The new Grappler feat on a monk, especially level 10+ with the extra 20 feet of movement, and dashing, takes a stunned and grappled foe, runs up the side of a tall tower, drops the foe to the ground, then slow falls or teleports (if a shadow monk) to the ground to do it all over again, all the while unarmed striking the foe repeatedly 😂
Hey Miles. I discovered you a few weeks ago when I saw your Mothership video. Watched them all. You are really good and got me excited about playing Mothership.
The one thing I dislike is that grappling at higher tiers of play is incredibly unlikely to work. Monsters get such huge bonuses to their STR and DEX saves, which are common proficiencies, that grappling might as well not exist. I really like earlier level potential though. As someone who loved grappling in 2014, I can't wait to play a goliath monk at some point :)
I dislike that they took the skill out of initiating a grappler. I have a rogue under the old rules who took expertise in athletics specifically to be good at grappling people. Now, does t matter how skilled that rogue is, all that matters is his strength mod. He can almost never be grappled thanks to reliable talent, but the odds of him grappling anyone are slim to none.
@@LuckoftheKevin I'm not that familiar with all the 2024 rules, but how would reliable talent help prevent grapples? They're now a saving throw from your end as well. Getting out of one might be easier with reliable talent, because that's still a skill check, but preventing the initial grapple is a saving throw, which reliable talent doesn't affect. Unless reliable talent is now very different from the 2014 rules.
@@DM-Timothy At least keeping them grappled is the same as it was. Many monsters don't have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics so that'll make it more difficult to escape. And your party warlock could Hex their strength to give them disadvantage on the check.
If you're looking to "throw" someone (a la jujitsu) then grapple them, you want to go with Warrior of the Open Hand. When you make an unarmed strike (doing damage) you can choose to topple - DEX save or be prone (i.e. a throw). Then use your bonus action to strike and grapple (because Open Hand can do both). The target is prone and has 0 movement, so they can't get back up unless they end the grapple first. All this and you haven't even used a Discipline Point!
Slight correction, Open Hand only lets you attempt to topple someone prone when you use your flurry of blows. So you’d use your bonus action to flurry of blows and topple, then attack and grapple with your action
I have a hard time jumping on this train now that there are 2 points of failure for grapple checks and that there is no longer a way to stack up your grapple check for a build. Analogous to stunning strike in 2014.
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I'm following along correctly. I do get the no longer a way to stack your grapple check part, but 2 points of failure? Though you can get free uses of grapple by hitting someone through Tavern Brawler, attack rolls are not required to attempt grapples "normally", making it a straight "I spend attack from my action, you make a save".
@DM-Timothy I don't have the book, so I apologize if I made an incorrect assumption, but I thought hitting with an unarmed strike was a requirement to attempt a grapple. If that's the case, going by the 2014 assumptions about the ac of monsters in cr appropriate encounters, average hit chance is only about 65%. If we say they have about a 60% chance to fail their save, the chance for a successful grapple per attempt would only be 39%. That's probably only ~half the chance of success compared to an optimized 2014 grappling build, which probably had advantage on strength checks and expertise in athletics. Unless you're a monk, ideally with the grappler feat, you're just not gonna be reliable enough at grappling for it to be worth building around.
@@evansmith2832 ahh, an understandable misunderstanding for sure! The Unarmed Strike now allows you to pick between 3 options, doing damage, which requires an attack roll, or either shoving or grappling, which do not require an attack roll, but allow a saving throw.
@@evansmith2832 it is true that you cannot stack the odds in your favor as well as you used to be able to for grappling, but the condition is now more impactful, too, which I think evens it out, especially if you combine tavern brawler and try for a “free” grapple before expending attacks on it.
@@MrMuddyWheels +1 dpr at Lvl 1-3 sure, it’s not fantastic, but it will move hits required from X, to X-1 however peoples Hp especially monsters scales at 1-2die per lvl+Con. 1 damage becomes a rounding error
@@breyor1 It’s pretty good for forcing a ton of concentration saving throws on spell casters (although it isn’t affected by mage slayer unfortunately). It used to combo with crusher to allow for automatically knocking enemies prone by moving them straight up with crusher and then using some feature (like tiger totem) to allow yourself to make a 5ft standing high jump, pushing them up 10ft into the air and making them fall prone while maintaining your grapple, forcing them to use their action to break the grapple in order to stand up from prone. Of course, that doesn’t work now that crusher has been changed, but I’m sure there’s some way to use it out there.
I’d probably rule that the grappled creature has advantage on escape attempts if an additional effect is in place, like restraining their weapon arm or keeping them from speaking, since the grappler is dividing their attention between maintaining the grapple itself and achieving the additional effect.
Since this D&D doesn't get granularly tactical when it comes to combat, I agree. But IRL, as a longtime combat instructor, the tactics we teach do not divide attention but intentionally instead focus it -- i.e., the 'grapple itself' is the technique used to restrain the weapon arm, or restrict their voice, so there is no 'additonal effect.' Another 'effect' would require a different technique.
Greetings! Great breakdown and I appreciate the time and effort you're putting in to make this content. As an actual grappler/ground and pound fighter in the real world, I would love to see options to choke out an opponent, the ability to disable by breaking limbs, fireman's carry to pick up and carry, jap wizzars to control throw an opponent over your head , and slams to knock prone and stun. Unarmed combat in the real world is all about stunning the other guy and then pummeling the crap out of him, or in grappling's case, to tie them up so tight they can't move and cause them so much pain the submit. I feel like I have a new project to work on today.
You’re definitely not alone in desiring that kind of subsystem!! It would be popular! I feel it would best be served by a subclass that was focused upon it. The issue of course is keeping the power level in check and remembering the constraint of DnD that rules are abstractions that approximate but don’t accurately represent “real” fighting.
Regarding the bit where you said you can't throw someone. I have seen rules that say you can throw a grappled opponent. However they have some conditions you must meet. 1. Be Grappled 2. They must way at most half your drag/push/lift capacity Range The typical throwing range for living opponents is 10ft./30ft. You can however throw 5ft./10ft. further for every 1/4th of your Drag, Push, Lift capcity the opponent is lighter. Damage The damage is calculated as if the opponent is falling to the ground. That means 1d6 for every 10ft. You may add your STR modifier to the damage roll. Both the thrown and the hit opponent take the damage. Conditions The thrown opponent will be knocked prone upon landing even if the target is not hit. It can decide to use its reaction to make a Dex Saving Throw which equals to 10 + your proficiency bonus + your STR modifier to halve the damage it will take. The target you want to hit can take the Dex Saving Throw without using its reaction to also halve the damage. If the target fails the Dex Saving Throw it is also knocked prone. This just seems like the most fun way to make this work because I 100% should be able to throw someone as a grappler Also really like the idea of using someone as an imrovised weapon. My DM treated it like using a medium sized person was the same as a d12+STR and then started multiplying if they was bigger like an oversized weapon
You actually don’t need to homebrew a “doubling down to restrain” mechanic! The new rules for rope, chains, and manacles all explicitly allow grappled creatures to be restrained using another action and an ability check.
@@DM-TimothyIt's great for a monk/thief rogue. Getting you that automatic sneak attack. (I wish there was a {heavy} polearm sneak attack rogue subclass as well as a rogue subclass that had their own wildshape equivolent from which they can sneak attack with natural weapons or unarmed strikes. 😅😊)
@DM-Timothy It might be a stretch of the interpretation of the giant's stone throw ability. But if I'm not mistaken, RAW a giant can actually pick you up off the ground by grappling.
@@voidmystic00 This is TRDSIC not RAW. It says it's a rock that's thrown. I wouldn't allow it for other materials like a barrel made of wood, so I wouldn't allow it for creatures made of flesh.
This makes me so excited to play my goliath path of the giant barb dragon wrestler build. using the new brutal strikes abilities and new reworked grapple rules I'll be body slamming dragons and everything else and actually do good damage with good control while doing it.
Good vid/info. Seems like a grappler (who’s grappling someone) should have some restriction (eg on being attacked) beyond just movement, esp if their opponent is one size larger
If you take carrying capacity into account (something I failed to do in the video, my apologies!) the movement restriction can be quite harsh with larger opponents. Also, the hand used for grappling can be more restrictive than you might think depending upon equipment and build.
Good video! I enjoyed the new rules as written. In a previous video I made mention of the DM playing situations out logically. Grappling is one of those situations that make it hard to play out realistically in a fantasy setting. A lot of creatures are not bipedal or even humanoid. 🤔 And I think in this video you ended well (Not to say I don't enjoy the other videos, cos I do!). I enjoyed this video where it is talked about as homebrew, or reasonable suggestions and always encouraging disccusion with the DM. 🧐 I do have a question and maybe lucky for a reply. More to do with attacks in general, but could also include grappling. "Are there any rules in the 2024 ed, about 'player characters' being in-line of another players attack (i.e. being in the way)? It's not quite grappling, but it premise is still there if you have your back to the other PCs while grappling for example."
Thanks so much! Totally agree, grappling is one of the hardest game fantasies to match up to, because we envision all the cool moves that would break the challenge and balance of the game and are disappointed by their lack of inclusion. Regarding creatures in the way, the PHB outlines creatures as providing half cover, adjusting your chance to hit. As in the 2014 edition, it does NOT include a chance to hit that cover. Hitting Cover is an optional rule in the DMG in 2014, and will likely be again in 2024, but we will have to wait for that book to know for sure.
What you can do with grappling now has significantly improved, however I believe that the addition of a DC for the enemy to beat makes it significantly harder to pull off and at that point worth much less than a regular damaging attack. In addition to the downsides, advantage or expertise in acrobatics/athletics now no longer impact the target's ability to fail the grapple saving throw, which is stupid. It's stupid and unrewarding because a 20 str barbarian that invested their asi only in str would have a higher chance at placing an enemy into a grapple than say an 18 Dex monk that invested in tavern brawler and grappler feats.
This is an EXCELLENT video. Thank you so much. We are switching to the new rules and one of my players is taking an unarmed fighting Paladin. This video was a lifesaver to help me quickly understand the nuances of his build. Plus I am building a monk as his nemesis so you are making me even better at being evil. 😂
I was messing around with mock battles to test out grapple and it really needs a way to up your DC. I was trying out a Soulknife Rouge/Monk with the grappler feat and tavern brawler with the idea to grapple a target, use grappler feat to have advantage on all strikes and just soul knife the guy till done. However keeping and landing the grapple is difficult and it ends up being similar to just psychic knife action with vex to get advantage on the bonus action psychic knife without the 1 level of monk, with the added danger of being in melee. If they added some way to raise your dc with like equipment, or magic items, or something it might be a lot more worth it then.
One more thing to mention would be how the new Deflect Attacks makes the creature's choice of you being the only attack target without disadvantage a dilemma.
So the grappling feat allows you to grapple and do damage as part of “the attack action”. Does this include a bonus action attack such as the monk has? Common sense says yes but a bonus action is not part of the attack action.
By RAW I believe the answer is no. If you want to rationalize it to make sense, think of the monk’s bonus action attack as a quick snapped off kick or punch and their attack+grapple as leaping into full body contact.
Since grappling as an action wasn't mentioned in the new PHB, could you argue that you can use the old rulings to grapple someone using an athletics check? After all, if a subclass wasn't mentioned in the new PHB, you can still use it with the only changes being to fit the class progression. The grapple ACTION wasn't mentioned in the new PHB, only that you can now attempt to grapple someone using the unarmed strike ability, so you could argue that since it wasn't mentioned, it's still an option.
Your DM could definitely allow that, however it wouldn’t be in keeping with the standard convention, I don’t believe. Which doesn’t mean anyone can’t choose to do it, just that it’s more likely a house rule option.
I like your homebrew rule for using movement to move a grappled creature around the PC. How do you feel about dragging them at your side through spike growth rather than behind the PC? Any homebrew for that?
Especially with grapple being easier to avoid than it used to be, I just let it happen. As long as the player is spending the movement, it makes them feel good, and doesn't really break anything.
Thank you Timothy, for answering my questions and explaining everything so well! Your suggestion about how to handle repositioning is something that I will definitely use in my games! I do have two additional questions: Do you allow grappled creatures to be used as improvised melee weapons? And if so, how do you handle those? And secondly, when a grappled creature is dropped whilst being hung over a cliff or another hazard, do you give them a saving throw to try to hold on? And if so, how do you determine the ability score and DC? Thanks again!
My pleasure! Great additional questions… To the first. Typically no. That said, if a grappled creature was two size categories smaller I might be inclined to allow it if someone asked. I’d make them a d8 weapon and apply the damage to both targets because my players would love it, but not because there’s any backing in RAW. Regarding dropping off a cliff, I actually allow a dc 12 dex save if the cliff edge is within reach. I’m not sure where the number came from any more, but I believe it was published at one point. My players get the same save, so the low number rarely bothers them. Especially since they’re happy to find ways to get them outside of reach when they drop them off the cliff… lol I’m afraid neither answer is RAW (at least I don’t think so on the falling one) but they both work well enough at the table
What are the changes to climbing larger creatures? Before it was an optional ruling that if you wanted to climb a creature two size categories from you, youd have contested grappling checks and youd be able to stick on them like in shadow of the colossus
As of yet, we don’t have the dungeon masters guide, so all optional rules are still on hold. I’d say you’d be fine to use 2014 rules for now and I know I for one am hoping those rules stick around! :)
@@DM-Timothy Hell yeah, i want to make a kobold thief/champion or cavalier who grapples enemies, chains them up, maybe throws a net at someone to restrain them and then tie them up to force them to make two saving throws or use up two actions to try to get out. Who needs sneak attack when im just constantly grappling you with a high crit chance and then tying you down with nets and ropes lol
At least keeping them grappled is the same as it was. Many monsters don't have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics so that'll make it more difficult to escape. And your party warlock could Hex their strength to give them disadvantage on the check.
With Shadow warrior monk (2024), does the Shadow step feat work while grappling another creature? if you read how slow fall works, it doesn't actually say it slows the speed at which you fall, it just says it reduces the damage you would take from a fall, this is important for the next part. if so, can you grapple, then shadow step 60 ft vertically, into the air and use the slow fall monk feat, so that you take no damage, and the grappled creature takes damage from a 60ft fall, and is immediately prone (from fall damage) and still grappled? In my reading of the rules, this works. i would play this like a ridiculous WWE style wrestler, and re-flavor the shadow step and fall damage into a giant body slam.
I’ve always found it best to spend movement for both yourself and a grappled creature. So if I’m standing still and moving a grappled creature to the other side of me, I just spend 5 feet for each square, likewise if I’m moving around them, and it’s only if I’m moving both of us away do I have to spend movement on each of us
i rule you can't do Somatic Components while Suffering the Grappled Condition. and that if the Grappler has both hands free, they can Silence the Target with thier other hand. both to prevent screaming and prevent Verbal Components. because Casters already kind of have too many Luxuries in 5e.
I can understand the reasoning there. It’s a pretty potent change. Have you found your players using against monsters frequently, and does it impact tension in those encounters?
@@DM-Timothy most of the casters encountered are player characters or other similarly unique cases. and it usually forces me to give a caster bodyguards. which i kinda already wanted an excuse to do. and it gives a peasant militia a counter to PC casters. so favors GM more than PCs.
I have attempted to use grappling on my turn to pull away an ally from being grappled by an enemy & many DMs hate that. Most require a contested STR check (They wouldn't allow using the Athletics skill with this because they didn't think my PC should have advantage.) with the individual who has them grappled currently.
I can tell you I’d love it. I can see the desire to ask for some kind of contest, as it fits the narrative struggle, but I do believe by RAW you just succeed. Assuming of course that you’re properly spending the attack to initiate the grapple, that is. :)
@12:36 That does not sound right. In order to be RAW, it would have to be expressly said that it is not possible to do. Does it say you cannot do those things in the new PHB?
RAW can be either something expressly forbidden, or something not expressly made an option. DnD is not a “you can do it unless it says you can’t” system, else you could spend a 1st level spell slot as a reaction to vaporize your world of choice because it isn’t expressly forbidden. Your DM, of course, can allow any cool idea you have, but without rules backing that’s a call, not RAW.
@@DM-Timothy - Nope. Saying everything not in the rules is RAW forbidden is backwards from the Improvised Action rule. The DM is supposed to make that call. It is not RAW forbidden.
@@sleepinggiant4062 not saying it’s forbidden, I’m saying it doesn’t follow the rules as written. :) As far as I can find, the words “improvised action” have never been written together in print in 5e or DnD 2024. You can DEFINITELY improvise rules at your table, but the idea of RAW is what is actually written as allowable in the rules, it doesn’t relate to improvisations or Houserules. :)
@@sleepinggiant4062 thanks for the reference! :) We are apparently saying the same thing, but struggling with understanding one another’s words. I agree that you can improvise an action and your DM can decide whether or not said action is possible and how to accomplish it.
@@Gnostic88 Exactly. It's a saving throw to avoid being grappled, but an Athletics or Acrobatics check vs the Escape DC as an action to escape a grapple.
As a Fighting/ Martial Arts Nerd I look at RPGs and their grappling to see how nuanced the combat is. Martials vs Spellcaster divide has been too large imho. Grappling IRL is often the finisher to many fights, so in 5.24e I'm liking the details!
Most of the time, the question of “can I throw them” is referring to weaponizing them and/or throwing them quite a bit more than 5’. It’s a power fantasy thing :)
I would say yes, though as was pointed out, the term "Drag" and "carry" are used, which have mechanical weight in the Carrying Capacity table, and thus it might not be possible to move them more than 5ft if they together outweigh your carrying capacity.
Thanks for another informative video. For the most part I’m on board with the new grappling rules but I’m struggling to picture how a human could grapple an ogre with just one hand and then drag it around! 🤔
You actually just spotted something I failed to include. The grappled condition makes you movable but specifically says the creature can “drag” or “carry” you, which technically means they can only do so if their weight allowance is sufficient to do so when compared to your weight. For a small/medium creature that means you can typically drag Str X 30lbs minus whatever you’re already wearing. Only the buffest of wrestlers is dragging an ogre around.
Possibly. It's hard to say for sure? The wording of unarmed strikes includes: "Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow." and the statblocks included in the PHB include melee attacks, but they don't say "weapon" so they might not qualify? Common sense suggests it should be equally possible, (something I've houseruled in 5e for a long while) but the RAW isn't necessarily clear, I don't think...
@@DM-Timothy “In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike-a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.” Since it calls out “using your body” it feels inclusive.
In theory you could try to grapple and then make them prone and get advantage on your next attack rolls even if you don't have Grappler Feat, right? It's not necessarily the best, but it feels like a fun idea (you would use two attacks for that, but okay)
I would love some help understanding RAW related to grapple and the warrior of elements monk subclass (15') melee range. Here's what I'm trying to solve: Can I grapple at range with my attacks (assuming TB and Grappler feats)? Do I need to enter the typical 5' melee zone to keep them grappled? If not, can I drag them at the same 15' range I started the grapple with? If I grapple more than one person with the elements monk, how does the one person per appendage rule work? I assume I would be grappling them with some sort of elemental lash.
Unarmed Strike states: _this is an Unarmed Strike-a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you_ Here it clearly states that a target within 5 ft, but... *Elemental Attunement* _Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you_ Here's where I do not think it works. You only have the reach on the actual strike; so, you could grapple them, but I think you still need to pull them or move towards them for the grapple.
This is a tough one. I've seen a lot of arguments back and forth on it. My gut instinct is to say that you need to be within your natural reach to grapple. The "One grapple per hand" rule in Grappling would seem a fitting point to mention. The rules state you can use Unarmed Strikes at range, but do not say they bypass the Grappling requirement for one free hand that is mentioned as being potentially overturned in a statblock. Personally, I think it just needs to be the case for balance reasons. If a monster grappled someone at reach, I'd allow them to attack the limb, but if an elements monk pins you down with wind? Doesn't make a lot of sense, which makes the grapple less interactive. I'm afraid this is just my opinion, however, as the rules aren't terribly clear cut.
Hey guys, can i get some views on something ive been pondering. Starting out as a college of dance bard (Halfling) and im extremely tempted to multiclass into Monk as some of the grapple mechanics here seem to play in nicely to both. Get in close to isolate one problem enemy, then back off and cast magic when needing to support others in the group. Has anyone else explored this combo or is it too much doubling up of the same type of skills? Thanks!
I haven’t explored this combo. My first thought is that it could work as a single level dip in monk, but much more would be impractical due to MAD. Interested in others thoughts.
Rune Knight is up there, but there’s a fair number of options that are similarly stacked, from Goliath’s new growth ability to Enlarge spells to the Path of the Giant barbarian. The only time one becomes truly superior is when you can grow to huge size, and start moving medium opponents without movement penalty.
Look as a fan of both ttrpgs and Jiu-jitsu I am still waiting on there to be rule support for chokes and joint locks. Sure just punching someone who is grappled gets the job done but I don’t think rules for chokes would be all that hard to come up with. Treat it as a second grapple check which if it succeeds the opponent has a turn to break out of. If they can’t break out they fall unconscious. It might seem strong but chokes really are that strong. If a guy puts you in a RNC or a triangle and you can’t get out in about 8 secs you are unconscious end of story.
I actually have rules for those, but they're probably not going to be popular... Chokes and Joint Locks that lead to unconsciousness are called Unarmed Strikes. If enough of them are applied, damage results that leads to unconsciousness. All you have to do is imagine that as the reason the damage you are applying is being applied, and the end result is balanced to the rules and fits your fiction, too.
It would depend upon the group to some degree. By RAW, they can’t, but it doesn’t necessarily fit the fantasy narrative or the power fantasy of the player. Which comes down to DM to Player communication time. :)
@DM-Timothy Too diplomatic... :) You think they can't by RAW? I'm not sure... been trying to figure that out. I dislike it and really hope my players miss that rule... ;)
@@avsabari1263 by RAW, the grappled condition allows a grappler to “drag” or “carry” you, which are terms used in the Carrying Capacity entry in the glossary and thus defined rules. If they weigh outside those boundaries your speed “cannot” be greater than 5’. So if you’re looking for a ruling to tell folk no, that’s the RAW answer. :)
@@DM-Timothy I have several issues with using carrying capacity for moving grappled creatures. 1) By default, creatures don't have an assigned weight. This is the same as the 2014 rules in that regard, and in 2017 JC stated that it was designed with only size in mind, not weight. Hence why it costs extra movement to move a creature your size or larger, but you can't move a creature more than one size larger than you. 2) If you did use carrying capacity, no creature (regardless of their STR score), could ever move a creature one size category larger without their speed being reduced to 5 ft. A riding horse is typically 930-1500 lbs. A medium sized creature with 30 STR has a max dragging capacity of 900 lbs. As another example, a Storm Giant has a max dragging capacity of about 3500 lbs, but a gargantuan ancient dragon would likely weigh several tons. If no creature could move a larger creature, then why would the rules even permit it in the first place? Why would the Monks use DEX instead of STR for shoving and grappling in the new rules if they were hampered by their low STR score? Did the designers not do this, because Monks could overcome those limitations? As JC had previously stated, I think the designer's intent was to use size, not weight, for grappling. Hence why only the rules for carrying objects in chapter 1 make any reference whatsoever to the carrying capacity rules. And why the grappling rules make no reference to them at all.
@@DM-Timothy That would be my interpretation, and what makes sense to me. but I'm not sure that's the actual rule RAW. They say nothing about carrying capacity and only limit it by size. I prefer it cause the other way around feels too much like a cartoon to me (: Anyway, I'm enjoying your work, and made a tiny increment towards your 10,000. Hope that helps (:
There's no RAW option to strangle as far as I know, but that definitely doesn't mean your DM couldn't work with you on such a thing in the right situation.
@@xvader9445 Totally seems fair to me. The RAW doesn't offer any specific support for that which I am aware of, but, I'd definitely allow that kind of thing at MY tables. I'd just have to make up the rules for it is the thing.
An actual 2014 grappler build got nerfed hard in 2024 yes this might mean a sorceror has better odds grappling someone but my unarmed fighting style duergar rune knight fighter with a level dip into ranger for canny athletics was able to reliably grapple a terasqa at level 4 and now has a 16 dc i think at level 7 absolute garbage rules change
It is true that you can't stack your grappling build the same way you used to be able to, but was a level 7 reliably grappling the Tarrasque really something that felt "correct" in game balance? :D
@DM-Timothy i think it worked fine for game balance seeing that he couldnt hurt the tarrasque at all just hold it i think if a player puts everything he has to one specialization they should be allowed to excel at that thing let me put this into reality a character can max out his str and dex to 20 and specifically train as an unarmed fighter/grappler to 7th level and still fail to grapple a commoner with 10s across the board 20%of the time does that make sense to you?
@DM-Timothy like seriously without a belt of giant strength it would take 2 epic boon feat to get to a point where you are strong enough to grapple a commoner 100% of the time while a bard could kill a tarrasque in a single hit without breaking a sweat game balance is out the window
@@Barrett821 All discussion about the need for fail-chance in as many rolls as possible aside, now I just gotta know... How is a bard 1-shotting the Big T?
@@Barrett821 Actually yes. Aside from a game-design standpoint of the necessity of failure being a possibility in all dice rolls, it also makes perfect sense to me that people can just get lucky, especially in the heat of battle.
Hey Tim! Thanks for the insight! As a real life martial artist and MMA Grappler practitioner I HATE this. Being able to throw and hit a punch before being able to grapple, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being able to grapple someone, as proven by the real life sport and other sports like American football, Having a Contested Skill check makes MUCH more sense, (Dex Acrobatic to avoid, Str Athletic to withstand or escape). As a homebrew I have already used the opportunity attack addition that ONE DND has made. Going as Follows: “You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your melee reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach. Alternative to having the attack deal damage, can you choose to attempt a grapple or shove contest against the creature, provided it's no more than one size larger then you.”
I agree with you regarding throwing a punch and grappling, but unarmed strikes aren’t necessarily about punching now, just hurting a guy. If the attack roll was your football tackle, dealing damage, then your defender is now facing off against your skill at grappling in their attempt to break the tackle despite the impact (saving throw). Since the attacker sets the save with their skill (ability score and proficiency) I think that represents things well enough by and large. YMMV of course! :)
Hey I just started Judo and BJJ and I was looking forward to play a Grappler Monk Ninja in the upcoming Campaign! This video comes at the perfect time!
The problem with homebrewing stuff on top of the rules is if you the player can do it, so can the monsters. If you allow me to grapple someone and silence them so they cant cast spells, why cant the goblin do the same thing to our Wizard? I like rules, they are predictable and less arbitary.
I’m not a big fan of all this strength erasure. There are so many things that were originally strength based that they have essentially given to the dexterity stat. Can’t wait for them to give carrying capacity to dexterity so we can just be honest and delete the strength stat outright. It seems like that’s what they want to do.
I would prefer strength to matter more, too. It’s why I think using carrying capacity for whether or not you can move someone balances the monk grapple stuff out. You can trip them and spidermonkey all over them but your str 8 ain’t moving them nowhere!
I've not actually checked out his channel, but I'll take a look :) The shout-outs for these videos are channels TwinSteel and I were in agreement on, but I'm always happy to point to awesomeness wherever it is found! :D
@ my 15 lvl fighter does one thing well: shove while everyone else is casting high level spells, i got to control where enemies are. now im outclassed by a bonus action from bigbys hand. nah this is dumb. do npcs now have to roll a charisma save instead of a bard rolling for deception vs insight? the only thing these onednd changes will do is push people towards other game systems, especially since dndbeyond wont allow you to select the legacy ruleset anymore
I’m afraid I don’t know what you’re referring to. :) Could be my heritage reading its head in my pronunciation again, but I’m not sure when your comment is in reference to.
Google the word “again” and click on the tiny speaker to hear how that word is pronounced. Then, if you need a reminder, go back and listen to yourself in this video. The pretension is cloying.
The new Grappler feat on a monk, especially level 10+ with the extra 20 feet of movement, and dashing, takes a stunned and grappled foe, runs up the side of a tall tower, drops the foe to the ground, then slow falls or teleports (if a shadow monk) to the ground to do it all over again, all the while unarmed striking the foe repeatedly 😂
Yo thanks for the shoutout! And huge thanks to @twinsteel, absolute mvp. Love your videos so excited for this!
My pleasure. TwinSteel is indeed the MVP!
Hey Miles. I discovered you a few weeks ago when I saw your Mothership video. Watched them all. You are really good and got me excited about playing Mothership.
@@RickyGallagher93 Aaa! Friends! Thanks! I appreciate it a lot. I’m crazy hype about that game
The one thing I dislike is that grappling at higher tiers of play is incredibly unlikely to work. Monsters get such huge bonuses to their STR and DEX saves, which are common proficiencies, that grappling might as well not exist. I really like earlier level potential though. As someone who loved grappling in 2014, I can't wait to play a goliath monk at some point :)
I was disappointed to see that you could choose which save you were making. That definitely makes it harder to land in higher tiers, you're right.
I dislike that they took the skill out of initiating a grappler. I have a rogue under the old rules who took expertise in athletics specifically to be good at grappling people. Now, does t matter how skilled that rogue is, all that matters is his strength mod. He can almost never be grappled thanks to reliable talent, but the odds of him grappling anyone are slim to none.
@@LuckoftheKevin I'm not that familiar with all the 2024 rules, but how would reliable talent help prevent grapples? They're now a saving throw from your end as well. Getting out of one might be easier with reliable talent, because that's still a skill check, but preventing the initial grapple is a saving throw, which reliable talent doesn't affect. Unless reliable talent is now very different from the 2014 rules.
@@DM-Timothy At least keeping them grappled is the same as it was. Many monsters don't have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics so that'll make it more difficult to escape. And your party warlock could Hex their strength to give them disadvantage on the check.
If you're looking to "throw" someone (a la jujitsu) then grapple them, you want to go with Warrior of the Open Hand. When you make an unarmed strike (doing damage) you can choose to topple - DEX save or be prone (i.e. a throw). Then use your bonus action to strike and grapple (because Open Hand can do both). The target is prone and has 0 movement, so they can't get back up unless they end the grapple first. All this and you haven't even used a Discipline Point!
Literally everything this guy thinks will make it 'better' was what made it unusable in previous editions.
Slight correction, Open Hand only lets you attempt to topple someone prone when you use your flurry of blows. So you’d use your bonus action to flurry of blows and topple, then attack and grapple with your action
I have a hard time jumping on this train now that there are 2 points of failure for grapple checks and that there is no longer a way to stack up your grapple check for a build. Analogous to stunning strike in 2014.
Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I'm following along correctly. I do get the no longer a way to stack your grapple check part, but 2 points of failure? Though you can get free uses of grapple by hitting someone through Tavern Brawler, attack rolls are not required to attempt grapples "normally", making it a straight "I spend attack from my action, you make a save".
@DM-Timothy I don't have the book, so I apologize if I made an incorrect assumption, but I thought hitting with an unarmed strike was a requirement to attempt a grapple. If that's the case, going by the 2014 assumptions about the ac of monsters in cr appropriate encounters, average hit chance is only about 65%. If we say they have about a 60% chance to fail their save, the chance for a successful grapple per attempt would only be 39%. That's probably only ~half the chance of success compared to an optimized 2014 grappling build, which probably had advantage on strength checks and expertise in athletics. Unless you're a monk, ideally with the grappler feat, you're just not gonna be reliable enough at grappling for it to be worth building around.
@@evansmith2832 ahh, an understandable misunderstanding for sure! The Unarmed Strike now allows you to pick between 3 options, doing damage, which requires an attack roll, or either shoving or grappling, which do not require an attack roll, but allow a saving throw.
@@evansmith2832 it is true that you cannot stack the odds in your favor as well as you used to be able to for grappling, but the condition is now more impactful, too, which I think evens it out, especially if you combine tavern brawler and try for a “free” grapple before expending attacks on it.
That extra d4 damage on a creature you have grappled from unarmed fighting style is more significant than it sounds
“More significant than it sounds.” And “is in fact useful” aren’t equivalent.
@breyor1 I've seen it be helpful at least 1 damage every round without making an attack is good. Damage is damage.
@@MrMuddyWheels +1 dpr at Lvl 1-3 sure, it’s not fantastic, but it will move hits required from X, to X-1 however peoples Hp especially monsters scales at 1-2die per lvl+Con. 1 damage becomes a rounding error
Fair enough. I’d prefer something a bit more statistically relevant, but I get the every bit helps mentality for sure.
@@breyor1 It’s pretty good for forcing a ton of concentration saving throws on spell casters (although it isn’t affected by mage slayer unfortunately).
It used to combo with crusher to allow for automatically knocking enemies prone by moving them straight up with crusher and then using some feature (like tiger totem) to allow yourself to make a 5ft standing high jump, pushing them up 10ft into the air and making them fall prone while maintaining your grapple, forcing them to use their action to break the grapple in order to stand up from prone.
Of course, that doesn’t work now that crusher has been changed, but I’m sure there’s some way to use it out there.
Grappling seems worse to me. Without Athleticism affecting it we seem less likely to land and far less likely to maintain a grapple.
I’d probably rule that the grappled creature has advantage on escape attempts if an additional effect is in place, like restraining their weapon arm or keeping them from speaking, since the grappler is dividing their attention between maintaining the grapple itself and achieving the additional effect.
Since this D&D doesn't get granularly tactical when it comes to combat, I agree. But IRL, as a longtime combat instructor, the tactics we teach do not divide attention but intentionally instead focus it -- i.e., the 'grapple itself' is the technique used to restrain the weapon arm, or restrict their voice, so there is no 'additonal effect.' Another 'effect' would require a different technique.
Greetings! Great breakdown and I appreciate the time and effort you're putting in to make this content.
As an actual grappler/ground and pound fighter in the real world, I would love to see options to choke out an opponent, the ability to disable by breaking limbs, fireman's carry to pick up and carry, jap wizzars to control throw an opponent over your head , and slams to knock prone and stun. Unarmed combat in the real world is all about stunning the other guy and then pummeling the crap out of him, or in grappling's case, to tie them up so tight they can't move and cause them so much pain the submit.
I feel like I have a new project to work on today.
You’re definitely not alone in desiring that kind of subsystem!! It would be popular! I feel it would best be served by a subclass that was focused upon it. The issue of course is keeping the power level in check and remembering the constraint of DnD that rules are abstractions that approximate but don’t accurately represent “real” fighting.
Amazing breakdown! Thank you for going over the changes in Grapple :)
My pleasure! Glad it was helpful!!
Regarding the bit where you said you can't throw someone.
I have seen rules that say you can throw a grappled opponent. However they have some conditions you must meet.
1. Be Grappled
2. They must way at most half your drag/push/lift capacity
Range
The typical throwing range for living opponents is 10ft./30ft. You can however throw 5ft./10ft. further for every 1/4th of your Drag, Push, Lift capcity the opponent is lighter.
Damage
The damage is calculated as if the opponent is falling to the ground. That means 1d6 for every 10ft. You may add your STR modifier to the damage roll. Both the thrown and the hit opponent take the damage.
Conditions
The thrown opponent will be knocked prone upon landing even if the target is not hit. It can decide to use its reaction to make a Dex Saving Throw which equals to 10 + your proficiency bonus + your STR modifier to halve the damage it will take.
The target you want to hit can take the Dex Saving Throw without using its reaction to also halve the damage. If the target fails the Dex Saving Throw it is also knocked prone.
This just seems like the most fun way to make this work because I 100% should be able to throw someone as a grappler
Also really like the idea of using someone as an imrovised weapon. My DM treated it like using a medium sized person was the same as a d12+STR and then started multiplying if they was bigger like an oversized weapon
Those are some fun house rules! Thanks for sharing.
And Athletics became useless in combat...
Somewhat. Escaping a grapple is still an athletics check, but it’s far less impactful outside of movement checks.
Also having advantage from barbarian rage doesn't help at all now.
@@OrangeRising Helps you avoid being grappled, and helps you escape, but doesn't help you initiate or maintain, it's true.
@@OrangeRisingI’m unsure whether the Strength saving throw advantage would interplay but I think that’s correct.
You actually don’t need to homebrew a “doubling down to restrain” mechanic! The new rules for rope, chains, and manacles all explicitly allow grappled creatures to be restrained using another action and an ability check.
This is true! Love the equipment section. That said, you’d need to adjust if you wanted to allow it via grappling without an item.
@@DM-TimothyIt's great for a monk/thief rogue. Getting you that automatic sneak attack. (I wish there was a {heavy} polearm sneak attack rogue subclass as well as a rogue subclass that had their own wildshape equivolent from which they can sneak attack with natural weapons or unarmed strikes. 😅😊)
I just realized that now RAW Giants can pick you up and throw you at your allies dealings double damage to both players. 😂
How’s that? It sounds fun, just not sure I see the RAW for it.
@DM-Timothy It might be a stretch of the interpretation of the giant's stone throw ability. But if I'm not mistaken, RAW a giant can actually pick you up off the ground by grappling.
Man I've been doing this for years. May not be RAW but it's certainly ROC
@@voidmystic00 This is TRDSIC not RAW.
It says it's a rock that's thrown. I wouldn't allow it for other materials like a barrel made of wood, so I wouldn't allow it for creatures made of flesh.
@fairphone5469 Well, it's a good thing that these are guidelines and not rules, huh? 😆
This makes me so excited to play my goliath path of the giant barb dragon wrestler build. using the new brutal strikes abilities and new reworked grapple rules I'll be body slamming dragons and everything else and actually do good damage with good control while doing it.
Good vid/info. Seems like a grappler (who’s grappling someone) should have some restriction (eg on being attacked) beyond just movement, esp if their opponent is one size larger
If you take carrying capacity into account (something I failed to do in the video, my apologies!) the movement restriction can be quite harsh with larger opponents. Also, the hand used for grappling can be more restrictive than you might think depending upon equipment and build.
playing a 2024 Monk in an upcoming campaign and this video was very informative. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful! Happy to help!
Good video! I enjoyed the new rules as written. In a previous video I made mention of the DM playing situations out logically. Grappling is one of those situations that make it hard to play out realistically in a fantasy setting. A lot of creatures are not bipedal or even humanoid. 🤔
And I think in this video you ended well (Not to say I don't enjoy the other videos, cos I do!). I enjoyed this video where it is talked about as homebrew, or reasonable suggestions and always encouraging disccusion with the DM. 🧐
I do have a question and maybe lucky for a reply. More to do with attacks in general, but could also include grappling.
"Are there any rules in the 2024 ed, about 'player characters' being in-line of another players attack (i.e. being in the way)? It's not quite grappling, but it premise is still there if you have your back to the other PCs while grappling for example."
Thanks so much! Totally agree, grappling is one of the hardest game fantasies to match up to, because we envision all the cool moves that would break the challenge and balance of the game and are disappointed by their lack of inclusion.
Regarding creatures in the way, the PHB outlines creatures as providing half cover, adjusting your chance to hit. As in the 2014 edition, it does NOT include a chance to hit that cover. Hitting Cover is an optional rule in the DMG in 2014, and will likely be again in 2024, but we will have to wait for that book to know for sure.
What you can do with grappling now has significantly improved, however I believe that the addition of a DC for the enemy to beat makes it significantly harder to pull off and at that point worth much less than a regular damaging attack.
In addition to the downsides, advantage or expertise in acrobatics/athletics now no longer impact the target's ability to fail the grapple saving throw, which is stupid. It's stupid and unrewarding because a 20 str barbarian that invested their asi only in str would have a higher chance at placing an enemy into a grapple than say an 18 Dex monk that invested in tavern brawler and grappler feats.
That’s a solid argument.
yeah its basically harder to complete a grapple but you have alot more options to try and grapple and then things you can do once the grapple starts
This is an EXCELLENT video. Thank you so much. We are switching to the new rules and one of my players is taking an unarmed fighting Paladin. This video was a lifesaver to help me quickly understand the nuances of his build. Plus I am building a monk as his nemesis so you are making me even better at being evil. 😂
My absolute pleasure!! Glad it was timely for you. :)
I was messing around with mock battles to test out grapple and it really needs a way to up your DC. I was trying out a Soulknife Rouge/Monk with the grappler feat and tavern brawler with the idea to grapple a target, use grappler feat to have advantage on all strikes and just soul knife the guy till done. However keeping and landing the grapple is difficult and it ends up being similar to just psychic knife action with vex to get advantage on the bonus action psychic knife without the 1 level of monk, with the added danger of being in melee. If they added some way to raise your dc with like equipment, or magic items, or something it might be a lot more worth it then.
Thank you Tim. Timely insight into this new symmetry we have to play with.
Always my pleasure, thank YOU for your unflagging support. I appreciate you.
One more thing to mention would be how the new Deflect Attacks makes the creature's choice of you being the only attack target without disadvantage a dilemma.
For sure. Monks are TANKY now. Hitting the tank is never optimal. :)
So the grappling feat allows you to grapple and do damage as part of “the attack action”. Does this include a bonus action attack such as the monk has? Common sense says yes but a bonus action is not part of the attack action.
By RAW I believe the answer is no. If you want to rationalize it to make sense, think of the monk’s bonus action attack as a quick snapped off kick or punch and their attack+grapple as leaping into full body contact.
Since grappling as an action wasn't mentioned in the new PHB, could you argue that you can use the old rulings to grapple someone using an athletics check?
After all, if a subclass wasn't mentioned in the new PHB, you can still use it with the only changes being to fit the class progression. The grapple ACTION wasn't mentioned in the new PHB, only that you can now attempt to grapple someone using the unarmed strike ability, so you could argue that since it wasn't mentioned, it's still an option.
Your DM could definitely allow that, however it wouldn’t be in keeping with the standard convention, I don’t believe. Which doesn’t mean anyone can’t choose to do it, just that it’s more likely a house rule option.
I like your homebrew rule for using movement to move a grappled creature around the PC. How do you feel about dragging them at your side through spike growth rather than behind the PC? Any homebrew for that?
Especially with grapple being easier to avoid than it used to be, I just let it happen. As long as the player is spending the movement, it makes them feel good, and doesn't really break anything.
Thank you Timothy, for answering my questions and explaining everything so well! Your suggestion about how to handle repositioning is something that I will definitely use in my games!
I do have two additional questions:
Do you allow grappled creatures to be used as improvised melee weapons? And if so, how do you handle those?
And secondly, when a grappled creature is dropped whilst being hung over a cliff or another hazard, do you give them a saving throw to try to hold on? And if so, how do you determine the ability score and DC?
Thanks again!
My pleasure! Great additional questions…
To the first. Typically no. That said, if a grappled creature was two size categories smaller I might be inclined to allow it if someone asked. I’d make them a d8 weapon and apply the damage to both targets because my players would love it, but not because there’s any backing in RAW.
Regarding dropping off a cliff, I actually allow a dc 12 dex save if the cliff edge is within reach. I’m not sure where the number came from any more, but I believe it was published at one point. My players get the same save, so the low number rarely bothers them. Especially since they’re happy to find ways to get them outside of reach when they drop them off the cliff… lol
I’m afraid neither answer is RAW (at least I don’t think so on the falling one) but they both work well enough at the table
Thank you, those answers help me a lot! Very nice ways to handle these situations.
@@UnforgivenPretender my pleasure! Always happy to help where I can!
What are the changes to climbing larger creatures? Before it was an optional ruling that if you wanted to climb a creature two size categories from you, youd have contested grappling checks and youd be able to stick on them like in shadow of the colossus
As of yet, we don’t have the dungeon masters guide, so all optional rules are still on hold. I’d say you’d be fine to use 2014 rules for now and I know I for one am hoping those rules stick around! :)
@@DM-Timothy Hell yeah, i want to make a kobold thief/champion or cavalier who grapples enemies, chains them up, maybe throws a net at someone to restrain them and then tie them up to force them to make two saving throws or use up two actions to try to get out. Who needs sneak attack when im just constantly grappling you with a high crit chance and then tying you down with nets and ropes lol
@@DM-Timothy Also if they’re large or bigger id like to use my reliable talent/second wind tactical mind to defeat any opposing skill checks
At least keeping them grappled is the same as it was. Many monsters don't have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics so that'll make it more difficult to escape. And your party warlock could Hex their strength to give them disadvantage on the check.
What is the mechanical difference between a throw and a push/shove? I have used them interchangeably and we use throw’s narratively.
You didn't even get to the interactions that Rope, Chain and Shackles from the Equipment section have with Grappling.
With Shadow warrior monk (2024), does the Shadow step feat work while grappling another creature? if you read how slow fall works, it doesn't actually say it slows the speed at which you fall, it just says it reduces the damage you would take from a fall, this is important for the next part. if so, can you grapple, then shadow step 60 ft vertically, into the air and use the slow fall monk feat, so that you take no damage, and the grappled creature takes damage from a 60ft fall, and is immediately prone (from fall damage) and still grappled? In my reading of the rules, this works. i would play this like a ridiculous WWE style wrestler, and re-flavor the shadow step and fall damage into a giant body slam.
Is there any way a monk grapple as a bonus action, for instance, with flurry of blows or some other way?
I’ve always found it best to spend movement for both yourself and a grappled creature. So if I’m standing still and moving a grappled creature to the other side of me, I just spend 5 feet for each square, likewise if I’m moving around them, and it’s only if I’m moving both of us away do I have to spend movement on each of us
Seems like a fair ruling. :)
This plus being a bugbear, shake em around with the 10ft melee. Get cheesegrated
@@santiagoparera5531 spike growth is my favorite
Very thorough - great work - I & Miles Away Gaming sends our gratitude 🙏🏿 ❤
Thank you, and my pleasure entirely!!
i rule you can't do Somatic Components while Suffering the Grappled Condition. and that if the Grappler has both hands free, they can Silence the Target with thier other hand. both to prevent screaming and prevent Verbal Components. because Casters already kind of have too many Luxuries in 5e.
I can understand the reasoning there. It’s a pretty potent change. Have you found your players using against monsters frequently, and does it impact tension in those encounters?
@@DM-Timothy most of the casters encountered are player characters or other similarly unique cases. and it usually forces me to give a caster bodyguards. which i kinda already wanted an excuse to do. and it gives a peasant militia a counter to PC casters. so favors GM more than PCs.
@@AdorkableDaughterofNyx fair enough! Thank you for responding. :)
I have attempted to use grappling on my turn to pull away an ally from being grappled by an enemy & many DMs hate that. Most require a contested STR check (They wouldn't allow using the Athletics skill with this because they didn't think my PC should have advantage.) with the individual who has them grappled currently.
I can tell you I’d love it. I can see the desire to ask for some kind of contest, as it fits the narrative struggle, but I do believe by RAW you just succeed. Assuming of course that you’re properly spending the attack to initiate the grapple, that is. :)
@12:36 That does not sound right. In order to be RAW, it would have to be expressly said that it is not possible to do. Does it say you cannot do those things in the new PHB?
RAW can be either something expressly forbidden, or something not expressly made an option. DnD is not a “you can do it unless it says you can’t” system, else you could spend a 1st level spell slot as a reaction to vaporize your world of choice because it isn’t expressly forbidden. Your DM, of course, can allow any cool idea you have, but without rules backing that’s a call, not RAW.
@@DM-Timothy - Nope. Saying everything not in the rules is RAW forbidden is backwards from the Improvised Action rule. The DM is supposed to make that call. It is not RAW forbidden.
@@sleepinggiant4062 not saying it’s forbidden, I’m saying it doesn’t follow the rules as written. :) As far as I can find, the words “improvised action” have never been written together in print in 5e or DnD 2024. You can DEFINITELY improvise rules at your table, but the idea of RAW is what is actually written as allowable in the rules, it doesn’t relate to improvisations or Houserules. :)
@@DM-Timothy - Yes you did. You said no, you can't do it RAW, which is why I posted. It's on page 193 of the PHB. "Improvising an Action".
@@sleepinggiant4062 thanks for the reference! :) We are apparently saying the same thing, but struggling with understanding one another’s words. I agree that you can improvise an action and your DM can decide whether or not said action is possible and how to accomplish it.
Wait i dont get it. How is the athletics check related if its a DC to escape now?
Athletics is related because the DC to escape is an Athletics check. Athletics no longer determines your starting point, however.
@@DM-Timothy Oh... so its not a save. Its a check vs the grapplers strength based DC. Huh.
@@Gnostic88 Exactly. It's a saving throw to avoid being grappled, but an Athletics or Acrobatics check vs the Escape DC as an action to escape a grapple.
@@DM-Timothy so saving throw on the initial grapple and athletics/acrobatics on an escape?
@@Gnostic88 Yes, precisely.
As a Fighting/ Martial Arts Nerd I look at RPGs and their grappling to see how nuanced the combat is. Martials vs Spellcaster divide has been too large imho. Grappling IRL is often the finisher to many fights, so in 5.24e I'm liking the details!
Can you answer the question? Does Bear Claw attack qualified as Unarmed strike now? seems like Natural Weapon does not exist anymore
Unfortunately I cannot answer that, at this stage. I'm hopeful that the Monster Manual will clear it up, but for now it's table specific.
So, i am bith very tired and have not read the 24 rules, but regarding the "can i throw them?" Wouldn't that just come under the shove action?
Most of the time, the question of “can I throw them” is referring to weaponizing them and/or throwing them quite a bit more than 5’. It’s a power fantasy thing :)
If you have two creatures grappled does the Grappler feat still let you drag them without reduced movement?
I would say yes, though as was pointed out, the term "Drag" and "carry" are used, which have mechanical weight in the Carrying Capacity table, and thus it might not be possible to move them more than 5ft if they together outweigh your carrying capacity.
Thanks for another informative video. For the most part I’m on board with the new grappling rules but I’m struggling to picture how a human could grapple an ogre with just one hand and then drag it around! 🤔
You actually just spotted something I failed to include. The grappled condition makes you movable but specifically says the creature can “drag” or “carry” you, which technically means they can only do so if their weight allowance is sufficient to do so when compared to your weight. For a small/medium creature that means you can typically drag Str X 30lbs minus whatever you’re already wearing. Only the buffest of wrestlers is dragging an ogre around.
That wording sounds like Natural Weapons would also all qualify for all the side options of Unarmed Strikes! That’s also new!
Possibly. It's hard to say for sure? The wording of unarmed strikes includes: "Instead of using a weapon to make a melee attack, you can use a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow." and the statblocks included in the PHB include melee attacks, but they don't say "weapon" so they might not qualify? Common sense suggests it should be equally possible, (something I've houseruled in 5e for a long while) but the RAW isn't necessarily clear, I don't think...
@@DM-Timothy “In game terms, this is an Unarmed Strike-a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you.”
Since it calls out “using your body” it feels inclusive.
In theory you could try to grapple and then make them prone and get advantage on your next attack rolls even if you don't have Grappler Feat, right? It's not necessarily the best, but it feels like a fun idea (you would use two attacks for that, but okay)
I would love some help understanding RAW related to grapple and the warrior of elements monk subclass (15') melee range.
Here's what I'm trying to solve:
Can I grapple at range with my attacks (assuming TB and Grappler feats)?
Do I need to enter the typical 5' melee zone to keep them grappled?
If not, can I drag them at the same 15' range I started the grapple with?
If I grapple more than one person with the elements monk, how does the one person per appendage rule work? I assume I would be grappling them with some sort of elemental lash.
Unarmed Strike states:
_this is an Unarmed Strike-a melee attack that involves you using your body to damage, grapple, or shove a target within 5 feet of you_
Here it clearly states that a target within 5 ft, but...
*Elemental Attunement*
_Reach. When you make an Unarmed Strike, your reach is 10 feet greater than normal, as elemental energy extends from you_
Here's where I do not think it works. You only have the reach on the actual strike; so, you could grapple them, but I think you still need to pull them or move towards them for the grapple.
This is a tough one. I've seen a lot of arguments back and forth on it. My gut instinct is to say that you need to be within your natural reach to grapple. The "One grapple per hand" rule in Grappling would seem a fitting point to mention. The rules state you can use Unarmed Strikes at range, but do not say they bypass the Grappling requirement for one free hand that is mentioned as being potentially overturned in a statblock. Personally, I think it just needs to be the case for balance reasons. If a monster grappled someone at reach, I'd allow them to attack the limb, but if an elements monk pins you down with wind? Doesn't make a lot of sense, which makes the grapple less interactive. I'm afraid this is just my opinion, however, as the rules aren't terribly clear cut.
@@DM-Timothy thank you for the insight! I agree that some balanced interpretation of the rules is required here.
@@X0R-0 My pleasure, thank you for a good question! I love answering D&D questions, I learn something every time. :D
"Regular 5th Edition" is interesting terminology. I suppose we could call that R5E and then the new Revised 5th Edition could be R5E... wait a second!
Hehehe
Hey guys, can i get some views on something ive been pondering.
Starting out as a college of dance bard (Halfling) and im extremely tempted to multiclass into Monk as some of the grapple mechanics here seem to play in nicely to both. Get in close to isolate one problem enemy, then back off and cast magic when needing to support others in the group.
Has anyone else explored this combo or is it too much doubling up of the same type of skills?
Thanks!
I haven’t explored this combo. My first thought is that it could work as a single level dip in monk, but much more would be impractical due to MAD. Interested in others thoughts.
I mean, throwing someone is basically just using the shove option of unarmed strike.
Very true! But I often get asked for less realistic throws, lol. Everyone wants to use the goblin as a ranged weapon from 30’….
Good combination with
Odopi horror
Is the rune knight still the best grappler due to the size rule?
Rune Knight is up there, but there’s a fair number of options that are similarly stacked, from Goliath’s new growth ability to Enlarge spells to the Path of the Giant barbarian. The only time one becomes truly superior is when you can grow to huge size, and start moving medium opponents without movement penalty.
Look as a fan of both ttrpgs and Jiu-jitsu I am still waiting on there to be rule support for chokes and joint locks. Sure just punching someone who is grappled gets the job done but I don’t think rules for chokes would be all that hard to come up with. Treat it as a second grapple check which if it succeeds the opponent has a turn to break out of. If they can’t break out they fall unconscious. It might seem strong but chokes really are that strong. If a guy puts you in a RNC or a triangle and you can’t get out in about 8 secs you are unconscious end of story.
I actually have rules for those, but they're probably not going to be popular... Chokes and Joint Locks that lead to unconsciousness are called Unarmed Strikes. If enough of them are applied, damage results that leads to unconsciousness. All you have to do is imagine that as the reason the damage you are applying is being applied, and the end result is balanced to the rules and fits your fiction, too.
No. You’re amazing.
So how would your deal with an 8 str monk with grappler moving a 800 pound ogre 40 feet?
It would depend upon the group to some degree. By RAW, they can’t, but it doesn’t necessarily fit the fantasy narrative or the power fantasy of the player. Which comes down to DM to Player communication time. :)
@DM-Timothy
Too diplomatic... :)
You think they can't by RAW?
I'm not sure... been trying to figure that out.
I dislike it and really hope my players miss that rule... ;)
@@avsabari1263 by RAW, the grappled condition allows a grappler to “drag” or “carry” you, which are terms used in the Carrying Capacity entry in the glossary and thus defined rules. If they weigh outside those boundaries your speed “cannot” be greater than 5’. So if you’re looking for a ruling to tell folk no, that’s the RAW answer. :)
@@DM-Timothy I have several issues with using carrying capacity for moving grappled creatures.
1) By default, creatures don't have an assigned weight. This is the same as the 2014 rules in that regard, and in 2017 JC stated that it was designed with only size in mind, not weight. Hence why it costs extra movement to move a creature your size or larger, but you can't move a creature more than one size larger than you.
2) If you did use carrying capacity, no creature (regardless of their STR score), could ever move a creature one size category larger without their speed being reduced to 5 ft. A riding horse is typically 930-1500 lbs. A medium sized creature with 30 STR has a max dragging capacity of 900 lbs. As another example, a Storm Giant has a max dragging capacity of about 3500 lbs, but a gargantuan ancient dragon would likely weigh several tons.
If no creature could move a larger creature, then why would the rules even permit it in the first place?
Why would the Monks use DEX instead of STR for shoving and grappling in the new rules if they were hampered by their low STR score? Did the designers not do this, because Monks could overcome those limitations?
As JC had previously stated, I think the designer's intent was to use size, not weight, for grappling. Hence why only the rules for carrying objects in chapter 1 make any reference whatsoever to the carrying capacity rules. And why the grappling rules make no reference to them at all.
@@DM-Timothy That would be my interpretation, and what makes sense to me.
but I'm not sure that's the actual rule RAW. They say nothing about carrying capacity and only limit it by size.
I prefer it cause the other way around feels too much like a cartoon to me (:
Anyway, I'm enjoying your work, and made a tiny increment towards your 10,000.
Hope that helps (:
i wonder... Can you grapple and strangle a PC? like if you want to take out a guard silently
There's no RAW option to strangle as far as I know, but that definitely doesn't mean your DM couldn't work with you on such a thing in the right situation.
@DM-Timothy i was thinking that alot of times an Assassin would sneak up behind a guard and strangle with a wire or a scarf, real quick and silently
@@xvader9445 Totally seems fair to me. The RAW doesn't offer any specific support for that which I am aware of, but, I'd definitely allow that kind of thing at MY tables. I'd just have to make up the rules for it is the thing.
An actual 2014 grappler build got nerfed hard in 2024 yes this might mean a sorceror has better odds grappling someone but my unarmed fighting style duergar rune knight fighter with a level dip into ranger for canny athletics was able to reliably grapple a terasqa at level 4 and now has a 16 dc i think at level 7 absolute garbage rules change
It is true that you can't stack your grappling build the same way you used to be able to, but was a level 7 reliably grappling the Tarrasque really something that felt "correct" in game balance? :D
@DM-Timothy i think it worked fine for game balance seeing that he couldnt hurt the tarrasque at all just hold it i think if a player puts everything he has to one specialization they should be allowed to excel at that thing let me put this into reality a character can max out his str and dex to 20 and specifically train as an unarmed fighter/grappler to 7th level and still fail to grapple a commoner with 10s across the board 20%of the time does that make sense to you?
@DM-Timothy like seriously without a belt of giant strength it would take 2 epic boon feat to get to a point where you are strong enough to grapple a commoner 100% of the time while a bard could kill a tarrasque in a single hit without breaking a sweat game balance is out the window
@@Barrett821 All discussion about the need for fail-chance in as many rolls as possible aside, now I just gotta know... How is a bard 1-shotting the Big T?
@@Barrett821 Actually yes. Aside from a game-design standpoint of the necessity of failure being a possibility in all dice rolls, it also makes perfect sense to me that people can just get lucky, especially in the heat of battle.
Hey Tim! Thanks for the insight!
As a real life martial artist and MMA Grappler practitioner I HATE this. Being able to throw and hit a punch before being able to grapple, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with being able to grapple someone, as proven by the real life sport and other sports like American football, Having a Contested Skill check makes MUCH more sense, (Dex Acrobatic to avoid, Str Athletic to withstand or escape). As a homebrew I have already used the opportunity attack addition that ONE DND has made.
Going as Follows:
“You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your melee reach. To make the opportunity attack, you use your reaction to make one melee attack against the provoking creature. The attack occurs right before the creature leaves your reach. Alternative to having the attack deal damage, can you choose to attempt a grapple or shove contest against the creature, provided it's no more than one size larger then you.”
I agree with you regarding throwing a punch and grappling, but unarmed strikes aren’t necessarily about punching now, just hurting a guy. If the attack roll was your football tackle, dealing damage, then your defender is now facing off against your skill at grappling in their attempt to break the tackle despite the impact (saving throw). Since the attacker sets the save with their skill (ability score and proficiency) I think that represents things well enough by and large. YMMV of course! :)
Hey I just started Judo and BJJ and I was looking forward to play a Grappler Monk Ninja in the upcoming Campaign! This video comes at the perfect time!
Grappling monk really does sound awesome. It’s incredibly possible this edition and even potent!
The problem with homebrewing stuff on top of the rules is if you the player can do it, so can the monsters. If you allow me to grapple someone and silence them so they cant cast spells, why cant the goblin do the same thing to our Wizard? I like rules, they are predictable and less arbitary.
I am with you on that one. What’s good for the goose and all that.
I see hot thumbnail, I click video. I am a simple man
Did they nerf the bear by taking away its grapple?
I’m not a big fan of all this strength erasure. There are so many things that were originally strength based that they have essentially given to the dexterity stat. Can’t wait for them to give carrying capacity to dexterity so we can just be honest and delete the strength stat outright. It seems like that’s what they want to do.
I would prefer strength to matter more, too. It’s why I think using carrying capacity for whether or not you can move someone balances the monk grapple stuff out. You can trip them and spidermonkey all over them but your str 8 ain’t moving them nowhere!
->Buffed Monk
->Grappling improved
....D&D 5.5 is now the Baki TTRPG
Can u shoutout xp goblin?
I've not actually checked out his channel, but I'll take a look :) The shout-outs for these videos are channels TwinSteel and I were in agreement on, but I'm always happy to point to awesomeness wherever it is found! :D
🥳🫂👍🏿
Tim's Beard = Extra Gravitas! ;) Take grappling seriously people! It's now a good option that is pretty straightforward!
lol! Indeed, grappling is serious business, not for smooth skins. ;)
Awful changes, obliterates athletics and any shove based builds
Definitely a fair stance. Though I think it brings those to a baseline they probably shouldn't have left, personally, ymmv!
@ my 15 lvl fighter does one thing well: shove
while everyone else is casting high level spells, i got to control where enemies are. now im outclassed by a bonus action from bigbys hand.
nah this is dumb. do npcs now have to roll a charisma save instead of a bard rolling for deception vs insight?
the only thing these onednd changes will do is push people towards other game systems, especially since dndbeyond wont allow you to select the legacy ruleset anymore
A-gayne? What’s with the pretentious pronunciation?
I’m afraid I don’t know what you’re referring to. :) Could be my heritage reading its head in my pronunciation again, but I’m not sure when your comment is in reference to.
Google the word “again” and click on the tiny speaker to hear how that word is pronounced.
Then, if you need a reminder, go back and listen to yourself in this video.
The pretension is cloying.
@@HardyLeBel-c9r Yeah, sorry, it's actually just a pronunciation difference between Americans and Australians. I'm afraid the pretension isn't me. :)