GM FWD A Body: Attack of the Clones!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- Welcome to Auto Chatter! Todays discussion is about the mid size front wheel drive GM A body cars. You may have thought Dolly the Sheep was the first thing we cloned, but looking at these cars, that was not the case! Join me for a brief Chatter about these vehicles! If you enjoyed it, consider watching some of my other videos and subscribing!
Great channel, love your videos
Thank you for Super Thanks!
I was a very happy owner of a 1986 Pontiac 6000 STE and that was another car that I loved. I really wish they had designed the AWD system with the 4 spd auto though. Mine was a fairly good stranded me anywhere. I would love to have it back again.
It was still cool they actually made a AWD one, but it didn't sell well.
I owned an 84 6000 STE too. Beautiful car, ran strong. I, too, wish I still had it. I did keep the bucket seats for my 65 Chevy. pickup.
My Dad had an '87 STE. I used to love that car, it was light blue and had the moonroof and digital dash, and even ABS brakes. When something did go wrong though, it was very expensive to fix.
My mom had an 86 STE. It was my college car. My friends loved the digital dash and steering wheel radio controls. It was a pretty good car!
@@scottgrygiel1377 That steering wheel was all buttons!
Minor correction: the 3.8 wasn't the "3800" until the even fire, offset cylinder, sequential port injected, balance shaft equipped LN3 debuted in 1988. Before then they were just called the "3.8" and were significantly different in design and lacked the refinement and legendary reliability that the 3800 was known for.
Ahh..I know they had revisions on them over the years .Thank you.
The last few years of the Ciera and Century were excellent value for money. And you could get the Century in Pepto Bismol pink -- my paternal grandparent's friend had a shiny new pink one in 1993. And my maternal grandmother had two A bodies -- the first was a 85ish Celebrity with the quad headlights with a little bit of the grill underneath and the second was a Eurosport Celebrity with the composite headlights so must've been an 88 or 89.
Did Buick have a deal with Mary Kay or somthing? 😀. The last few years were good values. If you were not a trend setter and wanted a new car, it was probably perfect.
My 89 Olds Ciera International Series was super quick with the 3300V6. It was burgundy and had the gray lower ground effects package with the fog lights up front was super sharp and had the bucket seats and the shifter was on the floor. Loved it.
The International series were kind of neat
14:52 Is that an ashtray I see in the wayback seating area, where 90% of the occupants would have been kids? How times have changed. Anyway, one thing I miss about these cars, and many cars of that era, are the Mercedes-style door pulls. Nothing more relaxing than driving with one hand on the wheel and the other secured by those angled handles. Nowadays, if you want them, you actually have to buy a Mercedes, and not all models have them.
LOL...Yep...They had a ashtray back there!
Back in 1986 my family bought a Buick Century Estate Wagon. For whatever reason, my Dad ordered it with the carbureted 2.8L V6. I learned to drive in that car. It was very reliable and well built for a. GM car. A very typical but well made Buick interior. I'm reliving my past as I drive my family around in Buick's last wagon, a 2018 Regal TourX.
The TourX is pretty cool..A Opel Insignia.
Kudos to Forbes magazine for highlighting the badge- engineered bullshit. This wasn’t GM “Sweat the Details” or GM “Mark of Excellence”. This was GM “Revenge of the bean counter” and short-term profits and efficiency, over long term, brand value and distinctiveness, and we see how that turned out…
Let’s be very clear. These were generally not terrible products. But… They were always built to a price and cost and not market competitiveness. Sadly, the market in which these vehicles competed was ironically, against other GM, A body vehicles, and not the competition they intended to compete against. Nobody better than GM itself made the case for the redundancy of its own brands. And like the adage says, if you keep on telling people the same thing long enough, they will start to believe you. And they did. Pontiac and Oldsmobile don’t exist any longer. If we didn’t see the writing on the wall in previous General Motors history, we certainly see it by the time the A body platform and Forbes laid bare the schtick.
Yeah...GM was making similar models for 2 or more Divisions before, but it was getting ridiculous by the time the A Body's arrived. It was sad to see Oldsmobile,Pontiac,Plymouth, and Mercury go away, but when just about everything they offered was available with another Divisions badge on the back....What's the point? All of them made some Hail Mary plays before disappearing, but they didn't work.
The 2.5L Iron Duke was one of the roughest, most unrefined engines GM ever offered. Absolute junk. I speak from owning and experiencing multiple across the GM brands.
As a "import guy", I agree completely that the Ole Duke was far from the smoothest 4 banger you could buy then. The first GM 4 that actually impressed me was the Quad 4s.
It was pontiacs 2nd 4 cylinder...the first was the 1961 trophy 4...a 389 v8 cut in half.the iron duke was largely a purpose built block fitted with 301 v8 parts.
@@pl5624 I didn't know that! I assumed the 2.5 was just a new design when it launched for....77?
@@autochatter it was new...the 301 was engineered as a lighter more economical 350 pontiac at the same time.both engines featured flawed design combustion chambers that led to premature spark knock/ping.engine was about as advanced as chevys j car 1.8 liter 4...that engine was nicknamed the Junkyard engine because it too was old school ohv but not ohc design.
@pl5624 Thats interesting.Thank you! I guess it's still safe to say a Iron Duke was better than a early Vega 2.3?
The commercial you refer to was not about the A-bodies vs Lincoln. Rather the "full size" Cadillacs, Buicks, and Oldsmobiles and how much they were alike.
Yes that's true. I should have highlighted that specifically, but GMs clone obsession then wasn't limited to just the A Bodies! The ad felt to be in the spirit of what I was trying to convey.
Pops had a Pontiac 6000 regular 4 door sedan. He bought from the computer company my brother worked for. Salesmen car. Iron Duke and all that car lasted 16 years years
Couldn't have been any slower than the 85 Sentra wagon with a automatic my Dad had.
My dad had a Pontiac 6000 and I loved the European style headlights and digital dashboard. It also had amber rear turn signal lights. It looked totally euro but made in USA.
Yeah...Pontiac did some interesting stuff with their A Bodies!
Man these A bodies lived a surprisingly long life in the form of the Cutlass Ciera and Century...possibly due to the fact that the Buick/Olds versions were much better equipped and their engines being much smoother and more reliable for the most part. I'm sure GM was just as surprised as anyone with them being popular deep into the '90s. That 3.3 3300 v6 was a hell of a little engine, based on the 3800, and is probably the best overall engine ever placed into the A body.
Just think we are seeing clone cookie cutter crossovers now where one looks like every other and if it weren't for a badge you would never know what it is. At least these A-body cars were all made by the same parent company. When I lost my job back in 2003 and I had to give up my newer car it was a light blue 1993 Ciera (my second car I bought in 2000) with the bullet proof 3300 V6 and THM 125C transmission that got me reliably through it up until my new job in 2005. That car never left me stranded, had 111K miles when I bought it and over 200K when I traded it in and was still running good and mostly rust free. My long time friend still drives several A-body wagons and they give great utility. These were a best kept secret when one needed a cheap reliable car as long as you got one that wasn't badly rusted underneath. The 1982-83's were best avoided along with any 82-85 Century or Ciera equipped with the 3.0 liter carbureted Buick V6. All the other engines these used including the Tech IV, 2.8/3.1 Chevy V6, 3300 and 3.8 liter Buick V6 were all good mills
They were great used car bargains by the 90s for reasons you cited!
My 1985 and my 1989 Cieras had the 2.5L Iron Duke. Excellent engine. Abused both cars are couldn't hurt them. 1988 Celebrity CL Eurosport coupe had 2.8L .... I hated the 2.8. Car died at only 95k
Just found out about your channel. Pretty Good stuff!!
Thank you! I've known about it a bit longer myself...LOL.
I always wanted a Celebrity Eurosport VR with those nice front and rear effects. I used to see a White one around here but that’s been some time ago.
Enjoying all of your reviews on here. Great history and details of vehicles I remember well. Have you thought about an El Camino & Ranchero video? I had a 77 Ranchero with a 351. Nice vehicle but it did enjoy its gasoline ⛽️ lol
@ChadQuick270W Thank you for taking a tour of my channel! Yes...I do want to do both of those vehicles actually. My friend had a 79 LTD II, which would have been similar to your Ranchero. The VR Eurosports were rare..Ive only seen one or two in person, and that was when they were late model cars.
Coil packs on them were marginal at best. Fuel pumps ran about 30k each and half the injectors on the 38 hundred clogged at the same time, about 150k. I gave mine away instead of putting 4 injectors in at like 240 a pop, a week before a hurricane and getting laid-off, kinda f'd myself.
I took it (a 91' 6000 LE) out into sand dunes and after getting stuck, I started making it a superleggera with a Sawzall till it was more like a 5000. That's why I gave it away, things like the bumpers were just skins, backseat gone, carpet gone, heat and ac... gone-ski. Not quite stripped, but f'd-up.
Wow..Made a dune buggy out of a Goolie!
It seems the styling of Malaise era cars is as uninspired as their power trains.
Back in the day I had the use of a Cierra Brougham sedan on a road trip - where I spent maybe 10-12 hours as the driver. It wasn't bad - very 'cushy' and you certainly didn't want to push it at all (!) - even a sweeper would defeat the front end and the tall sidewall tires did not help. However, it was plush, plush, plush inside (loaded) and I can see why a certain demographic would have have loved these, especially as cars became more euro and less typically American. At half the price it was 2/3's or maybe even 3/4's of the new fwd 98 content - why not?
I definately prefer a sportier feeling car personally, but yeah I know some prefer a cushy Barco lounger with a gas pedal.
I appreciate that you mention the value in todays money
Thanks...I do that in about every video. I like it too because I hear people all the time saying things like..."Cars are so expensive now!" But it's not always the case. Often times I found put they are actually less now LOL.
Tell me this guy doesn't sound like Gerald McCraney ( Major dad). Anyway I liked this video 👍
I guess there's worse people I could be compared too LOL. I still wish I sounded like Patrick Warburton...God he's funny.
I had owned one of each of the A cars at one point back in the 90s. They were great cheap, disposable cars.
Collected the whole set? Nice! Yeah...Great used car bargains they were by that time.
My first car was an 84 6000 STE. Had 186k on it when I got it and it never let me down. It had some rust at the bottoms of the doors, the the clear coat was non existent, the rear shocks were dead, high beams didn’t work and the rotors were terribly warped. Still look back fondly.
I think alot of peoples first car is full of nostalgia.....And yours had a lot of "character" to boot!
My parents had a 1986 Chevy Celebrity but it was totaled not long after. Then my Dad bought a 1989 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera International Series that lasted until 1995 has it was totaled on Boxing Day on our way to my Aunts house during a snow and ice storm, We hit black ice and spun into the opposite lane and was T-Boned by a Chevy Cavalier. We were all fine and replaced it with a Cutlass Supreme.
Well...Glad yall were OK.
The multi-port injected 2.8 was a good runner that probably helped the nice sales numbers in 86. The 6000 ste was the only A body to have 4 wheel disc brakes and the AWD used a torque tube to drive the rear wheel instead of a typical driveshaft.
Nice! Didn't know about the torque tube! 86 seemed like a strong sales year overall. Maybe everyone just had to have a third brake light? 😊
A passernger viewing the horizontal speedo in the later 6000's will think you're doing like 15 over. I failed 3 driving tests in a row for speeding as a teen and arguing about it. On the 4th I told the guy b4 we got in and he leaned over, saw I wasn't fulla 💩 and I finally passed.
When Poniac said "We build excitement", they meant it!
I had a 1988 oldsmobile cutlass ciera 90th anniversary edition with the 2.8 efi and a 93 Olds cutlass with the 3.3. Really good cars just not much to look at.
Yeah..The car valets were probably not fighting to park those LOL.
Great chatter. I think out of all, I’d take the Ciera. Crazy out of all the A-bodies, I only see those tooling around town in this area. And yep, it was long-in-the-tooth by the time it ended production.
Thanks Rob! I don't have a favorite persay, but the Pontiac ones I thought were kinda cool.
I just stumbled upon your channel- Great stuff!
Thanks!
Thank you! I love when people "wander" in LOL.
Too bad GM went through the trouble with the 3.0.... I was never a fan of that motor and a shame they based it off the 3.8... A better way to go would have been to just put the 3.8 in the 1st place and a much better engine.
Yeah..I heard the 3.0 version wasn't great.
Owned an 87 Pontiac 6000 S/E. Looked like the STE, but didn't have all of the electronic goodies. Wife wrecked it in a snowstorm. I put a 6000 LE front clip on it and drove it until the transmission died. Was a decent car, not anything special
Good description of them overall I'd say!
Out of the A Body GMs the 1985 Chevrolet Celebrity was probably the most attractive looking one. My Dad had a Grey on Grey one growing up in the early 90s. Was a very nice car since he couldn't afford a new Car then!
I delivered pizza in my 96 cutlass Cierra. It was a tough reliable car albeit boring old ladyish
They were great cheap used cars.
Man great minds think alike, I was just thinking about A bodies and BOOM you make a video!😂😂😂 👍🏾
I've been working on this device that reads the minds of Subscribers. 😀 Hope you enjoyed the vid!!!!!
Ugh I hate badge engineering. I know it saves money but it's just so lazy.
Yeah...It was pretty bad then!
Currently driving a winter beater 92 century wagon. Can't wait to see this thing get crushed in the spring.
Well I hope she makes it!
Thank you for the video. I liked the footage of the A Bodies and the footage of the digital gauges on the Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick versions. These cars were cash cows for GM as they made their money off them. A Ciera Brougham with digital gauges at the 3.8 liter V6 would be grand. I think the Pontiac 6000 STE should have offered the 3.8 liter V6. The 6000 STE was close to a Pontiac Bonneville SSE in 1988-1991 in terms of features as they used the same seats and steering wheel controls among other things. The 6000 STE was supposed to be a Euro sedan. They sold them in Japan. The STE became a Grand Prix by 1990.The Ciera sold well in Mexico as the Cutlass with no Oldsmobile name/badge. You can find them here on You Tube as Chevrolet Cutlass. They sold the Century in Mexico too. They did make changes to the interiors on the Oldsmobile and Buick versions in Mexico. They offered it with a manual transmission as well( the Oldsmobile) in Mexico. The situation got interesting as you had the G Bodies on one side up until 1987-1988 then the later W Bodies on the other side 1988-1996. That is where it got confusing. The 1997 Cutlass/Cutlibu was a sad replacement for the Ciera. The marketing and missions were indeed messed up. I recall the Celebrity Classic trim with a padded top, the Ciera XC coupe, the Ciera ES( before GT), The Holiday coupe Ciera, the Pontiac 6000 LE coupe with the padded top as well. I did like they offered the 3300 V6 based of the 3800 V6. That was a solid engine. The A Bodies served their purpose indeed. Thank you again.
I should have consulted you personally before making this one! Your GM knowledge always impresses me!
@@autochatter Thank you. your comment is appreciated. I do not know everything about GM and cars. I just learned and studied the industry over time. You can find a lot of the information in videos on You Tube and searching online. I have always been curious about the industry. There was also a 6000 S/E version and the Ciera GT version became the Ciera International Series. In Mexico it was Cutlass Eurosport. You are doing a great job with your channel. You come up with good topics and interesting videos.
@OLDS98 Well if this vid passed your GM "sniff test", it makes me feel better! Thanks for the props! I didn't highlight every trim or special edition....because I try to limit vid lengths to a degree.
@@autochatter You are most welcome.
I had an 87 Celebrity.. Very comfortable car!!
They did have a good ride. The Buick and Olds ones were even softer
celebrity century and cutlass ciera my favorite cars yes love 6000 sorry i left them out
Cool! Well I hope you enjoyed the vid!
Man, the celebrity eorusport wagon on bbs wheels with a nice stans.
Yeah it looked good!
Great! Love the level of detail. Thanks for sharing this with us!
Thanks! I hope the "level of detail" is to your satisfaction! Hard to find a balance of what's enough...or what's too much LOL. I
@@autochatter it was spot on!! Love how you gave the year-by-year changes. I think you nailed it!!
@RetroTechChris I appreciate it! I'm sure I glazed over some bits like a ashtray modification in 87, but you have to pick your battles! 😆
Soooo we gonna act like he don't sound like Cleveland 🤣🤣
Someone else has said I sound like Major Dad...Weird LOL.
Owned a 93 Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera sedan. It got totaled in accident two years after i bought it. It only had 163000 miles. 😊
They were great used bargains..Resale wasn't the greatest and alot were originally owned by older folks who either didn't drive it much and/or didn't beat on them.
It marked the beginning of GMs slide into boring rental fleet cars and embracing the disposable car philosophy. They handed the sedan marked to the Japanese. Today they make some great looking SUVs, cool colors and have top notch advertising agencies but they’re still pushing junk out the door.
Reading the other comments I see "mediocre" and "decent" which sums these up pretty well. A GF had one of the Chevy's, rather ragged at that point but it did the job of an in-town commuter reliably. Only a few variants had anything exciting about them, the rest were people haulers and pretty good at that job with the aim more toward economy than performance. They were also pretty comfortable cars for four as long as the back-seaters weren't beyond average adult size. Build quality was marginal with trim and interior door parts seeing the cheap plastic break or fail sooner than it should have. Clone cars for sure, and I think this was the point where people came to realize that all along most of the higher-end GM brands and models were essentially over-priced fancified Chevy's at heart. Not bad cars at all, just kind of mundane, which if the truth be told is exactly what a lot of people need in a car.
You summed them up well. I think Pontiac attempted to give them the most sporty pizzazz...
but I doubt it led to many Audi or BMW conquest sales. I take it there was no funny business with the captions this time? 😂
@@autochatter Just the usual misspelling and word butchering this time. Pontiac was aimed at a younger market demographic who wanted a bit of performance with their coffee. Base models were about the same, upgrades were better. GM had so many brands they could hit closer to any demographic while the other big 2 had to do that with 3 brands. I like Buick but they should have kept Pontiac and dumped Buick and Olds; Pontiac always had a more interesting and more varied model line-up.
@P_RO_ Yeah...I wish Pontiac was still here too. I've read that GM wanted to keep Pontiac around the time of the Bankruptcy and Goverment Bailout ( with stipulations in effect). Buick was kept because it was big in China. Pontiac was really starting to come around towards the end, but too little and too late.
@@autochatter The Chinese affinity for Buick is what kept GM alive. They love the ride qualities and the prestige of owning a "premium" car. When beancounters run things, bad things happen and dreams fade away. This is what kills industry but it's the model followed in most of the world now.
Unfortunate rust issues. The 2.8 FI had some giddyup.
I had an '85 Olds Cutlass Ciera, it rode so nice but it was from Illinois and rusted out so I had to get rid of it.
I dont think any car was immune from the rust belt! I'm from Eastern NC and rust wasn't a problem for the most part, so I saw these things regularly on the road for a long time.
Send in the clones. Excellent!
Just trying to make it a bit more fun!
I had an 86 Camaro with the 2.8L which I affectionately named the lead slug. It was an unimpressive motor to say the least!
Imagine how slow a 85 Camaro with the 2.5 Iron Duke 4 was LOL.
I would definitely drive any one of the wagons. They long since rusted away in my area.
Maybe I missed it, but no mention of 86 Century Gran Sport? That was the coolest of A body cars.
Dang it...Forgot about that one..86 was the only year and about 1000 made. Guess it was like a T Type but all in a Grand National Type paint scheme.
I was going to mention the GS too.
It was like a baby Grand National without the turbo.
I was lucky to get my hands on one years ago.
@FrankTimms-cs5hl I thought the GS looked cool, but it was definatley in the shadow of the Grand National.
I had to change it to 1.25 speed, and then it was doable~ I was going to sleep~
Lol..Whatever works
excellent video content, i remember the 2.5L iron duke very well....
Thank you!
The 6000STE was the sedan to have. It was the first A-body car to get antilock brakes. The wagons are absolutely awesome.
That Chevy Eurosport VR wagon looked cooler to me, but I liked the STE too.
@@autochatter I have seen a Celebrity Eurosport before. I have never seen a Celebrity Eurosport VR wagon ever. Sounds interesting, though.
@johnnymason2460 I remember seeing one or two of the sedans at a car show years ago. I didn't even know they made wagon versions untill I made this.
Other than many, many manifold absolute pressure sensor failures and morning sickness, these cars were positively mediocre. 😂 All kidding aside, the Oldsmobile was a very handsome car from the mid eighties onward.
Oh they still had their share of issues LOL.....But compared to early X Cars? Way better!
@@autochatter good point.
You are absolutely killing it man, I'm so happy for you. Thank you for taking the time to make these videos:)
Thanks Hawk! I loved your Cop car vid last week!
@@autochatter Thank you! What was your pick for the poll?
@@GreenHawkDrive The Galaxie.
Right on man!@@autochatter
Great show 😊 ! I call the GM A body cars lol the new and improved version of the X cars that GM introduced in 1980 . These A bodies were slightly more upscale and a bit larger vehicles. I saw tons of Cutlass Ciera and Celebrities growing up in the 80s . Thx again Auto Chatter for taking back in my youth . 😊
Thank you! Yeah...It was the better X Car lol I think the N bodies technically replaced them ( Grand Am)
@@autochatter One request can you do a segment on GM's downsized B series full-sized RWD cars in the future .
@@andregonsalvez9244 Of course!
Those cars were EVERYWHERE until the Taurus came out
@joedavenport5293 They were. The Taurus definately got the jump on the Lumina!
The V6 engine in the Celebrity Eurosport was a good car. The 2 5 Iron duke was garbage!
Yeah....the 6 cylinder would have been the way to go...Especially for a car that size.
Maybe for the refinement aspect but they were long lasting reliable engines that got decent mileage. We saw a ton of them with 100-200K still running strong at the auctions and sold at our dealer during the 90's and early 00's.
The valet commercial was in reference to the 98, Electra and the Cadillac and did not refer in any way to the A body intermediates, please keep to the vehicles that are being discussed or make a more valid digression.
I should have clarified the commercial was not about the A Body, but GM was doing it with other models at the time too. I felt including it there was relevant as everyone was seeing the badge engineering getting out of hand.
@@autochatter That is definitely a granted! I just wish to make a point to those that were not around at that time. And yes GM definitely made a blunder at the time by such obvious badge engineering.
@@PaulHerman-v2m I agree!
Lol Jimny
As always, great video!
Thanks! Was a fun one to do!
Congratulations on so many subs.
Thank you!
The title for the video is so fitting!
It was either this or send in the clones LOL.
Nice overview
Thank you!
Which one was your favorite?
Oh...The Pontiac 6000 or the Chevy Eurosport VR.
The Cutlass Ciera Holiday Coupe (8:00).
Looks like a cute Cadillac Coupe de Ville...
@@Romiman1 It kinda did!
The end of the run were good cheap cars. I had a 1996 Ciera with the 3.1L V6 I used as a winter car until it completely rusted out a few years ago. I bought it at auction for the same price I sold it for and got nearly 60k (90k-150k) miles out of it. It never left me stranded, even with the things that failed during my time owning it: the water pump, serpentine belt tensioner, alternator, radiator, and one of the rear drum brake actuators. I nearly drove the wheels off it, the rear beam axle was only just barely held on and the gas tank couldn't be filled more than 1/4 full by the time I was done with it.
Yeah...I'm sure my hometown still has some Buick and Olds ones running around. Likely because the first owners were older and didn't run them into the ground.
These with the V6 could take a beating. They would run like crap but they kept going and going and going.
They are unsung heroes for the working class.
The Energizer Bunny of Domestics?
80s and 90s GM cars ran badly for longer than other cars ran at all
Don’t forget the Buick 2 door specialty model , the 1986. gran sport! Had one over 10 yrs, very much miss that car. Enjoyed the vid !
I should have mentioned the Gran Sport! My apologies! Thanks for the props!
I had 3 A bodies. 88 6000LE, 81 and 86 International Cierra. Very well made cars that never gave me any big issues.
Nice! I never owned a A Body myself. Did have a 89 Lesabre with a 3800 for about a year. It was solid. Also cool points for having a "Goulie"
The 6000's front & rear clip was...hideous. And all the A-bodies had embarrassing interiors (like *every* GM from the 70s through the 2000s.)
They had a little we tried too hard about them yes LOL.
18:32 - With sales numbers like that, GM was shameless enough that they probably would have kept selling the Ciera if not for government regulations making the car obsolete.
@@doug6191 I suspect updated side impact standards for 97 was one reason they killed them.
Had an 87 Pontiac 6000 LTE 2.8L that thing was bulletproof drove it over 300k miles before I sold it
Nice!