I have a former client who works as a dental receptionist. At the clinic, they have a form where the clients fill out which medications they are on. She said over 80% of the ladies over 40 are on anxiety, anti-depressants and sleeping pills or all of the above. I don’t think people realize how medicated our society is, and what the effects of that look like!
@@GeeGee19this is very inspiring, as I’m currently in a similar situation to where you were before. Thank you for confirming it’s indeed possible to do this.
Yes, it's definitely worrisome. I take psychiatric medication myself, but I consider myself to be unusually objective in spite of having had a serious mood disorder for much of my life. Some patients will not find such objectivity, and might lose track of the very powerful effects of these medications. It can end in great tragedy, as in the case being discussed. Americans generally underestimate the power and inherent dangers in pharmaceutical products, since we are largely desensitized to the use of drugs in general, and also since we tend very much to reach for relief from practically any complaint we might ever have.
I can’t tell you how badly I needed this video doc. I work in the mental health field myself and I’ve had a therapist and psychiatrist both for many years but as of this year I haven’t really spoken to my therapist- and my mother died this year, so I feel that lately I am relying on my medications, but it is exactly like a tire leaking air. We manage, but it’s not improving anything in the situation. I think I’m going to call my therapist in the morning. Thanks doc 🙏
@@Nick-b7b9s I’m not a counselor or therapist at this time, however that’s not true. Many many of my colleagues see see their psychiatrists and therapists on a regular basis to keep themselves healthy as we treat others.
Here is the big problem: People have no problem getting an appointment with a doctor who is taught to deal with our struggles with meds. They will give me a list of 12 therapists. I will call ALL of them in desperate need to talk. ONE will call me back 3 weeks later to say they are all booked up. Thats a reaccuring problem I have experienced.
Ditto that. I was given two pages of therapists, around 30 names. Some were disconnected numbers, some never answered, some had a voicemail but never called back, and one even turned out to be on the sex offender registry. (I checked them all). Not one was even available, much less suitable or appropriate. I managed on my own, also a medicine man was very helpful. The list of therapists given by my doctor: useless.
Yes! I just got over post-partum depression that lasted about 2 1/2 years. I was screened shortly after my daughter was born and found to have post-partum depression. They gave me a list of psychiatrist/therapists. I called all of them. Some numbers disconnected, others I left a message but never heard back. I dealt with my PPD with my normal depression and anxiety meds. It was the hardest thing I've ever dealt with. I was lucky that I had a support system.
Same. I even called up a huge, world-renowned university near me...one that boasts a "wide range of mental health services for patients of all ages," only to be told that I could get on a waiting list, but it would likely be *THREE MONTHS* before an initial visit.
The major problem is that counseling is not financially viable for most people. Many people have medications covered or partly covered by insurance/medicaid...fewer people have counseling covered. As well, in this crazy world where people work long hours/have to hold two jobs/are struggling to parent and keep up, carving out time for oneself can be stigmatized. People worry about appearing selfish if they spend time and money (assuming they have those things) on keeping themselves well. Thus, pills. Often cheap, always convenient, and requires no effort. Little stigma because you take them in private. It's an inferior solution but it sure seems easir in the short term!
No stigma at all, because most of the country appears to be medicated, and some of my friends on meds even try to get others to give it a whirl. People brag about it sometimes.
I disagree, I think a lot of people don't want to do therapy, I think a lot of people just want to talk about their problems. Actually working on how to let go of anger and pain is different than talk about it. My sister did therapy years ago, and she told me she stopped going because the therapist was to critical. When she stopped going she told me the therapist said "so I'll be banished from your world like everyone else." And yeah, that is how my sister works, she pushes people away and is shocked she doesn't have friends, and doesn't have people she can depend on. A lot of people want the easy fix of pills even if they don't work.
I cannot imagine what her husband experienced within minutes of nonchalantly returning home with dinner for his family. He walked into unimaginable horror. They'll likely never understand what caused this exactly. If it was the medications and she becomes clearer thinking, how will she ever come to terms with her own actions. It's just a horrible situation.
She was wrong. They simply don't work for everyone. They told me gabapentin (very low grade med) would work great for alcohol withdrawal and anxiety, after I stopped drinking and went thru withdrawals by myself, I took gabapentin for anxiety, appropriately-apart from forgetting on my weekend, and then I got withdrawals from it lol. That clearly did not work for me and put me off of anxiety meds for life. Specifically that can make an already mentally ill person totally miserable and hopeless. I don't even want to imagine what Xanax would have done. Obviously never stop a med suddenly unless your DR tells you specifically, I'm literally only saying they don't work for some personality types and they do not work with some people's brain chemistry.
I'm going to piss people off but I do think women tend to go for an easy fix, ie women wanting Ozempic to loose weight because dieting is too hard. Drugs will just mask the problems, and doesn't fix them. And I don't really think anyone will be perfect, really it's just a matter of dealing with the past, being in a good place mentally, and moving on. But that does take a lot of work, and it's easier to pop a pill.
I saw a video by Dr Josef where a woman went to a psychiatrist after her husband committed suicide (an adverse reaction from psych meds). She said to the dr, "My husband killed himself. Aren't I supposed to feel sad and grieve?" And the dr said, "yes, but you don't have to." Disturbing beyond belief.
I was in the Massachusetts system as a child. They overdosed me on medication so many times. I was on a cocktail. When I finally refused them, my brain defrosted, and my symptoms went away. The medicine made me sick and crazy.
I was in group homes in Delaware as a teenager for a couple years. I hated the side effects of the medication they gave me and I didnt need them ! I would go on medication strikes and refuse to take them. The counselors wrote me up every time which led to being grounded and such. I adored my counselors there , but they had protocol they had to follow . The system is messed up for sure.
I had severe pnd after the birth of my daughter. It was the combination of medication and therepy that brought me back from the edge. My daughter now has her mum present and healthy. I no longer take medication, but I am still doing therepy. Both are responsible for my recovery but finding a psychologist i connected with was the game changer
@awkwardautistic Of course they do. I am speaking of my lived experience and not of anyone else's. I had an allergic reaction to epilim that swelled my liver to the size of a football. It took months for my liver levels to come down. Others who take this have no issues. It was the combination of therepy and medication responsible for my recovery. Therepy was the game changer.
Dr Grande! I love your channel so much. When people ask what I watch on TH-cam you’re the first one I suggest. It’s like tiny news segments but interesting and unbiased, only speculating u know.
One of the many things that I appreciate about your channel is how you manage to break down complex human struggles into the core issues. The number of medications prescribed her is absolutely mind boggling.
My husband wigged out on Ambien. Luckily he was in the hospital for a heart valve problem but he ripped out his IVs and took off all his clothes and thought he was kidnapped and being held for ransom. The evening nurse told me the next day that it’s pretty common for Ambien to wreck havoc on people. I hallucinate with codeine and think people are trying to break into my house. My mom had a horrible reaction to Haldol. Yikes! A friend of mine woke up in the psych ward after taking codeine. People think these things are safe because they are prescribed.
Totally agree. I knew a guy who attempted suicide right after starting a new med. He had no symptoms of depression, let alone any suicidal ideation prior to this. The Rx had nothing to do with psychiatric treatment. Those suicide warnings you see on some Rx fine print is definitely there for a reason.
@@maryd253 I have never personally known anyone who had such an an experience. I know plenty of people who take such medications without incident. They ARE definitely safe to try. If a person flips out the first time they try it, then logically they wouldn’t take it again. What’s the problem?
@@Watchoutforsnakez LOL! This sounds like the disclaimer at the end of one of those commercials, _"If you're allergic to (something you've never taken before), please consult your physician."_
I had horrible postpartum depression that I never even thought possible. I never wanted to hurt my children but the despair I felt was unbelievable. I had it with my second child, as well. I figured that because I was more informed maybe it wouldn’t be as severe and it was. To this day I am on Celexa and feel it was a life saver.
Me too. In fact my children saved my life because every time I felt like I didn’t want to go on, I thought about my children and hung in there until I saw my doctor and got medicated and found a mental therapist. My needing to take care of my children made me stick it out. I don’t have any postpartum with my first two but my third baby just wouldn’t birth. I was 2 weeks overdue and tried the intravenous drug to induce but it didn’t work 3 X. Every time I didn’t go into labor and walk out of the labor/delivery area and walk past the glass window with all the new babies in there I would fall apart. I think that is what started it. My first two came like clockwork-using Lamaz breathing. I didn’t have postpartum psychosis though. Only depression. I think this woman had something deeper going on besides baby-blues. So sad.
I too had bad PPD and had to switch from Zoloft to Lexapro. We were on the right track, but it needed just a little more oomph. I got Welbutrin as an add-on and it was a lifesaver for me. I had a "not click" with a counselor at the place I was going to and their scheduling and hours was so horrible that I'd go weeks or even months between sessions so that definitely didn't help. I still get normal stress and anxiety but the s* depression I was suffering disappeared, only ever rearing its ugly head once due to autistic burnout (we just had a lot of environmental stressors that are going away now). I too never felt the urge to hurt my baby girl but I sure as sh* wanted to take myself out (and actually tried once). That was such a dark phase of my life and I do have this fear in the back of my mind that I might wake up feeling that horrible again sometimes.
I did too! Not to be confused with PP psychosis. I never thought to harm my children!! I had 4 children and with each one I had it. With the first 2 in the 1980’s I didn’t know what was happening to me. But for my last 2, PPD was well known so I understood better what was going on to get help for myself. So important to keep these diseases at the forfront so that new mothers can get help asap. And not allow it to get worse and turn into Psychosis.
Dr Grande, this was an excellent video. Your analysis was so informative. I have major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder. My strategy of treatment is a combination of therapy and medication. Learning how to overcome cognitive distortions has been extremely helpful, in addition to use of meds.
I see this case in the same way as I have always seen the Andrea Yates case. I hope that Lindsey continues to get the treatment she needs both physically and mentally and I pray for her and her husband. It is a tragedy for them both and may the sweet babes be happy in Heaven! I believe that they are. We cannot blame those who are mentally unwell for their actions especially when the drugs given to ease the complaints make the beneficiary homicidal. Having recently experienced severe suicidal ideation after coming off a long term medication far too quickly I can attest that drugs can go wrong and DO cause more damage more than we are aware! Great assessment Dr G and thank you.
I lived through post partum depression and I would not wish it on anyone. It is the scariest, most isolating hopeless despair beyond imagination. Fortunately, I reached out to my OB who quickly prescribed me medication which was too high of a dose and threw me into the worst anxiety/panic I’ve ever dealt with in my entire life. I am lucky enough to have had the access to a Center for Perinatal Mood and Anxiety Disorders where I received the correct dosage medication which was low dose titrated slowly and therapy for one year at no cost. I do not know how I would have survived PPD without it. My biggest recommendation would be to connect with a place that specializes in PPD and perinatal mood disorders to receive the best treatment tailored to you.
I made a decision long ago to seek alternative means to deal with my personal problems instead of the route of endless medications. I'm so glad I did. It was a rough road, but virtually all my problems once referred to as mental disabilities have been overcome.
@@firstactionhero that’s great. It’s everyone’s goal to be at peace and not suffering through emotional problems. But, perhaps only one medication would have been a solution. Not everyone takes “endless medication”. And not everyone can pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
@@Watchoutforsnakezthat’s true. It’s also okay to do both. Meds and life style changes. Exercise, clean diet, sleep, Yoga, journaling, are helpful but if you’re in a deep hole you don’t have the desire to do any of that.
@@Petruskinhap972I agree. I struggled with depression as a teen. Getting out of bed to use the bathroom required a pep talk. Getting out of bed to take a shower required a crowbar, well practically. It took a decade to feel even sort of normal. I actually did take anti-depressants but not initially for years. When I did though it was like going from black and white to color, it was that much of a difference. And I did sort of wonder how much of my childhood was spent depressed when I could have been happier as I do not recall ever feeling so much happier in my childhood. I know drugs and kids are controversial but I feel they really could have helped me much earlier. Ah well, so goes life. 🤷🏻♀️
@@KraftyKreatoragreed! I’m on a low dose SSRI and I feel like myself but the best version of me. I’m not stuck in my head, I describe it as “putting my overthinking on mute” it’s changed my life and I am incredibly happy on my one medication.
1.5 million subscibers and less than 10% viewership on this video. Mind you, a very important video about the risks associated with mental health medications. You’ve providede valid points, pertinent data, relevant examples, and delivered in a very aesthetic way. I find it hard to believe that people are deciding not to watch your videos. Thank you for everything you do. We appreciate it.
They are more commonly prescribed together for middle aged patient especially women as don't forget we are in menopause too. We have to come to grips with the fact that our reproductive years are over whilst our husband's are still verile and why so many middle aged men hook up with younger women as mine did too.
@@jaqueitch it’s generally predictable. I was on those. I wasn’t a psycho. This lady wasn’t getting the level of help she needed. Her psychiatrist went to the gun fight with a knife.
Ambien is a benzo. Benzodiazepines are a family of drugs like klonopin, Xanax, Valium, ambien ect. Antidepressants are SSRI’s. Antidepressants and benzodiazepines don’t usually cause any serious side effects while taken together and it’s actually quite common to be prescribed for example Zoloft and klonopin at the same time (a benzo and a SSRI). And her psychiatrist would be responsible for knowing what meds can be taken together. She should have been having regular check ins w her psychiatrist about her medications as is required when under prescribed meds.
I was a victim of overprescribing. Lamictal, seroquel, paxil, propanolol, benadryl, and abilify all at once. I had a very terrible reaction to the abilify and developed sever tardive dyskinesia. My tremors were so bad I couldn't even raise a glass to my face to drink out of it. It ruined my life for 3 years. And at the end of it, I was able to work through my issues without any medication whatsoever. Some of the side effects of these medications can be so extreme, prescription medication should be a last resort, not a first. Even the seroquel just turns you into a zombie. I remember I would do anything possible to get out of whatever responsibilities I had because I was so tired all the time. I couldn't even function. We have a long way to go in this industry.
Abilify didn't give me any tremors but it wreaked havoc on my blood sugar and made me super tired/apathetic to everything. I also gained a TON of weight on it. When I managed to trickle-wean myself off at last, I started dropping weight a lot faster (I was in a bariatric program at the time). I'm so glad I got off it. I don't miss it all and made sure that it was in the "no" column of my chart. I had to get gastric bypass to unstuck myself completely from the weight problem (though I must admit I had terrible eating habits that needed changing anyway). I hope your life is going better and that you're not going through any more medical circuses.
I'm very sorry that this happened to you. It would have been awful! I suffered a similar reaction after I was given Serenace, which in 1982 was given for nausea in Childbirth. I don't recall being nauseous, but I do remember how I felt after being taken to the post partum ward and feeling my neck go to the left and up without myself having any control over this. I remember waking up the following day with a nurse by my bedside who ran out to get a Doctor and him telling me to ensure that all my Doctors down the years must know that I was allergic to that drug and it caused an occulogyric crisis. I have cared for many elderly people as an RN who had suffered long-term problems due to the antipsychotic medications they had been placed on years earlier in mental health institutions, and I felt enormously sorry for them. I am aware of what the symptoms of TD are, and I'm sorry that you lost all those years being tired and unwell. I hope that your coming days are much better for you! Take care now. From country NSW Australia.
Prescription medication is a precious tool, and depending on the case it might be the last resort or the very first. The treatment of a mental illness is very complicated, since there are a lot of factors, biological, psychological and social involved. Some people will need only psychotherapy, others will also need a small dose of medication, others will take a ton of medication and still unfortunately with poor results. Expectations are also important. Up to which point are we ok with leaving a person without treatment? An elder person who lives alone in a horded house, and feels persecuted, a young adult who spends his years in a dark room, an other that has a severe depression.. people that are not a danger to the others but their own wellbeing is compromised and among their symptoms, one is that of denying there is a condition that needs to be treated. Shouldn't we as a modern, civilised society be morally obligated to treat them? On the other hand, there maybe a lack of access to the mental health professionals, of appropriate structures, or even a mismanagement from the part of the doctor or the whole system.
I've heard of abilify *messing* people up bad, I swear I've never heard of someone having a good experience with it, especially in tandem with other medications
I hope her husband can sue for malpractice and prevent such another incident ever happening again. 13 psychotropics in 4 months is beyond ridiculous, what a horrific preventable nightmare 😞
What I don’t understand is that many women are on all sorts of drug cocktails + postpartum depression and don’t go on to do something horrible like this. She’s an outlier for a reason, but why?
@@nicehorn5250She is also a nurse who understands meds and dosage. She was also able to plan to get her husband out of the house and to keep him out long enough to kill their three young children. When she woke up she asked if she needed a lawyer. If she was a mother who had been on street drugs or drunk, very few people would have any sympathy for her. Three young kids are dead. Her own kids. Yet everyone seems to be infantilizing this woman and turning her into the most important victim out of this horrible triple murder
@@nicehorn5250 ✨genetics✨ she was also previously looking into MFTHR genes, she was going to through these things all of a sudden, and was trying to find out why. I am extremely sensitive too SSRIS and the other category’s as well. I can’t tolerate them to the point that they give me an out of body experience. I have tried a plethora of them.
I hope that you are well, Dr. Grande. Praying you're in good health or that it improves. Your insight is appreciated, as it is always well informed with sources cited. Thanks for spending so much of your time with us here on TH-cam. Be well💚
I’m a psychiatrist who had severe postpartum depression; I responded to lexapro plus Wellbutrin; neither by itself but the combo helped; now days there is also a hormonal medication for PPD
Going to counseling was hands down the most empowering and important step of my life. It took years of going on and off but the life skills I learned are imbedded in me all of these years later ❤
It’s refreshing Dr G that you don’t believe in throwing meds at the problem without therapy. Since that new class of drugs on the market, many Doctors are quick to prescribe. But you are right, it takes time to find the correct dose or drug combination. In the meantime symptoms get worse. I needed a combination of therapy and drugs. It’s a very sad case. Perhaps one that could’ve been avoided?
Armchair autistic psychologist here. Take my opinion with a grain of salt since I've got a buttload of mental problems myself and take quite a bit of meds. But one thing that has jumped out to me a LOT in these cases is Ambien. I took it myself for a sleep study and I did NOT like it. Not only did it not really help me get to sleep, it gave me horrible and depressing dreams when I finally DID sleep. My mother took it at one time because her fibromyalgia kept her up because it hurt. She did all sorts of weird things and got up at all times of night to feed the stray cats or walk the dog (poor dog was sleeping, by the way) or go on a cleaning marathon (she was an anal housekeeper but she got waaay worse on this stuff). She was also mean as f* to me and my dad. When she finally got off that crap, she completely changed back into her normal self and I was SO grateful because I didn't have the "real" her for years. In a lot of child homicide cases, the drug Ambien seems to always or almost always be on the murderer's medication list. A lot of these people then try to off themselves (or at least it looks that way). I'm honestly concerned that they haven't taken it off the market yet. So many people allege that they've had loved ones take it and go completely off the rails. My husband had severe depression after he tried one to the point of s* thoughts so he drank a lot of water to try and flush it out of his blood and vowed to never touch the stuff again. That was honestly very scary for me. I spent all day with him trying to distract him and make sure he was okay. The next day, he was totally back to normal. It was just nuts. I have no idea why but it f*s with SO many people's behavior and brain chemistry. What do you guys think? @Todd Grande what do YOU think about Ambien specifically and the possible link to s*/h* behavior?
I struggle and am on several meds and have ambien available to me. For me, it is helpful. I don't take it often, but it helps me sleep and I wake up refreshed. Just another perspective (edited for misspelling)
I've taken ambien (off and on) since it hit the market in 2003(?) I believe it was. It's been a life saver. If someone is having such adverse reactions stopping the drug seems the route to go....especially if you have such an extreme reaction to a small initial dose (presumably) a 5mg script is what most docs will give you. Good luck getting a pharmacy to fill for anything stronger than 10mgs and rightly so. Ambien has zero effect on my mood other than elevating it because I'm getting sleep. As a bonus it seems to calm some of my severe nerve pain in my cervical spine.
Ambien is a good drug, saved my life. I couldn’t sleep for several days and lost touch with reality. Spiraling and panicked and got down to only 90 pounds, no clothes fit me and I was always terrified and walked for miles every day, just to cope. With ambien I was able to sleep four hours a night. Not great, but enough for my mental state to improve. Sleep is of course essential to everything
Sometimes sick mothers just need to have LONG breaks from children. If it’s PPOCD then clearly the treatment is to learn HOW to take time away from kids and then get them TONS of rest and QUIET! I was near death with PPOCD/PPD and one thing I longed for that is could feel better just by daydreaming about for a moment was rest. Quiet. No one bothering me for 1-2-3 days. It would have kept me out of psychosis where I ended up.
I used to think that women like her were monsters and postpartum psychosis was just an excuse. Until after I had my fourth baby at the age of 23 & I went through postpartum psychosis myself. I made it through and when I think back to that time it almost feels like a dream. Thankfully I had no urge to harm any of my children, but I easily could have. It’s terrifying how easily and how quickly I lost complete control of myself. I feel great sympathy for this woman.
My god, I took half an ambien from my dad and didn't go to sleep right away, and I started seeing everything in my room seem to start LUNGING at me aggressively in my vision. I tried to look at my phone and the app thumbnails were falling off of the screen. I hid under my covers after I turned off the light, convinced everything around me wanted to hurt me. Fuck that noise! 😂
Indeed! I took an ambien one time when I was on day 2 of false labor and 48 hours of no sleep. On the way home from the hospital, I was in the passenger seat and was just casually watching the road sway and loop and twirl around me. I looked at my husband and I was like “wow, you are a good driver, I can’t believe you can drive with the road moving all around!” He told me from that second he knew not to leave me alone until it wore off. He actually locked the bedroom door and put a child knob cover over it so I wouldn’t wake up and do who knows what 😳
I had post partum depression and my I made my husband hide all the knives, scissors, and take his guns to his brothers house because I was scared I would lose control of my body and hurt my baby. It’s to this day the most terrifying thing I have ever experienced. Her and her family are in my prayers ❤
i'm at a particularly high risk for post partum psychosis, and i literally have a safety plan already made for when i have children. i am that scared of it happening. i have had an episode before and i was completely non-violent, but you cannot predict what you will do during a break.
@ I was diagnosed with OCD shortly there after and I still suffer from it today unfortunately but it was initially diagnosed as post partum OCD and then later just OCD. I had kids fairly young I was 21 when I had my first and so it’s almost like post partum brought that already existing disorder to the surface.
I believe this video is one of your best (if not the best)videos you’ve produced. I’ve felt in my heart for years that I am Rx’d from my primary physician on any symptom. I’ve taken anti anxiety meds for years, Rx for insomnia however, I was never recommended counseling as to WHY …. I’ve told my husband repeatedly that I want off of all Rx’s because the insomnia Rx causes weight gain & zombie the following day. I will look into counseling & request them to look at my Rx list, see how we (counseling and primary physicians) can help me reach my goal. Thank you Dr.Grande 🙌🏻
Dr. Grande, I partially agree with your approach (counseling first medication second). There are instances in which counseling is futile without previous medication. Extreme anxiety disorder is a good example. As a patient, one cannot simply attend therapy and talk to someone with symptoms of such severity. Anyone who has experienced anxiety will understand this. Another example, as you well mentioned, is psychosis. There is simply too much at stake for the patient to wait for counseling to start taking effect.
I know medicines affect everybody differently, I used to take cyroquil and it knocked me on my butt. If I was taking that with Benadryl I would never be conscious. I currently take lamictal and Wellbutrin. I have bipolar 2 and seem to have very bad reactions to every atypical antipsychotic. Id never want to take that many meds. I had to fight to get them to remove gabapentin recently. It made me feel weird. Not to make this all about me lol, but meds can have crazy affects on us.
@@WilliamBrowning I bet :( it's definitely a struggle to find the right meds. I used to take Latuda and for years it helped a lot and suddenly it didn't.
I totally agree. I have occipital neuralgia and trigeminal neuralgia, which is caused by atypical and chronic muscle spasms from a misfiring nerve (usually associated with MS -but mine is due to Ehler’s Danlos). I am disabled by it - in part because all the nerve pain drugs all cause HORRIBLE mental issues for me. Intrusive negative thoughts, depression, ideations, helplessness and hopelessness. I have to choose between being physically handicapped or mentally ill. I choose to be in pain and sane. I’m autistic, and there does seem to be a high occurrence of atypical adverse reactions to pharmaceuticals for autistics. Anyhoo not to make it all about me. Just to concur: these meds, no matter what condition they’re used for, can have some GNARLY effects. And within a week of getting off them, those effects go away. Like GONE.
I've been taking venlafaxine for 6 months and its turned my life around. For 6-7 years I wasn't feeling like myself. Now at 24 with my Bachelors degree, a part time job, hoping to get another job at the Australian Government soon, living with housemates in Canberra, life is great. Being the first drug I tried to treat my MDD and GAD, it's helped me out so much. Unfortunately this doesn't work out for many other people. It's a tough life when you don't find the drug that suits you.
You were very fortunate to get treated early. That may well have kept you from developing treatment resistant depression, where many antidepressants won't work. I'm very happy to hear of your positive experience. I'm so glad you've found relief from your mental health symptoms as early as you did and I hope the meds (and I assume talk therapy) continue to help you and keep you in good mental health.
@@yossi1410 Thanks for your heartwarming reply. I'm very grateful for it all, though sometimes I wish I got treated years earlier but nothing can be done about the past. Godspeed friend
@@CSRLaunchpad you nailed it about how the past is the past and there's nothing we can do about it and to be grateful for getting good, effective treatment eventually. I never sought help until I was around 36 because there was so much stigma among my peers against antidepressants etc and there was still a lot of research lacking for PTSD. I spent years trying all kinds of med regimens, none helping and many causing bad side effects before I found meds that worked. I was able to get a bachelor's degree and became an EMT then a paramedic in my 20s, but the entire time I was dying inside and was tormented by symptoms. If I think about how much life I lost out on it gets very depressing, but like you said, we can't change the past. I'm just grateful that I was able to receive good care and treatment eventually because a whole lot of people never are able to get that. I'm really glad that we both were able to receive the care that we both needed and deserved. Hopefully as mental health awareness increases and stigma against it deceases, access will improve and others will be able to be treated sooner than both of us. No one deserves to live with these kinds of conditions untreated. Godspeed to you too my friend. Please take care and please share your story with others if you feel ok doing it because it will help destigmatize this stuff and you might even convince someone to seek the help they need. Cheers.
I don’t know about this case the premeditation really bothers me as well as the googling days before. It was incredibly calculating how she sent her husband out specifically to certain stores to give her enough time to take out the kids. A hallucination didn’t happen out of the blue here because she planned it.
I don't think she was hallucinating. And I understand why her search history and sending the husband out appears like premeditation. But hear me out. When you're on medications like she was, you don't trust your own thoughts, so you go looking for something to validate your feelings and soothe the tempest going on upstairs. Your mind also lies to you and can tell you awful things when you're unwell and alone. Maybe sending her husband out to run errands was an innocent request, and it wasn't until she was alone that the intrusive thoughts couldn't be silenced anymore. Those types of thoughts are very opportunistic and often show up when we're least expecting them. I mean, ffs, she used exercise bands. That isn't a method a rational person would typically use when premeditating multiple ☠️s. I truly don't believe she planned anything. I think no one was there to act as a touchstone to reality, so she quickly spiraled and destroyed the people who loved her the most because her brain lied to her and she believed it in her weakened state. This woman loved her babies. She was having a hard time going back to work because all she wanted to do was be with them as they grew. The healthcare system in this country failed this woman, and I don't think she should be locked up for life when her brain was so obviously broken.
@@clairewillow6475 You're missing the point. She had plenty of moments of rationality where she was premeditating the crime. Did she understand what she was doing? Obviously she did. Why didn't she tell her husband she was in a bad way and needed to be removed from the situation? If she was capable of this much premeditation and calculation, then she was capable of telling her husband that she needed to be hospitalized.
I saw counselors for 18 years of my working life, avoiding drugs. Although they didn't want to tell me what was wring with me finally told me I had ptsd. During the time I learned how to help myself as I found navigating people difficult. Now I'm retired thankfully, I don't need a counselor anymore as the challenge is no longer there. I agree with Dr Grande, counselling is best first stop. There were times my GP offered but I passed.
I hate when therapists do that never tell you what's really wrong, you can understand and move Forward and not need them anymore. Same thing happened to me.
@lilafeldman8630 ya it was the most annoying thing. They said they don't like to label anyone. After I kept insisting years into the therapy they told me cptsd. It totally made sense given my childhood dynamics. It's a poor tactic, but I think they may use it if they are unsure of dx for some reason.
@crakhaed the only reason they gave was they didn't want to label people. I did, after about 14 years learn my dx after persistent inquiries. Must be a new way they approach therapy Or at the time they were unsure which dx fit me.
This happened a few towns over. I do psychiatric nursing. Nobody gets ambien anymore. They gave her the wrong meds and didn't monitor her properly. I blame the providers. We ALWAYS monitor postpartum very closely. Her meds were insane and someone should have insisted on collaborating with other providers. I would have. I would have been calling the last provider. I would have insisted on getting releases to soeak with all her care providers. Or i would have filed with DCF. Someone dropped the ball and everyone that treated her is freaking out right now because they know it.
Woman had full access to mental health services, was receiving treatment and still murdered 3 kids. For everyone's safety she should probably stay behind bars for awhile.
First comment I’ve seen say this, not much mention of those babies. We can’t just overlook the deaths of three babies who had their entire lives ahead of them taken away. She should never be released. How will we ever know she won’t do it again if nobody could see her spiraling in this case?
The problem was that she had access to full mental health care - her doctors are idiots who constantly changed around with her medication as if they don’t understand that meds aren’t a magic happy pill - they literally cause neurochemical changes in your brain that can take weeks to reverse or change. Furthermore, meds can have opposing effects on each other - that’s why you NEED to taper off any psychiatric medication you take GRADUALLY and then GRADUALLY start taking doses of the new medication until you get to the desired end dosage (best if you can take a break in between starting new meds). It’s like they don’t understand basic human physiology despite that being what they studied for 4 years during med school and 3 years during residency. Her doctors did NOT take this approach btw - her lawyer touched on how insanely negligent they were in changing her medication and prescribing her so many different meds in such a short amount of time. This case should be an alarm of how medication is doled out in treating mental health issues in people - psychiatrists are some of the most jaded, lacking in common sense and critical thinking skills people I have ever encountered in my life. They have such little understanding of the nuanced ways in which all the meds they prescribe like candy can affect a person neurochemistry on a long term basis. Hell they don’t even understand how 90% of the medication they prescribe actually works or the complete physiological effects it has on people. They just think meds = no emotions, ok must be good for you. I have bipolar disorder and depression so trust me - if I listened to the insane and stupid approaches my psychiatrists took to treating me and didn’t do my own research and then presented it and the studies to back up my claims to my jaded psychiatrists, I would have ended up like a statistic like most of the people with bipolar disorder where 50% of them end up reporting that their prescribed meds dont work and they are labelled as treatment resistant.
Dr Grande you did not mention the phone call the husband had with his wife while the husband was at the CVS. He said she sounded out of breath and distracted. This was after he left (5:15) and before he arrived home (6:09). She was completely coherent not in any distress. He had no indication that she was in the middle of whatever she was doing.
You skipped over a lot of details. Everyone in the comments feeling sorry for HER yet it’s those three precious babies that were killed by their own mother. Imagine 6 year old Cora and little Dawson being strangled with an exercise band by her own Mama. I bet none of you would be filled with sympathy if Daddy did this. She was completely coherent when she took the lives of the children. Search warrants revealed she had been researching "how to kill" and she kept a journal. She also deliberately sent her husband farther away so she had more time. Justice for these 3 babies.
Its rare for me to sympathize with people who commit these kinds of crimes but in this case I think this was a over prescribed induced psychotic episode. These drugs are really powerful and their handed out by Dr.s like candy who believe there's a pill for every ill. They are trained to do so in a lot of cases instead of solving the underlining issues a person might have in a way that wont significantly affect their biological chemistry.
I agree and one of the thoughts I had was, at what point does the prescribing physician become responsible? And what does that look like? Is it getting in trouble with the board, is it getting charged with a crime, is it a slap on the wrist? I think in extreme cases of overprescribing like this some type of remediation with the physician should be considered. Telling a patient to take benzos, ambien, and antipsychotics all at once is downright negligent.
Our medical schools are largely funded by pharma. And you can look on the u.s. department of justice website....type "pharmaceutical" into the search box at the top, and it'll list all the times they've gone after doctors who took kick-backs for prescribing meds. There are great doctors out there! But some of them are taking payments for dispensing more drugs.
I'm not sure. A lot of pre-meditation seems to have gone into this. Sending the husband away? Acting like everything was fine? I'm sure the meds played a role and either planted or amplified some bad emotions and thoughts in her head, but she knew full well what she was doing. I guess my question is, if she was capable of methodically carrying this out, then she was capable of telling her husband, "'I'm messed up. I'm having bad thoughs. Take me away to be hospitalized." Instead she lets him think she's hunky dory and sends him on errands so she can strangle the kids one by one in the basement.
I think when people say they are anxious and/or depressed, especially women and children, they are saying, ‘My life needs to be changed’. Maybe someone is abusing them, or they want a different type of lifestyle. A major lifestyle change. Perhaps they are just creating a happy facade, and it is wearing thin. Drugs may make the ache, slightly less pronounced, but it can’t create happiness. She probably needed a support assistant, similar to a mental health bodyguard. Even therapy has very limited benefits, if the unease is great enough. The trouble with counseling is it wants to create ways to accommodate the current situation. It doesn’t lend itself to gigantic shifts in the status quo. ( The therapists that they used on Sister Wives are good representations of standard therapy. Lots of talking with little substance; no discernible change, the current status undisturbed.)
Doc, talking about drugs vs. counseling. I tried both. The drugs I quit taking after about a week. The counseling didn't either because I liked my therapist, and we just talked about art etc. I self-healed. Came to the conclusion that I would trace the symptom and all the circumstances around it back to the root cause (it's always interpersonal). And it's always the same conclusion. That shit is over, and it has no power over me anymore. I have vastly oversimplified the course I have taken. Also I might add, the healing began in 82. But I have been successful. I have not suffered from depression in over 2 years and my anxiety is only 5% of what it was. Of course, I am a fighter and my motto is NEVER GIVE UP AND KEEP FIGHTING. I mean that to the core. If you live by it you can't fail.
Based on my own experience, medication should not be prescribed without some kind of counseling plan. A counselor can monitor the effects of the medication better than the prescriber and patient. The American system is too dependent on medication and it should absolutely be the other way around. I am 100% with Dr. Grande on this, thanks for addressing this. I wish most professionals did.
I am a proponent of medication. I am also a staunch advocate for mental health counseling. I think the two need to work together to achieve best outcomes, rather than throw drugs at the issue and get on with your day. I will always be grateful for my meds, and for the counseling I received that gave me the tools I need to handle my issues. This is so sad.
It’s actually pretty common. I was on 12 in 2 months during a psychotic episode I thank god for modern medicine if it was the early 1900’s I would have been thrown in an insane asylum
I agree with your observation about counseling over medication. I was over medicated for YEARS and did not stay consistent in therapy because of how drugged up I was on psychiatric meds. I could BARELY get out of bed and it made me a very inattentive parent because I was so exhausted. My daughter was well cared for, but I was not playing with Barbie’s with her or taking her to do as many activities as I normally would. I was diagnosed with bipolar2 as a teenager after a traumatic experience. This diagnosis was carried with me through the years despite NEVER having a manic episode, and I spent so many years in a fog. I finally got consistent went therapy and have since pursued getting the diagnosis removed from my medical record. I have always felt worse on medications than I have ever felt better on them. I’ve learned to process my childhood trauma and I’ve become a much better and more secure person overall.
I also think it’s so important to find a therapist that you connect with. One of the reasons I did not stay consistent in therapy is because I did not like my therapists. Now that I’ve been seeing a female therapist close in age to me, I feel understood and heard, and the therapeutic benefit has exceeded every expectation I had going in. I wish I could have had this insight at the beginning of my mental health journey.
My friend had psychotic post natal depression ..when asked by husband to pass baby bottle , she responded by biting huge chunk off her own arm n spitting it at him . This was at a family bbq 3 weeks after birth . It got drastically worse and she was hospitalised ... she never ever really recovered and now 30 years later shes permanently in mental health hospital... its a very tragic thing for everybody concerned .
As a mother of five grown children, I stayed home with my children. I could not imagine trying to go back to work and care for your children without having some anxiety. The pressure we put on ourselves to have an expensive house, beautiful cars, beautiful clothes, etc. is ridiculous. You can’t have everything and expect your mental health to survive! While raising my five children I had a lot of mental health problems. We have got to change the way the world expects women to do it all! Only by the grace of God did I survive. We need help.
Working in psychiatric practice, on the surface this looks like post-partum psychosis, and a TON of missed opportunities. This isn’t so much a problem of drugs, it is a problem of the wrong medication for the wrong diagnosis. Could she have been manic? VERY few of my GAD patients go two days w/o sleep. Was there not depression? And new depression in the FIRST YEAR is PP depression unless proven otherwise. Sloppy Dx, poor follow-through, inadequate knowledge base (assumed, of course). Easy for you or I to armchair quarterback here, but I have treated several PP depression, some with psychosis, some with ego dystonic homicidal ideation. Those are ALWAYS emergencies, you cannot treat them like one might a suicidal person. I totally agree on the therapy piece, but another obstacle is massive shortage of psychotherapy clinicians. And then, SO FEW Masters level therapists know almost anything about diagnosis. At all. I bet if you quizzed many therapists they would be unaware of the immense risk space entered when clients have homicidal post partum ideations. So tragic. But like the flight channels say, the holes in the Swiss cheese sadly lined up. Also to blame, poor mental health training for all clinicians, and psychiatrists who are seeing people every 10 minutes to satisfy managed care overlords. We got problems! And one last thing about the anxiety piece. I wonder how much insight she demonstrated? I would bet there were soft delusional thought categorized as “anxiety.” So few people pursue follow-up questions. And while there were many drugs involved, none mentioned really interfere with reality testing. I agree, benzos right away is a mistake. Psychotherapy for sure, by physicians AND therapists. But the rest of the drugs were not so potent to be “causing” a problem to the point of misdiagnosis. If an antidepressant evokes mania, you are likely somewhere on the bipolar spectrum. This is so sad!
Can you help me understand why other women in her position (4+ psychiatric drugs + postpartum) don’t go on to do something horrible? She’s an anomaly, but why?
I also think that maybe having a child and losing your whole life you had before is just depressing. No time for yourself,no sleep, no contact with adults...and you're supposed to be just so happy about it! No thanks to that.
Very true, and a friend who understands that many illnesses of this type causes a person to self isolate and will be a little pushy about meeting up and checking in!
I completely agree with everything in the video and PP psychosis is scary. I’ve seen it 2-3x (as an Obgyn) and people who were completely fine before birth just become completely different. That said, the first time I heard about this case was when her husband ran a marathon just a few months later. If you run a 3.5 hr marathon, I have suspicions about just how much you were there supporting your partner. Maybe he did practice runs with a few kids in a jogging stroller, but I suspect she may have needed more help. I’m admittedly biased because I’m a mom and he’s a dad.
We have taken so much care away from childbirth and postpartum care. These awful cases are a result of that. My heart aches for them and other families going through through this.
Thank you for your comments on counselling and assessing clients for root causes. As an addendum to your list, depression, anxiety and suicide ideation are also linked to domestic violence. Something that can be overlooked. Much well-wishing to you in your work.
I believe therapy and psychiatry should go hand-in-hand, when both are called for. A competant psychiatrist will prescribe in a way that the patient can get relief WHILE working with a therapist to examine their condition and develop insight. I have experienced the success of this combination.
Thank you for your honesty. Two of my friends died from promiscuous prescribing. It wasn't all the doctor's fault. My friends demanded fast, fast relief. :(
Interesting how when a mother Kills her children everyone looks for some external motivation, depression,drugs,psychosis etc. When a man commits the same act, He’s immediately a monster and no external or internal influences can be considered in the slightest.
Because childbirth affects the chemical balance in a woman. When the chemicals in our brains become imbalanced or totally out of wack, ppl become insane, literally. Men also have imbalances for various reasons. But those reasons are never because their mind and body have been transformed. Except sometimes in cases of over-using steroids. I hope this helps you understand the complex nature of childbirth.
@@Don.tKillTheMessanger some women can also use that as an excuse tho right? Women are people. There are good and bad. Not all women are angels. Some are evil demons. Excusing any and every woman who murders their child makes zero sense. Each case must be taken on its own merits
Wow! I’m pretty convinced it was all the meds! Her original symptoms sound just like mine. General anxiety. Maybe some sleepless nights now and then. Extra worried for her kids ect… I even struggled with panic attacks at my worst. I was prescribed several meds that I never felt comfortable taking after looking up the side effects. I tried one and felt numb and off so immediately got off of it. Instead I went to counseling and began long distance running. I cannot tell you how incredible long distance running is for anxiety! I started walked long distance and when that became bored I started jogging. My symptoms became almost undetectable. combined with counseling. I would be very cautious of taking meds for anxiety unless extreme cases
This debate of counseling vs medication is valid, but one thing that’s not being discussed here is the cost. One visit to a doctor and medication costs substantially less than weekly counseling sessions over time. The financial barrier is what stops many people accessing mental health care aside from medications.
Counselors don't accept insurance. Not everyone can afford $200/week. You have to do a lot of homework to find someone who has a sliding scale fee or is overseeing an intern.
@@raymaharaj4502 Original poster has a point though. It's an update of a very recent Dr. Grande post and, in my opinion, the "update" did not add a lot.
Dr. Grande is prolly the hardest working TH-camr, and if you watch him regularly you’d know this. He doesn’t need to repost old Shyt guys, but yes I do acknowledge that there was not much of an update rather than a rehash of the original post. I don’t care though because he DID just post a new video, so he is styll my favourite no matter what.
I'm very torn on this case. I definitely think people are overmedicated. I'm in healthcare and it disgusts me as to how many medications are given and then more medications to counteract the side effects of the initial medication. That said, she's a nurse. And you don't have to be a nurse to have common sense. Her babies are dead and she planned it. Then she made a half hearted suicide attempt. I'm not sure everyone is to blame to the exclusion of Lindsey.
Counseling damaged me because several therapists thought that I lied about experiencing workplace harassment and abuse. So I was given Rx which led to extreme fatigue.
I've been in treatment for years, slowly finding the right medications for me. I've experienced a lot of side effects, from brain fog to mood swings to tardive dyskenesia and lots in between. Some of us really do need medication, even a lot of medication or many medications, to function and be healthy, but I am a firm believer in counseling too, and medication should be approached with caution and carefully monitored.
so many people see a therapist they don't vibe with, or have a negative experience with therapy, & write it off completely. the therapeutic alliance is important. think about it: do you mesh well with every single person you meet? would you establish a close relationship with any random person? therapists are people. if you don't vibe with them, have them refer you out or look into finding someone else. a good therapist will do check-ins to make sure you are getting what you need. not vibing with the first therapist you see is fairly common, it's happened to me too. but once i found someone, it helped so much. i think there needs to be more awareness about this, because i've seen too many people say they gave up on therapy because they didn't like the person they saw.
Post partum depression and fatigue are enough on their own, but stress, a new baby, and mixed medications can make someone snap and have a mental crisis whereas they may have never had one. Point being, it’s hard to say unless it was us in that exact situation.
I don't know if this goes against client privilege or not, but why couldn't the counselor have told her husband not to leave her alone with the kids. If somebody along the line had told him that just out of precaution, this wouldn't have happened. There is something about her and this case that makes my blood boil. I have a really hard time siding with mental health here. There is something about how she did things that does not fit.
I have a former client who works as a dental receptionist. At the clinic, they have a form where the clients fill out which medications they are on. She said over 80% of the ladies over 40 are on anxiety, anti-depressants and sleeping pills or all of the above. I don’t think people realize how medicated our society is, and what the effects of that look like!
Not to mention the amount if people self medicating with Marijuana and other drugs
Combining sleep aids with alcohol and anti-depressants is a veritable epidemic
@@GeeGee19good for you. You deserve credit for that.
@@GeeGee19this is very inspiring, as I’m currently in a similar situation to where you were before. Thank you for confirming it’s indeed possible to do this.
Yes, it's definitely worrisome. I take psychiatric medication myself, but I consider myself to be unusually objective in spite of having had a serious mood disorder for much of my life.
Some patients will not find such objectivity, and might lose track of the very powerful effects of these medications.
It can end in great tragedy, as in the case being discussed.
Americans generally underestimate the power and inherent dangers in pharmaceutical products, since we are largely desensitized to the use of drugs in general, and also since we tend very much to reach for relief from practically any complaint we might ever have.
I can’t tell you how badly I needed this video doc. I work in the mental health field myself and I’ve had a therapist and psychiatrist both for many years but as of this year I haven’t really spoken to my therapist- and my mother died this year, so I feel that lately I am relying on my medications, but it is exactly like a tire leaking air. We manage, but it’s not improving anything in the situation. I think I’m going to call my therapist in the morning. Thanks doc 🙏
Good for you, and sorry about your mother. It gets easier bit by bit!
I really like this new format of Dr Grande's, much more substance...chemical straight jackets only benefit big pharma.
So sorry for your loss. Please call your therapist. It is so important to process your feelings. Medication is not enough. Wishing you the best.
@TheKourtneyDee not sure health professionals should be should be seeing pychiatrists and still practicing
@@Nick-b7b9s I’m not a counselor or therapist at this time, however that’s not true. Many many of my colleagues see see their psychiatrists and therapists on a regular basis to keep themselves healthy as we treat others.
Here is the big problem: People have no problem getting an appointment with a doctor who is taught to deal with our struggles with meds. They will give me a list of 12 therapists. I will call ALL of them in desperate need to talk. ONE will call me back 3 weeks later to say they are all booked up. Thats a reaccuring problem I have experienced.
Ditto that. I was given two pages of therapists, around 30 names. Some were disconnected numbers, some never answered, some had a voicemail but never called back, and one even turned out to be on the sex offender registry. (I checked them all). Not one was even available, much less suitable or appropriate. I managed on my own, also a medicine man was very helpful. The list of therapists given by my doctor: useless.
Agreed!!
Now most of them are answering services. You have no real way to reach them.
Yes! I just got over post-partum depression that lasted about 2 1/2 years. I was screened shortly after my daughter was born and found to have post-partum depression. They gave me a list of psychiatrist/therapists. I called all of them. Some numbers disconnected, others I left a message but never heard back. I dealt with my PPD with my normal depression and anxiety meds. It was the hardest thing I've ever dealt with.
I was lucky that I had a support system.
Same. I even called up a huge, world-renowned university near me...one that boasts a "wide range of mental health services for patients of all ages," only to be told that I could get on a waiting list, but it would likely be *THREE MONTHS* before an initial visit.
The major problem is that counseling is not financially viable for most people. Many people have medications covered or partly covered by insurance/medicaid...fewer people have counseling covered. As well, in this crazy world where people work long hours/have to hold two jobs/are struggling to parent and keep up, carving out time for oneself can be stigmatized. People worry about appearing selfish if they spend time and money (assuming they have those things) on keeping themselves well.
Thus, pills. Often cheap, always convenient, and requires no effort. Little stigma because you take them in private. It's an inferior solution but it sure seems easir in the short term!
No stigma at all, because most of the country appears to be medicated, and some of my friends on meds even try to get others to give it a whirl. People brag about it sometimes.
Completely agree
I disagree, I think a lot of people don't want to do therapy, I think a lot of people just want to talk about their problems. Actually working on how to let go of anger and pain is different than talk about it.
My sister did therapy years ago, and she told me she stopped going because the therapist was to critical. When she stopped going she told me the therapist said "so I'll be banished from your world like everyone else." And yeah, that is how my sister works, she pushes people away and is shocked she doesn't have friends, and doesn't have people she can depend on.
A lot of people want the easy fix of pills even if they don't work.
@@Brush4000 that is also a great point
I came into comments to make this point about the financial ease of drugs verses therapy and also the hard work effective therapy will be.
I cannot imagine what her husband experienced within minutes of nonchalantly returning home with dinner for his family. He walked into unimaginable horror. They'll likely never understand what caused this exactly. If it was the medications and she becomes clearer thinking, how will she ever come to terms with her own actions. It's just a horrible situation.
So true
My thoughts exactly. So tragic.
I had a counselor tell me that if I didn’t want medication, I didn’t want to be well. She was wrong, I was disappointed.
These doctors are brainwashed. It's a disgusting.
She was wrong. They simply don't work for everyone. They told me gabapentin (very low grade med) would work great for alcohol withdrawal and anxiety, after I stopped drinking and went thru withdrawals by myself, I took gabapentin for anxiety, appropriately-apart from forgetting on my weekend, and then I got withdrawals from it lol. That clearly did not work for me and put me off of anxiety meds for life. Specifically that can make an already mentally ill person totally miserable and hopeless. I don't even want to imagine what Xanax would have done. Obviously never stop a med suddenly unless your DR tells you specifically, I'm literally only saying they don't work for some personality types and they do not work with some people's brain chemistry.
I'm going to piss people off but I do think women tend to go for an easy fix, ie women wanting Ozempic to loose weight because dieting is too hard.
Drugs will just mask the problems, and doesn't fix them. And I don't really think anyone will be perfect, really it's just a matter of dealing with the past, being in a good place mentally, and moving on. But that does take a lot of work, and it's easier to pop a pill.
@@Brush400011% of men and boys over the age of 12 suffer from addiction, while only 6% of women do
I saw a video by Dr Josef where a woman went to a psychiatrist after her husband committed suicide (an adverse reaction from psych meds). She said to the dr, "My husband killed himself. Aren't I supposed to feel sad and grieve?" And the dr said, "yes, but you don't have to."
Disturbing beyond belief.
I was in the Massachusetts system as a child. They overdosed me on medication so many times. I was on a cocktail. When I finally refused them, my brain defrosted, and my symptoms went away. The medicine made me sick and crazy.
Heartbreaking
I was in group homes in Delaware as a teenager for a couple years. I hated the side effects of the medication they gave me and I didnt need them ! I would go on medication strikes and refuse to take them. The counselors wrote me up every time which led to being grounded and such. I adored my counselors there , but they had protocol they had to follow . The system is messed up for sure.
❤
I had severe pnd after the birth of my daughter. It was the combination of medication and therepy that brought me back from the edge.
My daughter now has her mum present and healthy. I no longer take medication, but I am still doing therepy.
Both are responsible for my recovery but finding a psychologist i connected with was the game changer
8:04
Great.. but those medications affect everyone differently.
@awkwardautistic Of course they do. I am speaking of my lived experience and not of anyone else's.
I had an allergic reaction to epilim that swelled my liver to the size of a football. It took months for my liver levels to come down.
Others who take this have no issues.
It was the combination of therepy and medication responsible for my recovery. Therepy was the game changer.
I have read Lindsay was on 13 prescriptions - that to me is the problem - I took a single medication at a moderate dose and it helped greatly
@@JennyQamoos oh exactly. I was 2 at my worst. 13 is just unethical.
Dr Grande! I love your channel so much. When people ask what I watch on TH-cam you’re the first one I suggest. It’s like tiny news segments but interesting and unbiased, only speculating u know.
One of the many things that I appreciate about your channel is how you manage to break down complex human struggles into the core issues. The number of medications prescribed her is absolutely mind boggling.
I really appreciate this update. This was a horrible mental health crisis. Everyone loses.
It was a crisis caused by the treatment
My husband wigged out on Ambien. Luckily he was in the hospital for a heart valve problem but he ripped out his IVs and took off all his clothes and thought he was kidnapped and being held for ransom. The evening nurse told me the next day that it’s pretty common for Ambien to wreck havoc on people. I hallucinate with codeine and think people are trying to break into my house. My mom had a horrible reaction to Haldol. Yikes! A friend of mine woke up in the psych ward after taking codeine. People think these things are safe because they are prescribed.
been there done that!! some meds are terrible for your mental health
All terrible medications for sure, but ambien is downright dangerous.
Totally agree. I knew a guy who attempted suicide right after starting a new med. He had no symptoms of depression, let alone any suicidal ideation prior to this. The Rx had nothing to do with psychiatric treatment. Those suicide warnings you see on some Rx fine print is definitely there for a reason.
@@maryd253 I have never personally known anyone who had such an an experience. I know plenty of people who take such medications without incident. They ARE definitely safe to try. If a person flips out the first time they try it, then logically they wouldn’t take it again. What’s the problem?
@@Watchoutforsnakez LOL! This sounds like the disclaimer at the end of one of those commercials, _"If you're allergic to (something you've never taken before), please consult your physician."_
Impressively lucid dissection of the difference in therapies. Hats off to you, doctor Big!
Oh I agree ❤
He's amazing
I had horrible postpartum depression that I never even thought possible. I never wanted to hurt my children but the despair I felt was unbelievable. I had it with my second child, as well. I figured that because I was more informed maybe it wouldn’t be as severe and it was. To this day I am on Celexa and feel it was a life saver.
Me too. In fact my children saved my life because every time I felt like I didn’t want to go on, I thought about my children and hung in there until I saw my doctor and got medicated and found a mental therapist. My needing to take care of my children made me stick it out. I don’t have any postpartum with my first two but my third baby just wouldn’t birth. I was 2 weeks overdue and tried the intravenous drug to induce but it didn’t work 3 X. Every time I didn’t go into labor and walk out of the labor/delivery area and walk past the glass window with all the new babies in there I would fall apart. I think that is what started it. My first two came like clockwork-using Lamaz breathing. I didn’t have postpartum psychosis though. Only depression. I think this woman had something deeper going on besides baby-blues. So sad.
I did too but to be fair, anyone who has experienced PPD will claim it was horrible as it is!!!
I too had bad PPD and had to switch from Zoloft to Lexapro. We were on the right track, but it needed just a little more oomph. I got Welbutrin as an add-on and it was a lifesaver for me. I had a "not click" with a counselor at the place I was going to and their scheduling and hours was so horrible that I'd go weeks or even months between sessions so that definitely didn't help. I still get normal stress and anxiety but the s* depression I was suffering disappeared, only ever rearing its ugly head once due to autistic burnout (we just had a lot of environmental stressors that are going away now). I too never felt the urge to hurt my baby girl but I sure as sh* wanted to take myself out (and actually tried once). That was such a dark phase of my life and I do have this fear in the back of my mind that I might wake up feeling that horrible again sometimes.
@@lindacarlson6887how old are your kids. I have a daughter with this. 😊
I did too! Not to be confused with PP psychosis. I never thought to harm my children!! I had 4 children and with each one I had it. With the first 2 in the 1980’s I didn’t know what was happening to me. But for my last 2, PPD was well known so I understood better what was going on to get help for myself. So important to keep these diseases at the forfront so that new mothers can get help asap. And not allow it to get worse and turn into Psychosis.
Dr Grande, this was an excellent video. Your analysis was so informative. I have major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disorder. My strategy of treatment is a combination of therapy and medication. Learning how to overcome cognitive distortions has been extremely helpful, in addition to use of meds.
I see this case in the same way as I have always seen the Andrea Yates case. I hope that Lindsey continues to get the treatment she needs both physically and mentally and I pray for her and her husband. It is a tragedy for them both and may the sweet babes be happy in Heaven! I believe that they are. We cannot blame those who are mentally unwell for their actions especially when the drugs given to ease the complaints make the beneficiary homicidal. Having recently experienced severe suicidal ideation after coming off a long term medication far too quickly I can attest that drugs can go wrong and DO cause more damage more than we are aware! Great assessment Dr G and thank you.
I lived through post partum depression and I would not wish it on anyone. It is the scariest, most isolating hopeless despair beyond imagination. Fortunately, I reached out to my OB who quickly prescribed me medication which was too high of a dose and threw me into the worst anxiety/panic I’ve ever dealt with in my entire life. I am lucky enough to have had the access to a Center for Perinatal Mood and Anxiety Disorders where I received the correct dosage medication which was low dose titrated slowly and therapy for one year at no cost. I do not know how I would have survived PPD without it. My biggest recommendation would be to connect with a place that specializes in PPD and perinatal mood disorders to receive the best treatment tailored to you.
This is great advice. I’m so happy you were able to manage PPD. I hope you’re still doing well!
I made a decision long ago to seek alternative means to deal with my personal problems instead of the route of endless medications. I'm so glad I did. It was a rough road, but virtually all my problems once referred to as mental disabilities have been overcome.
Can you share some of what you did to manage? I could use advice
@@firstactionhero that’s great. It’s everyone’s goal to be at peace and not suffering through emotional problems. But, perhaps only one medication would have been a solution. Not everyone takes “endless medication”. And not everyone can pull themselves up by the bootstraps.
@@Watchoutforsnakezthat’s true. It’s also okay to do both. Meds and life style changes. Exercise, clean diet, sleep,
Yoga, journaling, are helpful but if you’re in a deep hole you don’t have the desire to do any of that.
@@Petruskinhap972I agree. I struggled with depression as a teen. Getting out of bed to use the bathroom required a pep talk. Getting out of bed to take a shower required a crowbar, well practically. It took a decade to feel even sort of normal. I actually did take anti-depressants but not initially for years. When I did though it was like going from black and white to color, it was that much of a difference. And I did sort of wonder how much of my childhood was spent depressed when I could have been happier as I do not recall ever feeling so much happier in my childhood. I know drugs and kids are controversial but I feel they really could have helped me much earlier. Ah well, so goes life. 🤷🏻♀️
@@KraftyKreatoragreed! I’m on a low dose SSRI and I feel like myself but the best version of me. I’m not stuck in my head, I describe it as “putting my overthinking on mute” it’s changed my life and I am incredibly happy on my one medication.
1.5 million subscibers and less than 10% viewership on this video. Mind you, a very important video about the risks associated with mental health medications. You’ve providede valid points, pertinent data, relevant examples, and delivered in a very aesthetic way. I find it hard to believe that people are deciding not to watch your videos.
Thank you for everything you do. We appreciate it.
Maybe the holidays ppl r busy. Re: viewership
R u ocpd?? Re; viewing? Numbers
The prescription of Benzos with Ambien and other anti-depressants is insane. No one could possibly know how these drugs interact.
They are more commonly prescribed together for middle aged patient especially women as don't forget we are in menopause too. We have to come to grips with the fact that our reproductive years are over whilst our husband's are still verile and why so many middle aged men hook up with younger women as mine did too.
@@jaqueitch it’s generally predictable. I was on those. I wasn’t a psycho. This lady wasn’t getting the level of help she needed. Her psychiatrist went to the gun fight with a knife.
Ambien is a benzo. Benzodiazepines are a family of drugs like klonopin, Xanax, Valium, ambien ect. Antidepressants are SSRI’s. Antidepressants and benzodiazepines don’t usually cause any serious side effects while taken together and it’s actually quite common to be prescribed for example Zoloft and klonopin at the same time (a benzo and a SSRI). And her psychiatrist would be responsible for knowing what meds can be taken together. She should have been having regular check ins w her psychiatrist about her medications as is required when under prescribed meds.
@@Watchoutforsnakezyup:(
@@DEBORAH4-ut9szhrt:(
I was a victim of overprescribing. Lamictal, seroquel, paxil, propanolol, benadryl, and abilify all at once. I had a very terrible reaction to the abilify and developed sever tardive dyskinesia. My tremors were so bad I couldn't even raise a glass to my face to drink out of it. It ruined my life for 3 years. And at the end of it, I was able to work through my issues without any medication whatsoever. Some of the side effects of these medications can be so extreme, prescription medication should be a last resort, not a first. Even the seroquel just turns you into a zombie. I remember I would do anything possible to get out of whatever responsibilities I had because I was so tired all the time. I couldn't even function. We have a long way to go in this industry.
Abilify didn't give me any tremors but it wreaked havoc on my blood sugar and made me super tired/apathetic to everything. I also gained a TON of weight on it. When I managed to trickle-wean myself off at last, I started dropping weight a lot faster (I was in a bariatric program at the time). I'm so glad I got off it. I don't miss it all and made sure that it was in the "no" column of my chart. I had to get gastric bypass to unstuck myself completely from the weight problem (though I must admit I had terrible eating habits that needed changing anyway). I hope your life is going better and that you're not going through any more medical circuses.
I'm very sorry that this happened to you. It would have been awful! I suffered a similar reaction after I was given Serenace, which in 1982 was given for nausea in Childbirth. I don't recall being nauseous, but I do remember how I felt after being taken to the post partum ward and feeling my neck go to the left and up without myself having any control over this. I remember waking up the following day with a nurse by my bedside who ran out to get a Doctor and him telling me to ensure that all my Doctors down the years must know that I was allergic to that drug and it caused an occulogyric crisis. I have cared for many elderly people as an RN who had suffered long-term problems due to the antipsychotic medications they had been placed on years earlier in mental health institutions, and I felt enormously sorry for them. I am aware of what the symptoms of TD are, and I'm sorry that you lost all those years being tired and unwell. I hope that your coming days are much better for you! Take care now. From country NSW Australia.
Prescription medication is a precious tool, and depending on the case it might be the last resort or the very first. The treatment of a mental illness is very complicated, since there are a lot of factors, biological, psychological and social involved. Some people will need only psychotherapy, others will also need a small dose of medication, others will take a ton of medication and still unfortunately with poor results.
Expectations are also important. Up to which point are we ok with leaving a person without treatment? An elder person who lives alone in a horded house, and feels persecuted, a young adult who spends his years in a dark room, an other that has a severe depression.. people that are not a danger to the others but their own wellbeing is compromised and among their symptoms, one is that of denying there is a condition that needs to be treated.
Shouldn't we as a modern, civilised society be morally obligated to treat them?
On the other hand, there maybe a lack of access to the mental health professionals, of appropriate structures, or even a mismanagement from the part of the doctor or the whole system.
Tell the Hat Man I said hello and he’s never getting his $40
I've heard of abilify *messing* people up bad, I swear I've never heard of someone having a good experience with it, especially in tandem with other medications
She was on soooo many drugs. Considering how the drugs themselves can cause symptoms...yikes. What a horrible tragedy.
I hope her husband can sue for malpractice and prevent such another incident ever happening again. 13 psychotropics in 4 months is beyond ridiculous, what a horrific preventable nightmare 😞
What I don’t understand is that many women are on all sorts of drug cocktails + postpartum depression and don’t go on to do something horrible like this. She’s an outlier for a reason, but why?
@@nicehorn5250everybody reacts differently. she was a rare although tragic statistic
@@nicehorn5250She is also a nurse who understands meds and dosage. She was also able to plan to get her husband out of the house and to keep him out long enough to kill their three young children. When she woke up she asked if she needed a lawyer. If she was a mother who had been on street drugs or drunk, very few people would have any sympathy for her. Three young kids are dead. Her own kids. Yet everyone seems to be infantilizing this woman and turning her into the most important victim out of this horrible triple murder
@@nicehorn5250 ✨genetics✨ she was also previously looking into MFTHR genes, she was going to through these things all of a sudden, and was trying to find out why. I am extremely sensitive too SSRIS and the other category’s as well. I can’t tolerate them to the point that they give me an out of body experience. I have tried a plethora of them.
I hope that you are well, Dr. Grande. Praying you're in good health or that it improves. Your insight is appreciated, as it is always well informed with sources cited.
Thanks for spending so much of your time with us here on TH-cam.
Be well💚
I’m a psychiatrist who had severe postpartum depression; I responded to lexapro plus Wellbutrin; neither by itself but the combo helped; now days there is also a hormonal medication for PPD
What is lexapro?
@ lexapro is the brand name for escitalopram which is an SSRI antidepressant
A hormonal treatment makes a lot of sense, thanks for mentioning it
No side affects to counseling? I'm addicted to Dr. Grande.
Make sure get took a great, graduate records test. Dei..no!
Going to counseling was hands down the most empowering and important step of my life. It took years of going on and off but the life skills I learned are imbedded in me all of these years later ❤
Embedded
Excellent analysis, Dr. Grande.
It’s refreshing Dr G that you don’t believe in throwing meds at the problem without therapy. Since that new class of drugs on the market, many Doctors are quick to prescribe. But you are right, it takes time to find the correct dose or drug combination. In the meantime symptoms get worse. I needed a combination of therapy and drugs. It’s a very sad case. Perhaps one that could’ve been avoided?
Armchair autistic psychologist here. Take my opinion with a grain of salt since I've got a buttload of mental problems myself and take quite a bit of meds. But one thing that has jumped out to me a LOT in these cases is Ambien. I took it myself for a sleep study and I did NOT like it. Not only did it not really help me get to sleep, it gave me horrible and depressing dreams when I finally DID sleep. My mother took it at one time because her fibromyalgia kept her up because it hurt. She did all sorts of weird things and got up at all times of night to feed the stray cats or walk the dog (poor dog was sleeping, by the way) or go on a cleaning marathon (she was an anal housekeeper but she got waaay worse on this stuff). She was also mean as f* to me and my dad. When she finally got off that crap, she completely changed back into her normal self and I was SO grateful because I didn't have the "real" her for years. In a lot of child homicide cases, the drug Ambien seems to always or almost always be on the murderer's medication list. A lot of these people then try to off themselves (or at least it looks that way). I'm honestly concerned that they haven't taken it off the market yet. So many people allege that they've had loved ones take it and go completely off the rails. My husband had severe depression after he tried one to the point of s* thoughts so he drank a lot of water to try and flush it out of his blood and vowed to never touch the stuff again. That was honestly very scary for me. I spent all day with him trying to distract him and make sure he was okay. The next day, he was totally back to normal. It was just nuts. I have no idea why but it f*s with SO many people's behavior and brain chemistry. What do you guys think? @Todd Grande what do YOU think about Ambien specifically and the possible link to s*/h* behavior?
I struggle and am on several meds and have ambien available to me. For me, it is helpful. I don't take it often, but it helps me sleep and I wake up refreshed. Just another perspective (edited for misspelling)
I've taken ambien (off and on) since it hit the market in 2003(?) I believe it was. It's been a life saver. If someone is having such adverse reactions stopping the drug seems the route to go....especially if you have such an extreme reaction to a small initial dose (presumably) a 5mg script is what most docs will give you. Good luck getting a pharmacy to fill for anything stronger than 10mgs and rightly so. Ambien has zero effect on my mood other than elevating it because I'm getting sleep. As a bonus it seems to calm some of my severe nerve pain in my cervical spine.
I was just posting before I read this, that I hallucinated on the first and only ambien I ever consumed. 😳
Ambien is a good drug, saved my life. I couldn’t sleep for several days and lost touch with reality. Spiraling and panicked and got down to only 90 pounds, no clothes fit me and I was always terrified and walked for miles every day, just to cope. With ambien I was able to sleep four hours a night. Not great, but enough for my mental state to improve. Sleep is of course essential to everything
armchair psychologist… hm
Some times the prescribers don’t spend enough time and see their patients often enough to really assess the effects of treatment
Dr Grande, thank for talking about the differences between prescriber and therapeutic relationships.
I would love if you did a whole video about this.
Thanks!
Sometimes sick mothers just need to have LONG breaks from children. If it’s PPOCD then clearly the treatment is to learn HOW to take time away from kids and then get them TONS of rest and QUIET! I was near death with PPOCD/PPD and one thing I longed for that is could feel better just by daydreaming about for a moment was rest. Quiet. No one bothering me for 1-2-3 days. It would have kept me out of psychosis where I ended up.
Yes many mothers nowadays taking on too much bc of society and it's expectations. Everybody needs rest!
Oh my goodness, we are being blessed today! Two uploads!
Edit: Wait, is this a re-upload of the recent update from a couple days ago?
As a retired psychotherapist, I 100% agree with your discussion regarding the appropriate use of therapy and medications. Very well stated.
I just can’t wrap my head around this one, it’s too horrible.
My gosh. This is so tragic.
I used to think that women like her were monsters and postpartum psychosis was just an excuse. Until after I had my fourth baby at the age of 23 & I went through postpartum psychosis myself. I made it through and when I think back to that time it almost feels like a dream. Thankfully I had no urge to harm any of my children, but I easily could have. It’s terrifying how easily and how quickly I lost complete control of myself. I feel great sympathy for this woman.
It's a shame you had to experience it yourself before you believed other women.
TY for saying that clients don’t need counseling forever! ! !
I can tell you that ambien can cause hallucinations.
My god, I took half an ambien from my dad and didn't go to sleep right away, and I started seeing everything in my room seem to start LUNGING at me aggressively in my vision. I tried to look at my phone and the app thumbnails were falling off of the screen. I hid under my covers after I turned off the light, convinced everything around me wanted to hurt me. Fuck that noise! 😂
Indeed! I took an ambien one time when I was on day 2 of false labor and 48 hours of no sleep.
On the way home from the hospital, I was in the passenger seat and was just casually watching the road sway and loop and twirl around me.
I looked at my husband and I was like “wow, you are a good driver, I can’t believe you can drive with the road moving all around!”
He told me from that second he knew not to leave me alone until it wore off. He actually locked the bedroom door and put a child knob cover over it so I wouldn’t wake up and do who knows what 😳
Lunesta too. Made me call 911 thinking I was being robbed.
Dr Grande, I often listen to you while doing my housework daily, this format is perfect
Medication too often takes the place of therapy, you've said this yourself Dr. Grande. Such a sad case.
This is such a sad case. I feel so bad for them all...the mom, the children, and the husband.
I really like the way you maintain an unbiased point of view of the circumstances rather than jumping into judgement and such.
I had post partum depression and my I made my husband hide all the knives, scissors, and take his guns to his brothers house because I was scared I would lose control of my body and hurt my baby. It’s to this day the most terrifying thing I have ever experienced. Her and her family are in my prayers ❤
I was so scared too with PPD, with my first child, I was having intrusive thoughts until I asj for help to my relatives and went to treatment.
i'm at a particularly high risk for post partum psychosis, and i literally have a safety plan already made for when i have children. i am that scared of it happening. i have had an episode before and i was completely non-violent, but you cannot predict what you will do during a break.
It is a nightmare.
This is postpartum OCD. Those behaviors were compulsions❤
@ I was diagnosed with OCD shortly there after and I still suffer from it today unfortunately but it was initially diagnosed as post partum OCD and then later just OCD. I had kids fairly young I was 21 when I had my first and so it’s almost like post partum brought that already existing disorder to the surface.
I believe this video is one of your best (if not the best)videos you’ve produced. I’ve felt in my heart for years that I am Rx’d from my primary physician on any symptom. I’ve taken anti anxiety meds for years, Rx for insomnia however, I was never recommended counseling as to WHY …. I’ve told my husband repeatedly that I want off of all Rx’s because the insomnia Rx causes weight gain & zombie the following day. I will look into counseling & request them to look at my Rx list, see how we (counseling and primary physicians) can help me reach my goal.
Thank you Dr.Grande 🙌🏻
Dr. Grande, I partially agree with your approach (counseling first medication second). There are instances in which counseling is futile without previous medication. Extreme anxiety disorder is a good example. As a patient, one cannot simply attend therapy and talk to someone with symptoms of such severity. Anyone who has experienced anxiety will understand this. Another example, as you well mentioned, is psychosis. There is simply too much at stake for the patient to wait for counseling to start taking effect.
Thank you for the updated analysis, Dr. Grande!
This is another great analysis. Thank you, Dr. Grande.
I know medicines affect everybody differently, I used to take cyroquil and it knocked me on my butt. If I was taking that with Benadryl I would never be conscious.
I currently take lamictal and Wellbutrin. I have bipolar 2 and seem to have very bad reactions to every atypical antipsychotic. Id never want to take that many meds. I had to fight to get them to remove gabapentin recently. It made me feel weird.
Not to make this all about me lol, but meds can have crazy affects on us.
For sure, I have to take a medication for epilepsy now and symptoms bring out past trauma at random times, it can be difficult.
Welbutrin caused me to have a psychotic break. I've never had one before or since. It was scary AF.
@@WilliamBrowning I bet
:( it's definitely a struggle to find the right meds. I used to take Latuda and for years it helped a lot and suddenly it didn't.
Seroquel was definitely not for me. It gave me what I later learned was restless legs syndrome. I never want to feel like that ever again.
I totally agree. I have occipital neuralgia and trigeminal neuralgia, which is caused by atypical and chronic muscle spasms from a misfiring nerve (usually associated with MS -but mine is due to Ehler’s Danlos). I am disabled by it - in part because all the nerve pain drugs all cause HORRIBLE mental issues for me. Intrusive negative thoughts, depression, ideations, helplessness and hopelessness. I have to choose between being physically handicapped or mentally ill. I choose to be in pain and sane. I’m autistic, and there does seem to be a high occurrence of atypical adverse reactions to pharmaceuticals for autistics.
Anyhoo not to make it all about me. Just to concur: these meds, no matter what condition they’re used for, can have some GNARLY effects. And within a week of getting off them, those effects go away. Like GONE.
I've been taking venlafaxine for 6 months and its turned my life around. For 6-7 years I wasn't feeling like myself. Now at 24 with my Bachelors degree, a part time job, hoping to get another job at the Australian Government soon, living with housemates in Canberra, life is great. Being the first drug I tried to treat my MDD and GAD, it's helped me out so much.
Unfortunately this doesn't work out for many other people. It's a tough life when you don't find the drug that suits you.
@@DaisyDay.-pm2cf That's awesome, congratulations!
You were very fortunate to get treated early. That may well have kept you from developing treatment resistant depression, where many antidepressants won't work. I'm very happy to hear of your positive experience. I'm so glad you've found relief from your mental health symptoms as early as you did and I hope the meds (and I assume talk therapy) continue to help you and keep you in good mental health.
@@yossi1410 Thanks for your heartwarming reply. I'm very grateful for it all, though sometimes I wish I got treated years earlier but nothing can be done about the past. Godspeed friend
@@CSRLaunchpad you nailed it about how the past is the past and there's nothing we can do about it and to be grateful for getting good, effective treatment eventually. I never sought help until I was around 36 because there was so much stigma among my peers against antidepressants etc and there was still a lot of research lacking for PTSD. I spent years trying all kinds of med regimens, none helping and many causing bad side effects before I found meds that worked. I was able to get a bachelor's degree and became an EMT then a paramedic in my 20s, but the entire time I was dying inside and was tormented by symptoms. If I think about how much life I lost out on it gets very depressing, but like you said, we can't change the past. I'm just grateful that I was able to receive good care and treatment eventually because a whole lot of people never are able to get that. I'm really glad that we both were able to receive the care that we both needed and deserved. Hopefully as mental health awareness increases and stigma against it deceases, access will improve and others will be able to be treated sooner than both of us. No one deserves to live with these kinds of conditions untreated. Godspeed to you too my friend. Please take care and please share your story with others if you feel ok doing it because it will help destigmatize this stuff and you might even convince someone to seek the help they need. Cheers.
i took zoloft for 3 years and it was a lifesaver too. i was able to live my life without paralyzing fear and the effect still stands after cessation
Very informative. Thank you Dr Grande.
Another upload! Dr. Grande you are da 👑.
I don’t know about this case the premeditation really bothers me as well as the googling days before. It was incredibly calculating how she sent her husband out specifically to certain stores to give her enough time to take out the kids. A hallucination didn’t happen out of the blue here because she planned it.
I don't think she was hallucinating. And I understand why her search history and sending the husband out appears like premeditation. But hear me out. When you're on medications like she was, you don't trust your own thoughts, so you go looking for something to validate your feelings and soothe the tempest going on upstairs. Your mind also lies to you and can tell you awful things when you're unwell and alone. Maybe sending her husband out to run errands was an innocent request, and it wasn't until she was alone that the intrusive thoughts couldn't be silenced anymore. Those types of thoughts are very opportunistic and often show up when we're least expecting them. I mean, ffs, she used exercise bands. That isn't a method a rational person would typically use when premeditating multiple ☠️s. I truly don't believe she planned anything. I think no one was there to act as a touchstone to reality, so she quickly spiraled and destroyed the people who loved her the most because her brain lied to her and she believed it in her weakened state. This woman loved her babies. She was having a hard time going back to work because all she wanted to do was be with them as they grew. The healthcare system in this country failed this woman, and I don't think she should be locked up for life when her brain was so obviously broken.
Mania / psychosis is not just a "hallucination out of the blue" . Have you ever been around someone experiencing psychosis?
@@clairewillow6475 You're missing the point. She had plenty of moments of rationality where she was premeditating the crime. Did she understand what she was doing? Obviously she did. Why didn't she tell her husband she was in a bad way and needed to be removed from the situation? If she was capable of this much premeditation and calculation, then she was capable of telling her husband that she needed to be hospitalized.
💯 she’s just a sociopath. What did it for me was the stark contrast between how she killed her kids Vs how she tried to kill herself. Give me a break.
@@automnejoy5308 it was not premeditated. You clearly have NEVER been in the same room as someone experiencing psychosis. I have
As a community pharmacists working in UK, London, I agree with your every single world and your conclusion, Dr Grand, thank you❤
Thanks Dr Grande. 😊
I saw counselors for 18 years of my working life, avoiding drugs. Although they didn't want to tell me what was wring with me finally told me I had ptsd. During the time I learned how to help myself as I found navigating people difficult. Now I'm retired thankfully, I don't need a counselor anymore as the challenge is no longer there. I agree with Dr Grande, counselling is best first stop. There were times my GP offered but I passed.
Sorry to pry but why wouldn't they tell you? Stringing you along?
I hate when therapists do that never tell you what's really wrong, you can understand and move Forward and not need them anymore. Same thing happened to me.
@lilafeldman8630 ya it was the most annoying thing. They said they don't like to label anyone. After I kept insisting years into the therapy they told me cptsd. It totally made sense given my childhood dynamics. It's a poor tactic, but I think they may use it if they are unsure of dx for some reason.
@@shimmer8289 just talk you in circles. No wonder people need meds.
@crakhaed the only reason they gave was they didn't want to label people. I did, after about 14 years learn my dx after persistent inquiries. Must be a new way they approach therapy Or at the time they were unsure which dx fit me.
Always interesting
Thanks for the update.
Thank you ❤
This happened a few towns over. I do psychiatric nursing. Nobody gets ambien anymore. They gave her the wrong meds and didn't monitor her properly. I blame the providers. We ALWAYS monitor postpartum very closely. Her meds were insane and someone should have insisted on collaborating with other providers. I would have. I would have been calling the last provider. I would have insisted on getting releases to soeak with all her care providers. Or i would have filed with DCF. Someone dropped the ball and everyone that treated her is freaking out right now because they know it.
How many women kill their kids though ?
The psychotic ones?? She was overmedicated and temporarily insane. @@vibrantvibes6185
@@vibrantvibes6185a lot more then you think
As usual Dr Grande has nailed it.
Woman had full access to mental health services, was receiving treatment and still murdered 3 kids. For everyone's safety she should probably stay behind bars for awhile.
First comment I’ve seen say this, not much mention of those babies. We can’t just overlook the deaths of three babies who had their entire lives ahead of them taken away. She should never be released. How will we ever know she won’t do it again if nobody could see her spiraling in this case?
Moot point...She has stated she doesnt want to live and will end it if given the chance. @@LizzyAnn904
Exactly
She also had the capacity to plan out the murders while her husband left to go get food. I don't feel sorry for her.
The problem was that she had access to full mental health care - her doctors are idiots who constantly changed around with her medication as if they don’t understand that meds aren’t a magic happy pill - they literally cause neurochemical changes in your brain that can take weeks to reverse or change. Furthermore, meds can have opposing effects on each other - that’s why you NEED to taper off any psychiatric medication you take GRADUALLY and then GRADUALLY start taking doses of the new medication until you get to the desired end dosage (best if you can take a break in between starting new meds). It’s like they don’t understand basic human physiology despite that being what they studied for 4 years during med school and 3 years during residency.
Her doctors did NOT take this approach btw - her lawyer touched on how insanely negligent they were in changing her medication and prescribing her so many different meds in such a short amount of time.
This case should be an alarm of how medication is doled out in treating mental health issues in people - psychiatrists are some of the most jaded, lacking in common sense and critical thinking skills people I have ever encountered in my life. They have such little understanding of the nuanced ways in which all the meds they prescribe like candy can affect a person neurochemistry on a long term basis. Hell they don’t even understand how 90% of the medication they prescribe actually works or the complete physiological effects it has on people. They just think meds = no emotions, ok must be good for you.
I have bipolar disorder and depression so trust me - if I listened to the insane and stupid approaches my psychiatrists took to treating me and didn’t do my own research and then presented it and the studies to back up my claims to my jaded psychiatrists, I would have ended up like a statistic like most of the people with bipolar disorder where 50% of them end up reporting that their prescribed meds dont work and they are labelled as treatment resistant.
Dr Grande you did not mention the phone call the husband had with his wife while the husband was at the CVS. He said she sounded out of breath and distracted. This was after he left
(5:15) and before he arrived home (6:09).
She was completely coherent not in any distress. He had no indication that she was in the middle of whatever she was doing.
Yep. He skipped over a lot of details and is clearly biased.
You skipped over a lot of details. Everyone in the comments feeling sorry for HER yet it’s those three precious babies that were killed by their own mother. Imagine 6 year old Cora and little Dawson being strangled with an exercise band by her own Mama. I bet none of you would be filled with sympathy if Daddy did this. She was completely coherent when she took the lives of the children. Search warrants revealed she had been researching "how to kill" and she kept a journal. She also deliberately sent her husband farther away so she had more time.
Justice for these 3 babies.
Its rare for me to sympathize with people who commit these kinds of crimes but in this case I think this was a over prescribed induced psychotic episode. These drugs are really powerful and their handed out by Dr.s like candy who believe there's a pill for every ill. They are trained to do so in a lot of cases instead of solving the underlining issues a person might have in a way that wont significantly affect their biological chemistry.
I agree and one of the thoughts I had was, at what point does the prescribing physician become responsible? And what does that look like? Is it getting in trouble with the board, is it getting charged with a crime, is it a slap on the wrist? I think in extreme cases of overprescribing like this some type of remediation with the physician should be considered. Telling a patient to take benzos, ambien, and antipsychotics all at once is downright negligent.
Our medical schools are largely funded by pharma. And you can look on the u.s. department of justice website....type "pharmaceutical" into the search box at the top, and it'll list all the times they've gone after doctors who took kick-backs for prescribing meds. There are great doctors out there! But some of them are taking payments for dispensing more drugs.
Agree 👍
I'm not sure. A lot of pre-meditation seems to have gone into this. Sending the husband away? Acting like everything was fine? I'm sure the meds played a role and either planted or amplified some bad emotions and thoughts in her head, but she knew full well what she was doing. I guess my question is, if she was capable of methodically carrying this out, then she was capable of telling her husband, "'I'm messed up. I'm having bad thoughs. Take me away to be hospitalized." Instead she lets him think she's hunky dory and sends him on errands so she can strangle the kids one by one in the basement.
@@automnejoy5308Agree. The amount of people who make excuses for her when she belongs in prison.
I think when people say they are anxious and/or depressed, especially women and children, they are saying, ‘My life needs to be changed’. Maybe someone is abusing them, or they want a different type of lifestyle. A major lifestyle change. Perhaps they are just creating a happy facade, and it is wearing thin. Drugs may make the ache, slightly less pronounced, but it can’t create happiness. She probably needed a support assistant, similar to a mental health bodyguard.
Even therapy has very limited benefits, if the unease is great enough. The trouble with counseling is it wants to create ways to accommodate the current situation. It doesn’t lend itself to gigantic shifts in the status quo. ( The therapists that they used on Sister Wives are good representations of standard therapy. Lots of talking with little substance; no discernible change, the current status undisturbed.)
Dr. Grande you're the best
Doc, talking about drugs vs. counseling. I tried both. The drugs I quit taking after about a week. The counseling didn't either because I liked my therapist, and we just talked about art etc. I self-healed. Came to the conclusion that I would trace the symptom and all the circumstances around it back to the root cause (it's always interpersonal). And it's always the same conclusion. That shit is over, and it has no power over me anymore. I have vastly oversimplified the course I have taken. Also I might add, the healing began in 82. But I have been successful. I have not suffered from depression in over 2 years and my anxiety is only 5% of what it was. Of course, I am a fighter and my motto is NEVER GIVE UP AND KEEP FIGHTING. I mean that to the core. If you live by it you can't fail.
Based on my own experience, medication should not be prescribed without some kind of counseling plan. A counselor can monitor the effects of the medication better than the prescriber and patient.
The American system is too dependent on medication and it should absolutely be the other way around.
I am 100% with Dr. Grande on this, thanks for addressing this. I wish most professionals did.
I am a proponent of medication. I am also a staunch advocate for mental health counseling. I think the two need to work together to achieve best outcomes, rather than throw drugs at the issue and get on with your day. I will always be grateful for my meds, and for the counseling I received that gave me the tools I need to handle my issues. This is so sad.
That many med changes in less than a year is insane.
It’s actually pretty common. I was on 12 in 2 months during a psychotic episode I thank god for modern medicine if it was the early 1900’s I would have been thrown in an insane asylum
@erinwickware8066 I'm not against medication, honestly Seroquel saved my life. But holy shit that's a lot of medication whip lash.
I am so happy to hear you say this. I wanted to get into psychology, but I got so disillusioned by the over Over emphasis on drugs.
I agree with your observation about counseling over medication. I was over medicated for YEARS and did not stay consistent in therapy because of how drugged up I was on psychiatric meds. I could BARELY get out of bed and it made me a very inattentive parent because I was so exhausted. My daughter was well cared for, but I was not playing with Barbie’s with her or taking her to do as many activities as I normally would. I was diagnosed with bipolar2 as a teenager after a traumatic experience. This diagnosis was carried with me through the years despite NEVER having a manic episode, and I spent so many years in a fog. I finally got consistent went therapy and have since pursued getting the diagnosis removed from my medical record. I have always felt worse on medications than I have ever felt better on them. I’ve learned to process my childhood trauma and I’ve become a much better and more secure person overall.
I also think it’s so important to find a therapist that you connect with. One of the reasons I did not stay consistent in therapy is because I did not like my therapists. Now that I’ve been seeing a female therapist close in age to me, I feel understood and heard, and the therapeutic benefit has exceeded every expectation I had going in. I wish I could have had this insight at the beginning of my mental health journey.
My friend had psychotic post natal depression ..when asked by husband to pass baby bottle , she responded by biting huge chunk off her own arm n spitting it at him . This was at a family bbq 3 weeks after birth . It got drastically worse and she was hospitalised ... she never ever really recovered and now 30 years later shes permanently in mental health hospital... its a very tragic thing for everybody concerned .
oh wow, what a great analysis
As a mother of five grown children, I stayed home with my children. I could not imagine trying to go back to work and care for your children without having some anxiety. The pressure we put on ourselves to have an expensive house, beautiful cars, beautiful clothes, etc. is ridiculous. You can’t have everything and expect your mental health to survive! While raising my five children I had a lot of mental health problems. We have got to change the way the world expects women to do it all! Only by the grace of God did I survive. We need help.
Working in psychiatric practice, on the surface this looks like post-partum psychosis, and a TON of missed opportunities. This isn’t so much a problem of drugs, it is a problem of the wrong medication for the wrong diagnosis. Could she have been manic? VERY few of my GAD patients go two days w/o sleep. Was there not depression? And new depression in the FIRST YEAR is PP depression unless proven otherwise. Sloppy Dx, poor follow-through, inadequate knowledge base (assumed, of course). Easy for you or I to armchair quarterback here, but I have treated several PP depression, some with psychosis, some with ego dystonic homicidal ideation. Those are ALWAYS emergencies, you cannot treat them like one might a suicidal person. I totally agree on the therapy piece, but another obstacle is massive shortage of psychotherapy clinicians. And then, SO FEW Masters level therapists know almost anything about diagnosis. At all. I bet if you quizzed many therapists they would be unaware of the immense risk space entered when clients have homicidal post partum ideations. So tragic. But like the flight channels say, the holes in the Swiss cheese sadly lined up. Also to blame, poor mental health training for all clinicians, and psychiatrists who are seeing people every 10 minutes to satisfy managed care overlords. We got problems!
And one last thing about the anxiety piece. I wonder how much insight she demonstrated? I would bet there were soft delusional thought categorized as “anxiety.” So few people pursue follow-up questions. And while there were many drugs involved, none mentioned really interfere with reality testing. I agree, benzos right away is a mistake. Psychotherapy for sure, by physicians AND therapists. But the rest of the drugs were not so potent to be “causing” a problem to the point of misdiagnosis. If an antidepressant evokes mania, you are likely somewhere on the bipolar spectrum. This is so sad!
Great post!
Can you help me understand why other women in her position (4+ psychiatric drugs + postpartum) don’t go on to do something horrible? She’s an anomaly, but why?
& working as a nurse in OB likely didn’t help w the anxiety. We saw so many horrific things 😭
I also think that maybe having a child and losing your whole life you had before is just depressing. No time for yourself,no sleep, no contact with adults...and you're supposed to be just so happy about it!
No thanks to that.
I love these types of grande videos
Best therapy for many problems... a good friend ready to listen.
Depression and psychosis are severe illnesses.... It has nothing to do with having someone to talk to or just "being moody".
@@amrahfusion I wrote for many problems, not for all problems.
Very true, and a friend who understands that many illnesses of this type causes a person to self isolate and will be a little pushy about meeting up and checking in!
Not everyone has good friends though.
I don't want friends. Just more stress.
I completely agree with everything in the video and PP psychosis is scary. I’ve seen it 2-3x (as an Obgyn) and people who were completely fine before birth just become completely different.
That said, the first time I heard about this case was when her husband ran a marathon just a few months later. If you run a 3.5 hr marathon, I have suspicions about just how much you were there supporting your partner. Maybe he did practice runs with a few kids in a jogging stroller, but I suspect she may have needed more help. I’m admittedly biased because I’m a mom and he’s a dad.
We have taken so much care away from childbirth and postpartum care. These awful cases are a result of that. My heart aches for them and other families going through through this.
Thank you for your comments on counselling and assessing clients for root causes. As an addendum to your list, depression, anxiety and suicide ideation are also linked to domestic violence. Something that can be overlooked. Much well-wishing to you in your work.
Poor babies ❤ rip 😢
I believe therapy and psychiatry should go hand-in-hand, when both are called for. A competant psychiatrist will prescribe in a way that the patient can get relief WHILE working with a therapist to examine their condition and develop insight. I have experienced the success of this combination.
Lord this is a nightmare! Details are hard to hear.
Thank you for your honesty. Two of my friends died from promiscuous prescribing. It wasn't all the doctor's fault. My friends demanded fast, fast relief. :(
Interesting how when a mother Kills her children everyone looks for some external motivation, depression,drugs,psychosis etc.
When a man commits the same act,
He’s immediately a monster and no external or internal influences can be considered in the slightest.
Because childbirth affects the chemical balance in a woman. When the chemicals in our brains become imbalanced or totally out of wack, ppl become insane, literally.
Men also have imbalances for various reasons. But those reasons are never because their mind and body have been transformed. Except sometimes in cases of over-using steroids.
I hope this helps you understand the complex nature of childbirth.
@@Don.tKillTheMessangermen can experience psychosis too what are you talking about?
@erinwickware8066 If you'd read my comment you would've seen that I do talk about men suffering form psychosis.
No excuses given for Chad Doerman. Good point.
@@Don.tKillTheMessanger some women can also use that as an excuse tho right? Women are people. There are good and bad. Not all women are angels. Some are evil demons. Excusing any and every woman who murders their child makes zero sense. Each case must be taken on its own merits
Wow! I’m pretty convinced it was all the meds! Her original symptoms sound just like mine. General anxiety. Maybe some sleepless nights now and then. Extra worried for her kids ect… I even struggled with panic attacks at my worst. I was prescribed several meds that I never felt comfortable taking after looking up the side effects. I tried one and felt numb and off so immediately got off of it. Instead I went to counseling and began long distance running. I cannot tell you how incredible long distance running is for anxiety! I started walked long distance and when that became bored I started jogging. My symptoms became almost undetectable. combined with counseling. I would be very cautious of taking meds for anxiety unless extreme cases
This is so sad. It can be hard lto find the right kind of help and then be able to afford it.
This debate of counseling vs medication is valid, but one thing that’s not being discussed here is the cost. One visit to a doctor and medication costs substantially less than weekly counseling sessions over time. The financial barrier is what stops many people accessing mental health care aside from medications.
Most relevant comment on here
Counselors don't accept insurance. Not everyone can afford $200/week. You have to do a lot of homework to find someone who has a sliding scale fee or is overseeing an intern.
Is this a repost?
@tylernaturalist6437 Can you read? And/or comprehend what you read? It is an UPDATE bruh!
@@raymaharaj4502 Original poster has a point though. It's an update of a very recent Dr. Grande post and, in my opinion, the "update" did not add a lot.
@raymaharaj4502 OPs point is this update was posted BEFORE today, so this is clearly a reupload of the update on this case 🤦♀️
@@raymaharaj4502no need to be unkind
Dr. Grande is prolly the hardest working TH-camr, and if you watch him regularly you’d know this. He doesn’t need to repost old Shyt guys, but yes I do acknowledge that there was not much of an update rather than a rehash of the original post. I don’t care though because he DID just post a new video, so he is styll my favourite no matter what.
Thanks for explaining so well. I relate to her story much unfortunately. Was given psychiatric medication at a young age. Many failed children.
I'm very torn on this case. I definitely think people are overmedicated. I'm in healthcare and it disgusts me as to how many medications are given and then more medications to counteract the side effects of the initial medication. That said, she's a nurse. And you don't have to be a nurse to have common sense. Her babies are dead and she planned it. Then she made a half hearted suicide attempt. I'm not sure everyone is to blame to the exclusion of Lindsey.
Always enjoyed Dr. Grande's analysis, but I really like this new, slightly less formal presentation.
He never normally reposts!
Oh damn, I thought there was another update 😅 he should label re-uploads if there is a notable change between them so I know if I should rewatch 😅
Counseling damaged me because several therapists thought that I lied about experiencing workplace harassment and abuse. So I was given Rx which led to extreme fatigue.
Why did he repost this?
I've been in treatment for years, slowly finding the right medications for me. I've experienced a lot of side effects, from brain fog to mood swings to tardive dyskenesia and lots in between. Some of us really do need medication, even a lot of medication or many medications, to function and be healthy, but I am a firm believer in counseling too, and medication should be approached with caution and carefully monitored.
so many people see a therapist they don't vibe with, or have a negative experience with therapy, & write it off completely. the therapeutic alliance is important. think about it: do you mesh well with every single person you meet? would you establish a close relationship with any random person? therapists are people. if you don't vibe with them, have them refer you out or look into finding someone else. a good therapist will do check-ins to make sure you are getting what you need. not vibing with the first therapist you see is fairly common, it's happened to me too. but once i found someone, it helped so much. i think there needs to be more awareness about this, because i've seen too many people say they gave up on therapy because they didn't like the person they saw.
I think it gives them what they think is a good excuse for not dealing with their problems.
My mother had post partum depression to the point of psychosis and was afraid of harming us or herself
Post partum depression and fatigue are enough on their own, but stress, a new baby, and mixed medications can make someone snap and have a mental crisis whereas they may have never had one. Point being, it’s hard to say unless it was us in that exact situation.
But she didn’t snap, she planned everything
I don't know if this goes against client privilege or not, but why couldn't the counselor have told her husband not to leave her alone with the kids. If somebody along the line had told him that just out of precaution, this wouldn't have happened.
There is something about her and this case that makes my blood boil. I have a really hard time siding with mental health here. There is something about how she did things that does not fit.