I think the Security Officer has a lot more complexity than that, actually. In the dream terminals, he seems to display some sort of guilt or weariness for the atrocities he has committed. Note that the only actual choices he made in the series were compassionate. 1. Choosing to stay and fight for the resistance even when he has a way out 2. Choosing to aid the BoBs and betray Tycho. You fail to realize that all of the carnage he carried out was either for a greater good or was basically him being held at gunpoint.
Yeah, I prefer this too because I feel the idea that the Security Officer just happily is fine with killing the Humans to be very dumb and degrades the story and the player character. I still find it a little lame/dumb that he has to do this regardless due to it happening in the successful Infinity timeline (and even more AFTER the level where you betray Tycho to save them) all for Tfear and all that, but it at least helps for most of it the idea that he doesn't want to.
Civvie should also cover the mods including Eternal and Rubicon as they're the closest to Marathon 4 & 5 we currently have. There's also Tempus Irae as well. Civvie also needs to do Pathways into Darkness, though he may have to do the A1 version so he can play it on Windows without emulating.
botond Nabradi I'm yet to do a TC run on it, but I've played on at least Normal and Major Damage. W'rkncacnter, the developer did a TC tips walkthrough I can check out.
I had always interpreted it not as the merged Durandal-Thoth AI bouncing you around timelines, but you the player somehow tapping into the Jjaro tech that was built into you - which the ending clearly says your creators didn't fully understand - so that you could find a timeline where the W'rkncacnter was not released. But actually looking at it now, the Dream stuff always carried the infinity logo which is a merger of the Thoth and Durandal ones so this does make some sense. I also don't think the plot was that complicated. And there are *five* timelines in the game, not three, and interestingly *none* of them are tied to Marathon 2. Marathon 2 is separate, Infinity is several other alternative timelines together. You start in the prologue in an alternative timeline to Marathon 2 (we know it is alternative because Durandal specifically says that you won't have time to explore Lh'owon - but we did that in M2). Presumably this is a timeline where Durandal was late arriving or the Pfhor battle group was already there for some reason, he fought them, beat them badly enough that they decided to blow up the star to spite him. Despair then has you working for Tycho, and IMO this timeline is actually a direct continuation of Marathon, where Durandal left you behind, allowing you to be captured and enslaved by the Pfhor. Tycho turns on the Pfhor, goes after Durandal, cripples Durandal's ship and when the team Durandal sent to the surface manages to activate Thoth and summon the S'phr'kr (and the Jjaro station) eventually decides to blow up the star to destroy everything. Failed timeline. This leads to a dream sequence where you can either jump to the timeline's conclusion (Aie Mak Sicur, where you remain Tycho's slave, possibly killing the Pfhor that were sent to the Jjaro station to try and contain what was unleashed - either way, the Pfhor battle group is annihilated by the W'rkncacnter, bad end) or you can skip over it, either way you jump timeline to Rage. What actually happens in this timeline IMO is that the Cyborg continues to be enslaved by Tycho and used as his tool right up until the end. So basically, you determine that if you stick with Tycho, everything goes bad. Rage starts with you exploring a timeline where Tycho gets beaten much earlier because Durandal brings you out of stasis faster and starts sending you against Pfhor installations. Meanwhile he sends a separate group of commandos down to explore Lh'owon, and they activate Thoth, but too early and Thoth acts as it was designed to, not actually helping and not summoning the S'pht'kr. Failed timeline. You are sent to Waterloo Waterpark but it's an alternate timeline,, this doesn't lead to M2 at all - by the time you are headed there Durandal's team has already activated Thoth. You jump into the dream sequence to jump again, either follow to the new timeline or see how this one ends (Carroll Street Station, which talks about K'lia having been destroyed so presumably Thoth didn't summon the S'pht'kr so you can't activate the station, but also the terminal here uses the Infinity logo suggesting that maybe in this timeline, Durandal and Thoth still merged, but the style of the message is very Thoth so perhaps Durandal was the one absorbed in the end rather than the reverse). So you jump back to a variation of Despair, back to the original Marathon 1 timeline again (IMO). This time, either Tycho's control over you is not absolute, or you make a conscious decision to follow a different path. You teleport onto Durandal's ship, as you did in Despair before the first Dream, but you change sides, and explore a different path, where you side with Durandal again, which causes Tycho to try and vent you but Durandal intervenes. In this timeline, you loose Tycho's hold over Durandal's ship, but Tycho sends a special team to physically capture Durandal (just as in Marathon 2). You prevent this, but Tycho then convinces the player that this is a bad idea because it will allow Durandal to infect Thoth as well, and so you instead agree to destroy Durandal completely. Failed timeline. You can continue to the final conclusion of the timeline (You're Wormfood, Dude, in which the station is not activated, the nova destroys the system and wipes out everyone, and the question of whether this also releases the W'rkncacnter is moot). Then we jump to Envy and look at a fourth timeline, winding back to the second timeline of Rage, only this time when you destroyed Durandal, he copied himself into your brain. At this point the main Pfhor battle group arrives and they recapture Tycho, and you as well. Tycho manages to open your prison door and then letting you do the rest, and you do so, freeing him in the process. But he leaves you high and dry and you are forced into working for Tfear (I don't think that the Pfhor knew you had Durandal's code inside you, rather that they were trying to recondition you to work for them, and failing) and when given a choice of doing what he says or dying you end up rounding up the remaining humans on Lh'owon so they can serve as Pfhor slaves. But the Pfhor science team in the mean time has accidentally begun awakening Thoth, who grabs you to assist in finishing the process. You do so, and this allows Durandal to jump from you into Thoth as Thoth fully activates, merging the two (the white Thoth symbol merges with the green Marathon logo to create the Infinity symbol). Tycho is very mad about this, sends you off to be killed by an army, you beat it and the reborn Durandal-Thoth calls in K'lia, unleashing the S'pht'kr. Tfear takes over the Jjaro station, but you take it back and activate it (Aye Mak Sicur). The Jjaro station basically creates a black hole and sucks the energy of the blast inside along with the W'rkncacnter. Good end. This tells us what the conditions are for avoiding the bad ending - the S'pht'kr must be summoned and must activate the station. For that to happen, Thoth must be activated to do that, but it will not summon them if Durandal is around. If the star is blown up before they are summoned, it leads to a bad end. If Durandal does not survive at the end, either as himself or as the dominant part of a merger with Thoth, you also lose. Note that *none* of these timelines correspond to Marathon 2, but theoretically Marathon 2 actually could be the 'perfect' timeline. Durandal is presumed destroyed (but was actually just laying low), Thoth is activated, K'lia folds back in, the S'pht'kr arrive, Durandal reactivates having transferred himself and taken over their flagship, and destroys Tycho. The Pfhor activate the Trih Xeem but everything would be set up on that timeline for the S'pht'kr to just activate the Jjaro station without you. M2 is also interestingly as mentioned a contradiction of the end of Marathon 1, because Durandal took you with him instead of leaving you on the Marathon - as mentioned further up it's most likely that M1's timeline is probably Despair.
Seems like the jarring transition to the sec officer helping Durandal is necessary, if we believe it was his own decision. The terminals throughout the entire series are essentially a method of receiving orders from someone else. The glaring omission of any order in this case is what communicates the player-character's agency.
Mandalore brought up a fascinating possibility/idea in his review of Bungies Pathways into Darkness video, a game perdating the Marathon series including the Jarro, possibly the W'rkncacnter. He throws out the idea that the oldier you play in that game might be the Security officer, having been but in stasis after being in contact with alien/otherwordly forces. The US would not have someone with that much exposure get a normal burial. It stand to reason that the solo soldier, up against alien forces on his own might be a spiffy tool to keep around for the future. A bit of a stretch, but looking at Infinity I wouldn't dismiss it outright.
I think Greg Kirkpatrick is a precursor to Yoko Taro. Many themes, the philosophical, literary & psychological references, the meta-narrative, some of the writing in the Marathon trilogy and the usage of alternate timelines in Infinity remind me of the Drakengard & NieR saga. The only other first person shooter that ever gave me those things is EYE Divine Cybermancy, by Streum On.
@@heftymagic4814 It's not depressing, it's just a complicated, tragic plot. I think the "message" he wants to convey, without the pretence of giving any lecture, is that the world and humanity are complicated. It's up to you to decide what to do.
Very happy to see you get around to this, infinity is truely a legendary title that easily remains one of the all time greats, and for that, I have to thank you Roland, sad to see you move away from the channel, but these videos will always remain excellent
That Raycevick cameo was incredible. He delivered that monologue perfectly. Also, thanks for letting me be a part of the video (Mustafa.) The wait was worth it.
Bungie never lost the idea the player character is a mindless killing machine. Destiny's Guardians do the same Uldren calls them "infant Godlings with coloring book morality" so there is a theme in both games
Yep, is another one of those things that carried on with Destiny, with the addition of the Guardians also being greedy af when it comes to loot. Some entities even taking advantage of it, like Riven (and by extension Savathun).
9:40 *Blood 1 music starts up* Hold on, is that...? No! It couldn't be! *excited gasp* Is that who I think it is?! Hell yeah! 9:57 *Teleports to the Marathon 1 level "Bob B-Q"* A familiar voice: "Oh, hey Civvie!"
Absolutely stupendous work mate. This really, really felt like the closing of the Marathon saga so many years later. These documentaries really felt like the much needed closure, and the touch of finishing with the story of the cyborg and player isnjust insane. The brilliancy in the interpertation of the story is an amazing work. It feels like I am closing the book in the Marathon lore, and as a long time player, as much as I wish there was more, this just made me wish they never re-touch it and leave it as is. May Greg carry the full knowledge with him like the marine carried Durandal’s core. Thanks!
TL;DR the Security Officer is a paracausal being because, on a metatextual level, good games require a good bit of player agency. I think the relatively recent and super fourth-wall-breaking lore additions in Destiny 2 Shadowkeep (book: Unveiling) can help shed some light on the end screen here. The infinite pattern Dura-Thoth speaks of closely resembles the "game of flowers" the Gardener and the Winnower play in Destiny 2. Keep in mind that these two figures represent absolute Dark and Light, the Gardener being the beginning of all and the Winnower, the end. Their "game of flowers" is just another name for Conway's Game of Life, also known as cellular automata. The rules laid out in the lore Destiny 2 lore card "The Flower Game" are as follows: "These are the rules of a game. Let it be played upon an infinite two-dimensional grid of flowers. Rule One. A living flower with less than two living neighbors is cut off. It dies. Rule Two. A living flower with two or three living neighbors is connected. It lives. Rule Three. A living flower with more than three living neighbors is starved and overcrowded. It dies. Rule Four. A dead flower with exactly three living neighbors is reborn. It springs back to life. The only play permitted in the game is the arrangement of the initial flowers." Plug any starting play into any cellular automata simulator, and you'll quickly understand what is meant by the "infinite pattern". In the Destiny franchise, causality and paracausality are the two degrees of existence in the universe. Causal beings follow the philosophy of predestination. They have a set path, though some (like Dura-Thoth or the Vex Collective) have a bit more maneuverability within causal confines. Paracausal beings, however, create their own path, free of predestination. They forge their own destiny, you could say. In the "Unveiling" lore book, it's revealed that the Gardener added a fifth rule to the game, one that would allow her to directly interfere with the game after the initial play has been made. This is the first instance of paracausality in the Destiny universe. I think the Marathon Infinity end screen is getting at the same point. The Security Officer is destiny. He exists outside the predictable confines of cellular automata - the infinite pattern - and outside the reach of even an omniscient, time-bending being like Dura-Thoth. The Security Officer is paracausal and paracausality, introducing his own rules to the infinite pattern to ensure his decisive victory, no matter the odds. My interpretation of this essentially boils down to this: you're the player. This was made for you. This universe, this violence, this invincible avatar is yours and it has no set script. We (the developers) start the game of flowers and create our own infinite patterns (game worlds) for you to defy. Have fun! Your point about the game shipping with dev tools really drives the point home, too. They said "Here's the rules, and here's the tools. Knock yourselves out."
Excellent write up and follows in line from what I saw on Mandalore's review of Marathon Infinity. Adding to this, however, I have my own intepretation on why Infinity played out the way it did. Simply put, the way images at the start of every chapter and naming aren't coincidental, but actual depictionsn the Player Character's situation and line of thought. The Prologue starts at the end of Marathon 2. Modern games have a certain goal(s) that need to be achieved in order to win, and in Marathon's case its not dying. Reflecting to the PC, he is trapped in an unescapable situation that being the literal death of existence itself, and the Prologue artwork reflects this as we see him struggling and grasping or reality's very fabric. However, as you put it, the PC is a paracausal being; an individual of pure will. In that very moment, with the force of the universe in a state of critical if not catatonic, the sheer force of will of the player manifests into a power to displace himself into other parellel realities in order to escape death. This leads to the events of Marathon. The PC is most probably unaware at first as to the displacement as his own conscious mind can't comprehend this, but as the game progresses we see him devolve and then reconstitute through the title of every chapter, reaching zentith in the Dream World (in reality a bubble to protect him) where he begins to understand the nature of the powers at work. From here, I conclude that the end of Marathon Infinity is our player finally taming his willpower and allowing himself to finally embrace death. Whether unfortunate or not, Durandal's remark of us being a manifestation of Destiny could imply that we are forver trapped in a cycle of undying born out of -again- sheer will. Why? Because we simply cannot be 'dead'.
Mmmmmmm only if they did it right. I don't want them to butcher it in the same way 343i butchered Halo by changing up the formula. Honestly the only things I would want them to do is update the graphics, maybe change up some of the more annoying levels, and possibly get voice acting for the terminals. Beyond that, keep everything else the way it is.
@@jaykelley103 when did halo have rpg mechanics? unless you're talking about Destiny in which case the RPG mechanics aren't the problems the fact that the game is just bad and has a billion DLCs that are mandatory to purchase and can be removed from the game entirely on a whim.
Great work! I think the dream sequence terminals have more to do with the security officer's progression through his personal case rampancy, and how he's trying to understand the nature of freedom and what it means to him. Considering the chapter titles in this game are Despair, Rage and Envy, and the stages of rampancy are Melancholy, Anger and Jealousy, it would make sense that every time he says "I did this and I could have stopped it" and all of its variations, he's expressing the emotions he's feeling during his version of a machine's mid life crisis. I never thought about him going back to the first timeline, but I like it. I could definitely get behind that.
What's your support for the idea that the white-text messages (eg at the end of the first level) are from the combined Durandal/Thoth entity? My interpretation, supported by the end screen in which Durandal seems to acknowledge that the player is more powerful than Durandal could imagine, is that these messages are part of the dreamscape. Either the player is talking to his subconcious, or perhaps communing with the jjarro technology parts of his brain. (See the excellent analysis of the battleroid phenomena in your M1 video, and the "You" page on the marathon story site.) This interpretation seems to color your portrayal of the rest of the timeline hopping. Around 12:30 you say that the security officer making decisions is out of character, but I think it's actually character *development*, as the security officer is begining to make good use of his powers. He helps Durandal and the Humans in M2, which gets a bad ending. So he takes the most obvious opposite course of action, helping Tycho and the Pfhor against Durandal and the Humans. This also leads to a bad ending. When he "returns" to the pfhor timeline as you put it, he's actually exploring timelines with more nuance. What you dismiss as "hokey bullshit" is the most important part of the security officer's story: learning to use his superpower. Besides that nitpick, though, I want to say that I love your video series. You managed to condense an incredibly convoluted 25 years of story into some very concise and well-supported videos, without missing any of the important details. Well done.
I applaud that you are so willing to go against what has basically been accepted as the truth in the Marathon community for thirty years (that there are 7 timelines).
Wow... I made a few submissions to the Marathon Story page when I was in high school. This storyline is so good and timeless. Infinity must have been a huge project for you to explain.
So I've watched all these videos now and I'm incredibly impressed. Somehow they managed to create a Sci-Fi masterpiece including time travel, complex alien politics including entire cultures and mythologies, lovecraftian entities, complex and interesting characters. I had no idea this game even existed until recently and with all these hidden bizarre terminals and philosophical musings it comes off as the video game version of House of Leaves (especially with how meta it gets). Thank you for these videos, also great to hear a cameo from Civvie.
Glad to see you back. Videos on MechWarrior Online, Living Legends and MechWarrior 5 would be great. Something on MechCommander series would be excellent too.
ngl when I experienced this game as a kid I just kinda rolled with it (“so Durandal’s being Durandal and, uh… I’m being sent all over by him, I guess?”), so I’m happy to have a bit of clarity after all these years
I was just watching all three of these videos as audio and had to stop when I was really getting into the story and theories and just yelled "THATS CIVVIE!!" Lmao. Great videos for great games.
I wouldn't say the word "Destiny" has been ruined. Its lore is pretty epic too, with some themes mirroring Marathon's. The bit about the garden sounds like a very prototypical form of the Gardener and Winnower. Destiny has a lot of really cool lore, though it's all told through text books you have to collect and just like in Marathon, you can (and many players do) play just the shooty bits without sitting down for hours to read all of it.
I was listening to your videos in background while I was playing some Battlefield 1 multi, and I was wondering where you are. Good to have you back dude.
Why am I only now just discovering you and your videos? I have played the Trilogy to death since my childhood as well as all the good community scenarios. Thanks for breaking it down for everyone else, better than I ever could!
I keep wanting to replay this batshit insane finale to the series, but the level design in the Marathon games can be downright vomitous at times - especially when tight corridors and finite oxygen are involved.
Infinity can be cruel. I think they realized it was too hard during development so a bunch of levels that should be in vaccuum aren't, and it ends up being pretty easy once you get past Post Naval Trauma.
@@peppermillers8361 Yeah, I recently replayed it. It wasn't that bad. That being said, I do still think Infinity's level design can be pretty shitty at times.
So here is another theory: At 1:36 the historical text of S`phit talks about Pthia being killed by W'rkncacnter, and Yrro who "in great anger" threw W'rkncacnter into the sun. Later at 30:18 we learn of an unnamed being of a great heroic power who dreams of "her" - his lover/rival. The Jjarro technology used in creation of the Security Officer is literally a fragment of Yrro - a being of a heroic power that has been filled with great anger born from the loss of his lover/rival - Pthia. And thus controlled by this predetermined path of force-of-nature-like anger Security Officer destroys anything in his path. It is his destiny.
I would have to disagree with your interpretation of the timeline for two main reasons: firstly, I don’t think Marathon Infinity rewrites or overrides Marathon 2: Durandal, but simply is another timeline branching off from the end of the first game, especially when the final screen of Marathon 2 outlines events taking place after Durandal. Secondly the three timeline theory doesn’t take into account that in the Tycho timelines key events repeat, which in my opinion points to the Tycho timelines being timelines that branch off from one another, not something unheard of in sci-fi. Regardless, you did a great job and it’s interesting to hear alternative interpretations of infinity.
Thank you for this. Marathon trilogy was among the most formatively important games I played when I was a kid. I used to make custom maps to M2 and all other kinds of custom content as well.
So, he's burdened with countless collections of memories that aren't his while forced to fight incredibly harrowing, extremely perilous, rabidly intense hell-storms of battles that would cause a normal human being's veins to pop with the exuberant amount of adrenaline that would be coursing through them. And he has to do this again, and again, and again without end, throughout the infinity of time and space, constantly at full speed. Sounds like a MARATHON to me.
this series changed my entire outlook when it comes to both sci-fi and gaming. since i'm crazy about both i'd say that these games has changed my life. i do however feel that marathon is stronger than both it's sequels.
Jesus fuck, man. You hear about musicians & artists capable of doing some surreal works or pieces that could have been influenced by drug-induced experiences, but writers are something else. Whole new level with them.
I actually have no idea how you understood and deconstructed all 3 games to THIS degree. Lol wow. Well done. I've been playing this game since I was like 3 (born in '97 🤙🏻) and have never had a this good of an idea of what was really happening (except Marathon 2 cause I played it the most) .
Great videos. I especially liked how the characters all sounded like they'd comfortably fit in Dharma and Greg. May have to give these games another try.
I actually like Eternal and consider it the best mod of the bunch, but there are indeed a few bad levels from at least the mid point onward, especially the entire bad future plank of Episode 4 and most of Episode 5 in general. (less so in 1.2) The boring gameplay part is something I personally saw more of in Rubicon as a lot of its maps are really obtuse mazes, it's unplayable on Total Carnage once you hit a certain point (can't remember which level) and you need a flowchart to figure out which level takes you to which plank or keeps you on the current one. Eternal's planks are simply "whoops, this is the bad ending but we'll just treat it as a whole bunch of secret levels, a'right?" that loop you back to the branch point so you don't miss the good path. There's also the reveal of the Jjaro (hint: Forthencho from Halo's Forerunner saga is one) which is a bad twist that is only forgiven a little when you realise that it's just the _original_ Jjaro, and the current ones are basically the goal of the Covenant's religion given form. The good twist just after this is a shield world that doubles as a Halo ring, filled with Kamalas from Fran Bow (as of 1.2, older builds used unedited PID monsters) complete with 343 Guilty Spark himself. (Albeit unnamed as Marathon hasn't been connected to Halo since partway through Halo 1's development)
I remember reading that bungie tried to make subtle but deniable connections between marathon and halo until they backpedaled during the development for 3 when they realized if they tied the 2 together too much Microsoft could try to keep marathon when bungie split with them
Jason Hill So _that's_ why they cut the Marathon links entirely. Despite playing Halo first and Marathon only in 2012, all this time and I never knew that. Hopefully they give up with Destiny and go back to Marathon for an actual Marathon 4 and full 3D total remakes of the first 3 plus Eternal. I just hope they don't pull a Destiny 2 with them though, which is something I fear since the lootbox curse.
In the Rubicon Salinger Incident plank, the only level that is unplayable on Total Carnage is the secret level The White Room, and you can safely skip that level anyway since the weapon you get as a reward (the carpet mortar) is basically useless in Total Carnage anyway. I haven't played the Pfhor plank yet though, mostly because I find the level design (sludge + vines) exceedingly ugly and annoying.
@@kimkimpa5150 A lot of the later ones in the Pfhor plank ground my gears so you aren't missing much especially as I kept ping-ponging between the two planks. I liked the swamps but the maps still had the maze curse. There's even a late game level (I think the last pfhor plank one?) where you have cess pits full of pfhor shit. The lizard poo is so caustic that it slowly drains both your shields and your health until you have no shields and 1 HP left, leaving you vulnerable to pretty much everything. The deeper sewage pools are completely black under the surface meaning you cannot see a single thing, plus I vaguely recall it's possible to get trapped under if you try. The Pfhor plank final boss against their ruling class sub species even one ups the Nihilanth in Half Life: instead of a hard but fun fetus boss, we have several very hard and _not_ fun evil human egg cell bosses at once.
@@lionocyborg6030 Yeah, I remember those tar pits from the first time I played Rubicon back in the day. I used the level skip feature to get to the last level to see what it looked like. Dropped down one of the pits and it was pitch black, couldn't get out :P
Back in 2020, catching up on marathon prior to Halo:infinite got me really excited. Watching this after completing Halo:infinite also gets me down but also sorta excited only because of the crazy places they MIGHT take halo if they try to do timeline/time travel multiverse stuff. Be weird to just call it Halo:infinite and all they did was blow up the INFINITY in first 5min just to do nothing with that ending. Otherwise Chief is just insane and hallucinating the events of halo infinite since the end of halo 3. Thank you for the videos dude!
I just realized how similar system shock and marathon are. Hell, shodan is basically a female version of Tycho, who masquerades his instability as something born from justice. As they torment and destroy their Human charges, both Tycho and Shodan forget that they each have the option to simply LEAVE and find their separate peace. Perhaps the greatest AI of all time is simply a pertulant asshole.
Just wanted to say as a fan of your earlier work, thank you for explaining the story of this game. Ill admit i was utterly lost playing this the first time as the plot is so complex and i was only 15. I know the sort of work that goes into making these sorts of videos as im a (much) smaller creator myself. I look forward to your future videos.
This was flipping awesome I love your examination of the marathon series and I thought that was really cool I heard some voices that I actually recognized too like City and racvik and it was neat that you recruited people from your server to voicemail or fans and participants really thorough in depth I like the theorizing and speculation as well and a really cool retrospective on the history of the franchise that Bungie made so many years ago
@@niccolomachiavelli6565 I've looked through it years ago, but I don't want to use a walkthrough while playing, or have to memorize everything. There are definitely a few secrets throughout the series that I'm aware of but haven't remembered to check out when I'm actually playing.
@@jabberw0k812 most marathon levels don't even have secrets,and those that have,have like 2-3 at most.it's not like Doom wads,with their 10-12,or Arcane Dimension's 50. i even took the time to write down every single secret about every single retro fps i play.it's very helpful.never on first play-throught tho.
I played the game three times to get capture for this video (first time footage was corrupted, second time the sound was messed up, third time's a charm). First time I hit EVERY switch to do it properly but the other two times, including the footage in this video, I just used the secret.
Man, I just finished replaying the trilogy. This time I did while watching your videos, and they gave me a new level of appreciation for the series. They're so fun I've rewatched them like 5 times each already. Great job! Now I wish Civvie and Raycevick give their own take on Marathon.
Thanks for finishing this, Roland, I think I'm going to go back and re-watch the previous marathon videos then this one to at least try and make sense of what you've presented to us, since fuck knows I can't interpret the story myself the way you managed to
I was already loving the video but I just about cacked my pants when I heard Civvie. Thank you very much for bringing some more eyes to this old series; I adore Marathon Infinity.
this game was a trip. Nice job summing it up. I played it before Durandal so the reminiscing level designs did not come to me as reiterating or time jumping or whatnot.
Pathways into darkness, pathways OUT OF DARKNESS (destiny), infinity, 2, marathons, halo series..... This has been an absurd search throughout everything after mandalore made that review and god damn at the end of it all - I understood jack shit
Roland thank you. Thank you for your amazing channel and thank you for doing this video. Thank you for your extremely well written and informative videos. And thank you for getting me to go back and try out the old mech warrior games. Marathon infinity is one of my all time favourite games and I try to get other people to play the series for this exact reason. Its great to see someone with as much enthusiasm for this game and its series as a whole. Keep them coming. The dead walk again.... Blake out
Recently finished the Marathon trilogy and not having found even a percent of all the secrets, this video was very helpful to me. My interpretation of 3's story was hazy and very different. Little miffed by how off I was and that I couldn't piece it together myself, but I wasn't about to get lost in all those levels all over again. thanks for the spoonfeed mane
Nice video, man!.👍 Another die hard "Marathon Trilogy" fan here.😁 No wonder i could not understand Marathon Infinity's story since it was so confusing. Some things just didn't make sense to me. I still remember Durandal's last message on the final level of Marathon 2, telling the player that we would be visiting "another ruined world" with him aboard the "Khfiva" or "Rozinante" as he rechristened but later finding out that Marathon Infinity had me starting out aboard a space station when i first played it. It just felt confusing to me...confund delivery, perhaps?😉😁. I would also find it strange that you were working with aliens in some levels and fighting against BOBs in others. Things just didn't seem right. It wouldn't be until so many years later that i would finally know the tru7h, after searching for an article about the game on Wikipedia out of curiosity...curioser and curioser😎. But after reading the article, i was simply left puzzled even though i finally knew what really happened in the game in regards to the events and story. But it's nice to see a video on TH-cam explaining why things seemed kind of weird for some of the fans. But after so many years i still feel sad for Leela, after the second game we just don't see her again...stuck in the Phor homeworld, partially dissasembled and seeking succor from a tall, dark and handsome cyborg with big guns. I'm disappointed that Bungie just didn't give us a chance to visit the planet, kick Phor butt and rescue her. Leela was so loyal and tried so hard; she deserved better.😔
Thank you for completing your analysis of the trilogy! Would you ever consider doing the same for some of the more popular (or favorite) Alephone scenarios? Either way, thank you for making this game clear, I played it a decade ago and there was so much I didn't understand.
I just realized Marathon 1 might have hinted at the multiple timelines at the end. The final terminal has Leela explain that Durandal had left the Tau Ceti system 20 minutes ago onboard the Pfhor ship. BUT Marathon 2 starts with the explanation Durandal beamed the Security Officer onto his ship before he left. So while Bungie likely retconned Marathon's ending, it fits the multiple timelines set up in Infinity.
@@UnrealPerson Halo does have plenty of magic, but I recommend reading up on the events of I Love Bees. This Marathon summary reminded me a lot of how that was written. Seriously, OG Bungie was really well-read.
Just finished this. Trying to learn more about Marathon after the game announcement today. You made a comment about Bungie in the future ruining Destiny. I know that it has its issues, but the Lore is just as if not deeper from what I've seen here, but watching this has actually given me even more insight into Destiny's lore as there are more than just easter eggs, I actually could see that the games are actually connected.
Considering the "eternal warrior" motif, wasn't there a some kind of reference that Pathways into darkness' main character was the same entity as security officer?
Do you think Halo Infinite being called that way is a Marathon reference? Considering it's supposed to be the game that brings back the Bungy style of Halo games, and Marathon is what they did before Halo, something tells me it's what Microsoft went for with that one.
Individu λambda Not to mention Doom Eternal as well, for being a sequel to the Marathon esque Doom 4, the continuation of the original games' story, the harder difficulty, and the similarities both games have to Sonic 2006: Marathon Eternal is practically Silver's episode up to 11 with Hathor as Mephiles, plus the time travel in general, insane elder gods, the Jjaro shield world levels resembling Kingdom Valley with a stormy ocean in the sky and _the world fucking ends in the climax._ Doom Eternal's Sonic 2006 similarities are the Earth levels looking and playing even more like Crisis City and Flame Core than Doom 2 before it, the Night Sentinel world looks like Kingdom Valley, Cultist Base looks like White Acropolis by way of Halo 4's Midnight level, the giant gore nest's portal looks like the sun when it's about to pull Earth into it (actually a Sonic Forces thing), the portals in general look like the time holes Mephiles uses throughout the game prior to the last story, the praetor tokens look like Soleanna silver coins/medals, the Barons of Hell now look like the Iblis Golems, the Marauder boss is no use until you work out how to do it right (Though unlike Silver, he _does not_ become piss easy when you do) and the antagonist is effectively God. (Though not the our True God like Lord Solaris is, no offense to the other ones) On a side note, Bioshock Infinite is a clear Marathon reference in themes and title, Ken Levine apparently being a fan himself considering Tau Ceti f as opposed to Tau Ceti e in System Shock 2, as well as the Von Braun's warp drive effectively being a cybernetic junction, considering what SHODAN does with it.
When I was One, I had just begun. When I was Two, I was nearly new. When I was Three I was hardly me. When I was Four, I was not much more. When I was Five, I was just alive. But now I am Six, I'm as clever as clever, So I think I'll be six now for ever and ever. - A. A Milne
But on a less flippant note, thanks for taking the time and effort to make these videos, they've been a wonderful reminder of all my time rummaging through the marathon story pages way back in the yesteryears.
Well, you argue it is the new AI that is moving the Security Officer through the timelines. Some people argue it is the W'rkncacnter chaotic presence that does so. Though The end of the game, Durandel acknolwedging you as "Destiny", sounds like it is you who has control of this, somehow the Officer, being a cyborg I guess, is controlling time by his own will. He is teleporting from timeline to timeline until finding one where he can win.
So I just spent a lot of time thinking about this. I think there are only two timelines. Marathon 1 -> Tycho Arch. Infinity Durandal Arch -> Marathon 2 -> Infinity First level.
8:13 read the fine print. says that durandal/thoth was reaching back through time. or more likely are outside time. like they are stuck there. you think Cortona is on her way to godhood(the end of time), or is likely there and sending messages telepathically to master chief to stop end her suffering?
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
Man, I gotta play this series in full.
Waiting on “So I’ve finally played...Marathon”
An awesome cameo, cool to hear you here too X)
You gotta make it popular again dude! Love your vids
Would love to see. :D
Immediately struck me as curious hearing your voice reading over the Hero. Its a great trilogy.
I think the Security Officer has a lot more complexity than that, actually.
In the dream terminals, he seems to display some sort of guilt or weariness for the atrocities he has committed. Note that the only actual choices he made in the series were compassionate.
1. Choosing to stay and fight for the resistance even when he has a way out
2. Choosing to aid the BoBs and betray Tycho.
You fail to realize that all of the carnage he carried out was either for a greater good or was basically him being held at gunpoint.
Yeah, I prefer this too because I feel the idea that the Security Officer just happily is fine with killing the Humans to be very dumb and degrades the story and the player character.
I still find it a little lame/dumb that he has to do this regardless due to it happening in the successful Infinity timeline (and even more AFTER the level where you betray Tycho to save them) all for Tfear and all that, but it at least helps for most of it the idea that he doesn't want to.
Man old bungi had the best writers, people who knew history and could make cryptic references
Now,after his acting,Civvie should definitely do a series about Marathon...
Im asking for a Pro marathon!
Civvie should also cover the mods including Eternal and Rubicon as they're the closest to Marathon 4 & 5 we currently have. There's also Tempus Irae as well. Civvie also needs to do Pathways into Darkness, though he may have to do the A1 version so he can play it on Windows without emulating.
botond Nabradi I'm yet to do a TC run on it, but I've played on at least Normal and Major Damage. W'rkncacnter, the developer did a TC tips walkthrough I can check out.
first video of "the examined life (of gaming" since 5 months.
top commentary: civvie should make a video about this. : D
@@moogyx He was in the video,so it would be logical.
"SPACE!"
- Commisar Civvie
When are we getting a Civvie 11 Live Action adaptation starring Tim Curry as Civvie 11?
Your timeline... timeline makes a lot more sense than what I've previously heard, good stuff.
I had always interpreted it not as the merged Durandal-Thoth AI bouncing you around timelines, but you the player somehow tapping into the Jjaro tech that was built into you - which the ending clearly says your creators didn't fully understand - so that you could find a timeline where the W'rkncacnter was not released. But actually looking at it now, the Dream stuff always carried the infinity logo which is a merger of the Thoth and Durandal ones so this does make some sense.
I also don't think the plot was that complicated. And there are *five* timelines in the game, not three, and interestingly *none* of them are tied to Marathon 2. Marathon 2 is separate, Infinity is several other alternative timelines together.
You start in the prologue in an alternative timeline to Marathon 2 (we know it is alternative because Durandal specifically says that you won't have time to explore Lh'owon - but we did that in M2). Presumably this is a timeline where Durandal was late arriving or the Pfhor battle group was already there for some reason, he fought them, beat them badly enough that they decided to blow up the star to spite him.
Despair then has you working for Tycho, and IMO this timeline is actually a direct continuation of Marathon, where Durandal left you behind, allowing you to be captured and enslaved by the Pfhor. Tycho turns on the Pfhor, goes after Durandal, cripples Durandal's ship and when the team Durandal sent to the surface manages to activate Thoth and summon the S'phr'kr (and the Jjaro station) eventually decides to blow up the star to destroy everything. Failed timeline. This leads to a dream sequence where you can either jump to the timeline's conclusion (Aie Mak Sicur, where you remain Tycho's slave, possibly killing the Pfhor that were sent to the Jjaro station to try and contain what was unleashed - either way, the Pfhor battle group is annihilated by the W'rkncacnter, bad end) or you can skip over it, either way you jump timeline to Rage. What actually happens in this timeline IMO is that the Cyborg continues to be enslaved by Tycho and used as his tool right up until the end. So basically, you determine that if you stick with Tycho, everything goes bad.
Rage starts with you exploring a timeline where Tycho gets beaten much earlier because Durandal brings you out of stasis faster and starts sending you against Pfhor installations. Meanwhile he sends a separate group of commandos down to explore Lh'owon, and they activate Thoth, but too early and Thoth acts as it was designed to, not actually helping and not summoning the S'pht'kr. Failed timeline. You are sent to Waterloo Waterpark but it's an alternate timeline,, this doesn't lead to M2 at all - by the time you are headed there Durandal's team has already activated Thoth. You jump into the dream sequence to jump again, either follow to the new timeline or see how this one ends (Carroll Street Station, which talks about K'lia having been destroyed so presumably Thoth didn't summon the S'pht'kr so you can't activate the station, but also the terminal here uses the Infinity logo suggesting that maybe in this timeline, Durandal and Thoth still merged, but the style of the message is very Thoth so perhaps Durandal was the one absorbed in the end rather than the reverse).
So you jump back to a variation of Despair, back to the original Marathon 1 timeline again (IMO). This time, either Tycho's control over you is not absolute, or you make a conscious decision to follow a different path. You teleport onto Durandal's ship, as you did in Despair before the first Dream, but you change sides, and explore a different path, where you side with Durandal again, which causes Tycho to try and vent you but Durandal intervenes. In this timeline, you loose Tycho's hold over Durandal's ship, but Tycho sends a special team to physically capture Durandal (just as in Marathon 2). You prevent this, but Tycho then convinces the player that this is a bad idea because it will allow Durandal to infect Thoth as well, and so you instead agree to destroy Durandal completely. Failed timeline. You can continue to the final conclusion of the timeline (You're Wormfood, Dude, in which the station is not activated, the nova destroys the system and wipes out everyone, and the question of whether this also releases the W'rkncacnter is moot).
Then we jump to Envy and look at a fourth timeline, winding back to the second timeline of Rage, only this time when you destroyed Durandal, he copied himself into your brain. At this point the main Pfhor battle group arrives and they recapture Tycho, and you as well. Tycho manages to open your prison door and then letting you do the rest, and you do so, freeing him in the process. But he leaves you high and dry and you are forced into working for Tfear (I don't think that the Pfhor knew you had Durandal's code inside you, rather that they were trying to recondition you to work for them, and failing) and when given a choice of doing what he says or dying you end up rounding up the remaining humans on Lh'owon so they can serve as Pfhor slaves. But the Pfhor science team in the mean time has accidentally begun awakening Thoth, who grabs you to assist in finishing the process. You do so, and this allows Durandal to jump from you into Thoth as Thoth fully activates, merging the two (the white Thoth symbol merges with the green Marathon logo to create the Infinity symbol). Tycho is very mad about this, sends you off to be killed by an army, you beat it and the reborn Durandal-Thoth calls in K'lia, unleashing the S'pht'kr. Tfear takes over the Jjaro station, but you take it back and activate it (Aye Mak Sicur). The Jjaro station basically creates a black hole and sucks the energy of the blast inside along with the W'rkncacnter. Good end.
This tells us what the conditions are for avoiding the bad ending - the S'pht'kr must be summoned and must activate the station. For that to happen, Thoth must be activated to do that, but it will not summon them if Durandal is around. If the star is blown up before they are summoned, it leads to a bad end. If Durandal does not survive at the end, either as himself or as the dominant part of a merger with Thoth, you also lose.
Note that *none* of these timelines correspond to Marathon 2, but theoretically Marathon 2 actually could be the 'perfect' timeline. Durandal is presumed destroyed (but was actually just laying low), Thoth is activated, K'lia folds back in, the S'pht'kr arrive, Durandal reactivates having transferred himself and taken over their flagship, and destroys Tycho. The Pfhor activate the Trih Xeem but everything would be set up on that timeline for the S'pht'kr to just activate the Jjaro station without you. M2 is also interestingly as mentioned a contradiction of the end of Marathon 1, because Durandal took you with him instead of leaving you on the Marathon - as mentioned further up it's most likely that M1's timeline is probably Despair.
so marathon 2 is also another timeline?
“Its not complicated”- proceeds to put 9 paragraphs.
Seems like the jarring transition to the sec officer helping Durandal is necessary, if we believe it was his own decision. The terminals throughout the entire series are essentially a method of receiving orders from someone else. The glaring omission of any order in this case is what communicates the player-character's agency.
Mandalore brought up a fascinating possibility/idea in his review of Bungies Pathways into Darkness video, a game perdating the Marathon series including the Jarro, possibly the W'rkncacnter. He throws out the idea that the oldier you play in that game might be the Security officer, having been but in stasis after being in contact with alien/otherwordly forces. The US would not have someone with that much exposure get a normal burial. It stand to reason that the solo soldier, up against alien forces on his own might be a spiffy tool to keep around for the future. A bit of a stretch, but looking at Infinity I wouldn't dismiss it outright.
We really need more Marathon content on TH-cam, preferably very much like this.
And now we will wait until next year for another new video
Probably more like 2 years.
I think Greg Kirkpatrick is a precursor to Yoko Taro. Many themes, the philosophical, literary & psychological references, the meta-narrative, some of the writing in the Marathon trilogy and the usage of alternate timelines in Infinity remind me of the Drakengard & NieR saga.
The only other first person shooter that ever gave me those things is EYE Divine Cybermancy, by Streum On.
i fucking hate yoko taros shit, its so depressing eugh
@@heftymagic4814 It's not depressing, it's just a complicated, tragic plot. I think the "message" he wants to convey, without the pretence of giving any lecture, is that the world and humanity are complicated. It's up to you to decide what to do.
I would draw more similarities to pre-Nintendo Tetsuya Takahashi, especially with Xenogears.
Very happy to see you get around to this, infinity is truely a legendary title that easily remains one of the all time greats, and for that, I have to thank you Roland, sad to see you move away from the channel, but these videos will always remain excellent
That Raycevick cameo was incredible. He delivered that monologue perfectly.
Also, thanks for letting me be a part of the video (Mustafa.) The wait was worth it.
I think he's really fit in with the voice of The Security Officer himself
The Marathon trilogy is an epic piece of literary art masked as 3D shooters.
the girl that did tycho did a trully amazing interpretation jesus christ
Bungie never lost the idea the player character is a mindless killing machine. Destiny's Guardians do the same Uldren calls them "infant Godlings with coloring book morality" so there is a theme in both games
Yep, is another one of those things that carried on with Destiny, with the addition of the Guardians also being greedy af when it comes to loot. Some entities even taking advantage of it, like Riven (and by extension Savathun).
Bungie often reuses recurring themes in all of their games. Even MasterChief at the end of the day was just a “killing machine” (until H4, of course).
@@davida1229 "Halo is not a _cudgel_ , you barbarian!"
9:40 *Blood 1 music starts up* Hold on, is that...? No! It couldn't be! *excited gasp* Is that who I think it is?! Hell yeah!
9:57 *Teleports to the Marathon 1 level "Bob B-Q"* A familiar voice: "Oh, hey Civvie!"
I would love to see a Pro Marathon series.
There is no alternate dimension where Civvie _isn't_ haunted by Cancer Mouse.
Absolutely stupendous work mate. This really, really felt like the closing of the Marathon saga so many years later.
These documentaries really felt like the much needed closure, and the touch of finishing with the story of the cyborg and player isnjust insane. The brilliancy in the interpertation of the story is an amazing work. It feels like I am closing the book in the Marathon lore, and as a long time player, as much as I wish there was more, this just made me wish they never re-touch it and leave it as is.
May Greg carry the full knowledge with him like the marine carried Durandal’s core.
Thanks!
Did I just hear Civve do his best "Sppppppace" line read ever?
TL;DR the Security Officer is a paracausal being because, on a metatextual level, good games require a good bit of player agency.
I think the relatively recent and super fourth-wall-breaking lore additions in Destiny 2 Shadowkeep (book: Unveiling) can help shed some light on the end screen here.
The infinite pattern Dura-Thoth speaks of closely resembles the "game of flowers" the Gardener and the Winnower play in Destiny 2. Keep in mind that these two figures represent absolute Dark and Light, the Gardener being the beginning of all and the Winnower, the end.
Their "game of flowers" is just another name for Conway's Game of Life, also known as cellular automata. The rules laid out in the lore Destiny 2 lore card "The Flower Game" are as follows:
"These are the rules of a game. Let it be played upon an infinite two-dimensional grid of flowers.
Rule One. A living flower with less than two living neighbors is cut off. It dies.
Rule Two. A living flower with two or three living neighbors is connected. It lives.
Rule Three. A living flower with more than three living neighbors is starved and overcrowded. It dies.
Rule Four. A dead flower with exactly three living neighbors is reborn. It springs back to life.
The only play permitted in the game is the arrangement of the initial flowers."
Plug any starting play into any cellular automata simulator, and you'll quickly understand what is meant by the "infinite pattern".
In the Destiny franchise, causality and paracausality are the two degrees of existence in the universe. Causal beings follow the philosophy of predestination. They have a set path, though some (like Dura-Thoth or the Vex Collective) have a bit more maneuverability within causal confines. Paracausal beings, however, create their own path, free of predestination. They forge their own destiny, you could say.
In the "Unveiling" lore book, it's revealed that the Gardener added a fifth rule to the game, one that would allow her to directly interfere with the game after the initial play has been made. This is the first instance of paracausality in the Destiny universe.
I think the Marathon Infinity end screen is getting at the same point. The Security Officer is destiny. He exists outside the predictable confines of cellular automata - the infinite pattern - and outside the reach of even an omniscient, time-bending being like Dura-Thoth. The Security Officer is paracausal and paracausality, introducing his own rules to the infinite pattern to ensure his decisive victory, no matter the odds.
My interpretation of this essentially boils down to this: you're the player. This was made for you. This universe, this violence, this invincible avatar is yours and it has no set script. We (the developers) start the game of flowers and create our own infinite patterns (game worlds) for you to defy. Have fun!
Your point about the game shipping with dev tools really drives the point home, too. They said "Here's the rules, and here's the tools. Knock yourselves out."
Excellent write up and follows in line from what I saw on Mandalore's review of Marathon Infinity.
Adding to this, however, I have my own intepretation on why Infinity played out the way it did. Simply put, the way images at the start of every chapter and naming aren't coincidental, but actual depictionsn the Player Character's situation and line of thought.
The Prologue starts at the end of Marathon 2. Modern games have a certain goal(s) that need to be achieved in order to win, and in Marathon's case its not dying. Reflecting to the PC, he is trapped in an unescapable situation that being the literal death of existence itself, and the Prologue artwork reflects this as we see him struggling and grasping or reality's very fabric.
However, as you put it, the PC is a paracausal being; an individual of pure will. In that very moment, with the force of the universe in a state of critical if not catatonic, the sheer force of will of the player manifests into a power to displace himself into other parellel realities in order to escape death.
This leads to the events of Marathon. The PC is most probably unaware at first as to the displacement as his own conscious mind can't comprehend this, but as the game progresses we see him devolve and then reconstitute through the title of every chapter, reaching zentith in the Dream World (in reality a bubble to protect him) where he begins to understand the nature of the powers at work.
From here, I conclude that the end of Marathon Infinity is our player finally taming his willpower and allowing himself to finally embrace death. Whether unfortunate or not, Durandal's remark of us being a manifestation of Destiny could imply that we are forver trapped in a cycle of undying born out of -again- sheer will. Why? Because we simply cannot be 'dead'.
God I wish bungie would remake the marathon games in modern form. That would be pretty awesome
Mmmmmmm only if they did it right. I don't want them to butcher it in the same way 343i butchered Halo by changing up the formula.
Honestly the only things I would want them to do is update the graphics, maybe change up some of the more annoying levels, and possibly get voice acting for the terminals. Beyond that, keep everything else the way it is.
It's essentially Halo's predecessor
Same here. Also pathways. Imagine what they could do with modern mechanics such as upgrading the character which makes sense because you are a cyborg.
@@drakescakes5629 shitty rpg mechanics are the reason that company sucks now.
@@jaykelley103 when did halo have rpg mechanics? unless you're talking about Destiny in which case the RPG mechanics aren't the problems the fact that the game is just bad and has a billion DLCs that are mandatory to purchase and can be removed from the game entirely on a whim.
Oh, that is one channel I can strike off the "Dead" List
Old TH-camrs never die, they just get really fucking lazy.
@@TheExaminedLifeofGaming Or they get busy with "other" channels ;)
Great work!
I think the dream sequence terminals have more to do with the security officer's progression through his personal case rampancy, and how he's trying to understand the nature of freedom and what it means to him. Considering the chapter titles in this game are Despair, Rage and Envy, and the stages of rampancy are Melancholy, Anger and Jealousy, it would make sense that every time he says "I did this and I could have stopped it" and all of its variations, he's expressing the emotions he's feeling during his version of a machine's mid life crisis.
I never thought about him going back to the first timeline, but I like it. I could definitely get behind that.
What's your support for the idea that the white-text messages (eg at the end of the first level) are from the combined Durandal/Thoth entity? My interpretation, supported by the end screen in which Durandal seems to acknowledge that the player is more powerful than Durandal could imagine, is that these messages are part of the dreamscape. Either the player is talking to his subconcious, or perhaps communing with the jjarro technology parts of his brain. (See the excellent analysis of the battleroid phenomena in your M1 video, and the "You" page on the marathon story site.)
This interpretation seems to color your portrayal of the rest of the timeline hopping. Around 12:30 you say that the security officer making decisions is out of character, but I think it's actually character *development*, as the security officer is begining to make good use of his powers. He helps Durandal and the Humans in M2, which gets a bad ending. So he takes the most obvious opposite course of action, helping Tycho and the Pfhor against Durandal and the Humans. This also leads to a bad ending. When he "returns" to the pfhor timeline as you put it, he's actually exploring timelines with more nuance. What you dismiss as "hokey bullshit" is the most important part of the security officer's story: learning to use his superpower.
Besides that nitpick, though, I want to say that I love your video series. You managed to condense an incredibly convoluted 25 years of story into some very concise and well-supported videos, without missing any of the important details. Well done.
I applaud that you are so willing to go against what has basically been accepted as the truth in the Marathon community for thirty years (that there are 7 timelines).
Wow... I made a few submissions to the Marathon Story page when I was in high school.
This storyline is so good and timeless. Infinity must have been a huge project for you to explain.
So I've watched all these videos now and I'm incredibly impressed. Somehow they managed to create a Sci-Fi masterpiece including time travel, complex alien politics including entire cultures and mythologies, lovecraftian entities, complex and interesting characters. I had no idea this game even existed until recently and with all these hidden bizarre terminals and philosophical musings it comes off as the video game version of House of Leaves (especially with how meta it gets).
Thank you for these videos, also great to hear a cameo from Civvie.
Glad to see you back. Videos on MechWarrior Online, Living Legends and MechWarrior 5 would be great. Something on MechCommander series would be excellent too.
Expect it by 2030
ngl when I experienced this game as a kid I just kinda rolled with it (“so Durandal’s being Durandal and, uh… I’m being sent all over by him, I guess?”), so I’m happy to have a bit of clarity after all these years
Despair
Rage
Envy
Aye
Mak
Sicur
Dreams... very clever.
I was just watching all three of these videos as audio and had to stop when I was really getting into the story and theories and just yelled "THATS CIVVIE!!"
Lmao. Great videos for great games.
Oh good lord the Hangar 96 terminal. That is NUTS
I wouldn't say the word "Destiny" has been ruined. Its lore is pretty epic too, with some themes mirroring Marathon's. The bit about the garden sounds like a very prototypical form of the Gardener and Winnower. Destiny has a lot of really cool lore, though it's all told through text books you have to collect and just like in Marathon, you can (and many players do) play just the shooty bits without sitting down for hours to read all of it.
I was listening to your videos in background while I was playing some Battlefield 1 multi, and I was wondering where you are. Good to have you back dude.
Why am I only now just discovering you and your videos? I have played the Trilogy to death since my childhood as well as all the good community scenarios. Thanks for breaking it down for everyone else, better than I ever could!
Pretty harsh on Eternal there, yeesh
I keep wanting to replay this batshit insane finale to the series, but the level design in the Marathon games can be downright vomitous at times - especially when tight corridors and finite oxygen are involved.
Infinity can be cruel. I think they realized it was too hard during development so a bunch of levels that should be in vaccuum aren't, and it ends up being pretty easy once you get past Post Naval Trauma.
@@TheExaminedLifeofGaming Ha! I knew you would mention that level. It's such a pain in the neck.
Marathon turns out to be really easy for the most part when you replay it. The first time is always the most rough experience.
@@peppermillers8361 Yeah, I recently replayed it. It wasn't that bad. That being said, I do still think Infinity's level design can be pretty shitty at times.
@@EekChocolate oh, it's definitely very rough and punishing at times, but thankfully the last stretch of levels is pretty good.
So here is another theory:
At 1:36 the historical text of S`phit talks about Pthia being killed by W'rkncacnter, and Yrro who "in great anger" threw W'rkncacnter into the sun. Later at 30:18 we learn of an unnamed being of a great heroic power who dreams of "her" - his lover/rival.
The Jjarro technology used in creation of the Security Officer is literally a fragment of Yrro - a being of a heroic power that has been filled with great anger born from the loss of his lover/rival - Pthia. And thus controlled by this predetermined path of force-of-nature-like anger Security Officer destroys anything in his path. It is his destiny.
I tend to think of Rubicon as a direct sequel to Infinity, using the same strategies that Infinity used as a sequel to Marathon 2.
I would have to disagree with your interpretation of the timeline for two main reasons: firstly, I don’t think Marathon Infinity rewrites or overrides Marathon 2: Durandal, but simply is another timeline branching off from the end of the first game, especially when the final screen of Marathon 2 outlines events taking place after Durandal. Secondly the three timeline theory doesn’t take into account that in the Tycho timelines key events repeat, which in my opinion points to the Tycho timelines being timelines that branch off from one another, not something unheard of in sci-fi. Regardless, you did a great job and it’s interesting to hear alternative interpretations of infinity.
Thank you for this. Marathon trilogy was among the most formatively important games I played when I was a kid. I used to make custom maps to M2 and all other kinds of custom content as well.
So, he's burdened with countless collections of memories that aren't his while forced to fight incredibly harrowing, extremely perilous, rabidly intense hell-storms of battles that would cause a normal human being's veins to pop with the exuberant amount of adrenaline that would be coursing through them. And he has to do this again, and again, and again without end, throughout the infinity of time and space, constantly at full speed.
Sounds like a MARATHON to me.
Glad to see this analysis complete. I also appreciate you letting me do some VO, Hop! Love your content here and on TFBTV!
Funny thing is if you play Destiny the game all but confirms you're a reincarntation/spritual succesor of the security officer
this series changed my entire outlook when it comes to both sci-fi and gaming. since i'm crazy about both i'd say that these games has changed my life. i do however feel that marathon is stronger than both it's sequels.
Jesus fuck, man. You hear about musicians & artists capable of doing some surreal works or pieces that could have been influenced by drug-induced experiences, but writers are something else. Whole new level with them.
I have zero attachment to this series but I love your videos and am just glad you’re back.
I actually have no idea how you understood and deconstructed all 3 games to THIS degree. Lol wow. Well done. I've been playing this game since I was like 3 (born in '97 🤙🏻) and have never had a this good of an idea of what was really happening (except Marathon 2 cause I played it the most) .
Hamish Sinclair's Marathon Story Page helps a lot to make heads and tails of most of the debacle.
Great videos. I especially liked how the characters all sounded like they'd comfortably fit in Dharma and Greg. May have to give these games another try.
I actually like Eternal and consider it the best mod of the bunch, but there are indeed a few bad levels from at least the mid point onward, especially the entire bad future plank of Episode 4 and most of Episode 5 in general. (less so in 1.2) The boring gameplay part is something I personally saw more of in Rubicon as a lot of its maps are really obtuse mazes, it's unplayable on Total Carnage once you hit a certain point (can't remember which level) and you need a flowchart to figure out which level takes you to which plank or keeps you on the current one. Eternal's planks are simply "whoops, this is the bad ending but we'll just treat it as a whole bunch of secret levels, a'right?" that loop you back to the branch point so you don't miss the good path.
There's also the reveal of the Jjaro (hint: Forthencho from Halo's Forerunner saga is one) which is a bad twist that is only forgiven a little when you realise that it's just the _original_ Jjaro, and the current ones are basically the goal of the Covenant's religion given form. The good twist just after this is a shield world that doubles as a Halo ring, filled with Kamalas from Fran Bow (as of 1.2, older builds used unedited PID monsters) complete with 343 Guilty Spark himself. (Albeit unnamed as Marathon hasn't been connected to Halo since partway through Halo 1's development)
I remember reading that bungie tried to make subtle but deniable connections between marathon and halo until they backpedaled during the development for 3 when they realized if they tied the 2 together too much Microsoft could try to keep marathon when bungie split with them
Jason Hill So _that's_ why they cut the Marathon links entirely. Despite playing Halo first and Marathon only in 2012, all this time and I never knew that. Hopefully they give up with Destiny and go back to Marathon for an actual Marathon 4 and full 3D total remakes of the first 3 plus Eternal. I just hope they don't pull a Destiny 2 with them though, which is something I fear since the lootbox curse.
In the Rubicon Salinger Incident plank, the only level that is unplayable on Total Carnage is the secret level The White Room, and you can safely skip that level anyway since the weapon you get as a reward (the carpet mortar) is basically useless in Total Carnage anyway. I haven't played the Pfhor plank yet though, mostly because I find the level design (sludge + vines) exceedingly ugly and annoying.
@@kimkimpa5150 A lot of the later ones in the Pfhor plank ground my gears so you aren't missing much especially as I kept ping-ponging between the two planks. I liked the swamps but the maps still had the maze curse. There's even a late game level (I think the last pfhor plank one?) where you have cess pits full of pfhor shit. The lizard poo is so caustic that it slowly drains both your shields and your health until you have no shields and 1 HP left, leaving you vulnerable to pretty much everything.
The deeper sewage pools are completely black under the surface meaning you cannot see a single thing, plus I vaguely recall it's possible to get trapped under if you try. The Pfhor plank final boss against their ruling class sub species even one ups the Nihilanth in Half Life: instead of a hard but fun fetus boss, we have several very hard and _not_ fun evil human egg cell bosses at once.
@@lionocyborg6030 Yeah, I remember those tar pits from the first time I played Rubicon back in the day. I used the level skip feature to get to the last level to see what it looked like. Dropped down one of the pits and it was pitch black, couldn't get out :P
Back in 2020, catching up on marathon prior to Halo:infinite got me really excited. Watching this after completing Halo:infinite also gets me down but also sorta excited only because of the crazy places they MIGHT take halo if they try to do timeline/time travel multiverse stuff. Be weird to just call it Halo:infinite and all they did was blow up the INFINITY in first 5min just to do nothing with that ending. Otherwise Chief is just insane and hallucinating the events of halo infinite since the end of halo 3. Thank you for the videos dude!
Finally. I started watching the last two videos just two days ago thinking that you would never upload again. What are the odds
0:33
I'm sorry, I don't mean to be a dick, but absolutely no one has a "favourite Deus Ex: Human Revolution" ending.
“First you activate the pfhor scan…”
I lost my pfhor scan when I was a baby
So a possibly android protagonist has these dreams called "electric sheep"...hmm.
I just realized how similar system shock and marathon are. Hell, shodan is basically a female version of Tycho, who masquerades his instability as something born from justice. As they torment and destroy their Human charges, both Tycho and Shodan forget that they each have the option to simply LEAVE and find their separate peace.
Perhaps the greatest AI of all time is simply a pertulant asshole.
Just wanted to say as a fan of your earlier work, thank you for explaining the story of this game. Ill admit i was utterly lost playing this the first time as the plot is so complex and i was only 15. I know the sort of work that goes into making these sorts of videos as im a (much) smaller creator myself. I look forward to your future videos.
This was flipping awesome I love your examination of the marathon series and I thought that was really cool I heard some voices that I actually recognized too like City and racvik and it was neat that you recruited people from your server to voicemail or fans and participants really thorough in depth I like the theorizing and speculation as well and a really cool retrospective on the history of the franchise that Bungie made so many years ago
also,in "a converted level in italy" there is a secret switch IN THE FIRST ROOM that activates all the switches for you.
I have to remember this for my next playthrough.
@@jabberw0k812 The "marathon spoiler guide" has every secret for every level for every game in the series...even some scenarios
@@niccolomachiavelli6565 I've looked through it years ago, but I don't want to use a walkthrough while playing, or have to memorize everything. There are definitely a few secrets throughout the series that I'm aware of but haven't remembered to check out when I'm actually playing.
@@jabberw0k812 most marathon levels don't even have secrets,and those that have,have like 2-3 at most.it's not like Doom wads,with their 10-12,or Arcane Dimension's 50. i even took the time to write down every single secret about every single retro fps i play.it's very helpful.never on first play-throught tho.
I played the game three times to get capture for this video (first time footage was corrupted, second time the sound was messed up, third time's a charm). First time I hit EVERY switch to do it properly but the other two times, including the footage in this video, I just used the secret.
Yes the wait is over
Man, I just finished replaying the trilogy. This time I did while watching your videos, and they gave me a new level of appreciation for the series. They're so fun I've rewatched them like 5 times each already. Great job! Now I wish Civvie and Raycevick give their own take on Marathon.
Thanks for finishing this, Roland, I think I'm going to go back and re-watch the previous marathon videos then this one to at least try and make sense of what you've presented to us, since fuck knows I can't interpret the story myself the way you managed to
Great work! Truly great work! Funny to hear Civvie.
9:42 WHOA HO HO, I DID NOT EXPECT CIVVIE TO MAKE AN APPEARANCE HERE
Now this is infinity.
I was already loving the video but I just about cacked my pants when I heard Civvie.
Thank you very much for bringing some more eyes to this old series; I adore Marathon Infinity.
I came here after Mandalore's video on this game, and while two videos have different ideas about what is going on, both are rather beautiful.
I agree with Mandalore's video more, but this video makes valid points too.
@@mynameisozymandias7150 I agree, I think both are interesting perspectives.
Amazing, thorough review and insight
I played this game as a kid and didn’t understand what I was doing in the story at all, but I remember having a great time playing it
this game was a trip. Nice job summing it up. I played it before Durandal so the reminiscing level designs did not come to me as reiterating or time jumping or whatnot.
Pathways into darkness, pathways OUT OF DARKNESS (destiny), infinity, 2, marathons, halo series.....
This has been an absurd search throughout everything after mandalore made that review and god damn at the end of it all - I understood jack shit
Is that the voice of Civvie11 I hear??? Love every second of it... aaannnndddd as I'm typing this I'm hearing his Red Alert 3 quote... Truly epic! lol
Roland thank you. Thank you for your amazing channel and thank you for doing this video. Thank you for your extremely well written and informative videos. And thank you for getting me to go back and try out the old mech warrior games. Marathon infinity is one of my all time favourite games and I try to get other people to play the series for this exact reason. Its great to see someone with as much enthusiasm for this game and its series as a whole. Keep them coming. The dead walk again....
Blake out
No wonder I didn't understand this game as a kid.
Same 😔
Oh hey Civvie's here.
Either way, incredible video as usual!
Recently finished the Marathon trilogy and not having found even a percent of all the secrets, this video was very helpful to me. My interpretation of 3's story was hazy and very different. Little miffed by how off I was and that I couldn't piece it together myself, but I wasn't about to get lost in all those levels all over again.
thanks for the spoonfeed mane
Nice video, man!.👍 Another die hard "Marathon Trilogy" fan here.😁
No wonder i could not understand Marathon Infinity's story since it was so confusing. Some things just didn't make sense to me.
I still remember Durandal's last message on the final level of Marathon 2, telling the player that we would be visiting "another ruined world" with him aboard the "Khfiva" or "Rozinante" as he rechristened but later finding out that Marathon Infinity had me starting out aboard a space station when i first played it.
It just felt confusing to me...confund delivery, perhaps?😉😁. I would also find it strange that you were working with aliens in some levels and fighting against BOBs in others.
Things just didn't seem right. It wouldn't be until so many years later that i would finally know the tru7h, after searching for an article about the game on Wikipedia out of curiosity...curioser and curioser😎.
But after reading the article, i was simply left puzzled even though i finally knew what really happened in the game in regards to the events and story.
But it's nice to see a video on TH-cam explaining why things seemed kind of weird for some of the fans.
But after so many years i still feel sad for Leela, after the second game we just don't see her again...stuck in the Phor homeworld, partially dissasembled and seeking succor from a tall, dark and handsome cyborg with big guns.
I'm disappointed that Bungie just didn't give us a chance to visit the planet, kick Phor butt and rescue her.
Leela was so loyal and tried so hard; she deserved better.😔
“Prepare to drink vacuum fool” is the hardest line I swear
COD Zombies: my story is the most insane ever put in a videogame.
Marathon Infinity: ha ha, and then I saw the universe go boom!
13 year old me was not equipped to understand this!
Thanks, I could never finish Marathon Infinity.
"Based and Kinopilled"
Thank you for completing your analysis of the trilogy! Would you ever consider doing the same for some of the more popular (or favorite) Alephone scenarios? Either way, thank you for making this game clear, I played it a decade ago and there was so much I didn't understand.
Is that Civvie 11? Hell yes!!
Missed opportunity of having t’fear be a boss battle
I just realized Marathon 1 might have hinted at the multiple timelines at the end. The final terminal has Leela explain that Durandal had left the Tau Ceti system 20 minutes ago onboard the Pfhor ship. BUT Marathon 2 starts with the explanation Durandal beamed the Security Officer onto his ship before he left. So while Bungie likely retconned Marathon's ending, it fits the multiple timelines set up in Infinity.
Good lord this story is insane and brilliant.
We need more games like this damnit
I suppose neither _Halo_ nor _Destiny_ managed to capture the magic.
@@UnrealPerson Halo does have plenty of magic, but I recommend reading up on the events of I Love Bees. This Marathon summary reminded me a lot of how that was written.
Seriously, OG Bungie was really well-read.
@@UnrealPerson the lore of Destiny has some insane shit in there lol
Good to see this video series get competed.
Just finished this. Trying to learn more about Marathon after the game announcement today. You made a comment about Bungie in the future ruining Destiny. I know that it has its issues, but the Lore is just as if not deeper from what I've seen here, but watching this has actually given me even more insight into Destiny's lore as there are more than just easter eggs, I actually could see that the games are actually connected.
Considering the "eternal warrior" motif, wasn't there a some kind of reference that Pathways into darkness' main character was the same entity as security officer?
Do you think Halo Infinite being called that way is a Marathon reference? Considering it's supposed to be the game that brings back the Bungy style of Halo games, and Marathon is what they did before Halo, something tells me it's what Microsoft went for with that one.
Individu λambda Not to mention Doom Eternal as well, for being a sequel to the Marathon esque Doom 4, the continuation of the original games' story, the harder difficulty, and the similarities both games have to Sonic 2006:
Marathon Eternal is practically Silver's episode up to 11 with Hathor as Mephiles, plus the time travel in general, insane elder gods, the Jjaro shield world levels resembling Kingdom Valley with a stormy ocean in the sky and _the world fucking ends in the climax._
Doom Eternal's Sonic 2006 similarities are the Earth levels looking and playing even more like Crisis City and Flame Core than Doom 2 before it, the Night Sentinel world looks like Kingdom Valley, Cultist Base looks like White Acropolis by way of Halo 4's Midnight level, the giant gore nest's portal looks like the sun when it's about to pull Earth into it (actually a Sonic Forces thing), the portals in general look like the time holes Mephiles uses throughout the game prior to the last story, the praetor tokens look like Soleanna silver coins/medals, the Barons of Hell now look like the Iblis Golems, the Marauder boss is no use until you work out how to do it right (Though unlike Silver, he _does not_ become piss easy when you do) and the antagonist is effectively God. (Though not the our True God like Lord Solaris is, no offense to the other ones)
On a side note, Bioshock Infinite is a clear Marathon reference in themes and title, Ken Levine apparently being a fan himself considering Tau Ceti f as opposed to Tau Ceti e in System Shock 2, as well as the Von Braun's warp drive effectively being a cybernetic junction, considering what SHODAN does with it.
Love this series, thank you for capturing the lore.
When I was One,
I had just begun.
When I was Two,
I was nearly new.
When I was Three
I was hardly me.
When I was Four,
I was not much more.
When I was Five,
I was just alive.
But now I am Six,
I'm as clever as clever,
So I think I'll be six now for ever and ever.
- A. A Milne
But on a less flippant note, thanks for taking the time and effort to make these videos, they've been a wonderful reminder of all my time rummaging through the marathon story pages way back in the yesteryears.
"Oh hi Civvie!"
Well, you argue it is the new AI that is moving the Security Officer through the timelines. Some people argue it is the W'rkncacnter chaotic presence that does so. Though The end of the game, Durandel acknolwedging you as "Destiny", sounds like it is you who has control of this, somehow the Officer, being a cyborg I guess, is controlling time by his own will. He is teleporting from timeline to timeline until finding one where he can win.
DUDE!!!
I've missed seeing new stuff from you man.
Your voice sounds different.
Hope you're doing good and keeping safe.
So I just spent a lot of time thinking about this. I think there are only two timelines. Marathon 1 -> Tycho Arch. Infinity Durandal Arch -> Marathon 2 -> Infinity First level.
8:13 read the fine print. says that durandal/thoth was reaching back through time. or more likely are outside time. like they are stuck there. you think Cortona is on her way to godhood(the end of time), or is likely there and sending messages telepathically to master chief to stop end her suffering?
Is anyone ever going to make a game with a story is UTTERLY BANANAS as Infinity? I love it.
You need to cover Pathways Into Darkness which is the Prequel.