One of the tricks we used to use was the double-roll solder. We torqued the nut to the proper torque with the solder between the bearing and the collar, then measure the thickness of the solder upon removal and there was our shim thickness. Old school! the cost of the solder and the shim were much less than even the crush collar.
First and only rear I ever took apart(recently) I used a crush sleeve eliminator kit. It takes another set up step but I got peace of mind getting that nut tightened without drama.
I did a bunch of Dodge Dakota ring n pinions, when I worked at the dealership. Pinion bearing preload is technically set with no ring gear in place. Good information Uncle Tony
Right after pinion depth is established. I like new bearings & gears in the same housing, because i dont need a dial indicator or carrier block. Just calipers & a note pad
It usually comes lose after someone pulls the yoke off to replace the pinion seal, guys would mark the nut’s relationship to the pinion (with a sharp ding from a chisel) into the nut and pinion. Replace the seal, reassemble with loc-tite back to the mark made, then, tickle it another 1/8th of a turn (wear take up) 🤔😉
I've done that a couple of times, although tightening less than an additional 1/8 of a turn, and it worked out okay but I worried about it, until I forgot about it.
The old timer who taught me said to mark pinion nut, usually with a straight line across the nut. That way you can see if the nut has backed off. It was a valuable addition.
Nailed it tony. I always buy extra crush sleeves and throw them in my toolbox. If the nut comes off, it gets a new sleeve, preload gets set up with an inch pound wrench and the nut gets threadlocker.
Every Uncle Tony's video I learn something new! Thank you so much for all your knowledge that you are putting out for us viewers from all around the world!!!
If I have to change a pinion seal I just marked the pinion and the nut and when I assemble back together after replacing the seal I line the two marks back up and go just a little bit tighter and it always seem to work for me. Never had any issues. It might not be the right way by the book but it works for me. Now if I was rebuilding a rear end and changing the ring and pinion then I would change the crush collar and do it by the book. The people I see that have problems are the ones that don't know better and use an impact and just send it.
Yessss! Great video. I hate those damn things. Been using homemade machined tubes and shims on AMC 20s, all Dana, and even Unimog axles for 25 years. You just learned me a new thing. Someone makes kits. Thanks Uncle Tony!
Been there, done that. The crush collar in my Chrystler 8.25 went bad. Ended up going with a crush collar elimination kit that allowed for the proper use of shims.
I bought a new 92 Dakota 318 4x4 .My only new vehicle in this life. I kept it for 5 years and 50K miles and sold it to an old buddy. A week later the pinion nut backed off but luckily he parked it immediatley and I had triple A haul it to my shop. It did not hurt anything having about 11/2 threads still holding on. I checked the gear pattern and slop and reassembled with red loctite on the nut and drilled it and the pinion shaft for a cotter pin. I rented a big 250 lb torque wrench and tightened to spec. That could have killed my old lady and baby boy,I was so pissed off! He drove it another 150k with no issues.
You are 100% right! I've always hated that crush sleeve. I only had one fail of many but it sucks to kill someone's diff. over a cheap part. My boss ( mentor) explained the same issue with factory vs. impact. On a full rebuild we would use a giant breaker bar with the diff. either removed or turned to get full swing. We would try to tighten using even pressure without the dunga dunga gun.
same here man on me when i was 18 on my 56 chev.....he done it with breaker bar and pipe and explained....I had no clue then....it takes ALOT to crush a new one I learned......miss them ol timers...and Tony is pretty slick himself on things.
@@chrishensley6745 I agree the old school types (oops I'm there myself) have a lot of knowledge that is very valuable. See Nick's Garage! I wish that the newer generation of mechanics better understand the exact methods rather than strongly using computer only methodology.
Never re-use the lock nut or the crush sleeve. In 45 years as a professional tech I have never ever had a pinion nut come loose. Use a dial indicating torque wrench to measure rotating torque (not for the pinion nut torque) and follow closely the specs for used and new bearings.
Mercedes-Benz used a notched pinion nut that would lock into place once the 'crush washer' was torqued and collapsed. Now I know what they were avoiding, thanks Tony.
I had a hard time finding a sleeve many years ago for a 489 pumpkin. Drove a 55 mile round trip to get one. 70 challenger 383 2x4 for the new 4.56 gears. Worth the trouble.
No kidding! My turbo 318 Duster "relaxed" the crush sleeve in my 3.23 489 gearset. It totally wiped out both the ring and pinion, metal in all the bearings. I really thought we put crush sleeve eliminator in it(BTW Yukon has the best one for a 489 case Mopar) but we must not have, which was a big mistake. Losing the 1968 original 3.23 gearset has been rough.
@@DanEBoyd I could if I could find them. They were a beautiful set I found fairly local. They were nearly NOS quality. I will NEVER leave a crush sleeve in any 489 I build. Good thing my 741 case out of my 67 GTX doesn't have a crush sleeve, otherwise that would have been wrecked the way I drive it.
What a coincidence you made this video, a few days ago I had to replace the pinion seal on my 88 f150 8.8 ford rear. I bought a new pinion seal and a new crush sleeve because I knew it was a one time use item. When I removed the driveshaft I planned on counting threads to save time re tensioning the pinion flange. It was so loose it had lots of play inward and outward, I’m shocked my rear isn’t smoked. I’ve had issues over the years with ford and Dana rears. Never had or seen issue with AAM axles.
Thanks Uncle Tony! Brings back my first car memories, a Mustang. It had noisy bad pinion bearing. I followed shop manual including buying new crush spacer. Never knew why they used throw away spacer, but your production explanation says it all. Dad and I had drive yoke in vise and we torque wrenched over 200 ft lbs to start crush. Had to ask friendly trans shop for some yellow gear ink, so I could set ring gear pattern. Must have learned something because I remember ! 😊
Just put a sure-grip 8.25 Chrysler in my XJ Cherokee. Got the noise and you just figured it out for me. Thank you for saving me the time trying to figure it out. I had to change the Yoke because the one on it was messed up. Thought I torqued it and used the right amount of red thread lock but I guess not. 😢
Learned something new again today …Have cars since my 1951 Dodge Cornet 4 door tank in 1959 …AND HAVE NEVER BEEN INTO A DIFFERENTIAL …and it was just a couple of years ago that I had somebody do something for my car … All work on a car done by me since 1959 when I bought the 51 Dodge with a tree growing thru the engine compartment ..the dealer said I could have the car for 50 bucks if I could get it started …I did!!!!!!! Never saw this part before !!!
Interesting video Tony. Finally got a car to play with. 64 Galaxie. Never knew about the crush collar. Thanks. Going through your videos to get a better understanding.
Thanks for clarification on that, I have changed them but always just factory change, most people just put in a second hand unit easier 😅 ,thanks for sharing ,all the best to yous and your loved ones
Oh do I know that sound! Bought a used '06 Jeep TJ that had been regeared. Well I bought it two days before a 1000 Mike round-trip road trip. It was a pain & multiple trips to the dealership to ensure them it was from the rear diff & took me recording the studio & giving them the exact conditions. I thought the rear diff wasn't shimmed correctly, but likely it was them reusing the rear crush collar. Good to know.!
Had a friend who'd been a dealership mechanic show me how to put a crush sleeve over a round mandrel and smack it evenly around it's circumference to stretch the crush sleeve back out enough to be able to take a preload again. It's not the RIGHT way, but if there's no part available it's A way to get one back on the road, cheap.
thanks for the knowledge Uncle Tony! i didn't even know about this particular problem but i do now. I'm a fan of driving old cars so ill be on the lookout for "the noise"
I've done many differentials. Stock, and drag racing. Never had one come off. Always used a 4-foot pipe wrench on the yoke and a 4-foot breaker bar to crush the collar. Use a little blue loctite, sneak up on it while checking the preload with an inch pound torque wrench, run it with no load when you're finished for 20 minutes. Take it for a ride, bring it back and let cool overnight. It's ready for the track.
Crush sleeves are one of the parts I always regret walking into an auto parts store and asking for. Might as well be asking for CB antenna tuning fluid.
Back when I was young I swapped out a carrier in a GM truck 12 bolt and I could not get that new coller to crush with the tools I had for the life of me so I dug the old one outa the dirt wiped it off and tossed it back in and everyone lived happily ever after! lol. It's amazing what you can get away with when you don't know better...!
one bit me 2 months ago. had to drive 8 hours away to pick up a new diff. There are no crush collars available for the 3.91 Chrysler rear end. They don't even have a rebuild kit for the bearings or gears. The local dealers have to source differentials from local salvage/junk yards.
At one time I used to build them by feel, back lash pre load all of it, but I was building Dana 80’s. Its been so long since I’ve built one I’d have to drag out the gages and dial indicators now.
Tony I really Like you and your show, and you are probably close to my age at 63 please look in the Background of this fine video. I cannot help but do the math of prediction of the future including Murphie's law that a empty or not high Presher cylinder without a cap even setting upright on a table would not be influenced at any time to leave its perch. It would be a sad day to recollect in a future fine video to explain a dent in one of your fine machines or worse yet.............. Keep up the good work.
I never heard that had to be replaced when the nut was loosened for any reason. wow great knowledge to have now, thanks! Thank the car lord below that Rock Auto sells them for my rear end. They call it crush sleeve.
Get a solid spacer. Used solid spacers in my front D44 reverse high pinyon, and one in my Strange/Ford 9” rear. Buy duplicate bearings for everything, one set make “set up” bearings by honing to slip fit, and go with a solid spacer with assorted shims. The only way to set up gears
What I always loved is this. Once torqued, if you loosen the nut you're supposed to replace the crush sleeve. But you are supposed to measure bearing preload without the seal in place since it causes drag and gives a false reading. So, you crush the sleeve, find preload, but somehow have to install the seal without taking the nut off? Hmmm....
This is why when I replaced my leaking pinion seal, I just removed the nut and yoke, installed the new seal then installed the yoke and nut, tightened the nut just enough to remove any perceptible bearing play and turned with no binding. Rear was fine, no noise.
I am a fan of the shim I've had a crush washer Not crush down and it Stripped out the nut Lucky I was able to repair the threads Use a shim to install proper Preload.
Wow, that's huge. On the manufacturer diffs I worked on had rather small ones. And luckily I never had an issue. Luckily they rarely needed rebuilding or replacements.
While you were doing this video I was thinking that you could take the old crush collar, measure it precisely with a set of calipers or a micrometer, then duplicate that length in a fabricated spacer on the lathe, then re-install with a few ugga duggas on the impact. No need to mess around with pre-load then, because it was already set the last time you put it together, and that old crush collar is the exact right length to get it there.
The crush collar may try to spring back to its original length once the pinion nut is removed. If you measure that your machines part could be 1-2 thousands too long. The rotational torque required to turn the reassembled pinion assembly will determine if the preload is where it should be. So you could machine off a micron at a time until you get the right preload torque.
I use a 1/4” drive beam type torque wrench to check pinion bearing preload. It’s 8 to 14 in lbs on a Ford 8.8. I always went for 11in lbs of drag. It’s best to use a 3/4” drive ratchet to tighten that pinion nut to set the preload. A 1/2” drive breaker bar is too springy to feel small incremental movements of the pinion nut to set that preload. Use red Locktite always on that pinion nut.
never had one come loose and ive been driving a loooong time we use lead /solder method putting them together its just the way my uncle showed me and i figured it was how everyone put them together
Very informative info, i guess i may know why i lost half the teeth on my ring gear, after building my first truck i built. due to showing a buddy the power it had. after stepping on the gas in four wheel drive to smoke the tires, till it started banging, thought i blew a universal joint. Nope worse than that i learned. thinking i was cool . Bad idea at the time. Young an dumb. Good to know. Lesson learned. The hard way.. still paying for it seems it was a square box chevy. Wish i had it today, it been worth something today. . Lesson learnd.😢
WOW. I have really been lucky. I had three Dodges go 100,000+ miles without that problem and now my 2005 Jeep Liberty has 275,000 miles, no whine as yet.
Iv personally reused my crush collar by putting it over a solid metal bar or even the pinion it’s self and slowly massage it with a small hammer to stretch it out a few millimeters. Works absolutely fine 👌🏽
I worked in a Calif farming town in a mom pop parts store. The town was flooded with Astro vans used for farm labor transport. We were on the main entrance to town and the vans would back off the gas right in front of our store. I swear, every rear end howled as they came into town. We stocked all the bearings, seals, crush, gaskets needed to fix these things. We only ever sold the pinion seal. Once, while delivering parts, I saw the shop owner take an air gun and rattle tattle tighten down the pinion nut as far as it would go..
It would be difficult with the one shown but in a pinch you can place the sleeve over a bar or the pinion itself, if you support it with soft wood, and hammer around on the high point of the sleeve diameter. This expands the sleeve. The preload for all GM axles I worked on was 15 inch pounds on used bearings and 30 inch pounds on new. This is easier with the carrier removed.
Wow! I bet this is my issue. I thought it to be something out of balance in either the engine or tranny. 1962 F-100 w/ a 9". I'll be changing to a later year model used 9" rearend shortly. I'll know what is then for sure....dang it, unless it has the same problem. Great video!
The preload is required to reduce pinion gear head movement/deflection in the bearing radial direction as torque increases. If the gear moves too far you get noise issues or destroyed gear teeth. It takes force to press the pinion tail bearing cone onto the stem. It also takes force to drive the pinion flange onto the splines on the stem (majority of new pinion stem splines have a slight helix which creates an interference fit). When the pinion flange nut is tightened it generates force to drive the tail bearing cone and pinion flange splines farther onto the shaft. It is a very high amount of force. The crush spacer equalizes the force generated by the pinion nut. In the case the crush isn’t in place the high force generated by the nut will continue to drive the bearing cone and flange onto the pinion stem after you stop rotating the nut (due to creep). If you to assemble a pinion without a crush spacer and get lucky enough to end up with good initial preload/rolling torque you’ll end up frying the bearings later. As soon as you heavily load the gear set in the drive direction and push the pinion hard into the head bearing the tail bearing loses axial preload and the force generated by the pinion nut pushes the tail bearing cone and pinion flange further onto the stem. When torque is reduces the bearings are going fry themselves. If your pinion splines do not have a helix/interference fit (old reused worn pinion flange) the pinion flange has slight rotation relative the pinion stem which will back the nut off.
When crushing these crush sleeves the way I do it on every diff is turn the pinion with a in pound torque wrench and tighten the nut until you have 20in lbs of rolling resistance or 30 for new bearings
Fords have a smaller crush sleeve or bushing! What I do in a race application is crunch the sleeve down to normal install specs ….then remove it and measure the thickness….then I go to my abundance of shims and get something close …install the selected shims and torque to spec. Then I’ll check for looseness and break away torque…if it’s not right I’ll add if subtract till I get the desired specs….haven’t ever had an issue..
Thanks Tony, been working with cars for forty years plus and never reused a crush collar before. I may try that shim idea next time I am that deep again. Seems like an excellent procedure and I wonder sometimes how I didn’t hear that from someone when doing jobs like replacing pinion gears after blown and lunched rear ends over the years. I personally would not agree to go with the majority of utubers out there but yes that would be the best answer with a strong disclaimer of any true accuracy. I always find the book and exact measurements, requirements and settings for the device or for the machine. If you strike out finding the book on what you are working on, like if you have to know now, then yes probably your best choice for utubers would be to go with the majority of the ones claiming they know that match others. I am busy and every once in awhile when I know I have a problem on a machine I may watch a utube on it. More than I want to admit I was fooled by some one claiming Jesus level expertise on this exact make and model only to find out in reality they were completely wrong. I can’t even remember the times. The last one I clearly remember was when this guy on a video swore you could just unstrap a gas tank if it is this exact make and model and all the factory connections and gas line would not have to be touched. He swore his life this was correct betting his pride and reputation on it. He had twenty five college degrees for working on cars. I watch this crap thinking: OK I got it, going to do that. Nothing was long enough to do that. Supposedly same exact machine make and model that he was working on. So a guy is fumbling around jacking the tank back up and re-strapping it back up. I knew I had listened to a person who mistook what he had stating they were all that way. So unwitting, blooming idiot or evil, no don’t do that, don’t ever do that or think of trying that on this exact make and model machine at stock height, the gas line and wires are not long enough to reach, beware idiots out there are wrong. My machine was pristine, never been touched in that area by hands outside the factory. The fuel pump failed the kind inside the tank. His video was a perfect way to set a guy up to rip off or break the gas line and wiring. In his video he is stating, yeh, the wires won’t look like they are going to be long enough to reach the ground but trust me and God that we know they will reach. So always beware, this bad advice caused me to lose a little time. I took a close look and thought, yeh right, there is no way this gas line or wiring are long enough to reach the ground but I just saw it done and the guy said it will look like they are not long enough. I decide I will proceed but move slow, just in case. What saved me was going slow and watching while keeping it on the jack. When it was about in inch from being on the ground it was apparent that anything lower would cause damage. You are screwed, without the tank straps connected and it just balancing on the floor Jack, you have no choice but to carefully jack it back up to reconnect the straps so you can disconnect it where it was at. That is awkward, slow and painful to do where it is at. You were trying to save time doing it this utube guys way, (idiot, I don’t know). In the end it didn’t save anything, it cost me time. Why did I listen to this guy, well, right, got suckered. Always understand to watch and listen and trust your own understanding and feelings on something. Hard to know how accurate the information is. More often than not it is accurate or fairly accurate, that is why you can get burned and sometimes real well, when it is not accurate.
Ive re used them but measured them. If you change bearings or gears or both, sometimes if you kow the measurement you can crush further. Done the shim many times went parts just are not available. Mostly old stuff we are trying to save. I have an old craftsman top box and a whole drawer with nothing but shims!
I drive a 2004 astro cargo van. it was running cold. I took it to a local shop to get the thermostat replaced and they did. two days later, what you described, howling on accel and quiet on coast I knew what it was and thought, now how, aside from bending rust bucket's frame on a lift could they have thrown my drive shaft angle all to whack?" And why would they have lifted it to swap out the thermostat?? - Well, knowing full well this shops pocket response to "you broke it" only results in a new appointment and further charges, I drove around like that for a while. I took it to a quick lube place where I get her oil changed and asked them to refill the diff. I heard someone exclaim "The seal is bent!" and the brought me a picture on a phone of my dented diff pumpkin and asked if I had ran over anything. They also said any gear oil would just run out and I was better off with the sludge. So crap, now I need a reman diff at least. prolly wheel bearings and maybe axles too. 🤦♂
I would mark the nut and change seals putting the nut back to original and never had a problem. Anything deeper got a new crush but making it crush often took way more torque than it should. Especially on Ford 8.8 rears.
I have done many diffs. And never had a problem with the sleeve. I have seen people stuff around with solid spacers and shims etc and usually have grief. Occasionally you may have to use a new sleeve because the old one is squashed too far or use say a 015" shim. This on GM 10 bolts both US and Aussie, B/W diffs, 9" lumps, Mazda, Toyota and Big Austin diffs. Pinion nuts do NOT back off, either use the crimp or simply loctite and make certain the bearings are all good and washers flat. And getting pinion height correct the biggest pain. The ones with threaded adjusters seldom ever cause and issue Too many diffs especially with side shims will get decidedly wonky and even after reshimming will generally 'talk'
I have a sound coming for my differential and it sounds like that but on the acceleration side. Local Chevy mechanic couldn't figure it out after 2 months. No witness marks or anything. They lied. New Dana rear end. Z71 posi 3 years ago
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
One of the tricks we used to use was the double-roll solder. We torqued the nut to the proper torque with the solder between the bearing and the collar, then measure the thickness of the solder upon removal and there was our shim thickness. Old school! the cost of the solder and the shim were much less than even the crush collar.
Damn, dude, that's smart. I'm gonna use that. Thanks 😁
Old School Rules 😎
You are completely full of shit!
One thing, DO NOT USE ACID CORE SOLDER!
@@mdcuddy3286
Yep, don't wanna have a bad pinion trip. :3
First and only rear I ever took apart(recently) I used a crush sleeve eliminator kit. It takes another set up step but I got peace of mind getting that nut tightened without drama.
I did a bunch of Dodge Dakota ring n pinions, when I worked at the dealership.
Pinion bearing preload is technically set with no ring gear in place.
Good information Uncle Tony
Right after pinion depth is established. I like new bearings & gears in the same housing, because i dont need a dial indicator or carrier block. Just calipers & a note pad
It usually comes lose after someone pulls the yoke off to replace the pinion seal, guys would mark the nut’s relationship to the pinion (with a sharp ding from a chisel) into the nut and pinion. Replace the seal, reassemble with loc-tite back to the mark made, then, tickle it another 1/8th of a turn (wear take up) 🤔😉
Yep!...way I always seen and done...even at Dealership back years ago and nowandays.
I've done that a couple of times, although tightening less than an additional 1/8 of a turn, and it worked out okay but I worried about it, until I forgot about it.
Exactly how I’ve always done my fords. Figure, by the time and age of the vehicle, that 1/8 turn is helping the preload.
The old timer who taught me said to mark pinion nut, usually with a straight line across the nut. That way you can see if the nut has backed off. It was a valuable addition.
Nailed it tony. I always buy extra crush sleeves and throw them in my toolbox. If the nut comes off, it gets a new sleeve, preload gets set up with an inch pound wrench and the nut gets threadlocker.
Every Uncle Tony's video I learn something new! Thank you so much for all your knowledge that you are putting out for us viewers from all around the world!!!
They do tend to spring back a significant amount when you back the pinion nut off. Never had a problem reusing them on pinion seal jobs.
If I have to change a pinion seal I just marked the pinion and the nut and when I assemble back together after replacing the seal I line the two marks back up and go just a little bit tighter and it always seem to work for me. Never had any issues. It might not be the right way by the book but it works for me. Now if I was rebuilding a rear end and changing the ring and pinion then I would change the crush collar and do it by the book. The people I see that have problems are the ones that don't know better and use an impact and just send it.
i use a sharp chisel to stamp a perfect mark and change the seal then use red thread locker on the nut ive never had an issue
“One last thing…” Uncle Tony is our own Columbo. Stay safe man
I learn more from this guy....... And what a great teacher he is!
Yessss! Great video. I hate those damn things. Been using homemade machined tubes and shims on AMC 20s, all Dana, and even Unimog axles for 25 years. You just learned me a new thing. Someone makes kits. Thanks Uncle Tony!
Been there, done that. The crush collar in my Chrystler 8.25 went bad. Ended up going with a crush collar elimination kit that allowed for the proper use of shims.
you crushed that video
I bought a new 92 Dakota 318 4x4 .My only new vehicle in this life. I kept it for 5 years and 50K miles and sold it to an old buddy. A week later the pinion nut backed off but luckily he parked it immediatley and I had triple A haul it to my shop. It did not hurt anything having about 11/2 threads still holding on. I checked the gear pattern and slop and reassembled with red loctite on the nut and drilled it and the pinion shaft for a cotter pin. I rented a big 250 lb torque wrench and tightened to spec. That could have killed my old lady and baby boy,I was so pissed off! He drove it another 150k with no issues.
742 Mopar 8-3/4 doesn't use a crush collar. One of the reasons I like it.
What vehicles/years did that come in?
I've been using the solid pinion spacers and shims from ratech for years. It's the best $25 you can buy when you are doing a rear end.
You are 100% right! I've always hated that crush sleeve. I only had one fail of many but it sucks to kill someone's diff. over a cheap part. My boss ( mentor) explained the same issue with factory vs. impact. On a full rebuild we would use a giant breaker bar with the diff. either removed or turned to get full swing. We would try to tighten using even pressure without the dunga dunga gun.
same here man on me when i was 18 on my 56 chev.....he done it with breaker bar and pipe and explained....I had no clue then....it takes ALOT to crush a new one I learned......miss them ol timers...and Tony is pretty slick himself on things.
@@chrishensley6745 I agree the old school types (oops I'm there myself) have a lot of knowledge that is very valuable. See Nick's Garage!
I wish that the newer generation of mechanics better understand the exact methods rather than strongly using computer only methodology.
Never re-use the lock nut or the crush sleeve. In 45 years as a professional tech I have never ever had a pinion nut come loose. Use a dial indicating torque wrench to measure rotating torque (not for the pinion nut torque) and follow closely the specs for used and new bearings.
the inch pound dial wrench is a jewel for differential work!!!
@@MrChevelle83 Thanks, I neglected to mention inch pound.
Mercedes-Benz used a notched pinion nut that would lock into place once the 'crush washer' was torqued and collapsed. Now I know what they were avoiding, thanks Tony.
I had a hard time finding a sleeve many years ago for a 489 pumpkin. Drove a 55 mile round trip to get one. 70 challenger 383 2x4 for the new 4.56 gears. Worth the trouble.
No kidding! My turbo 318 Duster "relaxed" the crush sleeve in my 3.23 489 gearset. It totally wiped out both the ring and pinion, metal in all the bearings. I really thought we put crush sleeve eliminator in it(BTW Yukon has the best one for a 489 case Mopar) but we must not have, which was a big mistake. Losing the 1968 original 3.23 gearset has been rough.
Can't you just get the 3.23 gears out of another 1968 axle assembly?
@@DanEBoyd I could if I could find them. They were a beautiful set I found fairly local. They were nearly NOS quality. I will NEVER leave a crush sleeve in any 489 I build. Good thing my 741 case out of my 67 GTX doesn't have a crush sleeve, otherwise that would have been wrecked the way I drive it.
Explained in the simplest of ways, Thanks UT
What a coincidence you made this video, a few days ago I had to replace the pinion seal on my 88 f150 8.8 ford rear. I bought a new pinion seal and a new crush sleeve because I knew it was a one time use item. When I removed the driveshaft I planned on counting threads to save time re tensioning the pinion flange. It was so loose it had lots of play inward and outward, I’m shocked my rear isn’t smoked. I’ve had issues over the years with ford and Dana rears. Never had or seen issue with AAM axles.
Very good information here. Any chance you would like to tackle gear patterns and bluing?
Tony. There really should be a subscription to this channel. Thank you for your service, sir.
What a guy. You're a great teacher! Thank you.
Thanks Uncle Tony! Brings back my first car memories, a Mustang. It had noisy bad pinion bearing. I followed shop manual including buying new crush spacer. Never knew why they used throw away spacer, but your production explanation says it all. Dad and I had drive yoke in vise and we torque wrenched over 200 ft lbs to start crush. Had to ask friendly trans shop for some yellow gear ink, so I could set ring gear pattern. Must have learned something because I remember ! 😊
I KNOW WHATS WRONG WITH IT IT'S A DODGE
Thanks man, i had no idea them things were hiding in there. Always good to know a new sound
As always, thanks so much for the info. Very educational!
Just put a sure-grip 8.25 Chrysler in my XJ Cherokee. Got the noise and you just figured it out for me. Thank you for saving me the time trying to figure it out. I had to change the Yoke because the one on it was messed up. Thought I torqued it and used the right amount of red thread lock but I guess not. 😢
Learned something new again today …Have cars since my 1951 Dodge Cornet 4 door tank in 1959 …AND HAVE NEVER BEEN INTO A DIFFERENTIAL …and it was just a couple of years ago that I had somebody do something for my car …
All work on a car done by me since 1959 when I bought the 51 Dodge with a tree growing thru the engine compartment ..the dealer said I could have the car for 50 bucks if I could get it started …I did!!!!!!!
Never saw this part before !!!
Thanks for the education, it's always a good day when I learn something new...
Listen to your Uncle Tony boys and girls....100 percent gold.
I never knew these existed. And now one of them can wreck my day. This is going to give me hives.
Interesting video Tony. Finally got a car to play with. 64 Galaxie. Never knew about the crush collar. Thanks. Going through your videos to get a better understanding.
I always get something out of your videos Tony. Thanks.
Thanks for clarification on that, I have changed them but always just factory change, most people just put in a second hand unit easier 😅 ,thanks for sharing ,all the best to yous and your loved ones
Oh do I know that sound! Bought a used '06 Jeep TJ that had been regeared. Well I bought it two days before a 1000 Mike round-trip road trip. It was a pain & multiple trips to the dealership to ensure them it was from the rear diff & took me recording the studio & giving them the exact conditions. I thought the rear diff wasn't shimmed correctly, but likely it was them reusing the rear crush collar. Good to know.!
Another great why and how lesson, 10 out of 10
Very nice explanation on what's happening to make the drive and coast noise from a differential. Thanks!
The 'Yoke" on you Uncle Tony, & that's you're "PINION" !😂
I always get something from your video's Tony. Thanks.
Great video. Always learn something new every time I see your videos.
International Harvester never used those.
You are correct Tony, those things are annoying.
I've wondered about how that works. Excellent explanation Tony
Had a friend who'd been a dealership mechanic show me how to put a crush sleeve over a round mandrel and smack it evenly around it's circumference to stretch the crush sleeve back out enough to be able to take a preload again.
It's not the RIGHT way, but if there's no part available it's A way to get one back on the road, cheap.
Truth. Been there, heard that. Followed shortly thereafter by the driveshaft flopping round, falling out, and getting run over by the rear wheels. 😕
thanks for the knowledge Uncle Tony! i didn't even know about this particular problem but i do now. I'm a fan of driving old cars so ill be on the lookout for "the noise"
Uncle Tony makes shit I know nothing about sound interesting. 👍
I've done many differentials. Stock, and drag racing. Never had one come off. Always used a 4-foot pipe wrench on the yoke and a 4-foot breaker bar to crush the collar. Use a little blue loctite, sneak up on it while checking the preload with an inch pound torque wrench, run it with no load when you're finished for 20 minutes. Take it for a ride, bring it back and let cool overnight. It's ready for the track.
I did that on My diffrential. No kits available got spacer machined and got lucky that i was able to use old shim and perfecto
Very good info. Thank you.
Doin carrier bearings in my 12 bolt corp.
Great info and timely. Top notch!
Crush sleeves are one of the parts I always regret walking into an auto parts store and asking for. Might as well be asking for CB antenna tuning fluid.
Windshield wiper arm brake caliper pads.
Back when I was young I swapped out a carrier in a GM truck 12 bolt and I could not get that new coller to crush with the tools I had for the life of me so I dug the old one outa the dirt wiped it off and tossed it back in and everyone lived happily ever after! lol. It's amazing what you can get away with when you don't know better...!
Best explanation on the internet
I didn't know about all off that that was great ever time I watch I get something out of it bees in my head.
one bit me 2 months ago. had to drive 8 hours away to pick up a new diff. There are no crush collars available for the 3.91 Chrysler rear end. They don't even have a rebuild kit for the bearings or gears. The local dealers have to source differentials from local salvage/junk yards.
At one time I used to build them by feel, back lash pre load all of it, but I was building Dana 80’s. Its been so long since I’ve built one I’d have to drag out the gages and dial indicators now.
Tony I really Like you and your show, and you are probably close to my age at 63 please look in the Background of this fine video. I cannot help but do the math of prediction of the future including Murphie's law that a empty or not high Presher cylinder without a cap even setting upright on a table would not be influenced at any time to leave its perch. It would be a sad day to recollect in a future fine video to explain a dent in one of your fine machines or worse yet.............. Keep up the good work.
I never heard that had to be replaced when the nut was loosened for any reason. wow great knowledge to have now, thanks! Thank the car lord below that Rock Auto sells them for my rear end. They call it crush sleeve.
This is excellent Tony, thank you.
Get a solid spacer. Used solid spacers in my front D44 reverse high pinyon, and one in my Strange/Ford 9” rear. Buy duplicate bearings for everything, one set make “set up” bearings by honing to slip fit, and go with a solid spacer with assorted shims. The only way to set up gears
What I always loved is this. Once torqued, if you loosen the nut you're supposed to replace the crush sleeve. But you are supposed to measure bearing preload without the seal in place since it causes drag and gives a false reading. So, you crush the sleeve, find preload, but somehow have to install the seal without taking the nut off? Hmmm....
This is why when I replaced my leaking pinion seal, I just removed the nut and yoke, installed the new seal then installed the yoke and nut, tightened the nut just enough to remove any perceptible bearing play and turned with no binding. Rear was fine, no noise.
I am a fan of the shim I've had a crush washer Not crush down and it Stripped out the nut Lucky I was able to repair the threads Use a shim to install proper Preload.
Wow, that's huge. On the manufacturer diffs I worked on had rather small ones. And luckily I never had an issue. Luckily they rarely needed rebuilding or replacements.
Very entertaining and fun to watch. Thanks for posting this.
While you were doing this video I was thinking that you could take the old crush collar, measure it precisely with a set of calipers or a micrometer, then duplicate that length in a fabricated spacer on the lathe, then re-install with a few ugga duggas on the impact. No need to mess around with pre-load then, because it was already set the last time you put it together, and that old crush collar is the exact right length to get it there.
The crush collar may try to spring back to its original length once the pinion nut is removed. If you measure that your machines part could be 1-2 thousands too long. The rotational torque required to turn the reassembled pinion assembly will determine if the preload is where it should be. So you could machine off a micron at a time until you get the right preload torque.
I use a 1/4” drive beam type torque wrench to check pinion bearing preload. It’s 8 to 14 in lbs on a Ford 8.8. I always went for 11in lbs of drag. It’s best to use a 3/4” drive ratchet to tighten that pinion nut to set the preload. A 1/2” drive breaker bar is too springy to feel small incremental movements of the pinion nut to set that preload. Use red Locktite always on that pinion nut.
never had one come loose and ive been driving a loooong time we use lead /solder method putting them together its just the way my uncle showed me and i figured it was how everyone put them together
Just had a pinion nut come loose after this video came out. Thank you.
Very informative info, i guess i may know why i lost half the teeth on my ring gear, after building my first truck i built. due to showing a buddy the power it had. after stepping on the gas in four wheel drive to smoke the tires, till it started banging, thought i blew a universal joint. Nope worse than that i learned. thinking i was cool . Bad idea at the time. Young an dumb. Good to know. Lesson learned. The hard way.. still paying for it seems it was a square box chevy. Wish i had it today, it been worth something today. . Lesson learnd.😢
WOW. I have really been lucky.
I had three Dodges go 100,000+ miles without that problem and now my 2005 Jeep Liberty has 275,000 miles, no whine as yet.
Iv personally reused my crush collar by putting it over a solid metal bar or even the pinion it’s self and slowly massage it with a small hammer to stretch it out a few millimeters.
Works absolutely fine 👌🏽
As a machinist, I hate crush sleeves. I would rather take the extra time and shim it to the correct tolerance.
Same here, learned the hard way!
ive turned a few in my lathe only for convenience and not for money savings
Very Informative !! .....Why not Double Jam nut using a 2nd nut to prevent the nut backoff ??
I worked in a Calif farming town in a mom pop parts store. The town was flooded with Astro vans used for farm labor transport. We were on the main entrance to town and the vans would back off the gas right in front of our store. I swear, every rear end howled as they came into town. We stocked all the bearings, seals, crush, gaskets needed to fix these things. We only ever sold the pinion seal. Once, while delivering parts, I saw the shop owner take an air gun and rattle tattle tighten down the pinion nut as far as it would go..
It would be difficult with the one shown but in a pinch you can place the sleeve over a bar or the pinion itself, if you support it with soft wood, and hammer around on the high point of the sleeve diameter. This expands the sleeve. The preload for all GM axles I worked on was 15 inch pounds on used bearings and 30 inch pounds on new. This is easier with the carrier removed.
Wow! I bet this is my issue. I thought it to be something out of balance in either the engine or tranny. 1962 F-100 w/ a 9".
I'll be changing to a later year model used 9" rearend shortly. I'll know what is then for sure....dang it, unless it has the same problem.
Great video!
The preload is required to reduce pinion gear head movement/deflection in the bearing radial direction as torque increases. If the gear moves too far you get noise issues or destroyed gear teeth.
It takes force to press the pinion tail bearing cone onto the stem. It also takes force to drive the pinion flange onto the splines on the stem (majority of new pinion stem splines have a slight helix which creates an interference fit). When the pinion flange nut is tightened it generates force to drive the tail bearing cone and pinion flange splines farther onto the shaft. It is a very high amount of force. The crush spacer equalizes the force generated by the pinion nut. In the case the crush isn’t in place the high force generated by the nut will continue to drive the bearing cone and flange onto the pinion stem after you stop rotating the nut (due to creep).
If you to assemble a pinion without a crush spacer and get lucky enough to end up with good initial preload/rolling torque you’ll end up frying the bearings later. As soon as you heavily load the gear set in the drive direction and push the pinion hard into the head bearing the tail bearing loses axial preload and the force generated by the pinion nut pushes the tail bearing cone and pinion flange further onto the stem. When torque is reduces the bearings are going fry themselves.
If your pinion splines do not have a helix/interference fit (old reused worn pinion flange) the pinion flange has slight rotation relative the pinion stem which will back the nut off.
When crushing these crush sleeves the way I do it on every diff is turn the pinion with a in pound torque wrench and tighten the nut until you have 20in lbs of rolling resistance or 30 for new bearings
Fords have a smaller crush sleeve or bushing! What I do in a race application is crunch the sleeve down to normal install specs ….then remove it and measure the thickness….then I go to my abundance of shims and get something close …install the selected shims and torque to spec. Then I’ll check for looseness and break away torque…if it’s not right I’ll add if subtract till I get the desired specs….haven’t ever had an issue..
Really good video. Great information. Thanks
Thanks Tony, been working with cars for forty years plus and never reused a crush collar before. I may try that shim idea next time I am that deep again. Seems like an excellent procedure and I wonder sometimes how I didn’t hear that from someone when doing jobs like replacing pinion gears after blown and lunched rear ends over the years. I personally would not agree to go with the majority of utubers out there but yes that would be the best answer with a strong disclaimer of any true accuracy. I always find the book and exact measurements, requirements and settings for the device or for the machine. If you strike out finding the book on what you are working on, like if you have to know now, then yes probably your best choice for utubers would be to go with the majority of the ones claiming they know that match others. I am busy and every once in awhile when I know I have a problem on a machine I may watch a utube on it. More than I want to admit I was fooled by some one claiming Jesus level expertise on this exact make and model only to find out in reality they were completely wrong. I can’t even remember the times. The last one I clearly remember was when this guy on a video swore you could just unstrap a gas tank if it is this exact make and model and all the factory connections and gas line would not have to be touched. He swore his life this was correct betting his pride and reputation on it. He had twenty five college degrees for working on cars. I watch this crap thinking: OK I got it, going to do that. Nothing was long enough to do that. Supposedly same exact machine make and model that he was working on. So a guy is fumbling around jacking the tank back up and re-strapping it back up. I knew I had listened to a person who mistook what he had stating they were all that way. So unwitting, blooming idiot or evil, no don’t do that, don’t ever do that or think of trying that on this exact make and model machine at stock height, the gas line and wires are not long enough to reach, beware idiots out there are wrong. My machine was pristine, never been touched in that area by hands outside the factory. The fuel pump failed the kind inside the tank. His video was a perfect way to set a guy up to rip off or break the gas line and wiring. In his video he is stating, yeh, the wires won’t look like they are going to be long enough to reach the ground but trust me and God that we know they will reach. So always beware, this bad advice caused me to lose a little time. I took a close look and thought, yeh right, there is no way this gas line or wiring are long enough to reach the ground but I just saw it done and the guy said it will look like they are not long enough. I decide I will proceed but move slow, just in case. What saved me was going slow and watching while keeping it on the jack. When it was about in inch from being on the ground it was apparent that anything lower would cause damage. You are screwed, without the tank straps connected and it just balancing on the floor Jack, you have no choice but to carefully jack it back up to reconnect the straps so you can disconnect it where it was at. That is awkward, slow and painful to do where it is at. You were trying to save time doing it this utube guys way, (idiot, I don’t know). In the end it didn’t save anything, it cost me time. Why did I listen to this guy, well, right, got suckered. Always understand to watch and listen and trust your own understanding and feelings on something. Hard to know how accurate the information is. More often than not it is accurate or fairly accurate, that is why you can get burned and sometimes real well, when it is not accurate.
Ive re used them but measured them. If you change bearings or gears or both, sometimes if you kow the measurement you can crush further. Done the shim many times went parts just are not available. Mostly old stuff we are trying to save. I have an old craftsman top box and a whole drawer with nothing but shims!
I drive a 2004 astro cargo van. it was running cold. I took it to a local shop to get the thermostat replaced and they did. two days later, what you described, howling on accel and quiet on coast I knew what it was and thought, now how, aside from bending rust bucket's frame on a lift could they have thrown my drive shaft angle all to whack?" And why would they have lifted it to swap out the thermostat?? - Well, knowing full well this shops pocket response to "you broke it" only results in a new appointment and further charges, I drove around like that for a while. I took it to a quick lube place where I get her oil changed and asked them to refill the diff. I heard someone exclaim "The seal is bent!" and the brought me a picture on a phone of my dented diff pumpkin and asked if I had ran over anything. They also said any gear oil would just run out and I was better off with the sludge. So crap, now I need a reman diff at least. prolly wheel bearings and maybe axles too. 🤦♂
Great video.
Now this is the kind of Info/ Vid that’s hi-value!
Perfectly ‘splained!
I'm planning of getting the Dr. Diff crush sleeve eliminater for my 489 case
Went with solid shims for the pinion preload. I'll never look back
Thanks Tony
I would mark the nut and change seals putting the nut back to original and never had a problem. Anything deeper got a new crush but making it crush often took way more torque than it should. Especially on Ford 8.8 rears.
Hahaha! Try crush sleeve torquing a Dana 135 truck diff! Now that's a job!
Learned this years ago in the off road world.
My 68 GTO has a noisy ring and pinion now. Was told I needed a complete rebuild kit put in.
I have done many diffs. And never had a problem with the sleeve. I have seen people stuff around with solid spacers and shims etc and usually have grief. Occasionally you may have to use a new sleeve because the old one is squashed too far or use say a 015" shim.
This on GM 10 bolts both US and Aussie, B/W diffs, 9" lumps, Mazda, Toyota and Big Austin diffs.
Pinion nuts do NOT back off, either use the crimp or simply loctite and make certain the bearings are all good and washers flat. And getting pinion height correct the biggest pain. The ones with threaded adjusters seldom ever cause and issue
Too many diffs especially with side shims will get decidedly wonky and even after reshimming will generally 'talk'
Happened to me in my 99 Ram 1500 towing a pop-up camper 1,000lbs of band gear. Rebuilt the rear end with a crush sleeve eliminator.
I have a sound coming for my differential and it sounds like that but on the acceleration side. Local Chevy mechanic couldn't figure it out after 2 months. No witness marks or anything. They lied. New Dana rear end. Z71 posi 3 years ago
Thank you UT. great tip.
This might be a silly question, but why not use a heavy-duty spring instead of a crush collar? That way pre-load would always be maintained.