests, bosses, tons of routes through those different bosses. Love it all and was a blast to get to experience again.
BRD was one of those I always loved, but rarely had satisfying runs in LFD. I LOVE the whole Blackrock Mountain, and always wanted to go on extended dungeon delves of it, that of course rarely happened as people only wanted to kill the minimal amount of bosses needed to get that 'dungeon complete' XP chunk. Granted it wasn't a 'run it regularly' piece of content, BRD was huge and a time commitment, but the sprawling layout was just an experience. There are entire swaths with interesting bosses that rarely get done because they're not the key bosses.
@@whitehawkomega BRD to me is still the greatest dungeon ever made in WoW. But BRD in vanilla vs any other time in WoW was a completely different thing. Vanilla BRD was the idea of turning and entire zone into a dungeon. There were dozens of quests all linked to it, multiple different sections that scaled all the way from level 48 to level 60. It was never really designed to do a full run in one go. It was more about jumping in and do the section you needed either for quests or to farm the specific drops you wanted. There was also tons of reasons to go back to it later like the fact you need to craft the sulferon hammer on the black anvil in BRD to be able to make the legendary mace hand of ragnaros.
The main difference is vanilla WoW was built with a lot of RPG elements in mind and every other version of WoW was streamlined a lot more into this action adventure game that it is now.
I will agree with preach that the logistical side of classic WoW is always going to be an annoying thing but once you are past the logistics of getting a group together for the specific thing you want to do the game is soo much more immersive when you are actually playing it.
That and deadmines are easily my favorite dungeons.
It really nailed the mark they were going for of having multiple different runs and not expecting to full clear every time
BRD will always be my favorite dungeon. Different groups going on different paths, doing different bosses, and hitting the point where we're clearly underleveled but can barely manage to push through with janky strats to squeeze out an extra boss or two. But also, I fully admit that the time for BRD-likes has passed, and there's no way a BRD-like dungeon would be good in the current landscape of MMO expectations. As much as I loved it then, even I wouldn't want to stand around so long to find a group for it anymore. It's the kind of dungeon that works better in a single-player environment nowadays, imo.
Finally another Legacy video! Not what I was expecting as far as the topic goes, but a welcome surprise regardless
Same, Hunters got dirty with the legacy videos, but at least is something
@@williamcorteslugo5393I don’t think so
My favorite dungeon is Blackrock Depths. So much variety and old school D&D dungeon feel.
The last scene of this video now stands out even more than it did when we watched it last week.
RIP Bendog. What a great boy. He will be missed by all of us.
Deadmines is a great choice. So much story that built up to it over 2+ zones. For me, that story really hit home in BRD, where we discover the betrayal of Lady Prestor. Really tied it all together in a perfect way.
Getting there was the worst from my experience getting killed so many times.
I’m so glad I switched to alliance for classic to experience the alliance Ony attunement and lady prestor
Deadmines is my favorite dungeon. So many fun memories there.
It's crazy too that the story line's middle was never finished. It has the begging which eludes to what's going on, you're on the trial of the corruption and even the kidnapping of Varian.. then it just stops in dustwallow, where Onyxias lair actually is. I know then theres so much else unfished in that area that might have had something to do.. maybe you were supposed to actually put the puzzle peices together as you finished it all. Heck Varian used to be under Alcatraz island and you could find him in vanilla up to a certain patch.
But in the end, the trial goes cold about in the early-mid game and only semi randomly comes back up right at the end.
There's a lot of weird disjunction in vanilla wow like that lots of unfished or weirdly put together stories.
The one phylactery thing in plague lands, the Scarlets and Fairbanks, the random engjne in badlands, shade of eranikus quest line randomy ending and the story being concluded in the scepter bearer quest line..
Heck! In the deadmines alone, you know there's a connection between Zanzil's zombie voodoo and the Defias? Ever wonder why there's undead in the one location? You remember the rogue quests in barrens and West Fall, that have you going to venture Co towers to find Zanzil's mixture? Yeah if you do a huge amount of completely disjointed quests, on spefici classes and factions across the world.. you find out the venture Co got Zanzil's mixture from stranglethorn, and sent it across the world to sell via those towers, hence how the Defias got a small amount. This is probably the best example of totally disjointed quest design, but in some ways isnt that cool as heck? Just a shame most of these were never finished at all.
Gosh, black riders remember them?
18:50 That section with content creators telling their favourite dungeons is great - really nails it with the argument "Everyone wants something slightly different".
Great video, Preach!
My favourite dungeon is Court of Stars.
I love how every run can be different due to all the class and profession specific things in there. It's also beautiful to look at, not too long and has some clever events. The lore and story are also very cool.
It's perfect!
The absolute best experience ever was doing the Lost City of Tovir before the nerfs. The haunting music in the background for hours. The hard-core mechanics actually worked very well for that dungeon out of all of them in cataclysm.
I really liked Ghimlyt Dark in FFXIV, it was the first dungeon that really broke the mould, up until then, fighting the Garleans hadnt really been depicted outside of the "End of an Era" cinematic, so to have a dungeon where we fought our way through the trenches of a death filled battlefield, with airships, paratroopers and anti aircraft guns shooting off in the distance, not just with our party, but alongside city leaders, Scions and other soldiers, it felt amazing
Always one of my favorites as well, though I think the final boss fight is a little weak compared to other contenders. The Twinning, Ktisis Hyperborea, Vanaspati, The Dead Ends and Amaurot are my favorites, but I don't think I could pick one.
Blackrock Depths is by far the best dungeon in the history of MMO's, and that is big and sprawling. You can choose to either do a full quest run, maybe only do the pre-key part. Maybe you wanna do an arena run or maybe take shortcuts and lavajump straight to the end to farm the Emperor, and much more. Such a good dungeon.
For me it’s gotta be new and old Karazhan. Both gigantic in their own right, packed with lore, mystery, a feeling of adventure, and both sporting very unique and creative themes. Ulduar and Uldum are my runner ups for the same reasons
It's a dungeon that actually feels like an entire zone you have to traverse with 4 other ppl because of its dangers.
LBRS and BRD being in the same mountain, and UBRS being literally visible from within LBRS back in the day, really made it feel like a genuine bad-guy city that we'd invaded with it's own life and characters. Suramar more or less managed to capture a similar feeling in Legion but was outdoor content; but other than that they're really never come close to anything like it.
BRD is a huge part of why I played classic! Hoping to make it there in HC eventually
Its cool but it got annoying if you wanted to do the entire thing and you are forced to quit playing because of an unexpected event
Your legacy videos are amazing, and this was no different. Much appreciation this was a very fun watch
My fav one is probably the twinning from FF14 the music is great but the highlight are the datalogs that you find through out the dungeon once you read them all you put 2 and 2 together and the final boss shows up and its not the Shadowbringers boss music, because of the thing you found out by reading the datalogs i loved that. and from WOW its probably the arcway, its a classic dungeon setting the "underground sewer" but with a twist, it had the withered that were there for the magic, the legion doing their shady work corroborating with the nightborn and other sewer denizens that were the result of all the magical waste.
One of my fondest WoW memories is doing a full run of Blackrock Depths when I was leveling a Heal Paladin during Mists. 5.1 it was, I believe. We did EVERY boss. Even the optional one we needed the Dark Iron Runes or whatever they were called for. The boss that you can only fight if everybody loots everything in that general area and doesn't leave. And to cap it off, we did the final boss *severely* *under* *level* where the tank would regularly take one of those extra heavy hits because they were four levels lower. I think the boss was level 58, the tank was 54 and I was 52. It was exhilarating, and we pulled through without a single person biting the dust. Just remembering makes me wish for a similar experience in other games. However. It also took a long, long time. To this day I am surprised that a group of completely random players stuck through until the end. Those moments are oh so very rare. No matter the time period. Which is why I don't want these massive dungeons to be a mandatory part of any game. But to have the option to just continue after the current portion is done would ideal. But I don't think current MMO design allows for this sort of dungeon to exist again. It would have to be the central "dungeon" on release and you'd return to it every time. Which could make for interesting design on every level, truth be told. I just don't think it will ever happen.
Dude, I've been watching your content since early MOP and this is an incredibly well done and well written video. It's crazy to see how far you've come as a content creator. Kudos to you and everything you've been able to accomplish covering video games in general. It's good to see good people doing good things. Best to you, your family, and your entire team.
I think it's fascinating the way dungeon design evolves alongside it's audience. Like playing classic, I heard for years how much people liked the huge sprawling dungeons, yet the classic playerbase found ways to effectively speed run them so they behaved like how more modern blizz dungeon design does. It really shows dungeons went the way they did for a reason.
LOVED THIS, Mike. (and team) thanks big bunches. I identified almost all of it, having myself played most of it. Great content brother, much love
Love the legacy videos (and the outakes are great!) For the dungeons, you make the point a few times that many really enjoy the largescale exploration the first time, but no one wants to farm that. I think there needs to be a difference in farmable content and story content, and having multiple versions of the same dungeon accomplish that.
It's the age-old make it boring immediately because it'll become boring eventually spiel. Hard disagree. Having different kinds sounds like a good compromise, yeah.
My favorite dungeon experience was Scarlet Monastery. It’s not the best but the feeling I got as a kid of finding this random place on a hill after powerful mobs and then forming a party going in and keep seeing how the place opens up to courtyard thinking how much farther can I go was just magical. I feel zones that could be solo or with 2 people and curated could be super fun to see. Like in a jrpg where you stumble upon a cave and just go explore but has specific assets to that place.
Black Rook hold is my favorite, climbing a tower with a lot of enemies, interesting bosses and even some fun gimmick stuff like dodge the rocks, also it might be that i did that place like 500+ times every patch in legion for a titanforged relic and leggo chances lol, still love that place
I think there is a fairly good argument for all of the dungeons in Legion, at least before I took a break around Nighthold's release.
I love the legacy series, very happy another one finally showed up!
I would like both some longer dungeons and some shorter faster ones as long as the players get to choose which dungeons to do.
Agreed. Not all dungeons have to fullfill all functionalities - small short dungeons for M+ racing, massive epic dungeons for storytelling.
I miss dungeons being bigger than even some game continents. I remember Aion 1.0's dungeons which culminated in Draupnir Caverns were a multi-hour affair and something you can get lost in with massive vertical heights and a free-form way to traverse to the final boss in an epic arena. It really felt like a long D&D session.
There is some dungeons like this and D&D online. Explore a six-story castle, then sneak back in and explode again to see what's changed.
Duuudde aion vanilla and assault on baluria dungeons were crazy good!
WoW has mega dungeons one per expac that takes literal hours to do so you can have both
fuckin loved that part with the people voicing their fav dungeons. Everyone was SOOOOO varied in responses. Great video preach, so happy to support you here and twitch man. Your community rocks!
Dude, this video was awesome, just so fun to listen to, really hope this does well and more content like this comes out. Also deadmines, back in 2006 that was my first dungeon I went into, I had 0 clue what I was doing, we spent 2-3 hours in there and omg, as a nerd who had that time it was amazing.
Guild Wars 1 man. Every story mission was basically a dungeon. And then.... they added massive multi level dungeons years later. Such and incredible game.
There are two moments in classic wow that left me awestruck. One of them was seeing the boat for the first time in deadmines. The scenery shift from that tiny little cave into the giant room. It reminded me of bowser’s submarine in Mario 64. I remember every detail of that moment so vividly.
The second was seeing the waterfall in Maraudon for similar reasons. You’re going through a gross pestilent cave and it opens up to a vibrant lush area like the waterfall.
Another banger of a vid. Well done!
BRD has a special little place for me, but I think the ideal setup to me is having mega dungeons that are one continuous zone that you can also split up into 2 or 3 parts (DM, etc). That way you can target certain sections and not have to do the whole thing every time.
Excellent point. They are also "world buildy" on a more epic, satisfying scale in that format.
The only thing that could make me smile more than a new legacy video from Preach is when that unmistakable music comes in at 21:50...I swear whenever you heard that music play, you know you were about to watch something golden. Never stop Mike!
What's that song ?
My favourite is Castle Zvahl from FFXI. It's the atmosphere and the time you go in the Main Scenario originally was super freaking awesome and the fact it was super dangerous to enter in just made it really cool to get through at the end and going through the ending that it had which kinda made me swell up slightly.
Man that was great, I hope it gets all the attention it deserves!
I agree. It's insane how good this video actually is from a creative standpoint.
imo thats exactly what difficulty tiers like normal/heroic/mythic/mythic+ serve for and enough people don't seem to give it credit for, you can do dungeons as you level thru the zone as part of the story and do it on normal or heroic and be able to take your time and admire and explore, you can do that after levelling in mythic to get some good gear at the start of an expac and then you can have fun solving the puzzle of how to do these fast and efficient at end game with mythic+ .
Although for some reason people tend to mostly want to rush normals and heroics because they want to level fast and then skip mythic into mythic+ for the loot, normally one would expect people would be driven then to try forms of social engagement like meeting people in a dungeon and exploring or having a really good mythic+ pug and instead of forming guilds and communities around these interests they mostly walk around solo imagining themselves as ronin in the wilderness.
At heart, and i know this point is very redundant but as pointed seems to be often forgotten, wow is a social games and the players have to do their part of searching for where they want to belong in the game or even make their own little corner. Ofc it's blizzes job then to make sure people feel driven and that the time commitment of creating said communities would be worth it, which they were failing miserably but DF truly feels like a breath of fresh air after SL , and despite its flaws it's just getting better.
Great video, always love seeing a legacy video be dropped, amazing editing and 10/10 skits.
Hi Preach team,
Long ago when you were releasing the "legacy of X class in WoW" (i specifically remember the mage and wrath of Litch king legacy being released) I was struggling hard-core in life (messy break up) and spending 14+ hours In bed each day. For whatever reason I binge watched your legacy videos over and over while laying in bed. That content helped me during a challenging time in my life - even if just to provide an escape from the horrible funk i was in. Seeing another legacy be posted reminded me of the thankfulness I had for your content during that time.
Doing much better with a full time job and a wonderful lady in my life (am I tearing up slightly right now??). Just wanted to say thank you for helping someone through a tough time years ago.
You never know who you might be impacting!
I really like how you lay out the various design goals a dungeon needs to fulfill, and that is something that every developer has to not only solve, but also stick their guns to.
BRD makes great memories. But nobody's running BRD every day or even every week - that's the whole reason why it feels special. I struggle to recall many WoW dungeons without looking them up because I have done them so many times they really just blur out and fade. If you show me a list, I'll remember them, yeah - but otherwise it's just another day in the office.
I saw the title on my phones notifications and I LOST IT! I recently binged all the other legacies and have been wishing they'd come back. Big hype Preach and Team! ❤
Dude this video is awesome. Love the format, love the production value, love the cheeky acting! Great video 😊 thank you!
It's only at minute 21:46 that what you started saying made my heart melt.
Basically, I was a private server player that never went beyond WOTLK.
And around 2013 I found your channel and liked the way you strut your stuff. Legacy content that I felt was relevant to me and I wanted to see on youtube.
Then I saw your streams and saw your more unedited and rawer side. It's then that I felt a kinship watching both you and your friend.
Speaking exclusively from a para social perspective, where I have never met you or anyone you talk about in person, just observing, I felt that distance that formed years ago.
And I understand that life does what life does, and I am not here to point fingers, I am just giving an honest critique of your content with all the relevant info that went into formulating this opinion.
This stuff is great, the production value is the best it's ever been, you're keeping it nice and tight.
[from an alternate dimension, I saw the same video in your 2013 style, and the cave style antics and shenaniganry that would have made up the live portion of this video]
And that made me smile. I felt like a kid again.
Please make more of this kind of content and be relaxed in your life knowing that you are doing what keeps you happy
Darkness Falls in Dark Age of Camelot sticks out to me at spontaneous thought. It was available in different wings for different levels from like level 15-20 all the way to max level, with a raid component tacked on toward the deepest levels, without being instanced content. Also, only available to ENTER for one faction (of three, for those who are unfimilar with DAoC) at a time, bound by keeps taken in the Realm vs Realm PVP system. So people could of course have their sneaky stealther character logged in in there and grief the faction that had their portal open, or when the switch happened a some PvP groups could enter and wipe out the opposition faction players. Just so many of the MMO systems tacked on to one dungeon.
Agree, everyone here talked about wow or ff, but darkness falls to me is the greatest dungeon ive ever been in. It just had everything and for almost every level range.
@@candykit5382 In a way I guess it's almost disingenuous, just because it is so different. But I'd like to see a lot of more that was at play in DF be applied in dungeons in general, not as a new standard, but as an alternative dungeon among the rest - such as it was in DAoC.
I always go back to DAoC when thinking about dungeons, those non-instanced grindfests that were just so much fun. Nisse's Lair, Varulvhamn, Spindelhalla, and DF when it was available (and something to go out and fight for when it wasn't). Even the Labyrinth had its appeal even though the game was in rough shape at that point.
But yeah, DF. AJing Albs at Legion never got old.
Great video! I agree with wanting that sense of exploration and excited tension in dungeons. Fantastic acting and commitment as well xD
I thought I would never see another one of your legacy videos, how nice! Great job as always Preach!
This was amazing! Loved the gags, the music, and the in depth dive.
As someone who's played quite a few mmos over the years- I first off agree about deadmines... and I think part of it also ties in with the limits. Everyone is low level and still learning and it really is a great entrypoint. I think my favorite part of the older school design was that exploration and that tangible danger. I certainly miss it.
I'm a long time XIV player and recently have been tackling a variant dungeon blind with some friends, while drinking. It's been some of the most fun I've had in a while. I really hope they iterate on it in dawntrail- but your video also reminded me of the different paths in GW2 dungeons and I kind of want to convince some friends to go revisit/give it a try.
Finally. After 84 years of waiting. I love this series, and this needs to come back Preach! It's how I found your channel was through your Warrior Legacy video
I don't see why we can't have both LFD and "explorable dungeons". Make a handful of dungeons not selectable in the LFD. They are large, winding, easy to get lost in, and you must create your own group for them. But the loot is REWARDING and perhaps there is a seperate currency tied to them. I'm a fan of the Classic Dungeons and would like to see something more along the lines of those in Retail
This was a great video!! It would never work now, and it's not a 'good thing', but as an EQ boomer, I loved the feeling of a dungeon and thinking, "If I die here, I'm done and I'll never get my corpse back." It was a real sense of danger, even if it's not practical.
I think there is several social thing that need to be fixed before MMO can come back.
one is the fact that today few peaple can have several hours for themself. there is a reason why COD games have shrunk so much that each match is only 3-6 min long.
and that is because peaple can only play for 3-6 min at a time.
I love massive dungeons, as long as the time spent= rewards earned. I dont want to spend all day in a dungeon if im walking away with 1 item or a 1 level.
My favorite dungeon of all time was Black rock- the WHOLE THING. I remember the moment it became my favorite too. Took the group FIVE HOURS to do, but at the time me and one of the DPS didn't know how big the instance actually was (This was near the end of BC). We died a lot especially as the bosses and trash got higher level than us, but we had a blast. We chatted, strategized, even took a 30 minute break half way to recoup a bit. I think what made it memorable one, it was all new to me and this other DPS, and the others obviously enjoyed the challenge as we progressively got out matched by the higher level stuff deeper in. We died a lot, but we always got back up, laughed, and went at it harder.
Now a days as an adult I can't dedicate that much time anymore, but it still cemented itself as my favorite dungeon ever. I miss those days, but I also enjoy the quicker stuff especially since my free time has shrunk over the years. Growing up sucks.
I Really Really love the vanilla wow dungeons, imo its a big thing for me to get lost in a dungeon on the 1st run. Usually by doing it over and over you'll know the route by heart but the 1st run is huge for me and I love getting lost in dungeons the 1st time.
BRD is the best dungeon ever made in any mmo made till today and thats by FAR
Great video! Maybe they could have a Scenario-style mode you'd have to complete once per account to unlock a dungeon and this mode includes the story, RP and nice fixed rewards to boost your character's strength.
Then, once unlocked, it's available in a LFD tool in s shorter format.
Sick video ! Really nice pacing and delivery.
Great video. i do not agree in many points but i wil add my 2 cents below:
Regarding Guild Wars 2 dungeons and how some players find them intricate, even though they may not be as complex as they seem, In my view, dungeons offer a unique and engaging experience that sets them apart from other MMOs.
First off, it's essential to acknowledge that Guild Wars 2 dungeons are not without their flaws. ivbeen playing Wow for 7 yrs and GW2 since launch. They haven't received many of the recent core mechanics and quality-of-life improvements present in the game today. Additionally, the rewards for completing them may not always match the time and effort invested (actualy. they simply don't), making them less appealing to veteran players and even fro new players who seeks only profits. However, despite these shortcomings, Guild Wars 2 dungeons remain captivating for several reasons.
One of the standout features of these dungeons is the multiple paths they offer. This diversity ensures that each run is distinct, something we cannot say from WoW Dungeons (specially previous WotLK) keeping the content fresh and exciting. It encourages exploration, aligning with Guild Wars 2's core philosophy that values discovery and adventure. Unlike some other MMOs, like WoW, where dungeons can feel like tedious, time-gated slogs with unnecessary walking and no real storytelling connection, for me, Guild Wars 2 dungeons manage to strike a more balanced experience between gameplay and narrative. Again: narrative is more elaborate in GW2 so it's expected.
Speaking of storytelling, GW2 dungeons are rich in narrative elements. They play a crucial role in advancing the game's overarching story, making them appealing to players who enjoy immersive storytelling. This is in contrast to players solely focused on loot and gear, as some MMOs tend to cater to.
Again: the game HAS a philosophy. The way i see it, it's important to recognize this and adding complexity and unique content to dungeon formats, as seen in Guild Wars 2, aligns with THAT developer's philosophy and the game's core identity. It's not just about quick MOBA-style battles or flashy rewards; it's about weaving an engaging narrative into the gameplay experience. Dungeons in GW2 are OLD so again, we MUST aknowledge they def can be immproved yet when reviewing MMOs, it's vital to consider whether dungeons are an integral part of the game's identity or merely a segmented add-on.
IMHO, dungeons in the MMO genre should integrate storytelling seamlessly into the gameplay, creating a distinct experience compared to open-world PvE. Foir fast paced quick reward high dopamine content, GW2 created FRactals and after that, more chalenging, they created Strikes (end hard content being RAIDS ofc). a perfect-ish balance between dificulty and quickness with story elements in a small dose. Dungeons should feel contained and integral to the game's world rather than being isolated segments with loading screens, which can disrupt the immersion and overall MMO experience.
TL;DR:
In the end, Guild Wars 2 dungeons, and the game as a whole, might not be for those seeking quick loot and flashy, dopamine-inducing experiences. Guild Wars 2 shines with its unmatched combat system, diverse professions, and classes. For players who dismiss storytelling as 'trash' or 'filler,' they might miss out on the true essence of what makes GW2 special.
Great TBT video! Preacher!
Great stuff! Looking forward to the Legacy series on all the FF games!
Genuinely the best MMO content out there
19:05 LALA SPOTTED!!! Also Amaurot probably right behind heros gauntlet.
This video is tremendous bro, good job team
getting into arguments on classic whenever I call Deadmines, VC, it helps people to get their pixelated grapes in twist. "Its called DM, nobody ever called it VC~!!"
That was really enjoyable! Can't wait for the next one!
been meaning to watch this since it came out, was hype to see a Legacy video in my inbox :)
Love it preach team. This was a fun watch.
My sincere condolences to the desk and also congratulations for withstanding such a force of nature without even breaking a sweat.
I always loved gnomergan when I was younger, the big open area, the cool atmosphere, and the tippy tap of the metal floor. A very nostalgic dungeon for me that I still love to see in random dungeon que. A close second is halls of lightning from wrath.
Such a fun video! And I agree. Especially after playing classic again on Hardcore. Deadmines is such a masterpiece.
Jordan with the Amaurot representation 🥰
Also, on paper, variant and further dungeons hit a lot of those desirable points 😂
Looking fantastic Mike, keep it up!
Really good video! I think the thing about classic MMOs like EQ, Ultima, Asheron's Call that you touched on a tad was great, but the key design to those MMOs were at their core/heart...they were designed to literally be Massive Multi-Player Online games, and to not be as narrow as more modern MMOs are today.
The idea was to get as many people online together, and to "live out" in a seemingly open world where you could do anything you wanted, basically bring DnD paper RPGs to life. There was lore and quests, but used more like DnD campaigns that you can play out with friends, people being social, etc. Not each dungeon or raid being serialized to be apart of a overall story. Singular mini stories at most. The open world being random and difficult as the dungeons so the waiting room like design was to faciliate people have to band together old school RPG style because the journey was made to be difficult solo, as why else play a MMO if you can get somewhere on your own...etc.
Just really old pure game design. I do miss it, and I don't at the same time.
Like the video says, there's no real "one way" or "best way". In the end I think MMOs need to try and offer everything...play with different designs...make non-linear once or twice, linear the next, etc. Keep things moving, but that's just me. I think variety is the best spice of life, doesn't make each time pleasant, but it does make memories and things fresh
really loved this preach, like a culmination of project MMO
This. Is amaaaaaazing!! I had forgotten how much I adore the PG Legacy vids. Never has the history of gaming been so engaging. This is not 2nd-monitor-background-lullaby stuff to farm to for me. They make me want to grab some popcorn and settle in. Mini skits along the way are **mwah!** 👌🏻 Awesome that these are making a return. Suddenly hopeful again for a Legacy of the Shaman. (It's only been 117 years, I'm fine! Don't mind me over here in the corner "manifesting."👵😄 )
What makes a great dungeon is size.
I really enjoyed getting lost in classic dungeons, exploring them and discovering stuff while making new friends.
In retail instead of exploring dungeons you go from one arena to the other and you develop hate for the total strangers around you while everyone learn half a million boss mechanic.
So great to see Legacy back. Loved the video.
I have a love/hate relationship with Blackrock Depths. It's the first WoW dungeon I ever ran - aaand immediately died because it turned out you can't just walk into a dungeon and solo it. It's also the first dungeon I got lost in and someone from the group had to come back for me (super grateful I wasn't kicked lol). And it's the first dungeon I went back to solo-farm. Yes, I got lost and had to hearth out. Happy to report years later I can get just as lost running BRD as I did those first times and I hate it so much lmao. I also really like the thematics of it.
Maraudon can drown in a pit of lava though. A curse upon whoever designed that dungeon.
i keep thinking about the classic Temple of Atal'Hakkar dungeon (also known as Sunken Temple). But your right deadmines even after 18 years still brings back my love of exploring this game
I absolutely agree with Deadmines, it's easily my favourite and holds the moment I got hooked on WoW itself. I started playing as a Night Elf druid and it was my first dungeon. I got grouped with a mage who had the Emberstone Staff and I just loved how it looked and absolutely needed it. It took me 3 runs before I got it and kept it until the staff that drops in SM (can't remember the name of it)
The Dead Ends in FFXIV gets me every time... the first boss' words during the fight just breaks my heart
Deadmines, Shadowfang keep, and Blackrock Depths. I will never forget running these the first few times back in the early 2000s.
Note that the people that made Everquest played MUDs - in particular Sojourn. That's probably part of where they got the large, sprawling dungeons there - the dungeons were massive, and there were some raid fights in Sojourn that could take literally DAYS to complete.
The target demographic for MUDs were basically college students who had tons of time to burn.
I just started playing Alliance on a vanilla server for the first time ever and questing through Elwynn Forest and Westfall without mods has made me enjoying reading the text quest for locations and clues. The Defias brotherhood story line has been so incredibly fun that getting into Deadmines felt very important and intimidating. Yeah I've done Deadmines through wotlk and cata RDF, but it doesn't hold that same gravitas.
Great vid, interesting facts and ideas, but my god that desk was hanging on for dear life in that hilarious skit
Are you shittinng me. A Legacy video?! It's been so long! btw, second Legacy vid you start with BB music mate. Means quality. Edit: Ok, Ben Dog brings this video to a solid 11/10
Blackrock Depths is my most memorable dungeon, followed by Grim Batol. I think they capture the aspects I look for most in a dungeon. Grand spectacle for a smaller closeknit group, variety within the content yet cohesive storytelling, and difficulty and teamwork required to experience all it has to offer.
And with all that said, I wouldn't do them more than.... once or twice a month at best.
Favorite dungeon of all time?
Tam-Tara Deepcroft (Hard).
--Story leading into it is something most wouldn't pay attention to or even remember after all the big, bombastic stuff ('NPCs have lives outside your field of view' type storytelling).
--Optional notes which can be read at any time along the way or after, adding context/flavor to an already unsettling place.
--Atmosphere continuously keeps you on edge, especially when a demon-summoning cult didn't make the place feel so utterly _wrong._
--Enemy placement/variety is not only functional but tells an unspoken story on its own, even moreso when names of each are researched (Dantalion/Piscodemon/etc).
--Not too long and not too short, you get the full experience by just carving your way through the various rooms (all decorated with words written in blood by-the-by).
--The moment you re-encounter Edda and she looks back at you while smiling before letting loose the most MANIACAL AND INSANITY-FILLED GRIN I have ever seen. This look shook me the first time I saw it and had me thinking about it for months, to the point that her words combined with it had me questioning my _plot armor._
Seriously, if you play FFXIV and you never got around to doing it, go through Tam Tara Hard synced and look all about the place as you take in the altogether messed up ambience (as well as listen to someone absolutely shred the shamisen in the backing track, _'Dark Vows'._
Great video. I can at least contribute a lil nugget of wisdom to this one. During a convention in germany about table top games there was one lecture about dungeons, that also viewed dungeons in video games, but focused on the table top dungeons in the end. And there were a few quotes that stuck with me all the years since then and during my time as a game master.
"A dungeon can be anything, as long as it a closed off enviourment with opposing forces and any kind of reward waiting for them. The area can be in a closed room or a cave or even an open market, as long as the players (for the time being) can´t leave the area. For example guard block the way out. A reward can be anything from loot, to a story progession or just insight for the characters personal interest."
"When designing traps and encounters in a dungeon always consider -nothing- to be an option. If every chest has massive loot in them or even tiny amount this washes down how players see loot in the first place. When in every room of a manor is a monster encounter it strains the players and the gametime. To have nothing there keeps them on edge because they don´t know when there will be something, or not"
Thank you for reading
10:24 That Hot Fuzz Neighborhood Watch Alliance composite shot was top shelf.
Back in vanilla i used to make new characters constantly just so i could do the defias brotherhood quest chain and journey into deadmines for that characters first time! And every time it was just as exciting as the last
Great to see a classic Preach legacy video again.
Happy to see another Legacy video. Still want the WoW ones to be finished but still nice to see it back.
Great video, amazing work from Team PG
Pretty good summary!
*My wishes for WoWs "dungeon" future:* Basic dungeons are mega-dungeons and for LFG and M+ you just carve out certain areas to complete to finish the run. The Basic-Version stays intact as m+0 or some higher tuning (similar to Dawn of the Infinites in 10.1.5) so you can explore and gear up in a single run without the RNG group or timer breathing down your neck. Looking back for example the old 4 Auchindoun Dungeons from Outland could be one massive area connected via corner segments in the major structure of the remained ruins.
Yep, I wish it was easier to find story mode groups to do the dungeon in a slow pace and get all the story/exploration in, then separate groups for speedrunning smaller parts of them ad nauseum later on for loot/xp farming. The oldschool story exploration goes out the window in a random group zergrush slaughterfest.
That would be great, big dungeons are awesome
Guess what happens with DF Season 4, so happy I was right on this!
Legacy!!!!!!!!! It's been years my man. But I've been patiently waiting.😮
My favorite Everquest dungeon was Akheva. It was so spooky when I played it, and the little centi dudes had their own language that could be translated. More recently, I love Ktisis.
Was not expecting the cavalcade of my favorite MMO creators.
A good dungeon is a big sprawling thing with deep lore with the characters and terrain within that rewards you for making it through certain points. Multiple paths. Multiple options.
I definitely enjoyed this video but I can't believe you didn't talk about Blackrock Depths. I think it's such a stand out and special dungeon that deserves more attention and conversation.
Must've had my longest ever dungeon in there back in vanilla, went on for like... 8-9 hours? With like dinner breaks, people leaving and having to look for another player, respawning thrash when you went back to the portal go grab the new guy etc. That was an outlier, but anything even close to that wouldn't be acceptable today, haha.
@@albinjarnroth1065 I only experienced it for the first time in Classic. Honestly I want more game design like that. Bring it back I say!
I'm a big fan of the tabletop inspired approach to MMO game design
@@pancakejamboree8700 I guess if the MMO was designed from the ground up for it, it WOULD be acceptable (as Preach pointed out in the video, it sort of was back when they made everything pre-Dire Maul, and expectations of the player base was widely different at that time, at least among those of us who played MMOs before), but it's hard to sell something that would fit the first M of MMO with that today sadly.
Maybe there could be some sort of MMO Rogue Lite dungeon crawler with that sort of design today, I dunno. :)
@@albinjarnroth1065 My hope for the future is a new MMO with a lot of the old game design philosophies. It wouldn't be the most popular game. But it would satisfy that demographic of people like me who are wanting that particular MMO experience.
One can dream
Brd is a good dungeon but i think for alot of people its not really that memorable outside of that. Its just very standard looking with standard enemies, but its sheer size means theres different sections that you aim for.
Sure i remember doing the jump into the lava skip for emp runs. Is that what I consider super fun? Eh.
Deadmines was the first dungeon that popped into my head when I thought of a favorite. Such a good dungeon.
great vid! love the format
Even though I'm a sucker for quick and compact, deadmines really hits everywhere. It's the only classic dungeon I genuinely love running repeatedly, it has everything you want, to epic boss fights and encounters to some of the best loot available at that level. You just can't go wrong with the deadmines.
In the same way, I think Tasavesh really nails it to what dungeons should be, a fun and interesting dungeon with unique and fun encounters to a rich story that is really well told just by its environment all to top it off with an incredibly boss fight.
For me, the biggest joy of playing games is the sense of discovery. Exploring dangerous areas for rich rewards. Not knowing what's around the next corner. Seeing amazing things for the first time. Learning and mastering the systems and enemies.
MMO content is kind of the antithesis of that because it is (and MUST be) designed to be repeatable. Content that is amazing but one-and-done is just a waste to create for an MMO/live service, especially if it eventually becomes obsolete and skipped over. Its effort you could instead spend on content that supports your game well into the future and expands the variety of things players can do.
Big exploratory dungeons with loads of off paths and secrets and puzzles are awesome... the first time. Once you know everything, the magic is gone and you just want a tight gameplay experience that has good rewards and doesn't drag on too long.
So with that in mind I feel like the ideal content for MMOs is something that's a little different every time you go. Lots of randomization and roguelike elements. Random room layouts, random spawns, random chests, random bosses, random mechanics. While yes you will eventually see everything, I feel like it helps keep the experience feeling fresh and fun for much longer than a beautifully handcrafted linear experience which is only cool the first time and after that is just a chore on a checklist.
Maybe this is nostalgia talking, but as much as I love mythic plus, what I miss from dungeons in all three mmos I play today, is feeling that they are alive - like I felt back in classic WoW. Brd being my best example, it feels like a city that people live in. Ff14 dungeons feel like a movie youre watching to tell you the story, wow dungeons even the megadungeons feel like their purpose is to turn into mythic plus, gw2 fractals are kinda similar to mythic plus. It might also be the fact that mass pulling in dungeons is the standard now, rather than slow pulls with cc
Speedrunning Guild Wars 2 dungeons is an experience that I will treasure for the rest of my life. It makes me sad that almost nobody will ever have that experience again.
I soloed all dungeons story mode recently. It was quite fun.
Why won't they?
@jessedurney555 Aside from personal challenge, there is no reason to interface with the content.
City of Heroes had something called a Task Force that took forever to get through. If you think forty minutes to an hour is a long time, that's nothing compared to doing a Task Force. I remember my friend doing Everquest raids, and those things took forever as well.
Indeed, IIRC CoH task forces were a string of anything between 5 (newer content) and 15 (older content) instanced missions initially intended for a group to play over a couple of DAYS. And many of those missions would be extremely bog standard. And you couldn’t go do anything else without permanently quitting the team IIRC. They got quite good at making them shorter and much more engaging over time though, and could be knocked out in a couple of hours.
This was awesome Mike!
i binged all these videos a couple months ago and hoped you would make more!
Super entertaining vid Mike and team!