Please check out my *Determination and Red SOUL* video! YT was mean to it. :( th-cam.com/video/FaRKk4DrjUo/w-d-xo.html Thank you SO MUCH for over 10k subs, and to everyone who has supported the *sewer fundraiser.* We're still dealing with issues (Attorney General couldn't help), so I'll include a link to that along w/ other cool stuff. Fundraiser for Sewer (now with Updates): gofund.me/6989ad02 | My Undertale webcomic, *Inverted Fate* : invertedfate.com/chapters | For my *Deltarune analyses* : th-cam.com/video/KueHgAZcV00/w-d-xo.html Also, let me know if there's any specific IF-related content you'd want to see here (e.g. OST uploads of songs I made, maybe specific behind the scenes stuff). I plan to do more overview type videos for the project so newcomers from my analytical content have a jumping off point. Analysis Content: th-cam.com/video/4VfHhBh1c8c/w-d-xo.html My Patreon: patreon.com/dorked My Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/invertedfate Antipode, my Kingdom Hearts AU: archiveofourown.org/series/18376
I get the feeling that the view difference between UT and DT is just simply because UT is falling out of relevance slightly. Slowly, but its coming along, sadly.
So Kris's way of clinging to a sense of control is by relinquishing control. Their way of keeping people safe is to choose companions who won't listen to them. Because they don't trust themself. _Interesting._
Makes sense. I do wonder how much autonomy Kris has despite us. We can see them control their delivery of our dialogue, and act to protect their friends without our input, so I wonder if they can control their attacks in combat. Seeing how Noelle is the only member that can kill, I wonder if Kris can control their blade alignment as not to deal lethal strikes.
Basically, Kris KNOWS of the player's control over their life and doesn't like it one bit. (Remember Chapter One's ending..?) But by playing the part of a "willing" puppet, Kris may be able to get strong enough to break free.
I mean the kid literally had to pull their soul out so often that they has a little bird cadge in their room and weather it's the player removing Kris to do what they want without their interference or Kris removing the player to be able to have control over their own actions they really needs help from the outside.
@@TheSkyGuy77 It's more ambiguous in the normal route how Kris feels about us. Other characters remark that they seem genuinely happy with what's going on. Well, most of it - they do *not* like the Spamton NEO fight in the basement
It seriously is, but I think it's so important. Susie is, without question, one person we know for a fact Kris cares for even with our puppeteering. I think they see a lot of themself in her, as they're both kinda delinquents with poor social skills (initially), and both of them started these journeys together.
The more it goes the more I like her, she the one character right now I just don't doubt is a good person for real, like I can believe i any "X is evil" theory but the Susie ones never make sense to me idk why. Maybe because she the most real, like she's kinda mean but really she's brutally honest and straight forward,, Also I think meeting Lancer helped her so much too, like when he's thanking her for teaching how to laugh, she's so flabbergasted at someone thinking she's cool and she's so protective of her loved ones, she's so bad at hiding it too ' i just love susie so much lol (i actually love every character in that game, their flaws and qualities are so real it's hard to legit hate a character, at worst they're annoying to me)
Definetly agree. Susie is someone Kris meet jsut yesterday (in game) but connected deeply and even risks his life to protect, without the player/soul interaction. And Susie cares about Kris feelings, the real Kris
Also, at the beggining of the city, there's a save point that says something like "neither mean girls or fluffy boys are with you, reluctantly, you're filled with the power of that cat sign" and if you come back after being reunited with susie and ralsei, it says "you are mostly filled with the power of fluffy boys and mean girls, the cat sign still comprises about one percent of it" and I love how it shows Kris really cares about them, it's just so sweet
Yesss, god. I wish I'd thought to include that here. I do plan to do a larger scale Kris analysis that covers their character as a whole at a later date, so I can definitely put a pin in that. There's still a lot to Kris outside these videos about their motives at the end of the chapter. So many fun quirks and details.
I view Kris making a fountain in the normal route as a act of desperation, out of fear of Susie not wanting to be friends without constant dark world dopamine.
@@getthedunkon9347, or/and to show the police what is going on. I mean, Susie and Undyne described Kris as a "snitch", I think that is really just their cry for help. Also before falling asleep Susie mentions how these dark fountains helped with creating new adventures, meeting new friends. Already two solid reasons to make a new fountain
I've always been interested in how Susie is unique in that she can actively choose to not listen to us, from refusing to do anything but fight for the first half of Chapter 1, to not listening to our- the soul's- choices during the scenes where the cameras focuses on her. She's like the opposite of Noelle, where in Snowgrave the soul seems to actively be able to control Noelle when the screen goes black, taking hold and controlling her actions, despite literally being focused on Susie during those two scenes, we can't even change one of her dialogue choices. She is completely out of our control, only listening to Kris because she wants to. There's something up with Susie, something that puts her just out of reach of our control, and considering how is a specially her who was teased by Clamgirl in Undertale, and how a huge theme in Snowgrave is about being able to control the other characters, I can't help but wonder if this unique aspect she has will be what eventually saves Kris in the normal route, and will cause her to be the final challenge we face in Snowgrave.
Yeah, I think Noelle and Susie are definitely interesting in their contrast. Granted, Noelle does become more strong-willed over the course of the normal route, but I think Susie is extremely pivotal to Deltarune BECAUSE she's so independent and strong-willed. I think Susie only listens to Kris because she's come to respect them. If we started making Kris do even more heinous things around her, I think she would definitely intervene, and her being the final boss of the Weird Routes would make a ton of sense!
That's because the soul doesn't have direct control over any character other than Kris. We can make Kris give suggestions to the other party members on our behalf, but ultimately Kris' friends still have full autonomy over their actions. The only exception I can think of is Noelle after we equip the thorn ring on her since its "trance" status makes her almost entirely subservient during the Berdly and Spamton NEO fights. Ralsei just follows whatever Kris/we suggest because he believes that's his purpose and doesn't know anything else, though after the boat ride dialogue, that's likely to change in future chapters.
Kris' motive is definitely a gambit for freedom imo. Everything we know about who they are without the player's influence indicates that this is someone who desperately wants to be free.
Fun fact I learned replaying Chapter 1 yesterday: if you do nothing when Susie suggests Kris and Ralsei fight her and Lancer (the choice between "Let's Fight" and "Let's Not"), for a single frame before the choice box is interrupted, "Let's Not" is highlighted! Which means even that early in Chapter 1, Kris doesn't think of her as an enemy! Maybe that's not new information, but I think it's interesting that Kris shows signs of respecting Susie even before their conversation in the elevator.
thats highlighted too in noelles post about susie harrassing kris. they were never afraid of her, even though she kept messing with them. if anything, they seemed _amused_ with her antics. maybe they see themselves in her? i dont know. its interesting to speculate, though. kris is a mysterious one lol.
Interesting video. It makes me wonder if future weird routes will be harder to pull off as the story progresses and if we'll need to actively start forcing scenarios that cause Kris to split off from everyone else to cause more in the future instead of just waiting for a point where we do split up from everybody. It would fit with the idea that we're breaking the game by fabricating these situations that would allow us to exert our control more often
I can definitely see things becoming progressively harder. I think Kris wants to prevent us from repeating what happened with Noelle because of how much Snowgrave players are able to break things, and not in a fun kinda way. It's very different from the more minor variations the violent neutral path takes (e.g. Berdly's arm, fewer recruits, etc). Those are still a bummer, but at least nobody dies.
@@Dorked I also wonder if we ever are able to execute weird routes in later chapters, it'll be easier if some of the previous chapters never went through weird routes, or future weird routes are only available if you've done weird routes in previous chapters.
Maybe we might even be locked out if we try to kill someone to early. With your party members warning enemies about you just like Kris could for Susie.
I kind of think Susie represents the idea of agency and independence, both in the story and personally, to Kris. Since Kris seems to be a person struggling with a sense of control and agency they are naturally drawn to her. Ironic for the person who literally delivers the line "your choices don't matter". Noelle on the other hand seems to represent a complete loss of control, some one lacking even the most basic abilities to stand up for themselves and make decisions, at least if you reenforce her learned helplessness. Ralsei is a little more unclear at this point- which is, you know, intentional. Perhaps he's someone who believes in fate, or even some one determined to *make sure fate happens*, like taking control and planning too far.
What about Dess Holdiday? In a line of Dialogue from Noelle, she said that Dess would beat the heck out of Kris if they saw that they were teasing her, meaning that if Dess was there, Noelle could protect herself. That might be a connection with Susie, being big and tough able to keep Kris in check, just like Dess with Noelle. Except Dess is implied to be dead. Meaning if we really want to take control of Kris, *we know what we have to do.*
It was always my idea that during the castle portion of a Snowgrave route, The whole game goes into a sort of "Limp Mode", Trying to get through the important parts of the story and getting to the end before something else goes horribly wrong. The only one who's detached from this is Spamton, who seems to have a sort of disconnect from everything else, Thanks to their interaction with... Whoever was on the phone. Think about it: The castle's been invaded by Spamton, Seemingly without Queen knowing or caring, Otherwise, She'd of done something. All the castle's traps and puzzles have been removed, Replaced with Pipis. Susie and Noelle's entire scene with the Ferris wheel is cut. Ralsei just tells Queen about the roaring. No Queen boss or mech. It's as if you went *SO* far off script, That the *Game ITSELF* is panicking, Rushing you through what's left and getting you to the end as fast as possible. It adds a new level of creepy to it all, As if the game thought it'd be impossible for you to screw things up this badly. The game's basically like "There's nothing to worry about, Their choices don't matter." But when you find a loophole around that caveat in Noelle. The game doesn't know what to do.
After seeing how high the stakes were risen in Chapter 2, I'm invested in seeing how the Alternate Route's theme of manipulation will persist in later Chapters, Kris being in a Dark World with their mother really opens up opportunities for genuine heartache Great analysis on Susie's character, her significance is an interesting topic (After all, there's a reason she's the character that Clam Girl talks about when foreshadowing DeltaRune)
Yeah, it just depends on how they go about it. I feel as though it'd have to be a different kind of manipulation with Toriel, rather than a murderous path. There's the idea of getting her to burn the house down by setting the dark world ablaze, there's the idea of getting Kris intentionally hurt to get Toriel to act out to defend them. Lots of potential for other approaches beyond a Snowgrave reskin.
Well, for future "snowgrave" routes, there is still five chapter to come and, if we don't count Noelle, Berdly, Susie aand Kris, five person in their class, so it may actually not be relevant tp only snowgrave route but also the normal route...
@@Dorked Her profile pic shows a heart locket, much like the one we could equip in UT. I feel that this implies she will either give it to us as an item, or we will end up taking it from her.
Considering the Snowgrave route is also called the Weird Route, imagine how different things would get if you went and made Noelle do weird things like casting Ice Shock onto the walls or using Snowgrave on a traffic cone
I think that future chapters will have varying levels of sequence breaks for their weird routes, rather than all being murder fests. I think a lot of people just assume it'll be a repeating formula due to Undertale's genocide run.
@@Dorked I 100% think that if we do get a Chapter 3 weird route, we're going to have to instead do something that puts Kris in danger in front of Toriel, in order to manipulate her into accidentally killing someone.
@@Dorked Chapter 7's Weird Route will only be accessible via a genuine glitch that Toby left in during development because it was funny, and then "fixed" in a day 1 patch that changes nothing else.
Regarding 5:30: I think the screen doesn't transition to Noelle in the Snowgrave route because we the player don't want Kris to let Ralsei know what happend. If we remember back to Chapter 1, when we followed Susie's breakout, when we returned to Kris and Ralsei, Ralsei was talking to Kris about something and immediately stopped as soon as the player returned. I think the player wants to prevent Ralsei finding out what happend and that's why they refuse to transition. Ralsei senses something is wrong with Kris and tries to make the player "leave" (transition) by asking things like "I wonder whats happening in there" and similar statements. Ralsei isnt a villian to Kris and susie, he is a threat/villain to the player! That is my theory.
Oooh, that's actually a good point. When we turn the camera to Susie, Kris is free to talk to Ralsei. By eliminating that possibility, Kris can't do that. Dang, I shoulda articulated that in the video. XD
@@Dorked to elaborate even more: Ralsei says "umm, I said dont you wonder... how noelle and susie are doing" as if Ralsei is irretated or confused by the player not leaving. Why else would Ralsei follow up with "I'll wait a minute first". A minute for what? Wondering about what theyre doing in there? No, the only logical answer is waiting for the player to leave.
@Rewalas Rewalas On top of that, when Susie bolts out of the door, Ralsei says "Wait! But we were supposed to..." as if he knew he was supposed to have a conversation with Kris.
Please consider that Kris and Ralsei are very clearly and provably both aware of the Player and conspiring against the Player in such a way that is designed for the player not to notice. There is a distinct possibility that the entire purpose of the adventures in the dark worlds is a distraction meant to keep the player on the path to their own banishment. If this were the case, Kris would have to engineer said path in its entirety before the player entered their world. It is possible that while Kris was successful in keeping the player trapped upon this path, they may not have accounted for the possibility that, within this path, such a strange route could be taken that the player would be able to finagle things to have such terrible consequences for Berdly and Noelle. That being said, while the harm that comes to Berdly and Noelle would be an undesirable outcome, Kris would be forced to continue upholding this conspiracy and proceeding to keep the player on track to their own banishment due to the fact that revealing the conspiracy to the player, or worse, giving up and allowing the player to escape the path, is a far more disastrous situation than the regrettable sacrifice of a single bluebird. This is why everything ends the same way, no matter what you do.
How would they know that there is gonna be more fountains and that the player is gonna control before any of it happened? Are you gonna claim that the knight is actually a 3rd conspirator, and the 2nd voice at the intro is a 4th?
So I’m imagining this imples that Ralsei is actively engaging in a brain battle against Gaster in secret. That’s badass. Since he’s the one who put the player in Deltarune. He definitely has an ulterior motive. It’s alluded that he made the prophecy which needs something banished, which I assume is us... Yet he’s also the reason why we’re here in the first place?
YES!! THIS!! LITERALLY THIS!! a lot of what i've been thinking after replaying it is like this. ARE ralsei and kris conspiring to distract the player because they're powerful and therefore dangerous?!?!? LIKE!! SOMEONE ELSE THOUGHT IT WOO
Again, I love the portrait of who's the bad guy in the Snowgrave Route. US. We are the bad guy. No one can say otherwise. We chose all the killing, we chose to scar Noelle and honestly it makes me feel sorry for Kris. Toby knows how to make people who have to do everything in the game feel horrible And that line. That. SINGLE. Line. *YOU whispered Noelles name* . It's just so... mystifying. And I adore it
I really love how in part it feels in response to how many people try to claim no responsibility for the Massacre route in Undertale. For as obvious as it felt there the hand the Player had in everything, Deltarune makes it even more explicit in Weird route.
holy fuck, how did you make kris's end-game actions make MORE sense in the snowgrave route?? and im only like 10% joking ??? LIKE. DUH. now that you've pointed it out, it actually makes A Lot Of Sense that kris would want susie, their mom, and a police officer around after the events of snowgrave. that makes me wonder all the more about their motivations in the normal route ! why do they seem to want undyne (or at the very least, a police officer) to be in the dark world with them if they're just having a fun adventure with their friend? -- which, as i recall, is the prevalent explanation for kris's actions in a non-snowgrave route. my brain wants to dive wildly into "did dess fall into a dark fountain? is kris trying to find her, after reconnecting with noelle?" but that's like, the best ive got for it. gosh this is just such a good point that i haven't seen anywhere else, thanks as always for giving me more notes to add to my deltarune theory google docs ^.^
I think Undyne is definitely gonna be important, since Kris can be pushed to warn her about dark worlds in both chapters and even seems to be concerned about more people falling in. There's a strong possibility that Kris has multiple reasons for what they're doing in both routes, and I do definitely like the Dess in the dark world/lost in the code angle, too. c: Happy to inspire speculation!
@@Dorked Kris now knows that too many fountains at once will cause the Roaring. They probably reason that Undyne and Toriel can help seek them out without being in danger, or at least search for the knight. And with Cyberworld just recently sealed, now is probably the safest time to create one to prove their existence.
maybe to arrest the KNIGHT . i mean the Knight is creating fountain and giving power to the darkners so he will probrably come to Kris's house to tell Mike (or the boss, we don't know if he will be the boss of chapter3) about the lightners so Mike kills them, and Kris wanted to arrest him so he can create fountains to go on advencures with Susie without being scared to make the roaring happen
I’ve always felt bad for Kris. They’ve been puppeted by the player and forced to interact with people they don’t inherently like, especially Susie in the beginning. They’ve been forced to act in ways they don’t want to act, and unlike Frisk, Kris has a unique personality that we just ignore. I also think that Kris had some sort of trauma with humans before the game’s events, which is why they close the book with humans so quickly in the library. And yet, form all of this, people think they’re the bad guy just like Chara, even though it’s the player’s fault. I really hope we get an encounter against Kris where we have to face our actions, that would really be the best ending for Kris.
Yeah, I think Kris has an interesting relationship to their own humanity and feel very much like an outcast due to being the one human in town among a society of monsters. Generally, I just think a lot of people like to boil characters down to black and white morality, but I think doing so severely misses the point of Toby's work and the nuance therein.
@@Dorked That point about the characters is definitely true, I think Undertale shows that Toby rarely makes a character bland without some reason for it. And as for the point on Kris feeling odd being in a fully monster town, maybe the real reason they’re so against the player is that they know WE are a human. Perhaps they endured some sort of abuse or stress from being controlled by humans in the past, and they’re finally standing up to another human when they-we-endanger their friends and family.
i have a theory on why Kris wants to open a dark fountain. i like your idea on susie undyne and toriel, i now also like to think that they where called for protection; but that doesen't fully explains why kris wants to open it in the first place. when you seal a dark fountain your LOVE increase, your HP increase, your ATK increase, you become stronger. in UNDERTALE after a genocide route Frisk/Chara begins to act withot the control of the player: they walk without our control, they kill asgore without our control, and at the end they destroy the world without our control ("Since when were you the one in control"), basically they become FREE. so maybe Kris wants to seal as many fountains as they can, so that they can get lot's of EXP, without killing anyone, and use it to rebel against the player...?
Ooh, that's a neat angle! I think it depends a lot on the meaning of LV, tho, since in dark worlds it might mean something besides level of violence/execution points. In the light world they are still LV 1, and even being passive and kind, the LV increases with each fountain, so we may see something along the lines of, idk, "Light Value" or something and toby toying w/ expectations. Hard to say at this stage!
@@Dorked I know this is late but a Rudin in Castle town mentions that the more fulfilled or happier you are in life, the higher your level is. This is somewhat proven by Ralsei who is level 2 as well despite not being present when the fountain is closed.
i imagine being constantly controlled against your will would make someone completely free and independent like susie seem very appealing. not to mention, ralsei’s direct acknowledgment and complete compliance with the player is probably also why kris don’t like him nearly as much as susie or noel.
It's really interesting how Kris is less comfortable with Ralsei (but doesn't outright dislike him). I think there's a lot to unpack and we may learn more later!
@@Dorked i mean i don't think i would get along with a younger copy of my brother that is away for college that was in disguise and knows i am possesed by an entity that we can't see. This is my opinion the idk...
@@rich_gamer0667 I don't think Ralsei is meant to be Asriel, anyway. I think it's more likely he's the red horned headband that Kris had when they were younger turned into a darkner- basically ta manifestation of Kris' desires to fit in with their family, but also his own individual. If he was meant to be Asriel, Toby would not shiptease with Kris because that's a huge can of worms.
5:25 the meta explanation is most likely both Toby not wanting to code and write 2 separate cutscenes with Susie and Noelle AND not give us any extra information on how traumatized she is.
now that you brought up susie it makes a lot of sense. Fluffy boy may know something has a hold on them and has noticed the effect Susie has on kris so tries to not leave them alone. He may be trying to encourage Kris to demonstrate their free will and break control by making them party leader, make choices, encourage love and peace and the hero of legend while he acts as a supportive figure to them. But Ralsei and everything he says is coming across as artificial to Kris because we are making these choices, not them. Even on the swan ride we make all those choices and not them. Sometimes making too important choices like who kris should bring to the festival. Even after the battle with spamtom were kris breaks down Ralsei can only give lip service, hugs. hes trying to get everyone to move on from what happened to not upset Kris but that is not what Kris needs. meanwhile Susie recognizes right away that Kris's stress is being ignored and stops the group to acknowledge that happened and is truly able to make them feel better through jokes and reassurance. She honestly looks offput by what Ralsei is trying to do during this scene. Ralsei is "nice'" but being "nice" isn’t the same as deeply caring or worrying about someone. It's nice to ask how someones day is, its caring to dig deeper and ask for details. Whether his care is real or not everything fluffy boy does feels fake which makes sense for someone who has been alone for a long time. He wouldn’t be able to pick up the subtle changes in people like Susie could. i can see why kris would not like him as much as Susie even if fluffyboy is harmless and means well. Good people can hurt the people they care about through ignorance. Susie is fostering rebellion in Kris and empowers them by proving over and over again that she can defy the player. I can see in the future Susie snapping on Ralsei for his fakness if he tries to brush aside what happens with the next secret boss. she'll probably cause more scenes were we suddenly cant make choices for kris anymore and our positions will be reversed and we'll come into conflict with kris and the fun gang.
You have to remember that before Kris and Susie entered the dark world for the first time, Ralsei was entirely alone and had no friends or anyone to confide in. I don’t think his way of making Kris feel better and trying to alleviate their stress is fake. That “Oh well, let’s keep moving and put it aside” is most likely what he has had to do all his life while waiting on the heroes from the legend. On the swan lake ride in Queen’s castle he pretty much confesses that he had no idea what being friends really meant until he got to know them more, so I think he will get better as the game goes on (this phenomenon exists in psychology too. People who are extremely isolated and don’t ever talk or socialize with others generally have worse people skills).
i think its important to note that what you communicate to other people and how you actually feel can be totally different things. ralsei may come off as a bit uncaring sometimes, but given the fact that hes been seemingly isolated from people for a very long time and has little to no sense of actual identity, i think it makes sense for him to default to just being typically nice. i struggle so much with what to say in conversations, i tend to default to stuff like "hows your day been" or "im sorry to hear that" to someone whos going through something. and it might sound a bit robotic but i dont say it because i dont care, i say it because i have absolutely no idea what else to say. so i just say what i think is expected in conversation. words just dont come easily for some people. and, believe it or not, a lot of social stuff is taught. we dont come out the womb knowing how to interact with people. i think that is something ralsei will learn more about as the game goes on.
I also find it interesting how spamton is affected by each routh, though a fake out in the normal route he does seem to want to improve himself just before you cut his last string and his hopes are crushed, in snowgrave you enable his current state and he is much more villain like wanting to rule over the cyberworld, idk I just thought this might be interesting since not many people think about how spamton is effected by your route, it's kinda like in normal you show him what he really wants but in snowgrave he goes further down his dark path
I can see a lot of potential. For instance, trying to get away from Susie in chapter 3 or taking advantage of Toriel's maternal instincts to break the story in interesting ways. I know anonymouse proposed Toriel burning the house down due to thinking it's all a dream.
I like the idea of Susie being completely uncontrollable by the player outside of battles just by character alone. No incredible power or hidden abilities required. She'd just not do what you'd say if you tried to pull a weird route. Susie knows better. She's her own person.
"We just want to skip the fluff." Ralsei, the fluffy prince, distracts the player with incidents that are meaningless to the player's (unclear) goals. I'm thinking fluffiness is coming together as a major theme.
The weird route in Deltarune is so fascinating to me, because I didn't expect it to exist in the first place. I think no one did after Chapter 1 where the main thing we heard was "your choices don't matter". But here we are, Chapter 2 allowed us to break that rule and we have a genocide-like route, except it's much worse in some aspects this time. I'm so glad you analysed the motives Kris has in Snowgrave. It didn't make sense to me why Kris would do the same and open a fountain in this route as well, but after this video it's more clear. Keep up the great work and as always stay determined!
... YOUR CHOICES DON'T MATTER, but other's do... maybe the will all die in the roaring so it doesn't matter anyway, well atleast Berdly is going to lose an arm and then die and Noelle is going to be traumatize.
@@rich_gamer0667 Well, it's another interesting concept. Since Roaring was brought up in chapter 2, we would think that it will eventually happen. Guess we'll see...
as someones whos watched deltarune from the sidelines since its release and only actually gotten into it recently, i really didnt think that would be the case. theyre so interesting, especially together, and they just get more interesting as time goes on.
I have a feeling that while Toriel won't take orders from Kris without question, like Noelle did, I do think that for Chapter 3's alt route, we can pretend to be/actually get severly hurt to force Toriel to burn anyone that dare try to kill their child. And we already know how Undyne does around heat so... the player making Kris do something so horrible, it gets Undyne to attack us, while right in front of Toriel will not end very well...
Something I keep wondering is if the weird route will effect the secret bosses living in our inventory. Will keeping them in Kris' pockets be important to the worst run because we need them to witness it all so we can lead them down a dark path? They were already on a dark path before Kris showed up & influenced them into taking a lighter one so you'd think that would have some kind of effect. Then again, maybe they just wanna see what Kris does & they don't care about the morality of it. Jevil's in it for the chaos & Spamton just wants to see Kris find their own path to freedom, no matter what that path is. I suspect there will be extremely dark runs even outside the weird run. Like aborting a weird run at the last moment in chapter 2, then breaking Berdly's arm so Noelle knows it wasn't a dream, & using the thorn ring to make the twisted sword so Kris can commit murder with the twisted sword without worrying about Noelle turning on them.
I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts so this might not make sense, but this makes me wonder how the weird route(s) will be handled in totality. Both because snowgrave and any further routes should have slowly growing effects and there's setup for a few different ways that the game could handle these effects. Like on one hand Susie could notice what's going on and help Kris end the player's influence in their life. At the same time, if there's more weird routes, I can see it leading to Kris potentially giving up on resistance.
This honestly makes me concerned about the next weird route, especially with how Kris feel. Because, if there is one thing about Toriel I learned from Undertale (and more subtly apply to Deltarune too, it's yet to be much seen) it's that she is flawed. Not in the same way her husband is, sure, but still quite flawed. She is not Susie, she is not Undyne, and true she is not Noelle but that's about it. While Noelle's learned helplessness is far more easier to manipulate, Toriel always struggle on a balance between standing her ground protectively and shielding the young ones's eyes, a behavior that she also apply to herself resulting in a balance between determination and denial, taking strong actions that change life massively (like leaving her kingdom or Asgore) to then do her best to forget and being as dismissive as can be. I do think this participates in making her the person who underestimate the most how bad Kris feels about Asriel's absence (or possibly the divorce too), even if it's not helped with Kris not opening up much. And for as much as Kris trust Toriel, I totally think a weird route with her can happen in which she is pushed toward making bad things or things she doesn't know have a bad consequence for the sake of someone's protection. And it will be especially hard if she wound Kris's emotional wellbeing in an attempt to protect him. Of course it might instead be anyone else but Susie, possibly Kris on his own, or maybe Undyne who is too eager and impulsive which can also result in bad things, but I do think the worst but plausible case scenario is a weird route focused on Toriel.
Kris seems pleasantly happy in the normal route, apart from Spamton. Noelle talks about old times, and Kris saying they're friends makes her happy too. Then of course, Susie and Ralsei also care for you, but...Ralsei is in an odd position. Wonder what's up with them.
Susie is such an interesting character with a lot of potential, being clear of what she wants to do but also being mysterious, like, which are her motivations? Why does she get 'shy' when she meets Toriel? Why does she get so exited about getting a room on the Dark world? And many other questions can be made about the character, imagine if at the end she was actually the true hero or actually got another very important role for the story- To be fully honest I don't think I will be the only one to get extremely disappointed if we don't get a chapter more focused on her
I love Susie and Kris’s friendship, I would love to see people talk more about their friendship that people drooling for Jevil and Spamton 😔 my favorite thing about Undertale was the relationships between the characters, and that doesn’t stop at Deltarune.
Honestly I just see it as: Susie ignores our commands, which means she can't really be affected properly to make weird route with her? Maybe she'll be against us on a weird route?
@@Dorked Her power could depend on what stuff we gave her for weapons and stuff unless that's too complicated to code? Sorry- haven't coded anything good in a year.
I was really excited when I saw you were making a video about this! It's something I've been wondering about myself as to how these two very different routes connect. Great stuff as always!
Thanks! It's an epiphany I had... last month, I think? Like, I was trying to figure out how to make sense of it all after watching Andrew Cunningham's video and then it just clicked. Finally, a reasonable explanation without the dreaded "third entity"!
I love how the "scary" part of the chapters is when you play as Kris, all alone, with no other npcs around. you're technically controlling the "bad guy" i guess, and it's very uncomfortable and spooky :)
Excellent video! I do believe that Kris opened the dark fountain in Chapter 2 for Susie. Right before opening the fountain, they look at Susie. They do check if she's asleep, but they seem to only check Susie. This could be that either Kris is fearful of Susie knowing that they opened the fountain, or they are just telling themselves they are doing this for Susie.
Susie is a Good Friend The kind of friend that would go : "if you Misgender my friend one more time i will eat your Kneecaps." As seen in the conversation between Snowdrake, Monster kid, Susie and Kris at the Bunker in Chapter 2
Hell yeah! Finally, someone gives Susie the repsect she deserves! I honestly love her free agency so much. How she can just.....*not* listen to the godlike entity controlling the world. It's soooo badass. I wish Kris was more like that, and I know they do too. I cheer every time she's on screen, and I cheer every time she defies us. I have a feeling, no, a hope, that she'll find out we're possesing Kris and then absolutly kick our ass. She'll lead the charge as everyone beats us up. You bet your ass I'll be smilling as wide as I can as she absolulty obliterates me an exessive amount because god damn am I bad at video games.
This is a pretty cool video! You have got a new sub. Although, I do wish to share something about the Snowgrave Route that has been nagging me that isn't exactly in relation to Kris or Susie, but in regards primarily to Noelle, something I feel is overlooked and could be me just looking into things too much, so I would really appreciate your opinion on it! As we know, throughout the Snowgrave Route our manipulation of Noelle forces her to grow in power until she finally snaps and traps Berdly in an icy diamond. When we meet up with Queen, Susie says that Noelle needs to wake up. And Queen replies with something like "She has already awakened too much." 'Awakened.' 'Too Much'. The usage of those words/phrase feels oddly important to me for some reason, and I feel like that is going to mean something more later on. The weird psuedo avatar state she turns into at her breaking point is also something I don't see many people discuss. I've heard some people speculate that Noelle may know what this powerful magic is due to some incident prior, and that her affinity for the cold may be tied to some trauma she has experienced, but I don't know for certain. As I've stated, I could be reading too much into things. But Snowgrave simply doesn't feel like a one off event. Especially with the now exclusion of Berdly, to the Thorn Ring granting Noelle stronger powers(or perhaps giving her better control over them?) and Spamton becoming powerful enough to usurp Queen. All of this is just the consequence from the inhumane treatment of Noelle. It's also probably worth noting that Noelle is the only other person besides presumably Ralsei who can sense player input, even when she's nowhere near Kris(or when Kris is knocked out, something that is noted when you're downed in the fight with the radio dudes is that Susie and Ralsei are forced to act on their own) but I might just be picking at straws there. To sum up my thoughts, I just have this hunch that Noelle is going to be integral in some way to how the plot unfolds, and it's going to be based around her nature of her powers.
That's a really good point. I think Noelle is definitely going to be crucial in all routes, and the idea of her "awakening," has some very fascinating implications. I look forward to seeing where it goes!
I do wish some people wouldn’t dodge their bad actions in Deltarune by saying Chara or Gaster or Kris being the bad guy, I think Kris is doing what they do for a reason that isn’t bad at all
It honestly feels like Deltarune is more about WHY we happened to be forced into controlling Kris. We didn't have a choice in that, for whatever reason. My pet theory on it is that after Azzy left for college/university, Kris (being quite sad) played with a ouija board (or some other ""occult"" magic) with Catti and actually summoned something that stole his actual SOUL away. Later on, WE got thrown into this story by downloading and running this game and ""connect"" to Deltarune's universe. Whomever we talk to during that "survey program" segment (its probably Gaster; could literally be anyone though), they forced us into Kris as a surrogate soul (for whatever plan this being has for Kris and us). And our "goal" is to guide Kris towards the completion of that strange being's endgame. Ralsei may know about this, as he keeps nudging Kris and Susie to go in a "pacifist" direction. And seemingly wants to know more about the player, rather than Kris. Sorry for rambling
THANK YOU I always see people interpret the snowgrave route as Kris "doing what he wants" when all signs point to the complete opposite. (Including the fact that you're still controlling him) A lot of the fandom seems to interpret Kris as this maniac serial killer entity
Kris and Susie’s relationship is never talked that often simply cause people just see the relationship as “friend/player turn a bully into a friend” and nothing more.
I'm going to go off what you said about Toriel being protective and say.. Maybe we the player can manipulate that? Like, we have to force ourselves to low health or maybe into a downed state and THEN she'd be vulnerable to manipulation. A reason I say downed, is thanks to the fact that Noelle can still hear our voice. I know how evil that sounds, but it's also an interesting concept. Not to mention how Kris themselves could react, considering Toriel is their mother.
Something I noticed is that both officers are theoretically vulnerable to Toriel’s magic. While Undyne is mortally weak to fire, Nabsterblook (a ghost) is immune to physical attacks. What if we have to face both. And we see after snowgrave that Kris is traumatized by what we did to their childhood friend and their rival, gauging by Susie’s reaction, so I really don’t think they will fell well doing the same to their mother and their father’s best friend/apprentice.
im so terrified of the idea of berdly being truly dead in chapter 3 if you do the snowgrave route. like berdlt being absent in class or people talking about a funeral
@@watching7721 I honestly think the "your choices don't matter" is ultimately directed more as Kris themselves, as they can't do anything to prevent this. All Toby promised was 1 ending. The Deltarune website itself says, "Q:How many endings are there? A:One. Q:Then doesn't that mean nothing I do matters? A:There's something more important than reaching the end." So it very well could be that the Snowgrave/Weird routes will affect the path to get to the ending, but the ending will always be the same. Or, the same events will play out, but slightly differently (See: Chapter One's endings. You could argue there is only one ending as, either way, the King is defeated and the fountain sealed. However, whether you use mercy or violence to enemies before King affects whether he is pacified or overthrown.) or with a different emotional feel.
@@Dorked Undyne, Toriel, Aplhys and Rudy all know that we went into the library at about the same time, and hours later only three came out. Also keep in mind that everyone is afraid of Susie and distrusting of Kris by default, and that Noelle is clearly disturbed by something she can’t (won’t) describe. I imagine this is the reason chapters 3-5 will be released together, to fully explore the consequences of our actions.
I like to believe the choice between point and eat moss is more so a choice for what Susie thinks Kris would choose, which is why she then says Kris wouldn’t know what to do. It’s funnier when you think about that specific choice like that.
you know, at the time when you said everything keeps going like normal, i kind of thought about goner kid, berdly stopped existing and no one remembers.
Something I’d love to hear you talk about is the theory that kris STRONGLY dislikes or even hates ralsei, and what ralsei may be doing off screen when our focus isn’t on him and ralsei and kris are alone
I have lots of ideas about Ralsei, tbh! I'd love to do an actual analysis of his character, too, since too many people are focused on if he's evil or not.
@@pineappleudh6561 It was available on my Patreon, but maybe they were just leaving a comment before they had finished? Hard to say. I am no mindreader!
you mentioned susie's influence earlier, i think in the normal route since susie says at the fountian in chapter 2 "but... is that really a bad thing...?" Since they've been showing up, everythings gotten alot more intresting, has'nt." which leads kris to believe susie wants these dark worlds, telling them they should make (more/one) (depends on if kris is the knight)
Susie is going to become an integral part of the later parts of the game and likely the “true hero” of the trio. I’m so proud of my rough around the edges purple dinosaur tomboy. 🥲
SUSIE IS SO GOOD. I love her a lot, especially seeing her growth in chapter 2. I think her being the "true hero" even has precedent with Clamgirl's dialogue in UT.
I agree on susie being the true hero of the group and not kris since because being the main character doesn't always mean you will fix everything at the end. Plus she's literally stands at the middle in the legend so that is either a hint or a coincidence.
@@Dorked Could Clamgirl's dialogue that sound like a warning have a sort of meta implication ? It's from one of the characters existing only with FUN value, that we possibly need to search for as players, and now Deltarune where the player's search for different things make it the villain and Susie possibly the main antagonist of said player ? Like because seeking Clamgirl set us up as one of those players who seek weird routes ? Could be over analyzing (probably is), just throwing that idea out there.
is it strange that know i want an Undying Susie fight? i mean imagine that she will be the final boss in weird routes, she would be super strong to beat with her magic
this is a really good uncomplicated analysis of kris's actions. makes me feel like maybe my theories have been getting a lil too crazy lol. ive been dwelling for awhile on the theory that dess holiday might be the reason kris has been opening dark worlds. dess doesnt have a grave so she's probably not dead, she and her sister along with the dreemurrs explored the woods near the gaster bunker as kids, kris has some sort of trauma about that bunker according to monster kid. there's unused dialog in the code of the game of someone asking for help and how its so dark and quiet but they think they can hear scratching? (possibly monster kid and snowy outside the bunker?) the ending song for chapter 1 talks about how there's someone "with us in the dark". ive even gone a little off the deep end with a theory that the unused [redacted] sprite that appeared in undertale might actually be dess holiday. the [redacted] sprite (which sort of looks like it has an antler) appears in a completely dark room that must be hacked into. its dialog is hidden not only by wingdings (which are in lowercase btw unlike the caps that gaster uses) but also in the sense that its literally been "redacted" matching with the unused text in deltarune lamenting that "no one can even hear them". the [redacted] room gives you access to the sound test room where, after gaster's theme plays, tells you "thanks for your feedback. be seeing you soon!" which draws to mind the fact that deltarune was initially titled "survey program" when it first dropped after a series of ominous tweets, written in the style of gaster of course. so yea all these crazy theories have been taking up the majority of my mental real-estate and i overlooked the fact that kris may just want to make sure the next dark world has people that arent easily influenced in it, which is almost certainly the correct answer to explain kris's immediate actions. i still think dess is going to play a major role at some point later on but its nice to remember that not everything is so convoluted lol
Gosh dang :O This was super duper interesting 👀 I'm very much vibing with this train of thought. I knew that Kris was most likely very against the actions of the player in the weird route, however I didn't realise many of the specifics that you pointed out there. Very very interesting indeed
Haha, admittedly I had to get this one out pretty fast since the red soul video underperformed. Since TH-cam is one of my main income sources, I gotta account for stuff like that.
Yeah, I understand. :( There's a lot of awful stuff going on in the world, so I'm happy to provide any relief I can with my content, even if it's not much in the grand scheme of things.
I actually think chapter 2's weird route is a bait and switch, and chapter 3's weird route will establish that we as the player will sometimes need to go off the rails to show Kris the consequence's of their actions. Much like how chapter 1 established sometimes violence is necessary. Remember Kris by opening the dark fountain at the end of chapter 2 is endangering everyone. Regardless of their intentions If we play along and give Kris what they want we will only encourage this reckless behavior. But by going off the rails and showing Kris how horribly it can go wrong we will discourage this behavior and prevent them from doing it in the future.
Why is it that instead of us (player controlling Kris’ body) scaring Susie the one who threatened to eat us we choose Noelle the sweetest character possible??? When Noelle literally did nothing to us
I've always felt like Susie is the ONLY character (so far, anyway) that is completely incorruptible, I mean, she's by no means a saint, but regardless of your choices when it's JUST Susie, she does her own thing, it might as well be a command to advance the dialogue rather than a choice.
It’s kinda interesting how while Susie does go through significant character growth in the regular route she even kinder and more Compassionate in the Weird Route (being the one who invited the queen to Castle Town and implied to be more open towards Noelle. I get the idea that Susie is going to become some sort of reflection/protagonist in the Weird routes?
its neat to note how ralsei highlights that you've gone off script during the thing with noelle at the hotel, he expects the camera to pan to noelle and susie, and then acts surprised when time JUMPS forward to skip that whole shebang, not to mention how he tries to brush the whole thing with spamton in the normal route off, and like, im not trying to imply ralsei is evil or anything, far from it, he just clearly knows more than he lets on, and im curious to know how he will develop across the story, because he's a very interesting character, its clear he cares about kris, but kris doesnt care about him
i think susie is our tutorial to teach us that although OUR actions don't matter, our partners can still be influenced to make decisions for us, leading to the revelation of weird routes and their likely future variants. my guess is "gaster's" "experiment" he talked about when he sent us to deltarune was to see if determination could break past our "Actions not mattering". and if every weird route is done, a secret ending will unlock. or not? maybe our actions WONT matter in the end, who knows?
Ya I feel similar about gaster being involved. I also hold a strong belief that the prophecy is fabricated by him inorder to banish us. I think the reason there will be one ending will be because we get banished regardless. It just all depends if we are banished after taking out the puppet master or if we are forced out and leave gaster in control of this world.
Another thing that I want to point out is that Kris can let their soul exit their body without going into a weakened state. BUT, that only happens in the dark world when you finally seal a fountain. Kris seems to know about this and may try to fight player.
Perhaps its the same reason only our (player) soul can seal these fountains. That they have a similar energy, or it might be that in those scenes, we leave willingly.
That's interesting. He can slash and destroy the soul, catching it off-guard as it tries to seal the fountain. Ralsei's Dark World has another unique property wherein it is the only one we can exit without sealing it. Which is done with that large beam of light that appears post-chapter 1 after we re-enter it . So they can try it there without the consequence of trapping any lighteners in a dark world forever.
Fun fact! In chapter 1 if you look in the mirror by your room it says “it’s only you” in chapter 2 it says “it’s the thing they call “you”” and tbh that freaked my out-
Dialogue from spamtons SnowGrave fight. You've been making [Hyperlink Blocked] haven't you? And now that you have your own supply you don't need me!! You think making [Frozen Chicken] with your [Side Chick] is gonna let you drink up that sweet sweet freedom sauce. There will be no more [Miracles], no more [Magic]. You lost it when you tried to see to far. My theory. Kris needed the SnowGrave route to become completely free of our control. Part of it anyway, specifically the ThornRing. The ThornRing and pure crystal together makes the twisted sword. Twisted sword lowers trance. Trance = Our control. We get the ThornRing from spamton but that's all we needed. There was no need to continue the route. We went "to far." Doing the SnowGrave route partially could result in kris's freedom in the future.
Maybe Kris taking their soul out, is a pure act of determination to not be controlled- they dont want the player to control them. That pure determination to not be controlled, creates a dark fountain since determination is what creates these dark fountains.
I have always thought Ralsei talked to whoever Jevil and Spamton did, but instead of being driven mad or attempting to use it for his benefit, he realizes his best chance at peace is to assist and befriend the player
Nice job with this one! I know I'm a little late this time, but you've really improved. The presentation's cleaner, you get to each point well (though you already did, just an observation), and all the points hold up! Still, there's always a bit more to examine here. As always, here are my two Dark Dollars: Firstly, it's worth considering whether viewing Susie was ever real. We haven't been given any indication Kris and Ralsei actually know what happens when this is said, in fact there's some evidence for the opposite. Chances are Kris simply didn't agree because of their stress/emotions. There's something potentially huge I often see overlooked that I would've used in my own theory given time: When fighting Spamton in this route, it is impossible to miss. This contrasts greatly from the standard route, where Kris cuts the last string and reacts poorly when Spamton falls. Could they also hold anger for the part he played with Noelle? As for the Determination video... please don't get too hung up on it. For starters, remember it had quite a few flaws. I don't wish to recreate that conversation under this video, but sometimes this occurrence isn't unfair. I've only had one video break 100, even with other Deltarune videos. ...What I'm trying to say is that this sort of thing happens, and you've already gotten luckier than many. Posting about it here may make sense for now, but don't get upset over it.
I think it's impossible to miss because Spamton has negative DEF as a way to balanec the fight, considering you fight him with Kris only instead of fighting with the entire party. (It's a quirk of Deltarune as a whole: if you try to attack an enemy with negative DEF, either due to them having negative DEF or due to you debuffing their DEF enough so that it goes into negatives) even when missing, you deal damage.
I assumed that Kris opened a fountain because the Dark Worlds are a form of escapism for them, but I never thought how about the people they brought with them would affect things, especially Toriel.
I have found out that the more you use reset the better you get at using it, which is why flowey can save mid fight, and basing off my other theory, is why we have 3 save points and not just one.
Yeah, Kris using they/them is really important to me. It's exasperating to see so many people call them a guy, but it takes way too much energy to argue with every comment, so I just try to lead by example in my videos.
I think there are a couple holes that need to be filled in here. Namely the times Suzie is out of your party in chapter 1 and in when she goes off in the queen's mansion. In both situations, the brash one that can defy you is out of the party, leaving Kris (and thus, US) with the meek eager to please Ralsei. By the logic presented here, there should be a way to at least try to derail the plot and corrupt Ralsei, but there isn't. So I think there should be an explanation as to why we can't do it to Ralsei when we are alone with him.
I think while Ralsei is similar to Noelle in that he's eager to please, the thing that separates him from her is his sense of duty. He's out to seal the fountains, recruit more darkners for Castle Town, probably take down the Roaring Knight, so on and so forth. He's the prince of all darkners, one of the three chosen heroes poised to banish the Angel's Heaven. Noelle isn't even certain the Dark World is *real.*
What could Ralsei even do? His spells are all passive. He's very weak. There's nothing he can do that's particularly useful, whereas Noelle has the ability to freeze enemies in place as well as being very malleable.
@@Dorked What about when you give him the Puppet Scarf? I wonder if there will be some sort of Weird Route based around corrupting Ralsei using the Puppet Scarf
@@chippotato5647 Oh it is certainly not hard to think of reasons why Ralsei wouldn't get corrupted... I just think that there should have been a small bit in the video that gives a reason or two for why you can't when Suzie isn't around.
Perhaps Susie will be a boss in later chapters, where we are FORCED to let susie kill the enemies since there are no other "companions" around. and well... we did see what happend when her bouncy pumpkin friend "betrayed" her in chapter 1.
I also think it’s important to note that Noelle says something right in front of Kris that likely piqued their interest: in the Dark World, anything can be healed with a little spell. I think the reason Kris opens the Dark Fountain after Snowgrave is because they think if they re-enter the Dark World, they might be able to find and help Berdly, without anyone there the player would be able to manipulate into making things worse. Toriel would never let any child be hurt, and Susie doesn’t like Berdly, but clearly doesn’t want him to die.
I think frisk and kris have something in common that is very important to note, during the genocide route, Frisk/Chara does things without the player’s input. They deliver the final blow on sans, papyrus, and asgore without your input and also slashes flowey multiple times even thought you only attacked once. And of course, chara destroys the world no matter what you say. This is used as a punishment for the player thinking they were above consequences. Frisk is a blank slate, with no background or motives, leaving them completely vulnerable to our whims, but chara has a backround and a story, and therefore has agency over their own story. I think this is what makes Kris able to defy the player. In the dark world, without any lightners, kris is once again a blank slate, no backround and no character leaving them open to the player’s suggestion. But in the real world, Kris has control. Their soul is not what gives them their personality, but instead a physical embodiment of your control over them. And this is where the differences in the two stories come in. I’m undertale, you control the world through frisk, your actions shape the world that you play in. But in deltarune, you control yourself. Because the same thing happens no matter what you do, your actions tell you more about your own place in the world then Kris’s. You can either be a guiding force, helping a lonely troubled child make friends and work through their issues, or you can be a controlling villain, fighting with the “good” kris just trying to live happily
Personal theory: Kris isn't the Knight, but after finding out from Queen how to open dark worlds he decides to open his own. He slashes Toriel's tyres so Susie can stay the night, and opens a dark world ready for a new adventure in the morning. Why? Because he's lonely. He wants friends, and Susie is the closest thing he has now
@@julietutsey3803 its up to interpretation. some people think she's a girl, some people think he's a boy, some people think they're neither. it's all what you want it to be :)
@@SantimsAnimations respectfully, its not that deep. i like seeing Kris as a dude, so im going to continue to do so. It’s not like he’s going to care or something!
If I remember correctly, queen still comes after the snowgrave route she's just very sad because none of her subjects are there it's more of an "I don't wanna be alone with dead people so i'll go" thing
I feel like if Kris did open a dark fountain on their own, the player is still gonna find a way to mess up their plans. If Kris does manage to get Toriel and Undyne the dark world, (which probably will happen, given the call about the slashed tires) Player will try and make Toriel kill Undyne. Because like you said, if Kris got arrested, the Player can't do anything. Naturally we would want to remove that option, and because of Toriel's motherly love we would use her to rid of it.
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I get the feeling that the view difference between UT and DT is just simply because UT is falling out of relevance slightly. Slowly, but its coming along, sadly.
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So Kris's way of clinging to a sense of control is by relinquishing control. Their way of keeping people safe is to choose companions who won't listen to them. Because they don't trust themself.
_Interesting._
Makes sense.
I do wonder how much autonomy Kris has despite us. We can see them control their delivery of our dialogue, and act to protect their friends without our input, so I wonder if they can control their attacks in combat. Seeing how Noelle is the only member that can kill, I wonder if Kris can control their blade alignment as not to deal lethal strikes.
Basically, Kris KNOWS of the player's control over their life and doesn't like it one bit. (Remember Chapter One's ending..?)
But by playing the part of a "willing" puppet, Kris may be able to get strong enough to break free.
I mean the kid literally had to pull their soul out so often that they has a little bird cadge in their room and weather it's the player removing Kris to do what they want without their interference or Kris removing the player to be able to have control over their own actions they really needs help from the outside.
They're not "don't trust themself". They don't trust US
@@TheSkyGuy77 It's more ambiguous in the normal route how Kris feels about us. Other characters remark that they seem genuinely happy with what's going on. Well, most of it - they do *not* like the Spamton NEO fight in the basement
How much Kris and Susie care about each other is severely overlooked when it comes to theories and stuff
It seriously is, but I think it's so important. Susie is, without question, one person we know for a fact Kris cares for even with our puppeteering. I think they see a lot of themself in her, as they're both kinda delinquents with poor social skills (initially), and both of them started these journeys together.
exactlyyy i love their friendship sm and it's a huge part of the game
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@@rayckhallowed noice
The more it goes the more I like her, she the one character right now I just don't doubt is a good person for real, like I can believe i any "X is evil" theory but the Susie ones never make sense to me idk why.
Maybe because she the most real, like she's kinda mean but really she's brutally honest and straight forward,,
Also I think meeting Lancer helped her so much too, like when he's thanking her for teaching how to laugh, she's so flabbergasted at someone thinking she's cool and she's so protective of her loved ones, she's so bad at hiding it too '
i just love susie so much lol (i actually love every character in that game, their flaws and qualities are so real it's hard to legit hate a character, at worst they're annoying to me)
It feels like Susie gets left out of a lot of the discussion around deltarune, so It’s nice that she’s talked about here!
Yeah, I'm surprised Susie doesn't get more love, given how pivotal she is to everything that happens. Girl's had some great character growth, too!
Definetly agree. Susie is someone Kris meet jsut yesterday (in game) but connected deeply and even risks his life to protect, without the player/soul interaction. And Susie cares about Kris feelings, the real Kris
Also, at the beggining of the city, there's a save point that says something like "neither mean girls or fluffy boys are with you, reluctantly, you're filled with the power of that cat sign"
and if you come back after being reunited with susie and ralsei, it says "you are mostly filled with the power of fluffy boys and mean girls, the cat sign still comprises about one percent of it" and I love how it shows Kris really cares about them, it's just so sweet
Yesss, god. I wish I'd thought to include that here. I do plan to do a larger scale Kris analysis that covers their character as a whole at a later date, so I can definitely put a pin in that. There's still a lot to Kris outside these videos about their motives at the end of the chapter. So many fun quirks and details.
I view Kris making a fountain in the normal route as a act of desperation, out of fear of Susie not wanting to be friends without constant dark world dopamine.
Just like spamton. Desperately trying to hold onto what they loved, to the point of harming others
I don't think that Kris would get so desperate so fast. I think he might be bored. Or maybe it's another fake out.
The slashed tires might just be a way for Kris and Susie to walk school.
@@getthedunkon9347 OH CHRIST IT'S GETTING EVEN MORE SAD
@@getthedunkon9347, or/and to show the police what is going on. I mean, Susie and Undyne described Kris as a "snitch", I think that is really just their cry for help. Also before falling asleep Susie mentions how these dark fountains helped with creating new adventures, meeting new friends. Already two solid reasons to make a new fountain
I've always been interested in how Susie is unique in that she can actively choose to not listen to us, from refusing to do anything but fight for the first half of Chapter 1, to not listening to our- the soul's- choices during the scenes where the cameras focuses on her.
She's like the opposite of Noelle, where in Snowgrave the soul seems to actively be able to control Noelle when the screen goes black, taking hold and controlling her actions, despite literally being focused on Susie during those two scenes, we can't even change one of her dialogue choices. She is completely out of our control, only listening to Kris because she wants to.
There's something up with Susie, something that puts her just out of reach of our control, and considering how is a specially her who was teased by Clamgirl in Undertale, and how a huge theme in Snowgrave is about being able to control the other characters, I can't help but wonder if this unique aspect she has will be what eventually saves Kris in the normal route, and will cause her to be the final challenge we face in Snowgrave.
Yeah, I think Noelle and Susie are definitely interesting in their contrast. Granted, Noelle does become more strong-willed over the course of the normal route, but I think Susie is extremely pivotal to Deltarune BECAUSE she's so independent and strong-willed. I think Susie only listens to Kris because she's come to respect them. If we started making Kris do even more heinous things around her, I think she would definitely intervene, and her being the final boss of the Weird Routes would make a ton of sense!
That's because the soul doesn't have direct control over any character other than Kris. We can make Kris give suggestions to the other party members on our behalf, but ultimately Kris' friends still have full autonomy over their actions.
The only exception I can think of is Noelle after we equip the thorn ring on her since its "trance" status makes her almost entirely subservient during the Berdly and Spamton NEO fights.
Ralsei just follows whatever Kris/we suggest because he believes that's his purpose and doesn't know anything else, though after the boat ride dialogue, that's likely to change in future chapters.
@@Dorked OOOH MASKED MAN kris
OMG COULD CHARA BE CONTROLLING HER?!?!?,.?!..??!!??! 12??
-joke-
@@davisdf3064 ….
I’m just watching.
For now.
Kris' motive is definitely a gambit for freedom imo. Everything we know about who they are without the player's influence indicates that this is someone who desperately wants to be free.
Oh, 100%. Freedom is a recurring theme with the secret bosses, too. I feel like that has to go somewhere.
@@Dorked The question being, what price is Kris willing to pay?
whats kris gender
Fun fact I learned replaying Chapter 1 yesterday: if you do nothing when Susie suggests Kris and Ralsei fight her and Lancer (the choice between "Let's Fight" and "Let's Not"), for a single frame before the choice box is interrupted, "Let's Not" is highlighted! Which means even that early in Chapter 1, Kris doesn't think of her as an enemy!
Maybe that's not new information, but I think it's interesting that Kris shows signs of respecting Susie even before their conversation in the elevator.
thats highlighted too in noelles post about susie harrassing kris. they were never afraid of her, even though she kept messing with them. if anything, they seemed _amused_ with her antics. maybe they see themselves in her? i dont know. its interesting to speculate, though. kris is a mysterious one lol.
Interesting video. It makes me wonder if future weird routes will be harder to pull off as the story progresses and if we'll need to actively start forcing scenarios that cause Kris to split off from everyone else to cause more in the future instead of just waiting for a point where we do split up from everybody. It would fit with the idea that we're breaking the game by fabricating these situations that would allow us to exert our control more often
I can definitely see things becoming progressively harder. I think Kris wants to prevent us from repeating what happened with Noelle because of how much Snowgrave players are able to break things, and not in a fun kinda way. It's very different from the more minor variations the violent neutral path takes (e.g. Berdly's arm, fewer recruits, etc). Those are still a bummer, but at least nobody dies.
@@Dorked I also wonder if we ever are able to execute weird routes in later chapters, it'll be easier if some of the previous chapters never went through weird routes, or future weird routes are only available if you've done weird routes in previous chapters.
@@devthegoogleuser6198 There is no way our neighbors won’t question that we, Susie and Noelle were the last to see Berdly alive.
@@marctaco2624 Yeah true.
Maybe we might even be locked out if we try to kill someone to early. With your party members warning enemies about you just like Kris could for Susie.
I kind of think Susie represents the idea of agency and independence, both in the story and personally, to Kris. Since Kris seems to be a person struggling with a sense of control and agency they are naturally drawn to her. Ironic for the person who literally delivers the line "your choices don't matter".
Noelle on the other hand seems to represent a complete loss of control, some one lacking even the most basic abilities to stand up for themselves and make decisions, at least if you reenforce her learned helplessness.
Ralsei is a little more unclear at this point- which is, you know, intentional. Perhaps he's someone who believes in fate, or even some one determined to *make sure fate happens*, like taking control and planning too far.
What about Dess Holdiday? In a line of Dialogue from Noelle, she said that Dess would beat the heck out of Kris if they saw that they were teasing her, meaning that if Dess was there, Noelle could protect herself. That might be a connection with Susie, being big and tough able to keep Kris in check, just like Dess with Noelle. Except Dess is implied to be dead. Meaning if we really want to take control of Kris,
*we know what we have to do.*
@@helo6824 Dess is missing
@@eh2587 That doesn't change much.
It was always my idea that during the castle portion of a Snowgrave route, The whole game goes into a sort of "Limp Mode", Trying to get through the important parts of the story and getting to the end before something else goes horribly wrong. The only one who's detached from this is Spamton, who seems to have a sort of disconnect from everything else, Thanks to their interaction with... Whoever was on the phone. Think about it:
The castle's been invaded by Spamton, Seemingly without Queen knowing or caring, Otherwise, She'd of done something.
All the castle's traps and puzzles have been removed, Replaced with Pipis.
Susie and Noelle's entire scene with the Ferris wheel is cut.
Ralsei just tells Queen about the roaring. No Queen boss or mech.
It's as if you went *SO* far off script, That the *Game ITSELF* is panicking, Rushing you through what's left and getting you to the end as fast as possible. It adds a new level of creepy to it all, As if the game thought it'd be impossible for you to screw things up this badly.
The game's basically like "There's nothing to worry about, Their choices don't matter." But when you find a loophole around that caveat in Noelle. The game doesn't know what to do.
After seeing how high the stakes were risen in Chapter 2, I'm invested in seeing how the Alternate Route's theme of manipulation will persist in later Chapters, Kris being in a Dark World with their mother really opens up opportunities for genuine heartache
Great analysis on Susie's character, her significance is an interesting topic (After all, there's a reason she's the character that Clam Girl talks about when foreshadowing DeltaRune)
Yeah, it just depends on how they go about it. I feel as though it'd have to be a different kind of manipulation with Toriel, rather than a murderous path. There's the idea of getting her to burn the house down by setting the dark world ablaze, there's the idea of getting Kris intentionally hurt to get Toriel to act out to defend them. Lots of potential for other approaches beyond a Snowgrave reskin.
bro i see you everywhere in ut/dr comment sections
Well, for future "snowgrave" routes, there is still five chapter to come and, if we don't count Noelle, Berdly, Susie aand Kris, five person in their class, so it may actually not be relevant tp only snowgrave route but also the normal route...
hehehe heartache
@@Dorked Her profile pic shows a heart locket, much like the one we could equip in UT.
I feel that this implies she will either give it to us as an item, or we will end up taking it from her.
Considering the Snowgrave route is also called the Weird Route, imagine how different things would get if you went and made Noelle do weird things like casting Ice Shock onto the walls or using Snowgrave on a traffic cone
I think that future chapters will have varying levels of sequence breaks for their weird routes, rather than all being murder fests. I think a lot of people just assume it'll be a repeating formula due to Undertale's genocide run.
@@Dorked I 100% think that if we do get a Chapter 3 weird route, we're going to have to instead do something that puts Kris in danger in front of Toriel, in order to manipulate her into accidentally killing someone.
@@Dorked Chapter 7's Weird Route will only be accessible via a genuine glitch that Toby left in during development because it was funny, and then "fixed" in a day 1 patch that changes nothing else.
@@TheAdvertisement cringe. do you seriously think it will be like that?
@@pustota7254 lmfao who uses cringe uniroically nowadays.
Regarding 5:30:
I think the screen doesn't transition to Noelle in the Snowgrave route because we the player don't want Kris to let Ralsei know what happend. If we remember back to Chapter 1, when we followed Susie's breakout, when we returned to Kris and Ralsei, Ralsei was talking to Kris about something and immediately stopped as soon as the player returned. I think the player wants to prevent Ralsei finding out what happend and that's why they refuse to transition. Ralsei senses something is wrong with Kris and tries to make the player "leave" (transition) by asking things like "I wonder whats happening in there" and similar statements. Ralsei isnt a villian to Kris and susie, he is a threat/villain to the player! That is my theory.
Oooh, that's actually a good point. When we turn the camera to Susie, Kris is free to talk to Ralsei. By eliminating that possibility, Kris can't do that. Dang, I shoulda articulated that in the video. XD
@@Dorked to elaborate even more: Ralsei says "umm, I said dont you wonder... how noelle and susie are doing" as if Ralsei is irretated or confused by the player not leaving. Why else would Ralsei follow up with "I'll wait a minute first". A minute for what? Wondering about what theyre doing in there? No, the only logical answer is waiting for the player to leave.
@Rewalas Rewalas On top of that, when Susie bolts out of the door, Ralsei says "Wait! But we were supposed to..." as if he knew he was supposed to have a conversation with Kris.
I'm sorry, but if that were the case I'm sure we would've had the option to.
@@professorcontrol9708 we never had options
Please consider that Kris and Ralsei are very clearly and provably both aware of the Player and conspiring against the Player in such a way that is designed for the player not to notice. There is a distinct possibility that the entire purpose of the adventures in the dark worlds is a distraction meant to keep the player on the path to their own banishment. If this were the case, Kris would have to engineer said path in its entirety before the player entered their world. It is possible that while Kris was successful in keeping the player trapped upon this path, they may not have accounted for the possibility that, within this path, such a strange route could be taken that the player would be able to finagle things to have such terrible consequences for Berdly and Noelle. That being said, while the harm that comes to Berdly and Noelle would be an undesirable outcome, Kris would be forced to continue upholding this conspiracy and proceeding to keep the player on track to their own banishment due to the fact that revealing the conspiracy to the player, or worse, giving up and allowing the player to escape the path, is a far more disastrous situation than the regrettable sacrifice of a single bluebird.
This is why everything ends the same way, no matter what you do.
You put alot of effort and never got comments, Here
How would they know that there is gonna be more fountains and that the player is gonna control before any of it happened? Are you gonna claim that the knight is actually a 3rd conspirator, and the 2nd voice at the intro is a 4th?
@@eh2587 Simply put, they chose all of that. And no, I am firmly in the "Kris is the knight" camp.
So I’m imagining this imples that Ralsei is actively engaging in a brain battle against Gaster in secret. That’s badass.
Since he’s the one who put the player in Deltarune.
He definitely has an ulterior motive.
It’s alluded that he made the prophecy which needs something banished, which I assume is us...
Yet he’s also the reason why we’re here in the first place?
YES!! THIS!! LITERALLY THIS!! a lot of what i've been thinking after replaying it is like this. ARE ralsei and kris conspiring to distract the player because they're powerful and therefore dangerous?!?!? LIKE!! SOMEONE ELSE THOUGHT IT WOO
kris after the snowgrave route:
I NEED AN ADULT
I NEED AN ADULT
I NEED AN ADULT
I NEED AN ADULT
I NEED AN ADULT
It’s so sad 😢, i hope the kids will be ok
Again, I love the portrait of who's the bad guy in the Snowgrave Route. US. We are the bad guy. No one can say otherwise. We chose all the killing, we chose to scar Noelle and honestly it makes me feel sorry for Kris. Toby knows how to make people who have to do everything in the game feel horrible
And that line. That. SINGLE. Line. *YOU whispered Noelles name* . It's just so... mystifying. And I adore it
I really love how in part it feels in response to how many people try to claim no responsibility for the Massacre route in Undertale. For as obvious as it felt there the hand the Player had in everything, Deltarune makes it even more explicit in Weird route.
The idea of Kris getting the cops involved of hopes of being arrested for murder is really chilling...
holy fuck, how did you make kris's end-game actions make MORE sense in the snowgrave route?? and im only like 10% joking ??? LIKE. DUH. now that you've pointed it out, it actually makes A Lot Of Sense that kris would want susie, their mom, and a police officer around after the events of snowgrave. that makes me wonder all the more about their motivations in the normal route ! why do they seem to want undyne (or at the very least, a police officer) to be in the dark world with them if they're just having a fun adventure with their friend? -- which, as i recall, is the prevalent explanation for kris's actions in a non-snowgrave route. my brain wants to dive wildly into "did dess fall into a dark fountain? is kris trying to find her, after reconnecting with noelle?" but that's like, the best ive got for it. gosh this is just such a good point that i haven't seen anywhere else, thanks as always for giving me more notes to add to my deltarune theory google docs ^.^
I think Undyne is definitely gonna be important, since Kris can be pushed to warn her about dark worlds in both chapters and even seems to be concerned about more people falling in. There's a strong possibility that Kris has multiple reasons for what they're doing in both routes, and I do definitely like the Dess in the dark world/lost in the code angle, too. c: Happy to inspire speculation!
@@Dorked Kris now knows that too many fountains at once will cause the Roaring. They probably reason that Undyne and Toriel can help seek them out without being in danger, or at least search for the knight. And with Cyberworld just recently sealed, now is probably the safest time to create one to prove their existence.
Remember how kris and susie talked about having darkners in the real world? i think it is something like that
maybe to arrest the KNIGHT . i mean the Knight is creating fountain and giving power to the darkners so he will probrably come to Kris's house to tell Mike (or the boss, we don't know if he will be the boss of chapter3) about the lightners so Mike kills them, and Kris wanted to arrest him so he can create fountains to go on advencures with Susie without being scared to make the roaring happen
@@rich_gamer0667 interesting
I’ve always felt bad for Kris. They’ve been puppeted by the player and forced to interact with people they don’t inherently like, especially Susie in the beginning. They’ve been forced to act in ways they don’t want to act, and unlike Frisk, Kris has a unique personality that we just ignore.
I also think that Kris had some sort of trauma with humans before the game’s events, which is why they close the book with humans so quickly in the library. And yet, form all of this, people think they’re the bad guy just like Chara, even though it’s the player’s fault. I really hope we get an encounter against Kris where we have to face our actions, that would really be the best ending for Kris.
Yeah, I think Kris has an interesting relationship to their own humanity and feel very much like an outcast due to being the one human in town among a society of monsters. Generally, I just think a lot of people like to boil characters down to black and white morality, but I think doing so severely misses the point of Toby's work and the nuance therein.
@@Dorked That point about the characters is definitely true, I think Undertale shows that Toby rarely makes a character bland without some reason for it. And as for the point on Kris feeling odd being in a fully monster town, maybe the real reason they’re so against the player is that they know WE are a human. Perhaps they endured some sort of abuse or stress from being controlled by humans in the past, and they’re finally standing up to another human when they-we-endanger their friends and family.
I have a feeling that the soul aka the player is the knight
@mahoushoujo yup, I don't agree about that either. The Soul is important, but that doesn't mean it has to be The Knight. There's no evidence at all
Of course people are going to think Kris is evil.
People fear and hate what they don't know.
i have a theory on why Kris wants to open a dark fountain. i like your idea on susie undyne and toriel, i now also like to think that they where called for protection; but that doesen't fully explains why kris wants to open it in the first place. when you seal a dark fountain your LOVE increase, your HP increase, your ATK increase, you become stronger. in UNDERTALE after a genocide route Frisk/Chara begins to act withot the control of the player: they walk without our control, they kill asgore without our control, and at the end they destroy the world without our control ("Since when were you the one in control"), basically they become FREE. so maybe Kris wants to seal as many fountains as they can, so that they can get lot's of EXP, without killing anyone, and use it to rebel against the player...?
Ooh, that's a neat angle! I think it depends a lot on the meaning of LV, tho, since in dark worlds it might mean something besides level of violence/execution points. In the light world they are still LV 1, and even being passive and kind, the LV increases with each fountain, so we may see something along the lines of, idk, "Light Value" or something and toby toying w/ expectations. Hard to say at this stage!
@@Dorked lmao "light value" would be awesome
@@Dorked I know this is late but a Rudin in Castle town mentions that the more fulfilled or happier you are in life, the higher your level is.
This is somewhat proven by Ralsei who is level 2 as well despite not being present when the fountain is closed.
i imagine being constantly controlled against your will would make someone completely free and independent like susie seem very appealing. not to mention, ralsei’s direct acknowledgment and complete compliance with the player is probably also why kris don’t like him nearly as much as susie or noel.
It's really interesting how Kris is less comfortable with Ralsei (but doesn't outright dislike him). I think there's a lot to unpack and we may learn more later!
@@Dorked i mean i don't think i would get along with a younger copy of my brother that is away for college that was in disguise and knows i am possesed by an entity that we can't see. This is my opinion the idk...
@@rich_gamer0667 I don't think Ralsei is meant to be Asriel, anyway. I think it's more likely he's the red horned headband that Kris had when they were younger turned into a darkner- basically ta manifestation of Kris' desires to fit in with their family, but also his own individual. If he was meant to be Asriel, Toby would not shiptease with Kris because that's a huge can of worms.
@@Dorked that's an interesting way to think of it it is possible that Kris wants to fit in with the goat family😭
What makes you think Kris doesn't like Ralsei as much?
5:25 the meta explanation is most likely both Toby not wanting to code and write 2 separate cutscenes with Susie and Noelle AND not give us any extra information on how traumatized she is.
I could definitely see that being a non-diagetic reason, too.
now that you brought up susie it makes a lot of sense. Fluffy boy may know something has a hold on them and has noticed the effect Susie has on kris so tries to not leave them alone. He may be trying to encourage Kris to demonstrate their free will and break control by making them party leader, make choices, encourage love and peace and the hero of legend while he acts as a supportive figure to them.
But Ralsei and everything he says is coming across as artificial to Kris because we are making these choices, not them.
Even on the swan ride we make all those choices and not them. Sometimes making too important choices like who kris should bring to the festival.
Even after the battle with spamtom were kris breaks down Ralsei can only give lip service, hugs. hes trying to get everyone to move on from what happened to not upset Kris but that is not what Kris needs. meanwhile Susie recognizes right away that Kris's stress is being ignored and stops the group to acknowledge that happened and is truly able to make them feel better through jokes and reassurance. She honestly looks offput by what Ralsei is trying to do during this scene.
Ralsei is "nice'" but being "nice" isn’t the same as deeply caring or worrying about someone. It's nice to ask how someones day is, its caring to dig deeper and ask for details. Whether his care is real or not everything fluffy boy does feels fake which makes sense for someone who has been alone for a long time. He wouldn’t be able to pick up the subtle changes in people like Susie could. i can see why kris would not like him as much as Susie even if fluffyboy is harmless and means well. Good people can hurt the people they care about through ignorance.
Susie is fostering rebellion in Kris and empowers them by proving over and over again that she can defy the player. I can see in the future Susie snapping on Ralsei for his fakness if he tries to brush aside what happens with the next secret boss.
she'll probably cause more scenes were we suddenly cant make choices for kris anymore and our positions will be reversed and we'll come into conflict with kris and the fun gang.
You have to remember that before Kris and Susie entered the dark world for the first time, Ralsei was entirely alone and had no friends or anyone to confide in. I don’t think his way of making Kris feel better and trying to alleviate their stress is fake. That “Oh well, let’s keep moving and put it aside” is most likely what he has had to do all his life while waiting on the heroes from the legend.
On the swan lake ride in Queen’s castle he pretty much confesses that he had no idea what being friends really meant until he got to know them more, so I think he will get better as the game goes on (this phenomenon exists in psychology too. People who are extremely isolated and don’t ever talk or socialize with others generally have worse people skills).
i think its important to note that what you communicate to other people and how you actually feel can be totally different things. ralsei may come off as a bit uncaring sometimes, but given the fact that hes been seemingly isolated from people for a very long time and has little to no sense of actual identity, i think it makes sense for him to default to just being typically nice. i struggle so much with what to say in conversations, i tend to default to stuff like "hows your day been" or "im sorry to hear that" to someone whos going through something. and it might sound a bit robotic but i dont say it because i dont care, i say it because i have absolutely no idea what else to say. so i just say what i think is expected in conversation. words just dont come easily for some people. and, believe it or not, a lot of social stuff is taught. we dont come out the womb knowing how to interact with people. i think that is something ralsei will learn more about as the game goes on.
I also find it interesting how spamton is affected by each routh, though a fake out in the normal route he does seem to want to improve himself just before you cut his last string and his hopes are crushed, in snowgrave you enable his current state and he is much more villain like wanting to rule over the cyberworld, idk I just thought this might be interesting since not many people think about how spamton is effected by your route, it's kinda like in normal you show him what he really wants but in snowgrave he goes further down his dark path
Exactly, think you're onto something with that last sentence.
I wonder if like how Undertale’s genocide shows people’s best selves, Deltarune’s weird routes will show people’s darkest paths.
@@wolfkitty42 that sounds pretty interesting though the weird route does also show a heroic side to birdly so not sure if that will be the case
i think spamton's last string breaks on its own from his crazed bouncing.
@@j.hawkins8779 no pretty sure it's implied you cut the string for him
This is really interesting! I wonder if future weird routes have similar themes of "different actions, but it still leads to the same result".
I can see a lot of potential. For instance, trying to get away from Susie in chapter 3 or taking advantage of Toriel's maternal instincts to break the story in interesting ways. I know anonymouse proposed Toriel burning the house down due to thinking it's all a dream.
The blue bead has borken off of the track. The track has not changed, and the other beads will reach the same end of the track regardless...
@@Axquirix There is no other track. The only other option is to be broken off
Have you already forgot? YOUR CHOICES DON'T MATTER
I wonder if Noelle is just gonna be fine after that nightmare with us wearing her watch in the real world
I like the idea of Susie being completely uncontrollable by the player outside of battles just by character alone.
No incredible power or hidden abilities required. She'd just not do what you'd say if you tried to pull a weird route.
Susie knows better. She's her own person.
"We just want to skip the fluff." Ralsei, the fluffy prince, distracts the player with incidents that are meaningless to the player's (unclear) goals. I'm thinking fluffiness is coming together as a major theme.
The weird route in Deltarune is so fascinating to me, because I didn't expect it to exist in the first place. I think no one did after Chapter 1 where the main thing we heard was "your choices don't matter".
But here we are, Chapter 2 allowed us to break that rule and we have a genocide-like route, except it's much worse in some aspects this time.
I'm so glad you analysed the motives Kris has in Snowgrave. It didn't make sense to me why Kris would do the same and open a fountain in this route as well, but after this video it's more clear.
Keep up the great work and as always stay determined!
... YOUR CHOICES DON'T MATTER, but other's do... maybe the will all die in the roaring so it doesn't matter anyway, well atleast Berdly is going to lose an arm and then die and Noelle is going to be traumatize.
@@rich_gamer0667 Well, it's another interesting concept. Since Roaring was brought up in chapter 2, we would think that it will eventually happen. Guess we'll see...
kris and susie’s relationship is so overlooked, i love them so much
I ship them too bad
@@itzlucy34 me too:)
as someones whos watched deltarune from the sidelines since its release and only actually gotten into it recently, i really didnt think that would be the case. theyre so interesting, especially together, and they just get more interesting as time goes on.
@@itzlucy34I ship them too, although I’m pretty sure Susie x Noelle is going to be expanded meaning Kris x Susie is very unlikely to be in canon
I have a feeling that while Toriel won't take orders from Kris without question, like Noelle did, I do think that for Chapter 3's alt route, we can pretend to be/actually get severly hurt to force Toriel to burn anyone that dare try to kill their child. And we already know how Undyne does around heat so... the player making Kris do something so horrible, it gets Undyne to attack us, while right in front of Toriel will not end very well...
That... Makes a lot of sense.
Something I keep wondering is if the weird route will effect the secret bosses living in our inventory. Will keeping them in Kris' pockets be important to the worst run because we need them to witness it all so we can lead them down a dark path?
They were already on a dark path before Kris showed up & influenced them into taking a lighter one so you'd think that would have some kind of effect. Then again, maybe they just wanna see what Kris does & they don't care about the morality of it. Jevil's in it for the chaos & Spamton just wants to see Kris find their own path to freedom, no matter what that path is.
I suspect there will be extremely dark runs even outside the weird run. Like aborting a weird run at the last moment in chapter 2, then breaking Berdly's arm so Noelle knows it wasn't a dream, & using the thorn ring to make the twisted sword so Kris can commit murder with the twisted sword without worrying about Noelle turning on them.
I'm having a hard time articulating my thoughts so this might not make sense, but this makes me wonder how the weird route(s) will be handled in totality. Both because snowgrave and any further routes should have slowly growing effects and there's setup for a few different ways that the game could handle these effects. Like on one hand Susie could notice what's going on and help Kris end the player's influence in their life. At the same time, if there's more weird routes, I can see it leading to Kris potentially giving up on resistance.
"hAPPY fEET dUMBASS"
will always be my single favorite moment involving Susie.
This honestly makes me concerned about the next weird route, especially with how Kris feel.
Because, if there is one thing about Toriel I learned from Undertale (and more subtly apply to Deltarune too, it's yet to be much seen) it's that she is flawed. Not in the same way her husband is, sure, but still quite flawed. She is not Susie, she is not Undyne, and true she is not Noelle but that's about it.
While Noelle's learned helplessness is far more easier to manipulate, Toriel always struggle on a balance between standing her ground protectively and shielding the young ones's eyes, a behavior that she also apply to herself resulting in a balance between determination and denial, taking strong actions that change life massively (like leaving her kingdom or Asgore) to then do her best to forget and being as dismissive as can be. I do think this participates in making her the person who underestimate the most how bad Kris feels about Asriel's absence (or possibly the divorce too), even if it's not helped with Kris not opening up much.
And for as much as Kris trust Toriel, I totally think a weird route with her can happen in which she is pushed toward making bad things or things she doesn't know have a bad consequence for the sake of someone's protection. And it will be especially hard if she wound Kris's emotional wellbeing in an attempt to protect him.
Of course it might instead be anyone else but Susie, possibly Kris on his own, or maybe Undyne who is too eager and impulsive which can also result in bad things, but I do think the worst but plausible case scenario is a weird route focused on Toriel.
Glad to see SOMEBODY that doesn’t think that kris is just some player puppet
Kris seems pleasantly happy in the normal route, apart from Spamton. Noelle talks about old times, and Kris saying they're friends makes her happy too. Then of course, Susie and Ralsei also care for you, but...Ralsei is in an odd position. Wonder what's up with them.
It's so cool to see someone discuss the close relationship between Kris and Susie, and it's impact on the story. Awesome video Dorked!
Susie is such an interesting character with a lot of potential, being clear of what she wants to do but also being mysterious, like, which are her motivations? Why does she get 'shy' when she meets Toriel? Why does she get so exited about getting a room on the Dark world? And many other questions can be made about the character, imagine if at the end she was actually the true hero or actually got another very important role for the story-
To be fully honest I don't think I will be the only one to get extremely disappointed if we don't get a chapter more focused on her
So maybe Kris is just afraid to be alone with us.
_Interesting_
Very
Very
Interesting.
I love Susie and Kris’s friendship, I would love to see people talk more about their friendship that people drooling for Jevil and Spamton 😔 my favorite thing about Undertale was the relationships between the characters, and that doesn’t stop at Deltarune.
this person's not just amazing at aus, they understand so much about lore, and make solid theories.
Honestly I just see it as: Susie ignores our commands, which means she can't really be affected properly to make weird route with her?
Maybe she'll be against us on a weird route?
I think Susie could definitely be a late game boss if the weird routes continue in subsequent chapters.
@@Dorked Her power could depend on what stuff we gave her for weapons and stuff unless that's too complicated to code? Sorry- haven't coded anything good in a year.
@@kk_cats6072in chapter 1 Susie’s stats are affected by whatever gear they have equipped
I was really excited when I saw you were making a video about this! It's something I've been wondering about myself as to how these two very different routes connect. Great stuff as always!
Thanks! It's an epiphany I had... last month, I think? Like, I was trying to figure out how to make sense of it all after watching Andrew Cunningham's video and then it just clicked. Finally, a reasonable explanation without the dreaded "third entity"!
I love how the "scary" part of the chapters is when you play as Kris, all alone, with no other npcs around. you're technically controlling the "bad guy" i guess, and it's very uncomfortable and spooky :)
@mahoushoujo we'll have to wait to know that
Excellent video!
I do believe that Kris opened the dark fountain in Chapter 2 for Susie. Right before opening the fountain, they look at Susie. They do check if she's asleep, but they seem to only check Susie. This could be that either Kris is fearful of Susie knowing that they opened the fountain, or they are just telling themselves they are doing this for Susie.
Susie is a Good Friend
The kind of friend that would go : "if you Misgender my friend one more time i will eat your Kneecaps."
As seen in the conversation between Snowdrake, Monster kid, Susie and Kris at the Bunker in Chapter 2
Hell yeah! Finally, someone gives Susie the repsect she deserves!
I honestly love her free agency so much. How she can just.....*not* listen to the godlike entity controlling the world. It's soooo badass. I wish Kris was more like that, and I know they do too. I cheer every time she's on screen, and I cheer every time she defies us. I have a feeling, no, a hope, that she'll find out we're possesing Kris and then absolutly kick our ass. She'll lead the charge as everyone beats us up. You bet your ass I'll be smilling as wide as I can as she absolulty obliterates me an exessive amount because god damn am I bad at video games.
This is a pretty cool video! You have got a new sub. Although, I do wish to share something about the Snowgrave Route that has been nagging me that isn't exactly in relation to Kris or Susie, but in regards primarily to Noelle, something I feel is overlooked and could be me just looking into things too much, so I would really appreciate your opinion on it!
As we know, throughout the Snowgrave Route our manipulation of Noelle forces her to grow in power until she finally snaps and traps Berdly in an icy diamond. When we meet up with Queen, Susie says that Noelle needs to wake up.
And Queen replies with something like "She has already awakened too much." 'Awakened.' 'Too Much'. The usage of those words/phrase feels oddly important to me for some reason, and I feel like that is going to mean something more later on.
The weird psuedo avatar state she turns into at her breaking point is also something I don't see many people discuss. I've heard some people speculate that Noelle may know what this powerful magic is due to some incident prior, and that her affinity for the cold may be tied to some trauma she has experienced, but I don't know for certain.
As I've stated, I could be reading too much into things. But Snowgrave simply doesn't feel like a one off event. Especially with the now exclusion of Berdly, to the Thorn Ring granting Noelle stronger powers(or perhaps giving her better control over them?) and Spamton becoming powerful enough to usurp Queen. All of this is just the consequence from the inhumane treatment of Noelle.
It's also probably worth noting that Noelle is the only other person besides presumably Ralsei who can sense player input, even when she's nowhere near Kris(or when Kris is knocked out, something that is noted when you're downed in the fight with the radio dudes is that Susie and Ralsei are forced to act on their own) but I might just be picking at straws there.
To sum up my thoughts, I just have this hunch that Noelle is going to be integral in some way to how the plot unfolds, and it's going to be based around her nature of her powers.
That's a really good point. I think Noelle is definitely going to be crucial in all routes, and the idea of her "awakening," has some very fascinating implications. I look forward to seeing where it goes!
I do wish some people wouldn’t dodge their bad actions in Deltarune by saying Chara or Gaster or Kris being the bad guy, I think Kris is doing what they do for a reason that isn’t bad at all
It honestly feels like Deltarune is more about WHY we happened to be forced into controlling Kris.
We didn't have a choice in that, for whatever reason.
My pet theory on it is that after Azzy left for college/university,
Kris (being quite sad) played with a ouija board (or some other ""occult"" magic) with Catti and actually summoned something that stole his actual SOUL away.
Later on, WE got thrown into this story by downloading and running this game and ""connect"" to Deltarune's universe.
Whomever we talk to during that "survey program" segment (its probably Gaster; could literally be anyone though), they forced us into Kris as a surrogate soul (for whatever plan this being has for Kris and us).
And our "goal" is to guide Kris towards the completion of that strange being's endgame.
Ralsei may know about this, as he keeps nudging Kris and Susie to go in a "pacifist" direction. And seemingly wants to know more about the player, rather than Kris.
Sorry for rambling
THANK YOU
I always see people interpret the snowgrave route as Kris "doing what he wants" when all signs point to the complete opposite. (Including the fact that you're still controlling him)
A lot of the fandom seems to interpret Kris as this maniac serial killer entity
They😡
Kris and Susie’s relationship is never talked that often simply cause people just see the relationship as “friend/player turn a bully into a friend” and nothing more.
I'm going to go off what you said about Toriel being protective and say..
Maybe we the player can manipulate that? Like, we have to force ourselves to low health or maybe into a downed state and THEN she'd be vulnerable to manipulation. A reason I say downed, is thanks to the fact that Noelle can still hear our voice.
I know how evil that sounds, but it's also an interesting concept. Not to mention how Kris themselves could react, considering Toriel is their mother.
Something I noticed is that both officers are theoretically vulnerable to Toriel’s magic. While Undyne is mortally weak to fire, Nabsterblook (a ghost) is immune to physical attacks. What if we have to face both.
And we see after snowgrave that Kris is traumatized by what we did to their childhood friend and their rival, gauging by Susie’s reaction, so I really don’t think they will fell well doing the same to their mother and their father’s best friend/apprentice.
im so terrified of the idea of berdly being truly dead in chapter 3 if you do the snowgrave route. like berdlt being absent in class or people talking about a funeral
Unlikely to happen, because snowgrave needs to have little impact on the plot in order for the "your choices don't matter" thing to work
@@watching7721 I honestly think the "your choices don't matter" is ultimately directed more as Kris themselves, as they can't do anything to prevent this. All Toby promised was 1 ending. The Deltarune website itself says, "Q:How many endings are there?
A:One.
Q:Then doesn't that mean nothing I do matters?
A:There's something more important than reaching the end." So it very well could be that the Snowgrave/Weird routes will affect the path to get to the ending, but the ending will always be the same. Or, the same events will play out, but slightly differently (See: Chapter One's endings. You could argue there is only one ending as, either way, the King is defeated and the fountain sealed. However, whether you use mercy or violence to enemies before King affects whether he is pacified or overthrown.) or with a different emotional feel.
in the normal route, when berdly awakes, he says he has an important reunion, imagine what happends next in the snowgrave route
I could see people maybe wondering where Berdly is. Perhaps the library NPCs talk about it? There's a lot to consider there!
@@Dorked Undyne, Toriel, Aplhys and Rudy all know that we went into the library at about the same time, and hours later only three came out. Also keep in mind that everyone is afraid of Susie and distrusting of Kris by default, and that Noelle is clearly disturbed by something she can’t (won’t) describe. I imagine this is the reason chapters 3-5 will be released together, to fully explore the consequences of our actions.
I like to believe the choice between point and eat moss is more so a choice for what Susie thinks Kris would choose, which is why she then says Kris wouldn’t know what to do. It’s funnier when you think about that specific choice like that.
I'm the only one who thinks kris opens the fountain only to have acces to the main hub because next day the school will be close?
you know, at the time when you said everything keeps going like normal, i kind of thought about goner kid, berdly stopped existing and no one remembers.
Something I’d love to hear you talk about is the theory that kris STRONGLY dislikes or even hates ralsei, and what ralsei may be doing off screen when our focus isn’t on him and ralsei and kris are alone
I have lots of ideas about Ralsei, tbh! I'd love to do an actual analysis of his character, too, since too many people are focused on if he's evil or not.
Very interesting Theory Dorked!
Thank you very much!
How would you have watched it yet?
It's 8 minutes long and it's only been out for 5 minutes.
Is this a patreon thing or something?
@@pineappleudh6561 It was available on my Patreon, but maybe they were just leaving a comment before they had finished? Hard to say. I am no mindreader!
@@pineappleudh6561
I am not a patreon, however, with the amount I watched, it I was thinking it was an interesting theory so far.
@@PhoenixGraye
Fair enough
you mentioned susie's influence earlier, i think in the normal route since susie says at the fountian in chapter 2 "but... is that really a bad thing...?" Since they've been showing up, everythings gotten alot more intresting, has'nt." which leads kris to believe susie wants these dark worlds, telling them they should make (more/one) (depends on if kris is the knight)
Susie is going to become an integral part of the later parts of the game and likely the “true hero” of the trio.
I’m so proud of my rough around the edges purple dinosaur tomboy. 🥲
SUSIE IS SO GOOD. I love her a lot, especially seeing her growth in chapter 2. I think her being the "true hero" even has precedent with Clamgirl's dialogue in UT.
I agree on susie being the true hero of the group and not kris since because being the main character doesn't always mean you will fix everything at the end.
Plus she's literally stands at the middle in the legend so that is either a hint or a coincidence.
@@Dorked Could Clamgirl's dialogue that sound like a warning have a sort of meta implication ?
It's from one of the characters existing only with FUN value, that we possibly need to search for as players, and now Deltarune where the player's search for different things make it the villain and Susie possibly the main antagonist of said player ? Like because seeking Clamgirl set us up as one of those players who seek weird routes ?
Could be over analyzing (probably is), just throwing that idea out there.
tomBOY? Are you kidding?
is it strange that know i want an Undying Susie fight? i mean imagine that she will be the final boss in weird routes, she would be super strong to beat with her magic
this is a really good uncomplicated analysis of kris's actions. makes me feel like maybe my theories have been getting a lil too crazy lol.
ive been dwelling for awhile on the theory that dess holiday might be the reason kris has been opening dark worlds. dess doesnt have a grave so she's probably not dead, she and her sister along with the dreemurrs explored the woods near the gaster bunker as kids, kris has some sort of trauma about that bunker according to monster kid. there's unused dialog in the code of the game of someone asking for help and how its so dark and quiet but they think they can hear scratching? (possibly monster kid and snowy outside the bunker?) the ending song for chapter 1 talks about how there's someone "with us in the dark".
ive even gone a little off the deep end with a theory that the unused [redacted] sprite that appeared in undertale might actually be dess holiday. the [redacted] sprite (which sort of looks like it has an antler) appears in a completely dark room that must be hacked into. its dialog is hidden not only by wingdings (which are in lowercase btw unlike the caps that gaster uses) but also in the sense that its literally been "redacted" matching with the unused text in deltarune lamenting that "no one can even hear them". the [redacted] room gives you access to the sound test room where, after gaster's theme plays, tells you "thanks for your feedback. be seeing you soon!" which draws to mind the fact that deltarune was initially titled "survey program" when it first dropped after a series of ominous tweets, written in the style of gaster of course.
so yea all these crazy theories have been taking up the majority of my mental real-estate and i overlooked the fact that kris may just want to make sure the next dark world has people that arent easily influenced in it, which is almost certainly the correct answer to explain kris's immediate actions. i still think dess is going to play a major role at some point later on but its nice to remember that not everything is so convoluted lol
Gosh dang :O
This was super duper interesting 👀
I'm very much vibing with this train of thought. I knew that Kris was most likely very against the actions of the player in the weird route, however I didn't realise many of the specifics that you pointed out there.
Very very interesting indeed
Wow you are pumping these videos out fast. I’m impressed and excited!
Haha, admittedly I had to get this one out pretty fast since the red soul video underperformed. Since TH-cam is one of my main income sources, I gotta account for stuff like that.
Susie and Kris' partnership and teamwork since ahpter 1 to 2 with Ralsei , in addition with 2 more is amazing!!!
Thank you for posting! I needed something to get my mind off everything going on.
Yeah, I understand. :( There's a lot of awful stuff going on in the world, so I'm happy to provide any relief I can with my content, even if it's not much in the grand scheme of things.
I actually think chapter 2's weird route is a bait and switch, and chapter 3's weird route will establish that we as the player will sometimes need to go off the rails to show Kris the consequence's of their actions. Much like how chapter 1 established sometimes violence is necessary. Remember Kris by opening the dark fountain at the end of chapter 2 is endangering everyone. Regardless of their intentions If we play along and give Kris what they want we will only encourage this reckless behavior. But by going off the rails and showing Kris how horribly it can go wrong we will discourage this behavior and prevent them from doing it in the future.
Why is it that instead of us (player controlling Kris’ body) scaring Susie the one who threatened to eat us we choose Noelle the sweetest character possible??? When Noelle literally did nothing to us
I've always felt like Susie is the ONLY character (so far, anyway) that is completely incorruptible, I mean, she's by no means a saint, but regardless of your choices when it's JUST Susie, she does her own thing, it might as well be a command to advance the dialogue rather than a choice.
I think Kris opening a dark world is them trying to test the players morality.
It’s kinda interesting how while Susie does go through significant character growth in the regular route she even kinder and more
Compassionate in the Weird Route (being the one who invited the queen to Castle Town and implied to be more open towards Noelle. I get the idea that Susie is going to become some sort of reflection/protagonist in the Weird routes?
its neat to note how ralsei highlights that you've gone off script during the thing with noelle at the hotel, he expects the camera to pan to noelle and susie, and then acts surprised when time JUMPS forward to skip that whole shebang, not to mention how he tries to brush the whole thing with spamton in the normal route off, and like, im not trying to imply ralsei is evil or anything, far from it, he just clearly knows more than he lets on, and im curious to know how he will develop across the story, because he's a very interesting character, its clear he cares about kris, but kris doesnt care about him
i think susie is our tutorial to teach us that although OUR actions don't matter, our partners can still be influenced to make decisions for us, leading to the revelation of weird routes and their likely future variants.
my guess is "gaster's" "experiment" he talked about when he sent us to deltarune was to see if determination could break past our "Actions not mattering". and if every weird route is done, a secret ending will unlock. or not? maybe our actions WONT matter in the end, who knows?
Ya I feel similar about gaster being involved. I also hold a strong belief that the prophecy is fabricated by him inorder to banish us. I think the reason there will be one ending will be because we get banished regardless. It just all depends if we are banished after taking out the puppet master or if we are forced out and leave gaster in control of this world.
Another thing that I want to point out is that Kris can let their soul exit their body without going into a weakened state. BUT, that only happens in the dark world when you finally seal a fountain. Kris seems to know about this and may try to fight player.
Perhaps its the same reason only our (player) soul can seal these fountains. That they have a similar energy, or it might be that in those scenes, we leave willingly.
That's interesting. He can slash and destroy the soul, catching it off-guard as it tries to seal the fountain. Ralsei's Dark World has another unique property wherein it is the only one we can exit without sealing it. Which is done with that large beam of light that appears post-chapter 1 after we re-enter it . So they can try it there without the consequence of trapping any lighteners in a dark world forever.
@@bearturtle6058th.. They.
Fun fact! In chapter 1 if you look in the mirror by your room it says “it’s only you” in chapter 2 it says “it’s the thing they call “you”” and tbh that freaked my out-
1:30 "rather than giving you the illusion of free choice I will take the liberty of choosing for you"
The VAGUE in "*some* people chalk it up to a *third* entity" lmaooo mood
Dialogue from spamtons SnowGrave fight.
You've been making [Hyperlink Blocked] haven't you? And now that you have your own supply you don't need me!!
You think making [Frozen Chicken] with your [Side Chick] is gonna let you drink up that sweet sweet freedom sauce.
There will be no more [Miracles], no more [Magic]. You lost it when you tried to see to far.
My theory.
Kris needed the SnowGrave route to become completely free of our control. Part of it anyway, specifically the ThornRing. The ThornRing and pure crystal together makes the twisted sword. Twisted sword lowers trance. Trance = Our control. We get the ThornRing from spamton but that's all we needed. There was no need to continue the route. We went "to far."
Doing the SnowGrave route partially could result in kris's freedom in the future.
Maybe Kris taking their soul out, is a pure act of determination to not be controlled- they dont want the player to control them. That pure determination to not be controlled, creates a dark fountain since determination is what creates these dark fountains.
I have always thought Ralsei talked to whoever Jevil and Spamton did, but instead of being driven mad or attempting to use it for his benefit, he realizes his best chance at peace is to assist and befriend the player
Nice job with this one! I know I'm a little late this time, but you've really improved. The presentation's cleaner, you get to each point well (though you already did, just an observation), and all the points hold up! Still, there's always a bit more to examine here. As always, here are my two Dark Dollars:
Firstly, it's worth considering whether viewing Susie was ever real. We haven't been given any indication Kris and Ralsei actually know what happens when this is said, in fact there's some evidence for the opposite. Chances are Kris simply didn't agree because of their stress/emotions.
There's something potentially huge I often see overlooked that I would've used in my own theory given time: When fighting Spamton in this route, it is impossible to miss. This contrasts greatly from the standard route, where Kris cuts the last string and reacts poorly when Spamton falls. Could they also hold anger for the part he played with Noelle?
As for the Determination video... please don't get too hung up on it. For starters, remember it had quite a few flaws. I don't wish to recreate that conversation under this video, but sometimes this occurrence isn't unfair. I've only had one video break 100, even with other Deltarune videos. ...What I'm trying to say is that this sort of thing happens, and you've already gotten luckier than many. Posting about it here may make sense for now, but don't get upset over it.
I think it's impossible to miss because Spamton has negative DEF as a way to balanec the fight, considering you fight him with Kris only instead of fighting with the entire party. (It's a quirk of Deltarune as a whole: if you try to attack an enemy with negative DEF, either due to them having negative DEF or due to you debuffing their DEF enough so that it goes into negatives) even when missing, you deal damage.
@@whomstthehecc3028 I know about negative def, but note where it's used. Intimidated Berdly, Snowgrave Spamton... it seems to assist plot.
I assumed that Kris opened a fountain because the Dark Worlds are a form of escapism for them, but I never thought how about the people they brought with them would affect things, especially Toriel.
I really like how in Deltarune and Undertale all the blood is on the player's hands
Being kind, gentle and naive doesn't necessarily make Ralsei a pushover.
I have found out that the more you use reset the better you get at using it, which is why flowey can save mid fight, and basing off my other theory, is why we have 3 save points and not just one.
These were exactly my thoughts. Fantastic video!
You're such an underrated TH-camr! ☺️ This was an amazing video! 🤗
thank you for being one of the few analysts who genders Kris correctly ♥️
Yeah, Kris using they/them is really important to me. It's exasperating to see so many people call them a guy, but it takes way too much energy to argue with every comment, so I just try to lead by example in my videos.
I never see any discussion on how Kris stares at Susie sleeping before opening the fountain.
I think there are a couple holes that need to be filled in here. Namely the times Suzie is out of your party in chapter 1 and in when she goes off in the queen's mansion.
In both situations, the brash one that can defy you is out of the party, leaving Kris (and thus, US) with the meek eager to please Ralsei.
By the logic presented here, there should be a way to at least try to derail the plot and corrupt Ralsei, but there isn't. So I think there should be an explanation as to why we can't do it to Ralsei when we are alone with him.
I think while Ralsei is similar to Noelle in that he's eager to please, the thing that separates him from her is his sense of duty. He's out to seal the fountains, recruit more darkners for Castle Town, probably take down the Roaring Knight, so on and so forth.
He's the prince of all darkners, one of the three chosen heroes poised to banish the Angel's Heaven. Noelle isn't even certain the Dark World is *real.*
What could Ralsei even do? His spells are all passive. He's very weak. There's nothing he can do that's particularly useful, whereas Noelle has the ability to freeze enemies in place as well as being very malleable.
@@Dorked What about when you give him the Puppet Scarf?
I wonder if there will be some sort of Weird Route based around corrupting Ralsei using the Puppet Scarf
@@chippotato5647 Oh it is certainly not hard to think of reasons why Ralsei wouldn't get corrupted... I just think that there should have been a small bit in the video that gives a reason or two for why you can't when Suzie isn't around.
@@rz2374 Very interesting. :O It *is* called the puppet scarf, so it's entirely possible.
I still think to this day that Ralsei is aware of it all being a game. notice how he only whispers to kris about what to do and suggestions.
Perhaps Susie will be a boss in later chapters, where we are FORCED to let susie kill the enemies since there are no other "companions" around.
and well... we did see what happend when her bouncy pumpkin friend "betrayed" her in chapter 1.
I also think it’s important to note that Noelle says something right in front of Kris that likely piqued their interest: in the Dark World, anything can be healed with a little spell.
I think the reason Kris opens the Dark Fountain after Snowgrave is because they think if they re-enter the Dark World, they might be able to find and help Berdly, without anyone there the player would be able to manipulate into making things worse. Toriel would never let any child be hurt, and Susie doesn’t like Berdly, but clearly doesn’t want him to die.
I think frisk and kris have something in common that is very important to note, during the genocide route, Frisk/Chara does things without the player’s input. They deliver the final blow on sans, papyrus, and asgore without your input and also slashes flowey multiple times even thought you only attacked once. And of course, chara destroys the world no matter what you say. This is used as a punishment for the player thinking they were above consequences. Frisk is a blank slate, with no background or motives, leaving them completely vulnerable to our whims, but chara has a backround and a story, and therefore has agency over their own story. I think this is what makes Kris able to defy the player. In the dark world, without any lightners, kris is once again a blank slate, no backround and no character leaving them open to the player’s suggestion. But in the real world, Kris has control. Their soul is not what gives them their personality, but instead a physical embodiment of your control over them. And this is where the differences in the two stories come in. I’m undertale, you control the world through frisk, your actions shape the world that you play in. But in deltarune, you control yourself. Because the same thing happens no matter what you do, your actions tell you more about your own place in the world then Kris’s. You can either be a guiding force, helping a lonely troubled child make friends and work through their issues, or you can be a controlling villain, fighting with the “good” kris just trying to live happily
Personal theory:
Kris isn't the Knight, but after finding out from Queen how to open dark worlds he decides to open his own. He slashes Toriel's tyres so Susie can stay the night, and opens a dark world ready for a new adventure in the morning.
Why? Because he's lonely. He wants friends, and Susie is the closest thing he has now
Doesn’t kris use they/them?
@@julietutsey3803 its up to interpretation. some people think she's a girl, some people think he's a boy, some people think they're neither. it's all what you want it to be :)
@@wontonschannel
“Ummm actually it’s canonically they/them bc the other characters use them when referring to Kris” 🤓
@@wontonschannelThat's just Frisk's case. Kris is their own person. They canonically use They/Them and that must be respected.
@@SantimsAnimations respectfully, its not that deep. i like seeing Kris as a dude, so im going to continue to do so. It’s not like he’s going to care or something!
If I remember correctly, queen still comes after the snowgrave route
she's just very sad because none of her subjects are there
it's more of an "I don't wanna be alone with dead people so i'll go" thing
I feel like if Kris did open a dark fountain on their own, the player is still gonna find a way to mess up their plans. If Kris does manage to get Toriel and Undyne the dark world, (which probably will happen, given the call about the slashed tires) Player will try and make Toriel kill Undyne. Because like you said, if Kris got arrested, the Player can't do anything. Naturally we would want to remove that option, and because of Toriel's motherly love we would use her to rid of it.