GM's Forgotten Engines: The Buick "Red Dot" V-6
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video, we'll discuss the Buick LG2 and LG3 "Red Dot" V-6 engine that was produced from 1984 to 1988. This was the precursor to the stout 3800 series V-6 that was produced throughout much of the late 80s and 90s. We'll also talk about some of the cars it powered, including the C body Buick LeSabre (standard and T-Type), and the E body Oldsmobile Toronado and Buick Riviera.
I worked as a Tech at GM during these years. The cars felt and drove awesome with the 90 degree variants. I purchased a new 1986 Grand Am SE - White with White wheels and the 3.0 V6. 125C trans. It would run out of breath about 5000 rpm, but the Torque was incredible It would consistently brake engine mounts due to my Jack rabbits starts to spin the front tires-
Nice my first car when I was 16 was an 87 SE Coupe white on white with the 3.0 it had 147k on it when I got it all highway commuter miles. That thing was a gas guzzler but it would run 70-80 on the interstate all day long with ease. I ran it to 181k and sold it to my weed dealer after I bought a brand new 98 Metro. The guy I sold it to detailed cars for a living and that grand am looked showroom-new within a few days after he got ahold of it. He ended up flipping it for $2500.
Greatly appreciate this channel not trying to ret/con the early years of the 231 V6.
They were total trash in the A/G bodies and anyone who owned them as 2nd or 3rd hand in the early 90s knew the V8 cars were the best option to avoid throwing a rod.
Thanks for recognizing the 3.8’s transition from a pile of carbureted garbage to the Series I becoming an “iron fist in a velvet glove.”
I had this motor in my Cutlass Calais. I loved it, it was fast, loved to rev and had torque. Very rare in the late 80s.
People own, talk about the many variations of the 3.8 liter V6/ 3800 V6. It is legendary. They should have stuck with it and upgraded it. I know the 3.6 liter V6 is not viewed favorably. That is why the new GM vehicles use 4 cylinders I guess. I own two cars with the 3800 ( Series I ( 1992 Oldsmobile Toronado) and Series II( 1996 Oldsmobile 98). They went up to Series III in the 2000's. They said the best years started in 1988 with the 3800 released that year. I know they call these "red dots" and I never could tell the difference between the 140 hp version and the 150 hp version. You described them. I was glad GM kept reworking this engine. I thought the version used in 1985 was under powered. I know Cutlass Ciera/Ciera used the 3.8 liter version at 150 hp. Pontiac wanted that version for the 6000 STE, but the general manger of Pontiac at the time said no. The 3300 V6 was derived from the 3800 V6. It was a reliable too. Yes, I would like to see videos on the GM models ( Oldsmobile Ninety Eight, Oldsmobile Eighty Eight, Toronado and Pontiac Bonneville, Buick Riviera etc.) I will be honest... I was not a fan of the downsized era at GM ( 1985-1991). I was so glad when they started upsizing the cars in 1989. They finished it by 1992 model year. The engine the 3800 was used in the C, H, and E and W Bodies and at Holden/GM in Australia. Thank you for the video.
The 3.6 liter gets a bad reputation that it doesn't deserve. The real issue with the 3.6 L isn't an issue at all. It requires more maintenance because of what it is. You can't allow a dual overhead cam engine to be ignored with oil changes and you're especially can't run dog s*** motor oil. All those extra moving parts means a lot more things to go wrong if you want to be cheap about it. That being said I'm a huge 3800 fan but I've had many variations of a 3.6 L now for the last 20 years. I had no issues with any of them. In fact a 3.6 L is in fact the most popular V6 engine on the road in the United States right now. It's literally in everything. Camaros, Colorado's Cadillacs traverses you name it, it's got one. Some of the early variations had an issue with the timing chain stretching which was corrected pretty quickly only to be repeated once again when they started putting them in the traverses and acadia's. So once again Joe Motors got to work and corrected the issue permanently. The biggest issue with being put in those SUVs as they wait a tremendous amount for the motor, and that put a lot of labor on the drivetrain. I got no, we had a 2008 Traverse that we put 210,000 Mi on and never had an issue with it. I guess changing the oil every 5,000 Mi and using synthetic oil was all that really needed to be happy. The reason everybody is switching to Turbo 4 cylinders isn't because they have an issue with any motor in particular, it's because the EPA wants fuel mileage out of these engines today that quite frankly is an obtainable reliably. So they have to cheat and use a 4-cylinder turbo because while it's idling it makes the quota for the EPA but can still get close if not a little better than what a naturally aspirated V6 could get.
@@ashes2ashes863 Thank you for explaining the experience with the 3.6 liter V6. As you said people do not want to do the maintenance and just drive it into the ground. Thank you for explaining the details of the engine as well. I agree about why they are using 4 cylinders industry wide. Excellent detailed response.
Superb video. The 3.8 V6 is one of GM’s best V6 engines ever.
Thank you!
My parents bought a 1988 Old Cutlass Ciera International Series brand new in May of 1988 and it came with the "Red Dot" 3.8 V6. At the time, it was one of the more potent powered sedans on the road. It had plenty of power and it could very easily spin the front wheels at a stop light and it handled very well with the FE3 suspension. Yes it did idle rough but other than that, it was a great engine. Good power and excellent fuel economy as it effortlessly cruised the highways. There was no problem with passing anything on the road. Sadly it was traded in for a new Monte Carlo Z34 in 1996 with the DOHC 3.4, which my Dad regretted.
87 Grand am with a 3.0 v6 . We put 350,000 miles on it before the oil pump went out. The transmissions in those cars I swear were bulletproof. that was an excellent car. No complaints
I owned two late 80s GAs, one with the 3.0 and one with the iron duke. Sold the 3.0 at 181k and the car was still in excellent shape. I drove the 2.5 up to around 290k before the 125c started slipping. The car would fall apart long before these engines would die
My parents were in the market for a new car in 87'. There were some leftover 87 LeSabres on the lot they drove and a few fresh off the truck 88's with the 3800. Test drive between the two back to back were night and day. They took home the 3800 and then as a family we beat on that thing for years. They eventually sold it when it had about 150k on it and fast forward 20 years or so, I saw it the other day, still running.
I'm also a big fan of Buick T-Type cars. Even the worst T-Type is better than the crossover garbage people drive today. I'm not a big fan of front wheel drive cars. But the ones GM made in the 80s are some good cars. I've had a few. And would love to have another one today.
By the way. Definitely agree with you about the touch screens.
Thanks. And I 100% agree with you as well.
It was absolutely one of the best engines GM ever produced and this is coming from a Blue Oval guy!!!!!
At the time they were really something. My mom and dad bought a brand new Century in the Fall of '87 with the 3.8. We were used to the cars of the day. '79 Buick Regal, '78 Jeep Cherokee, both V8 but rear and all wheel drive and of course carbureted. The throttle response of that Century (which was not a heavy car to begin with) was something to behold at the time. That car was a sleeper back then. I think it was only rated for 150 hp but it delivered it very well. I remember it keeping up with a clapped out Z/28 up a mountain grade. The Camaro driver thought he could easily shake a front-drive Buick. He couldn't. At least not on that day. We took that Buick all the way to 195K back when most cars never got to 100 (the odometer turned over after 99,999). When I started work at General Electric the standard issue car to field engineers was a front drive 3.8 GM platform. All the guys liked how well they ran.
i had a '86 Century 3.8 it had the digital tach & went like stink all with typical Buick smoothness
Red Dot was on the intake manifold bot the vavle cover.
I owned an 86, 88 & 89 LeSabres
All 3 were gems!
They were a pretty good motor! Worked at Buick 87-2004. Only thing was the timing gear failures. Not too many leaks, just normal stuff with age. When they first came out, we had a stalling on decel issue that they didn’t know at first how to fix. So they came out with a "stall kit" . New crank sensor, MAF sensor , IAC motor and an updated PROM. Then we learned it was really mostly a dirty throttle body cuz it was vented before the throttle plate from the crankcase, and they got Uber dirty and choked. Very found memories overall. ❤
In ‘86 I picked out a new LeSabre 2dr for my mother. Silver with Grand Touring package (alloys/lp tires, stiffer springs & sway bars)
Her favorite car.
I agree with you on the LeSabre T-Type, great looking car!
I used to be an Oldsmobile dealership technician when these cars were out. Overall they were great engines but they had an Achilles heel. They had a nylon coated camshaft sprocket that would eventually fail and cause the timing to jump and then bend the valves because the valves would end up hitting the pistons. If you managed to catch this issue before it happened and put a decent timing set with all metal sprockets into the engine instead, it would last a very long time and it was a very good engine. Most of the time though you wouldn't get any pre-warning like change slapping or anything like that, it would just fail and the valves would get bent. The other thing is because the engine lacked the balance shaft it did idle a bit rough.
I know there were always issues with those nylon timing gears, in whichever engine they used them. I couldn't imagine putting one in an interference engine.
About twenty Years ago My Mother had a 1987 Delta 88 with the 3.8 and overdrive , we got it from the original owner , the car was really nice , the engine was ok , it did suffer from not one but 2 timing chain failures over the course of its life , the first chain failed when the car was only a few years old , the second one failed at way over 150.000 miles the engine and valve train survived both times amazingly , the problem with that car was the transmission that TH444 /4t60 was a pile of trash! that car suffered 6 transmission failures starting very early in its life right up until the end around 175,000 miles , I have no idea what caused it , the cooler was replaced and or cleaned every time and the first several were done under warranty and were using GM SRTA Replacements, , finally I took the newer revised version with the round electrical connecter from a 1993 Cutlass Cierra with a 3300 V6 and put it in that old Delta 88 and changed the electrical connector to the round style and it never failed again , in the end something else happened to the car and it was parked for the winter and when I dug it out in the spring it spun a rod bearing and by that time the car was getting old so we just sent it to the scrap yard
Since I was a wrench at an Olds dealer from 86-91 and I've owned a 2005 Impala SS with the L67 3.8L since 2009, I found this video really cool to watch. A lot of cool info. I totally forgot about those T type LeSabres. Only saw a handful back in the late 80s but I do remember them. The red dot? Hell, I remember the first time one came with with an intermittent drivability issue (around 1986, my first year at the "stealer".) 150 HP was wicked for that year in a V6 when you consider that the Olds 307 was 140hp, chevy 305, Ford 302 (non Mustang) were all similar. When I took this red dot Cutlass Cierra for a test drive, that thing,for it's time,was a blast to drive. To think that mill would get up to 200 hp by 1995 (series II) seemed crazy back then. Then 240hp with a supercharged version. Now that combo seems ancient , a GEN III Eaton M90 supercharger , iron heads, no intercooler....but it worked and didnt take much to modify it.
Had a bunch of jeeps with the 225 dauntless , I loved em
An awesome engine. Buddy of mine had the 87 Lesabre with that engine and it was such a smooth and strong engine
Agreed, the 87-89 Buick LeSabre T-type was a great car. The final drive ratio was quicker than the other models which made the car even faster. Too bad the car didn't get the Grand National motor. I owned an 88 back in the day and the only reason I sold it was the rear spoiler which was made of some type of molded foam started to warp and it was no longer available from GM. The 3800 was probably the best overall motor GM ever made.
I had one of these in a n 87 riviera. I LIKED it...Decent power and mileage. and pretty smooth running.
Til this day i still drive my 86 Bonneville with the oem engine👍🏿
This engine was actually developed from a small aluminum V8 that Buick introduced in the early 1960's, the 215. They had problems with the engine, so they sold the design to Rover of the UK, who perfected it and cast it in Iron. It was used in Rover cars and Land Rover trucks up until not too long ago. GM needed a V6, so they bought the design rights back from Rover and cut two cylinders out to make the 90 degree V6. This was the "Fireball" V6, and it had an odd firing order that along with the 90 degree bank angle made this a bit of a course engine, but it worked well.
My parents had an 86 Toronado with the red dot engine. I took my road test in that car. It was so smooth and very quick. GM don't make them like they used to I'm afraid.
Still own and drive 1998 Delta 88. 328000. Miles. 28 to 31 miles per gallon. At 80 miles per hour AC on. Drive from Atlanta to South Florida two to three times a year. Transmission was replaced at 22000.miles under warranty in 1991. No engine or transmission problems so far. Knock on wood.
1989 Delta 88
My parents bought a new 1986 Olds Delta 88 Royle sedan, light blue. Had the 3.0 liter V6 and ran well.😁🤟
I love the 3800. But didnt know much about the Red Dot version. But these years of the Le Sabres were my favorite especially the two door. Just loved the front hinged bonnet on them. So cool. 😊
Yeah, that hood was a nice touch.
Grandma bought an '86 Olds 88....these things ran SO much better than anything from the prior 10 years it felt like it would jump out from under you compared to the Iron Duke Skylark she traded in....and it didn't use and more fuel. The 150 hp Buick engine and the 5.0 Mustang GT gave us hope for the future of cars.
The red dot was not on the valve cover it is on the intake. Why is it that most of the people who post automotive videos on TH-cam don't have a clue of what they are talking a out.
had one in an 86 park avenue. made lots of power and torque. only front drive car I owned that would boil the tires. I spun a rod bearing in it during a drag race and couldn't find parts to repair it. one guy told me that they had poor oiling issues.
GM had some crazy FWD cars back in the day. The Toronado is the craziest I can think of. What other longitudinal, V8, car with a backwards transmission alongside the engine exists? None. My friend has an 82 diesel Toronado with 650,000 miles on the original engine with upgraded head gaskets and head studs. He's building a new 5.7 diesel engine with many custom parts like 18:1 compression pistons, GT3582 turbo, custom MLS headgaskets, billet steel splayed bolt main caps, custom injection pump, and much more. The current worn out engine manages 40mpg on the highway. The engineering during this time period was insane, starting with the EFI on the Cosworth Vega in 1975 and ending in the early 2000s.
My grandmother had a 1988 Olds Cutlass Ciera with this (LG2) engine. It was very smooth and powerful for the time. I do remember seeing it had Bosch injectors versus Rochester injectors that were more common for GM engines in that era.
Dad bought a new 1986 Toronado. Very smooth engine and peppy.
Very good content here my brother!!!!~
Thanks!
I own a 1985 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera with the flat tappet " Red Dot" 3.8L. You had the horsepower ratings mixed up in your video. The flat tappet made the 125hp while the roller version made the 150hp.
Does yours have a distributor and port injection?
the flat tappet (LG2) did not make 125, it makes 140hp at 4.4krpms
I like the 2 tone lesabre T type interior it reminds me of the somerset skylark and somerset regal those red dot v6s were super reliable I had an 87 bonniville with this v6
MAF sensors were used starting in 1984 on the Porsche 928S2. There may have been other cars with the same Bosch LH2.2 fuel injection system as well.
I can't say the 3.8 of any generation is truly smooth. Even the later engines with balance shafts still had a bit of an idle shimmy that could be seen and some what felt. Do I still love these engines? Absolutely! I have seen these engines with 300,000 miles on them, both well taken care of and abused to the point I know my Honda engines would have both given up the ghost by 100,000 miles vs the 305,000 and 260,000 on my two Hondas currently. I know these engines can be killed, have seen plenty destroyed in junkyards, but I do see far less 3800s than I see things like Ford and Chrysler vehicles of the same vintage in junkyards.
The issue was the nylon timing gear destroyed a lot of these . Clogged oil passages
Hearing your voice you gotta be from the Wilmington area.
Me, too. Kirkwood Highway and Milltown.
1988 LeSabre still had this engine as standard equipment on base model; 3800 was optional.
Someone in my neighborhood had a 1987 LeSabre T Type coupe in good shape in the late eighties.😁👍
My dad had one of 150hp of the red dot in a 1986.5 Cutlass Ciera GT. Wasnt an overly smooth engine without the balance shaft. Sure had a bunch of torque steer in the front driver. It did go through about 3 MAF sensors before he traded it in on a Olds 98 Regency.
A buddy had a cutlass ciera gt in high school and it had one of these in it, and for being a "grandma car" is was pretty quick.
The 3.8 SEFi had a ravishing engine note, it's second best feature.Its first, it's excellent performance and fuel consumption. 🥝✔️
I owned a 1989 Riveria with the 3800 V6 (pre series I). It was a smooth and torquey engine but ran out of breath about 1000 rpms before redline. It was kinda pointless to press the engine past 5000 rpm. I also owned a 1990 Accord at the time and it was quite different - much more comfortable in the upper region of the tach. The Riv grew in 1989 and was the only year with the GCC and the larger body. Olds grew the Toronado in 1990. Their version of the GCC, called the Visual Information Center if I recall correctly, was more colorful and offered more hard navigation buttons. I think that was discontinued in 1992. Hard to believe that GM was decades ahead of the curve.
For once...
Excellent video as always. Love your channel!
As for the engine. I would say it was a fair but unremarkable engine and not the most reliable engine either.
I recall them not being as reliable as the 3800… And overshadowed really in every way by 3800 .
Thank you!
Red Dot was a brand of potato chips. Now Lay's. Good chips. Good motor. Red Dot!
Just scored a pre series 1 3800 out of an Oldsmobile. They cut the wiring harness right at the engine. Now I need to find a car that has that engine, to get the harness and controls.
I HATE it when wires get cut like that
@@rporestorations Well, the old men that did it had no clue? When I do ANY front wheel drive engine removal. I take the whole K member with front suspension, steering, and transmission as a unit. Including all wiring harnesses and ECU boxes.
What I would like to know is any of the red dot engine components compatible with the older 3.8L v6s? Does this one have the crank driven oil pump front cover or is it still the older design? If it is the older design did it have a oil pump plug drive on the distributorless version? And how easy would it be to use the ignition on an older version?
I'm asking because the parts that will fit on the older v6 will fit on the 215/300/350 Buick engines. Thanks in advance.😎👍
Owned several and never cared for the 3800 engine.
My 3800 series 2 wrnt 102k threw a rod right threw the block
0:15 subscribed
Thanks!
@@rporestorations yeah no problem!
GM3800 as found in Commordores, was generally a pile of crap. Bases models had little performance. HSV did some upgrades, and the Supercharged version was better, but mostly they were specced to be cheap to manufacture and reliable enough to meet the warranty time & distance. The version used in the Formula Holden (aka Formula Braham or F4000) had a signifigant issue with the GM ECU - it would loose count of the crankshaft motion, reset and fire all cylinders at once,.... Causing the crankshaft to experince a shockloading great enough to cause cracking, or the whole thing to shatter. Problem went away when the rules specified MoTeC ecu's instead of GM's.
I mean a 1989 Delta 88.
The " one gallon wonder "
Ha!
This engine was wasted in all those front wheel drive cars.
I believe the red dot series 3.8 was still a 90 degree block casting n the new series 1 3.8 was cast as a 60 degree v both r good engines tho
All Buick V6s were 90 degree engines
GM made 90 degree Buick 3.0 & 3.8 V6's during the same time as they made 60 degree Chevrolet 2.8 & 3.1 V6's. Many GM models were offered with either, the Buick being the higher cost option. Then there's the simpler Buick 3.3 and the very complex Chevrolet 3.4 versions which were opposite approaches -- one made the mechanic look forward to going to work and the other made him cry.
Not correct. This engine, the 231/3.8/3800 are all 90 degree engines. They were based upon an aluminum V8 that GM sold for a few years in the early 1960's.
These engines were all junk 😂😂😂 no matter what color dot you had