I am loving totally the KLH M5's you suggested and purchased because of our recommendation. I am getting my SimAudio Moon CD-1 that has a Burr Brown. I am trying to strategize how to push my system to be the best it can and thinking about what DACS will add value. One person suggested a Border Patrol DAC, which is a very NOS based. Would love to get an update when you have a chance. Love you guys!!!
@@clarice1001nights Firstly, congrats those are excellent speakers. Secondly I heard really good things about the border patrol and may review them in the future.
It's a strange feeling - everything that you called disadvantages, I consider advantages 😉 No muddy marketing - only objective measurements and function descriptions. They all sound equally good, just choose the inputs/outputs and functions that you need.
Today all the measurements are great, measurements mean nothing to me. Some implementations can't be measured. I want listening review and comparison of differences.
@@PaulClay46masonWVthose are literally the least reliable source of information possible lol. I swear the only reason this crap flies in the audiophile world is that people can't gauge the quality of a sound system while listening from another one through the internet, cuz if we could probably blind test this stuff remotely the prices thing would change fast, very fast.
I believe Gisheli labs J2 used an older chip and upgraded/improved in other ways. I wonder if people skipped it because it didn’t have the latest chip. I think it sounds great for the money.
The J2 is an absolute jewel. It pairs really well with class d (crown xls especially) and has better Soundstage than my much more expensive Dacs... J2 with USB is the best bang for the buck I've tried (over a dozen pop dacs)
Agreed j2 is fantastic, best dac I have ever owned. It uses ES9026 PRO which is one that almost no one ever used. They did a fantastic job implementing it.
IMO your logic is broken. The fact they are mostly similar does not mean they should not exist. It creates competition which lowers the price for people getting into the hobby. Also the filters will be called the same because its describing the function of the filter. What do you want them to call them? Fruit names instead of slow, fast or sharp, soft..etc? Silly.
I came into the comments to say something similar (and did), but allow me to add to yours -- so that other people reading yours will see it -- that a lot of supposedly brand-differentiated consumer durables out there are actually made at the same factory. Every single microwave on the planet comes from the same factory. Most smart phones. A great many kitchen appliances. Etc, etc, etc, etc.
I think he means that they all have the same function, not that they are called the same thing. Nomatter where you go an apple will still be an apple but these are all the same type of apples. Its like they are all red delicious apples. Nothing wrong with a red delicious apple. Good price and tasty but have you ever had a Fuji apple? Thats on a different league.
Been saying it for a long time... DACs are getting very tapped out and the performance is very close sonically speaking. I review insane DACs and even at these prices, there are many similarities.
Not all Chinese DACs sound the same. I’ve tried Topping, SMSL, and Loxjie. I finally settled on the Loxjie D50 with AKM 4499 chip. The Loxjie D50 Sounded the best to me compared to most ESS 9038 Pro chip equipped DACs, which seemed to be all clones made in 2021. Yes, It was a bad year for all DAC manufacturers when having to promptly change their DAC’s heart, the chip, after AKM fire. Chinese DACs allowed many budget minded audiophiles the opportunity to experience great sound without having to spend a ton of money. Yes money may not be an issue for some, but for the majority of music enthusiast I feel Chinese DACs was one of the best things that could’ve happened for the hi-fi community.
the gustard x26 pro is the only to do it right with those ESS chips, but even then it still is not a long term daily driver for me. As for the other dacs with ESS chips...pure trash.
@@bobmenke3211 the test method was done listening to several different genres of music. I used symphony orchestra, female vocals, rock, and pop. Female vocals were most pleasing using the Loxjie D50. Rock and Pop music had good rhythm with good sub-bass. Well recorded symphony orchestra music and chamber music from 2L Audiophile Reference Music really showed how good the AKM4499 chip really is. The AKM “Velvet Sound” is a great description and not an exaggeration. Soundstage and imaging are really good. Center imaging is dead center. Noise-floor is nonexistent. The best sound quality seems to be with USB using ROON on dedicated Windows 10 HTPC. Every ESS based clone DAC I tried all fell short of musicality, soundstage, and imaging. These DACs included Loxjie D30, Topping DX7, SMSL M200 with AKM-4497. The SMSL M200 came in close second place but lacked overall refinement.
Yeah but the Japanese did this in audio on the 80s but they were better at it both in sound production and quality control. Chinese chips have a reputation for a reason
Isn’t the whole point of a dac, to make sure that the source signal is converted as transparently as possible? Unless you want it to colour the source.
Just don't confuse "transparency" with SINAD, I see that happens a lot in these discussions. Poor SINAD can hurt transparency, but after a certain threshold (probably 90dB), higher does not indicate more audible transparency. Just wanted to throw that out there for any newcomers looking at DACs
No, that’s not true. I’ve been modding CD players and DACs for 30 years. The greatest difference begins at the source (server or CD transport) and interface (USB, I2S, SPDIF). The analogue stage and DAC chip are secondary. Chips can make a significant difference, more so than you think, but still less than analogue output stage.
I've found the Topping D90se (In DAC mode) as extra Clean , Clear & Crisp... Which makes it System Dependent. But when well matched its exceptional. Keeping it for sure
I hear what you're saying about all of these being very similar. They really can be. With regard to the filters, I could definitely be wrong, but I believe that those are baked into the DAC chip by the manufacturer. So, depending on if it's a Sabre, Cirrus Logic, Asahi Kasei etc, you're just switching through filters that are on the chip. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know soon enough. I also completely agree, they chase specs because people buy of the specs instead of what something actually sounds like. If it sounds amazing who cares about the specs? Also, what a great time to be an audiophile. It's amazing how good this stuff sounds for the money these days.
i came here to say pretty much this. I tihnk it is more about these various companies using same/similar AKM chips (for ex) and hence using the terminology associated with the spec of that chip. I just saw the descriptions for an AKM DAC and it has these exact same terms for tuning (?) and how each would sound (?) Anyway, yeah. diffierent companies slightly different implementation using chips from same company. maybe signature sound difference between the 2 implementations (?)
Don’t forget that many people read measurements instead of listening to music. Some of them keep the unit turned off: after all it’s the same: the numbers are enough to judge. So it happens that many of them make rankings of dacs they have never owned, tested, or even seen. All based on some we guy’s measurements. And they will tell you how your dac sounds. Isn’t it funny?
@@DaveJ6515 How many of those who bought expensive DACs actually blind tested them tho? Cuz until they do measurements are a better way to judge a product than relying on heavily biased listening
@@babagandu it’s not junk . Chinese Dacs are very good and useful products . It’s not the main component or weakest component in an audio chain. It does it’s job exceptionally well. If your setup sounds like shit , just because you’re using a low budget Chinese DAC , there’s something else going on .
The filters are the same because they are industry standards in audio. They go for measurements because the better the measurements the better the sound. Quantifiable data means observable results. We should be thanking chinese brands because they raised the bar on cheaper audio. Things that used to cost thousands of dollars are now sub below a thousand bucks generally.
See Golden Sound's videos about how meaningless or manipulated these tests can be. He has an audio analyzer and actually explains how the tests are ran. A well measuring amp can sound worse because it has a compromise in the design that was made to look good in tests.
You think you know what you are talking about, but you don't. I mean that literally, not because you have a different opinion on the matter. "They go for measurements because the better the measurements the better the sound." The fact that we can't measure everything we hear makes that statement false, but we'll ignore that for now. What also makes your statement false is you can't treat objective variables the same as subjective variables. Better measurements is a little vague, and really could mean everything. Some measurements aren't audible, and some are. Either way, a measurement is objective. Better sound is subjective. It can't be linked to any kind of objective factor, because its not. For example, is red a different color than blue? Yes it is, and we can back it up with some measurements. Is red a better color than blue? That's what you're doing. Better sound is subjective. There's no wrong answer, and there's no linking it to an objective variable. "Quantifiable data means observable results. We should be thanking chinese brands because they raised the bar on cheaper audio. Things that used to cost thousands of dollars are now sub below a thousand bucks generally." That's an emotional statement based on personal opinion. Price is not an objective variable. Its completely irrelevant from a scientific point of view. Without some context, there's no way to tell what it is you're talking about. Before you try and argue with me over facts (there's no arguing facts, that's why they're facts), but you'll try anyway. I'm the guy that called out Amir and embarrassed him. I made the claim everything he did was junk science, and there was not a shred of real science being done. You could see that he thought it was funny and didn't think much of me or my claim. But then I proved it. He got mad, pulled the posts to avoid further embarrassment and ignored me from that point forward. You sound like one of his dedicated followers and probably saw the posts I'm referring to. And if you saw the posts you know you're on the loosing end of the argument. But if you insist, I can do it again.
@@AT-wl9yqyou can't tell if red is better than blue, but the point of an amp is to reconstruct sinusoids as faithfully as possible to the source, and that's measurable.
It is really strange that dac companies haven't looked at what has been happening within the guitar digital modelling amplifier market.... As many guitar amps are programmable to offer a whole range of different famous tube and non tube guitar amps samples ....which are now getting surprisingly close to the real thing . ...Now just image a programmable dac with say 10 preset amp sound ranging from full tube sounds Macintosh, quad , decware etc, etc and then some Class A/B. sounds like. First watt, passlabs Audio research and krell etc and then maybe some hybrids and Class D....all in one DAC / preamp. Now that would truly be something amazing ....for all those unable to afford the real deal would be happy with having something say 85% - 90% similar in sound signature. Equally ....if digital recordings are often specially adjusted, remastered and compressed for vinyl then why can't this also be added and included into a dac as a presents ....labelled - vinyl master or something?! I'm sure it may happen one day but it would revolutionise what is currently a very expensive hobby.
Then you are back to a processed sound that is always there. As long as you can turn it off and not hear a processed sound would be fine for most of the purists.
I've had similar frustrations lately. I understand that having different options at different pricepoints is good, but when there are so many of what is essentially the same product just under different names, it gets pointless. I've turned down a fair few review units lately cause I honestly just do not want to review what is basically the same product 5 times. This sometimes even happens in the SAME company, look at the SMSL SU-8S and the SMSL DO200, they are literally identical other than the knob location
Would you ever consider reviewing the Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200m? I've scoured the internet and there are basically no available measurements. A review from you, especially with your comprehensive review style, would be quite interesting (not to mention - for lack of a better word "trailblazing").
I can see this being an issue if you are buying and listening to dozens of audio products but not for the listener that just wants to buy one DAC and move on. I see this as a general issue with youtube reviewers who seem to normalize the insane and unsustainable practice of constant consumerism. Don't look to manufacturers to fill life's void, just have fun!
Truth is most of us ....will only buy a few dacs...starting with a good budget unit, then upgrade a top chip dac or budget R2R ...and finally maybe get one more expensive R2R if funds allow.
Some audiophiles (not necessarily you) are 'married' to their gear. I like to think that, yes I love my gear, but . . . it's the music, and how real it sounds in my room, that marries me.
Chinese DACs are great but as you rightly point out their preamp sections are far from perfect. R2R DACs are fantastic as long as you do not try to connect your TV to them: according to John Darko there are lip sync issues. My imaginary ideal home office setup consists of a pair of Dynaudio LYD5, a silent PC running Audirvana and an excellent sub 800 USD DAC/preamp, linked to a TV. Any suggestions?
This IS crazy. I saw your video while I was scouring TH-cam just now thinking how come there are so many new Chinese Dacs with names that are 24 characters long that do the same thing? And then I looked at Schiit and Denifriips, read all the reviews and said man I need to listen to those dacs before I spend 2000 bucks for a discrete DAC. Screw this, I'll just wait another season and see if I find something to replace my old dac.
These DAC's all implement the features built into the same handful of AKM and ESS DAC chips without adding anything extra. When it comes to DAC features and performance they're all sufficiently far beyond the point diminishing returns that there is little if any discernable difference between them. But the headline had me hoping for a deal on the Holo Audio May....
my took was the rme adi-2 fs , cause the eq and other setup possibilities and the build quality. it’s a kind of professional construction and build up quality
I hear you, and I appreciate the point you're making. But maybe it's time for us to use the DACs we've got, stop buying shit for the sake of it, and focus on things that have a bigger impact on our enjoyment of the music. Like, investigating more artists, looking into room treatment, equipment setup, isolation (from vibration), etc.
Indeed, preamps section kinda suck on these DACs, that's why I've been messing around on dedicated preamps from different designs. Preamp is equally important just like DAC and even amplifier.
I don't disagree, but you're still using the preamp section of a DAC no matter what -- it's the "A" in DAC. That's what really differentiates most DACs, and what you're paying for in the high-end
Great video. I'd love to see the DAC manufacturers incorporate an eARC connection. Bluesound is in part killing it because they offer the simple functionality.
This is the feature that is the most important to me. The optical audio from my Samsung 8K tv that did cost the equivalent to 6000$ (USD) brand new sounds terrible compared to bluetooth and earc audio. So I think most of the cheaper tv's will not sound better and most will sound worse. It is time to move on to earc which will enable more practical features and increase the sound quality a lot.
As a Chinese, I was surprised by knowing those are Chinese brands, but not surprised by your opinion. At least we know it's not that hard to build a pretty good DAC. And these products may make HiFi more popular.
I am not sure what he means by preamp section? Maybe a reference to the output stage after the dac chip. While I have not listened to the new crop of Chinese dacs, I have liked some of the early ones like Matrix and really enjoyed that one. After decades of dacs, I have settled for now on a British model from Prism Sound the Lyra. I do also use a Chinese made ifi for my desktop setup.
Most Chinese DAC manufacturers do not make their own screens or remotes. They are from other OEM manufacturers. As for Denafrips, they omitted the screen. Hence, it is seen as different. However, that doesn't take away the fact that Chinese DACs like SMSL, and Toppings are great value for money and they do the job they are supposed to do.
2:32 Yes, they have something common in their DACs. This is DAC microchip that provides those filters in 'hardware'? So the filters get same names as specified in some datasheet of the DAC microchip.
I agree with most of what you said. The display and remote is the human machine interface that allows us to control our experience. I don't care so much about the shape and color of the box/enclosure.
@@Jayiyagi how well its built...good measurements... have you ever done a blind abx test with those dac's? that would be real information. I watch your videos and subscribe and i thumbs up the ones I like. My patience with nothing but subjective opinion reviews is wearing a bit. I've been studying this for almost a year. Last year I bought a new audio system...A McIntosh MA5300 integrated with DA-2 dac module and a pair of Martin Logans Electromotion ESL's with a Thorens turntable to boot. I am not a cheapster, I just wish the reviews I've seen were more balanced with objective data. BTW, I got new speaker cables to go with my new system and they are from GearIt and cost 20 bucks a pair.
Thank you Jay, that's what I was trying to express in my comment, maybe I used too many words but I feel too many people have this idea that only specs matter and only the best specs create the best gear. I think that is not correct and correct me if I'm wrong but I think you were making at least a similar point along the way.
It sounds like double standards. Western DACs have no UI only with buttons or labyrinth-like UIs defined as classic or personality. Chinese DACs offer the similar UIs based on low price defined as boring. If you are chasing for Quality of DAC UIs, you can choose same top brands from China, eg. Auralic, Matrix, Lumin...
The products that are increasingly emerging from manufacturers of Chinese origin have reached a superb level! Period! We pay a fair value for these products! The important thing is the final sound! And not the origin of the manufacturer! Those who make reviews are very afraid to claim that a product from a Chinese manufacturer that costs 500 US dollars (for example) is better than one coming from another country that costs 5,000...Unfortunately any human being can consider himself an audio critic overnight. And I don't say this as direct criticism, understand that! I respect the work that a TH-camr has to make himself heard! But not running away from the topic of conversation... Blessed are Chinese companies and their gifted professionals who offer us so much for so little making quality audio accessible to those with little money!
Yes the sound is the most important and that is why it is also important that Jay point out that most of them sound the same. And yes the origin of the manufacturer is not important so why glorify the chinese companies when some reviewer on TH-cam gave valid critics about their product sounding the same?
@@kato2395 they all sound the same.. good. You're not supposed to be collecting amps or dacs for different sound signatures, you do that with EQ or different headphones. These things are as clean as can be and you won't need more than a single unit. Therefore it's irrelevant for you as a customer if they all sound the same, actually, it's better for you as a customer.
I had a Matrix Mini I Pro 3 which is very functional since it has Airplay2 etc but I recently upgraded to a Denafrips Pontus 2 which is clearly a big step up. Musicality, timing , tonality , dark background , analogue sound etc. Suits my system very well. I’m sure the Holo May or Terminator 2 is even better. Unless they come up with much better chips ( which will happen in the future ) , it’s not for me atm.
Just as I am entertaining the idea of a new DAC this video comes out. JAY, I just pieced together a system based on your suggestion (Lore Ref - SoundArtist Integrated and BlueSound Node. Do you think this setup would benefit from a DAC instead of using the internal in the Node and if so what might be a good fit in this system?
All these Chinese brands being very similar is normal. They all pull from the same parts bins.... also allows them to keep prices down. They don't all sound the same but many are very similar. I had several and all the ones ASR has tested the pre-amps are fine... your mad. When it comes to SINAD its not everything BUT it is important and there's research to back that up. If you want to achieve 16 or 24 but audio SINAD will have to be considered. But clearly that much dynamic range or freq range isn't necessary because people like vinyl (about 10bit/32khz). I'm not the type to pay extra for botique gear so I don't see a problem with what Chi-Fi is doing other than its become boaring and predictable but its giving the comman man great performance for less and taking money away from the fake pretentious a-holes selling snake oil.
It would be great if my dac had a sub-out or two. My amp while nice is basically has a Vinyl input for mm, two RCA inputs and a pre out. I can get by but a dedicated sub out could be variable say 45 to 120 Hz or so cutoff.
Just came across your VERY cogent and accurate comments. After many years of feeling the very same thing, after many decades of owning and collecting mostly 2-channel gear, from hand-wiring tube equipment myself, through to class T and D, I felt what you so nicely put into words, so thanks. And I never, ever wanna sell anything, either! Always hoping for breakout innovation by manufacturers. I’ve always hated clones. I happen to be dying for shit to create a 50 white clase, integrated, aimed, primarily at Muirfield motors.
I have been looking for a new pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp to drive them. I wound up with an SMSL and Schiit amps on my desktop and was trying to decide if the Schiit was worth paying the extra money. After watching your video... I'm keeping the Schiit. Thanks!
I totally agree with your points Jay,However sometimes it’s a budget issue and you try to find the best unit in your price range unfortunately.I am saving for a used Gustard as being retired you buy what you can afford.In a perfect world I would purchase an RME or Lake People DAC
I have an X16 alongside a topping pre90. Sound is phenomenal with my power which is an eval-1 with the input buffer bypassed. I try to spend as little as possible without compromising the sound so if you're on budget I'd say this is the way to go
I see people online agonizing about which whatever they should choose, when really everything out there is pretty good. In the bunches of dacs I’ve had I cannot say that I could tell any major difference between any of the filter settings. Decide by what features the unit has and what pleases your eye, not picking between the one that has .00001,distortion as opposed to.00004 - you’re not going to hear the difference.
The vmv d2 i have comes to mind. Not only is it an exceptional dac, but the output is as good as the topping pre90. Now paired this with a topping pa5 and i'm blown away how good everything is sounding. Go big or go home
I'm still using my headphone jack from my laptop. Everything sounds wonderful. Am I missing something? My speakers are placed well away from from room boundaries. They are stand mounted Micca RB-42s. By the way... Nice review.
Hello good man. I want to ask you. I'm in a dilemma right now. I have the following equipment. Yamaha MG10XU Mixer, 2 HS8 Monitors + HS8S Subwoofer, MSI-Vector Laptop with 13gen Intel core i9 13980hx, +Thunderboot 4 output, I think the graphics card doesn't matter as well as the SSD, the chipset itself. I am considering the purchase of a DAC and settled on the RME ADI-2 Pro FS. I'm hesitating about what interface to get to improve the sound. I mainly use my studio for guitar recordings and listening to quality music. What would you advise me about DAC and is it worth investing in? Or just get a good audio interface. P.S. Thank you very much!
great review.. which dac would you choose the merason dac 1 or denafrips venus 2 to pair with rogue cornus tube amp and maggie lrs +, dmpa6 streamer( im currently using the dac inside the a6)i want a bery musical , analog , organic dac with soul.. easy to listen abd draws you into the music?
Your comment about the sound profiles on the VMV D1se got me thinking: The cheaper SMSL DACs also have this feature--did changing the sound profiles on these cheaper SMSLs also had a significant effect on the sound?
Hey Jay, just a subscriber from Australia, luv your content, I am upgrading my system and some of your product reviews has been important in my purchase decisions to date, Thankyou for the honesty and the quality video's.
Personally, I think the big problem with most of the dacs mentioned in this video (with perhaps the exception of the VMV) is that they don't pay enough attention to the ANALOG output stage. These companies don't focus enough on the analog section to make their products sound interesting or different from each other. It's really in the analog section of their designs where they could really improve. I'm sure that a separate section/dedicated box with an upgraded power supply; like higher quality caps, resistors and transformer, etc...would give a more special sound to some of these Chinese dacs. It's almost like they focused solely on the DIGITAL aspects of their dacs by using the chips to achieve low noise numbers; while totally ignoring the ANALOG aspects in their products. That's why Burson is very good, and a step up, Imho...because they pay more attention to the analog output stage. Seems like too many of these Chinese companies have forgotten the "A" in DAC. That's why they all seem to have that same sterile sound signature. Imho, I think that the best and easiest way to upgrade the sound of a component, is to add a better analog output supply. Companies other than Chinese (like Linn, Naim, Musical Fidelity, Macintosh, etc) have been doing this for years.
how do you know they are ignoring the analog section though? what sort of technical knowledge you possess to make a stance like that? do you have any suggestions of where to look to say that they're skimming on the analog output stage? not to dismiss your point but you if you make such a statement you need to at least bring up some examples. besides I've had a few burson dac/amps and they're nice imo but nothing exceptional to the already available china-made counterparts.
@@charlesgrubbs2101 Many people believe well designed dacs do sound the same. Features and build quality are the real difference. The Topping D90se is what I would buy if I needed an external dac. It measured awesome at Audiosciencereview.
as someone who is from Asia and is exposed to a wide range of these products north of us, what you said about redundancy and no innovation on them is 110% true. Whatever people say about this is not true yadah yadah, do open up your eyes. I feel these manufacturers are just waiting for the next innovation from overseas like vultures waiting to pounce on the next opportunity to mass produce it in cheaper boxes 🙄
I feel that both of you, you are not completely wrong in your criticism for the to many almost identical products, BUT I didn't see anywhere a very important (my opinion ! ) number and that is IMD (inter modulation distortion). The lower number "gets it all". Would you like to investigate in your presentations this "number" ? What a DAC can achieve when are mixed a tone at (let say) 180Hz with another one at 3.2 ~3.6KHz ? Even better what a digital amplifier can achieve with a 3.14KHz tone mixer with (let say) 14.7KHz ? Are the mixing "products" let say -85dB or less ?
Very much enjoy your videos. I currently use a Node (N130) via USB to Ares II DAC, do you feel adding an Iris inline would further improve the sound quality?
Out of my Dozen Dacs my Burson Composer is by farrrr my Favorite from the down under 'bringing the Thunder' 🇦🇹 Str8 dac No headphone amp included I love that ! Espically the 4x double descrete Op-amps are interchangable and Sparkos SS3602 brought out some serious detail refinement but $90 bucks each ! Thanks Jay
@@clivesutcliffe487 Mine was built in Australia , But personally i have nothing against buying China Fi some of the best audio gear by pricepoint is made in China . I will put my (Chinese) Doge 10 integrated amp with Kt120 power tubes/Brimar Pre-tubes up against any amp in its pricepoint ! Amp sold under the Lua bran for $6400 U.S. but the Doge took it a step furher by adding all Clarity caps as notch filters and the rest of the caps are Nichicon and Mains/output transformer are Z10 core steel not many tube amps are this powerful in terms of Density/fullness/attack/dynamics I paid 2k U.S. and I have had the Doge for over a year with no problems Doge under sold the amp and I have over 14 solid state amps nothing comes close in performace to the Chinese Doge its a GIANT KILLER @2k and only 59 pounds 😆
This is interesting. Here in Australia, there is a used denafrips for sales every week or two. But none for months for those identical sounding mid range topping smsl DACs.
I’m about to settle with the cayin n8ii, it is sick how complicated it gets just to hear music, I still need the image 5 speakers though when I buy that ocean view apartment
Sounds like they sound audibly transparent. This is good. I look forward to the day when most everything is audibly transparent and people can focus on features and UI.
You can somewhat do this today I think. It's just that people are fighting their own perceptions of "audibly transparent" or what sounds like "real music" to them. Speakers and room are still the biggest differences though
In all honesty, I had a hard time hearing any difference between my $1700 Denafrips Pontus 2 and $700 Topping D90 (4499). Maybe my hearing isn't as sharp as others. I've also owned dacs from Gustard, Schiit and SMSL. The only one I truly disliked was my Schiit Gungnir Multibit. It sounded muffled and dull to me. Good thing about these dacs is they have solid resale value. After seeing Zeos' review of the FiiO K9 Pro ESS, I bought it and plan on sticking with it for a while.
If you agree, consider giving us a like on the video to spread the word !
Gustard A18: apos.audio/products/gustard-a18-dac?_pos=13&_sid=5e3df7e26&_ss=r&sca_ref=459032.WbootYrpIv
SMSL DP5: apos.audio/products/smsl-dp5-high-fi-network-enabled-dac-amp?_pos=1&_sid=d686f446d&_ss=r&sca_ref=459032.WbootYrpIv
SMSL M400: apos.audio/products/smsl-m400-mqa-dac?_pos=1&_sid=c9ee702ab&_ss=r&sca_ref=459032.WbootYrpIv
Loxjie D50: www.loxjie-audio.com/productshow.asp?id=158
Topping X Shenzhen EX5: shenzhenaudio.com/products/topping-ex5-mqa-support-dual-es9038q2m-dac-bluetooth-5-0-ldac-dsd512-pcm-768khz-hi-res-audio-hifi-decoder-headphone-amplifier
SMSL d1 se: apos.audio/products/smsl-vmv-d1se-mqa-dac?_pos=1&_sid=c5f7a1ec3&_ss=r&&sca_ref=459032.WbootYrpIv&sca_source=apos.audio/products/smsl-vmv-d1se-mqa-dac?_pos=1&_sid=c5f7a1ec3&_ss=r
amzn.to/3z8KxSH
shenzhenaudio.com/products/s-m-s-l-vmv-d1se-ess-es9038ro-chips-high-resolution-usb-dac-supports-mqa-decoding-dsd512-bluetooth-5-0-decoder
Related Videos:
The Headphone Shows' video on SINAD: th-cam.com/video/DlwIGPEhfGU/w-d-xo.html
SMSL VMV D1SE: th-cam.com/video/mUR8kLlPyfY/w-d-xo.html
SMSL M400 review: th-cam.com/video/6A33XvSX8rI/w-d-xo.html
Topping D90 review: th-cam.com/video/C0ziSsO5LKQ/w-d-xo.html
Burson Playmate 2: th-cam.com/video/Wx12k3qUu5E/w-d-xo.html
Burson Conductor 3: th-cam.com/video/3I-C9BtPa8I/w-d-xo.html
Burson Timekeeper 3i review: th-cam.com/video/hBDkd-DDjfA/w-d-xo.html
Burson Soloist 3x review: th-cam.com/video/4PG0taEZVH8/w-d-xo.html
Burson Funk review: th-cam.com/video/EkqkJ5P5Y2k/w-d-xo.html
I am loving totally the KLH M5's you suggested and purchased because of our recommendation. I am getting my SimAudio Moon CD-1 that has a Burr Brown.
I am trying to strategize how to push my system to be the best it can and thinking about what DACS will add value. One person suggested a Border Patrol DAC, which is a very NOS based. Would love to get an update when you have a chance.
Love you guys!!!
Hi Jay, Please review the Orchard Audio Starkrimson Stereo Ultra (with Upgraded Power Rail Capacitance).
@@clarice1001nights Firstly, congrats those are excellent speakers. Secondly I heard really good things about the border patrol and may review them in the future.
@@tallpaull9367 Not sure if Orchard Audio would want me to but I will def consider it if he ever reaches out. Cheers
@@Jayiyagi I bought the KLHs because of your recommendation. Would the Gustard x 18 or the Loxjie 50 be ok. I might be interested depending on them
It's a strange feeling - everything that you called disadvantages, I consider advantages 😉 No muddy marketing - only objective measurements and function descriptions. They all sound equally good, just choose the inputs/outputs and functions that you need.
Today all the measurements are great, measurements mean nothing to me. Some implementations can't be measured. I want listening review and comparison of differences.
objective measurements don't really tell you shit about sound quality. Only thing it does is that it doesn't sound like total a distorted mess
@@PaulClay46masonWVthose are literally the least reliable source of information possible lol.
I swear the only reason this crap flies in the audiophile world is that people can't gauge the quality of a sound system while listening from another one through the internet, cuz if we could probably blind test this stuff remotely the prices thing would change fast, very fast.
I believe Gisheli labs J2 used an older chip and upgraded/improved in other ways. I wonder if people skipped it because it didn’t have the latest chip. I think it sounds great for the money.
The J2 is an absolute jewel. It pairs really well with class d (crown xls especially) and has better Soundstage than my much more expensive Dacs...
J2 with USB is the best bang for the buck I've tried (over a dozen pop dacs)
Would have bought that if I didn't have the D70s.
I love the D42 inverious, it's a gem, although the F1260 factoid had a sweeter mid band...
Agreed j2 is fantastic, best dac I have ever owned. It uses ES9026 PRO which is one that almost no one ever used. They did a fantastic job implementing it.
IMO your logic is broken. The fact they are mostly similar does not mean they should not exist. It creates competition which lowers the price for people getting into the hobby. Also the filters will be called the same because its describing the function of the filter. What do you want them to call them? Fruit names instead of slow, fast or sharp, soft..etc? Silly.
I came into the comments to say something similar (and did), but allow me to add to yours -- so that other people reading yours will see it -- that a lot of supposedly brand-differentiated consumer durables out there are actually made at the same factory. Every single microwave on the planet comes from the same factory. Most smart phones. A great many kitchen appliances. Etc, etc, etc, etc.
I think he means that they all have the same function, not that they are called the same thing. Nomatter where you go an apple will still be an apple but these are all the same type of apples. Its like they are all red delicious apples. Nothing wrong with a red delicious apple. Good price and tasty but have you ever had a Fuji apple? Thats on a different league.
I dont disagree. I just opened my Fiio K7 and am enjoying it a lot but it is strangely similar to the topping DX3 pro plus.
I think the point is a lot of these companies ARE the same company behind the scenes which is not actually competition.
@@mikeg2491proof?
Been saying it for a long time... DACs are getting very tapped out and the performance is very close sonically speaking. I review insane DACs and even at these prices, there are many similarities.
Not all Chinese DACs sound the same. I’ve tried Topping, SMSL, and Loxjie. I finally settled on the Loxjie D50 with AKM 4499 chip. The Loxjie D50 Sounded the best to me compared to most ESS 9038 Pro chip equipped DACs, which seemed to be all clones made in 2021. Yes, It was a bad year for all DAC manufacturers when having to promptly change their DAC’s heart, the chip, after AKM fire. Chinese DACs allowed many budget minded audiophiles the opportunity to experience great sound without having to spend a ton of money. Yes money may not be an issue for some, but for the majority of music enthusiast I feel Chinese DACs was one of the best things that could’ve happened for the hi-fi community.
can you explain your test method of determining what dacs sound best and explain what that means?
the gustard x26 pro is the only to do it right with those ESS chips, but even then it still is not a long term daily driver for me. As for the other dacs with ESS chips...pure trash.
@@bobmenke3211 the test method was done listening to several different genres of music. I used symphony orchestra, female vocals, rock, and pop. Female vocals were most pleasing using the Loxjie D50. Rock and Pop music had good rhythm with good sub-bass. Well recorded symphony orchestra music and chamber music from 2L Audiophile Reference Music really showed how good the AKM4499 chip really is. The AKM “Velvet Sound” is a great description and not an exaggeration. Soundstage and imaging are really good. Center imaging is dead center. Noise-floor is nonexistent. The best sound quality seems to be with USB using ROON on dedicated Windows 10 HTPC. Every ESS based clone DAC I tried all fell short of musicality, soundstage, and imaging. These DACs included Loxjie D30, Topping DX7, SMSL M200 with AKM-4497. The SMSL M200 came in close second place but lacked overall refinement.
All dacs sound the same, well if it’s made correctly. It has a simple job to do after all.
Yeah but the Japanese did this in audio on the 80s but they were better at it both in sound production and quality control.
Chinese chips have a reputation for a reason
Isn’t the whole point of a dac, to make sure that the source signal is converted as transparently as possible? Unless you want it to colour the source.
Yes. And that is exactly what the vast majority of them do
Just don't confuse "transparency" with SINAD, I see that happens a lot in these discussions. Poor SINAD can hurt transparency, but after a certain threshold (probably 90dB), higher does not indicate more audible transparency. Just wanted to throw that out there for any newcomers looking at DACs
Bland sound doesn’t mean transparency bro
Guys, the difference in sound between DACS can be mostly attributed to the analogue stage rather than the chip used.
I am sure you realise that. 🙂
Where did you get that from ?.
right thats what makes high end dac expensive
Exactly...
No, that’s not true. I’ve been modding CD players and DACs for 30 years. The greatest difference begins at the source (server or CD transport) and interface (USB, I2S, SPDIF). The analogue stage and DAC chip are secondary. Chips can make a significant difference, more so than you think, but still less than analogue output stage.
@@JohnLee-db9zt it's not „server or CD transport” anymore. for that part it's bit-perfect or anything else.
I've found the Topping D90se (In DAC mode) as extra Clean , Clear & Crisp... Which makes it System Dependent. But when well matched its exceptional. Keeping it for sure
Not more "dependent", just more revealing from the original source. Lower fidelity / more colored DACs have much more chance of bad matching.
I hear what you're saying about all of these being very similar. They really can be. With regard to the filters, I could definitely be wrong, but I believe that those are baked into the DAC chip by the manufacturer. So, depending on if it's a Sabre, Cirrus Logic, Asahi Kasei etc, you're just switching through filters that are on the chip. If I'm wrong, I'm sure someone will let me know soon enough.
I also completely agree, they chase specs because people buy of the specs instead of what something actually sounds like. If it sounds amazing who cares about the specs?
Also, what a great time to be an audiophile. It's amazing how good this stuff sounds for the money these days.
true even realtek onboards sound acceptable nowadays
i came here to say pretty much this. I tihnk it is more about these various companies using same/similar AKM chips (for ex) and hence using the terminology associated with the spec of that chip. I just saw the descriptions for an AKM DAC and it has these exact same terms for tuning (?) and how each would sound (?) Anyway, yeah. diffierent companies slightly different implementation using chips from same company. maybe signature sound difference between the 2 implementations (?)
@@iikatinggangsengii2471it depends on your definition of acceptable.
Don’t forget that many people read measurements instead of listening to music. Some of them keep the unit turned off: after all it’s the same: the numbers are enough to judge. So it happens that many of them make rankings of dacs they have never owned, tested, or even seen. All based on some we guy’s measurements. And they will tell you how your dac sounds. Isn’t it funny?
@@DaveJ6515 How many of those who bought expensive DACs actually blind tested them tho? Cuz until they do measurements are a better way to judge a product than relying on heavily biased listening
A lot of the Chinese fans come with a similar remote as the DACs too. It is just a generic remote used for many appliances...
That's the point Jay made: A generic DAC with a generic remote, a cookie cutter DAC so to say.
@@hugobloemers4425 in short China junk
@@babagandu it’s not junk . Chinese Dacs are very good and useful products . It’s not the main component or weakest component in an audio chain. It does it’s job exceptionally well. If your setup sounds like shit , just because you’re using a low budget Chinese DAC , there’s something else going on .
There are differences here though. I find SMSL remotes to be more responsive compared to those from Topping for instance.
The filters are the same because they are industry standards in audio.
They go for measurements because the better the measurements the better the sound.
Quantifiable data means observable results. We should be thanking chinese brands because they raised the bar on cheaper audio. Things that used to cost thousands of dollars are now sub below a thousand bucks generally.
See Golden Sound's videos about how meaningless or manipulated these tests can be. He has an audio analyzer and actually explains how the tests are ran. A well measuring amp can sound worse because it has a compromise in the design that was made to look good in tests.
Like dieselgate?
Haha, I tried these cheap chinese DAC already. None can compared to a good reputable DAC from the West or Japan
You think you know what you are talking about, but you don't. I mean that literally, not because you have a different opinion on the matter.
"They go for measurements because the better the measurements the better the sound."
The fact that we can't measure everything we hear makes that statement false, but we'll ignore that for now. What also makes your statement false is you can't treat objective variables the same as subjective variables. Better measurements is a little vague, and really could mean everything. Some measurements aren't audible, and some are. Either way, a measurement is objective. Better sound is subjective. It can't be linked to any kind of objective factor, because its not. For example, is red a different color than blue? Yes it is, and we can back it up with some measurements. Is red a better color than blue? That's what you're doing. Better sound is subjective. There's no wrong answer, and there's no linking it to an objective variable.
"Quantifiable data means observable results. We should be thanking chinese brands because they raised the bar on cheaper audio. Things that used to cost thousands of dollars are now sub below a thousand bucks generally."
That's an emotional statement based on personal opinion. Price is not an objective variable. Its completely irrelevant from a scientific point of view. Without some context, there's no way to tell what it is you're talking about.
Before you try and argue with me over facts (there's no arguing facts, that's why they're facts), but you'll try anyway. I'm the guy that called out Amir and embarrassed him. I made the claim everything he did was junk science, and there was not a shred of real science being done. You could see that he thought it was funny and didn't think much of me or my claim. But then I proved it. He got mad, pulled the posts to avoid further embarrassment and ignored me from that point forward. You sound like one of his dedicated followers and probably saw the posts I'm referring to. And if you saw the posts you know you're on the loosing end of the argument. But if you insist, I can do it again.
@@AT-wl9yqyou can't tell if red is better than blue, but the point of an amp is to reconstruct sinusoids as faithfully as possible to the source, and that's measurable.
Your honesty is refreshing - well done!
You have a point but there is a night and day difference between the psu in a higher grade dacs between Topping and Gustard for instance.
It is really strange that dac companies haven't looked at what has been happening within the guitar digital modelling amplifier market.... As many guitar amps are programmable to offer a whole range of different famous tube and non tube guitar amps samples ....which are now getting surprisingly close to the real thing . ...Now just image a programmable dac with say 10 preset amp sound ranging from full tube sounds Macintosh, quad , decware etc, etc and then some Class A/B. sounds like. First watt, passlabs Audio research and krell etc and then maybe some hybrids and Class D....all in one DAC / preamp.
Now that would truly be something amazing ....for all those unable to afford the real deal would be happy with having something say 85% - 90% similar in sound signature.
Equally ....if digital recordings are often specially adjusted, remastered and compressed for vinyl then why can't this also be added and included into a dac as a presents ....labelled - vinyl master or something?!
I'm sure it may happen one day but it would revolutionise what is currently a very expensive hobby.
I wholeheartedly agree, but both Subjectivists and Objectivists call themselves purist and would poo poo it.
Then you are back to a processed sound that is always there. As long as you can turn it off and not hear a processed sound would be fine for most of the purists.
The VMP DAC does a similar thing at frame 10:29.
I've had similar frustrations lately.
I understand that having different options at different pricepoints is good, but when there are so many of what is essentially the same product just under different names, it gets pointless.
I've turned down a fair few review units lately cause I honestly just do not want to review what is basically the same product 5 times.
This sometimes even happens in the SAME company, look at the SMSL SU-8S and the SMSL DO200, they are literally identical other than the knob location
Would you ever consider reviewing the Cambridge Audio DacMagic 200m? I've scoured the internet and there are basically no available measurements. A review from you, especially with your comprehensive review style, would be quite interesting (not to mention - for lack of a better word "trailblazing").
you might be cause of frustration.
What makes a huge difference in sound are speakers and room acoustics
Most of us already know that.
I can see this being an issue if you are buying and listening to dozens of audio products but not for the listener that just wants to buy one DAC and move on. I see this as a general issue with youtube reviewers who seem to normalize the insane and unsustainable practice of constant consumerism. Don't look to manufacturers to fill life's void, just have fun!
Truth is most of us ....will only buy a few dacs...starting with a good budget unit, then upgrade a top chip dac or budget R2R ...and finally maybe get one more expensive R2R if funds allow.
Some audiophiles (not necessarily you) are 'married' to their gear. I like to think that, yes I love my gear, but . . . it's the music, and how real it sounds in my room, that marries me.
Chinese DACs are great but as you rightly point out their preamp sections are far from perfect. R2R DACs are fantastic as long as you do not try to connect your TV to them: according to John Darko there are lip sync issues. My imaginary ideal home office setup consists of a pair of Dynaudio LYD5, a silent PC running Audirvana and an excellent sub 800 USD DAC/preamp, linked to a TV. Any suggestions?
The filters have the same names because they are implemented in the ESS DAC chips by Sabre which all these DACs use.
This IS crazy. I saw your video while I was scouring TH-cam just now thinking how come there are so many new Chinese Dacs with names that are 24 characters long that do the same thing? And then I looked at Schiit and Denifriips, read all the reviews and said man I need to listen to those dacs before I spend 2000 bucks for a discrete DAC. Screw this, I'll just wait another season and see if I find something to replace my old dac.
These DAC's all implement the features built into the same handful of AKM and ESS DAC chips without adding anything extra. When it comes to DAC features and performance they're all sufficiently far beyond the point diminishing returns that there is little if any discernable difference between them. But the headline had me hoping for a deal on the Holo Audio May....
I absolutely love the performance of my L.K.S Audio LKS MH-DA004. I’ve had it for couple of years and it works really well with my audio system.
my took was the rme adi-2 fs , cause the eq and other setup possibilities and the build quality. it’s a kind of professional construction and build up quality
I hear you, and I appreciate the point you're making. But maybe it's time for us to use the DACs we've got, stop buying shit for the sake of it, and focus on things that have a bigger impact on our enjoyment of the music. Like, investigating more artists, looking into room treatment, equipment setup, isolation (from vibration), etc.
Indeed, preamps section kinda suck on these DACs, that's why I've been messing around on dedicated preamps from different designs. Preamp is equally important just like DAC and even amplifier.
What is meant by Preamp section? Im unclear. Are we talking the outputs that are not for Headphones, so Line Outputs?
I don't disagree, but you're still using the preamp section of a DAC no matter what -- it's the "A" in DAC. That's what really differentiates most DACs, and what you're paying for in the high-end
Nuprime Dac-10 is your hero then. Dac and pre are exceptional!! At under 2k.
So glad you said
@@asplmn Hmm. I thought the "A" was as in "Analogue"...
So the Matrix Element X is bad too?
Great video. I'd love to see the DAC manufacturers incorporate an eARC connection. Bluesound is in part killing it because they offer the simple functionality.
Not many people care about this feature tbh. i personally just use optical from my TV
I can't believe that any HIFI components retailing over 1K don't include an eARC input. This is unacceptable and retarded
@@juliangst totally disagree. One remote is a big convenience feature. My toddler makes needing multiple remotes a nightmare.
@@juliangst You do realize Optical isn't capable of lossless multichannel audio which represent over 90% of the movies?
This is the feature that is the most important to me. The optical audio from my Samsung 8K tv that did cost the equivalent to 6000$ (USD) brand new sounds terrible compared to bluetooth and earc audio.
So I think most of the cheaper tv's will not sound better and most will sound worse. It is time to move on to earc which will enable more practical features and increase the sound quality a lot.
Excellent point about the preamp sections. What good is “perfect” decoding if the preamp screws it up?
What about the SMSL D300 which is the Rohm based DAC?
As a Chinese, I was surprised by knowing those are Chinese brands, but not surprised by your opinion. At least we know it's not that hard to build a pretty good DAC. And these products may make HiFi more popular.
I am not sure what he means by preamp section? Maybe a reference to the output stage after the dac chip. While I have not listened to the new crop of Chinese dacs, I have liked some of the early ones like Matrix and really enjoyed that one. After decades of dacs, I have settled for now on a British model from Prism Sound the Lyra. I do also use a Chinese made ifi for my desktop setup.
Most Chinese DAC manufacturers do not make their own screens or remotes. They are from other OEM manufacturers. As for Denafrips, they omitted the screen. Hence, it is seen as different. However, that doesn't take away the fact that Chinese DACs like SMSL, and Toppings are great value for money and they do the job they are supposed to do.
That probably also applies to most non Chinese DACs lol.
Ever heard of Schiit Modi Multibit DAC?
How about the Zen Dac. Not Chinese but it has a completely different chip.
2:32 Yes, they have something common in their DACs. This is DAC microchip that provides those filters in 'hardware'? So the filters get same names as specified in some datasheet of the DAC microchip.
How much do you want for the Loxjie D50?
I agree with most of what you said. The display and remote is the human machine interface that allows us to control our experience. I don't care so much about the shape and color of the box/enclosure.
and measurements do matter whether audible differences it shows quality builds are being produced by the manufacturers
If it’s not audible… How is it showing quality?
If it has a distinct sound .. it a distortion
@@Jayiyagi how well its built...good measurements... have you ever done a blind abx test with those dac's? that would be real information. I watch your videos and subscribe and i thumbs up the ones I like. My patience with nothing but subjective opinion reviews is wearing a bit. I've been studying this for almost a year. Last year I bought a new audio system...A McIntosh MA5300 integrated with DA-2 dac module and a pair of Martin Logans Electromotion ESL's with a Thorens turntable to boot. I am not a cheapster, I just wish the reviews I've seen were more balanced with objective data. BTW, I got new speaker cables to go with my new system and they are from GearIt and cost 20 bucks a pair.
@@glennjones6574 How true, how true!
Thank you Jay, that's what I was trying to express in my comment, maybe I used too many words but I feel too many people have this idea that only specs matter and only the best specs create the best gear. I think that is not correct and correct me if I'm wrong but I think you were making at least a similar point along the way.
It sounds like double standards. Western DACs have no UI only with buttons or labyrinth-like UIs defined as classic or personality. Chinese DACs offer the similar UIs based on low price defined as boring. If you are chasing for Quality of DAC UIs, you can choose same top brands from China, eg. Auralic, Matrix, Lumin...
The products that are increasingly emerging from manufacturers of Chinese origin have reached a superb level! Period! We pay a fair value for these products! The important thing is the final sound! And not the origin of the manufacturer! Those who make reviews are very afraid to claim that a product from a Chinese manufacturer that costs 500 US dollars (for example) is better than one coming from another country that costs 5,000...Unfortunately any human being can consider himself an audio critic overnight.
And I don't say this as direct criticism, understand that! I respect the work that a TH-camr has to make himself heard! But not running away from the topic of conversation... Blessed are Chinese companies and their gifted professionals who offer us so much for so little making quality audio accessible to those with little money!
Yes the sound is the most important and that is why it is also important that Jay point out that most of them sound the same.
And yes the origin of the manufacturer is not important so why glorify the chinese companies when some reviewer on TH-cam gave valid critics about their product sounding the same?
@@kato2395 they all sound the same.. good. You're not supposed to be collecting amps or dacs for different sound signatures, you do that with EQ or different headphones. These things are as clean as can be and you won't need more than a single unit. Therefore it's irrelevant for you as a customer if they all sound the same, actually, it's better for you as a customer.
What about Denafrips ares 2 and Venus 2 ? hardly any features but solid DAC
Wich dac are you recomending at the moment?
Are there actually different companies or mosts are actually getting things manufactured from a couple of large contract manufacturers?
Where are the totem speakers you loved so much?
TY so much J 4 keeping it real!!! More outspokenness should lead to change my friend!
Topping PRE90 vs L70..which one you will chose?
I had a Matrix Mini I Pro 3 which is very functional since it has Airplay2 etc but I recently upgraded to a Denafrips Pontus 2 which is clearly a big step up. Musicality, timing , tonality , dark background , analogue sound etc. Suits my system very well. I’m sure the Holo May or Terminator 2 is even better. Unless they come up with much better chips ( which will happen in the future ) , it’s not for me atm.
please review Starkrimson Ultra amplifier
Would like to see you review the Prime Wireless Pro SoundBase
Any difference in dac sound quality is coming from a amp that's in the dac chain.
Just as I am entertaining the idea of a new DAC this video comes out. JAY, I just pieced together a system based on your suggestion (Lore Ref - SoundArtist Integrated and BlueSound Node. Do you think this setup would benefit from a DAC instead of using the internal in the Node and if so what might be a good fit in this system?
All these Chinese brands being very similar is normal. They all pull from the same parts bins.... also allows them to keep prices down. They don't all sound the same but many are very similar. I had several and all the ones ASR has tested the pre-amps are fine... your mad. When it comes to SINAD its not everything BUT it is important and there's research to back that up. If you want to achieve 16 or 24 but audio SINAD will have to be considered. But clearly that much dynamic range or freq range isn't necessary because people like vinyl (about 10bit/32khz). I'm not the type to pay extra for botique gear so I don't see a problem with what Chi-Fi is doing other than its become boaring and predictable but its giving the comman man great performance for less and taking money away from the fake pretentious a-holes selling snake oil.
It would be great if my dac had a sub-out or two. My amp while nice is basically has a Vinyl input for mm, two RCA inputs and a pre out. I can get by but a dedicated sub out could be variable say 45 to 120 Hz or so cutoff.
Just came across your VERY cogent and accurate comments. After many years of feeling the very same thing, after many decades of owning and collecting mostly 2-channel gear, from hand-wiring tube equipment myself, through to class T and D, I felt what you so nicely put into words, so thanks. And I never, ever wanna sell anything, either!
Always hoping for breakout innovation by manufacturers. I’ve always hated clones. I happen to be dying for shit to create a 50 white clase, integrated, aimed, primarily at Muirfield motors.
I have been looking for a new pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp to drive them. I wound up with an SMSL and Schiit amps on my desktop and was trying to decide if the Schiit was worth paying the extra money. After watching your video... I'm keeping the Schiit. Thanks!
I totally agree with your points Jay,However sometimes it’s a budget issue and you try to find the best unit in your price range unfortunately.I am saving for a used Gustard as being retired you buy what you can afford.In a perfect world I would purchase an RME or Lake People DAC
I have an X16 alongside a topping pre90. Sound is phenomenal with my power which is an eval-1 with the input buffer bypassed. I try to spend as little as possible without compromising the sound so if you're on budget I'd say this is the way to go
spending less on DAC, and larger portion on pre/power/integrate amp maybe a logical choice if you doesn't have unlimited budget
Isn’t the reason for identical filter names simply because the filters are part of the DAC chip?
I see people online agonizing about which whatever they should choose, when really everything out there is pretty good. In the bunches of dacs I’ve had I cannot say that I could tell any major difference between any of the filter settings. Decide by what features the unit has and what pleases your eye, not picking between the one that has .00001,distortion as opposed to.00004 - you’re not going to hear the difference.
What do you expect for the low asking price.
What about the Eversolo DMP-A6?
The vmv d2 i have comes to mind. Not only is it an exceptional dac, but the output is as good as the topping pre90. Now paired this with a topping pa5 and i'm blown away how good everything is sounding. Go big or go home
I'm still using my headphone jack from my laptop. Everything sounds wonderful. Am I missing something? My speakers are placed well away from from room boundaries. They are stand mounted Micca RB-42s. By the way... Nice review.
Yes?! 🤷♂️
You’ve probably never had a dac….
That's what I think as well when I listen to my Technics CD player.
Spend about 200$ on a Schiit modi 3 DAC and a Schiit Magni headphone amp with a good set of headphones. You will hear the difference.
could I get the link for the video at the start criticizing measurements?
Hello good man. I want to ask you. I'm in a dilemma right now. I have the following equipment. Yamaha MG10XU Mixer, 2 HS8 Monitors + HS8S Subwoofer, MSI-Vector Laptop with 13gen Intel core i9 13980hx, +Thunderboot 4 output, I think the graphics card doesn't matter as well as the SSD, the chipset itself. I am considering the purchase of a DAC and settled on the RME ADI-2 Pro FS. I'm hesitating about what interface to get to improve the sound. I mainly use my studio for guitar recordings and listening to quality music. What would you advise me about DAC and is it worth investing in? Or just get a good audio interface.
P.S. Thank you very much!
Can you review the new Bryston DAC?
great review.. which dac would you choose the merason dac 1 or denafrips venus 2 to pair with rogue cornus tube amp and maggie lrs +, dmpa6 streamer( im currently using the dac inside the a6)i want a bery musical , analog , organic dac with soul.. easy to listen abd draws you into the music?
Your comment about the sound profiles on the VMV D1se got me thinking:
The cheaper SMSL DACs also have this feature--did changing the sound profiles on these cheaper SMSLs also had a significant effect on the sound?
I have topping E50 and Fiio bta 30 pro and they DON’T SOUND ALIKE. Fiio is more in your face, but a bit less polished. I like it better
do200 vs d300 with r2r vs dual 9068...i hear there is difference in sound output...
Does that mean you're selling the SMSL VMV D1 SE as well?
Hey Jay, just a subscriber from Australia, luv your content, I am upgrading my system and some of your product reviews has been important in my purchase decisions to date,
Thankyou for the honesty and the quality video's.
Personally, I think the big problem with most of the dacs mentioned in this video (with perhaps the exception of the VMV) is that they don't pay enough attention to the ANALOG output stage. These companies don't focus enough on the analog section to make their products sound interesting or different from each other. It's really in the analog section of their designs where they could really improve. I'm sure that a separate section/dedicated box with an upgraded power supply; like higher quality caps, resistors and transformer, etc...would give a more special sound to some of these Chinese dacs. It's almost like they focused solely on the DIGITAL aspects of their dacs by using the chips to achieve low noise numbers; while totally ignoring the ANALOG aspects in their products. That's why Burson is very good, and a step up, Imho...because they pay more attention to the analog output stage. Seems like too many of these Chinese companies have forgotten the "A" in DAC. That's why they all seem to have that same sterile sound signature. Imho, I think that the best and easiest way to upgrade the sound of a component, is to add a better analog output supply. Companies other than Chinese (like Linn, Naim, Musical Fidelity, Macintosh, etc) have been doing this for years.
China junk
how do you know they are ignoring the analog section though? what sort of technical knowledge you possess to make a stance like that? do you have any suggestions of where to look to say that they're skimming on the analog output stage?
not to dismiss your point but you if you make such a statement you need to at least bring up some examples. besides I've had a few burson dac/amps and they're nice imo but nothing exceptional to the already available china-made counterparts.
I just got the VMV D1SE hope i made a good buy
I would like to follow up your answer to the ask how you know they are ignoring the analog section please?
Why does this comment sound very ignorant?
If 2 dacs really sound different (and did you do a blind abx test?) then one of them is defective
Then ALL dacs are defective, and who decides which one is right?
@@charlesgrubbs2101 Many people believe well designed dacs do sound the same. Features and build quality are the real difference. The Topping D90se is what I would buy if I needed an external dac. It measured awesome at Audiosciencereview.
@@bobmenke3211 but in audioscience no one listen anything...
The filters are built into the DAC chips and not something programmed by these various manufacturers. That is why they all have the same filters
as someone who is from Asia and is exposed to a wide range of these products north of us, what you said about redundancy and no innovation on them is 110% true. Whatever people say about this is not true yadah yadah, do open up your eyes. I feel these manufacturers are just waiting for the next innovation from overseas like vultures waiting to pounce on the next opportunity to mass produce it in cheaper boxes 🙄
I feel that both of you, you are not completely wrong in your criticism for the to many almost identical products, BUT I didn't see anywhere a very important (my opinion ! ) number and that is IMD (inter modulation distortion). The lower number "gets it all". Would you like to investigate in your presentations this "number" ? What a DAC can achieve when are mixed a tone at (let say) 180Hz with another one at 3.2 ~3.6KHz ? Even better what a digital amplifier can achieve with a 3.14KHz tone mixer with (let say) 14.7KHz ? Are the mixing "products" let say -85dB or less ?
So what dac are you using these days Jay?
Very much enjoy your videos. I currently use a Node (N130) via USB to Ares II DAC, do you feel adding an Iris inline would further improve the sound quality?
Wish there were more of these "beautiful sounding" DACs and amps that also measure as well as something tenth of the price.
Out of my Dozen Dacs my Burson Composer is by farrrr my Favorite from the down under 'bringing the Thunder'
🇦🇹 Str8 dac No headphone amp included I love that ! Espically the 4x double descrete Op-amps are interchangable and Sparkos SS3602 brought out some serious detail refinement but $90 bucks each ! Thanks Jay
As far as I can tell, Burson products are made in China, even if the design is done in Australia.
@@clivesutcliffe487 Mine was built in Australia ,
But personally i have nothing against buying China Fi some of the best audio gear by pricepoint is made in China .
I will put my (Chinese) Doge 10 integrated amp with Kt120 power tubes/Brimar Pre-tubes up against any amp in its pricepoint ! Amp sold under the Lua bran for $6400 U.S. but the Doge took it a step furher by adding all Clarity caps as notch filters and the rest of the caps are Nichicon and Mains/output transformer are Z10 core steel not many tube amps are this powerful in terms of Density/fullness/attack/dynamics
I paid 2k U.S. and I have had the Doge for over a year with no problems Doge under sold the amp and I have over 14 solid state amps nothing comes close in performace to the Chinese Doge its a GIANT KILLER @2k and only 59 pounds 😆
This is interesting. Here in Australia, there is a used denafrips for sales every week or two. But none for months for those identical sounding mid range topping smsl DACs.
I’m about to settle with the cayin n8ii, it is sick how complicated it gets just to hear music, I still need the image 5 speakers though when I buy that ocean view apartment
Would an audio interface be better since they are used for making music ?
You need to try the Gustard R26
SMSL D300? Or is that one different?
I'm trying to decide between the Rhubarb and the Gustard , or should I use them together ?
Need some advice on my DAC purchase either SMSL VMV d1se or M400? I do like the sound profiles on the ds1se.
You selling the Chinese dacs but into Chinese Tube amps?
Sounds like they sound audibly transparent. This is good. I look forward to the day when most everything is audibly transparent and people can focus on features and UI.
You can somewhat do this today I think. It's just that people are fighting their own perceptions of "audibly transparent" or what sounds like "real music" to them.
Speakers and room are still the biggest differences though
You must be one of the most boring persons alive.
You probably dont enjoy music, you just like noise.
In all honesty, I had a hard time hearing any difference between my $1700 Denafrips Pontus 2 and $700 Topping D90 (4499). Maybe my hearing isn't as sharp as others. I've also owned dacs from Gustard, Schiit and SMSL. The only one I truly disliked was my Schiit Gungnir Multibit. It sounded muffled and dull to me. Good thing about these dacs is they have solid resale value. After seeing Zeos' review of the FiiO K9 Pro ESS, I bought it and plan on sticking with it for a while.
Love what you are saying man
Diminishing returns in hi fi?
Good. Thanks. Spot on. I see this phenomenon with many Chinese products.
Hey Jay, what stands do you use in your desk for the LS50s ? Been locking for some 😅
Glad you excluded Denafrips. They are definitely a step above Topping and…
Can You help me? What is better? Topping DX3 Pro or combo Topping E30 + Topping L30?