With Tavares getting stripped of the C I thought I'd look back on his career and while it had some flashes, it was overall pretty underwhelming given his talents.
Tough luck for Tavares, really. The Isles never surrounded him with a true contender, and the Leafs plan for their competitive window was shot to hell by the pandemic and frozen cap, and the Leafs refused to adapt their plan to the situation. Tavares has been an elite player for a long time, his career is just a great example of hockey being a team sport where one guy can’t do it all
Kinda crazy they are taking the C, I have to imagine that sends mixed messages in the locker room. I also think he has an underwhelming career, speaking how good he was in juniors. Keep up the great work!
With regards to the locker room, it's more sending the message "this is our new direction". When San Jose stripped Thornton, we all knew he was still an actual leader, but that the ownership has planned a different path
I watched Mats Sundin play in Toronto since day one until he left to Vancouver, to say he had "empty calorie points" sounds a little disrespectful, Sundin carried the Leafs, never had any star wingers on his lines, but brought the Leafs to two conference finals. Please don't compare a legend like Mats Sundin to John Tavares, Tavares has been a good Leaf, overpaid but good. Sundin was a great Leaf, if Sundin was in his prime today playing with Marner or Nylander on his wing then Sundin would have 120+ points every season.
Completely agree. Sundin is the greatest Leaf of all time but also the most under appreciated. As you mentioned, he had no one to play with but still made everyone around him better. Guys like Jonas Hoguland were made into good players playing with Sundin. He size, skating, and skill were phenomenal and as he matured, he raised his performance in the playoffs and got the Leafs to two Conference Finals. If he had played with an elite winger from his era like Brendan Shanahan, who knows how many points he would have had. Matthews has a chance to surpass Sundin but he needs to elevate his play come playoff time.
@joeraptor1 Well Zaid. When I hear the term "empty calorie points" I think of an average player benefitting from playing on the same line as a star player, like how Matt Moulson scored 30 goals playing with a prime John Tavares. Sundin played with players like Jonas Hoglund and an old way past his prime Gary Roberts and yet Sundin was a point per game player in the dead puck era when every goalie in the league had a GAA below 2.50. Every point Sundin had meant something, he carried the Leafs and the team would not have sniffed the playoffs without him, but this guy talks about Sundin like he's Scott Gomez.
It’s pretty interesting to think how the rest of the league shakes out if Tavares had gone to the Sharks. Does Karlsson go to Tampa instead? Does Ottawa just get stuck walking him to free agency? Do the Leafs still trade Kadri, or if they do, is it to someone else for another center?
Obviously he’s been a solid NHLer throughout his career. That’s not what the video was about. Regardless of captaincy he’s still not lived up to the hype of when he was drafted. Like Mike said, potential generational pick, to never really being considered among the Leagues best for a sustainable period of time. He isn’t even the best player from the 2009 draft (Hedman should’ve 100% been #1). There was a time where Stamkos and Tavares were considered close in potential, with John being seen as having even more. Now if you look at there careers, it’s not even close.
@@JSL0202 horrible comparison...look who stamkos played with, tampas been a force for years. JT is still a stud and gets way too much flack. He"ll score 40 this year with the pressure of being captain for the leafs off his shoulders. JT loves the leafs and bleeds blue. this video is just milking the captaincy news. Dont get why everyone loves watching the leafs lose so much. Fans been suffering for 50 years.
@@husg13 it’s not me that’s comparing Stamkos with Tavares. Everyone in the hockey world compared the two because they were both exceptional players and grew up playing on the same team. That being said, if you’re talking about Tavares on the Islanders not having much help, then maybe you should look at Stamkos early career too. In 3 of his first 4 seasons he scored 90+ points. The last season he had 60 goals. This was pre Kucherov, Point, Hedman, etc. He had St Louis to play with, but even in his most productive goal scoring year (60), St Louis only had 74 points. Stamkos outscored Tavares by a landslide with yes, some more help, but it’s not like those Tampa teams were juggernauts. They were pretty bad. If you want to talk more modern, are you actually going to imply that for the past 6 years JT hasn’t played with elite players in Toronto to boost his numbers? He has. And despite the talent he’s been surrounded by, he’s been solid. Not amazing, solid.
Sean Day, Joseph Veleno. There’s two players granted exceptional status that amounted to nothing. Tavares carried bad Islanders teams for years. Hard to call him underwhelming
Not having hardware makes him feel underwhelming and losing the captaincy twice (by leaving and spurring the fanbase) and team he joined has had far less playoff success. He's borderline hall of fame, but needs to do something now
why does that have to do with crosby or mcdavid? He only participated in one olympic alongside price and crosby and before mcdavid. The reason why they didn't go in 2018 was cause of scheduling issues and 2022 was cause of the omicron variant of covid. That's got nothing to do with any individual player
@@ethanparker7900Tavares’ injury in 2014 (and Hasek’s injury in 2006) often comes from the owners perspective as to why NHL teams don’t want to send their players to the Olympics
Reminds me a bit of Mike Gartner, an outstanding player who played in an era where other players overshadowed him, and because he never won a cup, kind of got forgotten by fans. Taveras isnt as good as Gartner, but definitely will be forgotten if he doesnt get some more team success
It's not Tavares' fault why he is where he is right now. When Tavares was on the Islanders, his teammates were too weak and he just wasn't able to carry them on his own. But then, when he joined the Maple Leafs, his spotlight was stolen by Matthews... Maybe if Tavares joined the Sharks, his career would have been better even though San Jose is thousands of miles away from home
If the Islanders had good teams he would be regarded similarly to Stamkos. By jumping ship he’s taken a more difficult path than other franchise players, but he needs to win the cup for it to have any meaning. If not, he will retire with a fine career but with nothing to show for it (international play aside)
@@MikeBartner This 100%. It's like the Bryce Harper situation (which he only rectified by helping the Phillies to the World Series a few years ago even though they lost). The fact that the Nationals (and the Isles) both went further without them and without replacing them immediately after they left is a bad look regardless of the facts lol
When Toronto signed him, I was baffled. He didn't address a real need of the team, and he didn't exactly have the most sterling playoff record. That 11 mil could have been way better spent elsewhere.
Mats Sundin never sniffed a personal award? He won the Mark Messier Leadership Award in 2008, which counts because by then, it had become an annual award.
2016: John Tavares scores in OT in game six against the Florida Panthers to lead his team past the first round for the first time in a long time, and then gets beaten by the Tampa Bay Lightning in five games. 2023: John Tavares scores in OT in game six against the Tampa Bay Lightning to lead his team past the first round in a long time, and then gets beaten by the Florida Panthers in five games.
If the Isles were better at drafting, or had just accepted the Hall for Hamonic swap (Garth Snow rejected it back in 2016) I wonder how different his legacy is and if he even left
6 30 goal seasons, twice a hart finalist, Olympic Gold Medalist, World Junior Gold, WCoH Gold, 1000 points is not enough of a legacy for you? Great video Mike. No wonder nobody wants to play for the Islanders when their fans trash on their only great players in 40 years.
Tavares reminds me a lot of Anthony Davis (yes I know Davis has a ring). Both are top 5 prospects of the 21st century with all the skill in the world, will both be hall of famers but still feel underwhelming.
Tavares is not a Hall of Fame talent. The only Hall of fame worthy thing he's done is get a 1,000 points and even that doesn't immediately make you a Hall of Famer. He's consistently been good but never great. No individual Trophies, No 50 goal seasons or 100 point seasons or even 90 point seasons. Also even though it is a team effort he has never won a Cup and only made it past the 1st round twice. Plenty of other players that have had similar or better stats that have accomplished more that aren't in the Hall of Fame like Alexander Mogilny, Bernie Nicholls, Vincent Damphousse, Steve Larmer, Theo Fleury, Keith Tkachuk, Rod Brind'Amour, and Bobby Smith. He's only had 5 point per game seasons and his best point total is 88. Tavares is overrated, there's nothing special about him and nothing stands out about him.
@@joepettibonehe’ll get in. By the end of his career he’s barely below a point per game, will be over 500 goals and most likely over 1200 points. Being nominated twice for the Hart is also a huge accomplishment, not many players can say that. Is he overrated, sure, but he’ll have the counting stats to get in. Also his international play is nothing to sneeze at either.
@@kfreeman19 You make some good points. While I personally don't see him as a Hall of Fame talent I respect your opinion and do agree that he'll probably get in. I just think that there are players with similar or better stats that have accomplished more that have been retired for a long time that are not in the Hall of Fame that I think should be in before him. If he continues to produce the way he did this past season or the season before that for the next few years and hit 500 goals (which less than 50 players have done) then I agree that he will get in.
His production has only dropped because of ice time for the last 4 years under Sheldon Keefe. He has not lost anything, yet. It was his teammates getting all the puck possession time. Coming to Toronto was a bad idea for him in retrospect because he came here to reduce his own minutes...He even should have stayed with the Islanders
While I get the general idea of this video I think this is more an analysis of how two teams completely and utterly failed a pretty talented guy, not how he himself had an underwhelming career. He gave the Islanders everything he could, and after how many goddamn years of utterly failing to do anything, he decided to try a team that no one could've known at the time would've had some of the biggest chokers on the planet.
@@MikeBartner In terms of delivering 11 mil value, I would agree. I’d also argue though that “11 mil value”, as I think you pointed out in the video, is VERY different than what it would’ve been if the cap hadn’t stayed flat due to covid, which were the circumstances under which it was signed. Besides, I’d also argue one of his best years was 20-21, and it’s not his fault he took Perry’s knee to the face. Overall, I think Tavares’ career is more a cascading series of missed opportunities and bad management, more than it is an underwhelming career. If anything, he should be a case study in just how bad the circumstances surrounding a player’s career can truly be, regardless of their own talent and effort.
@@MikeBartner idk if he failed the leafs i mean he got them over the first round hump in 2023 but ofc the $11 million salary sure is a little too bloaded. Maybe $8-8.5 million less hate would get thrown around
John Tavares is a good player, but the media in Toronto is just as bad as Montreal. Atleast, if he stayed with the Isles he would've had less pressure to perform. He's in a similar situation as Steven Stamkos right now.. aging and stuff.
@@MikeBartner idk man cause 2020 they weren't even originally supposed to be in the playoffs and only did by the expanded format and 2021 prolly not either cause stammer actually played for the bolts
I honestly never thought John Tavares would sign with the Leafs when he did. I think he needs playoff success to help his legacy. The fact that the Isles went to back to back conference finals without him and without replacing him (while he's only been to the second round once) is going to hurt his legacy until he overcomes it. I also think if the Leafs don't have deep playoff success this year (at worst a game seven second round loss) they might not even bring him back even if he takes a hometown discount. I thought the answer he gave after the loss to the Bruins ("We're right there") was a poor look when fans were looking for accountability from their captain (compare that to Nate MacKinnon's infamous post-series press conference when the Avs got bounced before they went on a Cup run lol). Edit: This is also the Vince Carter conundrum (to borrow another Scotiabank Arena tenant analogy). If Vince Carter had stayed a Raptor for as long as possible, he's a king in Canada. He left after virtually quitting on the team, never won a chip, bounced around, and now he can't be Mr. Raptor in retirement. Especially because in hockey not winning a Cup is not as big of a knock on your resume like in basketball (or if you're in the GOAT debate for hockey which JT is not in), I think staying on Long Island (or even requesting a deal at the deadline) would have been great insurance. Instead, now, if the Leafs do win the Cup, he won't be in that iconic photo as the first Leaf to touch the cup in over half a century (unless Matthews is injured at that time lol).
Tavares is a phenomenal player no doubt, he's unfortunately just been dealt a shitty hand year after year. He pulled the isles out of the basement and got the leafs and isles their first series wins in decades.
John "we're right there" Tavares. The best they've done is 5 wins in the playoffs. Takes 16 to have your name on the cup. They're nowhere close. Instead of actually getting rid of some of the infamous core 4, the best they can do is move the C. The leafs are beyond hilarious.
Even though i was never an Islanders fan and I utterly despise the Maple Leafs, I actually kinda feel a bit sorry for the dude. He never really had the same chance that a lot of other elite players did because neither of his teams could manage two socks into a pair. It occasionally happens that way that a very highly rated prospect just happens to get stuck on one or more dead dog, go nowhere teams and before you know it, their career is over and it's largely been wasted. Mats Sundin is indeed, a very good example of that. This is why I never get upset when players move on to greener pastures. Their careers could be over at any moment and they've got to make the most of them and not waste their best years on dud teams that can't do anything.
Exactly, you look at John's numbers and they are really good, especially for the teammates he's had. Taveras is underrated to most people and gets more shit then he deserves. He's also the only guy who shows up when time matters and gets those needed goals or assists. Leafs fans suck to play for and Taveras is proof of that
If you look at his stats, Taveras is still a really good hockey player and better than a lot. Doesn't deserve the amount of shit he gets in my opinion. Especially from the leaf fans, guy is the only one who shows up comes playoffs
Only tangentially related, BUT I remember playing NHL 11 as a C SNP and getting drafted by the NYI... looking at that roster, with Tavares, Nielsen, and my player down the center, plus Okposo, Moulson, I believe PA Parenteau was still on the team, Michael Grabner, plus nice bottom-6 wingers Trent Hunter and Blake Comeau... (defense was mighty thin, admittedly) That was a pretty exciting era for the Islanders, lots of reason for optimism... the Vanek trade(s) than picking Ladd over Okposo, man, what a way to just *hard tank* that promise. (I had to bail on that season because NHL 11's "Be A Pro" was broken; I had, like, nearly 60 points through nearly 70 games, I think, as a rookie, which is beastly but realistic for a burgeoning superstar... but that was when NHL had you playing nearly 50 minutes a game. So the top scorer on that team that wasn't me was Tavares... reasonable. But with not-quite 30 points through nearly 70 games. Not reasonable. If only I could've had my "Be A Pro" in NHL 12 - who played 2 full seasons in the OHL - drafted by the Islanders - instead of the fucking hated Flyers - just one year later, after they fixed that bug... ugh.)
The NHL's 500 goals club membership will finally hit 50 in 2024-2025 NHL season… 48. 498 - Evgeni Malkin (2 goals shy) 49. 471 - Patrick Kane (29 goals shy) 50. 456 - John Tavares (44 goals shy)
Kane and Malkin getting it for sure especially malkin, idk if tavares will get it this year. Should certainly have it by the start of 2025-2026 but we'll see if he can get it sooner
underwhelming isn't accurate to me. he has never had that good teams around him and playoffs take everybody in it and people think he would single handedly carry them which isn't fair. He shouldn't be defined by playoffs. I mean he individually is a terrific player whos been pretty much a point per game his whole career and he was on the 2014 olympic gold for canada and the gold in the 2016 world cup. While those aren't the most attractive awards they still count for something. People only hate on him cause of his contract being relatively bloaded and people being salty cause he chose his hometown over staying with the isles. I was a little disappointed ofc after so many years but at the same time, I understand and support the fact he wanted to go back home and tbh while im not a fan of the isles or the leafs, he looks just as good in a leafs as he did in an isles jersey
pj judas = the legacy of no championships or major awards. One ohl roy is it. Stats padder selfish captain who never played a lick of d or paid attention in the d end in his career going back to his gennie days. p j is always about scoring. His coaches never demanded him work on d end. That's why p j walked away from trotz and isles. The b s about his jammies was just b s excuse to walk away. p j is a good player, just not great enough to carry a team and needs supporting help. Isles couldn't do it, laffs have failed too. Maybe a team with a stud d man will help pj.
I agree... underwhelming so far. His careers not over yet, but he could have had so much more success. He's an example of how measuring whether a player, as an individual, belongs in the HHOF or being given similar honours based on team success doesn't make sense. A player can be individually great, but if the team they are on isn't built to win, it wont matter.
@@ethanparker7900 I was like 6 years ago. Now that he's proven he's a perennial loser and is slow as molasses? Isles dodged a bullet! Of course, that's unrelated to the snake lying to the Isles like a pajama boy pussy and stopping us from trading him for some quality picks/prospects
I thought I was the biggest hockey nerd who knew everything about the game and I'm sitting here watching this video thinking "Tomas Vanek was an Islander???"
Pretty sad and the JT apologists keep on mislabeling him as a point person game player (nope) and even if he was is that worth $11M lol nope. And his stellar .63 in the playoffs is laughable at $7M but he also gets more. The stalled cap is no excuse. Simply not paying too much for too little is the basis for any successful team. Too bad the Shanascam has gone back to the well and have given the playoff noshows even more of the limited Cap space. Such a weird concept.
compared to his contemporaries, definitely an underwhelming career. if he retires today, I doubt he makes the hall of fame. but I think he has a good 5-6 years left in him. If he hits 600 goals, I think he can squeak in. Also, the leafs cup window (if you can call it that) is probably open for about half a decade more, so a cup could definitely solidify him in the HHOF
Man, I just really have to add that you really disrespected Mats Sundin. One of the greatest players ever! He carried Toronto for many years...and took them further in the playoffs than they've been recently.
As a huge islanders fan he was totally underwhelming.....poor skater, non physical, disappears for at least 10 games every year and never saw him as a leader either....isles were and still r better wo him......he was never the once in a lifetime player as hyped....and on a personal note, he really f the isles over when he signed with the leafs in the midnight hour ( he was saying all the right things then bolted)
It definitely reminds me of the Johnny Gaudreau situation for the Flames if he didn't walk he would've been one of the greatest Flames of all time but threw it away to go to Ohio lol.
You think JT has no lasting legacy in the NHL ? On top of all his money and fame I would bet that his legacy in the NHL will be greater then your legacy as a vlogger will be.
John Tavares is the best Islander since Lafontaine. He carried a middling Islanders team at best, to relevancy for years. He elevated the careers of guys like Parenteau, Molson, Okposo, Lee, and Bailey. Tavares wasn't on par with Crosby, or Malkin, however he was a highly elite center for a good 7 year window. Having 500g and 1000p before age 35 is special. Tavares is also one of the top Canadian junior, and international players ever. Tavares belongs in the HOF.
Tavares is not a Hall of Fame talent. The only Hall of fame worthy thing he's done is get a 1,000 points and even that doesn't immediately make you a Hall of Famer. He's consistently been good but never great. No individual Trophies, No 50 goal seasons or 100 point seasons or even 90 point seasons. Also even though it is a team effort he has never won a Cup and only made it past the 1st round twice. Plenty of other players that have had similar or better stats that have accomplished more that aren't in the Hall of Fame like Alexander Mogilny, Bernie Nicholls, Vincent Damphousse, Steve Larmer, Theo Fleury, Keith Tkachuk, Rod Brind'Amour, and Bobby Smith. He's only had 5 point per game seasons and his best point total is 88. Tavares is overrated, there's nothing special about him and nothing stands out about him.
@@joepettibone He played in a low scoring era. Those 80 point seasons in the 2010s would’ve been 100-110 points now. He was a hart finalist twice. Still not HoF unless he wins a cup, but he was definitely a superstar in his prime.
@@ryandaly9093 no, his unbeliavbly bad bias. It’s on his ig more than his yt. He just said the caps kings and isles are better current teams than the jets. That’s just one occurrence it’s bad daily tho
@@MikeBartner ya I’m not tryna watch it lol your takes are all trash and coming from someone who’s actually played high level hockey as opposed to someone who has never played, you don’t really know hockey no offense
![โฮ่ง! (SUGOI) - LYKN [ OFFICIAL MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nFp4zjAARFs/mqdefault.jpg)
The fact that he scored the goal that broke *two* teams's 20+ year series win drought is a pretty cool legacy imo
And then never winning more than 1 game past the first round
I agree, He has my respect and gratitude for scoring that ot series winner!
@@Average_Canadianthat Florida team proven again this year was Stanley cup winner bound. Only reason they lost was because Vegas cheated
You have low expectations and are okay with mediocrity
@@mattm5786 Lmfao cope
I remember thinking that a 7 year deal was a long ass deal as a kid. Now Tavares has 1 year left and the leafs are still trash lmao
HAAHAHHHAAH not trash but year 1 series win in 6 seasons is crazy
the leafs dont have guys who can play playoff hockey
The amount of (former) star players that have came through and they still have accomplished nothing is ridiculous 😂
Tough luck for Tavares, really. The Isles never surrounded him with a true contender, and the Leafs plan for their competitive window was shot to hell by the pandemic and frozen cap, and the Leafs refused to adapt their plan to the situation. Tavares has been an elite player for a long time, his career is just a great example of hockey being a team sport where one guy can’t do it all
To be fair, the Islanders went to back to back conference finals without replacing him after he left lol
@@kiroolioneaver8532 that doesn’t really add to the Tavares conversation but yes, that did happen
@@kiroolioneaver8532 they weren't even supposed to be in the playoffs at all in 2020 and only did cause of the expanded format
@@ethanparker7900 The Isles were the 7th seed lol Toronto was eight that year
@@OneTeeGlorynah, it subtracts from Tavares’ legacy as a leader in the NHL.
He won 5 gold medals for Canada- Two World Juniors, Spengler Cup, World Cup, Olympics
His legacy is leaving the island and underwhelming playoff appearances
Yep
Kinda crazy they are taking the C, I have to imagine that sends mixed messages in the locker room. I also think he has an underwhelming career, speaking how good he was in juniors. Keep up the great work!
Thanks Ryan you might be the only positive comment on this video!
@@MikeBartner Yea perhaps lol, Leaf fans coping and being insufferable- name a more iconic duo!
I would assume that the locker room is a mess on a good day
I mean. He played for 10 years with a bunch of 2nd and 3rd liners in NY. Look at the stats he put up in his prime over there.
Toronto. Well…
With regards to the locker room, it's more sending the message "this is our new direction". When San Jose stripped Thornton, we all knew he was still an actual leader, but that the ownership has planned a different path
I watched Mats Sundin play in Toronto since day one until he left to Vancouver, to say he had "empty calorie points" sounds a little disrespectful, Sundin carried the Leafs, never had any star wingers on his lines, but brought the Leafs to two conference finals. Please don't compare a legend like Mats Sundin to John Tavares, Tavares has been a good Leaf, overpaid but good. Sundin was a great Leaf, if Sundin was in his prime today playing with Marner or Nylander on his wing then Sundin would have 120+ points every season.
Sundin had the ability to put the team on his back ..if he had a playmaker and deep line up like the leafs now ..who knows how he would be viewed
Completely agree. Sundin is the greatest Leaf of all time but also the most under appreciated. As you mentioned, he had no one to play with but still made everyone around him better. Guys like Jonas Hoguland were made into good players playing with Sundin. He size, skating, and skill were phenomenal and as he matured, he raised his performance in the playoffs and got the Leafs to two Conference Finals. If he had played with an elite winger from his era like Brendan Shanahan, who knows how many points he would have had. Matthews has a chance to surpass Sundin but he needs to elevate his play come playoff time.
@joeraptor1 Well Zaid. When I hear the term "empty calorie points" I think of an average player benefitting from playing on the same line as a star player, like how Matt Moulson scored 30 goals playing with a prime John Tavares. Sundin played with players like Jonas Hoglund and an old way past his prime Gary Roberts and yet Sundin was a point per game player in the dead puck era when every goalie in the league had a GAA below 2.50. Every point Sundin had meant something, he carried the Leafs and the team would not have sniffed the playoffs without him, but this guy talks about Sundin like he's Scott Gomez.
Amen
Absolutely!!
Should have gone to the sharks back when they wanted him. We would have 100% got him a cup. (I’m a sharks fan and im delusional)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA y'all are better off without him
It’s pretty interesting to think how the rest of the league shakes out if Tavares had gone to the Sharks. Does Karlsson go to Tampa instead? Does Ottawa just get stuck walking him to free agency? Do the Leafs still trade Kadri, or if they do, is it to someone else for another center?
If Matthews doesn't drop his pants 4 years ago we're not even watching this video right now
🤷
Tavares is a solid NHLer period
Obviously he’s been a solid NHLer throughout his career. That’s not what the video was about. Regardless of captaincy he’s still not lived up to the hype of when he was drafted. Like Mike said, potential generational pick, to never really being considered among the Leagues best for a sustainable period of time. He isn’t even the best player from the 2009 draft (Hedman should’ve 100% been #1). There was a time where Stamkos and Tavares were considered close in potential, with John being seen as having even more. Now if you look at there careers, it’s not even close.
I'm glad someone said it
@@JSL0202 Tavares didn't create the hype the "hockey know it all's" did
Tavares didn't ask to be Captain
Read the title of the video
👋 Toddles
@@JSL0202 horrible comparison...look who stamkos played with, tampas been a force for years. JT is still a stud and gets way too much flack. He"ll score 40 this year with the pressure of being captain for the leafs off his shoulders. JT loves the leafs and bleeds blue. this video is just milking the captaincy news. Dont get why everyone loves watching the leafs lose so much. Fans been suffering for 50 years.
@@husg13 it’s not me that’s comparing Stamkos with Tavares. Everyone in the hockey world compared the two because they were both exceptional players and grew up playing on the same team. That being said, if you’re talking about Tavares on the Islanders not having much help, then maybe you should look at Stamkos early career too. In 3 of his first 4 seasons he scored 90+ points. The last season he had 60 goals. This was pre Kucherov, Point, Hedman, etc. He had St Louis to play with, but even in his most productive goal scoring year (60), St Louis only had 74 points. Stamkos outscored Tavares by a landslide with yes, some more help, but it’s not like those Tampa teams were juggernauts. They were pretty bad. If you want to talk more modern, are you actually going to imply that for the past 6 years JT hasn’t played with elite players in Toronto to boost his numbers? He has. And despite the talent he’s been surrounded by, he’s been solid. Not amazing, solid.
Sean Day, Joseph Veleno. There’s two players granted exceptional status that amounted to nothing. Tavares carried bad Islanders teams for years. Hard to call him underwhelming
Not having hardware makes him feel underwhelming and losing the captaincy twice (by leaving and spurring the fanbase) and team he joined has had far less playoff success. He's borderline hall of fame, but needs to do something now
Yup such a weird careert
His legacy will always be remembered for the reason Canada didn't have more Olympic gold in both Crosby and McDavids career. Price as well possibly.
HAHAHHAHAAHAHA yup after that injury they said HELLLLLL nah no more NHLers too risky
why does that have to do with crosby or mcdavid? He only participated in one olympic alongside price and crosby and before mcdavid. The reason why they didn't go in 2018 was cause of scheduling issues and 2022 was cause of the omicron variant of covid. That's got nothing to do with any individual player
@@ethanparker7900Tavares’ injury in 2014 (and Hasek’s injury in 2006) often comes from the owners perspective as to why NHL teams don’t want to send their players to the Olympics
54 pts as a rookie is fantastic, even today.
Reminds me a bit of Mike Gartner, an outstanding player who played in an era where other players overshadowed him, and because he never won a cup, kind of got forgotten by fans. Taveras isnt as good as Gartner, but definitely will be forgotten if he doesnt get some more team success
Gartner never won one with Detroit?
It's not Tavares' fault why he is where he is right now. When Tavares was on the Islanders, his teammates were too weak and he just wasn't able to carry them on his own. But then, when he joined the Maple Leafs, his spotlight was stolen by Matthews...
Maybe if Tavares joined the Sharks, his career would have been better even though San Jose is thousands of miles away from home
sharks are awful
@@jimmyhayes8703 dumb ass, he means when the sharks were cup contenders back when he left the island lmao
@@jimmyhayes8703they not awful they was used be good at 2016
I am an Oshawa Generals fan. Truly thought he would be a much bigger superstar. Was such a stud in junior
That D-2 was insane
@@MikeBartner There shouldn't have even been a D-2. Lol
He’s gonna be a hall of famer so idk if his career been underwhelming
unlikely he'll be first ballot but he'll get in one day for sure i'd say
He was never bad but never amazing. Not underwhelming. Strong words
If the Islanders had good teams he would be regarded similarly to Stamkos. By jumping ship he’s taken a more difficult path than other franchise players, but he needs to win the cup for it to have any meaning. If not, he will retire with a fine career but with nothing to show for it (international play aside)
Agreed, the fact the Islanders did better IMMEDIATELY after him leaving for the presumed "better situation" really reflects poorly on him.
@@MikeBartner This 100%. It's like the Bryce Harper situation (which he only rectified by helping the Phillies to the World Series a few years ago even though they lost). The fact that the Nationals (and the Isles) both went further without them and without replacing them immediately after they left is a bad look regardless of the facts lol
Matts sundin was a better player and did not have the same talent as teammates when he was playing for the leafs.
Meant more so Tavares on the Islanders talent wise
When Toronto signed him, I was baffled. He didn't address a real need of the team, and he didn't exactly have the most sterling playoff record. That 11 mil could have been way better spent elsewhere.
Mats Sundin never sniffed a personal award? He won the Mark Messier Leadership Award in 2008, which counts because by then, it had become an annual award.
2016: John Tavares scores in OT in game six against the Florida Panthers to lead his team past the first round for the first time in a long time, and then gets beaten by the Tampa Bay Lightning in five games.
2023: John Tavares scores in OT in game six against the Tampa Bay Lightning to lead his team past the first round in a long time, and then gets beaten by the Florida Panthers in five games.
If the Isles were better at drafting, or had just accepted the Hall for Hamonic swap (Garth Snow rejected it back in 2016) I wonder how different his legacy is and if he even left
For sure like I said throughout the Islanders fumbled his prime
As a Leafs fan can’t even hate. Great Video
Thank you!
6 30 goal seasons, twice a hart finalist, Olympic Gold Medalist, World Junior Gold, WCoH Gold, 1000 points is not enough of a legacy for you? Great video Mike. No wonder nobody wants to play for the Islanders when their fans trash on their only great players in 40 years.
That HOF voiceover 😂
AHAHHAHAHAHA had to fix it in post!
Perfectly accurate, keep up the great content 👍
Thank you!
Tavares reminds me a lot of Anthony Davis (yes I know Davis has a ring). Both are top 5 prospects of the 21st century with all the skill in the world, will both be hall of famers but still feel underwhelming.
Yea that's a good comp, thankfully Tavares didn't go team up with Sid in 2018
Tavares is not a Hall of Fame talent. The only Hall of fame worthy thing he's done is get a 1,000 points and even that doesn't immediately make you a Hall of Famer. He's consistently been good but never great. No individual Trophies, No 50 goal seasons or 100 point seasons or even 90 point seasons. Also even though it is a team effort he has never won a Cup and only made it past the 1st round twice. Plenty of other players that have had similar or better stats that have accomplished more that aren't in the Hall of Fame like Alexander Mogilny, Bernie Nicholls, Vincent Damphousse, Steve Larmer, Theo Fleury, Keith Tkachuk, Rod Brind'Amour, and Bobby Smith. He's only had 5 point per game seasons and his best point total is 88. Tavares is overrated, there's nothing special about him and nothing stands out about him.
@@joepettibonehe’ll get in. By the end of his career he’s barely below a point per game, will be over 500 goals and most likely over 1200 points. Being nominated twice for the Hart is also a huge accomplishment, not many players can say that. Is he overrated, sure, but he’ll have the counting stats to get in. Also his international play is nothing to sneeze at either.
@@kfreeman19 You make some good points. While I personally don't see him as a Hall of Fame talent I respect your opinion and do agree that he'll probably get in. I just think that there are players with similar or better stats that have accomplished more that have been retired for a long time that are not in the Hall of Fame that I think should be in before him. If he continues to produce the way he did this past season or the season before that for the next few years and hit 500 goals (which less than 50 players have done) then I agree that he will get in.
@@kfreeman19he's not a Hall of famer lol
His production has only dropped because of ice time for the last 4 years under Sheldon Keefe. He has not lost anything, yet. It was his teammates getting all the puck possession time. Coming to Toronto was a bad idea for him in retrospect because he came here to reduce his own minutes...He even should have stayed with the Islanders
While I get the general idea of this video I think this is more an analysis of how two teams completely and utterly failed a pretty talented guy, not how he himself had an underwhelming career. He gave the Islanders everything he could, and after how many goddamn years of utterly failing to do anything, he decided to try a team that no one could've known at the time would've had some of the biggest chokers on the planet.
Islanders failed him for sure but he failed the Leafs besides their first year.
@@MikeBartner In terms of delivering 11 mil value, I would agree. I’d also argue though that “11 mil value”, as I think you pointed out in the video, is VERY different than what it would’ve been if the cap hadn’t stayed flat due to covid, which were the circumstances under which it was signed. Besides, I’d also argue one of his best years was 20-21, and it’s not his fault he took Perry’s knee to the face.
Overall, I think Tavares’ career is more a cascading series of missed opportunities and bad management, more than it is an underwhelming career. If anything, he should be a case study in just how bad the circumstances surrounding a player’s career can truly be, regardless of their own talent and effort.
@@MikeBartner idk if he failed the leafs i mean he got them over the first round hump in 2023 but ofc the $11 million salary sure is a little too bloaded. Maybe $8-8.5 million less hate would get thrown around
John Tavares is a good player, but the media in Toronto is just as bad as Montreal. Atleast, if he stayed with the Isles he would've had less pressure to perform. He's in a similar situation as Steven Stamkos right now.. aging and stuff.
Yea and the Islanders maybe (maybe) beat Tampa and win a cup in 2020 or 2021 too.
@@MikeBartnerstop lol, Islanders have no shot at either chip even with Tavares on the roster
@@HogSZN tf? they were the closest to beating them both years they won lmao. He Easily couldve made the difference
@@MikeBartner idk man cause 2020 they weren't even originally supposed to be in the playoffs and only did by the expanded format and 2021 prolly not either cause stammer actually played for the bolts
I honestly never thought John Tavares would sign with the Leafs when he did. I think he needs playoff success to help his legacy. The fact that the Isles went to back to back conference finals without him and without replacing him (while he's only been to the second round once) is going to hurt his legacy until he overcomes it. I also think if the Leafs don't have deep playoff success this year (at worst a game seven second round loss) they might not even bring him back even if he takes a hometown discount. I thought the answer he gave after the loss to the Bruins ("We're right there") was a poor look when fans were looking for accountability from their captain (compare that to Nate MacKinnon's infamous post-series press conference when the Avs got bounced before they went on a Cup run lol).
Edit: This is also the Vince Carter conundrum (to borrow another Scotiabank Arena tenant analogy). If Vince Carter had stayed a Raptor for as long as possible, he's a king in Canada. He left after virtually quitting on the team, never won a chip, bounced around, and now he can't be Mr. Raptor in retirement. Especially because in hockey not winning a Cup is not as big of a knock on your resume like in basketball (or if you're in the GOAT debate for hockey which JT is not in), I think staying on Long Island (or even requesting a deal at the deadline) would have been great insurance. Instead, now, if the Leafs do win the Cup, he won't be in that iconic photo as the first Leaf to touch the cup in over half a century (unless Matthews is injured at that time lol).
Tavares is a phenomenal player no doubt, he's unfortunately just been dealt a shitty hand year after year. He pulled the isles out of the basement and got the leafs and isles their first series wins in decades.
John "we're right there" Tavares. The best they've done is 5 wins in the playoffs. Takes 16 to have your name on the cup. They're nowhere close. Instead of actually getting rid of some of the infamous core 4, the best they can do is move the C. The leafs are beyond hilarious.
Lol we're right there
Do more of these
Got you Bryce!
One of the best hockey TH-camrs
Thanks!
Even though i was never an Islanders fan and I utterly despise the Maple Leafs, I actually kinda feel a bit sorry for the dude. He never really had the same chance that a lot of other elite players did because neither of his teams could manage two socks into a pair.
It occasionally happens that way that a very highly rated prospect just happens to get stuck on one or more dead dog, go nowhere teams and before you know it, their career is over and it's largely been wasted. Mats Sundin is indeed, a very good example of that.
This is why I never get upset when players move on to greener pastures. Their careers could be over at any moment and they've got to make the most of them and not waste their best years on dud teams that can't do anything.
For sure I hated how they could never surround him with enough talent.
Exactly, you look at John's numbers and they are really good, especially for the teammates he's had. Taveras is underrated to most people and gets more shit then he deserves. He's also the only guy who shows up when time matters and gets those needed goals or assists. Leafs fans suck to play for and Taveras is proof of that
@@dylangriffin5778 Well said!
@@dylangriffin5778 yessirrr i mean he finally got the isles over the first round hump in 2016 and toronto's first round hump in 2023
If you look at his stats, Taveras is still a really good hockey player and better than a lot. Doesn't deserve the amount of shit he gets in my opinion. Especially from the leaf fans, guy is the only one who shows up comes playoffs
im not a fan of the leafs or isles but i've always been fond of tavares and yah i agree he gets way too much shit for the littlest reasons
you enjoyed making this video
Not one bit
Only tangentially related, BUT
I remember playing NHL 11 as a C SNP and getting drafted by the NYI... looking at that roster, with Tavares, Nielsen, and my player down the center, plus Okposo, Moulson, I believe PA Parenteau was still on the team, Michael Grabner, plus nice bottom-6 wingers Trent Hunter and Blake Comeau... (defense was mighty thin, admittedly)
That was a pretty exciting era for the Islanders, lots of reason for optimism... the Vanek trade(s) than picking Ladd over Okposo, man, what a way to just *hard tank* that promise.
(I had to bail on that season because NHL 11's "Be A Pro" was broken; I had, like, nearly 60 points through nearly 70 games, I think, as a rookie, which is beastly but realistic for a burgeoning superstar... but that was when NHL had you playing nearly 50 minutes a game. So the top scorer on that team that wasn't me was Tavares... reasonable. But with not-quite 30 points through nearly 70 games. Not reasonable. If only I could've had my "Be A Pro" in NHL 12 - who played 2 full seasons in the OHL - drafted by the Islanders - instead of the fucking hated Flyers - just one year later, after they fixed that bug... ugh.)
Mats Sundin took the leafs too 3 final 4 appearances…
The NHL's 500 goals club membership will finally hit 50 in 2024-2025 NHL season…
48. 498 - Evgeni Malkin (2 goals shy)
49. 471 - Patrick Kane (29 goals shy)
50. 456 - John Tavares (44 goals shy)
Kane and Malkin getting it for sure especially malkin, idk if tavares will get it this year. Should certainly have it by the start of 2025-2026 but we'll see if he can get it sooner
Love these kinds of vids mbon 👍
Great video bro. Ignore the salty Leafs fans. They're just projecting. I pity them :(
Fr I don't get how they keep defending him so hard
It's a team game. As an individual, he will finish his career top 50 of all time in goals and points.
John Tavares has had a fantastic career if he was drafted 5th-10th overall.
He’s had an okay to pretty good career for a 1st overall pick.
Lol Crosby missed a quarter of that 13' season and almost had the hart. Dude was on another level
I remember that whole ovi-tavares stretch of hype for the 1st picks, tavares is the only one that really didnt live up to it
I don't know why, kind of get Rick Nash vibes with him. Great player just hasn't accomplished much.
underwhelming isn't accurate to me. he has never had that good teams around him and playoffs take everybody in it and people think he would single handedly carry them which isn't fair. He shouldn't be defined by playoffs. I mean he individually is a terrific player whos been pretty much a point per game his whole career and he was on the 2014 olympic gold for canada and the gold in the 2016 world cup. While those aren't the most attractive awards they still count for something. People only hate on him cause of his contract being relatively bloaded and people being salty cause he chose his hometown over staying with the isles. I was a little disappointed ofc after so many years but at the same time, I understand and support the fact he wanted to go back home and tbh while im not a fan of the isles or the leafs, he looks just as good in a leafs as he did in an isles jersey
1040 points in 1109 points is by no means an underwhelming career, y'all just be posting anything nowadays.
I remember he used to be so good in NHL 14 can’t believe this is how his career turned out
pj judas = the legacy of no championships or major awards. One ohl roy is it. Stats padder selfish captain who never played a lick of d or paid attention in the d end in his career going back to his gennie days. p j is always about scoring. His coaches never demanded him work on d end. That's why p j walked away from trotz and isles. The b s about his jammies was just b s excuse to walk away. p j is a good player, just not great enough to carry a team and needs supporting help. Isles couldn't do it, laffs have failed too. Maybe a team with a stud d man will help pj.
he won an olympic gold in 2014 and the world cup gold in 2016 so he's done something
I agree... underwhelming so far. His careers not over yet, but he could have had so much more success. He's an example of how measuring whether a player, as an individual, belongs in the HHOF or being given similar honours based on team success doesn't make sense. A player can be individually great, but if the team they are on isn't built to win, it wont matter.
I’m just convince everything the Leafs touch turns to garbage, Ballards curse is eternal. 😂
Ofc an islanders fan made this video
Tavares captaincy stripping a top news story of the week, if anyone else got their captaincy stripped I'd be making a video on it.
Bros just salty his team sucks LOL
@@imthebeatplug_8319Bud shut up im assuming your team is complete poverty
Didn't the Islanders already retire #91 for Butch Goring?
Only because Tavares left LMFAOOOOOOOO
@MikeBartner Yeahhh true but I mean you can retire a number twice but it's very rare.
They were never going to retire Butch if Tavares resigned, only did it as a final F U
What'd you say under the Hall of Fame overdub ?
I have no clue why I said it but I said "playoffs" and didn't till I was almost done editing it so just dubbed it HAAHAHAHAH
Tavares is still a 1000 point player and honestly on the edge of HHOF contention. That's a very good career even with the lack of playoff success.
Great video. I love that his legacy is an embarrassing joke. Couldn't have happened to a bigger snake.
yo must be salty he didn't stay with the isles huh?
@@ethanparker7900 I was like 6 years ago. Now that he's proven he's a perennial loser and is slow as molasses? Isles dodged a bullet! Of course, that's unrelated to the snake lying to the Isles like a pajama boy pussy and stopping us from trading him for some quality picks/prospects
I thought I was the biggest hockey nerd who knew everything about the game and I'm sitting here watching this video thinking "Tomas Vanek was an Islander???"
Underwhelming? He’s a hall of famer
Pretty sad and the JT apologists keep on mislabeling him as a point person game player (nope) and even if he was is that worth $11M lol nope. And his stellar .63 in the playoffs is laughable at $7M but he also gets more. The stalled cap is no excuse. Simply not paying too much for too little is the basis for any successful team. Too bad the Shanascam has gone back to the well and have given the playoff noshows even more of the limited Cap space. Such a weird concept.
Super productive player. Does not play winning hockey and doesn’t lead or inspire a group
I kinda feel if Taravares stayed with the islanders he would have had a better career.he kinda made alot of players careers
compared to his contemporaries, definitely an underwhelming career. if he retires today, I doubt he makes the hall of fame. but I think he has a good 5-6 years left in him. If he hits 600 goals, I think he can squeak in. Also, the leafs cup window (if you can call it that) is probably open for about half a decade more, so a cup could definitely solidify him in the HHOF
Sundin pulled the same stunt to the Leafs as Tavares did, but islanders fans are just sooooo soft.
Man, I just really have to add that you really disrespected Mats Sundin. One of the greatest players ever! He carried Toronto for many years...and took them further in the playoffs than they've been recently.
Tavares will be inducted if he retires with 500 goals.
Coming from isles fan this should b3 a banger
“HALL OF FAME”
Totally what I said in the first take of that video, for sure.
I think that concussion was worse than let on. He was already coming out of his prime so i think the concussion shot him out of it
Matthews chasing 70goals injuring himself before the playoffs then handing him the c .....makes sense
you know he loved making ts 😭
As a huge islanders fan he was totally underwhelming.....poor skater, non physical, disappears for at least 10 games every year and never saw him as a leader either....isles were and still r better wo him......he was never the once in a lifetime player as hyped....and on a personal note, he really f the isles over when he signed with the leafs in the midnight hour ( he was saying all the right things then bolted)
It definitely reminds me of the Johnny Gaudreau situation for the Flames if he didn't walk he would've been one of the greatest Flames of all time but threw it away to go to Ohio lol.
I thought this was about the lacrosse player......
Dudes probably gonna finish top 50 in all time goals. But i mean yeah, say your gossip queen. Im sure everyone remembers Keith Tkachuk as a bum too.
John Tavares might make "HALL OF FAME" 🗣
HAAHAHAHAHAH
kinda feels weird taking the C with 1 year left, unless they intend to resign him, He should sign under 5mil if he stays on toronto
You think JT has no lasting legacy in the NHL ? On top of all his money and fame I would bet that his legacy in the NHL will be greater then your legacy as a vlogger will be.
He had to live in Crosby/Ovi/Kanes shadow. That is rough.
do gaudreau next
Gaudreau was a 4th round pick that defied the odds lmfaooooo
needs to be a study on how the blue jackets make every player that plays for them worse
Has Johnny paid his back taxes yet?
Lmfaooooo yea that could be a whole different debate
Sad, this underwhelming Leafs run really overshadows how good he was on the Island.
they arent “taking” the c and it isnt being “stripped”. Tavares was heavily involved
Stripped
yea…he was stripped. idk why they don’t just come out and say it instead of pussyfooting around.
Made the second round 🏆 🥂 🎊
This generation’s Jumbo but a little worse.
True but Jumbo getting that Hart puts him on another level
@@MikeBartner That was my thought and Tavares doesn't elevate his teammates the way Jumbo did.
@Tdesparza And Jumbo has 3 100+ point seasons and is 14th all time in points. Tavares isn't even close to Jumbo
Jumbo on another tier of players. Let's not forget he was probably best player in the league for a couple years in mid 2000's
He'll be forgotten quickly, if he isn't already!
Don't u ever compare Tavares to Sundin
we can if we want
John Tavares is the best Islander since Lafontaine. He carried a middling Islanders team at best, to relevancy for years. He elevated the careers of guys like Parenteau, Molson, Okposo, Lee, and Bailey. Tavares wasn't on par with Crosby, or Malkin, however he was a highly elite center for a good 7 year window. Having 500g and 1000p before age 35 is special. Tavares is also one of the top Canadian junior, and international players ever. Tavares belongs in the HOF.
Gotta see how he finished out his career but yea I think he has a really good shot, even so still no actual legacy or league wide impact.
Tavares is not a Hall of Fame talent. The only Hall of fame worthy thing he's done is get a 1,000 points and even that doesn't immediately make you a Hall of Famer. He's consistently been good but never great. No individual Trophies, No 50 goal seasons or 100 point seasons or even 90 point seasons. Also even though it is a team effort he has never won a Cup and only made it past the 1st round twice. Plenty of other players that have had similar or better stats that have accomplished more that aren't in the Hall of Fame like Alexander Mogilny, Bernie Nicholls, Vincent Damphousse, Steve Larmer, Theo Fleury, Keith Tkachuk, Rod Brind'Amour, and Bobby Smith. He's only had 5 point per game seasons and his best point total is 88. Tavares is overrated, there's nothing special about him and nothing stands out about him.
@@joepettibone He played in a low scoring era. Those 80 point seasons in the 2010s would’ve been 100-110 points now. He was a hart finalist twice. Still not HoF unless he wins a cup, but he was definitely a superstar in his prime.
@mcj44 Those are some good points. He was a superstar at one point like you said. But also like you said he's not a Hall of famer
@@mcj44 Tavares will be in the HOF for the same reason as Shea Weber, or Daniel Alfredsson.
Sundin take was way off
What an unspectacular overrated player, grossly overpaid, what did he do in Toronto, looks good on the LEAFS.
LMAO that pic at 8:11! 🤣🤣
HAHAAHAHAHAH had to
Peanut gallery channel
maybe he needs new jammies
idk what this video is about and refuse to watch it so i'll add my two cents & leave.
Leafs suck
Edmonton Owns
Johnny t is a bum and is a disappointment can’t get past first round till last year he’s a bum and overpaid and overrated
he got out of it in 2016 with the isles
It means more coming from me because I despise leafs fans, but this will be the one time I agree with them. This guys is a certified tool.
Wild you posted this comment 4 minutes after I posted the video meaning you couldn't even hear me out, sorry the title/thumbnail offended you boss.
Yeah, John Tavares is a certified tool.
He is a tool for what exactly? Reporting that a captain of a major franchise was just stripped of the C?
@@ryandaly9093 no, his unbeliavbly bad bias. It’s on his ig more than his yt. He just said the caps kings and isles are better current teams than the jets. That’s just one occurrence it’s bad daily tho
@@MikeBartner ya I’m not tryna watch it lol your takes are all trash and coming from someone who’s actually played high level hockey as opposed to someone who has never played, you don’t really know hockey no offense