Hi! Yes indeed, people still playing Civ 5 in 2020! I too love a good theory, it's part of the reason I started the channel to have a way to express it!
Technically, you *can* get triple-shot Chukonu's as China. The trick is that you have to get lucky with ruins and promote a Scout with the Scouting 3 Promotion to an archer and then upgrade to a Chukonu, getting Logistics along the way.
Thank you - I'm glad you enjoyed it! My reasoning is: 1. Growing is an investment in the future. Working food gives you no yields you can use right now. At some point in the game, there is not enough future left for the extra citizen(s) to be worthwhile. At pop 30 an extra ciziten is only +3.33% population in that city. Also, somewhere between pop 15 and pop 20-22 tends to be enough to work all the useful endgame tiles in a city, so incremental growth gets less value after that 2. So at some point, the payback from that extra citizen from the growth is not worth as much as the extra science/production/gold yields you could be working instead of food 3. A good example is my capital in this game. It's growth was wholly powered by internal food trade routes. One internal production trade route at the end of the game is 12-13 production per turn. So, in order to grow I was having to give up 24-39 production per turn. That extra citizen didn't even have a hill to work as I was already using them, so the best I could do was drop it into a specialist slot for +1 hammer from Statue of Liberty. 4. So... clearly that new citizen would never pay back those hammers given up to make the city grow. The only other advantage from growing is science. Each population is +2 base science by the end game. Working a specialist with Rationalism is +2 base science thanks to Secularism. So, by taking a citizen off a pure food tile and working a specialist we gain the extra hammer from Statue, and gain the amount of science equal to growing that extra pop anyway. Similarly, going from a pure food tile to a trading post (no jungle) is also +1 base science. Making that switch twice also equals the science from another population point, but you get extra gold or production yields. Of course, you could make these switches after gaining the extra pop, but as I've said, at some point there's not enough time for the new pop to pay back the lost yields from growing 5. Thanks to all of the above, on Deity and MP on Quick Speed a perfect time to stagnate your cities for max production and science tends to be between T140 and T160, converting all your food trade routes to hammer trade routes within that timespan. This is because: - New citizens are unlikely to pay back what you lose to grow them - In the case they would pay themselves back, it turns out to be much better to get all that production earlier anyway - In MP or war focused end games you NEED to be spamming only units from about T160 onwards to ensure you have enough bombers and land units to be effective and flexible late game. Without this you'll find yourself on the back foot (A game tends to end between T180 and T220) Hope that helps?
@@PCJLaw Wow, incredible. Really good explanation thank you, from one stream and one comment you've completely changed the way I perceived efficiency in Civ. Extremely useful for me particularly, where in my games I find myself ahead of production queue and constantly pressing next turn but only winning after turn 240.
I'm glad I could help - let me know where your win times get to, if you're still struggling to get them down we can try to diagnose your strategy a bit! I'd definitely focus on growing between T60 and T120 as a start. If you follow the science beeline and save scientists, the next thing to work on is growing your population fast and early, and after that it's about making sure to acquire the right number of cities given your luxuries/growth potential. A side strategy is making sure to get your research agreements signed by hording gold from selling strategic resources with the AI, but while you're still learning how to grow it can cause you to have some misleading win times! Getting good, early population solves so many problems in civ 5!
2:54:10 Question: Why did you let Japan get that city down? Looks like you could've blocked the only 2 possible spots with the idle workers. In my experience when you do that the AI sends their settler elsewhere after a couple of turns, is that different on deity?
Hi! You're absolutely right! I could have blocked off the only possible spots, but at that point they weren't going to steal and work-able tiles. I just let them do their thing and carried on my way lol You're right in what I should have done to stop them though!
Hi! I try to stream twice a week, once on the weekend and once during the week. Typically evenings (UK time). Sunday is my most common weekend day, but during the week varies depending on the demands of my job
Fair enough. I made the point on the stream and chat asked me to continue. It's the only time I've reloaded on stream when a win wasn't 100% guaranteed, and I did it specifically because I wanted to demonstrate it can be done if you don't noob the diplomacy like me (the lack of units really doesn't factor into it) I guess I was meant to get a comment like this when my subs are at 666 ;) Apologies the title has mislead you
Fair enough, we decided to play it on rather than start a new game on the stream, as it was obvious this one was a write off from the moment it happened (bad lands + DoW we weren't prepared for = sure fire L or a super painful game) I try not to curate the content much so you see the failures as well as the successes (as not all Deity games can be wins), shame you didn't enjoy this one because of it Would you have preferred we went straight to new (I guess it does break "game integrity")? Personally I carried on because I wanted to show that terrible lands really don't have to mean a loss on Deity (since this one could have been avoided, had I not been chatting away forgetting to check my borders every turn)
@@PCJLaw I'm learning a ton from from your videos. On this particular game, it was the worst case scenario and you should've called it a loss and start a new game. Claiming it as a win felt wrong to me. Don't mean for it to sound harsh. Just didn't feel right. Thanks for replying. Will continue watching!
@@emont756 Thanks for your reply and glad you're learning! I totally hear you and I need people to tell me that and keep me grounded! Besides exceptional circumstances, I definitely want to enforce a "no reloads" rule on the channel going forward
Love some new theories from a fellow 2020 civ v player ^_^
Hi! Yes indeed, people still playing Civ 5 in 2020!
I too love a good theory, it's part of the reason I started the channel to have a way to express it!
Technically, you *can* get triple-shot Chukonu's as China. The trick is that you have to get lucky with ruins and promote a Scout with the Scouting 3 Promotion to an archer and then upgrade to a Chukonu, getting Logistics along the way.
What's the thought process behind capping the capitals pop at 30? Great stream btw.
Thank you - I'm glad you enjoyed it!
My reasoning is:
1. Growing is an investment in the future. Working food gives you no yields you can use right now. At some point in the game, there is not enough future left for the extra citizen(s) to be worthwhile. At pop 30 an extra ciziten is only +3.33% population in that city. Also, somewhere between pop 15 and pop 20-22 tends to be enough to work all the useful endgame tiles in a city, so incremental growth gets less value after that
2. So at some point, the payback from that extra citizen from the growth is not worth as much as the extra science/production/gold yields you could be working instead of food
3. A good example is my capital in this game. It's growth was wholly powered by internal food trade routes. One internal production trade route at the end of the game is 12-13 production per turn. So, in order to grow I was having to give up 24-39 production per turn. That extra citizen didn't even have a hill to work as I was already using them, so the best I could do was drop it into a specialist slot for +1 hammer from Statue of Liberty.
4. So... clearly that new citizen would never pay back those hammers given up to make the city grow. The only other advantage from growing is science. Each population is +2 base science by the end game. Working a specialist with Rationalism is +2 base science thanks to Secularism. So, by taking a citizen off a pure food tile and working a specialist we gain the extra hammer from Statue, and gain the amount of science equal to growing that extra pop anyway. Similarly, going from a pure food tile to a trading post (no jungle) is also +1 base science. Making that switch twice also equals the science from another population point, but you get extra gold or production yields. Of course, you could make these switches after gaining the extra pop, but as I've said, at some point there's not enough time for the new pop to pay back the lost yields from growing
5. Thanks to all of the above, on Deity and MP on Quick Speed a perfect time to stagnate your cities for max production and science tends to be between T140 and T160, converting all your food trade routes to hammer trade routes within that timespan. This is because:
- New citizens are unlikely to pay back what you lose to grow them
- In the case they would pay themselves back, it turns out to be much better to get all that production earlier anyway
- In MP or war focused end games you NEED to be spamming only units from about T160 onwards to ensure you have enough bombers and land units to be effective and flexible late game. Without this you'll find yourself on the back foot
(A game tends to end between T180 and T220)
Hope that helps?
@@PCJLaw Wow, incredible. Really good explanation thank you, from one stream and one comment you've completely changed the way I perceived efficiency in Civ. Extremely useful for me particularly, where in my games I find myself ahead of production queue and constantly pressing next turn but only winning after turn 240.
I'm glad I could help - let me know where your win times get to, if you're still struggling to get them down we can try to diagnose your strategy a bit!
I'd definitely focus on growing between T60 and T120 as a start. If you follow the science beeline and save scientists, the next thing to work on is growing your population fast and early, and after that it's about making sure to acquire the right number of cities given your luxuries/growth potential.
A side strategy is making sure to get your research agreements signed by hording gold from selling strategic resources with the AI, but while you're still learning how to grow it can cause you to have some misleading win times!
Getting good, early population solves so many problems in civ 5!
2:54:10 Question: Why did you let Japan get that city down? Looks like you could've blocked the only 2 possible spots with the idle workers. In my experience when you do that the AI sends their settler elsewhere after a couple of turns, is that different on deity?
Hi!
You're absolutely right! I could have blocked off the only possible spots, but at that point they weren't going to steal and work-able tiles. I just let them do their thing and carried on my way lol
You're right in what I should have done to stop them though!
What’s your streaming schedule?
Hi!
I try to stream twice a week, once on the weekend and once during the week. Typically evenings (UK time). Sunday is my most common weekend day, but during the week varies depending on the demands of my job
This wasn't a victory. You built no troops, got a declaration of war, then reloaded because you were going to be crushed.
Fair enough. I made the point on the stream and chat asked me to continue.
It's the only time I've reloaded on stream when a win wasn't 100% guaranteed, and I did it specifically because I wanted to demonstrate it can be done if you don't noob the diplomacy like me (the lack of units really doesn't factor into it)
I guess I was meant to get a comment like this when my subs are at 666 ;)
Apologies the title has mislead you
Wow I have no respect for this game after you restarted due to the war. That's unreal man
Fair enough, we decided to play it on rather than start a new game on the stream, as it was obvious this one was a write off from the moment it happened (bad lands + DoW we weren't prepared for = sure fire L or a super painful game)
I try not to curate the content much so you see the failures as well as the successes (as not all Deity games can be wins), shame you didn't enjoy this one because of it
Would you have preferred we went straight to new (I guess it does break "game integrity")? Personally I carried on because I wanted to show that terrible lands really don't have to mean a loss on Deity (since this one could have been avoided, had I not been chatting away forgetting to check my borders every turn)
@@PCJLaw I'm learning a ton from from your videos. On this particular game, it was the worst case scenario and you should've called it a loss and start a new game. Claiming it as a win felt wrong to me. Don't mean for it to sound harsh. Just didn't feel right. Thanks for replying. Will continue watching!
@@emont756 Thanks for your reply and glad you're learning!
I totally hear you and I need people to tell me that and keep me grounded!
Besides exceptional circumstances, I definitely want to enforce a "no reloads" rule on the channel going forward