Why Do We Hunt Witches? feat. Megan Phelps-Roper, Nicholas Christakis, Tim Urban, and Luke Burgis
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มี.ค. 2023
- Host of The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling, Megan Phelps-Roper, sits down with Yale sociologist Nicholas Christakis, author and entrepreneur Luke Burgis, and cofounder of Wait But Why, Tim Urban, to discuss the mob mentality that has subsumed college campuses, publishing houses, medical organizations, and other elite American institutions. What are the underlying psychodynamics of the behavior we’re seeing? How has the internet exacerbated the problem? And what can we do to move forward?
Listen to all seven episodes of The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling:
Apple - apple.co/42RjkUT
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I'm really glad that the FP is continuing this conversation, which apparently we need to be having right now. The Witch trials podcast was wonderful and I learned a lot. Freedom of speech is absolutely necessary.
Even dissent about vaccines? As someone that took the vaccine I say yeah, freedom of speech is for everyone and everyone should abide with it's limits.
@@frankvilla547 Yes we should have freedom to speak against the vaccines!
But, just because an idea CAN be said, doesn’t mean it SHOULD. Just because you’re allowed to say something, doesn’t make it true, valid, or logical. “Trans people are transitioning to rape women in bathrooms” is legal to say, but it’s dangerously untrue, for example.
Anger and fear are more contagious than other emotions because they are directly linked to our survival. A person who couldn't feel anger or fear wouldn't live long outside of an extremely protected environment.
We need to be able to manage anger and fear without harming people, and to treat emotions as data rather than direction.
Megan Phelps-Roper, Nicholas Christakis, Tim Urban, and Luke Burgis: Thank you so much for moving this absolutely needed conversation forward! And Megan, thank you all the work you have done on The Witch Trials of J. K. Rowling!
Megan didn’t move the conversation forward. She gave further platform to a woman who is doing harm to trans people by spreading lies.
Thank you for this excellent, thorough, and important conversation. It should be heard everywhere- all we need is patience and an open mind- thank you, Megan Phelps-Roper, Nicholas Christakis, Luke Burgis, and Tim Urban, for your time. Thank you, Bari Weiss, for this Free Press.
The Witch trials podcast was excellent, would love to see more on this conversation!
Hopefully after this experience JK Rowling will feel more comfortable going on other podcasts with like-minded women like Louise Perry's Maiden Mother Matriarch podcast.
Great stuff! :)
Meagan, you have a real gift for interviewing and meditating discussions. Looking forward to more podcasts from you.
I agree! She also has such a soothing, easy-on-the-ears voice, which to my surprise ended up being one of my favourite parts of listening to The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling. I'd love it if she did audiobooks, too.
@@jovialnobody I thought the same while listening - had to rewind a couple of times because I was zoning out to it like asmr lol. @Pavo mediator is a perfect description, her calmness and willingness to listen to many different perspectives is vital for any conversation be it small or more global. She has inspired me to try and do the same.
I want to offer the highest praise possible for your work on "The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling." It was extremely well done and I think it will help open the minds of those who have been perhaps afraid to question the "She's a transphobic TERF" - nothing else to say - propaganda line that has been propagated ceaselessly. You opened up a much needed public conversation. Thank you!
Thank you for addressing these difficult conversations if nothing more than considering the tools to address them in your own life and community.
That was such a great observation by Tim, "One gap is a ton of people not saying what they're thinking. Another gap is a ton of people saying what they're not really thinking." Personally, I spend my day surrounded by those in the first group and it is so demoralizing. I really need these conversations, thank you. And, the podcast series was phenomenal. My respect for JK has only grown.
Loved the JK Rowling podcast series. Really brought me back and brought me full circle to the present. Masterfully made.
Many thanks for this high quality easy but expert discussion on why we still hunt modern witches. This much broader-scoped video is separate enough from the precediing (and superb) Witchcraft podcasts to be widely promoted without, one hopes, getting mobs to demonise it! It is a quick great way to learn how we fall into mobs ... & how we wise up too.
I think this is a good place to add a tangential recommendation to the world: A wonderful encyclopedia into JKR's huge personality, wisdom, philosophy and life experience is through her Cormoran Strike series of detective novels written under her pseudonym: Robert Galbraith. The TV series only give you the basic surface story. The long page-turning books open doors into scenarios of all kinds sharing closely lived and observed life and people and relationships. Maybe it's particularly British, but reading the books is more than a good story - it's like you've got a warm friendship at hand! 😊
Thanks, next on my reading list!
It's nice to see examples of measured, thoughtful, and nuanced conversations on these topics, because I find it so difficult personally to not get extremely anxious and angry when engaging with woke activism. Conversations like this are a vital roadmap to others on how to calmly and logically discuss these issues. Thanks to all!
Women have been afraid for our lives with very valid reasons
"When you have a sea of cowardice a little bit of courage goes a long way."
It sounds like a sentence we could have read in the Harry Potter books. So true and necessary!
Very good conversation. An important variation to the theme where we normally see the same actors repeating the same (valid or not) arguments and perspectives.
The student yelling at Nicholas Christakis reminded me of the Cultural Revolution in China. It is one thing to hold different opinions. It is another to engage in such behaviour. I speak as a card carrying lefty (literally).
I wonder if the kids in that mob are still like that today or if they have matured and seen the error of their ways!
This was a wonderful podcast. Thank you for continuing the conversation. I lived in Kansas so was well aware of Westboro's history. Megan did a fantastic job hosting this podcast.
This conversation was so very refreshing. Thank you!
Megan are you going to be doing more videos like this leading up to the epilogue episode of the Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling?
52:00 I've found that when I'm doing some random act of kindness, like stopping to help someone change a flat, helping fix something for an elderly neighbor, etc. Anything that is a burden to you and nothing is sought in return... I've now noticed that people tend to look to find an alternative motivation. Maybe not the person but the neighbors etc.
.
This is something that has developed over the last 5-10 years and has been extremely disconcerting to me. We are not "neighborly" anymore, we've turned inward or have forgotten that technology hasn't solved all problems (EG people assume that everyone has cell phones and therefore no one would need help when they get a flat tire, that they would just call someone)
Fantastic discussion. Great moderating. More!
Before the internet, we generally lived and talked with people similar to ourselves. The internet exposed us to a wide range of opinions, many of which were opposed to our own. Many people found this unsettling and felt an urge to push back and defend their own opinions. At the same time, we connected to other people who agreed with us and demonized the other side. This creates an endless downward spiral of demonizing the other side while reinforcing our desire to defend our own ideas. Anonymity makes the process even worse. We don't have to deal with people online as real humans living in the same community as ourselves. I don't see how this process ends short of a major disaster that will snap people back to reality somehow.
Actually, speaking as someone online since the mid-90s, anonymity made it better. Because here's what happened. Someone would say a shitty thing anonymously, and then about five years would go by and they'd realize they were wrong, and they could simply pick a different screenname and come back from the mistake because no one knew who the fuck they were anyway. Plus, even if you didn't say anything wrong but other people hated what you said, they couldn't ruin your whole life for saying it. I miss those days and devoutly wish we could have them back. You know who said anonymity makes things worse? Zuckerdork. He's got a vested interest in people believing him. He's full of it.
An outstanding conversation. Thank you
Incredibly impressed with MPR given the outstanding podcast series and now this.
34:40. The siloing started at least a decade before the internet became ubiquitous.
This is good; but given the magnitude of silencing of women, I want that to be part of the conversation, and for women's voices to be highlighted.
So glad we're having these rational discussions now. Thank you for sharing this. I only wish we could show our common humanity by highlighting others who have had related experiences but who might share a different general ideology. Also back in 2016 Jordan Peterson had a similar moment in time pushing back on the mob mentality of some LGBTQ activists /students at the University of Toronto.
This felt like a bunch of physicists excitedly talking about the most basic goo goo ga ga apple falls down concepts as if it were groundbreaking.
Wow.
Just like therapy!
Nice
Is this available off of TH-cam in podcast form? Thanks!
I’m listening to it again! Such a wonderful insight. Thank you
After watching Contra Points and then coming here, I agree that Nagalie made a more compelling argument. Even though I was glad megan left the church, she still is fundamentally a republican
Very thoughtful discussion
Thank you
What if we do have actual enemies, though? What's the difference between a legitimate enemy and an illegitimate enemy? Perhaps a legitimate enemy is one who genuinely wishes you harm and is capable of inflicting that harm.
Real enemies do exist, and maybe that makes it even more important that we distinguish between those who are legitimate enemies and those who are not.
I remember a teacher from long ago who said pre-internet that “just because words are in type doesn’t give them authority.” Fast forward to today: Not everything that’s typed into a social media realm is deserving of truths or authority.
I recently saw a nice visual metaphor for online stuff. Imagine being in a physical crowd of people. A topic of discussion shows up on a reader board. You can go up and hand write your reply on a chalkboard. Now, social media like the “typing” of old, is also often just a glorified chalkboard and it’s scrawled out reactions are not all the authority they are built up to be. 49:34
I do love this discussion. Breath of fresh air!
Very insightful and important discussion. It does feel like we're on the precipice of a pivotal moment in time - do we continue down this path of division under the guise of "inclusivity" or do we de-escalate and bring back freedom of speech and discourse? Luke's point about how there is mounting pressure for people to tow the line rather than have discussions that lead to common ground or better understanding of issues is something we can clearly see happening. Also, Tim's point about how arguments are being framed as "dangerous" or as "violence" to completely dismiss reasonable questions and ideas is something I feel very strongly about. I agree with JK Rowling that being a woman is a material reality that makes women particularly vulnerable to male violence. Males commit over 90-95% of sexual offenses and over 80-85% of violent crime. It's absurd to me that these facts are being framed as hate speech or as dangerous rhetoric. How can we ensure if society is moving in the right direction if we cannot even openly debate and discuss how people are being affected by certain policies and ideologies? We must protect and honor freedom of speech.
It just sounds like everyone in agreement with each other. Challenging you to have more real debate, contrasting viewpoints, and giving voice to more sophisticated trans spokespeople to defend themselves. You’re giving one side so much more air and time and it reinforces their viewpoints instead of “good faith conversions” or constructive conversation…
I love the Both/And solution to tribalism: go up to the level of common humanity, and down to the level of universal uniqueness.
Save this one for later.
These types of conversations remind me of why we learnt about fascism and totalitarianism. It wasn't to say, look Nazis are bad. That was obvious. It was to show that human beings fell victim to this and they were subject to fear and propaganda and inaction and illogical actions against their own interests. It was to say, this could happen to you. I studied the History of crime and I see a similar problem with our treatment of convicted criminals. In the past the message was that they took some wrong turns and ended up in a terrible place, nowadays we tell the narrative that they are a monster and always were a monster. It's partly why people don't care about female prisoners and the likelihood of them coming to harm.
We are currently living again in an era of "no debate" on certain topics, changing and eliminating meanings of words and concepts and banning and burning of books. It sounds more like medieval Europe mixed with 20th century totalitarianism than progress. These types of conversations give me a bit more faith that this won't turn into more violence as people are wound up based on false fears that "genocide" is happening and the incredibly toxic idea that you're either with us or against us. We need more courage like this to speak out with humility.
Re: 53:02 - “just the act of having the conversation is transgressive” - I would accept a moratorium on certain conversations and topics if there was a condition on which the moratorium would end. “This is too dangerous to talk about now” could apply to a lot of things. I wouldn’t accept that it’s too dangerous to talk about ever for under any circumstances.
TY FP.
The best way to prevent people from being scapegoated for crimes they have actually committed is to have a formal criminal justice system which includes prisons & police. What people who want to abolish police & prisons don't understand is that without police & prisons ALL we have is scapegoating, which is far more brutal and dangerous.
Great video good job defending freedom
Wouldn’t it have been more in the spirit of what Megan is attempting to achieve to invite at least one discussant who disagrees with the others and who might have argued, for instance, that certain extents of collective moral outrage or emotional outbursts are indeed sometimes justified, or at least understandable, when basic demands for respect are turned into a matter of intellectual exercise? I am not saying that I fundamentally disagree with what is being said, but I also fear that this kind of unchallenged group complaint only serves to preserve just another bubble, in this case a centrist one.
the Bret Weinstein episode at Evergreen was the first serious situation that reached my attention.
"...you end up with these huge gaps in the marketplace of ideas. one gap is a ton of people not saying what they're really thinking. another gap is a ton of people saying what they're not really thinking." word, homey.
This conversation gives me courage. Thanks.
44:15 TH-cam's own comment prioritization comes to mind regarding this. If you keep making comments that challenge the narrative of the comment section you're in, you accumulate dislikes that you can't see but that will push your comment down the page. Those dislikes will also count towards a global like-dislike score that will push down every future comment in future videos. The result is that, even in this comparatively sensible social media forum, if you want to be heard you have to parrot what you think the audience wants to hear.
Loving the discussion. Congrats.
✔️
The JK Rowling podcast is absolutely necessary and very well done ✅ kudos to all involved 😊
Nicholas made small bits of this productive. The video doesn't match the thumbnail title.
This needs more love. Hopefully many have heard the podcast.
It’s called a mob
The challenge is to develop societal antibodies without developing societal autoimmune disorder.
I live listening to smart people who’ve thought about a subject deeply. I’ll just add, women don’t have penises.
What has happened to common decency and not shouting and intimidating people so childish like they are toddlers having a tantrum.
The elephant in the room in all those discussions about (pathological) social dynamics, as I perceive it, is that such instincts and behaviours are the defining characteristic of a certain group of individuals known to science - the group called "neurotypical". This gregarious loss of individuation is indeed THE hallmark of "normies", it's what sets apart the "neurodivergent" group regardless of its level of "adequacy" in other aspects of their life.
There's an implicit value judgement in classifying a kind of behaviour as "normal" - and at least in this case, the value judgement sits squarely on its head. The statistical "normal" doesn't overlap with an ethical "normal", no "ought" is coming out of this embarrassing "is".
It's actually unfair and offensive to declare that we all share such vile instincts, that we're all hiding such shadows deep inside. No, we don't. There's plenty of us who by nature are radically "diverse" in this regard. And then, there are plenty of us who are cultured to inhibit such instincts even if, or when they rear their ugly head. We're not all "integrating our shadow", whatever that might be. We're not all the same basic, gregarious, cowardly peasants in fancy clothes.
I face three months in jail for putting up a sign on my property "Transing kids is abuse and homophobia" after my neighbors displayed a flag facing me that said "Trans rights are human rights." I've already been convicted and fined $200. I'm appealing so I again face jail.
I understand why someone who is against trans rights would view those statements are equally neutral, but morally I don't think a statement that a group deserves Rights should be treated the same as saying they don't.
As for your rebuttal to the idea 'trans rights are human rights', there is ample evidence for why your claims are untrue. Firstly, allowing children to socially transition should not be controversial, nor is it abuse. Multiple independent studies have shown that trans people first come to be aware of or question their gender identity in childhood, and that for most people this does not change. This shows gender identity develops during childhood, so children should be allowed agency over their gender presentation. Additionally, forcing children who want to transition to be Cis is associated with reduced welfare, psychological distress and increased rates of suicide. Stigmatising Transgender people and suppressing Trans youth is what's abusive, not supporting.
As for the homophobia claim, a large amount of Trans people (comparative to Cis people) are LGB, or know LGB people so implying Trans people are homophobic makes no sense. Transphobia and homophobia are based on the idea that someone is performing their assigned gender wrong, which is both why the homophobia myth is so common, and why Trans and Cis LGBT people are allied.
Best,
@@MadameCorgi No one is "trans." There's no such thing as "trans people" or "trans kids." Thus nothing you say makes a bit of sense.
No one is missing any rights. It's not a human right for a man to use a women's locker room, or to be housed in a prison cell with a woman.
No one has a "gender identity." This is all made up, quasi-religious nonsense. It's a cult, and a terroristic one at that.
I'm surprised nobody referenced Haidt et al's work as they've done the research to explain how we got here -- the coddling of kids and the 3 big untruths that led the onslaught of unwisdom on university campuses beginning around 2015. Sadly it turns out it's just one generation afflicted with a pathology and not any kind of social justice movement.
Speaking of witch hunting... Please please please do a piece on/with Stefan Molyneux! He was severely and unfairly attacked by the mob and his reputation destroyed. He's made it abundantly clear what would be required for his return to Twitter, and the world needs more voices like his.
Stefan advocated the idea that there was a white genocide, just like the current trans ideologues
😂
He's a noted anti-semite and racist far right hate monger. That's a little different i think.
The administrators don’t get swept up or scared when the mob forms. They stand by silently because they are true-believers in the cause of bringing about revolutionary change, and the mob is exactly what they’ve been working to bring about for their entire careers.
Free Julian Assange.
Julian Assange needs to stop hosting stolen documents and raping women in their sleep, then.
I wish people would stop confounding age appropriate curation of books in school libraries with book burning.
These folks should listen to Dennis Prager, who speaks on these issues every day.
Your blind if u think this is a soft cudgel
I clicked on this just to tell you nobody cares about this
Well, then Nobody can speak for himself. Bye-bye now.
Sounds like someone believes something despite all the evidence to the contrary. Might be worth listening to more diverse voices including those you assume you automatically disagree with.