I've always found myself coming back to this movie. Something about the score, the production design, the mood. I don't think it works as a story, but I can watch it every year.
In many ways The Batman gets almost as dark as Batman Returns but has a much more thoughtful story that cares about the humanity of the people living in its own grim setting than either the Burton or the Snyder films did.
You deserve so many views. Excellent analysis. I have no idea how anyone could find Penguin or Catwoman sympathetic or say they were tossed away by society. Penguin never knew his parents, he was just a baby. Bruce KNEW his parents, that's why it was so painful for he and the audience. Plus, Penguin had the circus family. He wasn't without a social group. We never saw him interact with society prior to showing up in Gotham and knew nothing of his relationship with society prior, if any. Selina has a terrible boss at work. She's not discarded by society. She just isn't happy with her place in life.
It’s my favorite Batman film to be honest and I think it has more to say than you’re giving it credit. I think aesthetics are important and I’ve never subscribed to the idea of “style over substance”. Style is substance when discussing a visual medium. Was hoping you’d enjoy it more this time. Was really surprised by some of the negative comments in your chat. All I see lately are like glowing essays written about how brilliant it is now online, so to see harsh criticism like that again feels sort of odd. That being said, great job as usual even when I disagree. You always articulate your points well.
I also maintain Batman Begins is still the best actual Batman movie,if they could somehow combine that with the sequel it would be a perfect film. I hate how it’s now seen as something that had to be foundational so The Dark Knight could happen but at the time DK was just the untitled possible Begins sequel. Sorry to take up 2 comments and talking about other movies than the one being discussed here
Batman Returns was actually the first movie that I ever saw in the theatre, but when i was little i didn't realize how dark it was, i aware that different actors could play the same character and i thought this, Batman 89, and the 60's Batman were all part of the same universe. When Penguin said "they wouldn't put me on a peditstal so i'm laying them on a slab" , i thought he said periscope, and i thought he was making a reference to the Penguin submarine. haha.
Frank Miller had made stuff like the Spirit movie completely unironically (look at All-Star Batman and Robin, for just one example). That movie did not know it was a parody.
The original Waters draft had a twist where Shreck was Penguin's older brother (Oswald Cobblepot is a name that Shreck makes up). I think that would have added more of a punch if it were left in.
This was definitely one of those movies I didn't really like as a kid, and felt it was "too deep" for me to understand. The movie makes me feel disgusted and uneasy. There's something really grimy about it, particularly the penguin. Maybe the intended effect. I find Batman and Robin to be a more enjoyable re-watch.
As someone who loves this film, I ABSOLUTELY know that it's not objectively great when it comes to its storytelling and why Batman fans find it problematic. Though I still think that Batman Forever is a worse film because it attempts to do deeper things and it absolutely fails, and while I'm entertained by the cynicism of Returns, Forever just feels like a movie that doesn't really respect my intelligence. And I didn't bother with Keaton's Batman killing because his movies didn't draw attention to it, but Forever does and it fucks up by having Robin getting in danger for practicing the "don't kill the villain" moral, and then Batman causing Two-Face's death when he could've just fucking thrown some hook and tie him up the moment he lowered his gun. And don't get me started on Bruce being supposedly the world's greatest detective, yet he fucking decides to step into a machine that shows everyone on a big screen what he has in mind. ... Dear Batman Forever apologists, please just enjoy Forever for being a silly film, DO NOT try to make it pass like it's smart. The only good thing is Robin and how they create his suit and I kinda dig how Edward Nygma is a bit of a Syndrome prototype in his origin story. But his character and everything else kinda sucks. And don't give me the "but the deleted scenes...!" the deleted scenes don't fix the issues I just mentioned that kill the film for me. I think Chase Meridian is basically what I think about Forever in a nutshell: it looks nice and attractive on a surface level, but then you take a step back and realize that her character is extremely shallow when it didn't had to be with her concept, and that she's supposed to be a professional doctor yet she's flirting and getting personal with Bruce, who's essentially her patient. Also, the two Burton films and especially Returns are highly enjoyable to watch when seen as their own thing, especially if you turn the video saturation all the way down and watch them in black and white, they're gorgeous and fun. Batman Forever on its own is a dumb film with a lot of awkward bullshit in it, if it was exactly the same but the names of the characters were different, you'd all agree with me, but since it's Batman, then we gotta polish the turd. I don't see the point, we've got the animated series, we've got the Nolan films, we just got The Batman, all of them do a better job of exploring the morals and character of Batman better than Forever with or without the deleted scenes. It's just an obsolete, dated film.
I have mixed feelings about this movie mainly around Batman and Penguin because I always felt that Batman and Penguin should be like Eliot Ness and Al Capone from the Untouchables, Batman here is barely in this and the same goes for Penguin because he doesn’t do much since Scherk feels more like the main antagonist than Penguin and Catwoman as he gets more screen time (which I recommend you check out theComixKid2099 fix on Batman returns) I heard that Max Scherk was supposed to be Harvey Dent and do you know else should have been in this Killer Croc (check out Rinzler productions on What if Killer Croc was Batman Returns) this movie is similar to Wonder Woman 1984 and this movie is a head of Zack Snyder’s DC movies where he does a lot of Bible references and symbolism like for example Penguin trying to kill all the first born sons in Gotham.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't really get this idea. In my mind, the entire point of doing a Rewind is to treat this material with the level of sophistication we treat "real" stuff with. If you aren't writing a video essay about one of these films, it doesn't really count as a Rewind, in my opinion. This is a perfectly enjoyable livestream about your current thoughts on Batman Returns. It just isn't the same thing. It's not just that something is lost; I feel like THE thing is lost. That being said, I've always been on the record that I've never come to Geekvolution for Rewind, and I just watch the ones I care about, so my opinion is perhaps less important. I'm sure most diehard Rewind fans are excited to get anything, but this doesn't reeeaallllyyy count, right? I also understand that your life, Cap, is very hectic right now and you're doing what you can, but this just isn't the same thing.
I saw it in the theater at 12 and loved it,I still like it a lot but the Nolan movies make them all look silly. I didn’t like it as much as the first one and while the plot doesn’t hold up I thought it was awesome,just wish there were more from the source material in it
Got to be honest I'm not feeling the unscripted rewind format. It's ok but nowhere near as great as scripted. Nothing to be done about it of course. Does make me long for scripted.
I've always found myself coming back to this movie. Something about the score, the production design, the mood. I don't think it works as a story, but I can watch it every year.
In many ways The Batman gets almost as dark as Batman Returns but has a much more thoughtful story that cares about the humanity of the people living in its own grim setting than either the Burton or the Snyder films did.
I quite like the Unscripted format, but probably only for revisits, Id want properly scripted ones for films you havent analysed before
You deserve so many views. Excellent analysis. I have no idea how anyone could find Penguin or Catwoman sympathetic or say they were tossed away by society. Penguin never knew his parents, he was just a baby. Bruce KNEW his parents, that's why it was so painful for he and the audience. Plus, Penguin had the circus family. He wasn't without a social group. We never saw him interact with society prior to showing up in Gotham and knew nothing of his relationship with society prior, if any. Selina has a terrible boss at work. She's not discarded by society. She just isn't happy with her place in life.
It’s my favorite Batman film to be honest and I think it has more to say than you’re giving it credit. I think aesthetics are important and I’ve never subscribed to the idea of “style over substance”. Style is substance when discussing a visual medium. Was hoping you’d enjoy it more this time. Was really surprised by some of the negative comments in your chat. All I see lately are like glowing essays written about how brilliant it is now online, so to see harsh criticism like that again feels sort of odd. That being said, great job as usual even when I disagree. You always articulate your points well.
I also maintain Batman Begins is still the best actual Batman movie,if they could somehow combine that with the sequel it would be a perfect film. I hate how it’s now seen as something that had to be foundational so The Dark Knight could happen but at the time DK was just the untitled possible Begins sequel. Sorry to take up 2 comments and talking about other movies than the one being discussed here
This is much better and more focused than I expected, Great Job!
Batman Returns was actually the first movie that I ever saw in the theatre, but when i was little i didn't realize how dark it was, i aware that different actors could play the same character and i thought this, Batman 89, and the 60's Batman were all part of the same universe. When Penguin said "they wouldn't put me on a peditstal so i'm laying them on a slab" , i thought he said periscope, and i thought he was making a reference to the Penguin submarine. haha.
Frank Miller had made stuff like the Spirit movie completely unironically (look at All-Star Batman and Robin, for just one example). That movie did not know it was a parody.
The original Waters draft had a twist where Shreck was Penguin's older brother (Oswald Cobblepot is a name that Shreck makes up). I think that would have added more of a punch if it were left in.
Do you think that Killer Croc should have been in this movie?
I think batman & robin is more consistent than batman returns
I miss the old Rewind format
I LOVE this movie, it’s basically my favourite Batman movie.
This was definitely one of those movies I didn't really like as a kid, and felt it was "too deep" for me to understand. The movie makes me feel disgusted and uneasy. There's something really grimy about it, particularly the penguin. Maybe the intended effect. I find Batman and Robin to be a more enjoyable re-watch.
The stuffed animals in the garbage disposal always bothered me too.
As someone who loves this film, I ABSOLUTELY know that it's not objectively great when it comes to its storytelling and why Batman fans find it problematic. Though I still think that Batman Forever is a worse film because it attempts to do deeper things and it absolutely fails, and while I'm entertained by the cynicism of Returns, Forever just feels like a movie that doesn't really respect my intelligence. And I didn't bother with Keaton's Batman killing because his movies didn't draw attention to it, but Forever does and it fucks up by having Robin getting in danger for practicing the "don't kill the villain" moral, and then Batman causing Two-Face's death when he could've just fucking thrown some hook and tie him up the moment he lowered his gun.
And don't get me started on Bruce being supposedly the world's greatest detective, yet he fucking decides to step into a machine that shows everyone on a big screen what he has in mind.
... Dear Batman Forever apologists, please just enjoy Forever for being a silly film, DO NOT try to make it pass like it's smart.
The only good thing is Robin and how they create his suit and I kinda dig how Edward Nygma is a bit of a Syndrome prototype in his origin story. But his character and everything else kinda sucks.
And don't give me the "but the deleted scenes...!" the deleted scenes don't fix the issues I just mentioned that kill the film for me.
I think Chase Meridian is basically what I think about Forever in a nutshell: it looks nice and attractive on a surface level, but then you take a step back and realize that her character is extremely shallow when it didn't had to be with her concept, and that she's supposed to be a professional doctor yet she's flirting and getting personal with Bruce, who's essentially her patient.
Also, the two Burton films and especially Returns are highly enjoyable to watch when seen as their own thing, especially if you turn the video saturation all the way down and watch them in black and white, they're gorgeous and fun.
Batman Forever on its own is a dumb film with a lot of awkward bullshit in it, if it was exactly the same but the names of the characters were different, you'd all agree with me, but since it's Batman, then we gotta polish the turd.
I don't see the point, we've got the animated series, we've got the Nolan films, we just got The Batman, all of them do a better job of exploring the morals and character of Batman better than Forever with or without the deleted scenes. It's just an obsolete, dated film.
I have mixed feelings about this movie mainly around Batman and Penguin because I always felt that Batman and Penguin should be like Eliot Ness and Al Capone from the Untouchables, Batman here is barely in this and the same goes for Penguin because he doesn’t do much since Scherk feels more like the main antagonist than Penguin and Catwoman as he gets more screen time (which I recommend you check out theComixKid2099 fix on Batman returns) I heard that Max Scherk was supposed to be Harvey Dent and do you know else should have been in this Killer Croc (check out Rinzler productions on What if Killer Croc was Batman Returns) this movie is similar to Wonder Woman 1984 and this movie is a head of Zack Snyder’s DC movies where he does a lot of Bible references and symbolism like for example Penguin trying to kill all the first born sons in Gotham.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't really get this idea. In my mind, the entire point of doing a Rewind is to treat this material with the level of sophistication we treat "real" stuff with. If you aren't writing a video essay about one of these films, it doesn't really count as a Rewind, in my opinion. This is a perfectly enjoyable livestream about your current thoughts on Batman Returns. It just isn't the same thing. It's not just that something is lost; I feel like THE thing is lost. That being said, I've always been on the record that I've never come to Geekvolution for Rewind, and I just watch the ones I care about, so my opinion is perhaps less important. I'm sure most diehard Rewind fans are excited to get anything, but this doesn't reeeaallllyyy count, right? I also understand that your life, Cap, is very hectic right now and you're doing what you can, but this just isn't the same thing.
I saw it in the theater at 12 and loved it,I still like it a lot but the Nolan movies make them all look silly. I didn’t like it as much as the first one and while the plot doesn’t hold up I thought it was awesome,just wish there were more from the source material in it
Batman Forever is more fun to watch than Batman Returns.
Got to be honest I'm not feeling the unscripted rewind format. It's ok but nowhere near as great as scripted. Nothing to be done about it of course. Does make me long for scripted.
Heathers reaction!
Honestly I kinda hate this movie it’s my least favorite Batman movie