Unfortunately, apart from in the raiders detachment, I don't think the codex gave them much to work with. Same as Possessed. A bit unfortunate, as both those units are sort of "stereotypically CSM" in many ways. I don't see how the Obliterators are supposed to compete with Predator tanks, which are faster, harder to kill, can shoot in melee etc.
I feel like this codex puts CSM in a really good place. Having a great battleline unit like Legionaries is huge. We don't have a Primarch (yet), but Abaddon is a good, usable centerpiece. I have the urge to put a bunch of Legionaries in Rhinos with some characters and just see what happens!
@@stevecatpatrick8056 raptors, legionaries, a bunch of sorcerers, a flying prince, and a helstalker could be a fun dread talons “doom and darkness” type list
@@fluiypj yeah that's sort of what I've been thinking as someone who doesn't own any raptors, But likes dread talon. I'm trying to put a list together that doesn't use that many of them, like two sets of 5. Not sure about the disco Lord not unless he comes down in price, But I am including plaguebearers with a poxbringer, and blue horrors with a change caster. It's a casual list but it should be real fun stacking high negative modifiers to leadership and battle shock rolls. Definitely something I plan to do in 1k-1.5k games where 10 raptors is enough. You drop five of them down next to an enemy/ shoot an enemy with he changecaster and give them battle shock, and then those three sorcerers will just rip them apart. 3 sorcs +grenades is like 7 average mortal wounds If you can get their leadership low enough to fail 3/4 of the time.
I was hoping that they changed the regular Sorcerer so that he'd be a supporting character type like the Master Executioner, but no. He'd at least be somewhat interesting in that sort of role and he'd also make Nurglings a little less of a "must have" vs melee armies.
Obliterators might be bad but consider; the only way you can purchase them is by buying the box that also gives you a Venomcrawler, and I'll be damned if that isn't the best deal I've ever seen
I've played a lot with obliterators and they are indeed quite bad. Even in a 4 man unit with MoN, next to Abaddon for the re-rolls, I've had them fail to take out a C'tan. :-/ I think that if they drop significantly in points, 2 model units can still be sort of a support-piece that can compete with a predator tank though. Deep strike might still have some use if costed ok.
@@runeh3022 agreed. ive tried 4 man oblits with MoT, MoN, MoU and re-rolls. Ive shot at a 10 man vanguard vets with SS + apoth and 10 man blob of genestealers + broodlord (with 5+ FNP) and failed to bring them to even half. There were over 20 saves needed to be taken on the mid profile each time. The cost of the oblits plus abaddon was FAR greater than their target units.
I will say: first off, great video as always, and also that the Sorcerer in Terminator armour is EXTREMELY funny in Renegade Raiders when you suddenly get Terminators with AP-4 power fists.
My only problem with Traitor Guardsmen is that with the amount of hate I have seen locally to deal with Boyz and Gaunts are easily aimed at those chaff infantry units. My friend put 2x3 Lokhust Heavies with lords and exterminators in his list to deal with Blood Angels, and now he swears by the fast moving horde mowers.
The jump lord could be quite fun in deceptors by having another character, like a Terminator lord with 10 terms or a big chosen blob with a character steal the big pile in and consolidate ability from his datasheet.
I like how a lot of the comments are people trying to add something or correct them but if they just listened the whole way they’d notice they already mentioned what they’re saying.
In Black Templars most of my list started with four Crusader squads because they were cheap, could take two power fists and a special weapon or heavy, special, and power fist with rerolls for advance and charge. If I had the same weapons package with the ability to reroll wounds that becomes an auto take even at higher points. Legionnaires become bonkers with Dark Packs.
The Chaos Lord with Jump Pack actually has the grenades keyword, which means that the raptor unit it's attached to has the grenades keyword. Just a bit of extra utility it offers
I'm camp predator for sure.... u know when u type something then read it back and realise it has a totally wrong vibe u didn't intend? this was that xD but yeah honestly think im bringing 3 in my lists (1 annihilator, 2 destructor)
Slight error for the Traitor guard is that you're not doubling up on any special weapon now, which definitely decreases the value for them offensively for whatever they offered.
The way i read it. I have the warpsmith join havocs. put them in a Rhino where the smith now buffs the Rhino and the firing deck now gets buffed with the Havoc shots. virtually making that rhino a mini land raider.
Seeing as Noise Marines and Lucius are unchanged, how do you like them? I'm considering using Noise Marines in Dread Talons with Possessed for full rerolls. By my math, with Sustain and full RR, you're getting 6 D2 dev wounds. It's a bit of a chore to get it, but Noise Marines can repeatedly force Battle shocks and Raptors can force them at -2.
You mention a few times Abaddon and a Land Raider. Wouldn't he lose his Warmaster ability while in transport and thus not be able to chose an aura? My understanding is that if you have him embarked you do not have his abilities when he gets down and this has been also ruled in a few major tournaments in Europe I think.
"If you put this unit in X detachment it's great, it's amazing!" "You need to put this unit in this detachment to rly use it, it sucks" Could you guys work on fixing your own bias? 😂 kinda contradicting
On the demon prince duo I’m so confused. Everyone I’ve asked about them says that the winged one is useless and the foot one is the only one worth taking. Then yall come out and say it’s the opposite, idk who is right and I’m so confused
shh no one tell nick that noise marines force battle-shock when they shoot, and that if he makes lucius his warlord he could take six of them in dread talons.
I think I maybe misunderstanding Warp Talons since I dont have my physical book yet and operating off YT screenshots and goonhammer. The Uppy-Downy is very cool and makes them very good at killing chaff or shooting pieces and I think they're very good but "killing Quintons entire army"? If Talons charge a combat unit with any level of durability don't they just get smeared into red paste? Again didnt have the real codex for playtest games, are you able to go into reserve before your opp swings back?
I don't understand why Oblits don't get Melta 2 on deep strike. If they have range 18", isn't 9" within half range? Or is this one of those janky GW wordings that mean it has to be closer than half range to be eligible?
Deep strike is landing more than 9" inches away from enemy units. So no melta from deep strike. Even as a CSM player with 4 oblits I'm in favour of it. I dropped down and did 36 damage to a big old tyranid monster last week, it's absurd damage.
You mentioned a few problems with the Defiler, but missed the biggest problem. It has to be the single ugliest model in the entire range, and it isn't even close. May it forever suck as long as that is the model.
0:00 Sponsors
0:53 Intro
2:46 Abaddon the Despoiler
7:16 Haarken Worldclaimer
12:11 Huron Blackheart
14:06 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor
15:20 Chaos Lord with Jump Pack
17:34 Master of Executions
19:24 Sorcerer
21:17 Sorcerer in Terminator Armor
23:15 Master of Possessions
24:40 Cypher
27:10 Warpsmith
28:40 Dark Apostle
30:34 Lord Discordant
35:01 Trashtorr No Longer.
36:53 Demon Prince on Foot
39:10 Demon Prince with Wings
42:25 Fabius Bile
44:30 Dark Commune
46:14 Occultist Firebrand
48:17 Traitor Enforcer
49:27 Legionaries
52:50 Chosen
54:26 Havocs
55:50 Noise Marines
56:30 Raptors
58:33 Warp Talons
1:02:52 Chaos Bikers
1:05:20 Terminators
1:07:13 Obliterators
1:09:34 Possessed
1:13:22 Traitor Guardsmen
1:16:28 Cultists
1:18:30 Accursed Cultists
1:19:54 Felgore Beastmen
1:22:03 Chaos Spawn
1:23:30 Chaos Rhino
1:26:50 Chaos Vindicator
1:29:25 Helbrute
1:31:00 Predator Destructor
1:32:40 Predator Annihilator
1:33:50 Venomcrawler
1:35:08 Maulerfiend
1:36:58 Defiler
1:39:02 Forgefiend
1:40:11 Chaos Land Raider
1:42:06 Lord of Skulls
1:44:03 Heldrake
1:46:27 Noctilith Crown
1:50:26 Outro
Thanks for that \m/
Cheers! But you forgot the Chaos lord on foot at 10:10! :*
A funny thing, my headphone cord started fast forwarding the video by accident during Nick's oblit rant, and I felt that that was perfectly placed.
I put that part at 1.5 speed to experience it the same way you did. Totally worth.
Unfortunately, apart from in the raiders detachment, I don't think the codex gave them much to work with. Same as Possessed. A bit unfortunate, as both those units are sort of "stereotypically CSM" in many ways. I don't see how the Obliterators are supposed to compete with Predator tanks, which are faster, harder to kill, can shoot in melee etc.
I feel like this codex puts CSM in a really good place. Having a great battleline unit like Legionaries is huge. We don't have a Primarch (yet), but Abaddon is a good, usable centerpiece. I have the urge to put a bunch of Legionaries in Rhinos with some characters and just see what happens!
Sorceror applies -1 to hit in all phases, and the lord is normally 2 damage, his ability bumps him up to D3
Yup. Also 3x sorcerors with 5 man legos in dreadtalon is a strat I'm stoked to try.
@@stevecatpatrick8056 raptors, legionaries, a bunch of sorcerers, a flying prince, and a helstalker could be a fun dread talons “doom and darkness” type list
@@fluiypj yeah that's sort of what I've been thinking as someone who doesn't own any raptors, But likes dread talon. I'm trying to put a list together that doesn't use that many of them, like two sets of 5. Not sure about the disco Lord not unless he comes down in price, But I am including plaguebearers with a poxbringer, and blue horrors with a change caster. It's a casual list but it should be real fun stacking high negative modifiers to leadership and battle shock rolls.
Definitely something I plan to do in 1k-1.5k games where 10 raptors is enough. You drop five of them down next to an enemy/ shoot an enemy with he changecaster and give them battle shock, and then those three sorcerers will just rip them apart. 3 sorcs +grenades is like 7 average mortal wounds If you can get their leadership low enough to fail 3/4 of the time.
I was hoping that they changed the regular Sorcerer so that he'd be a supporting character type like the Master Executioner, but no. He'd at least be somewhat interesting in that sort of role and he'd also make Nurglings a little less of a "must have" vs melee armies.
Reviewing the emperor's children codex will be the shortest video
Obliterators might be bad but consider; the only way you can purchase them is by buying the box that also gives you a Venomcrawler, and I'll be damned if that isn't the best deal I've ever seen
I've played a lot with obliterators and they are indeed quite bad. Even in a 4 man unit with MoN, next to Abaddon for the re-rolls, I've had them fail to take out a C'tan. :-/ I think that if they drop significantly in points, 2 model units can still be sort of a support-piece that can compete with a predator tank though. Deep strike might still have some use if costed ok.
@@runeh3022 agreed. ive tried 4 man oblits with MoT, MoN, MoU and re-rolls. Ive shot at a 10 man vanguard vets with SS + apoth and 10 man blob of genestealers + broodlord (with 5+ FNP) and failed to bring them to even half. There were over 20 saves needed to be taken on the mid profile each time. The cost of the oblits plus abaddon was FAR greater than their target units.
I will say: first off, great video as always, and also that the Sorcerer in Terminator armour is EXTREMELY funny in Renegade Raiders when you suddenly get Terminators with AP-4 power fists.
My only problem with Traitor Guardsmen is that with the amount of hate I have seen locally to deal with Boyz and Gaunts are easily aimed at those chaff infantry units. My friend put 2x3 Lokhust Heavies with lords and exterminators in his list to deal with Blood Angels, and now he swears by the fast moving horde mowers.
I heard ya’ll say the Venomcrawler only procs the extra attacks with its melee attacks, but don’t see where it’s limited to melee.
The jump lord could be quite fun in deceptors by having another character, like a Terminator lord with 10 terms or a big chosen blob with a character steal the big pile in and consolidate ability from his datasheet.
I like how a lot of the comments are people trying to add something or correct them but if they just listened the whole way they’d notice they already mentioned what they’re saying.
In Black Templars most of my list started with four Crusader squads because they were cheap, could take two power fists and a special weapon or heavy, special, and power fist with rerolls for advance and charge. If I had the same weapons package with the ability to reroll wounds that becomes an auto take even at higher points. Legionnaires become bonkers with Dark Packs.
The Chaos Lord with Jump Pack actually has the grenades keyword, which means that the raptor unit it's attached to has the grenades keyword. Just a bit of extra utility it offers
I'm camp predator for sure.... u know when u type something then read it back and realise it has a totally wrong vibe u didn't intend? this was that xD but yeah honestly think im bringing 3 in my lists (1 annihilator, 2 destructor)
Slight error for the Traitor guard is that you're not doubling up on any special weapon now, which definitely decreases the value for them offensively for whatever they offered.
Thanks guys - discovered many new for me!
lord discordant is not a vehicle tho (no vashtorr detach)
He's decent in the corsairs list imo
The way i read it. I have the warpsmith join havocs. put them in a Rhino where the smith now buffs the Rhino and the firing deck now gets buffed with the Havoc shots. virtually making that rhino a mini land raider.
for the same points you could take a landraider which is better.
Seeing as Noise Marines and Lucius are unchanged, how do you like them? I'm considering using Noise Marines in Dread Talons with Possessed for full rerolls.
By my math, with Sustain and full RR, you're getting 6 D2 dev wounds. It's a bit of a chore to get it, but Noise Marines can repeatedly force Battle shocks and Raptors can force them at -2.
I am not sure, but noise marines can leave rhino and enter building. They got +2 AP and reroll hit and wound in renegade raiders.
The Silent King is effectively leadership 5+, given his aura of +1 leadership.
I don't get why they couldn't make the Chaos spawn have a unit-size of 2, 4 or 6...
Might be good to see how they rank in different Legions
You mention a few times Abaddon and a Land Raider. Wouldn't he lose his Warmaster ability while in transport and thus not be able to chose an aura? My understanding is that if you have him embarked you do not have his abilities when he gets down and this has been also ruled in a few major tournaments in Europe I think.
I love what you guys have to say but I can’t hear it. Take a moment and fix your audio. I see you invested in chairs…..
I really wish they made a 1 minute video going over the EC index
You guys should have included Plague, Rubrics, and Zerkers.
what would you take for an all round 1000pts CSM list?
Huron in the Alpha legion. have all those infiltrate units start up the board. then pull them back and flank. CHAOS. haha
Love the new visuals! Huge improvement ❤️
"If you put this unit in X detachment it's great, it's amazing!"
"You need to put this unit in this detachment to rly use it, it sucks"
Could you guys work on fixing your own bias? 😂 kinda contradicting
Liking the video for the characters!
On the demon prince duo I’m so confused. Everyone I’ve asked about them says that the winged one is useless and the foot one is the only one worth taking. Then yall come out and say it’s the opposite, idk who is right and I’m so confused
shh no one tell nick that noise marines force battle-shock when they shoot, and that if he makes lucius his warlord he could take six of them in dread talons.
well done lads
You can only put marks on units in ONE of the detachments ? Wow the other detachments don’t even chaos bro.
Time stamps finally yes!
I think I maybe misunderstanding Warp Talons since I dont have my physical book yet and operating off YT screenshots and goonhammer. The Uppy-Downy is very cool and makes them very good at killing chaff or shooting pieces and I think they're very good but "killing Quintons entire army"? If Talons charge a combat unit with any level of durability don't they just get smeared into red paste? Again didnt have the real codex for playtest games, are you able to go into reserve before your opp swings back?
Yeah, a bit of hyperbole. But they are crazy!
@@ArtofWar40k Thanks for replying btw! Don't disagree, seem very good, and appreciate the clarification.
Foot Prince doesnt give stealth anymore. Only BoC
Did not mention Overwatch as a way to kill Warp Talons, am I missing something?
What model is on the Thumbnail???
Great video Mr Nick and Q Money!!
Please bookmarks!
If Abaddon is 270 instead of 310, does he go up to S tier?
HE IS 295
I don't understand why Oblits don't get Melta 2 on deep strike. If they have range 18", isn't 9" within half range? Or is this one of those janky GW wordings that mean it has to be closer than half range to be eligible?
You have to land 9.0001" away so you're not within 9", half range for melta.
@@brianricks7309 ah ok thank you...I really hate this game sometimes 😆
You need a 9” inch charge because you’re less than 10 inches away but greater than 9 inches away. Id kill for 8” inch deep strike charge
You can still deep strike melta with Obliterators. It's 9", which is exactly your deep strike distance.
Nope it doesn't work
Deep strike is landing more than 9" inches away from enemy units. So no melta from deep strike.
Even as a CSM player with 4 oblits I'm in favour of it. I dropped down and did 36 damage to a big old tyranid monster last week, it's absurd damage.
Fart of war
Feels like it sometimes out on those tourney table trenches…
I don't like moaning but the audio quality is a real put off, it's pretty dreadful.
You mentioned a few problems with the Defiler, but missed the biggest problem. It has to be the single ugliest model in the entire range, and it isn't even close. May it forever suck as long as that is the model.
False
Have you see the spawn lol as no one uses the actual model and is normally proxied lol
It also has some of the coolest proxies out there so use those.
The only thing that's ugly about it is its Scourge, and you're probably not using it anyway.