Very accurate advice. If you live alone 120T as an expat shall be the minimum. But if you need to provide for a family with that salary forget it. Don't be naive guys, universal rules apply also in Switzerland
Manual testing may be a bit lower, but I do not think that automated test engineers (if that is what you meant) are significantly below software engineers on average.
In good companies automated test development is no different from other sw development, when it comes to salary. The job title is often "Software Engineer in Testing", something like that. Not sure about salaries of manual testers, I expect them to be quite a bit lower.
@@cernejr thank you so much! Do you think Switzerland (Geneva) would hire a Junior Software tester with no professional experience (from France ) or would they hire a 3y experience minimum? Do they give a chance to junior I mean...
Very informative, thank you. Video topic suggestion: Out of 100 sw engineers in Switzerland, how many are typically Swiss born, how many are from EU, how many are from India? Here in US the H1B visas, which do not allow the visa holder to easily switch jobs, play huge negative role on salaries and working conditions for sw engineers. Also, are trade unions a thing in CH? And how well does CH govt regulate work - e.g. can employers demand unpaid overtime as here in US?
Great question. Switzerland is a somewhat similar in terms of employment law to the US, just less extreme. Notice periods are short, especially in your first year. It's a bit less dramatic to lose your job in Switzerland vs. the US on H1B, but it is a risk and at the very least a psychological burden. Since getting a visa for non EU/EFTA citizens is a significantly more complex task for employers with quotas, only about 7% of the Swiss working population are non EU/EFTA/UK citizens [1]. I estimate the percentage among software developers is a bit higher due to the special skills required, so let's say maybe about 10%. I am not sure what percentage of those 10% is Indian, but I am sure you can find that number somewhere. [1]: www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/work-income/employment-working-hours/economically-active-population/foreign-labour-force.assetdetail.26505677.html
@@38countries Thank you for the prompt and informative answer, it gives me a rough idea. Here in California there are companies where some 90% of developers and sw managers are from India. Many are on H1B visa, and as a result they are afraid to speak up. This impacts salaries, working conditions, and product safety.
I could imagine that this factor exists also in Switzerland, but to a lesser extent. There is certainly a bit more transparency about it in Switzerland since the government has put in some measures in place that try to make it harder for employers to bring in people from afar, undermining Swiss salaries and quality levels. Plus, Switzerland has much less of a hire and fire mentality even though the comparatively lax employment law in Switzerland would legally permit this practice. But this idea in part triggered me to make the video in the first place, so that newcomers to CH don't have a bad awakening a while after arriving because you might put yourself under a lot of pressure not to have to leave the country (many people are not good at dealing with this).
@@38countries Good information, thank you. Until recently I worked for Siemens, we had a branch in Baden, CH. My Swiss colleagues (as well as international colleagues working in Switzerland), seemed more relaxed compared to us here in California.
What is a realistic salary for a junior software engineer with up to 1 year of work experience (during the Computer Science studies)? I would like to complete my graduation internship (Bachelorarbeit) in Switzerland and then live and work in the Zurich/Lucerne area. I'm Dutch and speak English + German.
Really depends on your specialization. While the statistics I referred to in the video are a bit misleading about senior and higher roles, I think they are more accurate on junior roles.
The two salary boundaries from the video are pretty much what you should aim for. It depends a bit on your specialization, internships, language skills and so on. For example, PHP tends to pay a bit less. In cases like these, you may not be ready to move to / stay in Switzerland and another country might give you a better deal overall.
Hallo, Vielen dank. I need one honest advice if you have the time to share with me. I am currently living in Essen, and I earn roughly 90000 K Euros as a consultant in the field of engineering. My rent is only 1100 Euros in some very nice white German neighbourhood, I am married and have tax class 3 and have a house wife. Now the Swiss Employer is offering me 100K CHF and for us it is important to have a good health insurance with 0 deductible and possibility to visit any specialist of our choice and it is roughly 470 CHF per person per month . I dont like 100 K CHF and because either I can less money or almost same money because of 900 CHF and additional 1100 Euros that will be added to monthly rent (900+ 2100 = 3000 CHF only for housing and health insurance) From my calculations 120 K CHF is at minimum point, do you think it is ok as the employer is pushing for 100 K CHF and 120 K is the red line for me or may be 115 K in worst case Any suggestions
I started making a research on the market and it is weird. All head hunters tell me that the companies pay maximum 120k. I am a Java dev with 12 years of experience, speak C1 German, a masters degree and hear the same 120k since years. How is it possible no head hunter offers me jobs with at least 150k? 😮 I earn 105k in Germany currently (~5000€ after taxes)
Hello. Great video as usual. Been watching your content for a long time and I have aspirations to move to Switzerland. I am Lebanese with 2.5 years of experience in Software Development, and I have a bachelor degree. Would you say things are especially more complex for people coming from the Middle-East (also given the current unstable situation with the war), or is it equally difficult for anyone coming from non EU/EFTA/UK citizens?
Hi @christianhabis8554, I don't think that being Lebanese makes a dramatic difference over other non-EU/EFTA citizenship holders. More relevant are your tech as well as language skills. For the most part, Switzerland is nicely meritocratic, at least in software engineering. While salaries tend to be a good deal lower in the French speaking part, it could be wise to focus on that one in the beginning if you are good with French like many Lebanese are. If you speak neither German, French nor Italian your choice will be limited but it does not have to be a bad thing. I think the really good roles in Switzerland are English based anyways. It will significantly increase the time to find such a role in the first place + visa sponsorship though, but the role might be better and more technologically interesting. Sidenote: UK citizens are no longer preferred and have the same difficulties like every non-EU/EFTA citizen after the transition rule expired in 2022.
Thank you for the detailed reply. Yes I know French very well, but I am also learning German at the moment too. Hopefully this will increase my options in finding jobs here. Based on your answer, looks like I just have to keep grinding and applying for jobs as often as I can until one eventually works. Thanks again!@@38countries
Yes, that is a good starting point. If you want to take the short cut to getting a job in Switzerland, we can help you with that: 38countries.com/ch/job-coaching
Future topic? Teams/Companies that use Linux vs Windows. Here in US the culture of teams/companies that use Linux is quite different from teams/companies that use exclusively Windows. Or maybe a more general topic - how the technologies in use affect the company/team culture. E.g. I know that CERN uses lots of Linux.
Hi. I'm a Swiss running a hackerspace in St. Gallen. I've worked a long time as a Dev and switched to DevOps at the last job working with Linux on a the servers. On the current job I have also users using Raspberry-Pis along with Windows-Clients (There is always some software that won't easily run on Linux) . I don't think you can generalize the company culture judging from the software being used. When it comes down, in the end all companies will need to pay their bills. Often the current management will need to stick to past technical decisions because switching is hard and can even heavily disrupt operations even when it's clear that the past decision weren't ideal. When I seek a job, I try to find one which needs my skills and where my favorite tools are accepted by the company.
Thanks for the video Raphael. I've been offered exactly CHF120K to work as a Java software engineer at UBS (Zürich), but I have two small kids and a wife that doesn't speak German... so I'm hesitating to make the move. The number seems too low for a family of four, even if we lived in the vicinity of Zürich and not the city itself... What would you advise? Knowing what you know, would you take the offer or look elsewhere? Thanks in advance for any advice!
You could make it if you optimize cost, but you won't be able to save a lot for the bad times / additional time off for family etc (see Topic 2 in the video) and it is a bit risky in general unless your wife will also be working once you move. If she makes e.g. 80K per year, so it's 200K p.a. pre-tax/social for the whole household that would be fine. Otherwise I'd look somewhere else first or prepare to be on a thin budget for a while, i.e. less vacation, luxury etc. Both strategies can work, depending on your risk appetite.
@@38countries thanks for the heads up! It seems like it’s a no-go for now then, I do not want to be dealing with the headaches of a tight budget. Either get a better offer, or move to Ticino instead (she speaks native Italian). I could commute from Lugano to Zürich, although I’m not sure for how long I could keep that up.
Yeah, as I explained in the other video, Ticino and Wallis can be great places to find a less expensive place to live, especially on a lower salary (always do the exact math though) vs Zurich. th-cam.com/video/wygtd__11cs/w-d-xo.html Ideally you should not have to commute to the office more than twice per week. I would never accept an offer where I have to come to the office every day unless I get paid a lot of money extra for that, i.e. an offer on the lower end does not qualify.
Very accurate advice. If you live alone 120T as an expat shall be the minimum. But if you need to provide for a family with that salary forget it. Don't be naive guys, universal rules apply also in Switzerland
Brilliant video thank you!
Could we say QA/Software Testers (manual) will be paid 15-20% less than a developer?
Maybe 10%-15% for Automation Testers?
Manual testing may be a bit lower, but I do not think that automated test engineers (if that is what you meant) are significantly below software engineers on average.
In good companies automated test development is no different from other sw development, when it comes to salary. The job title is often "Software Engineer in Testing", something like that. Not sure about salaries of manual testers, I expect them to be quite a bit lower.
@@38countries thank your for your answer! Very helpful
Manual tester first, at the moment
@@cernejr thank you so much! Do you think Switzerland (Geneva) would hire a Junior Software tester with no professional experience (from France ) or would they hire a 3y experience minimum?
Do they give a chance to junior I mean...
@@tortyr666 I have no idea, sorry. I am a sw engineer in US, I was talking about US. In general most of what I said is true in any country.
Very informative, thank you. Video topic suggestion: Out of 100 sw engineers in Switzerland, how many are typically Swiss born, how many are from EU, how many are from India? Here in US the H1B visas, which do not allow the visa holder to easily switch jobs, play huge negative role on salaries and working conditions for sw engineers. Also, are trade unions a thing in CH? And how well does CH govt regulate work - e.g. can employers demand unpaid overtime as here in US?
Great question. Switzerland is a somewhat similar in terms of employment law to the US, just less extreme. Notice periods are short, especially in your first year.
It's a bit less dramatic to lose your job in Switzerland vs. the US on H1B, but it is a risk and at the very least a psychological burden.
Since getting a visa for non EU/EFTA citizens is a significantly more complex task for employers with quotas, only about 7% of the Swiss working population are non EU/EFTA/UK citizens [1]. I estimate the percentage among software developers is a bit higher due to the special skills required, so let's say maybe about 10%. I am not sure what percentage of those 10% is Indian, but I am sure you can find that number somewhere.
[1]: www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/work-income/employment-working-hours/economically-active-population/foreign-labour-force.assetdetail.26505677.html
@@38countries Thank you for the prompt and informative answer, it gives me a rough idea. Here in California there are companies where some 90% of developers and sw managers are from India. Many are on H1B visa, and as a result they are afraid to speak up. This impacts salaries, working conditions, and product safety.
I could imagine that this factor exists also in Switzerland, but to a lesser extent. There is certainly a bit more transparency about it in Switzerland since the government has put in some measures in place that try to make it harder for employers to bring in people from afar, undermining Swiss salaries and quality levels. Plus, Switzerland has much less of a hire and fire mentality even though the comparatively lax employment law in Switzerland would legally permit this practice.
But this idea in part triggered me to make the video in the first place, so that newcomers to CH don't have a bad awakening a while after arriving because you might put yourself under a lot of pressure not to have to leave the country (many people are not good at dealing with this).
@@38countries Good information, thank you. Until recently I worked for Siemens, we had a branch in Baden, CH. My Swiss colleagues (as well as international colleagues working in Switzerland), seemed more relaxed compared to us here in California.
What is a realistic salary for a junior software engineer with up to 1 year of work experience (during the Computer Science studies)? I would like to complete my graduation internship (Bachelorarbeit) in Switzerland and then live and work in the Zurich/Lucerne area. I'm Dutch and speak English + German.
Really depends on your specialization. While the statistics I referred to in the video are a bit misleading about senior and higher roles, I think they are more accurate on junior roles.
@@38countries Okay, merci vielmal :)
What is a good salary for the first job with a master degree in computer scienes?
The two salary boundaries from the video are pretty much what you should aim for.
It depends a bit on your specialization, internships, language skills and so on.
For example, PHP tends to pay a bit less. In cases like these, you may not be ready to move to / stay in Switzerland and another country might give you a better deal overall.
Hallo, Vielen dank. I need one honest advice if you have the time to share with me. I am currently living in Essen, and I earn roughly 90000 K Euros as a consultant in the field of engineering. My rent is only 1100 Euros in some very nice white German neighbourhood, I am married and have tax class 3 and have a house wife. Now the Swiss Employer is offering me 100K CHF and for us it is important to have a good health insurance with 0 deductible and possibility to visit any specialist of our choice and it is roughly 470 CHF per person per month . I dont like 100 K CHF and because either I can less money or almost same money because of 900 CHF and additional 1100 Euros that will be added to monthly rent (900+ 2100 = 3000 CHF only for housing and health insurance) From my calculations 120 K CHF is at minimum point, do you think it is ok as the employer is pushing for 100 K CHF and 120 K is the red line for me or may be 115 K in worst case
Any suggestions
Hey there Dhoongi, I made a video for you: th-cam.com/video/GFb6IIgdb0E/w-d-xo.html
I started making a research on the market and it is weird. All head hunters tell me that the companies pay maximum 120k. I am a Java dev with 12 years of experience, speak C1 German, a masters degree and hear the same 120k since years. How is it possible no head hunter offers me jobs with at least 150k? 😮 I earn 105k in Germany currently (~5000€ after taxes)
Great topic for a newsletter! I'll write about that next week.
@ thanks a lot! I really appreciate your work 🙌🏼
Hello. Great video as usual. Been watching your content for a long time and I have aspirations to move to Switzerland.
I am Lebanese with 2.5 years of experience in Software Development, and I have a bachelor degree. Would you say things are especially more complex for people coming from the Middle-East (also given the current unstable situation with the war), or is it equally difficult for anyone coming from non EU/EFTA/UK citizens?
Hi @christianhabis8554, I don't think that being Lebanese makes a dramatic difference over other non-EU/EFTA citizenship holders. More relevant are your tech as well as language skills. For the most part, Switzerland is nicely meritocratic, at least in software engineering. While salaries tend to be a good deal lower in the French speaking part, it could be wise to focus on that one in the beginning if you are good with French like many Lebanese are.
If you speak neither German, French nor Italian your choice will be limited but it does not have to be a bad thing. I think the really good roles in Switzerland are English based anyways. It will significantly increase the time to find such a role in the first place + visa sponsorship though, but the role might be better and more technologically interesting.
Sidenote: UK citizens are no longer preferred and have the same difficulties like every non-EU/EFTA citizen after the transition rule expired in 2022.
Thank you for the detailed reply. Yes I know French very well, but I am also learning German at the moment too. Hopefully this will increase my options in finding jobs here.
Based on your answer, looks like I just have to keep grinding and applying for jobs as often as I can until one eventually works.
Thanks again!@@38countries
Yes, that is a good starting point.
If you want to take the short cut to getting a job in Switzerland, we can help you with that: 38countries.com/ch/job-coaching
Hi is there any chance for network enginners there? Pls respond. Thank you.
Yes, have you checked LinkedIn?
How to Find a Software Developer Job in Switzerland: th-cam.com/video/OHDL7OsSmrs/w-d-xo.html
Thank you! @@38countries
Future topic? Teams/Companies that use Linux vs Windows. Here in US the culture of teams/companies that use Linux is quite different from teams/companies that use exclusively Windows. Or maybe a more general topic - how the technologies in use affect the company/team culture. E.g. I know that CERN uses lots of Linux.
Sounds like an interesting topic. I am not quite sure how to approach it though. macOS and especially iOS are definitely very big in Switzerland.
Hi. I'm a Swiss running a hackerspace in St. Gallen. I've worked a long time as a Dev and switched to DevOps at the last job working with Linux on a the servers. On the current job I have also users using Raspberry-Pis along with Windows-Clients (There is always some software that won't easily run on Linux) .
I don't think you can generalize the company culture judging from the software being used. When it comes down, in the end all companies will need to pay their bills. Often the current management will need to stick to past technical decisions because switching is hard and can even heavily disrupt operations even when it's clear that the past decision weren't ideal.
When I seek a job, I try to find one which needs my skills and where my favorite tools are accepted by the company.
Thanks for the video Raphael. I've been offered exactly CHF120K to work as a Java software engineer at UBS (Zürich), but I have two small kids and a wife that doesn't speak German... so I'm hesitating to make the move. The number seems too low for a family of four, even if we lived in the vicinity of Zürich and not the city itself... What would you advise? Knowing what you know, would you take the offer or look elsewhere? Thanks in advance for any advice!
You could make it if you optimize cost, but you won't be able to save a lot for the bad times / additional time off for family etc (see Topic 2 in the video) and it is a bit risky in general unless your wife will also be working once you move. If she makes e.g. 80K per year, so it's 200K p.a. pre-tax/social for the whole household that would be fine.
Otherwise I'd look somewhere else first or prepare to be on a thin budget for a while, i.e. less vacation, luxury etc. Both strategies can work, depending on your risk appetite.
@@38countries thanks for the heads up! It seems like it’s a no-go for now then, I do not want to be dealing with the headaches of a tight budget. Either get a better offer, or move to Ticino instead (she speaks native Italian). I could commute from Lugano to Zürich, although I’m not sure for how long I could keep that up.
Yeah, as I explained in the other video, Ticino and Wallis can be great places to find a less expensive place to live, especially on a lower salary (always do the exact math though) vs Zurich.
th-cam.com/video/wygtd__11cs/w-d-xo.html
Ideally you should not have to commute to the office more than twice per week. I would never accept an offer where I have to come to the office every day unless I get paid a lot of money extra for that, i.e. an offer on the lower end does not qualify.
Hey what do you think about a job offer 150k CHF?
It's a good salary for a senior developer.