Just got another subscriber!,great video's,great teaching!!!,im now definitely interested in buying a predator 224 after seeing how beefy the block was,and ill be utilizing your vids and teaching to help me do a build for a mini bike,thanks again!!👏👍
@@KentuckyFriedFixes i ended up moving on to working on Buell Motorcycles mainly Built a few cool minibikes as a teen May jump back in now that the aftermarket has exploded
Drive the whole thing out from the outside in then put a dab of lock locktite on the shaft drive the pin back in until it feels level with the back side of the casting then anything sticking up outside cut with a cutoff grinder
Thanks for the constructive criticism! I have gotten a bit better with the camera work since this video was made. The 224 Predator build is the first build video on the channel so I was learning a bit about how the camera should be situated. Thanks again.
Yep, it's funny, squish for 2 strokers, it makes sense as they use a piece of soldier to "squish" to get their clearance numbers. Quench for 4 strokers. It's the same measurement just by a different name and method of getting the measurement. Thanks!
New to your content and I must say I’m loving it. I have a handful of creators that I enjoy and I have seen all there videos so I’m glad I found yours.
Hi Brad! The stock rod is only good to about 6K RPM. Anything over that is a roll of the dice. The 265 cam I used on this build will easily turn 7K+ RPM. With that cam and a stock rod it wouldn't take long before the stock rod breaks. Now if you can limit the RPM to around 6K with a rev limiting coil, you might be ok, but still, you know what I mean. There is no substitute for a billet rod. (and a good cam needs more RPM to make power anyway.)
I have a predator 224 I just ordered a stage 2 kit from gopowersports are all the torque specs the same for the connecting rod also flywheel and side cover if so can you please tell me what they are thanks any help would be appreciated
Without knowing exactly what parts they included in their "kit" I can't tell what the torque specs will be. You'll need to contact those guys to find the correct torque specs. I don't know what you'll be getting and I wouldn't want to tell you wrong by guessing.
THANKS for this info, I can't believe these engines or other suppliers don't make those thin helpers that fit between the rod caps & cap bolts that you can bend the tabs to keep the cap bolts from backing out
Did you have to do a bunch of clearancing to get the stuff to fit? My buddies are saying that you gotta clearance the rod and the cam, that’s just scary to me; on the fence about getting a 224 or a 212 cause I have a few 212’s already but no 224’s but I don’t wanna do any clearancing if I don’t have to
Hi Troy! Yes Sir, there's a lot of clearance work to do when you build a 58mm stroke engine with a 70mm bore. The 72mm bore engine blocks require much less clearance work and with the 58mm crankshaft make a 236cc engine. Strokers can be a pain to work with but anyone can build one. It just takes time and patience to get it how it needs to be.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes thanks! I’ve been talking to a few people about the 224 now cause I just picked one up today, they actually make direct drop in kits for the 224 now so you don’t have to shave the block and weaken it
Hi Ricky! The stock lifters will work but they are just a bit longer than the aftermarket lifters that are included with the 265 Banzai cam kit. I used the shorter aftermarket lifters to keep my rocker geometry about the same at max lift. (the aftermarket lifters are also lighter weight) Remember we're going from .224 lift to .265 lift, it's not enough to make a big difference in your rocker geometry but the shorter aftermarket lifters keep your rocker geometry aligned better, and they're lighter weight, so why not.
Hi Jonah! You have to check the clearance between the rod and the cam on every build. I was lucky in that my Banzai 265 cam was ground on a good casting. It was small and had plenty of clearance between the cam and the rod without having to grind for clearance on the camshaft. Most of the time and for most aftermarket cams, you'll have to grind the camshaft to clear the crankshaft on stroker builds. It's not difficult though, just match it up with the stock 224 cam and clearance the same areas. I use a bench grinder and sometimes a disc grinder. I'll be showing this process in an upcoming build with a little larger profile camshaft.
Hi I'm building a 224, I'm just wondering if the parts I got for it wont blow it up, what I already have on it is a governor delete, oil censor delete, cast aluminum fly wheel rated for 10k rpm, billet rod, 18lb valve springs and a mikuni clone round slide. I ordered a .01 head gasket, 22lb valve springs, and a 265 hot cam. ill do the necessary clearancing, but I'm just wondering if I need anything else for my setup to run reliably.
Double check the quench distance to find out what thickness on the head gasket you need. I'd go with .035 quench (or squish). Anything closer than that may allow the piston to contact the flat area of the head. It mostly depends on the parts you use for your build. This 224 engine combination of parts is listed in the description. I ended up using a .045 thick head gasket because the piston was .010 above deck at TDC. This had my quench distance set at .035.
Hi Johnny! The 272 Mongoose cam I have in hand will work with a minimum clearance work on the center of the camshaft. The lobes will clear without any issue so no work has to be done to the lobes, it's the center of the camshaft you have to look at closely. Great cam!
I’ll be commenting often over the next couple weeks I’m doing a build similar and like I said you proven to be educated and responsive. Next question is when getting flat top position and billet parts with hot 265 cam do you think I need a thicker gasket also or could I get away with the stock one with flat top piston?
Hi Thomas! If you use the long rod build, you'll need to measure exactly how much the piston is above deck to determine your head gasket thickness to set your quench (or squish as some call it). I'd suggest sticking with about .035 thousandths between the piston and the head. As an example if the piston is .010 above the deck, you'll need a .045 thick head gasket, .045 - .010 = .035 quench (or squish).
@@KentuckyFriedFixes ok it’s all making sense thanks again an again my guy ! So you suggest .035 quench the quench is essentially the space between the piston at TDC and the bottom side of the head?
Hi Thomas, that's exactly right. That space between the top of the piston at TDC and the flat surface of the head is the "quench". If you stick to .035 and above quench on an OHV build you shouldn't have any issues with hot spots in the cylinder.
I used an arc rod and tillitson flat top piston. Ended up .025-.027 in the hole. Should be good to run a .010 head gasket or maybe a little thicker haven't decided yet. It is a dirt drag motor
@@KentuckyFriedFixes no lol I had to take some off the crank weights. I had to remove the most off the crank weights and cam. Between the lobes and off the side of the intake lobe. Top and bottom of cylinder weren't too bad on my build. Only had to remove a little.
Thanks Steve! Great info! Those 58mm stroke cranks aren't very builder friendly for sure! The block on mine needed mostly widening out of the factory cut at the top so the rod would clear. I chose to notch the cylinder at the bottom. Even though my rod cleared it was still too close for comfort. Some cams will clear without modifications. I'm planning to try either a 252 Rattlesnake or a 272 Mongoose on the next one. I like the looks of the lobe profile on those, like the 265 Banzai, they're small lobe cams, ground really close to the center. Regarding the piston though, I may still try either a .550 or .570 with a std length billet rod. I think I can trim (shorten) the skirt on the lathe for clearance and lighten it at the same time. You got me thinking. Thanks for your input Steve!
@@stevefavero3204 I've got a stock length EC billet rod I may use in the next 224 build. I do have an ARC stock length rod too. It seemed to me the bump on the ARC rod causes it to have issues with cam clearance. The dipper is also a bit close to the back of the block. I hope ARC comes out with another rod for these 224 builds. Something around 3.343 length and a little more clearance friendly would be great.
I know it seems that way, but the dipper on the billet rod does reach the oil and lubricate the engine just fine. The main reason for shortening the dipper on the rod design is to keep it from hitting the block at high RPM. The cranks on these things really do bow and flex at high RPM, most people can't believe it. It's funny how they stay together, seems like they're trying to tear themselves apart. I didn't believe it either until I learned my lesson about crank flex the first time one of my engines broke the dipper off on the bottom of the pan. 1980, 4hp Briggs, metal dipper dug a groove into the bottom of my block before finally breaking off. Shame really, if it could have held on just a bit longer it would have finished machining the clearance it needed. LOL Thanks.
So I got a Fire265 cam for my 224 and that sucker is not fitting. The cam rod ends are measuring about 1/100th of an inch bigger. The original cam is measuring 0.54 on my caliper and the Fire265 is measuring 0.55. Do think there is anyway I could sand the Fire265 down to fit or should I just try to sell the fire and go with something different?
Mark, sorry for the delay I'm having issues with placing comments for some reason they're bleeding together. If your new cam diameter measures .550 some will be .549 or can be more or less by a thousandth or two. It's a great idea to measure cam diameters as some Predator engines may have the larger .559 diameter shaft. As long as you're within a thousandth or two of the .549 for your 224, you'll be fine, now *if your cam diameter measures close to .559, the cam is likely for the predator 212 non hemi and won't fit your 224.*
Looks like you possibly could remove some material of the oil sensor mount tabs that would allow the sensor to drop closer to the back of the case? OR, where the sensor interferes with the rod could some of the sensor be trimmed???
Since changing the rod and piston, how hard would it be to re-balance the crank to match? I imagine that would have to be done at a machine shop. Also wonder how worth it would be... Maybe i should get back to work also....
Hi Robert. Great Question and thinking! This one won't be balanced. The stock rods will average around 130 grams in weight and the billet rod is 135 grams without the insert bearings. The stock piston weighs in around 158 grams and the Wildcat piston I used in the build weighs in at 138 grams. So overall, we've reduced the reciprocating weight somewhere around 15 grams. Usually, if you reduce the reciprocating weight, the engine will run smoother and live longer at higher RPM without rebalancing. (I'm sure you already know this but some reading this won't) I'm on board will a full rebalance when building a fresh new race engine but this engine project won't require that amount of extra investment to be viable. That was one of my goals when considering the parts for this combo. We've actually helped it with the lighter new parts on the top end (rod +5g, piston -20G = 15g loss) and it does run noticeably smoother now. A good kart engine shop will have the equipment to balance. It's not cheap to do though, probably $100 to $200+ depending on where you're at. Thanks!
Hi Jugflyer 87! To run on 91 I'd probably remove a bit from the top of the piston during the build to get it either at "0" deck or just below deck a bit. This build as is will put the piston around +.010 or so above deck. You could also go with a thicker head gasket or stack a stock head gasket on top of a copper one to reduce the compression a bit. It wouldn't take much to drop the compression enough to be happy with 91. Also the 265 Banzai cam in this build only makes power up to around 72-7500 RPM. I now prefer the Mongoose 272 for anything going to 8000+, it has 245 duration vs the Bazai's advertised 235. Thanks!
@@DatHondaBoi223 The stock head gasket the came on my 224 was .050 thick. You really need to measure the deck height/piston relationship exactly to be precise. Try to maintain a .035 minimum quench distance between the top of the piston and the bottom of the head. In my 224 build parts combo the piston is above deck almost +.010 so I use a .045 minimum thickness for the head gasket. A .050 will work too. If you used the same parts as I did and run your timing around 28 degrees you'll probably be fine with 93 octane depending on your altitude of course. I tried 93 in mine and I found that I need around a 95 octane fuel at 650 feet above sea level or it pulls the starter rope from my hand more often than not (too much kickback). I add a little additive to 93 fuel to increase the octane, but just a little synthetic 2 cycle oil mixed in the fuel can do wonders too.
Hi Sam! I believe I did cover why I chose not to use the ARC rod. It was really wrong for this build. I probably should have gone into more detail though for the reasons I did not choose the ARC for this build. The ARC rods hit everything everywhere and require much more clearance work on the block. They're also shorter in length than the EC rod causing piston to crank clearance issues. That's why I share the exact parts I use for a particular build, with the 224 Predator the best choice is the # 8281 EC Pinnacle rod (used in this build). Don't get me wrong, I do like ARC rods and their pressure feed oil system dipper, but in the 58mm stroke 70mm bore builds, they have clearance problems in too many places IMO.
10:12 Having worked 40+ years in QC in a Lawnmower MFG plant may I humbly suggest a VERY much more precise way to check that dimension? I could email it to you with parts needed, the .003 difference you get can VERY WELL be the way & angle you are holding the calipers, been there done that
Hi Numa, I have dial indicators and magnetic stands, but most guys don't have those. I try to show a simple method that will work so the average guy with a $19.95 dial caliper can get within a thousandth or two. Good eye! Thanks!
I checked my piston to deck clearance on my 224 block and I am 25 ten-thousandths in the hole with piston rock at tdc set with a dial indicator on all factory components. I'm looking to install a 308 cam with 1.3 ratio rockers. Thinking I will need 36lb valve springs with the rockers to prevent valve float, but not entirely sure. Anyone reading this have a recommendation on valve springs? 36lb single or dual springs? Heavier than 36lb needed? 36lb to heavy?
Hi Jon, a few quick questions. Are you working with a stock rod build or a billet rod build? Is your piston sitting .0025 above deck or below deck? How many RPM do you want to turn max? Were you planning to use the stamped 1.3 rockers or the billet roller rockers? Sounds like a great discussion brewing!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes I'm going to be using pretty close to the same setup as you, billet rod, flat top piston. Currently I'm at .0025" in the hole with stock components. I was just reading on ec carbs discussion blog that a . 265 lift cam will go good with stock rocker ratio and factory valve sizes, and 1.2 or 1.3 ratio rockers would require a big valve head. so that pretty much rules out a 308 lift cam as the factory head would be the choke point without going to a 32/28 head or bigger. But most of their research and design was based off of a 212 pred. Wonder how a 224 pred changes those tests And if I go 308 or even 265 with ratio, it definitely wouldn't be with stamped as they're only good for about 26lb springs before failing. If I stay 1:1, I'll go with the champion shaft rockers, if I go ratio, I was looking into ec's rev rockers as they're cheaper than gage. I also plan on decking the head to about .080 thou valve/piston clearance to boost compression. Some go tighter, but I feel that's a safe number based on research. This build is for a flat track mini bike running on 3/8 mile circle tracks and smaller
Just got off the phone with EC and there recommendation is the 698 (275 lift) cam with 1.2 ratio rockers or 1.3 (might need to cut spring pockets) and 32lb dual springs. That should put power around the 3500 to 7800 rpm range and just gear the bike accordingly. Would definitely need to run ss valves and cm pushrods, with titanium caps if I can find them as they don't carry 5.5mm titanium atm. They mentioned they are phasing out the aluminum caps
@@jmangus83 Those sound like good options on the cam for sure. Smart move on the shaft rockers, the 1.3 stamped work ok but they're not expected to live with more than a 22LB spring and stock lift cam but for $8 or so a man can break one every now and then. I was looking at a cam the other day I think it was .265 or .275 lift but it has more duration than the .265 Banzai cam I used in this one, I think they called it the "Superman cam". Only thing concerns me is cam clearance with the 58mm stroke, I'll probably have to grind the side down to clear the rod.
I want one of these right now I'm building a 212 it gots a nock off carb and a free pipe I got I'm keeping it as much stock as possible just needed them to port it I did the valve pockets and ports today I did a lot on the hot side because the pipe is so big everything is port matched it flys it gots to be around double the power I'm going to try something it's probably going to be a first I'm going to get easy weld sticks and try to make the valve pockets smooth instead of that 90 I did round it a little it helped I probably ported the head 5 times lol to see when is to much I haven't got there yet tomorrow I'm going to port the intake more because I don't like the adapter so I'll probably make it as round as possible to make air flow better into the port and after that comes the easy weld sticks lol I hope it works it will be a game changer for me I also been wanting to polish my rod because that will make it stronger I don't have money for parts I can't really work I been really sick for over a year in a half stuck in bed I'm great full I can get around a little just hope it goes away or one of my doctors find out what's wrong can't wait to be 100% ripping again
Austin it sounds like you're building a screamer. Let me know how those weld sticks go. I've tried the old versions of the aluminum torch weld sticks and they didn't work out for me. This has been several years ago though and they may have progressed since then. I don't think you have to spend lots of money to get a decent running engine. The stock rods will live to 6800 RPM with just a bit of trim work and polishing. The main thing I've found is that all good running engines start with a good plan. Sounds like you're working yours out now. Thanks!
At the end of the video I laughed. So the EC carbs rod is close at the bottom but dead stop at the top. It's exactly opposite with the ARC clone rod. I just made it through the top but had a dead stop on the bottom. I also had to clearance the back of the block a touch because the scooper was clearing but too close. Had to clearance the intake lobe of the cam I'm using. When I get back to it I'll have to triple check everything. I don't have a way to measure but I think my crankshaft end play is a little too loose.
The first rod I tried was the ARC stock length, and like you I had clearance issues in more areas than with the EC. It hit everything inside the engine and I couldn't use the lighter Wildcat piston because it was too far down the hole at TDC. I really hope ARC makes a stroker rod for these 58mm stroked engines because I do like their dipper oiling design. But, I don't like the dipper digging holes in the back of my block or that bump on the front bashing my camshaft though. The length was an issue too, the piston was too close to the counterweights at BDC. Be careful if you're using any piston other than the Wildcat, those skirts will need trimmed for sure or it's "Mr. Piston skirt, meet Mr. counterweight". Until ARC makes a stroker rod to work with these, I'll be sticking with the EC rods.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes ooh yeah thanks for the reminder. I think I'm ok on the skirts but will have another look. I do agree that the EC rod is the better option at this point from what you and others have done or mentioned.
I basically bought the Wildcat stage 2 kit plus the Wildcat piston. I had the same problem with the top of the block. I takes quite a bit of removal at the top. As an aside I also noticed the tappets they sent with the bonzai cam are longer than stock. I decided against using them. My piston is pretty much even with the head. I'm having trouble starting the engine (many pulls) I get kickback frequently. It isn't valve lash as I have it set to zero for the exhaust. Spinning the flywheel by hand it gets very hard to turn AFTER the compression release closes. In other words it must be on the power stroke. No idea why. I even put the stock cam back in.
I wonder, which flywheel did you go with for your build? Aftermarket or stock? Some of the aftermarket flywheels have a ignition timing advance right out of the box. So if you use a flywheel key, it's still advanced on the ignition timing. Some flywheels require a matching coil too. I'm just curious because it sounds like your issue may be ignition timing related, a bit too much advance. If you run methanol, tons of ignition timing advance is good but not so good if you run gasoline. I'll be showing the timing key delete in part 3 and a small retard of the timing on the flywheel I use. The flywheel I use for this build has more timing advance than the stock flywheel. On the valve lash, I stick with the specs, since there's no way to advance or retard the camshaft on these about the only way you can be sure your camshaft is close to the degree in specs is by sticking to the recommended valve lash. On the Banzai cam it's .003 on the intake and .003 on the exhaust hot, then they recommend .002 on the intake hot of course. That's after break in I'm sure. I set both at .005 cold for the first start up and run in, then .003 hot IN and EX after the cam breaks in. On the lifters, I've seen both ways used. The aftermarkets I received with my Banzai cam are around 1.360" and the stock Predator 224 are 1.432", my Banzai cam kit lifters were .071 shorter than stock. It all depends on your rocker geometry and how it looks. I'll get into that a bit in part 3. Some guys end up going with custom length push rods when they change camshafts but I've found that most cam grinders want you to use their supplied lifters with the cam for a reason. Sometimes it works in your favor but other times....well. I'm sorry, this is turning into a book. I'll get outa here. Thanks for sharing!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes Thanks for the help. The kit came with a flywheel set to 34 degrees. What's the advance on the one you got? I've been suspicious of the advance on the billet flywheel I got. I was considering getting a modified key and seeing if it could be put in backwards to retard the timing. I haven't seen anybody do that so I was a bit leary. Also I misspoke. My lifters are the same as yours (Predator's are longer): 1.445" vs 1.361". I stuck with the stock because I assumed this was a difference with the Predator. I will be interested in your key delete video. I'm considering putting the stock flywheel back on to see if it makes a difference. Btw, yes I did get a new coil with the kit to replace the stock coil.
@@Core-vu6mc Glad to have you here! I love it when engine guys can get together and toss around some ideas and I appreciate any and all input and discussion. I try to learn something new every day. The cast Tillotson aluminum flywheel is around 17 or 18 degrees advanced over the stock flywheel. I did retard the timing a bit during the install based on the info from EC Carburetors website, it does seem about right to me. I didn't measure my advance because I didn't really want to break out the degree wheel on this build and this one doesn't need to be exact. Tools I'm using for this build are basic items most guys have laying around, like the dial caliper from HF etc, I wanted to keep it basic so the average guy can follow along and still build a decent engine without sinking a bunch of $ in tools. Thanks!
Me neither James. I just put the stocker back on to start the engine for the first time. It's not staying and I've not even revved it. I had originally planned to use a Tillotson cast aluminum PVL as they're BALCO certified approved and spin tested to 8500 RPM, but mine had a flaw in it I was not comfortable with running. So I paid a few extra bucks and ordered a billet. Any Honda clone flywheel will fit and the ARC 6619 is a good choice. Thanks!
Where can I find some budget friendly chassis for the predator builds? I see guys do this mini bikes or kart chassis. Does anyone sell a budget friendly option?
I doubt I'll go much over 7000 RPM. The cast flywheels are BALCO certified and spin tested to 8500 RPM. Of course depending on your application you could always go with a billet flywheel for around $100. I may end up going with a better flywheel if I change cams but the Tillotson aluminum flywheel will suit my needs for this build.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes turn that sucker to 8000+ i have a 212 that turns over 8000 rpms using arc rod and flywheel if it can handle it do it and if it does blow build it again but stronger
Iv got a 212 turning over 8k and its has been doing so very reliably for some time iv got a arc rod and flywheel stock 212 non hemi piston and bigger cam and ratio rockers
@@KentuckyFriedFixes the way i look at it is if it fails then its learning opportunitie but you should never under build if you know your gonna wanna keep turning it up and going stiffer springs then build it to handle 10,000 rpms but only turn 8 or 9 and it will be a reliable engine im sure my 212 could handle going to 36lb valve springs and turn up to 9k but to keep it from needing rebuilt even sooner im only turning 8 and running racing oil it is better to be over built for reliability
![[FULL EP.84] มึงแฉกูแฉ "โอ๊ต ปราโมทย์" จัดหนัก "ซานิ" ยับ! l ซานิเบาได้เบา l One Playground](/img/n.gif)
A lot of people apologize for a "long" 30 minute video but I enjoy them. Keep up the good work and I can't wait for the next video!
Thanks Brenda, you're too kind!
Think MOST don't care about time, they LOVE / WANT details !!! Really loving this series !
The longer vids are what I like gives more detail than some guys time lapse vids in my opinion. Good stuff thanks man
Welcome Gerald! I appreciate you!
Purple Hi Tack is the best. Put the head on with it and you can darn near take the bolts out
Just got another subscriber!,great video's,great teaching!!!,im now definitely interested in buying a predator 224 after seeing how beefy the block was,and ill be utilizing your vids and teaching to help me do a build for a mini bike,thanks again!!👏👍
Welcome Handy Hints! I love those 224 engines!
Fellow Kentucky native here
This is good stuff dude
Makes me miss the minibike days
Good deal. We need to bring back some mini bike events!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes i ended up moving on to working on Buell Motorcycles mainly
Built a few cool minibikes as a teen
May jump back in now that the aftermarket has exploded
Drive the whole thing out from the outside in then put a dab of lock locktite on the shaft drive the pin back in until it feels level with the back side of the casting then anything sticking up outside cut with a cutoff grinder
Great video!
Thank you Nina!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes hi friend,if you need any parts,pls contact me.I will send it to you.Thanks a lot.
@@ninayuan9703 Thanks for watching!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes Hope we will have a good cooperation.thank you as well.
Just found your channel and im loving your videos
Thanks Wes. Welcome!
I recently got one of these for my sons 120 sled, extremely helpful videos!!! Awesome job and thank you!!
Thanks Zach! You're too kind. Welcome buddy!
I don't know how many other people got sea sick from the camera movement but any new information about that motor went straight down the toilet.
Thanks for the constructive criticism! I have gotten a bit better with the camera work since this video was made. The 224 Predator build is the first build video on the channel so I was learning a bit about how the camera should be situated. Thanks again.
Awesome! She's gonna be a Ripper!
Awesome video! But I really wanna buy u a small impact haha
LOL! Thanks Chase, I did eventually buy a small impact for disassembly. It's much faster for sure. I appreciate you!
5:06 I here all the 2 stroke guys calling it squish gap.
Yep, it's funny, squish for 2 strokers, it makes sense as they use a piece of soldier to "squish" to get their clearance numbers. Quench for 4 strokers. It's the same measurement just by a different name and method of getting the measurement. Thanks!
Very nice vid.
Being a 2 stroke DIY guy, I learned a few things about 4 strokes.
I wouldn't know how to act working on an engine that is so clean.
New is nice! Cleaner hands for sure. Thanks!
New to your content and I must say I’m loving it. I have a handful of creators that I enjoy and I have seen all there videos so I’m glad I found yours.
Thanks David. I'm glad to have you here. Welcome.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes so with the channel name I assume you’re in Ky. I am in eastern Ky
@@davidfrancisco5311 Hi David. I'm in Central Ky, in the Mammoth Cave area, there seems to be a growing group of guys in Ky found here. LOL
Excellent videos, Chris! You would have made an awesome shop teacher.
Thanks Mick! High Schoolers give me ulcers LOL! Appreciate you watching buddy.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes
*_"High Schoolers give me ulcers"_*
😆😅😂🤣
Sukses video
Thank you.
I’m wanting to add cam 26 pound springs and billet fly wheel could I get away with not upgrading rod
Hi Brad! The stock rod is only good to about 6K RPM. Anything over that is a roll of the dice. The 265 cam I used on this build will easily turn 7K+ RPM. With that cam and a stock rod it wouldn't take long before the stock rod breaks. Now if you can limit the RPM to around 6K with a rev limiting coil, you might be ok, but still, you know what I mean. There is no substitute for a billet rod. (and a good cam needs more RPM to make power anyway.)
I gave you a subbed to your channel
Like your content but had to get you off 666 subs lol. Be blessed thanks for all the helpful Info
LOL! Thank you TexasPatriot! Working together to combat evil numbers everywhere. 🤣
I have a predator 224 I just ordered a stage 2 kit from gopowersports are all the torque specs the same for the connecting rod also flywheel and side cover if so can you please tell me what they are thanks any help would be appreciated
Without knowing exactly what parts they included in their "kit" I can't tell what the torque specs will be. You'll need to contact those guys to find the correct torque specs. I don't know what you'll be getting and I wouldn't want to tell you wrong by guessing.
Is the crank journal clone size or predator size
How did the crank journal mic out for bearing clearance
Hi Robbie, the bearing journal is clone size. Mine is 1.178 and 1.179, it's a little out of round.
THANKS for this info, I can't believe these engines or other suppliers don't make those thin helpers that fit between the rod caps & cap bolts that you can bend the tabs to keep the cap bolts from backing out
Numa that's a good point. I think they want to sell a new rod as often as possible. Thanks!
Did you have to do a bunch of clearancing to get the stuff to fit? My buddies are saying that you gotta clearance the rod and the cam, that’s just scary to me; on the fence about getting a 224 or a 212 cause I have a few 212’s already but no 224’s but I don’t wanna do any clearancing if I don’t have to
Hi Troy! Yes Sir, there's a lot of clearance work to do when you build a 58mm stroke engine with a 70mm bore. The 72mm bore engine blocks require much less clearance work and with the 58mm crankshaft make a 236cc engine. Strokers can be a pain to work with but anyone can build one. It just takes time and patience to get it how it needs to be.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes thanks! I’ve been talking to a few people about the 224 now cause I just picked one up today, they actually make direct drop in kits for the 224 now so you don’t have to shave the block and weaken it
Will the stock tappets work with new camshaft?
Hi Ricky! The stock lifters will work but they are just a bit longer than the aftermarket lifters that are included with the 265 Banzai cam kit. I used the shorter aftermarket lifters to keep my rocker geometry about the same at max lift. (the aftermarket lifters are also lighter weight) Remember we're going from .224 lift to .265 lift, it's not enough to make a big difference in your rocker geometry but the shorter aftermarket lifters keep your rocker geometry aligned better, and they're lighter weight, so why not.
Do you have to do any clearance just to put the Cam in?
Hi Jonah! You have to check the clearance between the rod and the cam on every build. I was lucky in that my Banzai 265 cam was ground on a good casting. It was small and had plenty of clearance between the cam and the rod without having to grind for clearance on the camshaft. Most of the time and for most aftermarket cams, you'll have to grind the camshaft to clear the crankshaft on stroker builds. It's not difficult though, just match it up with the stock 224 cam and clearance the same areas. I use a bench grinder and sometimes a disc grinder. I'll be showing this process in an upcoming build with a little larger profile camshaft.
Hi I'm building a 224, I'm just wondering if the parts I got for it wont blow it up, what I already have on it is a governor delete, oil censor delete, cast aluminum fly wheel rated for 10k rpm, billet rod, 18lb valve springs and a mikuni clone round slide. I ordered a .01 head gasket, 22lb valve springs, and a 265 hot cam. ill do the necessary clearancing, but I'm just wondering if I need anything else for my setup to run reliably.
Double check the quench distance to find out what thickness on the head gasket you need. I'd go with .035 quench (or squish). Anything closer than that may allow the piston to contact the flat area of the head. It mostly depends on the parts you use for your build. This 224 engine combination of parts is listed in the description. I ended up using a .045 thick head gasket because the piston was .010 above deck at TDC. This had my quench distance set at .035.
Great video
Thanks Conner! We're getting there.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes I can’t wait for part 3! Keep the videos coming
Will the mongoose 272 cam fit in a predator 224 max performance? Not much info online about this cam.?
Hi Johnny! The 272 Mongoose cam I have in hand will work with a minimum clearance work on the center of the camshaft. The lobes will clear without any issue so no work has to be done to the lobes, it's the center of the camshaft you have to look at closely. Great cam!
I’ll be commenting often over the next couple weeks I’m doing a build similar and like I said you proven to be educated and responsive. Next question is when getting flat top position and billet parts with hot 265 cam do you think I need a thicker gasket also or could I get away with the stock one with flat top piston?
Hi Thomas! If you use the long rod build, you'll need to measure exactly how much the piston is above deck to determine your head gasket thickness to set your quench (or squish as some call it). I'd suggest sticking with about .035 thousandths between the piston and the head. As an example if the piston is .010 above the deck, you'll need a .045 thick head gasket, .045 - .010 = .035 quench (or squish).
@@KentuckyFriedFixes ok it’s all making sense thanks again an again my guy ! So you suggest .035 quench the quench is essentially the space between the piston at TDC and the bottom side of the head?
Hi Thomas, that's exactly right. That space between the top of the piston at TDC and the flat surface of the head is the "quench". If you stick to .035 and above quench on an OHV build you shouldn't have any issues with hot spots in the cylinder.
I used an arc rod and tillitson flat top piston. Ended up .025-.027 in the hole. Should be good to run a .010 head gasket or maybe a little thicker haven't decided yet. It is a dirt drag motor
That should be a great combo! I was looking into a .550 flat top build for one of these! Did the skirts on the Tillotson flat top clear the crank ok?
@@KentuckyFriedFixes no lol I had to take some off the crank weights. I had to remove the most off the crank weights and cam. Between the lobes and off the side of the intake lobe. Top and bottom of cylinder weren't too bad on my build. Only had to remove a little.
Thanks Steve! Great info! Those 58mm stroke cranks aren't very builder friendly for sure! The block on mine needed mostly widening out of the factory cut at the top so the rod would clear. I chose to notch the cylinder at the bottom. Even though my rod cleared it was still too close for comfort. Some cams will clear without modifications. I'm planning to try either a 252 Rattlesnake or a 272 Mongoose on the next one. I like the looks of the lobe profile on those, like the 265 Banzai, they're small lobe cams, ground really close to the center. Regarding the piston though, I may still try either a .550 or .570 with a std length billet rod. I think I can trim (shorten) the skirt on the lathe for clearance and lighten it at the same time. You got me thinking. Thanks for your input Steve!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes mine is a 252 rattlesnake so it was that and ARC rod 6270 that gave me issues
@@stevefavero3204 I've got a stock length EC billet rod I may use in the next 224 build. I do have an ARC stock length rod too. It seemed to me the bump on the ARC rod causes it to have issues with cam clearance. The dipper is also a bit close to the back of the block. I hope ARC comes out with another rod for these 224 builds. Something around 3.343 length and a little more clearance friendly would be great.
Can’t have enough dipper length.
I know it seems that way, but the dipper on the billet rod does reach the oil and lubricate the engine just fine. The main reason for shortening the dipper on the rod design is to keep it from hitting the block at high RPM. The cranks on these things really do bow and flex at high RPM, most people can't believe it. It's funny how they stay together, seems like they're trying to tear themselves apart. I didn't believe it either until I learned my lesson about crank flex the first time one of my engines broke the dipper off on the bottom of the pan. 1980, 4hp Briggs, metal dipper dug a groove into the bottom of my block before finally breaking off. Shame really, if it could have held on just a bit longer it would have finished machining the clearance it needed. LOL Thanks.
So I got a Fire265 cam for my 224 and that sucker is not fitting. The cam rod ends are measuring about 1/100th of an inch bigger. The original cam is measuring 0.54 on my caliper and the Fire265 is measuring 0.55. Do think there is anyway I could sand the Fire265 down to fit or should I just try to sell the fire and go with something different?
Also your videos are amazing and thank you for the inspiration.
Mark, sorry for the delay I'm having issues with placing comments for some reason they're bleeding together. If your new cam diameter measures .550 some will be .549 or can be more or less by a thousandth or two. It's a great idea to measure cam diameters as some Predator engines may have the larger .559 diameter shaft. As long as you're within a thousandth or two of the .549 for your 224, you'll be fine, now *if your cam diameter measures close to .559, the cam is likely for the predator 212 non hemi and won't fit your 224.*
Looks like you possibly could remove some material of the oil sensor mount tabs that would allow the sensor to drop closer to the back of the case? OR, where the sensor interferes with the rod could some of the sensor be trimmed???
Since changing the rod and piston, how hard would it be to re-balance the crank to match? I imagine that would have to be done at a machine shop. Also wonder how worth it would be... Maybe i should get back to work also....
Hi Robert. Great Question and thinking! This one won't be balanced. The stock rods will average around 130 grams in weight and the billet rod is 135 grams without the insert bearings. The stock piston weighs in around 158 grams and the Wildcat piston I used in the build weighs in at 138 grams. So overall, we've reduced the reciprocating weight somewhere around 15 grams. Usually, if you reduce the reciprocating weight, the engine will run smoother and live longer at higher RPM without rebalancing. (I'm sure you already know this but some reading this won't) I'm on board will a full rebalance when building a fresh new race engine but this engine project won't require that amount of extra investment to be viable. That was one of my goals when considering the parts for this combo. We've actually helped it with the lighter new parts on the top end (rod +5g, piston -20G = 15g loss) and it does run noticeably smoother now. A good kart engine shop will have the equipment to balance. It's not cheap to do though, probably $100 to $200+ depending on where you're at. Thanks!
What changes would you make if you wanted to be able to run ethanol free 91 pump gas, but still be able to hit 8000 rpm or so?
Hi Jugflyer 87! To run on 91 I'd probably remove a bit from the top of the piston during the build to get it either at "0" deck or just below deck a bit. This build as is will put the piston around +.010 or so above deck. You could also go with a thicker head gasket or stack a stock head gasket on top of a copper one to reduce the compression a bit. It wouldn't take much to drop the compression enough to be happy with 91. Also the 265 Banzai cam in this build only makes power up to around 72-7500 RPM. I now prefer the Mongoose 272 for anything going to 8000+, it has 245 duration vs the Bazai's advertised 235. Thanks!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes if I’m near zero deck or just under could I use the stock head gasket? What gas is needed? Would 93 be sufficient?
@@DatHondaBoi223 The stock head gasket the came on my 224 was .050 thick. You really need to measure the deck height/piston relationship exactly to be precise. Try to maintain a .035 minimum quench distance between the top of the piston and the bottom of the head. In my 224 build parts combo the piston is above deck almost +.010 so I use a .045 minimum thickness for the head gasket. A .050 will work too. If you used the same parts as I did and run your timing around 28 degrees you'll probably be fine with 93 octane depending on your altitude of course. I tried 93 in mine and I found that I need around a 95 octane fuel at 650 feet above sea level or it pulls the starter rope from my hand more often than not (too much kickback). I add a little additive to 93 fuel to increase the octane, but just a little synthetic 2 cycle oil mixed in the fuel can do wonders too.
Why not mention the ARC Rod so we don’t go through the same issues!
Hi Sam! I believe I did cover why I chose not to use the ARC rod. It was really wrong for this build. I probably should have gone into more detail though for the reasons I did not choose the ARC for this build. The ARC rods hit everything everywhere and require much more clearance work on the block. They're also shorter in length than the EC rod causing piston to crank clearance issues. That's why I share the exact parts I use for a particular build, with the 224 Predator the best choice is the # 8281 EC Pinnacle rod (used in this build). Don't get me wrong, I do like ARC rods and their pressure feed oil system dipper, but in the 58mm stroke 70mm bore builds, they have clearance problems in too many places IMO.
10:12 Having worked 40+ years in QC in a Lawnmower MFG plant may I humbly suggest a VERY much more precise way to check that dimension? I could email it to you with parts needed, the .003 difference you get can VERY WELL be the way & angle you are holding the calipers, been there done that
Hi Numa, I have dial indicators and magnetic stands, but most guys don't have those. I try to show a simple method that will work so the average guy with a $19.95 dial caliper can get within a thousandth or two. Good eye! Thanks!
I checked my piston to deck clearance on my 224 block and I am 25 ten-thousandths in the hole with piston rock at tdc set with a dial indicator on all factory components. I'm looking to install a 308 cam with 1.3 ratio rockers. Thinking I will need 36lb valve springs with the rockers to prevent valve float, but not entirely sure.
Anyone reading this have a recommendation on valve springs? 36lb single or dual springs? Heavier than 36lb needed? 36lb to heavy?
Hi Jon, a few quick questions. Are you working with a stock rod build or a billet rod build? Is your piston sitting .0025 above deck or below deck? How many RPM do you want to turn max? Were you planning to use the stamped 1.3 rockers or the billet roller rockers? Sounds like a great discussion brewing!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes I'm going to be using pretty close to the same setup as you, billet rod, flat top piston. Currently I'm at .0025" in the hole with stock components. I was just reading on ec carbs discussion blog that a . 265 lift cam will go good with stock rocker ratio and factory valve sizes, and 1.2 or 1.3 ratio rockers would require a big valve head. so that pretty much rules out a 308 lift cam as the factory head would be the choke point without going to a 32/28 head or bigger. But most of their research and design was based off of a 212 pred. Wonder how a 224 pred changes those tests
And if I go 308 or even 265 with ratio, it definitely wouldn't be with stamped as they're only good for about 26lb springs before failing. If I stay 1:1, I'll go with the champion shaft rockers, if I go ratio, I was looking into ec's rev rockers as they're cheaper than gage.
I also plan on decking the head to about .080 thou valve/piston clearance to boost compression. Some go tighter, but I feel that's a safe number based on research.
This build is for a flat track mini bike running on 3/8 mile circle tracks and smaller
Just got off the phone with EC and there recommendation is the 698 (275 lift) cam with 1.2 ratio rockers or 1.3 (might need to cut spring pockets) and 32lb dual springs. That should put power around the 3500 to 7800 rpm range and just gear the bike accordingly. Would definitely need to run ss valves and cm pushrods, with titanium caps if I can find them as they don't carry 5.5mm titanium atm. They mentioned they are phasing out the aluminum caps
@@jmangus83 Those sound like good options on the cam for sure. Smart move on the shaft rockers, the 1.3 stamped work ok but they're not expected to live with more than a 22LB spring and stock lift cam but for $8 or so a man can break one every now and then. I was looking at a cam the other day I think it was .265 or .275 lift but it has more duration than the .265 Banzai cam I used in this one, I think they called it the "Superman cam". Only thing concerns me is cam clearance with the 58mm stroke, I'll probably have to grind the side down to clear the rod.
@Jon Angus 32LB springs will let you go up the RPM scale quite a bit! Sounds Great!
I want one of these right now I'm building a 212 it gots a nock off carb and a free pipe I got I'm keeping it as much stock as possible just needed them to port it I did the valve pockets and ports today I did a lot on the hot side because the pipe is so big everything is port matched it flys it gots to be around double the power I'm going to try something it's probably going to be a first I'm going to get easy weld sticks and try to make the valve pockets smooth instead of that 90 I did round it a little it helped I probably ported the head 5 times lol to see when is to much I haven't got there yet tomorrow I'm going to port the intake more because I don't like the adapter so I'll probably make it as round as possible to make air flow better into the port and after that comes the easy weld sticks lol I hope it works it will be a game changer for me I also been wanting to polish my rod because that will make it stronger I don't have money for parts I can't really work I been really sick for over a year in a half stuck in bed I'm great full I can get around a little just hope it goes away or one of my doctors find out what's wrong can't wait to be 100% ripping again
Austin it sounds like you're building a screamer. Let me know how those weld sticks go. I've tried the old versions of the aluminum torch weld sticks and they didn't work out for me. This has been several years ago though and they may have progressed since then. I don't think you have to spend lots of money to get a decent running engine. The stock rods will live to 6800 RPM with just a bit of trim work and polishing. The main thing I've found is that all good running engines start with a good plan. Sounds like you're working yours out now. Thanks!
At the end of the video I laughed. So the EC carbs rod is close at the bottom but dead stop at the top. It's exactly opposite with the ARC clone rod. I just made it through the top but had a dead stop on the bottom.
I also had to clearance the back of the block a touch because the scooper was clearing but too close. Had to clearance the intake lobe of the cam I'm using. When I get back to it I'll have to triple check everything. I don't have a way to measure but I think my crankshaft end play is a little too loose.
The first rod I tried was the ARC stock length, and like you I had clearance issues in more areas than with the EC. It hit everything inside the engine and I couldn't use the lighter Wildcat piston because it was too far down the hole at TDC. I really hope ARC makes a stroker rod for these 58mm stroked engines because I do like their dipper oiling design. But, I don't like the dipper digging holes in the back of my block or that bump on the front bashing my camshaft though. The length was an issue too, the piston was too close to the counterweights at BDC. Be careful if you're using any piston other than the Wildcat, those skirts will need trimmed for sure or it's "Mr. Piston skirt, meet Mr. counterweight". Until ARC makes a stroker rod to work with these, I'll be sticking with the EC rods.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes ooh yeah thanks for the reminder. I think I'm ok on the skirts but will have another look.
I do agree that the EC rod is the better option at this point from what you and others have done or mentioned.
Let me know how it goes and post some video too. The more info and builds on the Predator 224 the better!
I basically bought the Wildcat stage 2 kit plus the Wildcat piston. I had the same problem with the top of the block. I takes quite a bit of removal at the top. As an aside I also noticed the tappets they sent with the bonzai cam are longer than stock. I decided against using them. My piston is pretty much even with the head. I'm having trouble starting the engine (many pulls) I get kickback frequently. It isn't valve lash as I have it set to zero for the exhaust. Spinning the flywheel by hand it gets very hard to turn AFTER the compression release closes. In other words it must be on the power stroke. No idea why. I even put the stock cam back in.
I wonder, which flywheel did you go with for your build? Aftermarket or stock? Some of the aftermarket flywheels have a ignition timing advance right out of the box. So if you use a flywheel key, it's still advanced on the ignition timing. Some flywheels require a matching coil too. I'm just curious because it sounds like your issue may be ignition timing related, a bit too much advance. If you run methanol, tons of ignition timing advance is good but not so good if you run gasoline. I'll be showing the timing key delete in part 3 and a small retard of the timing on the flywheel I use. The flywheel I use for this build has more timing advance than the stock flywheel. On the valve lash, I stick with the specs, since there's no way to advance or retard the camshaft on these about the only way you can be sure your camshaft is close to the degree in specs is by sticking to the recommended valve lash. On the Banzai cam it's .003 on the intake and .003 on the exhaust hot, then they recommend .002 on the intake hot of course. That's after break in I'm sure. I set both at .005 cold for the first start up and run in, then .003 hot IN and EX after the cam breaks in. On the lifters, I've seen both ways used. The aftermarkets I received with my Banzai cam are around 1.360" and the stock Predator 224 are 1.432", my Banzai cam kit lifters were .071 shorter than stock. It all depends on your rocker geometry and how it looks. I'll get into that a bit in part 3. Some guys end up going with custom length push rods when they change camshafts but I've found that most cam grinders want you to use their supplied lifters with the cam for a reason. Sometimes it works in your favor but other times....well. I'm sorry, this is turning into a book. I'll get outa here. Thanks for sharing!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes Thanks for the help. The kit came with a flywheel set to 34 degrees. What's the advance on the one you got? I've been suspicious of the advance on the billet flywheel I got. I was considering getting a modified key and seeing if it could be put in backwards to retard the timing. I haven't seen anybody do that so I was a bit leary. Also I misspoke. My lifters are the same as yours (Predator's are longer): 1.445" vs 1.361". I stuck with the stock because I assumed this was a difference with the Predator. I will be interested in your key delete video. I'm considering putting the stock flywheel back on to see if it makes a difference. Btw, yes I did get a new coil with the kit to replace the stock coil.
@@Core-vu6mc Glad to have you here! I love it when engine guys can get together and toss around some ideas and I appreciate any and all input and discussion. I try to learn something new every day. The cast Tillotson aluminum flywheel is around 17 or 18 degrees advanced over the stock flywheel. I did retard the timing a bit during the install based on the info from EC Carburetors website, it does seem about right to me. I didn't measure my advance because I didn't really want to break out the degree wheel on this build and this one doesn't need to be exact. Tools I'm using for this build are basic items most guys have laying around, like the dial caliper from HF etc, I wanted to keep it basic so the average guy can follow along and still build a decent engine without sinking a bunch of $ in tools. Thanks!
I don't trust the stock flywheels on these engines, a bit too explode!
Me neither James. I just put the stocker back on to start the engine for the first time. It's not staying and I've not even revved it. I had originally planned to use a Tillotson cast aluminum PVL as they're BALCO certified approved and spin tested to 8500 RPM, but mine had a flaw in it I was not comfortable with running. So I paid a few extra bucks and ordered a billet. Any Honda clone flywheel will fit and the ARC 6619 is a good choice. Thanks!
Where can I find some budget friendly chassis for the predator builds? I see guys do this mini bikes or kart chassis. Does anyone sell a budget friendly option?
Craigslist and Facebook marketplace work good. Brandon over at Let's Go Fix it finds deals all the time.
7 to 8000 RPM ?? I think I'd build a 1/4 box around that engine, ya know they have those rated scatter shields on Drag race stuff incase they blow
I doubt I'll go much over 7000 RPM. The cast flywheels are BALCO certified and spin tested to 8500 RPM. Of course depending on your application you could always go with a billet flywheel for around $100. I may end up going with a better flywheel if I change cams but the Tillotson aluminum flywheel will suit my needs for this build.
@@KentuckyFriedFixes turn that sucker to 8000+ i have a 212 that turns over 8000 rpms using arc rod and flywheel if it can handle it do it and if it does blow build it again but stronger
Iv got a 212 turning over 8k and its has been doing so very reliably for some time iv got a arc rod and flywheel stock 212 non hemi piston and bigger cam and ratio rockers
@@madness_-yg3lw I like the way you think Spencer!
@@KentuckyFriedFixes the way i look at it is if it fails then its learning opportunitie but you should never under build if you know your gonna wanna keep turning it up and going stiffer springs then build it to handle 10,000 rpms but only turn 8 or 9 and it will be a reliable engine im sure my 212 could handle going to 36lb valve springs and turn up to 9k but to keep it from needing rebuilt even sooner im only turning 8 and running racing oil it is better to be over built for reliability
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