The Russian revolution would be, at first, a capitalist, industrial revolution, to remove the tsarist and feudal aristocracy from power, and to place the bourgeoisie in government. The Bolsheviks ran ahead and made a socialist revolution. They even say that the revolution was financed by big capitalists. The victory of the Bolsheviks generated a reaction from the international bourgeoisie, which sent troops to Russia to fight the Bolsheviks. At the request of Lenin, Trotsky founded the Red Army and traveled throughout Russia by train and secured the survival of the socialist revolution. But the bureaucracy, created to administer the revolution, seized power and put Stalin as ironforehead.
Every discussion he hosts is like this, regardless of topic. The guy is a treasure. You can tell that Hitchens and Service both respect it and the conversation is all the better because of it.
Yeah although he shouldn;'t have been hesitant to call stalin a conservative. Everyone who's educated on the subject knows he was a conservative communist.
Not only a respectful and enlightening debate (enhanced by a well informed and professional moderator) between two formidable intellectuals and great communicators, but between two of the most outstanding experts on the subject of Trotsky and his place in the history of the Russian Revolution and Marxist theory in general. What a feast of knowledge to savor! It makes even sadder the loss of Christopher Hitchens.
"He's one of the very few people of the communist movement about which it would be worth asking that question" - Hitchens' opening statement about whether Trotsky was good or bad. Prime example of the complexity of thought demonstrated by the man on the subject, hardly 'cretinous and insane doting' or 'fawning'. Also, if you care to investigate his record on Iraq you'll understand why he sided with the pro-war bunch, again his thought process a bit more complex than the neocon administration.
This conversation demonstrates why Joe Rogan became the most watched interviewer in history. This interviewer asks these authors to answer questions that deserve ten minutes in one or two sentences. Humans were starving for long form conversations because we were being exposed to this for years.
Wow. What intellectual powerhouses... I feel like I should have paid admission. Very grateful for the Hoover Institute. I've learned so much through these interviews.
I loved this video. Two extremely knowledgeable minds in regards to trotsky (despite my general lack of interest in the man) with quite contrasting opinions and perspectives, both enlightening and complimentary to each other.
No, he's actually fairly ignorant about the Kronstadt rebellion and takes a conventional unquestioning view, & like many views of his, predetermined by the works of Orwell.
Tripp K I agree with you on Hitchens ignorance on certain and specific topics , however, I would argue that his perspective is being rather largely "Influenced" by Orwell, than Pre-Determined because of the significance of the word
Molly Streames The Soviet government was supposed to just "let" a mutiny occur in the middle of the civil war? It's holding a certain country to ridiculous standards he would never assign to another one, and he does this because it's fashionable and conventional.
Wow, an Uncommon Knowledge with Hitchens!!?? Somebody pinch me, please. We lost so much with the passing of Mr. Hitchens, but at least we still have archival interviews of high quality like this.
If anyone can find writings by Trotsky that share these men's thesis, that Trotsky supported the Winter War (Soviet vs Finland) or the Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact (carving up Poland) I'd like to see it. I've googled around the original texts that Trotsky wrote in 1938-1940 and found only a prescient Trotsky absolutely stern about doing what's best for workers as the huge capitalist powers dance into war and the paranoid bureacracy led by Stalin makes any deal that will save its bureaucratic bacon. I read second hand, that Trotsky supported one of both of these atrocities or changed his mind in some way, and would gratefully accept any proof in his own writing, which seems to be the opposite. It's not as if Trotsky hid his thoughts. He wrote continuously and the thread of empowering workers runs through it all. His early warnings about Hitler (1933) and softness in the Western governments regarding Hitler is consistent throughout.
When Trotsky formed the Red Army under Lenin's authority, he did it by threatening the families of former Tsarist officers. They had to join up and serve loyally , or bad things would happen to their relatives. If you did not have a family to threaten, you could not be a Red Army officer in the beginning - that's Trotsky.
It's far more interesting to listen to Hitchens talk about something he has some history and knowledge of rather than debating "How liberals are abolishing Christmas" or some other such rubbish on Fox.
20:09 - 20:37 There was a quote from Sir Hiram Stevens Maxim book (who designed the Maxim machineguns and other technology [electrical lights competitive to Edison, was going to beat the Wright brothers for the first controlled flight, etc.] ) called Li Hung Chang's Scrap-Book in memory to the named politician and friend of Maxim. It's interesting since those people (and still today) have a significantly better life than their ancestors did centuries ago due to educational/scientific/mathematical/technological advancements, but still have illogical beliefs no different than their ancestors. In the book, Sir Maxim says "The Chinese were generally puzzled as to how it was possible for people who are able to build locomotives and steamships to have a religion based on a belief in devils, ghosts, impossible miracles, and all the other absurdities and impossibilities peculiar to the religion taught by the missionaries."
Trostky was an excellent, stylish writer. That's why writers like the late Hitch liked him so much. But he was another Lenin, or Stalin. Dude was a mass murderer.
I think it is really hard to comprehend such a radically different state of the world - one where World War I & II did not happen. Those events have so deeply colored our world. It almost seems too hypothetical to really be able to come up with an answer that can have real certainty. You simply have to make too many assumptions.
Had Trotsky gained the position of being the vanguard of the proletariat, we would be sitting here discussing how much better the soviet union would have been "If only had Stalin gained power"
I used to like Hitch. For his showmanship. Once you start listening to the man it's mostly intestinal gas. He likes Trotsky for his ideas to oppose Stalin when Stalin was out to kill him. He likes Trotsky because he liked literature.
This notion about Trotsky believing the the "proletariat" could not asume leadership is super, super important in the overstanding of the playing out of the social algorithm
It seems to me that Trotsky followed a career path similar to Malcolm X. Both died with regret of their earlier pursuits and attempted to change their views later in life.
"Trotsky was in favour of carrying on the revolution to other countries, Germany and China in particular." I can understand Germany being a powerful nation at the time but China? Why China?
coweatsman The empires had interests in China. Capitalism and free enterprise are not the same thing. There is no such thing as the free market either. It requires regulations.
Trotsky was a great orator and a great writer , also Trotsky was the creator of the red Army , whom he lead ferociously against the Imperialistic facist white army , who Trotsky defeated .
The-Great- LFC You've discredited you're own statement by making an unimaginative, childish and cliche statement "imperialistic fascist" white army. The white army was a mixture of different people with varying motivations, some simply didn't want to be under communism. That doesn't make them all bad or neither fascist or imperialistic. If you also break down the actual meaning of 'imperialistic' and 'fascist' both of those could describe what became of the Soviet Union.
I enjoyed Hitchen's talks. In my view, the talk of, "what if" about folks like Trotsky and Guevara are a waste of time. In both cases, they had no problem using brutality to further their cause. I think it can be said of both, they were morally bankrupt and ideological hypocrites. Just like Lincoln, they mentioned at the end. I'm open to correction, but that is how I see it now. Excellent talk though. These types of men are becoming a thing of the past. We live in reactionary times.
+Marco Ermini Robert Service, though obviously factual in his claims, strikes me as a real philistine. He doesn't understand both the complexity of Trotskyism as an ideology, nor - and this perhaps aids the latter - does he think it worth any consideration. Trying to understand Trotsky without dealing with, in detail, the left oppositionist movements across the globe he directly inspired, is a complete waste of time to me; which is why I prefer, for it all it's idealism and faults, Deutscher's trilogy of Trotsky, not least for it's sheer literary value - something Service, of course, comes no where near matching.
To be generous with your comment, I'd say you have unrealistic expectations regarding the responses of people being interviewed in real time. I'd like to hear how "nuanced" your conversation is on major figures on the spot with limited time to talk. In this video discussion you and Hitchens were forced to hear ugly things about your hero Trotsky, and you can't handle it.
Very well said. Trotsky was perhaps the least offensive to human rights of the Bolsheviks, but that's like saying the least offensive cockroach in a kitchen.
Robert Service at 32:00 may as well have been talking about Hitchens' state toward the end of this discussion which thoroughly discredited his hero Trotsky.
Ideologically speaking, Trotsky became a Marxist-Leninist when he joined the Bolshevik Party after the first Russian Revolution in February 1917. Leninist theory is based in vanguardism - The establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat led by a revolutionary vanguard party as the political prelude to the establishment of communism. Does the application of this theory only become a problem for Trotsky once Joseph Stalin is leading the vanguard party and not him? Could vanguardism simply open the door for authoritarianism, dictatorship, and what we now call Stalinism?
Interestingly, these three man, Robinson, Hitchens, and Service, all attended Oxford University, respectively. In fact, I believe Robinson and Hitchens both have their BA in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics from the institution. Intellectuals, all of them.
@AndrewMann552 @AndrewMann552 They were not debating that, were they? Service pointed out that the Left's image of Trotsky is a rather romantic one since his political opinions on repression and war were very similar to Stalin's. Whether you think troskyism/stalinism should rule the streets of Greece right now is another matter.
To everyone who has read the Trotsky-Biography written by Service: I am deeply sorry for you that you put yourself through this. From what I've heard and seen there's just a lot of lies and mistakes in the book. Service was harshly criticised for publishing the book with the obvious intention of making people loosing interest in Trotsky and to make them even dislike him. If he didn't succsed and you are still interested in actually learning something about why Trotsky was such an fascinating and important figure in history, you could read the Trotsky-Biography published by Isaac Deutscher.
@iago201 I agree hitchens is such a smart fella, THere are some great videos of him on yt some of the are about current affairs in the 90s if your interested and there are a few on the founding fathers
It's a shame this interview wasn't with Hitchens and Stephen Kotka. Kotka would have ripped Hitchens a new one over Trotsky. I say that as a huge admirer of Hitchens. But on this matter he is simply wrong and Kotka would have schooled him very politely with a vastly superior understanding of the time Trotsky operated in and the real drivers of decision by Trotsky & others. You can find plenty of Kotka's interviews, lectures and discussions on Russia ans the Revolution and Stalin, Trotsky & Lenin on youtube. If you want a real education, I urge you to watch some of them.
Robinson really let himself down here. he's sat with two fantastic intellectuals and doesnt take in a word either of them say. Instead he chooses to just relentlessly relay quotations from service's work to the pair. He brings nothing to the table himself, and seems content to merely cut hitchens and service off just when they are getting to the crux of their argument. The depth of knowledge and analysis which two pair exemplify however is frankly inspiring.
I understand that it's hard for this scholars but they never talked about the destiny... the maening of Stalin for USSR, Paranoia, famine, and all this old rotten lables without the discussion about historical destiny, Was industrialisation and collectivisation necessary? Did something like that happened in other countries? Was it soft or hard in other countries? How long did it take? Where in the hell the world would have ended if the USSR didn't manage to prepare to beat Hitler?
+Theun de groot It was because of the time limit. This discussion could have lasted for more than an hour easily. Nevertheless, it was lovely to see Hitchens being so insecure and dodgy, quite unusual of him. He wasn't so arrogant and bold this time. His desperate but somewhat ineffective attempts to defend Trotsky are also very meaningful. His hypocrisy got really exposed here, especially in that part when he conceded that Trotsky's prose was a "little thuggish". And Hitchens says that about a guy who wrote a book actually titled "In defence of terror", in which he endorsed any brutal and ruthless measures as a means to achieve his political objectives, that is, to seize power and achieve dominance. Was it really that that hard for Hitchens to see how his spiritual father was similar to Hitler in this case? Trotsky was a devious criminal, who was indeed power hungry, and whose hidden devilish agenda was to uproot the good old order, unleash hell and enslave the world. That was the real purpose of the so-called revolution, and that was the purpose of the USSR, most anti-humane and genocidal political systems that ever existed, which Trotsky designed himself and for which he laid ideological foundations. If Hitchens couldn't understand all that it means he was just a naive "useful idiot" which I doubt. If he did, then it leads me to believe that he was just a cynical and dishonest conmen, which is typical for communists, who was additionally fanatically blinded by convictions which he adopted in his youth, and that reveals how irrational and immature he was in fact.
***** When I compared Trotsky to Hitler I did not mean that they were equal in terms of the death toll, or suffering and destruction that they brought about. To make such comparisons is rather futile and pointless anyway. What I meant is that this two had a very similar mindset and personality. They were bold, ruthless, cynical and shared similar contempt for human life, and that expressed itself in their rhetoric and action. They were also great visionaries, very passionate and charismatic figures. In my opinion the similarity is striking. They both played in the same league of totalitarian ideologues and tyrants. If Hitler is indeed so akin to Trotsky and embedded in our culture as an epitome of ultimate evil and a horrific, sinister villain, then what is the matter with Hitchens making his relentless exhortations in favour of the latter, as if he tried to vindicate him. One may get an impression that he would make a saint of Trotsky if he could. But the figures of Trotsky and the like deserve utmost condemnation rather then vindication. I find it absolutely preposterous that Hitchens decided to defend such a lost cause in the name of youthful ideals that he clung to so tenaciously.
+Tomasz Serafin I don't think Hitchens was insecure at all. I believe this is the right tone for an academic discussion and actually gives very smart answers. If you have to talk to dumb theologians there is very little to argue about.
+Tomasz Serafin you are very wrong about Trotsky. You are actually just lying on the kind of misinformation spread by Stalinists communists about Trotsky. I invite you to read his autobiography.
The guy asks, "Is Trostsky a good guy or a bad guy?" Hitchens: "He's one of the few that it is worth asking that questions." Yes Hitchens it is a question worth asking. How about answering it?
They spent the entire length of this video attempting to answer that question. There is clearly no black/white answer for a question like that; it would be ridiculously simplistic to say he was "good" or "bad". Try not to be a simpleton. Peter Robinson was not posing that question in hopes of a 1-word reply. He was posing it semi-rhetorically, as a way of initiating the conversation.
Every time, in such debate, they forgot to mention, the condition in which these ideas were created. Europe as a whole was marked by living condition that were apocalyptic. Just the 1918 the Spanish flu and the WW1 were terrifying events, the 1929 economic crisis was brutal. It is normal that in order to change things, one would probably be going of the rail a little bit in front of such crazy phenomenon. Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky were simply men of their times, thinking of a better life for every one. Their ideas were simply as brutal as the world they were living in. As of the pertinence of their ''meditation'', well at least we can conclude that they went off the rails to a point that they ended on the wrong track.
Great discussion. I get the feeling that Service would have indeed been at the service of the Whites if he were alive then. Makes me not really want to read his book. Now if Hitchens were to write a biography of Trotsky . . . ;D
Maybe it's when you get passed a certain age you realize that your romanticism of someone was blinded. Happy he left trotskyism and realized there were better people to admire such people as Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson based on ideology and actions.
They just don’t make it like this anymore. Everything at the present seems so dumb. Truly regrettable.
What is outstanding is the solid research done by the moderator.
yeh, he knew his shit alright
The Russian revolution would be, at first, a capitalist, industrial revolution, to remove the tsarist and feudal aristocracy from power, and to place the bourgeoisie in government. The Bolsheviks ran ahead and made a socialist revolution. They even say that the revolution was financed by big capitalists. The victory of the Bolsheviks generated a reaction from the international bourgeoisie, which sent troops to Russia to fight the Bolsheviks. At the request of Lenin, Trotsky founded the Red Army and traveled throughout Russia by train and secured the survival of the socialist revolution. But the bureaucracy, created to administer the revolution, seized power and put Stalin as ironforehead.
Every discussion he hosts is like this, regardless of topic. The guy is a treasure. You can tell that Hitchens and Service both respect it and the conversation is all the better because of it.
Yeah although he shouldn;'t have been hesitant to call stalin a conservative. Everyone who's educated on the subject knows he was a conservative communist.
@@iancalvert417 conservative communist has to be an oxymoron.
such a misleading title. i was hoping to see trotsky back via time travel with hitchens and service.
Hitchens read everything but the Surgeon General's Warning on a pack of cigarettes.
Not only a respectful and enlightening debate (enhanced by a well informed and professional moderator) between two formidable intellectuals and great communicators, but between two of the most outstanding experts on the subject of Trotsky and his place in the history of the Russian Revolution and Marxist theory in general. What a feast of knowledge to savor! It makes even sadder the loss of Christopher Hitchens.
"He's one of the very few people of the communist movement about which it would be worth asking that question" - Hitchens' opening statement about whether Trotsky was good or bad. Prime example of the complexity of thought demonstrated by the man on the subject, hardly 'cretinous and insane doting' or 'fawning'. Also, if you care to investigate his record on Iraq you'll understand why he sided with the pro-war bunch, again his thought process a bit more complex than the neocon administration.
This conversation demonstrates why Joe Rogan became the most watched interviewer in history. This interviewer asks these authors to answer questions that deserve ten minutes in one or two sentences. Humans were starving for long form conversations because we were being exposed to this for years.
Wow. What intellectual powerhouses... I feel like I should have paid admission. Very grateful for the Hoover Institute. I've learned so much through these interviews.
I have not seen people talking about Trotsky in a long time. This was smart and interesting. Thanks for the great upload.
This interview should have been at least three times longer at least
I loved this video. Two extremely knowledgeable minds in regards to trotsky (despite my general lack of interest in the man) with quite contrasting opinions and perspectives, both enlightening and complimentary to each other.
Fantastic discussion. Thanks to the Hoover Institution for posting.
Why isn’t there more tv like this now?
Hitchen's knowledge is amazing. He can sound so knowledgeable beside an academic who just wrote a 600 page book about Trotsky.
No, he's actually fairly ignorant about the Kronstadt rebellion and takes a conventional unquestioning view, & like many views of his, predetermined by the works of Orwell.
Tripp K I agree with you on Hitchens ignorance on certain and specific topics , however, I would argue that his perspective is being rather largely "Influenced" by Orwell, than Pre-Determined because of the significance of the word
How to you come to that conclusion Tripp and I wouldn't say hitch was unquestioning
Molly Streames The Soviet government was supposed to just "let" a mutiny occur in the middle of the civil war? It's holding a certain country to ridiculous standards he would never assign to another one, and he does this because it's fashionable and conventional.
"and he does this because it's fashionable and conventional."
Oh come on. He never cared for what was fashionable.
Wow, an Uncommon Knowledge with Hitchens!!?? Somebody pinch me, please. We lost so much with the passing of Mr. Hitchens, but at least we still have archival interviews of high quality like this.
If anyone can find writings by Trotsky that share these men's thesis, that Trotsky supported the Winter War (Soviet vs Finland) or the Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact (carving up Poland) I'd like to see it.
I've googled around the original texts that Trotsky wrote in 1938-1940 and found only a prescient Trotsky absolutely stern about doing what's best for workers as the huge capitalist powers dance into war and the paranoid bureacracy led by Stalin makes any deal that will save its bureaucratic bacon. I read second hand, that Trotsky supported one of both of these atrocities or changed his mind in some way, and would gratefully accept any proof in his own writing, which seems to be the opposite.
It's not as if Trotsky hid his thoughts. He wrote continuously and the thread of empowering workers runs through it all. His early warnings about Hitler (1933) and softness in the Western governments regarding Hitler is consistent throughout.
When Trotsky formed the Red Army under Lenin's authority, he did it by threatening the families of former Tsarist officers. They had to join up and serve loyally , or bad things would happen to their relatives. If you did not have a family to threaten, you could not be a Red Army officer in the beginning - that's Trotsky.
Interesting and enlightening. Leaves a lot of issues in need of more discussion.
All praise for programs like this!
It's far more interesting to listen to Hitchens talk about something he has some history and knowledge of rather than debating "How liberals are abolishing Christmas" or some other such rubbish on Fox.
10:18 - Hitchens works very hard not to show how delicious that was for him.
20:09 - 20:37 There was a quote from Sir Hiram Stevens Maxim book (who designed the Maxim machineguns and other technology [electrical lights competitive to Edison, was going to beat the Wright brothers for the first controlled flight, etc.] ) called Li Hung Chang's Scrap-Book in memory to the named politician and friend of Maxim. It's interesting since those people (and still today) have a significantly better life than their ancestors did centuries ago due to educational/scientific/mathematical/technological advancements, but still have illogical beliefs no different than their ancestors.
In the book, Sir Maxim says "The Chinese were generally puzzled as to how it was possible for people who are able to build locomotives and steamships to have a religion based on a belief in devils, ghosts, impossible miracles, and all the other absurdities and impossibilities peculiar to the religion taught by the missionaries."
That tells you how hard our cultures are to understand each other, hence our trade war .
Trostky was an excellent, stylish writer. That's why writers like the late Hitch liked him so much. But he was another Lenin, or Stalin. Dude was a mass murderer.
I think it is really hard to comprehend such a radically different state of the world - one where World War I & II did not happen. Those events have so deeply colored our world. It almost seems too hypothetical to really be able to come up with an answer that can have real certainty. You simply have to make too many assumptions.
Had Trotsky lived in American he would have reinvented himself as a theater
and film director " Revolution through Art
Had Trotsky gained the position of being the vanguard of the proletariat, we would be sitting here discussing how much better the soviet union would have been "If only had Stalin gained power"
I used to like Hitch. For his showmanship. Once you start listening to the man it's mostly intestinal gas. He likes Trotsky for his ideas to oppose Stalin when Stalin was out to kill him. He likes Trotsky because he liked literature.
Fantastic book by the way. Nice to see Hitchens talking with someone who knows more than him on a subject.
@bapyou
Because they realize that to understand one's own position, one must understand one's opponent's position equally.
This notion about Trotsky believing the the "proletariat" could not asume leadership is super, super important in the overstanding of the playing out of the social algorithm
Isaac deutscher seems like the most interestimg of the historians.
Trotsky sees, close to the end, that possibly the entire edifice was based on delusional ideology. What a rich bit of irony.
I like the way Service pronounces the word "Reich." I don't know why but I do.
Great video! If only the moderator could have interrupted his guests mid-thought more often.
Always have loved Hitchens but as a real leftie he never went to live in a Communist country but landed up in America!!
Goddamn I miss Hitch.
anyone else catch that at 24:51?
"even if extended by bayonets."
so subtle. great line Mr. Hitchens!
Great interview. Thanks for sharing.
Pleasant discussion. Harder to find dialogues where a moderator/interviewer isn't trying to paint someone as a controversial character nowadays.
goddamn that was good
Better watch and listen on TH-cam to Dr. AnthonySutton : WallStreet and The Bolshevic
Revolution
Peter--- do not interrupt.
It seems to me that Trotsky followed a career path similar to Malcolm X. Both died with regret of their earlier pursuits and attempted to change their views later in life.
Now I understand so much better my friend from Mexico City who on the fall of the Soviet Union noted that it hadn’t followed “pure” communism.
"Trotsky was in favour of carrying on the revolution to other countries, Germany and China in particular."
I can understand Germany being a powerful nation at the time but China? Why China?
coweatsman The empires had interests in China. Capitalism and free enterprise are not the same thing. There is no such thing as the free market either. It requires regulations.
I wish this was longer
Trotsky was a great orator and a great writer , also Trotsky was the creator of the red Army , whom he lead ferociously against the Imperialistic facist white army , who Trotsky defeated .
The-Great- LFC You've discredited you're own statement by making an unimaginative, childish and cliche statement "imperialistic fascist" white army. The white army was a mixture of different people with varying motivations, some simply didn't want to be under communism. That doesn't make them all bad or neither fascist or imperialistic.
If you also break down the actual meaning of 'imperialistic' and 'fascist' both of those could describe what became of the Soviet Union.
I enjoyed Hitchen's talks. In my view, the talk of, "what if" about folks like Trotsky and Guevara are a waste of time. In both cases, they had no problem using brutality to further their cause. I think it can be said of both, they were morally bankrupt and ideological hypocrites. Just like Lincoln, they mentioned at the end. I'm open to correction, but that is how I see it now. Excellent talk though. These types of men are becoming a thing of the past. We live in reactionary times.
this would have been much better if the host didnt interrupt them every 5 seconds, its ridiculous how many times he cuts across them mid-point
I believe Hitchens actually understands the nuances of Trotsky and Trotskyism much better than Service.
+Marco Ermini Robert Service, though obviously factual in his claims, strikes me as a real philistine. He doesn't understand both the complexity of Trotskyism as an ideology, nor - and this perhaps aids the latter - does he think it worth any consideration. Trying to understand Trotsky without dealing with, in detail, the left oppositionist movements across the globe he directly inspired, is a complete waste of time to me; which is why I prefer, for it all it's idealism and faults, Deutscher's trilogy of Trotsky, not least for it's sheer literary value - something Service, of course, comes no where near matching.
yonis gure I totally agree. I shall dig out the Deutscher's books out of my bookshelves
Service's Trotsky & Lenin biography is full of fictionalization and misquotes as well as a clear lack of objectivity.
To be generous with your comment, I'd say you have unrealistic expectations regarding the responses of people being interviewed in real time. I'd like to hear how "nuanced" your conversation is on major figures on the spot with limited time to talk. In this video discussion you and Hitchens were forced to hear ugly things about your hero Trotsky, and you can't handle it.
Tripp Read the Black Book of Communism- objectively 200 million people dead.
Just bought Lenin and Stalin by Service, Lenin is great so far. love and miss you Hitch.
Very well said. Trotsky was perhaps the least offensive to human rights of the Bolsheviks, but that's like saying the least offensive cockroach in a kitchen.
Robert Service at 32:00 may as well have been talking about Hitchens' state toward the end of this discussion which thoroughly discredited his hero Trotsky.
Ideologically speaking, Trotsky became a Marxist-Leninist when he joined the Bolshevik Party after the first Russian Revolution in February 1917. Leninist theory is based in vanguardism - The establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat led by a revolutionary vanguard party as the political prelude to the establishment of communism. Does the application of this theory only become a problem for Trotsky once Joseph Stalin is leading the vanguard party and not him? Could vanguardism simply open the door for authoritarianism, dictatorship, and what we now call Stalinism?
The interviewer should stop trying to interrupt the genuinely interesting conversation with restless mentions of time constraints
I've read service's books stalin and trotsky. Great books. Service doesn't display any bias in trotsky. Read it, its great
Interestingly, these three man, Robinson, Hitchens, and Service, all attended Oxford University, respectively. In fact, I believe Robinson and Hitchens both have their BA in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics from the institution. Intellectuals, all of them.
Everyone who goes to Oxford is an intellectual? Hm...
@AndrewMann552 @AndrewMann552 They were not debating that, were they? Service pointed out that the Left's image of Trotsky is a rather romantic one since his political opinions on repression and war were very similar to Stalin's. Whether you think troskyism/stalinism should rule the streets of Greece right now is another matter.
They could have don this over 2 hours why only 30 min?? Its the internet...
To everyone who has read the Trotsky-Biography written by Service: I am deeply sorry for you that you put yourself through this. From what I've heard and seen there's just a lot of lies and mistakes in the book. Service was harshly criticised for publishing the book with the obvious intention of making people loosing interest in Trotsky and to make them even dislike him. If he didn't succsed and you are still interested in actually learning something about why Trotsky was such an fascinating and important figure in history, you could read the Trotsky-Biography published by Isaac Deutscher.
Thanks for uploading this. Quite interesting.
@iago201 I agree hitchens is such a smart fella, THere are some great videos of him on yt some of the are about current affairs in the 90s if your interested and there are a few on the founding fathers
So people used to have good TV shows. Now we have crappy youtube shows all over the place.
great insight...my thought being...Stalin was local...while Trotsky was thinking global...
Russia NEVER has clear cut good or bad guys
It's a shame this interview wasn't with Hitchens and Stephen Kotka. Kotka would have ripped Hitchens a new one over Trotsky. I say that as a huge admirer of Hitchens. But on this matter he is simply wrong and Kotka would have schooled him very politely with a vastly superior understanding of the time Trotsky operated in and the real drivers of decision by Trotsky & others. You can find plenty of Kotka's interviews, lectures and discussions on Russia ans the Revolution and Stalin, Trotsky & Lenin on youtube. If you want a real education, I urge you to watch some of them.
I can't find any of Kotka's lectures on TH-cam.
@@gurgortsac
archive.org/details/stephen-kotkin-paradoxes-of-power-audio
archive.org/details/stephen-kotkin-waiting-for-hitler-audio
Enchanted as always with Hitchens.....merci,ana maria
Robinson really let himself down here. he's sat with two fantastic intellectuals and doesnt take in a word either of them say. Instead he chooses to just relentlessly relay quotations from service's work to the pair. He brings nothing to the table himself, and seems content to merely cut hitchens and service off just when they are getting to the crux of their argument. The depth of knowledge and analysis which two pair exemplify however is frankly inspiring.
@MikhailSilverwood (have you noticed Hitchens is very much pro-Trotsky?)
WHY THE NEED TO ADMIRE HIM?
In my opinion. The moment this "discussion" started. Peter Robinson already set his ears to listen to Service. I really think he's bias.
that was fantastic. Thank you
I hate interviews with time limits and interviewers that interrupt the interviewee.
TV is TV there's not much you can do.
A longer interview with these extremely knowledgeable and eloquent guys would have been nice though.
Im sure it wasn't his idea.
Why do you put the interviewer on a pedestal?
Great interview.
I understand that it's hard for this scholars but they never talked about the destiny... the maening of Stalin for USSR, Paranoia, famine, and all this old rotten lables without the discussion about historical destiny, Was industrialisation and collectivisation necessary? Did something like that happened in other countries? Was it soft or hard in other countries? How long did it take? Where in the hell the world would have ended if the USSR didn't manage to prepare to beat Hitler?
Probably the only area where I disagree with C. Hitchens......
Fascinating, but the interviewer makes a restless, nervous affair of this interesting conversation
+Theun de groot It was because of the time limit. This discussion could have lasted for more than an hour easily. Nevertheless, it was lovely to see Hitchens being so insecure and dodgy, quite unusual of him. He wasn't so arrogant and bold this time. His desperate but somewhat ineffective attempts to defend Trotsky are also very meaningful. His hypocrisy got really exposed here, especially in that part when he conceded that Trotsky's prose was a "little thuggish". And Hitchens says that about a guy who wrote a book actually titled "In defence of terror", in which he endorsed any brutal and ruthless measures as a means to achieve his political objectives, that is, to seize power and achieve dominance. Was it really that that hard for Hitchens to see how his spiritual father was similar to Hitler in this case? Trotsky was a devious criminal, who was indeed power hungry, and whose hidden devilish agenda was to uproot the good old order, unleash hell and enslave the world. That was the real purpose of the so-called revolution, and that was the purpose of the USSR, most anti-humane and genocidal political systems that ever existed, which Trotsky designed himself and for which he laid ideological foundations. If Hitchens couldn't understand all that it means he was just a naive "useful idiot" which I doubt. If he did, then it leads me to believe that he was just a cynical and dishonest conmen, which is typical for communists, who was additionally fanatically blinded by convictions which he adopted in his youth, and that reveals how irrational and immature he was in fact.
***** When I compared Trotsky to Hitler I did not mean that they were equal in terms of the death toll, or suffering and destruction that they brought about. To make such comparisons is rather futile and pointless anyway. What I meant is that this two had a very similar mindset and personality. They were bold, ruthless, cynical and shared similar contempt for human life, and that expressed itself in their rhetoric and action. They were also great visionaries, very passionate and charismatic figures. In my opinion the similarity is striking. They both played in the same league of totalitarian ideologues and tyrants. If Hitler is indeed so akin to Trotsky and embedded in our culture as an epitome of ultimate evil and a horrific, sinister villain, then what is the matter with Hitchens making his relentless exhortations in favour of the latter, as if he tried to vindicate him. One may get an impression that he would make a saint of Trotsky if he could. But the figures of Trotsky and the like deserve utmost condemnation rather then vindication. I find it absolutely preposterous that Hitchens decided to defend such a lost cause in the name of youthful ideals that he clung to so tenaciously.
+Tomasz Serafin Pish!
+Tomasz Serafin I don't think Hitchens was insecure at all. I believe this is the right tone for an academic discussion and actually gives very smart answers.
If you have to talk to dumb theologians there is very little to argue about.
+Tomasz Serafin you are very wrong about Trotsky. You are actually just lying on the kind of misinformation spread by Stalinists communists about Trotsky. I invite you to read his autobiography.
I agree with Service's assessment there at the end, well put.
The guy asks, "Is Trostsky a good guy or a bad guy?"
Hitchens: "He's one of the few that it is worth asking that questions."
Yes Hitchens it is a question worth asking. How about answering it?
He did answer it listen again: hint Hitchens believes in the dialectic
They spent the entire length of this video attempting to answer that question. There is clearly no black/white answer for a question like that; it would be ridiculously simplistic to say he was "good" or "bad". Try not to be a simpleton. Peter Robinson was not posing that question in hopes of a 1-word reply. He was posing it semi-rhetorically, as a way of initiating the conversation.
The best countries are more equal than others.
Was he a good guy or a bad guy? Said the american adult.
Fantastic book by the way.
This is a vital Video
1st class service
Great discourse
The section starting around 30:40 is very interesting.
Trotsky should have brought his army home and forced a leadership change a la Caesar.
Twitter. , that’ll never catch on !
Service is eyerolling on the inside in this interview so much, and for good reason.
Every time, in such debate, they forgot to mention, the condition in which these ideas were created. Europe as a whole was marked by living condition that were apocalyptic. Just the 1918 the Spanish flu and the WW1 were terrifying events, the 1929 economic crisis was brutal. It is normal that in order to change things, one would probably be going of the rail a little bit in front of such crazy phenomenon. Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky were simply men of their times, thinking of a better life for every one. Their ideas were simply as brutal as the world they were living in. As of the pertinence of their ''meditation'', well at least we can conclude that they went off the rails to a point that they ended on the wrong track.
Great discussion.
I get the feeling that Service would have indeed been at the service of the Whites if he were alive then. Makes me not really want to read his book.
Now if Hitchens were to write a biography of Trotsky . . . ;D
I admire intelligence larger than my own.
that interviewer always interrupts
Maybe it's when you get passed a certain age you realize that your romanticism of someone was blinded. Happy he left trotskyism and realized there were better people to admire such people as Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson based on ideology and actions.
sentence for trotsky - no point putting lipstick on a pig.
Very interesting video.
Excellent questions
Service alone would be better....I'm not sure I'm ready for a true believer....like hitchens..
agreed with the previous two comments
What to expect? Without even a clumsy representation, a Stalin will emerge.