I'm glad you made another 2 handed rogue video showing off a full strength build. That's the one I've always used and love having full heavy armor and going ranger instead of bard for the pet!
Ah, the rare 2h rogue. It's a very interesting take - it makes me think if they actually wanted to make it a thing in the next game maybe they can have rogues use a special 2h elven sword that's only for rogues, since they're all mostly curved and would fit with the aesthetic - kinda like a katana or sabre. And it would have a vastly faster moveset compared to a warrior's 2h weapon
I've made an alternative build for the cunning two handed rogue. I invested in just enough strength to equip the steel butterfly sword (from the feast day pranks. Give this to sten the first time you enter camp from lothering and it will be steel.) Butterfly sword +harvest festival ring+song of courage +rally from companion champion = all the attack your cunning rogue will ever need.
Nice Video. I go with 2H Cunning & Song of Courage. Leliana with Scattershot & Captivating Song. Alister with Paralyze Rune Weapon Morrigan with Paralyze. When Leliana has Ranger's Bear as a Tank, I'll try to change Alister to 2w CunningMax Zevran . It's a lot of fun to beat stunned enemies. Thank you.
There is also a steel hammer with +2 damage property and 22 STR req. I prefer it to chasing flatblade with a cunning dumpster rogue till the late midgame, it busts armor better, but becomes obsolete when you reach very high cunning
So many great builds that came out of this channel. I am particuarly fond of The Master Archer and The Elementalist, those two builds got me experimenting with other builds for my companions. Still looking forward to trying out the Golden Knight, the Vampiric Necromancer(s) and The Guardian Angel. Current build progress: Master Archer is finished Origins and DA2 completely (even taking down The Harvester on Nightmare, DA2 was a bit of a slog since enemies are so tanky), and has cleared out most of the Hinterlands in Inquisition (using the Sniper pre-Skyhold build). Elementalist is demolishing his way through Origins. But a 2handed rogue looks remarkably fun, dealing 500+ damage a "backstab" as the cunning version. This is why Origins is my favourite of the Dragon Age games, the level of control the game gives you to make YOUR character is unlike anything in the other 2 games. Reminds me of when I made a 700+ hp tank who facetanked The Harvester on Nightmare with me letting the AI control him which led to my very first Nightmare Harvester kill, after I respecced the rogue into an archer. Keep up the great work I salute you. o7
After some try i think best stats for cun rogue is Str : 22 Dex: 23 (For Lethality) Cun: All Remaining With the items below your strength will be 38 to use 3 socket 7Tier 2 handed Weapon: Key to City +2 Harvest Festival Ring +2 Pearl of the Anointed +1 Andruil's Blessing +2 Helm of Honnleath +2 Shadow of the Empire +2 The Reaper's Cudgel +4 Earthheart's Portable Bulwark +1 22 Base Str + 16 from these items you will have 38 Str for tier 7 Two Handed Weapons (Starfang (GreatSword) , Dragonbone Cleaver, Chasind Great Maul , Nug Crusher, Butterfly Sword etc.) 38 str also means Tier 6 Heavy Armor like (Warden Commander Armor , Blood Dragon Plate etc..) I am using this build now its single target damage is insane but ofcourse against groups, with its area effecting skills even a two handed warrior is better. (Not mentioning Blood mage or Elementalist Mages) (I also use animation cancelling glitch Just 1 Point to Stealth after each strike 1 press stealth it fails to stealth but it cancels animation as you know.. ) Dont forget to subtract 4 points from strength and dex (Without Fade Bonuses Base Str : 18 Dex :19 max) Thanks for the awesome idea of using two handed weapons with cun max rogue.
Honestly cunning works better is most cases since it gives AP ontop of damage with lethality. The added mental resistance is nice since rogue should already have some physical resistance with dex and increases the DC for your rogue talents like dirty fighting. Strength helps with equipping items but you can get away with attribute bonus stacking for the most part. The biggest bonus for strength is just massive +10 strength from the Legionnaire scout specialization.
You can invest some points into strength to get the nug crusher, it requires 32 strength, so you can invest 24 and get other 8 (or more) with equipment. Little lose in cunning (~11) will be compensated by better damage and runes. No?
No. The dragonbone Nug Crusher(best tier) gives 14 damage, for a pretty hefty amount of cunning loss(you need 38 str). The Chasind Flatblade gives 12.10 for ZERO cunning loss. That is only 2.90 additional damage from the Nug Crusher(at it's best tier by the way - the red steel version which has the 32 str requirement only has 12.60 which is only 0.50 damage increase). Even if you would have the best version with 14 dmg for only 32 str instead of 38, you would still lose more damage bonus from Tainted Blade and Exploit Weakness from the lack of cunning. The only good thing would be the runes. The red steel version of the Nug Crusher allows you to have 2 runes, the dragonbone version lets you have 3. In my opinion, it's just not worth it. :)
I am loving this channel. It's so cool seeing someone else do the same weird builds I did back in the day lol. You gotta really know the ins and outs of Origins to test stuff like this, and when it works it's cathartic. Curious, were you a Diablo 2 player? I think my D2 knowledge is what led to my experimentation in DAO. The sheer amount of unique and viable builds in D2 was unreal. DAO scratches that same itch, albeit a little more restricted.
Yup, huge Diablo 1 and 2 fan here(D1 was actually one of the first games I have played on the pc). I have builds for D2 SP on my channel too. I stopped making D2 build because I don't think anyone plays vanilla D2 single player(the hardest way to play it - and the most creative) now that the Resurrected is out, which initially made me very interested but ultimately I barely played it. The whole Ladder rune words in SP thing, is not really something I'm fond of. Not much thinking is involved in it anymore sadly, just farm, get the good runes, build the dope rune word and melt everything. In SP with no Grief, Forti, Faith, Infi, Insight etc. things are much more interesting. Lots of thinking, lots of sacrifice. I love it! People forget how hard D2 Hell is when they look around and see the ladder rune words wrecking everything. So yup, I get a lot of inspiration from D2 when I build my DA builds. For example I have a Ranger build for both D2 and DAO. I also wanted to make a maul-wielding Werebear build because I made one for DAO, but I never found the stupid Cranium Basher...
i would say there is probably room for some middle ground here on both sides, with the strenght investing just enough cunning to get full rogue stuff, and cunning enough strength to get a good armor set and more importantly, a stronger weapon than chasind flatblade.
I tried it and nope, I don't recommend it. Unless of course you just want to look better. But in terms of effectiveness the middle ground is a massive downgrade. For you to use the Chasind Great Maul(best weapon in the game) you need to invest way too many points into STR. Same goes for any Silverite or Dragonbone tier weapons. This results in a huge damage loss, because your damage primarily comes from Cunning(only your base damage matters). So nope, the additional dmg you get from a better weapon(2 from the Chasid Great Maul and 6 from Starfang) does not have a chance against the massive dmg boost that you get from 15+ additional Cunning. Especially since Cunning not only increases your damage, but your critical damage as well with your sustainable skills. There is literally no reason to invest more points into Cunning when it comes to the STR build. Just the passives. No equipment or talent requires Cunning(other than Stealth which is totally optional). :)
You wasn't joking in our last exchange! God job :)! It was a treat to watch. I really like how DAO accomodates different theory crafters. I'm not into late game min-maxing and wasn't aware how high some number can go. Out of curiosity what did inspire you to try such unorthodox combination? I had the idea of wanting to utilize Assasin bleed out (thus needed to max single hit damage) and thus I got the idea of "Bard Knight". Also by any chance do you know if Aura of Pain + Lifeward works out how they sound they could? Not dying unless enemy can hit you for 33% max hp + aura damage tick. Also does it keep healing for it duration or is it one time?
Yeah, me too! That is one of the best things about DAO! Honesty, I have not done much testing with the AoP. I always thought it was useless(unless you play Awakening because there you can use it without life loss if you have a Guardian in the team - same with Blood Magic and any other health-draining skills). But with my future Reaver Trilogy Build, I will definitely look into what I can do with it. :)
Do you think going to 24 strength for the Warden Commander armor which gives a bonus to backstab damage is worth it for the cunning rogue? Or perhaps even 34 for the faiths edge axe? Or would either of these choices only be really viable for the strength rogue? Perhaps I'm undervauluing the ~3-4 levels of cunning lost for the warden commander armor, but the faiths edge axe seems interesting, but perhaps unviable. I just thought of these because until today I didn't think that 2H weapons could backstab, so I was confused why a set of massive armor and a battleaxe had backstab bonuses. Secondly, would either of these builds function fine if one of the subclasses were substituted for Ranger? It seems really interesting but I really love Ranger and was curious to try and make it work. Which do you think would work better if I wanted to substitute assassin (cunning) or duelist (strength) for Ranger? Thanks for the content, effort, creativity and advice!
For the Cunning Rogue, 24 strength is easily achievable with equipment stacking for a human noble(and any dwarf), no investment needed. You start with 11, you get 5 in the fade, 2 from Key to the City, 2 from Andruil's Blessing, 2 from the Harvest Festival Ring, and 2 from Helm of Honnleath. 11 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 24 STR. Once you stacked your STR, equip the armor, then switch the Harvest Ring to the Lifegiver and Andruil Belt to the Maneuvering Belt. Feel free to take off the Helm of Honnleath. Elves start with 10, so you need an additional point into STR to reach 24. Faith's Edge is only good for the Strength Rogue, and only until you can get the Chasind Great Maul. That 10% backstab does not worth that much investment for a cunning rogue. And since the Great Maul has much better damage(and your criticals are based on that) Faith's Edge would have less damage backstab damage. Items with x% critical/backstab damage are available for any class, since they boost both critical and backstab damage. They improve regular crit damage, which can be caused by any class, and backstab dmg, which can only be caused by rogues. So Faith's Edge has that modifier because even a two-handed warrior can benefit from it, since it boosts its critical damage. I would not recommend the Cunning Rogue if you don't go "all in" with it. You would lose a LOT of backstab damage if you don't spec as an Assassin(which would make you wonder if it's even worth it over the Strength Rogue or a regular Double Dagger Rogue). For a Strength Rogue, however, sure, you can go for it and be a Ranger. You lose Mark of Death, but the bonuses in that spec come from Cunning, so you don't lose much since you stack STR. Feast of the Fallen is very useful, but your rogue can live without it, since you don't use that many abilities anyway. So if you want to switch, switch the Assassin to the Ranger for the Strength Rogue.
Interesting! I've often been intrigued by non-standard builds for both DA:O and the ME series and your vids are awesome! What do you think about a Strength-based Rogue like yours here but using a fullsized weapon in the mainhand and a dagger in the offhand? I get that you wouldn't be able to equip much more than Tier 2 or 3 dagger because of the dex requirements, but you might also be gaining a rune slot(s) or two; what do you think the dps would be like? Comparable? (Shame that dual-weapon mastery requires 36 dex or a 2nd fullsize in the mainhand would be nice)
I don’t think it’s a good idea. Or at least not better than either double daggers or double swords. With double daggers you can go for cunning for extreme damage or dex for extreme defense. With double full sized you can go for massive damage with abilities. But what is the benefit for using full sized weapons with a dagger? Nothing. Daggers get half damage from str unlike full sized weapons. So you have weaker damage coming from your off hand for what? The only thing you gain is a bit of speed because daggers are faster than full sized weapons. So I don’t see the point of having a dagger and a full sized weapon on anything else other than an Arcane Warrior. Unless of course that is what suits your specific role play. :)
@@AKisHerceg Good points!!! tyty, in that case then as a strength rogue what would be your thoughts on dropping enough into dex to pick up Dual-weapon mastery and thus being able to use two fullsized weapons? slightly higher defense because of the additional dex, but would it work in your opinion as well on nightmare?
@@numark79 It would work on NM, but it would be less efficient than focusing on backstabs. In my opinion, the full sized weapons were designed for the warrior. This is why double weapon warrior is so destructive. Basically with Deathblow, you can keep activating your devastating abilities all day and keep the mayhem going. A rogue has a hard time with that because rogues don't gain back stamina after a killing blow. Only Assassins gain back stamina, but only after a killing blow resulted from backstabs. So it is much more difficult to sustain a rogue this way than a warrior. And if you want to focus on backstab with two full sized weapon, you can do that. But keep in mind that your speed will be very slow compared to a double dagger rogue. Also your defense will be bad as well, since you will need to boost strength for damage, not dex. So a double full-sized weapon rogue is basically a weaker version of a double weapon warrior. Still, I have built a few(strictly for role-playing) and you can get through NM with it.
@@AKisHerceg Thanks again for the awesome reply! Great stuff all-around and I'm definitely going to be considering a lot in my next playthrough. One more thing; the point I'm feeling from these videos is that no matter the setup (2h or dual wield fullsize or dagger) Rogues can just out-damage warriors by a longshot due to the backstab mechanic? Are 2H STR, fullsize dualwield STR, or double dagger DEX warriors that far behind in your opinion?
@@numark79 In my opinion, double weapon warriors deals the most damage in the game(this is why they removed it from the sequels - they did not want any warrior to out-damage a rogue). The second is the double dagger cunning rogue with poisons. Then you try for the dex rogue, but I think a cunning based archer still deals more damage. The beauty of the dex rogue is its defense. Enemies can't really hit it so it is a safe build, plus it deals pretty good damage.
@AKisHerceg thank you for the response. I am doing the strength build stm using the stealth swing restart. Murdering darkspawn as never been so satisfying. Went ranger for the fun of it. I feel like Jon snow now with my sword and pet wolf.
There is a dual wield warrior build in this channel. In my opinion they are easy to make and you can make an amazing amount of damage with them, if you have a mage that supports you with the haste skill, use momentum and precise striking, your dual wield warrior will be extremely faster, you can use the skill that makes you strike with 2 weapons at once, although you will not make critical strikes. This build is about going for strenght with 36 dex i believe, you may add a little bit in constitution( i have like 20 but around 37 with certain items) to help you, cunning only requires you to invest one point if you want to go for coercion. The rest will be invested in strenght, will is not so important, i go with the superior heavy dragon scale set, but using evon the great mail and i am a berserker templar, fatigue does not bother me, Is really low. You can get more dps if you are a reaver and berserker but i hate some mages that happen to get in my way and i wanted to use templar skills against them ( just 2 xD) The dual wield warrior Is very fun, i am sure you will enjoy it if you try It out, even on nightmare the build is very strong. But i am also wondering if going for cunning is worth It for the critical strikes, as a warrior, not rogue, i remember some daggers that have high crit chance, so dual wielding those adding precise striking (wich is a warrior skill) may increase critical strike chances by a lot if going for cunning, i will probably need a tank, since i will be very weak because of the lack of good armor.
Warrior mains... Why are we here? Just to suffer? When even our own character weapon is better in the hand of the other classess? WHY?! XD Really good video :D Personal question if you would build a rouge with 50/50 dex/cun what classes would you choose for him in the first game ? and a 50/50 rougue would be better as a dual weapon or archer in your opinion?
@@adrianblania5565 Well, if it's a rogue, then archer. If it's a warrior then the 50/50 dex/str can work well with a standard dual weapon warrior with full sized wagons.
@@StarMarshal True. They are more like ninjas who instead of a ninjato, accidentally picked up an odachi and now they are trying to make the best of it. :)
Out of all the weird builds that I know of that you haven't done a video on, I have mentioned a year or so ago a team I would love to see you expand upon. Quadruple Warrior Archer team! Now, Warrior archer himself is pretty unexciting, but something really beautiful happens when you combine 4 of them together. See, the cool thing about specifically warrior archer (WA for short) is that there is no reason to level any other stats besides dex, as dex improves everything - attack, defense, damage, and it is also the only stat that is required for archery skills. And the most important part that makes the whole team work is defense. Not only is your naturally high from all that dex you are getting, you also have access to defensive fire for whopping +30 to defense (with Master archer), and you can get additional +40 from Champion's Rally. Well, normally, if you activate Rally while being affected by a Rally from another warrior, the one from another warrior gets "disabled". To circumvent that, you just need to activate each of your rally's outside of other rally's radius, and then group back up. Also, do not forget the suppresing fire ability that further reduces enemy attack. Having the defense this high will result in all attacks that aren't auto-hits to miss, always. You will still have some trouble with enemy mages, but that's why your warden has to get Templar as your second specialization and acquire the Holy Smite (Alister should get Holy Smite as well). Long range "Delete this mage" button compliments our long range attacks nicely. Now, you might ask "Why not do this with dagger + shield warrior"? Answer - melee characters have a tendency to separate from each other when they are being kited by enemies, and separting from each other means losing 30 defense from Rallies. Also, you will still struggle to kill mages fast enough if you have to run towards them. Archers don't have to move at all. Also, Scatershot is stupid when you have access to 4 of them in a way in which no sword&board skills are. How do you make 4 Warrior archers? You have to get Alister, Sten and Oghren early enough in terms of your own level so that they wouldn't waste their talent points on their own. Easy enough with Alister and Sten, but pretty tough with Oghren. Essentially, you have to rush straight to Frostback Mountains as soon as you leave Lothering. Then you will have to fight your way in through mercs and Loghains lapdogs at level 7, and get deep enough in the Orzamar chapter to battle through Provings and Jarvia at level 8 (I couldn't crack Jarvia on Nightmare with this build, had to lower the difficulty, as at this low a level you don't have the skill points necessary to spec yourself and Morrigan into a coherent enough team). After that, Oghren is here to become your 4th archer. Now, I am sure that this team straight up doesn't work until all 4 of your archers have the Champion spec, so I just abused the "Lothering free XP" bug to powerlevel to 14. But after that, I kid you not, the only time I ever used a health poultice was during Cauthrien fight, and even then, it was just a single one, and if I nolifed that fight a bit harder, I am sure I could've done just fine without any. Dragons are easy - just kite them while the other boys are attacking. Duels go very well because of very high defense your warden has. Gaxkang was easy because I and Alister resisted most of his spells because we have a spellward each (sold Bodahn the Cudgel the first time I entered the camp), and I also had the templar armor, and his Melee form always missed us. Sadly, you can't run Quadruple Warrior Archer in Awakening, as there are only 2 companion warriors.
Yeah, no doubt this is great when they are sufficiently leveled, but it's a real pain getting to level 14 without the xp glitch. Also, what really annoys me is of course Oghren, as you mentioned this yourself. He is really difficult to get at that low level. For Nightmare, I would be tempted to use Morrigan's Flying Swarm glitch, but even that is only available at level 10. But 4 archer warriors knocking down and stunning enemies constantly sounds pretty fun. Same with four Arrow of Slayings. :)
@@oleggrishechkin5059 True, but it also sucks the fun out of the whole "making bad builds work" situation, which Origins Warrior Archer is, but Awakening Warrior Archer isn't.
Personally, i feel this would come down to party composition. Given that the Cunning rogue is so reliant on backstabs, you'd essentially have to work with two tanks, right? Whereas the Strength Rogue can offtank. Been too long since i last played Origins (comp crashed so i have to unlock everything again), but that's my impression based on what you're saying.
It is certainly ideal for the Cunning Rogue to have a tank. Still, you can actually make it work with another Cunning Rogue since I played the game as a duo with Leliana. Both of you just have to use Stealth a lot, and stun everything you can. :) That is why Golems were a pain... I could not stun them and we were only able to backstab them with Leliana when our paralyze runes proceed. Thankfully because of our speed, they proceed a lot.
@@AKisHerceg Thanks, i had the impression the Cunning rogue was squishier from the video since you have Sten and Alistair with shield builds on both, and then made special mention that the cunning rogue had lower defense stats.
Not harder, but they will not be as effective as you would be. They can only effectively backstab if you have a really good tank drawing aggro constantly, but even then they have problems with proper positioning. Still, I sometimes spec Leliana into a str 2H rogue just for fun. I even give her heavy armor. :)
Yes, kinda. Dagger and shield is not that different from double dagger, because backstabs are based on your main hand weapon. So basically, you have similar damage for backstabs as a double dagger rogue, but you can't use any double dagger skills. For swords, you would get higher crit dmg because of the higher base damage(naturally you do the same as you see here: either go for cunning with Lethality or for Strength). You would backstab slower though, but not as slow as the two-hander. The best sword for that is Maric's Blade obviously, since even if it's the dragonbone tier which has the highest 11.20 damage(almost as high as the Chasind Flatblade), it has no str requirement at all! But the Cailan's Shield does require a ot of str so that is not the best pick for the build. Ultimately they are viable, but the two-hander obviously has more impressive damage. :)
I prefer 1H axes over swords for better stat modifiers. Shield Rogue is both deceptively tankier than double dagger (because most likely you will get Champion shield from Vortag Gavorn in Orzammar (+15 Def total)) but also can develop as Rogue quicker (as you don't have weapon talents to invest, which leaves you with Rogue tree initially and specs later). Add Incense of Awareness (consumable) and Dueling Stance and you have +35 Defence from your character alone. Both high level stealth or play dead can be utilised to drop threat but threat generation will be more difficult. You would need to check if any threat generating items are accessible for Rogues. Thus I would play that character as assasin to pop up, deal with someone to aggro everyone on me, then let the team hop in and tag tanking to whoever else once your health is low to save on needing to actually heal. If bard was picked you could also aoe stun all enemies with Captivating song after they gather around you. Which is something that I rarely use. Given extra tankiness you could rely on AI Mage to cast Heroic Defense before grenading yourself / using trap to deal some aoe damage to clustered enemies. I lately was theory crafting Shield Rogue but as Ranger with Wolf companion, which would make for loss in damage. Generally it should be nice character to pilot as you will dismantle traps and you can act as a tank. Which now makes me want to do some STR/CUN hybrid to get into heaviest armors quicker.
Which race is better for cun based rogue , +1 cun vs +2 con and %10 magic resist so its still dwarf for me. Down side is you cant be queen. But I am thinking Cun Based Dwarf 2 handed Rogue, Leliana same with main , morrigan and Wynne both support mages. 2x attack bonuses from bard auras and crit chances with support of Glyph, paralyze petriffy this party can kick some ass :D But you play with 2 warriors 1 mage 1 rogue which looks safer but i dont know your dps may be equal with my planned party too (Since 3 melee chars vs 2x back stabbing rogues) In short : My question is which is better for constant stuns petrifys etc. (that trigger Coup de Grace) 2x warior 1x rogue 1 x mage or 2x rogue 2x mage ?
When it comes to capitalizing on disabling skills, the best is 1 rogue, 1 warrior and 2 mage in my opinion. Warrior is great at taunting, so enemies will not face the rogue, and the two mage can shower them with paralyze, mass paralysis, petrify, glyph of paralysis or paralysis explosion. They can also double life ward and group heal. Your two melee fighter will not go down. Ever. And no one will even know that your rouge is there.
@@AKisHerceg Thanks alot for answer as well as great videos !!! I guess damage will be still good in that party set up (1x rog 1x war 2x mage) and you can leave others to ai and just focus backstabbing with your rogue. I really liked the idea. I come the idea to play with 2 rogues becouse i always play non rogue main chars so unconcsiously I add leliana to party. But as main cun rogue i dont need anybody for traps and locks D Though i was planing not to use any skill points for deft hands skills becouse high cun will be enough later and leliana comes with skill points in it but on the other hand arranging 2x cun items for 2 rogues would be harder. Also with strength items and extra stats from mage tower i think i can use a higher tier 2 handed weapon (with runeslots). Ahh but I forget one of the reason I plan to go with 2 bards is also double bard auras for extra attack and crit chance. So I can also go with 2x rog 1 war 1 mage too and also use just 1 mage (Wyenne) can be hard but again i can make her arcane warrior and there is great for making one badass arcane warrior/ sprit healer build. Any way i am gonna start with My Rog + Alistar + Sten + Leliana , Later Switch sten or Alistar (or maybe Leliana) with Wyemn.
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Thanks for the video brother. How does one level up this build? im coming back to DAO after years and im very rusty.
Stack either str or cun. When you get to the Mage tower, get the fade essences and add a few points afterwards to the stat that needs more. You only need 23 dex for the cunning rogue to get Lethality so after the tower you can pick it up when you level up next. As for skills, your main objective is getting Coup de Grace and Stealth. After that you can pick them in any order you like. For example you can get the spec abilities first, then the rest of the rogue abilities. :)
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@@AKisHerceg Thank you! What acessories are you using? ( for cunning and strenght variant )
I would not. You can try but you will definitely not see the numbers I was able to achieve. You would have less backtab damage with your cunning rogue and less attack with your strength rogue.
Yes, because the attributes do different things. :) Stacking one makes a certain aspect of that build more powerful. For example the bonus damage from backstabs when it comes to cunning - str does not give any bonus damage to our backstabs based on any talent, so losing some points to str can hurt the focus of the build, because you will deal less backstab damage. 42 str? That is a HUGE investment away from cunning. That is almost 25-30 attribute points that could fuel Exploit Weakness, Song of Courage and Tainted Blade. None of these talents receive any bonus from str, so it's pretty clear that investing in str is not a good idea for a cunning rogue. :)
@@AKisHerceg yeah I just thought maybe like good armor could do compensate. For example 24 strength gets you the Cadash stompers which increase crit chance and armor. So I thought maybe there was like a hear argument for putting more points into stnegth. Or like you don’t hit much with cunning so having extra attack means the crits matter more. But it appears that’s not true. So that’s why I was curious. It makes sense that’s not the case. I am Just surprised min maxing go this degree is an effective way to play the game
@@conradkorbol The Cadash Stompers are a good idea, but you can get them by stacking str from equipment, then switching them back to your regular gear(the gear will not auto-unequip if you don't meet the requirement so you can just leave it on). No investment required(I did not get them because they are ugly as hell lol). The Battledress of the Provocateur also requires 24 str, so I also played with the equipment to reach it. :)
The Harvester is one of the most annoying bosses in the game even if you have a high tier tanking warrior he can still do 200 damage per hit and reminds me of one of those monsters from the Souls games.
True, but the real danger in that fight is the skeleton horde that is summoned by it… All of them are dual weapon wielding monsters capable of hitting up to 330+ crit damage, with non-stop super fast stunning Riposte attacks. So basically you better have a pretty good dodge chance, or you will never leave the forge.
@@AKisHerceg I equipped Cailan's armor set, Vigilance longsword, Landsmeet shield, andruill's blessing, Lifegiver and the key to the city but those skeletons can still destroy me in a matter of seconds especially one in particular that's higher tier than the others he's the that does the most damage even the Topsider's Honor the best sword against the undead spawn does nothing against them 😔
@@moby_justchillout1861 That is why you need to concentrate on the Harvester and just let your dodge do it’s job. :) With Cailan’s boots, the Spellward amulets and the Spirit Warrior’s Beyond the Veil you already have 80%. With the Vigilance sword(pick the option “whatever can help me in defense” when making it) you have 90%. Most hits will totally miss you and you only need to dodge the Harvesters aoe attacks. With the Maneuvering belt you can even have 100% dodge which turns the fight into a joke. :)
@@AKisHerceg have you applied it in your 2 handed builds? If not it could become even more powerful. Also curious how would half cunning and half strength based rogue be like eventually. I am a sucker for decent looking armor and weapons on my characters.
@@marcomongke3116 Yes, I did. In fact, I even used Swift Salve to make me even faster. :) Half Str and half Cun? I tried it, and it works, but you are weaker in terms of priorities when comparing it to the two builds. You have a bit more attack than the Cunning rogue, but you deal less backstab damage(which should be your priority when you raise Cunning). With the Strength rogue, your backstab damage will increase, but your base damage will be decreased which means that you will deal less damage in face to face fights and even with your backstabs, since they are calculated based on your base. Your attack will also decreases, so you will definitely miss a lot when fighting head on. So a 50-50 build will result in a 50-50 effectiveness. But if you are a sucker for a good looking armor(me too btw), then sure, you can invest those points into Strength, just be ready for the negative effects - in my opinion, the build will still work, but it won't be as impressive as a these two. :)
Sword dmg? Strength increases both your two-handed and one handed weapon damage(because they use Strength as damage modifier). Not just swords, but all full-sized weapons in general(as you can see, I use the Chasind Great Maul with the build). Daggers and bows have a 50-50 modifier(50% Dex and 50% Str). So basically, it is a pretty good idea to raise strength if you are wielding full sized weapons as a rogue. :)
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
*Max Strength Rogue* : Where do you go to work out?
*Max Cunning Rogue* : The library.
I'm glad you made another 2 handed rogue video showing off a full strength build. That's the one I've always used and love having full heavy armor and going ranger instead of bard for the pet!
Ah, the rare 2h rogue.
It's a very interesting take - it makes me think if they actually wanted to make it a thing in the next game maybe they can have rogues use a special 2h elven sword that's only for rogues, since they're all mostly curved and would fit with the aesthetic - kinda like a katana or sabre. And it would have a vastly faster moveset compared to a warrior's 2h weapon
In thw second game it's even better cos cunning it's boosting the defenses too, that's why DA2 it's my favorite by far.
I've made an alternative build for the cunning two handed rogue.
I invested in just enough strength to equip the steel butterfly sword (from the feast day pranks. Give this to sten the first time you enter camp from lothering and it will be steel.)
Butterfly sword +harvest festival ring+song of courage +rally from companion champion = all the attack your cunning rogue will ever need.
The beauty of origins, being able to use almost any weapons with any class, little to no other good game allows that ,even more nowadays
Nice Video.
I go with 2H Cunning & Song of Courage.
Leliana with Scattershot & Captivating Song.
Alister with Paralyze Rune Weapon
Morrigan with Paralyze.
When Leliana has Ranger's Bear as a Tank, I'll try to change Alister to 2w CunningMax Zevran .
It's a lot of fun to beat stunned enemies. Thank you.
I love Origins, I love off-meta builds, and I love this channel :)
There is also a steel hammer with +2 damage property and 22 STR req. I prefer it to chasing flatblade with a cunning dumpster rogue till the late midgame, it busts armor better, but becomes obsolete when you reach very high cunning
So many great builds that came out of this channel. I am particuarly fond of The Master Archer and The Elementalist, those two builds got me experimenting with other builds for my companions. Still looking forward to trying out the Golden Knight, the Vampiric Necromancer(s) and The Guardian Angel.
Current build progress: Master Archer is finished Origins and DA2 completely (even taking down The Harvester on Nightmare, DA2 was a bit of a slog since enemies are so tanky), and has cleared out most of the Hinterlands in Inquisition (using the Sniper pre-Skyhold build). Elementalist is demolishing his way through Origins.
But a 2handed rogue looks remarkably fun, dealing 500+ damage a "backstab" as the cunning version.
This is why Origins is my favourite of the Dragon Age games, the level of control the game gives you to make YOUR character is unlike anything in the other 2 games. Reminds me of when I made a 700+ hp tank who facetanked The Harvester on Nightmare with me letting the AI control him which led to my very first Nightmare Harvester kill, after I respecced the rogue into an archer.
Keep up the great work I salute you. o7
Glad you are having fun! :)
After some try i think best stats for cun rogue is Str : 22 Dex: 23 (For Lethality) Cun: All Remaining With the items below your strength will be 38 to use 3 socket 7Tier 2 handed Weapon:
Key to City +2
Harvest Festival Ring +2
Pearl of the Anointed +1
Andruil's Blessing +2
Helm of Honnleath +2
Shadow of the Empire +2
The Reaper's Cudgel +4
Earthheart's Portable Bulwark +1
22 Base Str + 16 from these items you will have 38 Str for tier 7 Two Handed Weapons (Starfang (GreatSword) , Dragonbone Cleaver, Chasind Great Maul , Nug Crusher, Butterfly Sword etc.)
38 str also means Tier 6 Heavy Armor like (Warden Commander Armor , Blood Dragon Plate etc..)
I am using this build now its single target damage is insane but ofcourse against groups, with its area effecting skills even a two handed warrior is better. (Not mentioning Blood mage or Elementalist Mages) (I also use animation cancelling glitch Just 1 Point to Stealth after each strike 1 press stealth it fails to stealth but it cancels animation as you know.. )
Dont forget to subtract 4 points from strength and dex (Without Fade Bonuses Base Str : 18 Dex :19 max)
Thanks for the awesome idea of using two handed weapons with cun max rogue.
Honestly cunning works better is most cases since it gives AP ontop of damage with lethality. The added mental resistance is nice since rogue should already have some physical resistance with dex and increases the DC for your rogue talents like dirty fighting. Strength helps with equipping items but you can get away with attribute bonus stacking for the most part. The biggest bonus for strength is just massive +10 strength from the Legionnaire scout specialization.
You can invest some points into strength to get the nug crusher, it requires 32 strength, so you can invest 24 and get other 8 (or more) with equipment. Little lose in cunning (~11) will be compensated by better damage and runes. No?
No.
The dragonbone Nug Crusher(best tier) gives 14 damage, for a pretty hefty amount of cunning loss(you need 38 str). The Chasind Flatblade gives 12.10 for ZERO cunning loss. That is only 2.90 additional damage from the Nug Crusher(at it's best tier by the way - the red steel version which has the 32 str requirement only has 12.60 which is only 0.50 damage increase).
Even if you would have the best version with 14 dmg for only 32 str instead of 38, you would still lose more damage bonus from Tainted Blade and Exploit Weakness from the lack of cunning.
The only good thing would be the runes. The red steel version of the Nug Crusher allows you to have 2 runes, the dragonbone version lets you have 3.
In my opinion, it's just not worth it. :)
I can't believe this works.
Warrior... It's over
I am loving this channel. It's so cool seeing someone else do the same weird builds I did back in the day lol. You gotta really know the ins and outs of Origins to test stuff like this, and when it works it's cathartic.
Curious, were you a Diablo 2 player? I think my D2 knowledge is what led to my experimentation in DAO. The sheer amount of unique and viable builds in D2 was unreal. DAO scratches that same itch, albeit a little more restricted.
Yup, huge Diablo 1 and 2 fan here(D1 was actually one of the first games I have played on the pc). I have builds for D2 SP on my channel too. I stopped making D2 build because I don't think anyone plays vanilla D2 single player(the hardest way to play it - and the most creative) now that the Resurrected is out, which initially made me very interested but ultimately I barely played it. The whole Ladder rune words in SP thing, is not really something I'm fond of. Not much thinking is involved in it anymore sadly, just farm, get the good runes, build the dope rune word and melt everything. In SP with no Grief, Forti, Faith, Infi, Insight etc. things are much more interesting. Lots of thinking, lots of sacrifice. I love it! People forget how hard D2 Hell is when they look around and see the ladder rune words wrecking everything.
So yup, I get a lot of inspiration from D2 when I build my DA builds. For example I have a Ranger build for both D2 and DAO. I also wanted to make a maul-wielding Werebear build because I made one for DAO, but I never found the stupid Cranium Basher...
tbh i always though rogues should stick to Cunning for 2 reasons:
1) Less stat poin wasting
2) Lethality (passive talent)
That certainly work, if you only plan to backstab(as you see it in the video). :)
@@AKisHerceg yeah i always played backstabber though... archer wasnt my thing too
when i did this on my own i went with strength
i would say there is probably room for some middle ground here on both sides, with the strenght investing just enough cunning to get full rogue stuff, and cunning enough strength to get a good armor set and more importantly, a stronger weapon than chasind flatblade.
I tried it and nope, I don't recommend it. Unless of course you just want to look better. But in terms of effectiveness the middle ground is a massive downgrade.
For you to use the Chasind Great Maul(best weapon in the game) you need to invest way too many points into STR. Same goes for any Silverite or Dragonbone tier weapons. This results in a huge damage loss, because your damage primarily comes from Cunning(only your base damage matters). So nope, the additional dmg you get from a better weapon(2 from the Chasid Great Maul and 6 from Starfang) does not have a chance against the massive dmg boost that you get from 15+ additional Cunning. Especially since Cunning not only increases your damage, but your critical damage as well with your sustainable skills.
There is literally no reason to invest more points into Cunning when it comes to the STR build. Just the passives. No equipment or talent requires Cunning(other than Stealth which is totally optional). :)
2 handed rogue?!? Gamers have gone too far
Found it!
Technically the best damager in the game is stinging swarm, with hexes dropping nature resistance along with spellpower stacking.
You wasn't joking in our last exchange! God job :)! It was a treat to watch.
I really like how DAO accomodates different theory crafters. I'm not into late game min-maxing and wasn't aware how high some number can go. Out of curiosity what did inspire you to try such unorthodox combination? I had the idea of wanting to utilize Assasin bleed out (thus needed to max single hit damage) and thus I got the idea of "Bard Knight".
Also by any chance do you know if Aura of Pain + Lifeward works out how they sound they could? Not dying unless enemy can hit you for 33% max hp + aura damage tick. Also does it keep healing for it duration or is it one time?
Yeah, me too! That is one of the best things about DAO!
Honesty, I have not done much testing with the AoP. I always thought it was useless(unless you play Awakening because there you can use it without life loss if you have a Guardian in the team - same with Blood Magic and any other health-draining skills). But with my future Reaver Trilogy Build, I will definitely look into what I can do with it. :)
Do you think going to 24 strength for the Warden Commander armor which gives a bonus to backstab damage is worth it for the cunning rogue? Or perhaps even 34 for the faiths edge axe? Or would either of these choices only be really viable for the strength rogue? Perhaps I'm undervauluing the ~3-4 levels of cunning lost for the warden commander armor, but the faiths edge axe seems interesting, but perhaps unviable. I just thought of these because until today I didn't think that 2H weapons could backstab, so I was confused why a set of massive armor and a battleaxe had backstab bonuses.
Secondly, would either of these builds function fine if one of the subclasses were substituted for Ranger? It seems really interesting but I really love Ranger and was curious to try and make it work. Which do you think would work better if I wanted to substitute assassin (cunning) or duelist (strength) for Ranger?
Thanks for the content, effort, creativity and advice!
For the Cunning Rogue, 24 strength is easily achievable with equipment stacking for a human noble(and any dwarf), no investment needed. You start with 11, you get 5 in the fade, 2 from Key to the City, 2 from Andruil's Blessing, 2 from the Harvest Festival Ring, and 2 from Helm of Honnleath. 11 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 24 STR. Once you stacked your STR, equip the armor, then switch the Harvest Ring to the Lifegiver and Andruil Belt to the Maneuvering Belt. Feel free to take off the Helm of Honnleath.
Elves start with 10, so you need an additional point into STR to reach 24.
Faith's Edge is only good for the Strength Rogue, and only until you can get the Chasind Great Maul. That 10% backstab does not worth that much investment for a cunning rogue. And since the Great Maul has much better damage(and your criticals are based on that) Faith's Edge would have less damage backstab damage.
Items with x% critical/backstab damage are available for any class, since they boost both critical and backstab damage. They improve regular crit damage, which can be caused by any class, and backstab dmg, which can only be caused by rogues. So Faith's Edge has that modifier because even a two-handed warrior can benefit from it, since it boosts its critical damage.
I would not recommend the Cunning Rogue if you don't go "all in" with it. You would lose a LOT of backstab damage if you don't spec as an Assassin(which would make you wonder if it's even worth it over the Strength Rogue or a regular Double Dagger Rogue). For a Strength Rogue, however, sure, you can go for it and be a Ranger. You lose Mark of Death, but the bonuses in that spec come from Cunning, so you don't lose much since you stack STR. Feast of the Fallen is very useful, but your rogue can live without it, since you don't use that many abilities anyway. So if you want to switch, switch the Assassin to the Ranger for the Strength Rogue.
Interesting! I've often been intrigued by non-standard builds for both DA:O and the ME series and your vids are awesome! What do you think about a Strength-based Rogue like yours here but using a fullsized weapon in the mainhand and a dagger in the offhand? I get that you wouldn't be able to equip much more than Tier 2 or 3 dagger because of the dex requirements, but you might also be gaining a rune slot(s) or two; what do you think the dps would be like? Comparable? (Shame that dual-weapon mastery requires 36 dex or a 2nd fullsize in the mainhand would be nice)
I don’t think it’s a good idea. Or at least not better than either double daggers or double swords. With double daggers you can go for cunning for extreme damage or dex for extreme defense. With double full sized you can go for massive damage with abilities. But what is the benefit for using full sized weapons with a dagger? Nothing. Daggers get half damage from str unlike full sized weapons. So you have weaker damage coming from your off hand for what? The only thing you gain is a bit of speed because daggers are faster than full sized weapons. So I don’t see the point of having a dagger and a full sized weapon on anything else other than an Arcane Warrior. Unless of course that is what suits your specific role play. :)
@@AKisHerceg Good points!!! tyty, in that case then as a strength rogue what would be your thoughts on dropping enough into dex to pick up Dual-weapon mastery and thus being able to use two fullsized weapons? slightly higher defense because of the additional dex, but would it work in your opinion as well on nightmare?
@@numark79 It would work on NM, but it would be less efficient than focusing on backstabs.
In my opinion, the full sized weapons were designed for the warrior. This is why double weapon warrior is so destructive. Basically with Deathblow, you can keep activating your devastating abilities all day and keep the mayhem going.
A rogue has a hard time with that because rogues don't gain back stamina after a killing blow. Only Assassins gain back stamina, but only after a killing blow resulted from backstabs. So it is much more difficult to sustain a rogue this way than a warrior.
And if you want to focus on backstab with two full sized weapon, you can do that. But keep in mind that your speed will be very slow compared to a double dagger rogue. Also your defense will be bad as well, since you will need to boost strength for damage, not dex.
So a double full-sized weapon rogue is basically a weaker version of a double weapon warrior. Still, I have built a few(strictly for role-playing) and you can get through NM with it.
@@AKisHerceg Thanks again for the awesome reply! Great stuff all-around and I'm definitely going to be considering a lot in my next playthrough.
One more thing; the point I'm feeling from these videos is that no matter the setup (2h or dual wield fullsize or dagger) Rogues can just out-damage warriors by a longshot due to the backstab mechanic? Are 2H STR, fullsize dualwield STR, or double dagger DEX warriors that far behind in your opinion?
@@numark79 In my opinion, double weapon warriors deals the most damage in the game(this is why they removed it from the sequels - they did not want any warrior to out-damage a rogue). The second is the double dagger cunning rogue with poisons. Then you try for the dex rogue, but I think a cunning based archer still deals more damage. The beauty of the dex rogue is its defense. Enemies can't really hit it so it is a safe build, plus it deals pretty good damage.
I know this is an older video but what armor would you suggest for the strength version of the build?
Evon the Great mail with Wade’s set. Pretty much the best option, hence I also used that.
@AKisHerceg thank you for the response. I am doing the strength build stm using the stealth swing restart. Murdering darkspawn as never been so satisfying. Went ranger for the fun of it. I feel like Jon snow now with my sword and pet wolf.
i'm very curious to see a dual wield warrior or even a 2h warrior which i know are basic as hell but i never figured out how to build em
There is a dual wield warrior build in this channel.
In my opinion they are easy to make and you can make an amazing amount of damage with them, if you have a mage that supports you with the haste skill, use momentum and precise striking, your dual wield warrior will be extremely faster, you can use the skill that makes you strike with 2 weapons at once, although you will not make critical strikes.
This build is about going for strenght with 36 dex i believe, you may add a little bit in constitution( i have like 20 but around 37 with certain items) to help you, cunning only requires you to invest one point if you want to go for coercion.
The rest will be invested in strenght, will is not so important, i go with the superior heavy dragon scale set, but using evon the great mail and i am a berserker templar, fatigue does not bother me, Is really low.
You can get more dps if you are a reaver and berserker but i hate some mages that happen to get in my way and i wanted to use templar skills against them ( just 2 xD)
The dual wield warrior Is very fun, i am sure you will enjoy it if you try It out, even on nightmare the build is very strong.
But i am also wondering if going for cunning is worth It for the critical strikes, as a warrior, not rogue, i remember some daggers that have high crit chance, so dual wielding those adding precise striking (wich is a warrior skill) may increase critical strike chances by a lot if going for cunning, i will probably need a tank, since i will be very weak because of the lack of good armor.
Warrior mains... Why are we here? Just to suffer? When even our own character weapon is better in the hand of the other classess?
WHY?! XD
Really good video :D
Personal question if you would build a rouge with 50/50 dex/cun what classes would you choose for him in the first game ? and a 50/50 rougue would be better as a dual weapon or archer in your opinion?
If I would have to build a 50/50 rogue, I would go with an archer. :)
They might take our weapons, but they will never have the swagger of a noble knight.
@@AKisHerceg and classess?
@@adrianblania5565 Well, if it's a rogue, then archer. If it's a warrior then the 50/50 dex/str can work well with a standard dual weapon warrior with full sized wagons.
@@StarMarshal True. They are more like ninjas who instead of a ninjato, accidentally picked up an odachi and now they are trying to make the best of it. :)
For the cunning rogue what equipment weapon & armor should I look for to equip since most high tier stuff will be unavailable?
I have a video about it on my channel. "Beware of the Two-Handed Assassin!". You can find all the info there. :)
Out of all the weird builds that I know of that you haven't done a video on, I have mentioned a year or so ago a team I would love to see you expand upon.
Quadruple Warrior Archer team!
Now, Warrior archer himself is pretty unexciting, but something really beautiful happens when you combine 4 of them together. See, the cool thing about specifically warrior archer (WA for short) is that there is no reason to level any other stats besides dex, as dex improves everything - attack, defense, damage, and it is also the only stat that is required for archery skills. And the most important part that makes the whole team work is defense.
Not only is your naturally high from all that dex you are getting, you also have access to defensive fire for whopping +30 to defense (with Master archer), and you can get additional +40 from Champion's Rally. Well, normally, if you activate Rally while being affected by a Rally from another warrior, the one from another warrior gets "disabled". To circumvent that, you just need to activate each of your rally's outside of other rally's radius, and then group back up. Also, do not forget the suppresing fire ability that further reduces enemy attack.
Having the defense this high will result in all attacks that aren't auto-hits to miss, always. You will still have some trouble with enemy mages, but that's why your warden has to get Templar as your second specialization and acquire the Holy Smite (Alister should get Holy Smite as well). Long range "Delete this mage" button compliments our long range attacks nicely.
Now, you might ask "Why not do this with dagger + shield warrior"? Answer - melee characters have a tendency to separate from each other when they are being kited by enemies, and separting from each other means losing 30 defense from Rallies. Also, you will still struggle to kill mages fast enough if you have to run towards them. Archers don't have to move at all. Also, Scatershot is stupid when you have access to 4 of them in a way in which no sword&board skills are.
How do you make 4 Warrior archers? You have to get Alister, Sten and Oghren early enough in terms of your own level so that they wouldn't waste their talent points on their own. Easy enough with Alister and Sten, but pretty tough with Oghren. Essentially, you have to rush straight to Frostback Mountains as soon as you leave Lothering. Then you will have to fight your way in through mercs and Loghains lapdogs at level 7, and get deep enough in the Orzamar chapter to battle through Provings and Jarvia at level 8 (I couldn't crack Jarvia on Nightmare with this build, had to lower the difficulty, as at this low a level you don't have the skill points necessary to spec yourself and Morrigan into a coherent enough team). After that, Oghren is here to become your 4th archer.
Now, I am sure that this team straight up doesn't work until all 4 of your archers have the Champion spec, so I just abused the "Lothering free XP" bug to powerlevel to 14.
But after that, I kid you not, the only time I ever used a health poultice was during Cauthrien fight, and even then, it was just a single one, and if I nolifed that fight a bit harder, I am sure I could've done just fine without any. Dragons are easy - just kite them while the other boys are attacking. Duels go very well because of very high defense your warden has. Gaxkang was easy because I and Alister resisted most of his spells because we have a spellward each (sold Bodahn the Cudgel the first time I entered the camp), and I also had the templar armor, and his Melee form always missed us.
Sadly, you can't run Quadruple Warrior Archer in Awakening, as there are only 2 companion warriors.
Yeah, no doubt this is great when they are sufficiently leveled, but it's a real pain getting to level 14 without the xp glitch. Also, what really annoys me is of course Oghren, as you mentioned this yourself. He is really difficult to get at that low level. For Nightmare, I would be tempted to use Morrigan's Flying Swarm glitch, but even that is only available at level 10. But 4 archer warriors knocking down and stunning enemies constantly sounds pretty fun. Same with four Arrow of Slayings. :)
Nice, but in Awakening dex archer is OP (thanks to new archer ability), so you can easily beat everything solo.
@@oleggrishechkin5059 True, but it also sucks the fun out of the whole "making bad builds work" situation, which Origins Warrior Archer is, but Awakening Warrior Archer isn't.
Personally, i feel this would come down to party composition. Given that the Cunning rogue is so reliant on backstabs, you'd essentially have to work with two tanks, right? Whereas the Strength Rogue can offtank.
Been too long since i last played Origins (comp crashed so i have to unlock everything again), but that's my impression based on what you're saying.
It is certainly ideal for the Cunning Rogue to have a tank. Still, you can actually make it work with another Cunning Rogue since I played the game as a duo with Leliana. Both of you just have to use Stealth a lot, and stun everything you can. :)
That is why Golems were a pain... I could not stun them and we were only able to backstab them with Leliana when our paralyze runes proceed. Thankfully because of our speed, they proceed a lot.
@@AKisHerceg Thanks, i had the impression the Cunning rogue was squishier from the video since you have Sten and Alistair with shield builds on both, and then made special mention that the cunning rogue had lower defense stats.
@@Amyante Your impression is correct. It is indeed squishier then the dex. The dex can actually solo the entire game relatively easily.
How much harder is it to build one of your companions into a Two Handed cunning rogue?
Not harder, but they will not be as effective as you would be. They can only effectively backstab if you have a really good tank drawing aggro constantly, but even then they have problems with proper positioning.
Still, I sometimes spec Leliana into a str 2H rogue just for fun. I even give her heavy armor. :)
What about a sword and shield rogue?
Or dagger and shield rogue?
Would it be simmilar to this?
Yes, kinda.
Dagger and shield is not that different from double dagger, because backstabs are based on your main hand weapon. So basically, you have similar damage for backstabs as a double dagger rogue, but you can't use any double dagger skills.
For swords, you would get higher crit dmg because of the higher base damage(naturally you do the same as you see here: either go for cunning with Lethality or for Strength). You would backstab slower though, but not as slow as the two-hander. The best sword for that is Maric's Blade obviously, since even if it's the dragonbone tier which has the highest 11.20 damage(almost as high as the Chasind Flatblade), it has no str requirement at all! But the Cailan's Shield does require a ot of str so that is not the best pick for the build.
Ultimately they are viable, but the two-hander obviously has more impressive damage. :)
I prefer 1H axes over swords for better stat modifiers. Shield Rogue is both deceptively tankier than double dagger (because most likely you will get Champion shield from Vortag Gavorn in Orzammar (+15 Def total)) but also can develop as Rogue quicker (as you don't have weapon talents to invest, which leaves you with Rogue tree initially and specs later). Add Incense of Awareness (consumable) and Dueling Stance and you have +35 Defence from your character alone. Both high level stealth or play dead can be utilised to drop threat but threat generation will be more difficult. You would need to check if any threat generating items are accessible for Rogues. Thus I would play that character as assasin to pop up, deal with someone to aggro everyone on me, then let the team hop in and tag tanking to whoever else once your health is low to save on needing to actually heal.
If bard was picked you could also aoe stun all enemies with Captivating song after they gather around you. Which is something that I rarely use.
Given extra tankiness you could rely on AI Mage to cast Heroic Defense before grenading yourself / using trap to deal some aoe damage to clustered enemies.
I lately was theory crafting Shield Rogue but as Ranger with Wolf companion, which would make for loss in damage. Generally it should be nice character to pilot as you will dismantle traps and you can act as a tank. Which now makes me want to do some STR/CUN hybrid to get into heaviest armors quicker.
Which race is better for cun based rogue , +1 cun vs +2 con and %10 magic resist so its still dwarf for me. Down side is you cant be queen. But I am thinking Cun Based Dwarf 2 handed Rogue, Leliana same with main , morrigan and Wynne both support mages.
2x attack bonuses from bard auras and crit chances with support of Glyph, paralyze petriffy this party can kick some ass :D
But you play with 2 warriors 1 mage 1 rogue which looks safer but i dont know your dps may be equal with my planned party too (Since 3 melee chars vs 2x back stabbing rogues)
In short : My question is which is better for constant stuns petrifys etc. (that trigger Coup de Grace) 2x warior 1x rogue 1 x mage or 2x rogue 2x mage ?
When it comes to capitalizing on disabling skills, the best is 1 rogue, 1 warrior and 2 mage in my opinion.
Warrior is great at taunting, so enemies will not face the rogue, and the two mage can shower them with paralyze, mass paralysis, petrify, glyph of paralysis or paralysis explosion. They can also double life ward and group heal. Your two melee fighter will not go down. Ever. And no one will even know that your rouge is there.
@@AKisHerceg Thanks alot for answer as well as great videos !!!
I guess damage will be still good in that party set up (1x rog 1x war 2x mage) and you can leave others to ai and just focus backstabbing with your rogue. I really liked the idea.
I come the idea to play with 2 rogues becouse i always play non rogue main chars so unconcsiously I add leliana to party. But as main cun rogue i dont need anybody for traps and locks D
Though i was planing not to use any skill points for deft hands skills becouse high cun will be enough later and leliana comes with skill points in it but on the other hand arranging 2x cun items for 2 rogues would be harder.
Also with strength items and extra stats from mage tower i think i can use a higher tier 2 handed weapon (with runeslots).
Ahh but I forget one of the reason I plan to go with 2 bards is also double bard auras for extra attack and crit chance.
So I can also go with 2x rog 1 war 1 mage too and also use just 1 mage (Wyenne) can be hard but again i can make her arcane warrior and there is great for making one badass arcane warrior/ sprit healer build.
Any way i am gonna start with My Rog + Alistar + Sten + Leliana , Later Switch sten or Alistar (or maybe Leliana) with Wyemn.
Thanks for the video brother. How does one level up this build? im coming back to DAO after years and im very rusty.
Stack either str or cun. When you get to the Mage tower, get the fade essences and add a few points afterwards to the stat that needs more. You only need 23 dex for the cunning rogue to get Lethality so after the tower you can pick it up when you level up next.
As for skills, your main objective is getting Coup de Grace and Stealth. After that you can pick them in any order you like. For example you can get the spec abilities first, then the rest of the rogue abilities. :)
@@AKisHerceg Thank you! What acessories are you using? ( for cunning and strenght variant )
Would this work in DA2
Nope.
Do you recommend doing the either or approach? Is it suboptimal to do say 42 strength and the rest cunning?
I would not. You can try but you will definitely not see the numbers I was able to achieve. You would have less backtab damage with your cunning rogue and less attack with your strength rogue.
@@AKisHerceg so the numbers don’t even put? Interesting and that’s so strange to me
Yes, because the attributes do different things. :)
Stacking one makes a certain aspect of that build more powerful.
For example the bonus damage from backstabs when it comes to cunning - str does not give any bonus damage to our backstabs based on any talent, so losing some points to str can hurt the focus of the build, because you will deal less backstab damage.
42 str? That is a HUGE investment away from cunning. That is almost 25-30 attribute points that could fuel Exploit Weakness, Song of Courage and Tainted Blade. None of these talents receive any bonus from str, so it's pretty clear that investing in str is not a good idea for a cunning rogue. :)
@@AKisHerceg yeah I just thought maybe like good armor could do compensate. For example 24 strength gets you the Cadash stompers which increase crit chance and armor.
So I thought maybe there was like a hear argument for putting more points into stnegth. Or like you don’t hit much with cunning so having extra attack means the crits matter more.
But it appears that’s not true. So that’s why I was curious.
It makes sense that’s not the case. I am
Just surprised min maxing go this degree is an effective way to play the game
@@conradkorbol The Cadash Stompers are a good idea, but you can get them by stacking str from equipment, then switching them back to your regular gear(the gear will not auto-unequip if you don't meet the requirement so you can just leave it on). No investment required(I did not get them because they are ugly as hell lol). The Battledress of the Provocateur also requires 24 str, so I also played with the equipment to reach it. :)
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The Harvester is one of the most annoying bosses in the game even if you have a high tier tanking warrior he can still do 200 damage per hit and reminds me of one of those monsters from the Souls games.
True, but the real danger in that fight is the skeleton horde that is summoned by it… All of them are dual weapon wielding monsters capable of hitting up to 330+ crit damage, with non-stop super fast stunning Riposte attacks. So basically you better have a pretty good dodge chance, or you will never leave the forge.
@@AKisHerceg I equipped Cailan's armor set, Vigilance longsword, Landsmeet shield, andruill's blessing, Lifegiver and the key to the city but those skeletons can still destroy me in a matter of seconds especially one in particular that's higher tier than the others he's the that does the most damage even the Topsider's Honor the best sword against the undead spawn does nothing against them 😔
@@moby_justchillout1861 That is why you need to concentrate on the Harvester and just let your dodge do it’s job. :) With Cailan’s boots, the Spellward amulets and the Spirit Warrior’s Beyond the Veil you already have 80%. With the Vigilance sword(pick the option “whatever can help me in defense” when making it) you have 90%. Most hits will totally miss you and you only need to dodge the Harvesters aoe attacks. With the Maneuvering belt you can even have 100% dodge which turns the fight into a joke. :)
Does Haste help two handed attack speed?
Definitely! :)
@@AKisHerceg have you applied it in your 2 handed builds? If not it could become even more powerful. Also curious how would half cunning and half strength based rogue be like eventually. I am a sucker for decent looking armor and weapons on my characters.
@@marcomongke3116 Yes, I did. In fact, I even used Swift Salve to make me even faster. :)
Half Str and half Cun?
I tried it, and it works, but you are weaker in terms of priorities when comparing it to the two builds.
You have a bit more attack than the Cunning rogue, but you deal less backstab damage(which should be your priority when you raise Cunning).
With the Strength rogue, your backstab damage will increase, but your base damage will be decreased which means that you will deal less damage in face to face fights and even with your backstabs, since they are calculated based on your base. Your attack will also decreases, so you will definitely miss a lot when fighting head on.
So a 50-50 build will result in a 50-50 effectiveness.
But if you are a sucker for a good looking armor(me too btw), then sure, you can invest those points into Strength, just be ready for the negative effects - in my opinion, the build will still work, but it won't be as impressive as a these two. :)
@@AKisHerceg thanks for the detailed answer. Your vids made me excited about playing rogues again. Keep up the great content!
Now now . What next......?
A neat trick that will make these builds 10 times more powerful. :)
@@AKisHerceg just watchin your vids interesting stuff hook on a build maybe ....you doing DA so long not get bored?
@@abraduks11 I don't think I can ever really get bored of it to be honest... :)
@@AKisHerceg so much hate cautrien
Strengtht rogue? Dies rogue sinerguze with str at all besides sword dmg?
Sword dmg? Strength increases both your two-handed and one handed weapon damage(because they use Strength as damage modifier). Not just swords, but all full-sized weapons in general(as you can see, I use the Chasind Great Maul with the build). Daggers and bows have a 50-50 modifier(50% Dex and 50% Str).
So basically, it is a pretty good idea to raise strength if you are wielding full sized weapons as a rogue. :)
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