Can't believe this argument even outlived Toriyama. I promise you Christ himself will return and dudes will STILL be arguing about this. God himself is the only one who can put this to an end 😂
@@martinwunder2265Yea but it seems like Seth was genuinely becoming a better person if Chuck and Clyde wanted to be his friend again. He also said in keemstars stream that he was getting help
Logic wise, it only makes sense for Kid Buu to be stronger. Super Buu has the same makeup as Fat Buu, so therefore Super gets the same power nerf from the Kai’s. How would the Kai’s nerf make super Buu stronger than a form where he has no restraints at all.
They need Ultimate Gohan to go against Super Buu. Buutenks literally manhandle Ultimate Gohan. Buuhan literally violated Vegeta and Goku, they need to resort to Vegito. How in the world the mindless Kid Buu, who they can took turn fighting, stronger than any of this form?
Yall do remember goku and vegeta were offered fusion for kidd buu and denied it because saiyan pride and overconfidence? This are the same 2 saiyans that flat out said "Oh yeah he's small now? Oh he ain't shit" and then proceeded to get absolutely manhandled and required plot, sacrifice and nearly a universal spirit bomb to put Kid buu down.
Kid buu is uncontrollable and very unpredictable nobody knows what he’s gonna do next, the reason why goku and vegeta took turn fighting kid buu was because of their sayain pride they both wanted a piece of kid buu mind you both goku and vegeta are the same guys who had gotten zenkai boost from fighting buuhan and other version of bubu but yet kid bubu was still cooking both of them, goku only managed to take kid buu spirit bomb because it was infused with other fighters ki’s who had also fought super buu. If it wasn’t for the zenkai both goku and vegeta had gotten it kid bubu would’ve cooked even more then he was doing in the anime not even the spirit would’ve had killed him
I find it so funny that this discussion over if character A (gohan buu) or B (kid buu) is stronger lasted this long considering there literally the same character. My take has always been "well the anime and the databooks say kid buu is stronger, so the instance you take any information from either of these as canon, the entire argument is pointless.". If you wanna be a manga pureist then i guess you could argue about it, but it's still funny cause...well they are effectivley the same character. Also "we are professionals [at power scaling fictional characters]" made me laugh so hard
these are the best type of vs videos. when the characters have competent arguments on both sides and you guys explained them really well. just might be professional power scalers lmao
Theres a reason why Gohan and Gotenks wasnt present during the Kid Buu fight. Gotenks would struggle to defeat him but Gohan would destroy him. If you think Buuhan is weaker than Kid Buu you’re an idiot
Goku confirms that Gohan's ki wasn't enough to take Kid Buu down during the super spirit bomb and he also thinks that he would need Gohan and Gotenks to join them to jump Kid Buu in hopes of taking him down. Not to mention in the anime there's way too much evidence and way too many statements for Kid Buu being the strongest after Goku already fought pretty much all of the Buus.
@@aeida6140on top of that Goku was very obviously putting his own power into question cause when buu pushed it back he was able to defeat him with the same spirit bomb as a super saiyan.
@@fidelgames Kid Buu in both the manga and anime struggled to beat Good Buu, who got bodied by Evil Buu. Stop blindly believing every dialogue and statement without first validating them. Gohan 's ki wasn't enough to completely eradicated Kid Buu's body, and also Gohan clearly didn't give all of his energy since the size of the spirit bomb wasn't that big when compared to later on when the regular citizens of the earth fueled the spiritbomb, which means either Gohan didn't give all his ki or its a different type of energy entirely.
@@aeida6140 And what is Ki? It's literally classified and used interchangeably as spiritual energy. This is nothing new. Multiple times do they interchange Ki and Genki. And in the context of the Super Spirit Bomb its literally talking about Ki. It never talks about spiritual energy and only uses Ki.
@@YourboyStinkthe power levels are absolutely not the problem with the buu arc lmfao The problems are like... almost everything else. Like how goten/gotenks is handled, the constant weird mistakes from the characters, super saiyan 3 being so obviously not planned out that it hurts, etc. There are good moments in the arc tho and it is fun, so I let it slide.
It’s clearly not hard. Anime clearly isn’t consistent. SSJ2 vegeta beats ssj3 gotenks ( in buu’s body) Then he gets destroyed by kid buu Mr Buu does better against kid buu than ssj2 vegeta Mr buu ( is weaker than his normal fat buu self). Unless you somehow believe Super buu is weaker than Fat buu. This doesnt make sense. So anime should be taken with a grain of salt. Kid buu is weaker than Super buu
Akira Toriyama has always put the strongest version character at the end of the arc, furthermore, in the manga, there's a scene where Goku watches Super Buu become KID Buu and says out loud "uhhh why is his ki getting bigger?" With Vegeta present. It's power scaling inconsistency at its finest, but the show makes it very clear that KID Buu is the strongest
@@jyanbeinah brody kid buu is boxing a tired goku and vegeta and can’t finish them off😂😂 buuhan was fighting the goat vegito. Kid buu wouldn’t last a second
@th4tevilburrito they got their energy back before they fought. Theres so much more evidence to show Kid buu>Buuhan Not only that but Goku straight up says he's going ALL OUT on kid buu and he can't beat him even with that
Buuhan >>>> Buutenks >>> Buucolo > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku (all out) ~= Kid Buu > SSJ3 Goku (not going all out from the start). The only things that point to Kid Buu being stronger are filler episodes in the anime that are not mentioned before or after they happen in any way (in some cases directly contradicted by canon events before and after) and misunderstood, mistranslated, or literally photoshopped (Kanzenshuu example) statements that don't actually follow feats or logic from what actually happens. Everything else points to Super Buu base being stronger than Kid Buu, making Buuhan many, many times more powerful than Kid Buu.
Typical, they say that they are translation errors because it is the best excuse they have, if Goku has shown after the fusion in repeated ways that he is stronger than before, of course he is, it is not incoherent, it is already something that is being built Kid Buu > Buuhan (Anime) Buuhan > Kid Buu (Manga)
When Goku and Vegeta go inside Majin Buu to free everyone, and realize Majin Buu has reverted back to regular Super Buu, Goku says that if they go out now Super Buu will kill them both because he is way stronger. As in, Super Saiyan 3 Goku would get killed by Super Buu. Anything with Goku fighting any variant of Super Buu was anime only filler.
@@erikdavis1646 Exactly, people distort a lot of things to guarantee Kid Buu's position, even the anime itself places Kid Buu below Vegetto, although in the logic of the anime's filler and Goku's speech, Kid Buu was superior to all Buu forms, implying that Kid Buu can defeat Vegetto.
Good to see ya collabing with Chuck pretty cool and I'm loving your guys opinions and the banter it's good to hear friends go back and forth with a good friendly debate good content guys!! You'll be back at the top in no time Seth
One thing kid buu proponents have to answer is this, why would Buu need and spam the absorbing ability if it's so azs that it makes him weaker? Why not just spit the opponent out once he beats them?
This is so dumb and the kid buu glazers won't like this but fuck it... Super Buu is seen fighting fusions and a gohan that exceeds the power of the current ssj3 and kid buu blows up earth and fights goku and vegeta and the only reason y'all say he's the most powerful is because of some dumb ass bogus statement in the manga being the most powerful/ dangerous when the series clearly isn't showing that lol
No I say kid buu is stronger because he took zero combat damage against a ssj3 and goku stated it 3 separate times that he was doing absolutely nothing to kid buu (english) , then the original japanese says kid buu is the "strongest" version of buu , then we have creditable guide book's that say buu's pure form is the most dangerous version of buu. (which is kid buu)
@@davidgummo3024 Kid Buu took damage. He regenerated from those damage. He cannot regenerate if he is not damaged. Look at Buutenks Vs Gohan, in that fight Buutenks is not damaged. Kid Buu fought evenly with SSJ3 Goku. SSJ3 Goku is too scared to fight Buuhan. Therefore Buuhan>KId Buu.
It's really funny how people still debate the obvious, Buuhan was always the strongest, that's not a debate, most of the guides are based on anime, and most of the arguments of Kid Buu's glazers are due to distorted context If Kid Buu is the strongest, Goku is stronger than Vegetto! I don't know where people insist that Goku and Vegeta randomly got stronger, bro, they haven't received zenkai since the Freeza saga. Shin is the king of allegations because throughout the saga he overestimated any opponent, including the fact that he has a specific trauma due to Kid Buu, but that doesn't mean that what he says is taken seriously. Koyama was scolded for responding as if he were the official author of the franchise, so he decided not to talk about these things (and he put it as "I think so" this is not a certainty, it is a possibility). The Genkidama argument is disgusting because the role of the attack is to take a piece of energy from living beings, not to take everything, including the Genkidama is for the people of Earth to cooperate, not only the Z fighters Trunks in the Time Chamber mentions to Goten that Gotenks in base form could take on Fat Buu, and let's remember that for them Super Buu was just Buu who grew muscles, even though Piccolo says that his power was greater than that of Fat Buu, therefore Gotenks ssj post-time chamber > Goku ssj3 > Fat Buu Kibitoshin talking about the absorptions is nothing more than a distortion of the context because he was referring to the absorption giving Buu a heart, that is, in the context of holding on and not in the context of power. Vegeta's statement is just between him and Goku. And the anime has many inconsistencies along with self-contradictions, the manga makes it very clear how much the anime creates assumptions, and finally, manga ≠ anime!
@@taigaseji Goku in the anime says that Kid Buu would be too little for Vegetto and there are still people who put Goku and Vegeta at that time above him.
Before I watch this... Super Buu (Buuhan) > Kid Buu. The same ssj3 Goku who stated he could've already defeated Buu if it wasn't for him wanting to share the fun is the same ssj3 Goku who didn't even compete with Buuhan. Now to see our greatest power scalers debate this and I'll be back after hearing the results. Thank you for your work Seth. Review: Gracious I was a dumbass. Buuhan's still stronger, but damn. My initial statement reeked of incompetence. I claimed Goku was the same yet he became stronger after the fusion, and that already made my argument shaky. After watching this video, I still believe Buuhan is stronger than Kid Buu, but now I can more accurately debate my claim even against the Kid Buu arguments and I was aware of prior to this video. Before then I would not have been able to debate it if needed without regurgitating the same 3 talking points: (1) Buuhan is of a different category than the other 4 Buus (Good, Evil, Super, and Kid). This pretty much evaporates the idea of Kid Buu being stronger by the subtitles. (2) Kid Buu was squaring up with ssj3 Goku, but they desperately needed a fusion to compete with Buuhan (A narrative argument to squash the debate). This can be conflicted because (with my new knowledge) understanding that Goku is stronger and more knowledgeable after Fusion, maybe that same Goku could've competed with Buuhan. (3) Buuhan is not just a raw power universal threat, but because of Gohan and Piccolo's knowledge this may affect or amplify his combat and better amplify his abilities. This is just an argument I made without actual evidence to back it but maybe someone like Seth could add more substance and context in the realm of knowledge being powerful. Without the knowledge I had before watching the video I would still be on the left side of the tipping IQ scale. Yet again, Seth and Chuck thank you both for your work.
I do like that you bring up the fused minds likely learning from each other. Fusion characters in general seem to benefit from two minds manipulating their ki, as evidenced by their techniques. Seems reasonable that once separated they dont just forget everything and remain unchanged
@@alexdeghost2729no he wasn’t he was the most dangerous not strongest. They said he was getting stronger when he swole up as Super Buu then he transformed into Kid Buu after expelling all absorbed beings
Shin felt the ki of every Boo yet was only ever terrified of Kid Boo's despite knowing Gohan and Gotenks were still viable combatants against him. He never showed this blatant fear over any other Boo and even felt confident that he could help fight against Bootenks ontop of the fact that he celebrated when Boohan reverted back to Super Boo so there would be no reason for him to only have complete fear for Kid Boo if he's weaker than the aforementioned Boo's. Vegeta stated he wanted to kill Mr. Boo out of concern that he would give rise to Kid Boo again and that they might all truly die if that happens meaning he doesn't believe anyone is stronger than Kid Boo or that they could pull off a miracle spirit bomb a second time. Goku says that had Hercule and Mr. Boo not helped, Kid Boo would've killed everyone in the universe which the Daizenshuu and DBS ch1 also reiterate and that they would have to train hard to be able to beat Kid Boo in the future. In Ch1 of DBS, Goku is shown image training against Frieza and Cell in their strongest forms and then Kid Boo. Whats being conveyed here is that Kid Boo is the strongest Boo which is why Goku is training against him instead of Super Boo and his variations which is consistent with the narrative behind Goku's desire to rematch Kid Boo. Goku has never once settled for fighting the weakest of anything and is notorious for being dismissive of opponents that arent powerful so the idea that Goku would settle for wanting to rematch one of the weakest Boo's is nonsensical and out of character. The Daizenshuu even points out how Goku "continues to always seek the strongest" and that he "waited for Kid Boo's reincarnate above all else" which are just more blatant indications that Kid Boo was the strongest.
@@Profitin Shin has trauma from Kid Buu, and Gohan, Goten and Trunks were unconscious, his fear was simply Kid Buu spamming destruction around, because he is the most dangerous and emotionless version of the villain. Kibitoshin was just relieved because without the absorption it would give them more chances to win, and seriously? Saying that Kibitoshin was confident against Buutenks and not against Kid Buu does not prove anything, especially because he believed that the fusion would give a considerable increase, but Old Kaioshin refutes him saying that fusion did not increase its power at all. Vegeta wanted to kill Fat Buu because he was afraid that Buu would get angry and things would happen again, he even refers to monsters in the plural, not specifically, and Vegeta himself knew that he had no chance with any Buu That's an exaggeration on your part, yes, Mr. Satan and Fat Buu contributed to the victory, but let's remember that if it weren't for Mr. Satan, Goku wouldn't have received enough energy to finish the Genkidama, and if it weren't for Fat Buu, besides Vegeta being killed eternally, Kid Buu would kill Goku before finishing the Genkidama, and about the idea of universal Genkidama, it is something varied because the guides mention that it was the energy of the entire universe, but in the manga, the only ones who cooperated were planet Earth, planet Namek and a part of the Other World In Super, Goku is fighting Kid Buu only in ssj, and let's remember that canonically, Goku only fought Fat Buu and Kid Buu individually, and also Goku himself later mentions that not even Vegetto would beat Bills, which adds that Goku is not above Vegetto, and let's remember that Vegetto was born to face who? Buuhan! And Daizenshuu implicitly mentions that base Vegetto wouldn't be enough to defeat Buuhan. "Goku seeks for the strongest" was never about Kid Buu, as Goku commented to Vegeta in the last chapters of the manga, Uub had the same potential as Kid Buu, and even so, Goku only faced the boy in base form, and in the last pages, Vegeta himself reveals that Goku not only wanted to have a disciple, but to have the chance to fight someone with incredible potential. You saying that Goku only did this because of Kid Buu is pointless because Goku has always prioritized a fair fight, even Vegeta hates the idea of facing someone who depends on others to get stronger. Goku himself told Bills that he hated the way he achieved the power of Super Saiyan God with help instead of learning on his own. Kid Buu was different to Goku because he was strong without relying on other means, and this makes sense when on the page before Kid Buu's finale, Goku praises him for fighting individually.
@@Jsipki265 "gave all" Excuse me? Do you understand the concept of Genkidama? The attack simply consists of taking a piece of energy from each living being, not everything, and where did this idea come from that Genkidama is created with the energy of a few individuals? Vegeta makes it very clear that Earth was supposed to cooperate, Goku just comments that he only received energy from his group, I don't know when this nonsense became an argument!
@@gogettoblue5357 I do understand that dickwad that’s a significant portion of their ki/lifeforce. Ki is life energy at least a part of it. Even if everyone powered up to their maximum that’s still would’ve not been enough to fuel the spirit bomb they needed the earthlings ki as well.
@@gogettoblue5357energy from simple grass was able to hurt vegeta and energy given in spirit bomb is exponetial.Spirit bomb was stated to be strongest energy ever on panel. you understand spirit bomb yourself.
"Isnt his ki increasing" does tho. Kaioshin saying having the daikaio inside buu weakens and tames him does as well. Most dangerous on its own does not necessarily mean strongest, but it definitely does not imply weaker
@@PiperAtDawn-r7i Yeah, the man that was worried about Vegeta's chances against Pui Pui made a comment about Kid Buu. In the meantime, Goku was noticing him getting weaker. "Hey, isn't he getting weaker?"
@Dracogame wow confident and wrong. Read the manga goku is the one who says isn't his ki getting stronger. Shin is the one that explains after that scene that absorbing the kais, notice the plural, made him weaker.
It really depends on what do you mean by "the truth". For me, I am using the manga canon or continuity here as that is one that best represents Toriyama's original vision and intend. The anime is an adaptation of the original manga. It will usually take main story beats and then add things to it. If you follow the main story beats you will find that Buuhan is the strongest even in the anime. But then you have statements in the anime that seemingly contradicts the story beats. Why did that happened? Because the main story beats from the manga show is that Buuhan is the strongest. But the anime due to some reasons (probably to hype up the last battle for the kids) added in some hype statements that are NOT in the manga to hype up the battle. The statements resulted in confusion among the audiences. Intelligent audiences can feel that something is wrong. Less intelligent audiences cannot even tell that Buuhan is the strongest from the story beats and narrative and since statements are the easiest to digest they just eat them up without thinking. Professionals or writers who know how the anime companies works straight away know what is up, the animation studio adapted the main narrative but add in their OWN hype statements that is not in the manga. Hence the anime is “polluted” with fillers and statements that are NOT IN THE MANGA. So we cannot use anime for the debate here if you are talking about the original intention of Akira Toriyama. There is a chance some of the writers of the anime intended Kid Buu to be the strongest, but they cannot show it in a convincing way due to reasons like bad writing, budget and deadline constrains. If you are the type that thinks the truth is based on the intend of the anime writer, then you might have to do some investigative journalism to get more evidence to support that. If you are the type that thinks the truth is based on the interpretation of the anime by the audience (Death of the Author) then this debate will probably never end. There are evidences that support both sides. No matter what the writing is just bad and confusing in the anime. If you are the manga purist, then Kid Buu is certainly not the strongest based on power scaling and Authorial Intend Analysis.
This is actually really good logic. I think the problem is that I highly doubt that Akira Toryiama intended for Super Buu to be the strongest, like, he doesn't plan this stuff ahead, it makes sense for the last villain to be the strongest doesn't it? I honestly do feel you have to purposefully misread the text to come to the conclusion that Super Buu is stronger. Like Buuhan is debatable, but definitely not Super Buu. Even if he's technically more stronger (which isn't a real thing since these are made up characters who's power levels change all the time in inconsistent manners), it wouldn't make any sense thematically. The anime didn't change that, it simply amplified that thematic consistency with statements, like there's anime filler that was written entirely by Akira Toryiama you know, the anime and manga aren't as seperate as you might think, even if Akira Toriyama isn't 100% in control of everything, that never was the case anyways due to his manga editors/producers. So yeah, there is not real "truth" to this, mainly because it doesn't actually matter. But if you want to debate it anyways, the best answer is Buuhan > Kid Buu > Super Buu. Some people will argue that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan, its possible, just not that likely. "Strongest Buu" doesn't necessarily include Buuhan. But the anime seems to imply that SSJ3 Goku got stronger since before despite nothing happening to facilitate that. There's no way to tell any of this for sure, so that's why its always up in the air since you can argue it either way...simply because... It was never directly stated anywhere who was stronger. That is all...I think anyways...
By that logic, that means Fat Buu is also a fusion due to having South Kai in him. This means the statement of "Kid Buu is the strongest Buu" now has no meaning. Which begs the question of why it was said in the first place...
@Alienrun True. I mean buff buu, fat buu, buuccolo, Buutenks and Buuhan were all achieved the same way. Why are they not all considered buu fusions? Only super buu was achieved through eating someone and evil buu was made through...splitting? Which would almost be similar to separation...which might make them coming back together as super buu a...fusion?..... xD
So is the lore that all the dudes that sat on the sideline while Seth was being cancelled are now back to leech now that he’s back up? Someone fill me in
Good lord this debate is getting so stale. You guys need to STOP blindly believing every statement without having it being validated, or else statements like Temari blowing away the universe or Madara destroying everything in the universe needs to be believed. And the thing that seriously freaking annoys the hell out of me is people continue to ignore the elephant in the room EVERY SINGLE TIME! In both the manga AND ANIME, Good Buu fought Kid Buu and held his own, the same Good Buu that got curvestomped to the ground by EVIL Buu. If freaking Evil Buu can dominate Good Buu to that extent, what makes you guys think that Kid Buu can remotely do anything to Base Super Buu? Jesus, this isn't complicated. Every argument made for Kid Buu is either not consistent with the story or feats, or can be debunked. Super Buu has the more consistent scaling. And that nonsense with their size affecting their power also annoys me. Since when does size matter in DB, these are the same characters that can nuke freaking solar systems with ease, AND even if it was their size, Super Buu also separated into a body the same size as them. But he's also suppose to be at full power? Come on now, that makes no sense, if anything it makes more sense for Goku and Vegeta to be at full power since it was never indicated that it was their size that was the power, literally in the next panel Goku complained about Vegeta destroying the potara earrings. This debate has go on for way too damn long, it's fine to like which ever Buu but this is getting ridiculous. Anyone who's willing to use half their brain and not blindly believe every single dialogue and statement can see that in both the manga and anime, Super Buu is blatantly stronger than Kid Buu. You don't go from screaming through dimensions to screaming out storms and somehow think " Hmmm, yup, screaming out storms is definitely a better feat." It's moronic.🤦♂
The Genki Dama doesn’t need pushed/controlled/unleashed, as shown on Namek, it just needs launched; if it’s stronger than the target, the target will be overwhelmed, and if it’s weaker than the target, it the target will overwhelm and redirect it.
Why would goku beg for fusion and duck the fade with super buu, then be confident in his ability against kid buu…..it’s very obvious super buu is stronger. Wtf do yall be talking about
Because Kid Buu fight was in the Kaioshin Realm and Buuhan fight was on Earth. SSJ3 was literally made for the Otherworld because time flows differently there. It uses way too much energy to be sustainable on Earth. Not to mention, the Zenkai boosts and defusion buffs Goku got post Buuhan. From Dragon Ball chapter #475, Goku: It's because I used the Super Saiyan 3 earlier... It's something you can only use in the Other World. If you use it in a place where time flows, like Earth, it uses up way too much energy and exhausts you completely...
@@jamesspencer550 wtf is a fusion boost? Where in the cannon is that ever mentioned?? It’s a made up concept to prop up your favorite character. And as for the SS3 and time flow conundrum, that’s also false, because gotenks was able to use SS3 on earth with no problem. No of what you mentioned is part of the actual cannon, it’s just fan base conjecture
@@tomagray1811 Did you even watch the video you're commenting under? They literally went over what the defusion buff is. And of course they can use SSJ3 on Earth, the point is that it's way more EFFICIENT and POWERFUL when used in the Otherworld compared to when used on Earth. He literally quoted from the Manga so it's all canon lol.
@ I watched it and my statement stands. Nowhere in the canon is it stated that a fusion buff is even a thing, ppl online just made it up. Also, there were no zenkis post fusion, that’s something else that was arbitrarily added to prop up goku and ultimately kid buu. Do you really believe goku ss3 is equal to or past mystic gohan?
The thing about Buutenks and Buuhan is that Piccolo, despite not having the same power as the Saiyans, is still the smartest Z-Fighter and Buutenks used that intelligence for psychological warfare against Gohan. That knowledge can tip the scales in a fight. Plus, when it comes to “jumping” Kid Buu, I would say that Gohan would have been the best bet to stall Kid Buu until Goku absorbed enough energy for the Spirit Bomb. Plus, a lot people misunderstand the Buu Saga Spirit Bomb for a Universal Spirit Bomb. Because Buu Saga Spirit Bomb was created by all the people of Earth, Z-Fighters included. Just Saiyan…
This is a simple case of feats vs statements: Buuhan has better feats and better narrative support from the original manga, Kid Buu just has random statements of dubious canonicity that require complicated, unexplained power ups for other characters (Goku and Vegeta) to be justified. In the case of Krillin and Yamcha's power ups in the anime filler, they are evident through their feats, with Goku and Vegeta's supposed power ups they have to be made up to justify some statements for Kid Buu that contradict the feats, they are not demonstrated in the series. There's also anti-feats to consider: Kid Buu vs Good Buu is a thing, in which Good Buu does just as well as Vegeta, if not better, and we know for a fact that Good Buu is weaker than Super Buu given that he lost to the skinny Pure Evil Buu and then absorbed to create Super Buu. Meanwhile, Buuhan doesn't have any anti-feats, he only fought Vegetto, the objectively strongest character pre-Super, and in the anime he did even better than in the manga.
Buuhan doesn't even make up BASE vegito's power. Buuhan doesn't have outside space in the manga either. Buuhan never been giving as many or significant statements in regards to his power other than forcing goku to rely on fusion (at the time). If you even take ONLY the manga, Akira and manga chapter names only refer to KID BUU as the strongest. Goku says that his KI was only rising when he was transforming. Even if you take manga only, kid buu even wins out in the statements.
@@lordraiden7397 Bruh, Buutenks calls himself "THE STRONGEST MAJIN" , he is weaker than Buuhan, and he still has 0 anti-feats while Kid Buu struggles against Fat Buu almost the same if not worse than the skinny Pure Evil Buu. It's also incorrect that Super Buu's ki was only rising, it raised when he became the buff buu post-kai absorption but decreased when he returned to the pure form, hence why Goku and Vegeta were more confident in taking Kid Buu rather than the buff Buu. But such meager statements are ridiculous when you have such obvious anti-feats. SSJ3 Goku still beat him up good, and the way Fat Buu did against Kid Buu implies this Goku didin't get an imaginary power boost like you weirdos try to imply. Also where do you get that Buuhan would get folded easily by base Vegetto in the manga? sounds like headcanon because in the manga Vegetto went straight to SSJ. Stop basing your entire scaling off of statements that get contradicted by everything else, are you really going off of chapter names of all things, instead of the actual narrative? Not to mention vague toriyama statements, from a guy who forgets plenty of his own series. Your scaling has 0 basis, you have 0 feats, 0 reputable statements and plenty of anti-feats and statements (from the actual series) that state the contrary on top of being consistent with the feats.
@prometheusmodelow8322 Kid Buu didn't even struggle against fat buu. Literally look at the manga chapters, the dude is smacking around fat buu while getting cheap shotted by Vegeta. What are you on about? Do I need to dissect down the actions within the panels? If you want to flat out use ONLY statements, Buuhan doesn't have any direct statements that suggest he's the strongest. You only know that though chain scaling What do you mean Goku beat up Kid Buu good either? Goku was tired and couldn't get past the fact that Buu's regeneration and stamina was far more overwhelming than he anticipated. Kid Buu was straight up playing around with him. Goku not once commented that his Ki decreased. Vegeta was judging Kid buu's appearance. The next scene after these guys were running away from a fully charged up attack from Buu. I was up at 4 am, so I overlooked the detail that Vegito went straight to SSJ. But that it doesn't change that Buuhan does not do anything to Vegito at all. The statements like Kid Buu being the most troublesome of the buus? What about the interview toriyama stating that Goku was the strongest? There are literal guidebooks for the manga that bang over your head how strong Kid Buu is.
So kid buu's best feat is doing something that skinny Buu could already do, and outlasting SSJ3 Goku after a pretty even fight who was relative to the evil Fat Buu, cool, that makes him weaker than Super Buu and especially Buuhan. "Troublesome" doesn't mean stronger especially given Buu himself became "the strongest Majin" once he became Buutenks, Buutenks knows about his past strenght, and you are just assuming Vegeta is talking about appereance, nothing directly points towards that, they only think that they could take him on at that point not in the buff state, you are merely injecting that meaning to support your narrative that is based on ignoring the mountains of evidence in feats when said asinine interpretation isn't needed because we have the feats to back up the opposite. Goku is the strongest in random ass toriyama interview? cool, this only means Goku got a zenkai after recovering with the dragon balls during the final push, see how your argument is dead air when it's based on flimsy statements holding it together? Meanwhile Buuhan has feats and concrete scaling, which Kid Buu doesn't have. Yes Buuhan doesn't do anything against Super Vegetto, but so hasn't Kid Buu, you are missing the point that Vegetto is clearly the strongest fighter in Z thus losing to him isn't an anti-feat because Kid Buu hasn't surpassed his level in any way shape or form, meanwhile Kid Buu is struggling against Fat Buu and Vegeta getting in his way. Even though in the manga Fat Buu is more clearly losing the fight than in the anime from what we see of their fight, he's still holding Kid Buu off enough so that they can plot out the entire Genki Dama strategy and put it into motion, this is 100% an anti-feat for him. Also are any of those guidebooks consistent with each other even? what is the cereal box statement that outshines all of what the original series tells us? lol.
14:12 This statement says Gohan and Gotenks are enough for kid buu. It also states "Buu returned to it's more violent, but not so strong form". Not sure why you started talking about them ganging up on him.
@@Bread-lh4fl It still makes no sense for him to talk about there being a need of everyone fighting against Kid Buu, when the text is explicitly saying it's not necessary. PS: Why you getting so mad over anime powerscaling bro.
@@jukilopc85 What are you talking about? The illustration clearly displays all three of them simultaneously attacking at once which is blatant evidence of the scan being in reference to all three of them jumping Kid Buu. I agree on it not being necessary since in the canon Goku manages to defeat him without jumping him with Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan, but it's quite evident that the scan clearly refers to the three jumping him.
Lmao what about where Goku clearly states “kid buu was far superior than all the other buu until now ?” That’s my argument against folks who feel kid buu isn’t the strongest & final villain.
This is exactly why all these guides and side books simply should not exist or be taken seriously. Imagine the simplicity of this if we ONLY had to look at the base manga itself.
Kid buu still is stronger we literally see beforehand that super buu gotten stronger then immediately turn into kid buu. Never mind him pushing back the spirit bomb.
@@Jsipki265 Goku straight up said he CANNOT fight Super Buu, but he thought he could wipe Kid Buu in SSJ3. It's really not that complicated. Manga > filler and merchandise.
@@Dracogame 1. goku underestimated him 2. Goku in that same fight said he wished he hadn’t tried to look cool in front of supreme kai and just fused 3. When super buu was reverting back to kid buu in the anime and manga “Chapter 313” goku actually flat out asks “why is his chi getting bigger”
If you take the base manga, you still have statements stating that Kid buu is the strongest. The only thing anime wise buuhan had over kid buu was the outside space feat and that's dwarfed by Kid buu about to one shot grand kais planet. I'm not even including the fact that inside buus body, they were 1/100th their strength. Akira toriyama even acknowledges goku as the strongest in an interview.
@ what statement in the manga says kid buu is the strongest? In the base manga that straight is never said. You bringing up author interviews etc is literally exactly the type of side stuff my comment is talking about.
Kid Buu via statements😌 Also, I feel like no one knows who Evil Buu is. Evil Buu transforms into Kid Buu via God Ki absorption. Evil Buu is also Super Buu. Conclusion, God Ki amp > Fusion First chapter of DBS. “The strongest enemy of all time, Majin Buu suddenly*** appeared” No one saw Kid Buu coming, they were actively trying to stop Fat Buu from ever being a thing. Evil Buu transformed into Kid Buu and they assumed he got weaker talkmbout “We*** can take him”. Except, Vegeta is hyping Goku up, just for Goku to shut that shi down and saying “nigga we should’ve fused, let’s get Gohan, Gotenks and Fat Buu to fight” just so Vegeta says “nah, we gon need the spirit bomb”.
Keep in mind that Goku was fighting Kid Buu in the Kaioshin Realm, which allowed him to fully utilize the power of SSJ3. This isn’t possible on Earth due to the limitations of energy consumption in a mortal environment. From Dragon Ball chapter #475: Goku: It's because I used the Super Saiyan 3 earlier... It's something you can only use in the Other World. If you use it in a place where time flows, like Earth, it uses up way too much energy and exhausts you completely... This is in addition to the Zenkai boosts and defusion boosts mentioned in the video.
a lot of the pro-kid buu stuff in the community should be taken with a grain of salt imo for instance: 05:33 and other guide says the Z warriors clones are just as strong as they were originally. "Guides" (a lot of them aren't even that) are taken way too seriously in the community imo. They shouldnt be granted the same weight as a manga statement. Like there should be a hierarchy between official manga statements, and magazine bullshit 16:25 not only they do say most dangerous, but they also say he's not the strongest in el manga legendario lmao so that statment doesnt help kid buu at all. That one is a guide btw that should have more weight than some magazines ppl been throwing around The Genki Dama thing shouldn't be counted as pro-kid buu. If it was direct power then all they'd need is Gohan and not go through all that trouble trying to convince power level 5s in humans to give their energy too.
Super Buu>Kid Buu About the flea size point in this video, we have to look at Toriyama's intention when he is writing the scene to get to the truth. No matter how much he’s reverted to normal, with the way we are right now, we’ll definitely be killed…!” Goku made the statement above not because he is small size. He is referring to the fact that right now in their unfused state they will be killed by Super Buu. If Goku can defeat Super Buu then Toriyama will be clear in letting us know that Super Buu is stronger than Goku. If you think Goku is stronger than Super Buu, but then Super Buu can defeat Goku ONLY because Goku is flea size, then it means this is unfair for Goku. If a fight is unfair, a writer will point is out and explain why it is unfair. A good writer will leave no room for head canon. There are at least 3 times Goku is put in an unfair fight with disadvantages that unfairly make him weaker than his opponent. First time is when Kid Goku fought Yamacha, Goku was defeated but Toriyama clearly stated that the reason Goku lost is because he was hungry. A good writer like Toriyama made that very clear that hunger is the only reason Goku lost. Goku IS stronger than Yamacha. Second time would be Goku vs Android 19. Goku lost mainly due to his heart attack and again that was stated VERY clearly. Third time is when Goku fought Kid Buu. Goku was not aware that his new body has stamina issues. So all 3 times the reason why Goku could not win was CLEARLY stated. That is what writers do. And that is what Toriyama did. If the flea size theory is correct, then Toriyama would make it clear and have them state something like "I could have beaten Super Buu but due to the fact I am flea size now it is not possible." Unless you are saying Toriyama suddenly made a very uncharacteristic fundamental writing mistake and his editors somehow are sleeping on their job as well. Which I find it hard to believe. I need to make something clear here. I am not arguing against the fact that Goku would lose to Super Buu because of the flea size. Toriayma did intend for us to know that based on the exchange between Goku and Super Buu in chapter 507. But when Goku made the statement that he would not be able to defeat Buu it was in chapter 506. So at that point in time it is before the flea size concept is introduced to the audience. The only thing/information that is available to the readers is fusion. So when Goku mentioned “the way they are” it is highly possible that readers that have not read 507 yet will think Goku is referring to their unfused state. Whether their small size actually affects their power level is irrelevant here as in the minds of the readers reading chapter 506 for the first time, they are not introduced to the concept of the flea size nerf yet. So by letting Goku say “the way they are”, readers have no choice but to think Goku is referring to their non fused state. If Toriyama’s intention is to refer to their “flea size state” instead of “non fused” state then Toriyama made a very basic beginner level writing error, which is assuming the reader have the same knowledge as the writer. If that concept wasn’t introduced yet, a writer cannot assume the readers would know it. This happens often in writing classes and it is due to the fact that even though the story is clear in the writer’s mind, when presenting the story writers may accidentally forget that there are certain things that are not clear for the readers. Hence it is important to have editors. The editors will help the writers be clearer in situations like this. The fact that both Toriyama and the editor did not mention the flea size nerf in chapter 506 shows us that the original intention of that Goku statement is to talk about their non fused state. This is further reinforced as the very next page Goku is suggesting to do the fusion dance with Vegeta. If the whole important point is “Goku is stronger than Super Buu but now he is weaker due to the flea size nerf” then the whole focus should not be on fusion. As a writer Toriyama would have to shift the narrative focus to explaining that clearly by showing Goku is thinking of ways to counter the flea size nerf or at least talk about it. Even something like “Maybe the air outside will get me back to normal and I would be able to defeat him then, but now I am too small to use my full power” would show the intend that “Goku is stronger than Super Buu but now he is weaker due to the flea size nerf”. So in conclusion, Goku is indeed much weaker than Super Buu. And from that we can scale Super Buu above Kid Buu as Goku managed to keep up with Kid Buu in a fight.
Toriyama DID tell us why Goku cant defeat Super Buu, its because of the state hes in. Whats in question is if its in reference to fusion or their size. He doesnt have to specifically use the word size and its very easy to interpret the state their in being in reference to Size seeing as we KNOW they are significantly smaller. If anything this statement is indicative of the idea that size nerfs power sinces hes attributing the reason as the state hes in(i.e hes small).
Yea ur completely right, when looking at the dailogue from goku it’s always in reference to fusion. Infact goku didn’t know about the nerf till super buu pointed it out, and if ppl didn’t read the daizenshu guide they themselves wouldn’t know about the nerf till super buu points it out. not to mention goku talks about losing outside of buus body not inside. Also he thought to do the fusion dance inside buus body so gogeta would’ve been tiny and nerfed as well yet that isn’t a concern for goku.
@@SuckYaMudda Read my post again, If your version is correct then as a good writer Toriyama should have make that clear to us. Like how it made it clear with Kid Goku vs yamacha and SSJ Goku vs Andriod 19. On top of that the narrative focus of that chapter is fusion. So from a writer's perspective, using authorial intend analysis we can easily tell Toriyama's intention is to tell us that Goku is thinking they will need fusion to defeat Super Buu. Goku would not be able to win vs Super Buu regardless of his size.
It is funny how 99% of the community will try and clown on anyone who says ssj3 Goku>ultimate Gohan or kid Buu>Super Buu. A lot of people have accepted something for so long they will refuse to believe they can even possibly be wrong.
@@weeaboo-warrior All a debate proves is you're more skilled at debating, not that you're correct. Otherwise, science would be decided by debates, not by peer reviewed papers and evidence.
@@TheAsj97 I agree, but don’t you think it’s hypocritical to clown people because they think they misinterpreted a fictional story if they can’t even win a debate on the topic they are clowning them for? With fiction you can’t prove things empirically with scientific testing, all we have is logical arguments to make.
Buuhan? Kid Buu isn’t stronger than regular Super Buu and Goku isn’t stronger than Gotenks. You can’t just ignore Goku being asked if he can beat Super Buu and immediately saying that even if he and Vegeta worked together they would lose whilst freeing everyone from Buuhan. Gotenks would draw with Superbuu, maybe beat him, and Gohan would demolish him mid difficulty. Goku is not hanging with either.
@@ItsB1998You have no proof of Zenkai, no one mentioned a zenkai, no powerlevels, no one mentioned they seem different. Literally NOTHING. Please give me evidence of a zenkai between the Buuhan and Kid Buu fights. 8’ll wait…
Ur forgetting kibito kai's statement. Absorbing good hearted beings limits buu's power. Put it like this. Put a scale for buu's OG power at 10. Put then put a limiter scale starting at 0 and put an absorption bonus also starting at 0. When buu absorbed south kai say his own power got limited to an 8 but he gained an absorption bonus of 1.5 He then absorbed dai kaio which is a being of pure, pure good. Say this was a major debuff on his original power putting it at a 3 and the absorption tallies up to make it a 6.5 total. Then buu separates. Good buu is a 2.5, evil buu due to not having as much dai kaio influence is a 5 Super buu becomes a 7.5 because the goodness has become more surpressed and say his og power itself is restored by 1 whole point. Then super buu absorbs gotenks and piccolo. This actually limits his original power again but the fusion of gotenks is strong enough to raise it so say an 8.5 Same thing with gohan. It limits his own power further but that is offset by gohan's strength. Making buuhan either a 9 or a 9.5 because gotenks split up. So to say that kid buu could or is the strongest buu might be very correct iff the original power got surpressed a decent amount every time a being with a good heart got absorbed.
I could be misremembering, but as I recall, it was only the Dai Kaio's innocence that reduced Buu's power, not him absorbing good hearted beings in general. Personally, I still do think that Buu with Gohan absorbed is the most powerful form of Buu. However, I also think that that version of Buu isn't as much stronger than the others as many people think. I believe that absorption is linear power increase. Buu absorbs someone, and he just adds their power to his own. So, basically you have Gotenks vs Super Buu, where they are more or less fighting on an even playing field, though with a small advantage to Gotenks. Then you have Gohan handling Super Buu pretty easily, but he isn't just straight up one shotting him, so I put Gohan at double Buu's power, give or take. The give or take doubled power is also supported by the next point. Then Buu absorbs Gotenks, doubling his power, and is pretty close to comparable to Gohan, but has the advantage of perfect regeneration, or in other words, infinite stamina. So, they were both going all out, which means Gohan got winded very quickly, while Buu can't get winded, so Buu proceeded to put the beat down on Gohan relatively quickly. So that brings us Buu with Gohan absorbed, which makes him about 3x Super Buu's power (Super Buu's power plus Gohan's 2x Super Buu's power). Given, there are Trunks, Goten, and Piccolo in there as well, but lets be honest, their contribution is negligible at absolute best. lastly we have Kid Buu, where the series directly tells us that Super Buu's power starts increasing instead of decreasing when fat Buu is removed. So, if you believe that Buu with Gohan absorbed is the most powerful, then that means Kid Buu is somewhere between slightly above Super Buu's power, and slightly under 3x that. However, if you believe that Kid Buu is stronger than Buu with Gohan absorbed, a 3x + multiplier is really not a long shot in a series where characters are multiplying their power by 50x on a whim.
@ikeillue8385 I get ur point and it did cross my mind when making the argument. It is just that gotenks and gohan are so vastly powerful that it offsets it. It is not that all absorptions make buu weaker in total. Gohan has a very pure heart but his power is so high that it offsets how much it limits him. Now if the fusion of did not wear off then he'd for sure probably be stronger than kid buu but just not with his own power and only the powers gained from absorption. It all depends on how big the original's power was in comparison because at first goku and vegeta thought they could handle him yet a few moments later they started doubting themselves because they couldn't tell anymore if he was stronger or weaker than before. Same thing with super saiyan 3 goku's statement which goku, and people working on the manga, returned that statement later to saying it was no use because goku's body could not go beyond his limit at that point. I totally get why there is an argument for buuhan to be stronger, I was just making a point why it COULD be that kid buu, with his full original power restored, is stronger.
@@mclordawesome That is basically the point I was making, except for the fact that I don't think its necessary to assume that all absorptions have a negative modifier on Buu's power. Like I said, I'm pretty sure that the Supreme Kai was a very specific and unique case. But based on what we see from Super Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan, the difference between Buu before and after absorbing Gohan, can be even less than a 3x difference, which again is not unreasonable to say that Kid Buu gained that much of a boost from Super Buu, when you have 20 and 50x multipliers being thrown around all over the place.
@ikeillue8385 Whatever the true case may be. I think if a official guide, narration, manga and statements from even goku make it clear that he might the strongest buu then it should be considered true because we fans can't overrule any of that. We don't make the truth. The truth is what is given to us. Say if buuhan was stronger then there is also a factor for potential. Buuhan does NOT get gohan's potential. He just uses him as a power source and to get intellect yet he does not possess gohan's dna at all. He relies on stolen power while kid buu relies solely on his own. Also kid buu's regeneration is better and he seems to possess near infinite stamina so it would only be a matter of time in a hypothetical fight between them before he catches up and outgrows buuhan because buuhan would not wipe him out that easily at all.
I’ve always tried to meet in the middle on this topic by saying that Kid Buu is the strongest unfused Buu, but Buuhan is the strongest Buu overall. So I would rank them like this: 1. Buuhan 2. Buutenks 3. Buucilo 4. Kid Buu 5. Buff Buu 6. Super Buu 7. Fat Buu 8. Evil Buu 9. Fat Buu (Divided from Evil Buu)
What but why did you put super buu just absorbing goten trunks and piccolo puts him above super buu 😭 do you think the difference between them is that small 😭😭
Goku and Vegeta had to fuse to beat superbuu but against kid buu they did not have to fuse.One can use common sense superbuu was stronger.Buutenks demolished SS3 goku without effort but Kid Buu was struggling against SS3 goku.
Goku and Vegeta got Zenkai boosts and defusion buffs post Buuhan when fighting Kid Buu (as stated in the video as well) but most importantly, Kid Buu was fighting SSJ3 in the Kaioshin Realm (which is in the Otherworld) and Buuhan/Fat Buu were fighting SSJ3 on Earth. SSJ3 was literally made for the Otherworld because time flows differently there. It uses way too much energy to be sustainable on Earth. From Dragon Ball chapter #475, Goku: It's because I used the Super Saiyan 3 earlier... It's something you can only use in the Other World. If you use it in a place where time flows, like Earth, it uses up way too much energy and exhausts you completely...
I’m probably going to get flamed for this but in the Kai Dub Supreme Kai says that Super Sayian 3 Goku and Kid Buu fight at a level he’s never seen before and Supreme Kai watched Vegito and Buuhans entire fight And in Supers Manga Dende says Kid Buu was Goku’s greatest adversary.
But then in the manga both Goku and Vegeta state they stand no chance at all against Base Super Buu, but Goku is confident he could kill Kid Buu Buuhan is literally Super Buu + Ultimate Gohan + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks No way is Kid Buu laying a finger on Buuhan, especially when Goku pissed his pants at the thought of fighting Buutenks The only debate that's really valid is Super Buu vs Kid Buu (no absorption)
@@po72644they said “if we go out this we’ll lose” due to them being the size of a flea 😂 and also they say kid buu is holding back on them and is stated as a fusion level threat
The anime includes lot of fluff like that to hype up Kid Buu. Lots of cool buzz words and stuff to make him seem like the strongest. But in the manga, Goku says that neither him nor Vegeta would beat Super Buu, even after they remove Gohan and the other absorptions from him. Yet, Goku felt good about beating Kid Buu by himself at SSJ3. So that’s a pretty wide gap in strength.
This much is clear. SJJ3 Goku never had a chance against Pure Buu. He was playing with Goku the entire time. He took Mr. Buu on with same level of sincerity.
I'm shocked that this thing is still a debate. The english community has a huuge differences in arguments and points that i never thought would ever have to analise. This whole thing can be solved with one Character, Gotenks. How strong is Gotenks? Well, we have to see how Strong both Goten and Trunks are: Goten and Trunks have feats that puts them around the level of Gohan and Vegeta's base form, they are weaker of course, but the gap isn't that big (we can see both Gohan and Vegeta struggle to response the speed of the kids, then overcome the attack, that means the kids Strength is no joke even for them). Now, the fusion works in this way, with the fusion a new person is born, is not any of the previous persons. The power of this new individual is the maximun power of the users and then a multiplication (much or less, the fusion doesn't have an universal multiplication number unfortunatly), this means that Base Gotenks is way stronger than Goten SSJ (we could say that Gotenks could be around an hypotetical SSJ2 Goten). Goku is way stronger than Goten, we could say that Goten has to go SSJ2 (hypotetical) in order to beat Goku's SSJ. This would put Gotenks Base form above Goku's SSJ easily, this would mean that even if Goku SSJ3 represents an x8 to his SSJ, Gotenks SSJ is x50 times stronger than Goku's SSJ. It's LITERALLY imposible that Goku could defeat Super Buu, because that would mean Goku would recieved and x400 Power Up out of nowhere. Kid Buu is stronger that Good Buu, i would say it's equal to Evil Buu. Then Super Buu it's above all of them.
Your joking when they fight vegeta he’s was in training and trunks barely gets a knick on vegeta because he was holding back. Dont even compare that. Base vegeta is so much stronger than ssj trunks.
Sure except the thing is you pulled most of what you said completely out of your ass so none of it makes sense, and yes goku did indeed get a massive power up before the kid buu fight
@@ssjdrink is much stronger then yet Android 18 was having trouble to fight againts them, the same 18 that was able to defeat Vegeta SSJ in the past, and even if Vegeta's SSJ was almost as twice as strong than before, Trunks SSJ is at least strong as Vegeta's SSJ from the beginning of the Androids arc (or even stronger because Goten and Trunks doesn't seems to have the side effects of the transformation). Either way is impossible to Base Vegeta (Buu) get as strong as his Super Saiyan from the Android Saga. PD; Gohan says that Goten could surpass him if he get more neglected. The manga said that these 2 were the strongest people in Earth after Goku got back to the afterlife and Gohan's dissapearance (putting them above Piccolo). The Daizenshuu 2 mentions that Goten SSJ is at the same level of Gohan's SSJ, and all of this previous to the Time Chamber training were Piccolo said that they got stronger.
@@skiburc2252 Goku didn't get any power boost, he was still not able to defeat Super Buu and suggested the fusion because of that. You are saying this because you want Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu but no, Kid Buu is the second/third weakest form of Majin Bu.
Kid buu slaps the dog shit out of buuhan lol. It definitely took me a good number of years to come around. But if you're getting to the higher, non "normies" level of powerscaling and philosophy, then the answer becomes pretty obvious. Also i welcome a full comment section jumping. I wanna hear what a bunch of normies have to say 😂.
Agreed. One of the most obvious pieces of evidence is the following for Kid Buu. 16:34 The true, pure form of Boo, possessing the greatest strength, that at last appears. Dende (in DBS Manga to Goku): "That's right. The Evil Majin Buu was the greatest enemy you ever faced, and when you cleansed his soul, he was reborn as a human."
I always found it odd that kidbuu pushed back a spirit bomb powered by ultimate gohan and all the earthlings, and goku still needed supersayian to beat him. Like why would gohan give the most mundane amount of energy to power up the spirit bomb, if hes still stronger than kidbuu in order for it to not be strong enough to kill buu. Good buu has to be pretty strong to then doesnt he, he was taking an ass wooping, and he did better against kid buu then he did against evil buu
The argument that the Genki Dama contains Gohan's Ki therefore It shows that Gohan is weaker than Kid Buu is flawed. This is due to the lack of understanding of how Ki works. I will refer Genki as base ki or base energy that a fighter has. But that base energy can be charged up or "exploded" into higher Ki. I call that battle Ki. This is not head canon but something Piccolo talks briefly about. When android 20 absorbed Piccolo's energy or Ki, he thought that he would win as he already has Piccolo's Ki in him. But he still lost, and Piccolo explained that when they fight they can charge and explode their Ki which greatly enhancing their fighting abilities. Hence the energy taken by Android 20 is not really that big. Similarly the Genki that was taken from Gohan is not his "charged Ki" or battle Ki. You can tell that it is not the same type of Ki. If it is the "Ki" that the Kid Buu supporters are thinking of, then Goten and Trunks would be sending their "charged Ki" while they are in Super Saiyan form. But no, they did not power up, the Ki taken is Genki or their base Ki that is uncharged. So it is unfair to say that the Ki taken from Gohan represents Gohan's full power/energy level.
The reason is that the editor wanted that ending. Gohan was not allowed to resolve the conflict because Goku sells more. If he was, they would have used the last wish to transport him on the Kaioshin's planet. Doesn't make kid buu stronger. On top of that, the mechanism behind the Genkidama is weird. Why would it be tied to Goku's stamina? Because they needed to drag the ending one more chapter.
@@HavokUnbound Because Goku himself confirmed that Buu was toying with him, when Goku said he messed up in destroying the potara, Kid Buu was dancing and playing around.
16:34 The true, pure form of Boo, possessing the greatest strength, that at last appears. Dende (in DBS Manga to Goku): "That's right. The Evil Majin Buu was the greatest enemy you ever faced, and when you cleansed his soul, he was reborn as a human."
@@jamesspencer550Evil Majin Boo is the name given to base Super Boo, so if you count Kid Boo or Pure Majin Boo among the Evil Majin Boo forms it's just Dende saying generically that Boo was the strongest villain Goku ever faced. Another problem you have is that if you're going to quote Super, you have to acknowledge that Pure Majin Boo either wasn't capable of using all of Dai Kaioshin's divine ki or couldn't use it, Goku says they'll "definitely be done in" if they "go out like this" while they're inside base Super Boo, meaning he isn't certain against Boo either way, implying he's either relative to Super Boo or slightly weaker pre-fusion. Whereas he is like "yes we did it at least this way we might be able to manage something" after he reverts to Pure Majin Boo or Kid Boo, which could mean that without the Dai Kaioshin power he's relative to base Super Boo and with some of it he's slightly above Ultimate Gohan (the magic in Boo's body could be a factor) with post-fusion SS3 Goku being relative to Ultimate Gohan as implied by the Viz release that said that Boo was "gaining power on par with SS3 Goku" when he absorbed Ultimate Gohan which I take to mean that at some point he and Goku were relative and that the guidebook they mentioned just talked about Ultimate Gohan being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 generally, not a fused Super Saiyan 3 like Gotenks (even though Gohan obviously was stronger). As for Goku inside Boo's body and the fake Ultimate Gohan filler, Gohan's body was flickering in and out of existence during the fight and all of Boohan's thought forms reverted to cake in the end... the point is that the fake Ultimate Gohan might have been relative in power to the real thing but couldn't access all of his power because he was being limited by Boohan's mind. Seth already made this point in a previous video and due to the fact that Goku thinks Gotenks and Gohan could make a solid difference against Pure Majin Boo collectively when everyone else was too knackered to fight just goes to show that objectively speaking (even if he has buried power surpassing or simply rivalling Super Vegetto) he is weaker than Bootenks, since the Elder Kaioshin said that even if Goku and Gohan worked together they still wouldn't win and even if you discount that Boohan was far above Bootenks... Pure Majin Boo aka Kid Boo might have power within him to be the strongest but if he can't objectively and fully wield it, it doesn't really mean very much, because it means that in practical terms absent the full partly inaccessible Dai Kaioshin portion of divine ki, Kid Boo is objectively weaker than Boohan and Goku is only really the absolute strongest in the Universe after Porunga replenishes his ki, which likely gives him a zenkai boost!
This is accurate, Pure Majin Boo aka Kid Boo can only be argued as the strongest by virtue of divine ki he can't access because of the magic within him. Objectively speaking in the real world Boohan and even Bootenks are stronger...
This topic is always going to be so volatile just because of the sheer differences between anime vs manga (one of the big negatives about the addition of so many edits and filler in the anime imo) and all of the various databooks and guides and shit. The fact that neither the anime filler/changed scenes nor the various guides/databooks are really written by Toriyama at all and the fact Toriyama was infamous for being really forgetful makes it that much worse.
Toriyama: I consider the TV Animation to exist in one dimension with the manga. I have what I call Canon, which is the TV series and the original, printed comic edition works that are directly tied into continuity. Anime and manga are one continuity that exist in the exact same dimension, so said Toriyama. They are both tied directly into continuity. You don't know what you're talking about at all. Just like Seth and people like him. Go tell Toriyama he is wrong about his own Canon that he decides is Canon. You people never know what you're talking about, but you act so sure that you do. You have no business having any confidence in anything you say about Dragonball. Not now, nor ever.
@Wavy_Godd96 Nah. Buuhan, Buutenks and Super Buu are probably stronger than Kid Buu. Goku fought Kid Buu evenly for awhile, but he wasn't as confident against Buuhan or Buutenks.
@Wavy_Godd96 Your point? Goku still thought he could take Kid Buu. He fought Buutenks as a last resort. He wasn't even able to hurt him in any real way. Buutenks had the upperhand in the fight. Against Buuhan he knew the only way to win was fusion. Which is why he teleported to Vegeta as soon as he sensed him return to the world of the living. It goes (weakest to strongest): Fat Buu, Grey/Evil Buu; the next is complicated because Goku seemed willing to fight a depowered Super Buu (w/ Piccolo active), or at least let Gohan do it. That being said I think Kid Buu is at least comparable to Super Buu. Then, Buutenks followed by Buuhan.
@ you just proved my point goofy, you stated Goku “thought” he could take kid buu, well we know thats true because he even mentioned using the fusion again for kid buu however they had to resort to “others” or should I really say they had to rely on the dragon balls specifically due to the fact that they were already in over their heads in dealing with pure Buu or kid Buu, kid Buu is the final villain in the at for a reason not because he’s the smallest and has destructive power but simply because he’s the original form and the most powerful form of the Buus this is stated by Goku and Vegeta and even the Kai’s. Toriyama stated he wanted to go against everybody’s notion of bigger and decided to make the villain smaller but even more powerful because it goes against the norm. But yeah
I want a what if 17 was there in the Buu saga with what we know now. I hate that all we got pre super was his peak fight in Z, and the worst main fight in GT where his personality is practically gone, and he’s under some mind control so it wouldn’t show prefusion. The dub I’ll actually give some credit too cause he seems to at least talk more. Weird tangent but the fact he hasn’t interacted with Buu is wild. That seems to be an issue with Buu more than 17. They seem to don’t know what to do with him or if they do it doesn’t actually amount to anything MajUub
Akira Toriyama has always put the strongest version character at the end of the arc, furthermore, in the manga, there's a scene where Goku watches Super Buu become KID Buu and says out loud "uhhh why is his ki getting bigger?" With Vegeta present. It's power scaling inconsistency at its finest, but the show makes it very clear that KID Buu is the strongest
It's weird that the daizenshu says Goku at full power can't beat Kid Buu because in the manga at least he never goes full power against him. Strange indeed.
Majin Buu -> Southern Kaioshin-absorbed Majin Buu -> Dai Kaioshin-absorbed Majin Buu That’s one line of one Majin Buu. This Majin Buu has existed long before the story of Dragon Ball began. The Dai Kaioshin-absorbed Majin Buu is weaker than the original, and becomes even weaker when he expels his evil/wrath/rage, which manifests into another, new Majin Buu - the evil grey Buu. The evil grey Buu -> Super Buu -> Gotenks-absorbed Super Buu -> Piccolo-absorbed Super Buu -> Gohan-absorbed Super Buu That’s the new line of Majin Buu, who was birthed and only existed during the Buu Saga itself. In order from strongest to weakest: 1) Pure Buu/Kid Buu 2) Buuhan 3) Buutenks 4) Buucolo 5) Super Buu 6) Fat Buu 7) Grey Buu 8 ) Good Buu * Buff Buu can be above Buuhan or below Buucolo. All known for sure is above Super Buu and below Kid Buu * If you guys want some more information and data book scans, email me. 🔥 That said, the heroes scaling is important as well. Ranks: 1) Vegetto 2) Goku 3) Gohan 4) Gotenks 5) Vegeta 6) Others Totality ranks: 1) Vegetto 2) Kid Buu 3) Buuhan 4) Buutenks 5) SSJ3 Goku 6) Ultimate Gohan 7) Buucolo 8 ) Super Buu 9) SSJ3 Gotenks 10) Fat Buu 11) SSJ2 Vegeta 12) Grey Buu 13) Good Buu 14) Others * Buff Buu, again, would be below Kid Buu and above Super Buu, certainly, but unknown compared to Ultimate Gohan to Buuhan. Could be below Gohan. Could be above Buuhan. *
This was the best video on this topic so far. With all the guides and statements saying Kid Buu is the strongest, and nothing in the manga directly negating such it is reasonable to say Kid Buu is the strongest. But with how events went chronologically and by feats Buutenks and Buuhan appear much stronger than Kid Buu. In the anime, besides the statements clearly going towards Kid Buu, Buuhan literally destroys him in every way with feats, if anything if we removed the statements in the anime but left everything else in tact there would be no doubt Buuhan is way stronger than Kid Buu. However in the manga it is totally different. Buuhan couldn't even touch Vegito and his only offense was the candy beam which backfired anyways, to claim Buuhan displayed anything scaling above Kid Buu in that fight would be disingenuous and claiming Kid Buu would somehow do worse than someone who didn't even touch Vegito in the first place is just as disingenuous. When Kid Buu appeared, the kai's obviously seen him as a fusion level threat similar to Buuhan and literally multiple times nag Goku and Vegeta for not fusing (Elder Kai specifically). Goku and Vegeta only decide not to fuse because Kid Buu is also not fused/absorbed with anyone, nothing of a power drop is mentioned, though likewise no significant power increase is mentioned either so claiming Kid Buu scales a considerable amount over Buuhan would just be disingenuous also. Also, claiming Kid Buu being the most troublesome was Elder Kai just saying he's the most erratic and crazy and it's not about power scaling is just made up fan theory. Maybe Toriyama thought that Elder Kai saying that statement about Kid Buu was sufficient enough to warrant Kid Buu as the strongest Buu rather than the thousands of times the anime tries to make that same point with a lot of verbose language to add. And as for Goku's Super Buu statement, even if the 100x debuff is an anime only thing, the fact that Goku and Vegeta are nerfed in a gimmicky situation inside Buu's body does not equate to a straight up one on one battle, so even if Goku went SSJ3 against Super Buu inside his body and lost(Goku didn't even go SSJ3 against Super Buu when him and Vegeta were in deep trouble), you cannot compare and scale that situation to a straight up one on one battle that was Gohan vs Super Buu with no gimmicks or tricks involved that would call into question the power of Goku and Vegeta. Claiming Ultimate Gohan scales above SSJ3 Goku based off these events is disingenuous and false, and people who scale Super Buu above Kid Buu only have this faulty evidence to go off of, this argument only works off the premise that Goku is talking about a hypothetical straight forward 1v1 against Super Buu despite the setting and situation being totally opposite. Also, no considerable power increase from Fat Buu to Super Buu is mentioned, Super Buu is only mentioned having a body more suitable for fighting and being able to sense ki because of that. Super Buu was just more direct threat because of his new body rather than the Fat Buu who was just wandering around earth. The only time Buu gained considerable power above the rest of the cast (excluding Vegito) was from Buutenks onwards, anything prior Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks could take care of, and by extension Goku could also take care of. Goku saying he could have beat the Fat Buu also reinforces this as Goku only had 3 times where he faced Buu one on one, Fat Buu where he is superior, Buutenks where he almost certainly loses and Kid Buu where he 100% lost with proof. In the end I'll say, in the anime Kid Buu is the strongest 100% just based off statements hammered home so many darn times lol, in the manga though I'll say Kid Buu > = Buuhan/Buuhan > = Kid Buu are both applicable as no direct decrease in power is mentioned with Kid Buu, only made up stories by the fandom. Edit: I didn't give enough credit to the creators of the video for finding some guides and statements that I missed. That Gotenks being the strongest one is my first time seeing it, I'm sure it's an anime exclusive one but it further proves that there is no statement or even an intention of ever making the claim that SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Goku has only ever commended them for gaining the ability of SSJ3 in a short amount of time while he has to train for years in the afterlife to do so.
@@latima123ify I mean, I already addressed why they didn't fuse. The fact that Kid Buu himself was not fused/absorbed with anyone plus Vegeta's insisting of not wanting to fuse with Goku again were the two main factors about why Vegito did not go vs Kid Buu hence the two quotes by Goku "It's not our style" and "We like to rely on ourselves. Buu is on his own now too". Direct quotes as to why SSJ3 Goku went against Kid Buu, and then even later in the fight when Goku is losing to Kid Buu, Goku then says they should have used the potara and that he thought the fight would go better than it actually did. So then this confirms that like Buuhan, Kid Buu at the very least requires Vegito to beat. Now usually I will lowball Kid Buu after we establish that Vegito would be required to beat him since I have no evidence to scale him any considerable amount over Buuhan. Though like what was shown in the video, the guide states the spirit bomb as the ultimate power possibly even being stronger than Vegito, I take Goku's word that Vegito too could have easily beat Kid Buu since once Goku's power was restored Kid Buu was no match for the spirit bomb. So then using these direct statements from both the manga and the daizenshuu, we know no single Z fighter alone was a match for Kid Buu, just like Buutenks and Buuhan. Now because there is no direct statements referencing Buutenks or Buuhan as the strongest after the fact of Kid Buu's appearance, we can't objectively scale Kid Buu against Buutenks or Buuhan without our own interpretation of the story, which can be subject to be false, hence all the fantasy power scaling done by the fandom. Which is why I say Kid Buu > = Buuhan if we go by statements made even if we simply go by the manga and daizenshuu or Buuhan > = Kid Buu if we go by the chronological events in the manga. And lastly I'll add, the anime made a lot of filler content that makes scaling a whole different continuity which even contradicts itself a lot in comparison to the manga. For example like I said earlier, in the manga Vegito vs Buuhan was completely one sided, but the anime really had Vegito even about to lose in some portions of the battle. The anime also has Goku saying he could have beaten Kid Buu already but was just trying to act cool, nothing of the sort is said in the manga. Though less significant, the anime also has Goku SSJ3 vs Buutenks which was just a face off in the manga, with this one though I don't think it veers off from manga as much as the other two examples. But yet despite all these things occurring we are still expected to Kid Buu is the strongest Buu despite evidence showing otherwise, which is probably why they repeatedly just state Kid Buu is the strongest to try to correct their mistakes or something. Even though Goku is the strongest in the end of the Buu saga(whether anime or manga), the anime seems to have a clear bias to make Goku appear even stronger than he actually is, because with all the given evidence we would have to come to the conclusion Goku got a crazy zenkai boost putting him near Vegito level based off the anime. In the end though we can just enjoy it for what it is, if they say Kid Buu is the strongest then he is the strongest.
Ur wrong about the difference between fat buu and super buu being small, it was a huge difference in power. Also for the goku super buu thing goku refers to losing outside buus body so no nerf / size issue
@@zubairbaig7617 Yeah, and compare that with how Goku reacted to Buu absorbed with Piccolo absorbed in a straight up one on one scenario with no gimmicks involved as a SSJ3. Buu was sweating at the prospect of having to face either SSJ3 Goku or Ultimate Gohan which is why he panicked and absorbed Gohan to become stronger than Goku. When Goku was saying that he was referring to his and Vegeta's current state saying "we'll get killed going out like this", and Goku's inability to pierce Super Buu inside further demonstrates the nerf they had placed on them. And then even in trouble inside Buu, only resorted to using regular SSJ, a totally different scenario than Gohan if you trying to make the argument to scale Gohan over Goku with this alone. Like I said, Super Buu is stronger but there is no proof of him being that much stronger than Fat Boo, only gained abilities. And since there is no proof of SSJ3 Gotenks being stronger than SSJ3 Goku except made up stuff, we can say Super Buu is not much stronger than Fat Buu who Goku could have beaten already. Edit: I'll say though, regardless of the arguments made, the inside Super Buu statement by Goku is kind of just bad writing that sort of does leave it up to the readers interpretation for whether Goku is referring to being normal sized or nerfed when exiting Buu. However what we can confirm from the situation is that Goku had no intention of going SSJ3 against regular Super Buu as we saw when Buu popped up in front of them, either due to its fatiguing nature, Goku protecting Vegeta's ego as Vegeta was mad at him hiding SSJ3 from him not long ago or most probably the true answer Toriyama just didn't want to use SSJ3 in that time. So under no circumstances can we equate that statement with a straight forward 1v1 SSJ3 Goku vs Super Buu when even Buu/w Piccolo was scared of him as a SSJ3 when everything was on a level field.
@@transcendsociety132 The buicolo scene ur referring to u is only presented that way in the dbz dub. But in the dbz sub, db kai dub, db kai sub and the manga there is zero implication from goku about being able to take out buicolo himself. So it lacks consistency. The “ like this” is better interpreted as ssj3 being weaker and needing fusion. Goku mentions fusion bfr and after the “ like this “ statement, he mentions it mulptile times in buus body. Even considered to fuse into gogeta INSIDE buus body so gogeta would’ve been tiny / nerfed as well. There is no mentjon of a nerf / size issue from Goku, in fact super buu points it out to goku and had it not been for the guides the viewers wouldn’t have known about the nerf until super buu pointed it out as well . Also when they first enter buus body Goku said soemthing along the lines of “ there’s no guarantee we can save everyone and revert buu back to his first / original form”. < the wording here is important, “ first” and “ original” is in reference to fat buu, someone who Goku is capable of beating. This is further backed up when Goku tells vegeta “ I could’ve beat the FAT buu but I wanted to give the boys a chance”. Notice how he never mentions any other buu? My point in all this is there is almost nothing that supports goku > base super buu. The only thing is interpreting the “ like this” statement but the other interpretation is supported better. Also I’ve seen ppl over the years argue goku didn’t know he would return to normal if he went out so him saying “ well go out and lose “ is still referring to the nerf. The issue here is 90% of these fans didn’t watch the show they jsut watch these db content creators post the “ 1/100th “ scan and the “ like this” statement and go along with it. Had these ppl actually watched the show they’d see in both dbz and in db kai goku says they’ll go out and regain their size / return to normal, and that statement alone destroys the whole argument of nerf / size being an issue and further proves Goku doesn’t scale to base super buu.
the strongest saibaman of today vs the strongest saibaman in history
The question is... can the current Yamcha defeat Majin Kuu & the OG Saibamen?
@@SpammytheHedgehog
Y E S
they dont know abt the super saibaman Majin Duu
Another W comment courtesy of Daima
Ofc Diama is the series to make Yamcha actually relevant 😭
Can't believe this argument even outlived Toriyama. I promise you Christ himself will return and dudes will STILL be arguing about this. God himself is the only one who can put this to an end 😂
god gon comeback and start debatin with us😭😭
@@zenkai182 God: my children, as the only omniscient being you can confidently trust in my wo-
*"appeal to authority fallacy"*
You love god?
Kami'sama?
Yea through eliminating
Seth n Chuck collab in 2024??
2017 shit man!
Oh wow, they're finally working together again.
Just wait until six join, I'd cry for joy 😂😭
Yeah wth even happened for them to work together again? Didn't Seth emotionally abuse him & a lot of others?
@@martinwunder2265yea i was wondering the same thing
@@martinwunder2265Yea but it seems like Seth was genuinely becoming a better person if Chuck and Clyde wanted to be his friend again. He also said in keemstars stream that he was getting help
A fun theory is that the length of Buu's head tentacle is an indicator of his strength. It gets longer as he gets stronger.
Hey it’s not about size, it’s how you use it🙏
@@johnfish9063 well buuhan uses it better
@@elcalabozodelandroide2 Not according to Goku, or Vegeta, or the kais... Or the narrator... Or the guides... But okay!
@@fidelgames Can I get a scan of these characters talking about how well Buuhan uses his head tentacle compared to Kid Buu?
Its more like an imitation of Gotenks SSJ3 hair
Toryama going through his Dana White arc during the Buu Saga 💀
This is common sense. The real scale argument is Base Super Buu vs Kid Buu
I mean the story clearly tells you super buu
Not even. Base Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu.
@@Dracogame story tells you otherwise
Logic wise, it only makes sense for Kid Buu to be stronger. Super Buu has the same makeup as Fat Buu, so therefore Super gets the same power nerf from the Kai’s. How would the Kai’s nerf make super Buu stronger than a form where he has no restraints at all.
@@FutureProspect24kid buu was a nerf lol
They need Ultimate Gohan to go against Super Buu. Buutenks literally manhandle Ultimate Gohan. Buuhan literally violated Vegeta and Goku, they need to resort to Vegito. How in the world the mindless Kid Buu, who they can took turn fighting, stronger than any of this form?
Some fans had their brain revert like Kid Buu and couldn't understand basic power-scaling after that moment.
Yall do remember goku and vegeta were offered fusion for kidd buu and denied it because saiyan pride and overconfidence? This are the same 2 saiyans that flat out said "Oh yeah he's small now? Oh he ain't shit" and then proceeded to get absolutely manhandled and required plot, sacrifice and nearly a universal spirit bomb to put Kid buu down.
@@jyanbei Imagine if they were fighting Super Buu, they'd be fucking dead.
Kid buu is uncontrollable and very unpredictable nobody knows what he’s gonna do next, the reason why goku and vegeta took turn fighting kid buu was because of their sayain pride they both wanted a piece of kid buu mind you both goku and vegeta are the same guys who had gotten zenkai boost from fighting buuhan and other version of bubu but yet kid bubu was still cooking both of them, goku only managed to take kid buu spirit bomb because it was infused with other fighters ki’s who had also fought super buu. If it wasn’t for the zenkai both goku and vegeta had gotten it kid bubu would’ve cooked even more then he was doing in the anime not even the spirit would’ve had killed him
Goku ss3 After the zenkai was as strong as ultimate Gohan, Goku and kid buu were almost even, for buuhan It took fucking super vegito
I find it so funny that this discussion over if character A (gohan buu) or B (kid buu) is stronger lasted this long considering there literally the same character. My take has always been "well the anime and the databooks say kid buu is stronger, so the instance you take any information from either of these as canon, the entire argument is pointless.". If you wanna be a manga pureist then i guess you could argue about it, but it's still funny cause...well they are effectivley the same character.
Also "we are professionals [at power scaling fictional characters]" made me laugh so hard
these are the best type of vs videos. when the characters have competent arguments on both sides and you guys explained them really well. just might be professional power scalers lmao
This feels like a crazy throw back omg
The real debate is Farmer with the Shotgun vs Monaka
Monaka has better feats, tanked a hit to the face from goku after battle of gods. Farmer with shotgun took a hit from raditz, which knocked him out
Monaka.
@@mustardsouls1005 didn't raditz kill him?
Hercule is not mentioned, as OBVIOUSLY he oneshots them both without trying at 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of his power.
@Skivv5 Mr. Satan is still one of the strongest humans. I think he's probably the strongest, if not the second strongest human who doesn't use Ki
Cant believe the feds got Chuck and forced him to change his name
Chuck the Cyberdude & Seth collab in 2024 is my Christmas gift
His name wasn't Chuck the Cybercuck?
Theres a reason why Gohan and Gotenks wasnt present during the Kid Buu fight. Gotenks would struggle to defeat him but Gohan would destroy him. If you think Buuhan is weaker than Kid Buu you’re an idiot
Goku confirms that Gohan's ki wasn't enough to take Kid Buu down during the super spirit bomb and he also thinks that he would need Gohan and Gotenks to join them to jump Kid Buu in hopes of taking him down. Not to mention in the anime there's way too much evidence and way too many statements for Kid Buu being the strongest after Goku already fought pretty much all of the Buus.
@@fidelgames the spirit bomb only collects ones spirit not entire energy lol
@@aeida6140on top of that Goku was very obviously putting his own power into question cause when buu pushed it back he was able to defeat him with the same spirit bomb as a super saiyan.
@@fidelgames Kid Buu in both the manga and anime struggled to beat Good Buu, who got bodied by Evil Buu. Stop blindly believing every dialogue and statement without first validating them. Gohan 's ki wasn't enough to completely eradicated Kid Buu's body, and also Gohan clearly didn't give all of his energy since the size of the spirit bomb wasn't that big when compared to later on when the regular citizens of the earth fueled the spiritbomb, which means either Gohan didn't give all his ki or its a different type of energy entirely.
@@aeida6140 And what is Ki? It's literally classified and used interchangeably as spiritual energy. This is nothing new. Multiple times do they interchange Ki and Genki. And in the context of the Super Spirit Bomb its literally talking about Ki. It never talks about spiritual energy and only uses Ki.
"In sparking zero" being used in a kid buu vs super buu debate is why powerscaling will always be hilarious 🤣🤣
In conclusion: the buu saga is not well written
Facts this shit ass lol
How is it poorly written? 🤨🤨
Cope
@@UnexpectedWonderthe power levels don’t make sense
@@YourboyStinkthe power levels are absolutely not the problem with the buu arc lmfao
The problems are like... almost everything else.
Like how goten/gotenks is handled, the constant weird mistakes from the characters, super saiyan 3 being so obviously not planned out that it hurts, etc.
There are good moments in the arc tho and it is fun, so I let it slide.
It’s clearly not hard.
Anime clearly isn’t consistent.
SSJ2 vegeta beats ssj3 gotenks ( in buu’s body)
Then he gets destroyed by kid buu
Mr Buu does better against kid buu than ssj2 vegeta
Mr buu ( is weaker than his normal fat buu self).
Unless you somehow believe Super buu is weaker than Fat buu.
This doesnt make sense.
So anime should be taken with a grain of salt.
Kid buu is weaker than Super buu
The anime is it's canon timeline, so no you don't. Kidd buu is stronger especially in the anime. Manga wise I'll give it to you.
@@jyanbei saying "It’s clearly not hard. " to one of the most contentious topics in all of power scaling is funny
Akira Toriyama has always put the strongest version character at the end of the arc, furthermore, in the manga, there's a scene where Goku watches Super Buu become KID Buu and says out loud "uhhh why is his ki getting bigger?" With Vegeta present. It's power scaling inconsistency at its finest, but the show makes it very clear that KID Buu is the strongest
@@jyanbeinah brody kid buu is boxing a tired goku and vegeta and can’t finish them off😂😂 buuhan was fighting the goat vegito. Kid buu wouldn’t last a second
@th4tevilburrito they got their energy back before they fought. Theres so much more evidence to show Kid buu>Buuhan
Not only that but Goku straight up says he's going ALL OUT on kid buu and he can't beat him even with that
The raging blast menu music in the background is such a banger
Buuhan >>>> Buutenks >>> Buucolo > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku (all out) ~= Kid Buu > SSJ3 Goku (not going all out from the start). The only things that point to Kid Buu being stronger are filler episodes in the anime that are not mentioned before or after they happen in any way (in some cases directly contradicted by canon events before and after) and misunderstood, mistranslated, or literally photoshopped (Kanzenshuu example) statements that don't actually follow feats or logic from what actually happens. Everything else points to Super Buu base being stronger than Kid Buu, making Buuhan many, many times more powerful than Kid Buu.
Typical, they say that they are translation errors because it is the best excuse they have, if Goku has shown after the fusion in repeated ways that he is stronger than before, of course he is, it is not incoherent, it is already something that is being built
Kid Buu > Buuhan (Anime)
Buuhan > Kid Buu (Manga)
When Goku and Vegeta go inside Majin Buu to free everyone, and realize Majin Buu has reverted back to regular Super Buu, Goku says that if they go out now Super Buu will kill them both because he is way stronger. As in, Super Saiyan 3 Goku would get killed by Super Buu. Anything with Goku fighting any variant of Super Buu was anime only filler.
@@erikdavis1646 Exactly, people distort a lot of things to guarantee Kid Buu's position, even the anime itself places Kid Buu below Vegetto, although in the logic of the anime's filler and Goku's speech, Kid Buu was superior to all Buu forms, implying that Kid Buu can defeat Vegetto.
Kid buu > Regular Super Buu all day!
@@isaiahrandolph9841regular superbuu is evil buu + fat buu absorbed. Kid buu is just buu
Good to see ya collabing with Chuck pretty cool and I'm loving your guys opinions and the banter it's good to hear friends go back and forth with a good friendly debate good content guys!! You'll be back at the top in no time Seth
Remember when this fight used to obviously Buuhan? Idk what happened. 😂
One thing kid buu proponents have to answer is this, why would Buu need and spam the absorbing ability if it's so azs that it makes him weaker? Why not just spit the opponent out once he beats them?
@@Trollamollexprob bc that’s what the plot asked for
Toryama glazing mixed with utter delusion.
@ exactly the same guy who made the damn story is wrong about his own story lol
It still is. These new Kids Got Ts all fuck up😂😂
The End.
The Finale.
Hes Done.
Finally Over.
Finally Finished.
Destructive Finish.
Legendary Finish.
This is so dumb and the kid buu glazers won't like this but fuck it... Super Buu is seen fighting fusions and a gohan that exceeds the power of the current ssj3 and kid buu blows up earth and fights goku and vegeta and the only reason y'all say he's the most powerful is because of some dumb ass bogus statement in the manga being the most powerful/ dangerous when the series clearly isn't showing that lol
No I say kid buu is stronger because he took zero combat damage against a ssj3 and goku stated it 3 separate times that he was doing absolutely nothing to kid buu (english) , then the original japanese says kid buu is the "strongest" version of buu , then we have creditable guide book's that say buu's pure form is the most dangerous version of buu. (which is kid buu)
Don’t worry. Pedos hate to be wrong. Especially after stating they’re professionals, like get real.
@@davidgummo3024 Kid Buu took damage. He regenerated from those damage. He cannot regenerate if he is not damaged. Look at Buutenks Vs Gohan, in that fight Buutenks is not damaged. Kid Buu fought evenly with SSJ3 Goku. SSJ3 Goku is too scared to fight Buuhan. Therefore Buuhan>KId Buu.
@@AndiDina88kid buu was holding back against goku
Did you watch the video
TH-cam gotta start putting these in my recommended feed. I keep having to look at your channel for new videos
SETH & CHUCK = KOBE & SHAQ
TLDR: Buuhan > Kid Buu & (it’s not a conversation)
Now Kid Buu over Super Buu? That’s more of a conversation, but Kid Buu loses this one as well lol
Kid Buu > Buuhan
@ you’re on drugs
@@juggernautstark1 you’re coping.
It's really funny how people still debate the obvious, Buuhan was always the strongest, that's not a debate, most of the guides are based on anime, and most of the arguments of Kid Buu's glazers are due to distorted context
If Kid Buu is the strongest, Goku is stronger than Vegetto! I don't know where people insist that Goku and Vegeta randomly got stronger, bro, they haven't received zenkai since the Freeza saga.
Shin is the king of allegations because throughout the saga he overestimated any opponent, including the fact that he has a specific trauma due to Kid Buu, but that doesn't mean that what he says is taken seriously.
Koyama was scolded for responding as if he were the official author of the franchise, so he decided not to talk about these things (and he put it as "I think so" this is not a certainty, it is a possibility).
The Genkidama argument is disgusting because the role of the attack is to take a piece of energy from living beings, not to take everything, including the Genkidama is for the people of Earth to cooperate, not only the Z fighters
Trunks in the Time Chamber mentions to Goten that Gotenks in base form could take on Fat Buu, and let's remember that for them Super Buu was just Buu who grew muscles, even though Piccolo says that his power was greater than that of Fat Buu, therefore Gotenks ssj post-time chamber > Goku ssj3 > Fat Buu
Kibitoshin talking about the absorptions is nothing more than a distortion of the context because he was referring to the absorption giving Buu a heart, that is, in the context of holding on and not in the context of power.
Vegeta's statement is just between him and Goku.
And the anime has many inconsistencies along with self-contradictions, the manga makes it very clear how much the anime creates assumptions, and finally, manga ≠ anime!
People out here performing mental gymnastics over an Anime.
Vegito would have a harder time with kid buu
@@taigaseji Goku in the anime says that Kid Buu would be too little for Vegetto and there are still people who put Goku and Vegeta at that time above him.
When did they alter the scans? They no longer have anything better to invent
@@gogettoblue5357then later regret it and stated he should have fused.Spirit bomb was stated to be the strongest energy ever.
Glad to see the goats collab again.
lets get this channel up there boys!!
I searched for this so you could have put it on the main kudos to the google searchers who wanted to know this and watched
Buuhan the big bro that always bully his Little Bro Kid Buu until the end of the universe lmao
Any videos will do amazing on the main channel cuz your goated
Before I watch this... Super Buu (Buuhan) > Kid Buu. The same ssj3 Goku who stated he could've already defeated Buu if it wasn't for him wanting to share the fun is the same ssj3 Goku who didn't even compete with Buuhan. Now to see our greatest power scalers debate this and I'll be back after hearing the results. Thank you for your work Seth.
Review:
Gracious I was a dumbass. Buuhan's still stronger, but damn. My initial statement reeked of incompetence. I claimed Goku was the same yet he became stronger after the fusion, and that already made my argument shaky. After watching this video, I still believe Buuhan is stronger than Kid Buu, but now I can more accurately debate my claim even against the Kid Buu arguments and I was aware of prior to this video. Before then I would not have been able to debate it if needed without regurgitating the same 3 talking points:
(1) Buuhan is of a different category than the other 4 Buus (Good, Evil, Super, and Kid). This pretty much evaporates the idea of Kid Buu being stronger by the subtitles.
(2) Kid Buu was squaring up with ssj3 Goku, but they desperately needed a fusion to compete with Buuhan (A narrative argument to squash the debate). This can be conflicted because (with my new knowledge) understanding that Goku is stronger and more knowledgeable after Fusion, maybe that same Goku could've competed with Buuhan.
(3) Buuhan is not just a raw power universal threat, but because of Gohan and Piccolo's knowledge this may affect or amplify his combat and better amplify his abilities. This is just an argument I made without actual evidence to back it but maybe someone like Seth could add more substance and context in the realm of knowledge being powerful.
Without the knowledge I had before watching the video I would still be on the left side of the tipping IQ scale. Yet again, Seth and Chuck thank you both for your work.
lol he didn’t even want to fight super buu
So you’re not going to watch the video but make your own headcanon? Lol get out of this comment section.
@@TheMightOfGeburah Bro did not read my comment.
@ YOU EDITED IT!
Goku don't became stronger after fusion
Great video guys thank ya
Chuck’s character corruption arc has been vanquished after I exposed him on the Clyde Face Off stream! 😈
I do like that you bring up the fused minds likely learning from each other. Fusion characters in general seem to benefit from two minds manipulating their ki, as evidenced by their techniques. Seems reasonable that once separated they dont just forget everything and remain unchanged
I think the saibaman is stronger
Majin Kuu?
Seth I need a vid of you and chuck recreating the yes king audios
Super Buu w. Gohan absorbed was stated to be the strongest Buu.
So was Kid Buu
Where is the statement
@@alexdeghost2729no he wasn’t he was the most dangerous not strongest. They said he was getting stronger when he swole up as Super Buu then he transformed into Kid Buu after expelling all absorbed beings
Where's that stated?
@@JT-km6thSupreme Kai's and narrators stated it multiple times
“Outside space” or the vice shout is a lesser feat than stopping and redirecting the Genki Dama
Shin felt the ki of every Boo yet was only ever terrified of Kid Boo's despite knowing Gohan and Gotenks were still viable combatants against him.
He never showed this blatant fear over any other Boo and even felt confident that he could help fight against Bootenks ontop of the fact that he celebrated when Boohan reverted back to Super Boo so there would be no reason for him to only have complete fear for Kid Boo if he's weaker than the aforementioned Boo's.
Vegeta stated he wanted to kill Mr. Boo out of concern that he would give rise to Kid Boo again and that they might all truly die if that happens meaning he doesn't believe anyone is stronger than Kid Boo or that they could pull off a miracle spirit bomb a second time.
Goku says that had Hercule and Mr. Boo not helped, Kid Boo would've killed everyone in the universe which the Daizenshuu and DBS ch1 also reiterate and that they would have to train hard to be able to beat Kid Boo in the future.
In Ch1 of DBS, Goku is shown image training against Frieza and Cell in their strongest forms and then Kid Boo. Whats being conveyed here is that Kid Boo is the strongest Boo which is why Goku is training against him instead of Super Boo and his variations which is consistent with the narrative behind Goku's desire to rematch Kid Boo.
Goku has never once settled for fighting the weakest of anything and is notorious for being dismissive of opponents that arent powerful so the idea that Goku would settle for wanting to rematch one of the weakest Boo's is nonsensical and out of character. The Daizenshuu even points out how Goku "continues to always seek the strongest" and that he "waited for Kid Boo's reincarnate above all else" which are just more blatant indications that Kid Boo was the strongest.
@@Profitin Shin has trauma from Kid Buu, and Gohan, Goten and Trunks were unconscious, his fear was simply Kid Buu spamming destruction around, because he is the most dangerous and emotionless version of the villain. Kibitoshin was just relieved because without the absorption it would give them more chances to win, and seriously? Saying that Kibitoshin was confident against Buutenks and not against Kid Buu does not prove anything, especially because he believed that the fusion would give a considerable increase, but Old Kaioshin refutes him saying that fusion did not increase its power at all.
Vegeta wanted to kill Fat Buu because he was afraid that Buu would get angry and things would happen again, he even refers to monsters in the plural, not specifically, and Vegeta himself knew that he had no chance with any Buu
That's an exaggeration on your part, yes, Mr. Satan and Fat Buu contributed to the victory, but let's remember that if it weren't for Mr. Satan, Goku wouldn't have received enough energy to finish the Genkidama, and if it weren't for Fat Buu, besides Vegeta being killed eternally, Kid Buu would kill Goku before finishing the Genkidama, and about the idea of universal Genkidama, it is something varied because the guides mention that it was the energy of the entire universe, but in the manga, the only ones who cooperated were planet Earth, planet Namek and a part of the Other World
In Super, Goku is fighting Kid Buu only in ssj, and let's remember that canonically, Goku only fought Fat Buu and Kid Buu individually, and also Goku himself later mentions that not even Vegetto would beat Bills, which adds that Goku is not above Vegetto, and let's remember that Vegetto was born to face who? Buuhan! And Daizenshuu implicitly mentions that base Vegetto wouldn't be enough to defeat Buuhan.
"Goku seeks for the strongest" was never about Kid Buu, as Goku commented to Vegeta in the last chapters of the manga, Uub had the same potential as Kid Buu, and even so, Goku only faced the boy in base form, and in the last pages, Vegeta himself reveals that Goku not only wanted to have a disciple, but to have the chance to fight someone with incredible potential. You saying that Goku only did this because of Kid Buu is pointless because Goku has always prioritized a fair fight, even Vegeta hates the idea of facing someone who depends on others to get stronger. Goku himself told Bills that he hated the way he achieved the power of Super Saiyan God with help instead of learning on his own. Kid Buu was different to Goku because he was strong without relying on other means, and this makes sense when on the page before Kid Buu's finale, Goku praises him for fighting individually.
@@gogettoblue5357 they were revived by then and both has given energy to the spirit bomb. They gave all their energy and still couldn’t kill kid buu.
@@Jsipki265 "gave all"
Excuse me? Do you understand the concept of Genkidama? The attack simply consists of taking a piece of energy from each living being, not everything, and where did this idea come from that Genkidama is created with the energy of a few individuals? Vegeta makes it very clear that Earth was supposed to cooperate, Goku just comments that he only received energy from his group, I don't know when this nonsense became an argument!
@@gogettoblue5357 I do understand that dickwad that’s a significant portion of their ki/lifeforce. Ki is life energy at least a part of it. Even if everyone powered up to their maximum that’s still would’ve not been enough to fuel the spirit bomb they needed the earthlings ki as well.
@@gogettoblue5357energy from simple grass was able to hurt vegeta and energy given in spirit bomb is exponetial.Spirit bomb was stated to be strongest energy ever on panel.
you understand spirit bomb yourself.
The bois are back in town!
More dangerous ≠ strongest.
@@gabrielsierra6344 they went over that real quick.
16:34 "The true, pure form of Boo, possessing the greatest of strength, that at last appears."
"Isnt his ki increasing" does tho. Kaioshin saying having the daikaio inside buu weakens and tames him does as well. Most dangerous on its own does not necessarily mean strongest, but it definitely does not imply weaker
@@PiperAtDawn-r7i Yeah, the man that was worried about Vegeta's chances against Pui Pui made a comment about Kid Buu. In the meantime, Goku was noticing him getting weaker. "Hey, isn't he getting weaker?"
@Dracogame wow confident and wrong. Read the manga goku is the one who says isn't his ki getting stronger. Shin is the one that explains after that scene that absorbing the kais, notice the plural, made him weaker.
It really depends on what do you mean by "the truth".
For me, I am using the manga canon or continuity here as that is one that best represents Toriyama's original vision and intend.
The anime is an adaptation of the original manga. It will usually take main story beats and then add things to it. If you follow the main story beats you will find that Buuhan is the strongest even in the anime. But then you have statements in the anime that seemingly contradicts the story beats. Why did that happened?
Because the main story beats from the manga show is that Buuhan is the strongest. But the anime due to some reasons (probably to hype up the last battle for the kids) added in some hype statements that are NOT in the manga to hype up the battle. The statements resulted in confusion among the audiences. Intelligent audiences can feel that something is wrong. Less intelligent audiences cannot even tell that Buuhan is the strongest from the story beats and narrative and since statements are the easiest to digest they just eat them up without thinking.
Professionals or writers who know how the anime companies works straight away know what is up, the animation studio adapted the main narrative but add in their OWN hype statements that is not in the manga.
Hence the anime is “polluted” with fillers and statements that are NOT IN THE MANGA.
So we cannot use anime for the debate here if you are talking about the original intention of Akira Toriyama.
There is a chance some of the writers of the anime intended Kid Buu to be the strongest, but they cannot show it in a convincing way due to reasons like bad writing, budget and deadline constrains.
If you are the type that thinks the truth is based on the intend of the anime writer, then you might have to do some investigative journalism to get more evidence to support that.
If you are the type that thinks the truth is based on the interpretation of the anime by the audience (Death of the Author) then this debate will probably never end. There are evidences that support both sides. No matter what the writing is just bad and confusing in the anime.
If you are the manga purist, then Kid Buu is certainly not the strongest based on power scaling and Authorial Intend Analysis.
This is actually really good logic.
I think the problem is that I highly doubt that Akira Toryiama intended for Super Buu to be the strongest, like, he doesn't plan this stuff ahead, it makes sense for the last villain to be the strongest doesn't it?
I honestly do feel you have to purposefully misread the text to come to the conclusion that Super Buu is stronger. Like Buuhan is debatable, but definitely not Super Buu. Even if he's technically more stronger (which isn't a real thing since these are made up characters who's power levels change all the time in inconsistent manners), it wouldn't make any sense thematically. The anime didn't change that, it simply amplified that thematic consistency with statements, like there's anime filler that was written entirely by Akira Toryiama you know, the anime and manga aren't as seperate as you might think, even if Akira Toriyama isn't 100% in control of everything, that never was the case anyways due to his manga editors/producers.
So yeah, there is not real "truth" to this, mainly because it doesn't actually matter. But if you want to debate it anyways, the best answer is Buuhan > Kid Buu > Super Buu. Some people will argue that Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan, its possible, just not that likely. "Strongest Buu" doesn't necessarily include Buuhan. But the anime seems to imply that SSJ3 Goku got stronger since before despite nothing happening to facilitate that. There's no way to tell any of this for sure, so that's why its always up in the air since you can argue it either way...simply because...
It was never directly stated anywhere who was stronger.
That is all...I think anyways...
Base Super buu is a fusion maybe >.>
I mean the dude transformed into super buu after eating his other self lols.
By that logic, that means Fat Buu is also a fusion due to having South Kai in him.
This means the statement of "Kid Buu is the strongest Buu" now has no meaning. Which begs the question of why it was said in the first place...
@Alienrun True. I mean buff buu, fat buu, buuccolo, Buutenks and Buuhan were all achieved the same way. Why are they not all considered buu fusions? Only super buu was achieved through eating someone and evil buu was made through...splitting? Which would almost be similar to separation...which might make them coming back together as super buu a...fusion?..... xD
So is the lore that all the dudes that sat on the sideline while Seth was being cancelled are now back to leech now that he’s back up? Someone fill me in
no way a buu v buu video in 2024 :O
This brings back good memories.. damn this would get a ton of views
Good lord this debate is getting so stale. You guys need to STOP blindly believing every statement without having it being validated, or else statements like Temari blowing away the universe or Madara destroying everything in the universe needs to be believed. And the thing that seriously freaking annoys the hell out of me is people continue to ignore the elephant in the room EVERY SINGLE TIME! In both the manga AND ANIME, Good Buu fought Kid Buu and held his own, the same Good Buu that got curvestomped to the ground by EVIL Buu. If freaking Evil Buu can dominate Good Buu to that extent, what makes you guys think that Kid Buu can remotely do anything to Base Super Buu?
Jesus, this isn't complicated. Every argument made for Kid Buu is either not consistent with the story or feats, or can be debunked. Super Buu has the more consistent scaling. And that nonsense with their size affecting their power also annoys me. Since when does size matter in DB, these are the same characters that can nuke freaking solar systems with ease, AND even if it was their size, Super Buu also separated into a body the same size as them. But he's also suppose to be at full power? Come on now, that makes no sense, if anything it makes more sense for Goku and Vegeta to be at full power since it was never indicated that it was their size that was the power, literally in the next panel Goku complained about Vegeta destroying the potara earrings. This debate has go on for way too damn long, it's fine to like which ever Buu but this is getting ridiculous. Anyone who's willing to use half their brain and not blindly believe every single dialogue and statement can see that in both the manga and anime, Super Buu is blatantly stronger than Kid Buu. You don't go from screaming through dimensions to screaming out storms and somehow think " Hmmm, yup, screaming out storms is definitely a better feat." It's moronic.🤦♂
Thank you - 100% agree
The Genki Dama doesn’t need pushed/controlled/unleashed, as shown on Namek, it just needs launched; if it’s stronger than the target, the target will be overwhelmed, and if it’s weaker than the target, it the target will overwhelm and redirect it.
Why would goku beg for fusion and duck the fade with super buu, then be confident in his ability against kid buu…..it’s very obvious super buu is stronger. Wtf do yall be talking about
Gohan energy in the spirit bomb wasn’t shit compared to kid buu
Because Kid Buu fight was in the Kaioshin Realm and Buuhan fight was on Earth. SSJ3 was literally made for the Otherworld because time flows differently there. It uses way too much energy to be sustainable on Earth.
Not to mention, the Zenkai boosts and defusion buffs Goku got post Buuhan.
From Dragon Ball chapter #475,
Goku: It's because I used the Super Saiyan 3 earlier... It's something you can only use in the Other World. If you use it in a place where time flows, like Earth, it uses up way too much energy and exhausts you completely...
@@jamesspencer550 wtf is a fusion boost? Where in the cannon is that ever mentioned?? It’s a made up concept to prop up your favorite character. And as for the SS3 and time flow conundrum, that’s also false, because gotenks was able to use SS3 on earth with no problem. No of what you mentioned is part of the actual cannon, it’s just fan base conjecture
@@tomagray1811 Did you even watch the video you're commenting under? They literally went over what the defusion buff is.
And of course they can use SSJ3 on Earth, the point is that it's way more EFFICIENT and POWERFUL when used in the Otherworld compared to when used on Earth. He literally quoted from the Manga so it's all canon lol.
@ I watched it and my statement stands. Nowhere in the canon is it stated that a fusion buff is even a thing, ppl online just made it up. Also, there were no zenkis post fusion, that’s something else that was arbitrarily added to prop up goku and ultimately kid buu. Do you really believe goku ss3 is equal to or past mystic gohan?
The thing about Buutenks and Buuhan is that Piccolo, despite not having the same power as the Saiyans, is still the smartest Z-Fighter and Buutenks used that intelligence for psychological warfare against Gohan. That knowledge can tip the scales in a fight.
Plus, when it comes to “jumping” Kid Buu, I would say that Gohan would have been the best bet to stall Kid Buu until Goku absorbed enough energy for the Spirit Bomb. Plus, a lot people misunderstand the Buu Saga Spirit Bomb for a Universal Spirit Bomb. Because Buu Saga Spirit Bomb was created by all the people of Earth, Z-Fighters included.
Just Saiyan…
This is a simple case of feats vs statements:
Buuhan has better feats and better narrative support from the original manga, Kid Buu just has random statements of dubious canonicity that require complicated, unexplained power ups for other characters (Goku and Vegeta) to be justified.
In the case of Krillin and Yamcha's power ups in the anime filler, they are evident through their feats, with Goku and Vegeta's supposed power ups they have to be made up to justify some statements for Kid Buu that contradict the feats, they are not demonstrated in the series.
There's also anti-feats to consider:
Kid Buu vs Good Buu is a thing, in which Good Buu does just as well as Vegeta, if not better, and we know for a fact that Good Buu is weaker than Super Buu given that he lost to the skinny Pure Evil Buu and then absorbed to create Super Buu.
Meanwhile, Buuhan doesn't have any anti-feats, he only fought Vegetto, the objectively strongest character pre-Super, and in the anime he did even better than in the manga.
Buuhan doesn't even make up BASE vegito's power. Buuhan doesn't have outside space in the manga either. Buuhan never been giving as many or significant statements in regards to his power other than forcing goku to rely on fusion (at the time).
If you even take ONLY the manga, Akira and manga chapter names only refer to KID BUU as the strongest.
Goku says that his KI was only rising when he was transforming.
Even if you take manga only, kid buu even wins out in the statements.
@@lordraiden7397 Bruh, Buutenks calls himself "THE STRONGEST MAJIN" , he is weaker than Buuhan, and he still has 0 anti-feats while Kid Buu struggles against Fat Buu almost the same if not worse than the skinny Pure Evil Buu.
It's also incorrect that Super Buu's ki was only rising, it raised when he became the buff buu post-kai absorption but decreased when he returned to the pure form, hence why Goku and Vegeta were more confident in taking Kid Buu rather than the buff Buu.
But such meager statements are ridiculous when you have such obvious anti-feats.
SSJ3 Goku still beat him up good, and the way Fat Buu did against Kid Buu implies this Goku didin't get an imaginary power boost like you weirdos try to imply.
Also where do you get that Buuhan would get folded easily by base Vegetto in the manga? sounds like headcanon because in the manga Vegetto went straight to SSJ.
Stop basing your entire scaling off of statements that get contradicted by everything else, are you really going off of chapter names of all things, instead of the actual narrative? Not to mention vague toriyama statements, from a guy who forgets plenty of his own series.
Your scaling has 0 basis, you have 0 feats, 0 reputable statements and plenty of anti-feats and statements (from the actual series) that state the contrary on top of being consistent with the feats.
@prometheusmodelow8322 Kid Buu didn't even struggle against fat buu. Literally look at the manga chapters, the dude is smacking around fat buu while getting cheap shotted by Vegeta. What are you on about? Do I need to dissect down the actions within the panels?
If you want to flat out use ONLY statements, Buuhan doesn't have any direct statements that suggest he's the strongest. You only know that though chain scaling
What do you mean Goku beat up Kid Buu good either? Goku was tired and couldn't get past the fact that Buu's regeneration and stamina was far more overwhelming than he anticipated. Kid Buu was straight up playing around with him.
Goku not once commented that his Ki decreased. Vegeta was judging Kid buu's appearance. The next scene after these guys were running away from a fully charged up attack from Buu.
I was up at 4 am, so I overlooked the detail that Vegito went straight to SSJ. But that it doesn't change that Buuhan does not do anything to Vegito at all.
The statements like Kid Buu being the most troublesome of the buus? What about the interview toriyama stating that Goku was the strongest? There are literal guidebooks for the manga that bang over your head how strong Kid Buu is.
So kid buu's best feat is doing something that skinny Buu could already do, and outlasting SSJ3 Goku after a pretty even fight who was relative to the evil Fat Buu, cool, that makes him weaker than Super Buu and especially Buuhan.
"Troublesome" doesn't mean stronger especially given Buu himself became "the strongest Majin" once he became Buutenks, Buutenks knows about his past strenght, and you are just assuming Vegeta is talking about appereance, nothing directly points towards that, they only think that they could take him on at that point not in the buff state, you are merely injecting that meaning to support your narrative that is based on ignoring the mountains of evidence in feats when said asinine interpretation isn't needed because we have the feats to back up the opposite.
Goku is the strongest in random ass toriyama interview? cool, this only means Goku got a zenkai after recovering with the dragon balls during the final push, see how your argument is dead air when it's based on flimsy statements holding it together?
Meanwhile Buuhan has feats and concrete scaling, which Kid Buu doesn't have.
Yes Buuhan doesn't do anything against Super Vegetto, but so hasn't Kid Buu, you are missing the point that Vegetto is clearly the strongest fighter in Z thus losing to him isn't an anti-feat because Kid Buu hasn't surpassed his level in any way shape or form, meanwhile Kid Buu is struggling against Fat Buu and Vegeta getting in his way.
Even though in the manga Fat Buu is more clearly losing the fight than in the anime from what we see of their fight, he's still holding Kid Buu off enough so that they can plot out the entire Genki Dama strategy and put it into motion, this is 100% an anti-feat for him.
Also are any of those guidebooks consistent with each other even? what is the cereal box statement that outshines all of what the original series tells us? lol.
Pushing back the spirit bomb > Anything Buuhan did in the manga.
Stop coping.
its been so long since the last collab between u 2
14:12 This statement says Gohan and Gotenks are enough for kid buu. It also states "Buu returned to it's more violent, but not so strong form". Not sure why you started talking about them ganging up on him.
Are you blind? The image clearly right behind the text is literally all three of them attacking simultaneously. Some of y’all are absolutely unreal.
@@Bread-lh4fl It still makes no sense for him to talk about there being a need of everyone fighting against Kid Buu, when the text is explicitly saying it's not necessary.
PS: Why you getting so mad over anime powerscaling bro.
@@jukilopc85 He just made it seem fair, the guide doesn't even leave room for everyone to jump
Because they underestimated kid buu & later regretted not fusing to take on kid buu
@@jukilopc85 What are you talking about? The illustration clearly displays all three of them simultaneously attacking at once which is blatant evidence of the scan being in reference to all three of them jumping Kid Buu. I agree on it not being necessary since in the canon Goku manages to defeat him without jumping him with Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan, but it's quite evident that the scan clearly refers to the three jumping him.
The last form is always the strongest....
Sincerely,
Every Anime
"This is the birth of the mightiest Majin" is such a bar btw. I remember that was my go to buutenks>kid buu argument
Lmao what about where Goku clearly states “kid buu was far superior than all the other buu until now ?” That’s my argument against folks who feel kid buu isn’t the strongest & final villain.
This is exactly why all these guides and side books simply should not exist or be taken seriously.
Imagine the simplicity of this if we ONLY had to look at the base manga itself.
Kid buu still is stronger we literally see beforehand that super buu gotten stronger then immediately turn into kid buu. Never mind him pushing back the spirit bomb.
@@Jsipki265 Goku straight up said he CANNOT fight Super Buu, but he thought he could wipe Kid Buu in SSJ3. It's really not that complicated. Manga > filler and merchandise.
@@Dracogame 1. goku underestimated him 2. Goku in that same fight said he wished he hadn’t tried to look cool in front of supreme kai and just fused 3. When super buu was reverting back to kid buu in the anime and manga “Chapter 313” goku actually flat out asks “why is his chi getting bigger”
If you take the base manga, you still have statements stating that Kid buu is the strongest. The only thing anime wise buuhan had over kid buu was the outside space feat and that's dwarfed by Kid buu about to one shot grand kais planet.
I'm not even including the fact that inside buus body, they were 1/100th their strength. Akira toriyama even acknowledges goku as the strongest in an interview.
@ what statement in the manga says kid buu is the strongest? In the base manga that straight is never said.
You bringing up author interviews etc is literally exactly the type of side stuff my comment is talking about.
Super Buu slams Kid Buu. Why is this still being talked about? 😭
Super buu was getting bullied by gotenks bruh
Super Buu is garbage. Kid Buu slams
@@KingcarterJ1002kid buu would get slammed too 😂😂
@@KingcarterJ1002what exactly does that mean?
@@fidelgameskid buu lost to weaker enemies.. y'all just love to glaze him because he's crazy 🤦🏿
Kid Buu via statements😌
Also, I feel like no one knows who Evil Buu is.
Evil Buu transforms into Kid Buu via God Ki absorption.
Evil Buu is also Super Buu.
Conclusion, God Ki amp > Fusion
First chapter of DBS.
“The strongest enemy of all time, Majin Buu suddenly*** appeared”
No one saw Kid Buu coming, they were actively trying to stop Fat Buu from ever being a thing. Evil Buu transformed into Kid Buu and they assumed he got weaker talkmbout “We*** can take him”.
Except, Vegeta is hyping Goku up, just for Goku to shut that shi down and saying “nigga we should’ve fused, let’s get Gohan, Gotenks and Fat Buu to fight” just so Vegeta says “nah, we gon need the spirit bomb”.
Keep in mind that Goku was fighting Kid Buu in the Kaioshin Realm, which allowed him to fully utilize the power of SSJ3. This isn’t possible on Earth due to the limitations of energy consumption in a mortal environment.
From Dragon Ball chapter #475:
Goku: It's because I used the Super Saiyan 3 earlier... It's something you can only use in the Other World. If you use it in a place where time flows, like Earth, it uses up way too much energy and exhausts you completely...
This is in addition to the Zenkai boosts and defusion boosts mentioned in the video.
Wasn't he talking about how it makes him run out of time for his one day back?
the streets NEED that piccolo video
Buuhan > Janemba
Facts.
Janemba existing > Buuhan🗿
a lot of the pro-kid buu stuff in the community should be taken with a grain of salt imo
for instance:
05:33 and other guide says the Z warriors clones are just as strong as they were originally. "Guides" (a lot of them aren't even that) are taken way too seriously in the community imo. They shouldnt be granted the same weight as a manga statement.
Like there should be a hierarchy between official manga statements, and magazine bullshit
16:25 not only they do say most dangerous, but they also say he's not the strongest in el manga legendario lmao so that statment doesnt help kid buu at all. That one is a guide btw that should have more weight than some magazines ppl been throwing around
The Genki Dama thing shouldn't be counted as pro-kid buu. If it was direct power then all they'd need is Gohan and not go through all that trouble trying to convince power level 5s in humans to give their energy too.
Super Buu>Kid Buu
About the flea size point in this video, we have to look at Toriyama's intention when he is writing the scene to get to the truth.
No matter how much he’s reverted to normal, with the way we are right now, we’ll definitely be killed…!” Goku made the statement above not because he is small size. He is referring to the fact that right now in their unfused state they will be killed by Super Buu. If Goku can defeat Super Buu then Toriyama will be clear in letting us know that Super Buu is stronger than Goku.
If you think Goku is stronger than Super Buu, but then Super Buu can defeat Goku ONLY because Goku is flea size, then it means this is unfair for Goku. If a fight is unfair, a writer will point is out and explain why it is unfair. A good writer will leave no room for head canon. There are at least 3 times Goku is put in an unfair fight with disadvantages that unfairly make him weaker than his opponent. First time is when Kid Goku fought Yamacha, Goku was defeated but Toriyama clearly stated that the reason Goku lost is because he was hungry. A good writer like Toriyama made that very clear that hunger is the only reason Goku lost. Goku IS stronger than Yamacha. Second time would be Goku vs Android 19. Goku lost mainly due to his heart attack and again that was stated VERY clearly. Third time is when Goku fought Kid Buu. Goku was not aware that his new body has stamina issues. So all 3 times the reason why Goku could not win was CLEARLY stated. That is what writers do. And that is what Toriyama did. If the flea size theory is correct, then Toriyama would make it clear and have them state something like "I could have beaten Super Buu but due to the fact I am flea size now it is not possible." Unless you are saying Toriyama suddenly made a very uncharacteristic fundamental writing mistake and his editors somehow are sleeping on their job as well. Which I find it hard to believe.
I need to make something clear here. I am not arguing against the fact that Goku would lose to Super Buu because of the flea size.
Toriayma did intend for us to know that based on the exchange between Goku and Super Buu in chapter 507.
But when Goku made the statement that he would not be able to defeat Buu it was in chapter 506. So at that point in time it is before the flea size concept is introduced to the audience. The only thing/information that is available to the readers is fusion. So when Goku mentioned “the way they are” it is highly possible that readers that have not read 507 yet will think Goku is referring to their unfused state. Whether their small size actually affects their power level is irrelevant here as in the minds of the readers reading chapter 506 for the first time, they are not introduced to the concept of the flea size nerf yet. So by letting Goku say “the way they are”, readers have no choice but to think Goku is referring to their non fused state.
If Toriyama’s intention is to refer to their “flea size state” instead of “non fused” state then Toriyama made a very basic beginner level writing error, which is assuming the reader have the same knowledge as the writer. If that concept wasn’t introduced yet, a writer cannot assume the readers would know it. This happens often in writing classes and it is due to the fact that even though the story is clear in the writer’s mind, when presenting the story writers may accidentally forget that there are certain things that are not clear for the readers. Hence it is important to have editors. The editors will help the writers be clearer in situations like this.
The fact that both Toriyama and the editor did not mention the flea size nerf in chapter 506 shows us that the original intention of that Goku statement is to talk about their non fused state. This is further reinforced as the very next page Goku is suggesting to do the fusion dance with Vegeta. If the whole important point is “Goku is stronger than Super Buu but now he is weaker due to the flea size nerf” then the whole focus should not be on fusion.
As a writer Toriyama would have to shift the narrative focus to explaining that clearly by showing Goku is thinking of ways to counter the flea size nerf or at least talk about it. Even something like “Maybe the air outside will get me back to normal and I would be able to defeat him then, but now I am too small to use my full power” would show the intend that “Goku is stronger than Super Buu but now he is weaker due to the flea size nerf”.
So in conclusion, Goku is indeed much weaker than Super Buu.
And from that we can scale Super Buu above Kid Buu as Goku managed to keep up with Kid Buu in a fight.
What is bro on about
@@skiburc2252 Just a simple authorial intend analysis to show that Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu.
Toriyama DID tell us why Goku cant defeat Super Buu, its because of the state hes in. Whats in question is if its in reference to fusion or their size. He doesnt have to specifically use the word size and its very easy to interpret the state their in being in reference to Size seeing as we KNOW they are significantly smaller. If anything this statement is indicative of the idea that size nerfs power sinces hes attributing the reason as the state hes in(i.e hes small).
Yea ur completely right, when looking at the dailogue from goku it’s always in reference to fusion. Infact goku didn’t know about the nerf till super buu pointed it out, and if ppl didn’t read the daizenshu guide they themselves wouldn’t know about the nerf till super buu points it out. not to mention goku talks about losing outside of buus body not inside. Also he thought to do the fusion dance inside buus body so gogeta would’ve been tiny and nerfed as well yet that isn’t a concern for goku.
@@SuckYaMudda Read my post again, If your version is correct then as a good writer Toriyama should have make that clear to us. Like how it made it clear with Kid Goku vs yamacha and SSJ Goku vs Andriod 19. On top of that the narrative focus of that chapter is fusion. So from a writer's perspective, using authorial intend analysis we can easily tell Toriyama's intention is to tell us that Goku is thinking they will need fusion to defeat Super Buu. Goku would not be able to win vs Super Buu regardless of his size.
Mazinger: You could not live with your own failure…..Where did that bring you? Back to me
It is funny how 99% of the community will try and clown on anyone who says ssj3 Goku>ultimate Gohan or kid Buu>Super Buu. A lot of people have accepted something for so long they will refuse to believe they can even possibly be wrong.
We clown on you because you can't read and yet think you are right.
@@Dracogame Lol, yet you would lose to me or Seth in a debate on this topic.
@@weeaboo-warrior All a debate proves is you're more skilled at debating, not that you're correct. Otherwise, science would be decided by debates, not by peer reviewed papers and evidence.
@@TheAsj97 I agree, but don’t you think it’s hypocritical to clown people because they think they misinterpreted a fictional story if they can’t even win a debate on the topic they are clowning them for? With fiction you can’t prove things empirically with scientific testing, all we have is logical arguments to make.
seth and chuck vid in 2024
Buuhan? Kid Buu isn’t stronger than regular Super Buu and Goku isn’t stronger than Gotenks.
You can’t just ignore Goku being asked if he can beat Super Buu and immediately saying that even if he and Vegeta worked together they would lose whilst freeing everyone from Buuhan.
Gotenks would draw with Superbuu, maybe beat him, and Gohan would demolish him mid difficulty. Goku is not hanging with either.
Kid Buu is stronger than Goku and Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks
@ absolutely no way can Goku be stronger than either.
@@JT-km6th Zenkai
@@ItsB1998from what? What attacks gave him a Zenkai boost that big?
@@ItsB1998You have no proof of Zenkai, no one mentioned a zenkai, no powerlevels, no one mentioned they seem different. Literally NOTHING. Please give me evidence of a zenkai between the Buuhan and Kid Buu fights. 8’ll wait…
The goat posts common sense 🔥🔥💯💯🗣️🗣️
Ur forgetting kibito kai's statement.
Absorbing good hearted beings limits buu's power.
Put it like this. Put a scale for buu's OG power at 10. Put then put a limiter scale starting at 0 and put an absorption bonus also starting at 0.
When buu absorbed south kai say his own power got limited to an 8 but he gained an absorption bonus of 1.5
He then absorbed dai kaio which is a being of pure, pure good.
Say this was a major debuff on his original power putting it at a 3 and the absorption tallies up to make it a 6.5 total.
Then buu separates. Good buu is a 2.5, evil buu due to not having as much dai kaio influence is a 5
Super buu becomes a 7.5 because the goodness has become more surpressed and say his og power itself is restored by 1 whole point.
Then super buu absorbs gotenks and piccolo. This actually limits his original power again but the fusion of gotenks is strong enough to raise it so say an 8.5
Same thing with gohan. It limits his own power further but that is offset by gohan's strength. Making buuhan either a 9 or a 9.5 because gotenks split up.
So to say that kid buu could or is the strongest buu might be very correct iff the original power got surpressed a decent amount every time a being with a good heart got absorbed.
Counterpoint: shin was a moron😂
I could be misremembering, but as I recall, it was only the Dai Kaio's innocence that reduced Buu's power, not him absorbing good hearted beings in general. Personally, I still do think that Buu with Gohan absorbed is the most powerful form of Buu. However, I also think that that version of Buu isn't as much stronger than the others as many people think. I believe that absorption is linear power increase. Buu absorbs someone, and he just adds their power to his own.
So, basically you have Gotenks vs Super Buu, where they are more or less fighting on an even playing field, though with a small advantage to Gotenks.
Then you have Gohan handling Super Buu pretty easily, but he isn't just straight up one shotting him, so I put Gohan at double Buu's power, give or take. The give or take doubled power is also supported by the next point.
Then Buu absorbs Gotenks, doubling his power, and is pretty close to comparable to Gohan, but has the advantage of perfect regeneration, or in other words, infinite stamina. So, they were both going all out, which means Gohan got winded very quickly, while Buu can't get winded, so Buu proceeded to put the beat down on Gohan relatively quickly.
So that brings us Buu with Gohan absorbed, which makes him about 3x Super Buu's power (Super Buu's power plus Gohan's 2x Super Buu's power). Given, there are Trunks, Goten, and Piccolo in there as well, but lets be honest, their contribution is negligible at absolute best.
lastly we have Kid Buu, where the series directly tells us that Super Buu's power starts increasing instead of decreasing when fat Buu is removed. So, if you believe that Buu with Gohan absorbed is the most powerful, then that means Kid Buu is somewhere between slightly above Super Buu's power, and slightly under 3x that. However, if you believe that Kid Buu is stronger than Buu with Gohan absorbed, a 3x + multiplier is really not a long shot in a series where characters are multiplying their power by 50x on a whim.
@ikeillue8385 I get ur point and it did cross my mind when making the argument. It is just that gotenks and gohan are so vastly powerful that it offsets it. It is not that all absorptions make buu weaker in total. Gohan has a very pure heart but his power is so high that it offsets how much it limits him. Now if the fusion of did not wear off then he'd for sure probably be stronger than kid buu but just not with his own power and only the powers gained from absorption. It all depends on how big the original's power was in comparison because at first goku and vegeta thought they could handle him yet a few moments later they started doubting themselves because they couldn't tell anymore if he was stronger or weaker than before. Same thing with super saiyan 3 goku's statement which goku, and people working on the manga, returned that statement later to saying it was no use because goku's body could not go beyond his limit at that point. I totally get why there is an argument for buuhan to be stronger, I was just making a point why it COULD be that kid buu, with his full original power restored, is stronger.
@@mclordawesome That is basically the point I was making, except for the fact that I don't think its necessary to assume that all absorptions have a negative modifier on Buu's power. Like I said, I'm pretty sure that the Supreme Kai was a very specific and unique case. But based on what we see from Super Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan, the difference between Buu before and after absorbing Gohan, can be even less than a 3x difference, which again is not unreasonable to say that Kid Buu gained that much of a boost from Super Buu, when you have 20 and 50x multipliers being thrown around all over the place.
@ikeillue8385 Whatever the true case may be. I think if a official guide, narration, manga and statements from even goku make it clear that he might the strongest buu then it should be considered true because we fans can't overrule any of that. We don't make the truth. The truth is what is given to us.
Say if buuhan was stronger then there is also a factor for potential. Buuhan does NOT get gohan's potential. He just uses him as a power source and to get intellect yet he does not possess gohan's dna at all. He relies on stolen power while kid buu relies solely on his own. Also kid buu's regeneration is better and he seems to possess near infinite stamina so it would only be a matter of time in a hypothetical fight between them before he catches up and outgrows buuhan because buuhan would not wipe him out that easily at all.
This collab is like my divorced parents getting back together 😮💨😮💨
Chuck El Mexicano 🗣
Whats the background music?
I’ve always tried to meet in the middle on this topic by saying that Kid Buu is the strongest unfused Buu, but Buuhan is the strongest Buu overall.
So I would rank them like this:
1. Buuhan
2. Buutenks
3. Buucilo
4. Kid Buu
5. Buff Buu
6. Super Buu
7. Fat Buu
8. Evil Buu
9. Fat Buu (Divided from Evil Buu)
What but why did you put super buu just absorbing goten trunks and piccolo puts him above super buu 😭 do you think the difference between them is that small 😭😭
So whats you thoughts on Ultimate Gohan vs SSJ3 Goku
Goku is stronger, but you can argue Gohan has a chance if he gassed goku out in a fight.
Goku and Vegeta had to fuse to beat superbuu but against kid buu they did not have to fuse.One can use common sense superbuu was stronger.Buutenks demolished SS3 goku without effort but Kid Buu was struggling against SS3 goku.
Goku and Vegeta got Zenkai boosts and defusion buffs post Buuhan when fighting Kid Buu (as stated in the video as well) but most importantly, Kid Buu was fighting SSJ3 in the Kaioshin Realm (which is in the Otherworld) and Buuhan/Fat Buu were fighting SSJ3 on Earth.
SSJ3 was literally made for the Otherworld because time flows differently there. It uses way too much energy to be sustainable on Earth.
From Dragon Ball chapter #475,
Goku: It's because I used the Super Saiyan 3 earlier... It's something you can only use in the Other World. If you use it in a place where time flows, like Earth, it uses up way too much energy and exhausts you completely...
@jamesspencer550 Well Goku tried to restore his SS3 while letting Vegeta fight kid Buu and failed to restore his SS3 powers.
The random Sparking Zero use for the Broly agenda is peak
I’m probably going to get flamed for this but in the Kai Dub Supreme Kai says that Super Sayian 3 Goku and Kid Buu fight at a level he’s never seen before and Supreme Kai watched Vegito and Buuhans entire fight
And in Supers Manga Dende says Kid Buu was Goku’s greatest adversary.
Vegeta also says the same thing in the sub and dub, which is that Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Kid Buu had unbelievable power that was "off the scale"
But then in the manga both Goku and Vegeta state they stand no chance at all against Base Super Buu, but Goku is confident he could kill Kid Buu
Buuhan is literally Super Buu + Ultimate Gohan + Piccolo + Goten + Trunks
No way is Kid Buu laying a finger on Buuhan, especially when Goku pissed his pants at the thought of fighting Buutenks
The only debate that's really valid is Super Buu vs Kid Buu (no absorption)
@@po72644did you watch the video muted ? 😂
@@po72644they said “if we go out this we’ll lose” due to them being the size of a flea 😂 and also they say kid buu is holding back on them and is stated as a fusion level threat
The anime includes lot of fluff like that to hype up Kid Buu. Lots of cool buzz words and stuff to make him seem like the strongest. But in the manga, Goku says that neither him nor Vegeta would beat Super Buu, even after they remove Gohan and the other absorptions from him. Yet, Goku felt good about beating Kid Buu by himself at SSJ3. So that’s a pretty wide gap in strength.
This much is clear. SJJ3 Goku never had a chance against Pure Buu. He was playing with Goku the entire time. He took Mr. Buu on with same level of sincerity.
I'm shocked that this thing is still a debate. The english community has a huuge differences in arguments and points that i never thought would ever have to analise.
This whole thing can be solved with one Character, Gotenks.
How strong is Gotenks? Well, we have to see how Strong both Goten and Trunks are:
Goten and Trunks have feats that puts them around the level of Gohan and Vegeta's base form, they are weaker of course, but the gap isn't that big (we can see both Gohan and Vegeta struggle to response the speed of the kids, then overcome the attack, that means the kids Strength is no joke even for them).
Now, the fusion works in this way, with the fusion a new person is born, is not any of the previous persons.
The power of this new individual is the maximun power of the users and then a multiplication (much or less, the fusion doesn't have an universal multiplication number unfortunatly), this means that Base Gotenks is way stronger than Goten SSJ (we could say that Gotenks could be around an hypotetical SSJ2 Goten).
Goku is way stronger than Goten, we could say that Goten has to go SSJ2 (hypotetical) in order to beat Goku's SSJ.
This would put Gotenks Base form above Goku's SSJ easily, this would mean that even if Goku SSJ3 represents an x8 to his SSJ, Gotenks SSJ is x50 times stronger than Goku's SSJ.
It's LITERALLY imposible that Goku could defeat Super Buu, because that would mean Goku would recieved and x400 Power Up out of nowhere.
Kid Buu is stronger that Good Buu, i would say it's equal to Evil Buu. Then Super Buu it's above all of them.
Your joking when they fight vegeta he’s was in training and trunks barely gets a knick on vegeta because he was holding back. Dont even compare that. Base vegeta is so much stronger than ssj trunks.
Sure except the thing is you pulled most of what you said completely out of your ass so none of it makes sense, and yes goku did indeed get a massive power up before the kid buu fight
In what universe is ssj2 Goten stronger than SSJ Goku? Goku’s not even twice as strong as him???
@@ssjdrink is much stronger then yet Android 18 was having trouble to fight againts them, the same 18 that was able to defeat Vegeta SSJ in the past, and even if Vegeta's SSJ was almost as twice as strong than before, Trunks SSJ is at least strong as Vegeta's SSJ from the beginning of the Androids arc (or even stronger because Goten and Trunks doesn't seems to have the side effects of the transformation).
Either way is impossible to Base Vegeta (Buu) get as strong as his Super Saiyan from the Android Saga.
PD; Gohan says that Goten could surpass him if he get more neglected. The manga said that these 2 were the strongest people in Earth after Goku got back to the afterlife and Gohan's dissapearance (putting them above Piccolo). The Daizenshuu 2 mentions that Goten SSJ is at the same level of Gohan's SSJ, and all of this previous to the Time Chamber training were Piccolo said that they got stronger.
@@skiburc2252 Goku didn't get any power boost, he was still not able to defeat Super Buu and suggested the fusion because of that. You are saying this because you want Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu but no, Kid Buu is the second/third weakest form of Majin Bu.
I glad you guys made up. Seth beat the allegations
Super buu is stronger
Kid buu slaps the dog shit out of buuhan lol. It definitely took me a good number of years to come around. But if you're getting to the higher, non "normies" level of powerscaling and philosophy, then the answer becomes pretty obvious. Also i welcome a full comment section jumping. I wanna hear what a bunch of normies have to say 😂.
Agreed. One of the most obvious pieces of evidence is the following for Kid Buu.
16:34 The true, pure form of Boo, possessing the greatest strength, that at last appears.
Dende (in DBS Manga to Goku): "That's right. The Evil Majin Buu was the greatest enemy you ever faced, and when you cleansed his soul, he was reborn as a human."
Kid buu is definitely stronger
🤓
I always found it odd that kidbuu pushed back a spirit bomb powered by ultimate gohan and all the earthlings, and goku still needed supersayian to beat him. Like why would gohan give the most mundane amount of energy to power up the spirit bomb, if hes still stronger than kidbuu in order for it to not be strong enough to kill buu. Good buu has to be pretty strong to then doesnt he, he was taking an ass wooping, and he did better against kid buu then he did against evil buu
The argument that the Genki Dama contains Gohan's Ki therefore It shows that Gohan is weaker than Kid Buu is flawed. This is due to the lack of understanding of how Ki works.
I will refer Genki as base ki or base energy that a fighter has. But that base energy can be charged up or "exploded" into higher Ki. I call that battle Ki. This is not head canon but something Piccolo talks briefly about.
When android 20 absorbed Piccolo's energy or Ki, he thought that he would win as he already has Piccolo's Ki in him. But he still lost, and Piccolo explained that when they fight they can charge and explode their Ki which greatly enhancing their fighting abilities. Hence the energy taken by Android 20 is not really that big.
Similarly the Genki that was taken from Gohan is not his "charged Ki" or battle Ki. You can tell that it is not the same type of Ki. If it is the "Ki" that the Kid Buu supporters are thinking of, then Goten and Trunks would be sending their "charged Ki" while they are in Super Saiyan form. But no, they did not power up, the Ki taken is Genki or their base Ki that is uncharged. So it is unfair to say that the Ki taken from Gohan represents Gohan's full power/energy level.
The reason is that the editor wanted that ending. Gohan was not allowed to resolve the conflict because Goku sells more. If he was, they would have used the last wish to transport him on the Kaioshin's planet.
Doesn't make kid buu stronger.
On top of that, the mechanism behind the Genkidama is weird. Why would it be tied to Goku's stamina? Because they needed to drag the ending one more chapter.
Kid Buu slams Buuhan
Kid buu couldn't even solo a weaker ssj3 goku foh 😂😂😂
@@HavokUnbound Kid Buu wasnt even trying against SSJ3 Goku
@fidelgames says who?
@@fidelgames how would you know? Did kid buu say himself that he was "holding back" lol if he couldn't solo goku then foh with that narrative 🤦🏿
@@HavokUnbound Because Goku himself confirmed that Buu was toying with him, when Goku said he messed up in destroying the potara, Kid Buu was dancing and playing around.
Gohan buu>gotenks buu>kid buu>super buu>evil buu>fat buu
16:34 The true, pure form of Boo, possessing the greatest strength, that at last appears.
Dende (in DBS Manga to Goku): "That's right. The Evil Majin Buu was the greatest enemy you ever faced, and when you cleansed his soul, he was reborn as a human."
@@jamesspencer550Evil Majin Boo is the name given to base Super Boo, so if you count Kid Boo or Pure Majin Boo among the Evil Majin Boo forms it's just Dende saying generically that Boo was the strongest villain Goku ever faced. Another problem you have is that if you're going to quote Super, you have to acknowledge that Pure Majin Boo either wasn't capable of using all of Dai Kaioshin's divine ki or couldn't use it, Goku says they'll "definitely be done in" if they "go out like this" while they're inside base Super Boo, meaning he isn't certain against Boo either way, implying he's either relative to Super Boo or slightly weaker pre-fusion. Whereas he is like "yes we did it at least this way we might be able to manage something" after he reverts to Pure Majin Boo or Kid Boo, which could mean that without the Dai Kaioshin power he's relative to base Super Boo and with some of it he's slightly above Ultimate Gohan (the magic in Boo's body could be a factor) with post-fusion SS3 Goku being relative to Ultimate Gohan as implied by the Viz release that said that Boo was "gaining power on par with SS3 Goku" when he absorbed Ultimate Gohan which I take to mean that at some point he and Goku were relative and that the guidebook they mentioned just talked about Ultimate Gohan being stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 generally, not a fused Super Saiyan 3 like Gotenks (even though Gohan obviously was stronger).
As for Goku inside Boo's body and the fake Ultimate Gohan filler, Gohan's body was flickering in and out of existence during the fight and all of Boohan's thought forms reverted to cake in the end... the point is that the fake Ultimate Gohan might have been relative in power to the real thing but couldn't access all of his power because he was being limited by Boohan's mind. Seth already made this point in a previous video and due to the fact that Goku thinks Gotenks and Gohan could make a solid difference against Pure Majin Boo collectively when everyone else was too knackered to fight just goes to show that objectively speaking (even if he has buried power surpassing or simply rivalling Super Vegetto) he is weaker than Bootenks, since the Elder Kaioshin said that even if Goku and Gohan worked together they still wouldn't win and even if you discount that Boohan was far above Bootenks... Pure Majin Boo aka Kid Boo might have power within him to be the strongest but if he can't objectively and fully wield it, it doesn't really mean very much, because it means that in practical terms absent the full partly inaccessible Dai Kaioshin portion of divine ki, Kid Boo is objectively weaker than Boohan and Goku is only really the absolute strongest in the Universe after Porunga replenishes his ki, which likely gives him a zenkai boost!
This is accurate, Pure Majin Boo aka Kid Boo can only be argued as the strongest by virtue of divine ki he can't access because of the magic within him. Objectively speaking in the real world Boohan and even Bootenks are stronger...
This topic is always going to be so volatile just because of the sheer differences between anime vs manga (one of the big negatives about the addition of so many edits and filler in the anime imo) and all of the various databooks and guides and shit. The fact that neither the anime filler/changed scenes nor the various guides/databooks are really written by Toriyama at all and the fact Toriyama was infamous for being really forgetful makes it that much worse.
Toriyama: I consider the TV Animation to exist in one dimension with the manga. I have what I call Canon, which is the TV series and the original, printed comic edition works that are directly tied into continuity.
Anime and manga are one continuity that exist in the exact same dimension, so said Toriyama. They are both tied directly into continuity. You don't know what you're talking about at all. Just like Seth and people like him. Go tell Toriyama he is wrong about his own Canon that he decides is Canon. You people never know what you're talking about, but you act so sure that you do. You have no business having any confidence in anything you say about Dragonball. Not now, nor ever.
Kid buu has godki though so I think he slams everyone but vegito
He could barely slam Goku SSJ3.
Bruh. Its crazy how Kid Buu's design is revenge, for the no-nose characters, and he's the most deadly one of the Z villians.
Because he’s the final & strongest version.
@Wavy_Godd96 Nah. Buuhan, Buutenks and Super Buu are probably stronger than Kid Buu. Goku fought Kid Buu evenly for awhile, but he wasn't as confident against Buuhan or Buutenks.
@ No he did not, Goku was knocked out of SSJ3 twice by kid buu.
@Wavy_Godd96 Your point? Goku still thought he could take Kid Buu.
He fought Buutenks as a last resort. He wasn't even able to hurt him in any real way. Buutenks had the upperhand in the fight.
Against Buuhan he knew the only way to win was fusion. Which is why he teleported to Vegeta as soon as he sensed him return to the world of the living.
It goes (weakest to strongest): Fat Buu, Grey/Evil Buu; the next is complicated because Goku seemed willing to fight a depowered Super Buu (w/ Piccolo active), or at least let Gohan do it.
That being said I think Kid Buu is at least comparable to Super Buu. Then, Buutenks followed by Buuhan.
@ you just proved my point goofy, you stated Goku “thought” he could take kid buu, well we know thats true because he even mentioned using the fusion again for kid buu however they had to resort to “others” or should I really say they had to rely on the dragon balls specifically due to the fact that they were already in over their heads in dealing with pure Buu or kid Buu, kid Buu is the final villain in the at for a reason not because he’s the smallest and has destructive power but simply because he’s the original form and the most powerful form of the Buus this is stated by Goku and Vegeta and even the Kai’s. Toriyama stated he wanted to go against everybody’s notion of bigger and decided to make the villain smaller but even more powerful because it goes against the norm. But yeah
If we go out here like this we'll get messed up man 😂😂
Wasn't ur main channel build on content like This
I want a what if 17 was there in the Buu saga with what we know now. I hate that all we got pre super was his peak fight in Z, and the worst main fight in GT where his personality is practically gone, and he’s under some mind control so it wouldn’t show prefusion. The dub I’ll actually give some credit too cause he seems to at least talk more. Weird tangent but the fact he hasn’t interacted with Buu is wild.
That seems to be an issue with Buu more than 17. They seem to don’t know what to do with him or if they do it doesn’t actually amount to anything MajUub
Kid Buu is weaker than regular super buu let alone buuhan. Unless you somehow think ssj3 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, which he isn’t.
Akira Toriyama has always put the strongest version character at the end of the arc, furthermore, in the manga, there's a scene where Goku watches Super Buu become KID Buu and says out loud "uhhh why is his ki getting bigger?" With Vegeta present. It's power scaling inconsistency at its finest, but the show makes it very clear that KID Buu is the strongest
1:53 doing more then the writer himself
It's weird that the daizenshu says Goku at full power can't beat Kid Buu because in the manga at least he never goes full power against him. Strange indeed.
Majin Buu -> Southern Kaioshin-absorbed Majin Buu -> Dai Kaioshin-absorbed Majin Buu
That’s one line of one Majin Buu.
This Majin Buu has existed long before the story of Dragon Ball began.
The Dai Kaioshin-absorbed Majin Buu is weaker than the original, and becomes even weaker when he expels his evil/wrath/rage, which manifests into another, new Majin Buu - the evil grey Buu.
The evil grey Buu -> Super Buu -> Gotenks-absorbed Super Buu -> Piccolo-absorbed Super Buu -> Gohan-absorbed Super Buu
That’s the new line of Majin Buu, who was birthed and only existed during the Buu Saga itself.
In order from strongest to weakest:
1) Pure Buu/Kid Buu
2) Buuhan
3) Buutenks
4) Buucolo
5) Super Buu
6) Fat Buu
7) Grey Buu
8 ) Good Buu
* Buff Buu can be above Buuhan or below Buucolo. All known for sure is above Super Buu and below Kid Buu *
If you guys want some more information and data book scans, email me. 🔥
That said, the heroes scaling is important as well.
Ranks:
1) Vegetto
2) Goku
3) Gohan
4) Gotenks
5) Vegeta
6) Others
Totality ranks:
1) Vegetto
2) Kid Buu
3) Buuhan
4) Buutenks
5) SSJ3 Goku
6) Ultimate Gohan
7) Buucolo
8 ) Super Buu
9) SSJ3 Gotenks
10) Fat Buu
11) SSJ2 Vegeta
12) Grey Buu
13) Good Buu
14) Others
* Buff Buu, again, would be below Kid Buu and above Super Buu, certainly, but unknown compared to Ultimate Gohan to Buuhan. Could be below Gohan. Could be above Buuhan. *
Wild that you’ve been debating this for 10 years and are still wrong with the conclusion, lol ✊🏼
Ok buddy, what's the righr conclusion then?! :D
(Just teasing! Don't take it personally! lol :P)
This was the best video on this topic so far. With all the guides and statements saying Kid Buu is the strongest, and nothing in the manga directly negating such it is reasonable to say Kid Buu is the strongest. But with how events went chronologically and by feats Buutenks and Buuhan appear much stronger than Kid Buu. In the anime, besides the statements clearly going towards Kid Buu, Buuhan literally destroys him in every way with feats, if anything if we removed the statements in the anime but left everything else in tact there would be no doubt Buuhan is way stronger than Kid Buu. However in the manga it is totally different. Buuhan couldn't even touch Vegito and his only offense was the candy beam which backfired anyways, to claim Buuhan displayed anything scaling above Kid Buu in that fight would be disingenuous and claiming Kid Buu would somehow do worse than someone who didn't even touch Vegito in the first place is just as disingenuous. When Kid Buu appeared, the kai's obviously seen him as a fusion level threat similar to Buuhan and literally multiple times nag Goku and Vegeta for not fusing (Elder Kai specifically). Goku and Vegeta only decide not to fuse because Kid Buu is also not fused/absorbed with anyone, nothing of a power drop is mentioned, though likewise no significant power increase is mentioned either so claiming Kid Buu scales a considerable amount over Buuhan would just be disingenuous also.
Also, claiming Kid Buu being the most troublesome was Elder Kai just saying he's the most erratic and crazy and it's not about power scaling is just made up fan theory. Maybe Toriyama thought that Elder Kai saying that statement about Kid Buu was sufficient enough to warrant Kid Buu as the strongest Buu rather than the thousands of times the anime tries to make that same point with a lot of verbose language to add. And as for Goku's Super Buu statement, even if the 100x debuff is an anime only thing, the fact that Goku and Vegeta are nerfed in a gimmicky situation inside Buu's body does not equate to a straight up one on one battle, so even if Goku went SSJ3 against Super Buu inside his body and lost(Goku didn't even go SSJ3 against Super Buu when him and Vegeta were in deep trouble), you cannot compare and scale that situation to a straight up one on one battle that was Gohan vs Super Buu with no gimmicks or tricks involved that would call into question the power of Goku and Vegeta. Claiming Ultimate Gohan scales above SSJ3 Goku based off these events is disingenuous and false, and people who scale Super Buu above Kid Buu only have this faulty evidence to go off of, this argument only works off the premise that Goku is talking about a hypothetical straight forward 1v1 against Super Buu despite the setting and situation being totally opposite.
Also, no considerable power increase from Fat Buu to Super Buu is mentioned, Super Buu is only mentioned having a body more suitable for fighting and being able to sense ki because of that. Super Buu was just more direct threat because of his new body rather than the Fat Buu who was just wandering around earth. The only time Buu gained considerable power above the rest of the cast (excluding Vegito) was from Buutenks onwards, anything prior Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks could take care of, and by extension Goku could also take care of. Goku saying he could have beat the Fat Buu also reinforces this as Goku only had 3 times where he faced Buu one on one, Fat Buu where he is superior, Buutenks where he almost certainly loses and Kid Buu where he 100% lost with proof.
In the end I'll say, in the anime Kid Buu is the strongest 100% just based off statements hammered home so many darn times lol, in the manga though I'll say Kid Buu > = Buuhan/Buuhan > = Kid Buu are both applicable as no direct decrease in power is mentioned with Kid Buu, only made up stories by the fandom.
Edit: I didn't give enough credit to the creators of the video for finding some guides and statements that I missed. That Gotenks being the strongest one is my first time seeing it, I'm sure it's an anime exclusive one but it further proves that there is no statement or even an intention of ever making the claim that SSJ3 Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Goku has only ever commended them for gaining the ability of SSJ3 in a short amount of time while he has to train for years in the afterlife to do so.
Well written stuff but isnt the fact that they didnt have to fuse tell you that buuhan is stronger?
@@latima123ify I mean, I already addressed why they didn't fuse. The fact that Kid Buu himself was not fused/absorbed with anyone plus Vegeta's insisting of not wanting to fuse with Goku again were the two main factors about why Vegito did not go vs Kid Buu hence the two quotes by Goku "It's not our style" and "We like to rely on ourselves. Buu is on his own now too". Direct quotes as to why SSJ3 Goku went against Kid Buu, and then even later in the fight when Goku is losing to Kid Buu, Goku then says they should have used the potara and that he thought the fight would go better than it actually did. So then this confirms that like Buuhan, Kid Buu at the very least requires Vegito to beat.
Now usually I will lowball Kid Buu after we establish that Vegito would be required to beat him since I have no evidence to scale him any considerable amount over Buuhan. Though like what was shown in the video, the guide states the spirit bomb as the ultimate power possibly even being stronger than Vegito, I take Goku's word that Vegito too could have easily beat Kid Buu since once Goku's power was restored Kid Buu was no match for the spirit bomb.
So then using these direct statements from both the manga and the daizenshuu, we know no single Z fighter alone was a match for Kid Buu, just like Buutenks and Buuhan. Now because there is no direct statements referencing Buutenks or Buuhan as the strongest after the fact of Kid Buu's appearance, we can't objectively scale Kid Buu against Buutenks or Buuhan without our own interpretation of the story, which can be subject to be false, hence all the fantasy power scaling done by the fandom. Which is why I say Kid Buu > = Buuhan if we go by statements made even if we simply go by the manga and daizenshuu or Buuhan > = Kid Buu if we go by the chronological events in the manga.
And lastly I'll add, the anime made a lot of filler content that makes scaling a whole different continuity which even contradicts itself a lot in comparison to the manga. For example like I said earlier, in the manga Vegito vs Buuhan was completely one sided, but the anime really had Vegito even about to lose in some portions of the battle. The anime also has Goku saying he could have beaten Kid Buu already but was just trying to act cool, nothing of the sort is said in the manga. Though less significant, the anime also has Goku SSJ3 vs Buutenks which was just a face off in the manga, with this one though I don't think it veers off from manga as much as the other two examples. But yet despite all these things occurring we are still expected to Kid Buu is the strongest Buu despite evidence showing otherwise, which is probably why they repeatedly just state Kid Buu is the strongest to try to correct their mistakes or something. Even though Goku is the strongest in the end of the Buu saga(whether anime or manga), the anime seems to have a clear bias to make Goku appear even stronger than he actually is, because with all the given evidence we would have to come to the conclusion Goku got a crazy zenkai boost putting him near Vegito level based off the anime. In the end though we can just enjoy it for what it is, if they say Kid Buu is the strongest then he is the strongest.
Ur wrong about the difference between fat buu and super buu being small, it was a huge difference in power. Also for the goku super buu thing goku refers to losing outside buus body so no nerf / size issue
@@zubairbaig7617 Yeah, and compare that with how Goku reacted to Buu absorbed with Piccolo absorbed in a straight up one on one scenario with no gimmicks involved as a SSJ3. Buu was sweating at the prospect of having to face either SSJ3 Goku or Ultimate Gohan which is why he panicked and absorbed Gohan to become stronger than Goku. When Goku was saying that he was referring to his and Vegeta's current state saying "we'll get killed going out like this", and Goku's inability to pierce Super Buu inside further demonstrates the nerf they had placed on them. And then even in trouble inside Buu, only resorted to using regular SSJ, a totally different scenario than Gohan if you trying to make the argument to scale Gohan over Goku with this alone.
Like I said, Super Buu is stronger but there is no proof of him being that much stronger than Fat Boo, only gained abilities. And since there is no proof of SSJ3 Gotenks being stronger than SSJ3 Goku except made up stuff, we can say Super Buu is not much stronger than Fat Buu who Goku could have beaten already.
Edit: I'll say though, regardless of the arguments made, the inside Super Buu statement by Goku is kind of just bad writing that sort of does leave it up to the readers interpretation for whether Goku is referring to being normal sized or nerfed when exiting Buu. However what we can confirm from the situation is that Goku had no intention of going SSJ3 against regular Super Buu as we saw when Buu popped up in front of them, either due to its fatiguing nature, Goku protecting Vegeta's ego as Vegeta was mad at him hiding SSJ3 from him not long ago or most probably the true answer Toriyama just didn't want to use SSJ3 in that time. So under no circumstances can we equate that statement with a straight forward 1v1 SSJ3 Goku vs Super Buu when even Buu/w Piccolo was scared of him as a SSJ3 when everything was on a level field.
@@transcendsociety132 The buicolo scene ur referring to u is only presented that way in the dbz dub. But in the dbz sub, db kai dub, db kai sub and the manga there is zero implication from goku about being able to take out buicolo himself. So it lacks consistency. The “ like this” is better interpreted as ssj3 being weaker and needing fusion. Goku mentions fusion bfr and after the “ like this “ statement, he mentions it mulptile times in buus body. Even considered to fuse into gogeta INSIDE buus body so gogeta would’ve been tiny / nerfed as well. There is no mentjon of a nerf / size issue from Goku, in fact super buu points it out to goku and had it not been for the guides the viewers wouldn’t have known about the nerf until super buu pointed it out as well .
Also when they first enter buus body Goku said soemthing along the lines of “ there’s no guarantee we can save everyone and revert buu back to his first / original form”. < the wording here is important, “ first” and “ original” is in reference to fat buu, someone who Goku is capable of beating. This is further backed up when Goku tells vegeta “ I could’ve beat the FAT buu but I wanted to give the boys a chance”. Notice how he never mentions any other buu? My point in all this is there is almost nothing that supports goku > base super buu. The only thing is interpreting the “ like this” statement but the other interpretation is supported better.
Also I’ve seen ppl over the years argue goku didn’t know he would return to normal if he went out so him saying “ well go out and lose “ is still referring to the nerf. The issue here is 90% of these fans didn’t watch the show they jsut watch these db content creators post the “ 1/100th “ scan and the “ like this” statement and go along with it. Had these ppl actually watched the show they’d see in both dbz and in db kai goku says they’ll go out and regain their size / return to normal, and that statement alone destroys the whole argument of nerf / size being an issue and further proves Goku doesn’t scale to base super buu.