What Happened To Bayonetta? - Why NO ONE Plays Her Anymore | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 ส.ค. 2024
- As the most infamous character within Smash 4's roster, Bayonetta experienced an almost night and day transformation as we entered Smash Ultimate, from one of the most popular characters in her debut game to one of the least popular. Today we're gonna find out what happened to Bayonetta and why no one plays her anymore.
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My biggest problem with her is how impossible it is to kill with her on a casual level of skill
there's custom balance, I upped her two levels (alongside ridley) and she can kill with a non charged smash attack.
JUST SMASH ATTACK AND SHE KILLS FAST
There is even a simple kill with her smashes ....up smash to down smash
@@Akuma_yuk1 That's every single character in the entire game
@@Akuma_yuk1Bayonetta has the by far worst smash attacks in the game. They have insane blind spots, insane start-up, end and shield lag outclassing even that of heavyweights despite mediocre kill power and unique mechanics such as 0 priority (literally every move including projectiles can outprioritize it) and a charge up penalty of 50% (75% during witch time) that make them just straight up useless. Her fsmash can't even hit many characters right in front of her.
People praise Bayo for being such a "faithful adaptation" of her source material, but I don't remember the ethos of her games being "struggle to kill anything".
Skill issue
^ came into the game full intending to main her only to find her so bad in ultimate, just requires less effort playing someone else.
@@decidueyezealot8611 skill issue
@@echospace7347 Only skills that need improving are the problem solving skills required to pick a better character lmao 🤣
@@decidueyezealot8611 some of these "better"
characters don't have meta defining winning matchups that she does she bodies fucking rob and most steve's say bayo wins and the top tier can't even do anything like what she can. every character has there own reasons for use.
Bayonetta was the most excited I’ve ever been for a character so her legacy is kind of frustrating here. The level my friends and I play at is not particularly high and I find myself generally incapable of closing out stocks when playing her anymore. It’s really a bummer since she’s one of my all time favorite characters and I’m simply not good enough to really play her well in ultimate
I'm in the same boat. I CAN do all the fancy Bayo stuff, just not consistently. Like, I'd get them to the top and not kill.
Then they live to 206%
GAME
If you aren't smash god she's unplayable
@@aeit999 she's not unplayable just very difficult
@@luischeco3009 as a bayo main I find it easy enough (at my elite smash but not great level) to get kills from the rapid jab, dash attack, or forward throw at 160% or higher
I do get kills, I am rather skillful at the game, but sometimes getting that ONE Stock, or the opponent getting more and more "extra credit" as my percent rises and his is still as well.
It's not often? But it happens just enough.
Could you imagine if every character had more landing lag based off of how many aerials they used while airborne?
That should be a mechanich that should be universal across the whole cast. Just see how Terry Buster-wolf--spam Bogart can rack up damage out of a single A, his up B has no lag when landing, he should sink with no air mobility. And on top of that he is heavy.... this game really is for laughing, because if it was taken seriously, man ....
@@bredfigure2902 honestly, true:
I don’t get why Terry Gets Unlimited Supers.
It’s like a diet X-Factor Level 3 (Ik it’s an SNK quirk in one game to have unlimited supers while low health, but those weren’t mega powerhouse supers like Terry’s two available supers in Ult.)
He should have a maximum of 2 super uses. One for each input.
So you can’t just spam buster wolf/Power Geyser.
Smash Ultimate feels like the most hyped up game but has some GOOFY design choices I can’t take seriously
The story of Bayonetta really shows how hard balancing combos are in platform fighters.
Maybe that's why Dante didn't get in. Making a faithful version of his combo game would also be stupid broken
@@zeroattentiongaming820 not just his combo game, imagine a faithful Royal Guard.
@@kone7549 We already know it would just be another FE counter
@@zeroattentiongaming820 But that's exactly why I wanted Dante in Smash bros lol.
Also, if Dante played similar to UMvsC3 Dante, hot damn. You thought Kazuya had a bit movelist, Dante has about 20 special moves.
@@zeroattentiongaming820 I honestly think it'd still work. Have him be STUPIDLY hard to play. I feel like the problem with Bayo in smash 4 was that. . .she was kinda easy imo. (I'm not the greatest smash player tho). I feel like Dante should be a snowball character, who's tied to his style meter. Have it so that Dante's taunts (I mean the literal taunt buttons) bring up the style meter, as well as performing well in the game. If Dante get's hit then his style grade goes down like 2 letters. So if Dantes at SSS and he get's hit then he would be brought down to S, and if dante gets hit again then that S goes down to B and so on. Making it so that his playstyle reflects the games he comes from. Then maybe tie his moveset to that very style meter. Sooo say that his up tilt at letters D through B is the normal hightime where he just launches the opponent in the air. Then when he goes from B to A his up tilt then can be held down to launch him in the air alongside his enemy. Yk something like that. Tbh you don't even need to use ALL of Dante's weapons because Dante doesn't even use all of them. Stick to using Rebellion, because that's his most popular weapon. And have his smash attacks and other forms of damage incorporate his other weapons and attacks. I'm not game designer, I can just see Dante being a "I'm only broken if you don't suck" kind of character
As someone who plays a lot of Bayo, my guess for why not too many people play her is a mix of her being highly nerfed grom smash wii u/3ds, which caused all of the top players who played her because it was optimal to drop her in ultimate. That mostly applies to top players and more specifically players who came to ultimate from the previous smash game.
More common reasons are her extremely difficult combo game, which takes a bit to a) get used to and b) to actually manage to use effectively (her hidden triple jump that is required for some combos is like the perfect example for this) and the fact that she's from an adult game title that hasn't sold like incredibly leads to not many people having much familiarity with her, though for thous that do will appreciate the 100% accurate moveset that she for some reason has.
That makes sense. There are crazy bayos ive seen on quick play. 😂 especially paired with mythra/pyra.
Ooff i hate those dumb co-op combos.
I still think high of bayo and that She can be really good and she has to yet to be optimized in some ways
Well with Bayo 3 finally right around the corner, maybe she'll get a lot of new players?
Yeah is cool to note that all the moves she has in smash exist in the game is just so cool
@@echospace7347 Bayonetta in Smash feels less faithful to regular enemy fights and more like the boss fights of Bayo 1, where you have to doge their attacks or play defensive in order to win.
Bayonetta's biggest nerf was the shift to Ultimate's engine. Smash 4 had really close blast zones, allowing her combos to carry people to them. Ultimate blast zones are further from the stage, so her combos don't carry people to them anymore. You mentioned the changes to rage and air mobility that reduces her kill power and interrupts her combos. Smash 4 was a game that Bayonetta broke by applying pressure to the right places, and Ultimate has strengthened those places to the point that Bayonetta can hardly do anything to it.
Hmm i don't think it's about blastzones her upb just doesn't go as high as it used to
@@ulasgultekin6804 ABK also goes less vertical distance
agreed... the top blastzone height is way heigher now... she always fake killscreens with fair off the top (usually u can just catch their landing or shoot them with guns to finish the stock off though)
@@Myst1c_OW well the WT height nerf and ABK height nerf and WT not being frame 4 along with no longer having broken hitboxes definitely doesn’t help though obviously all those nerfs are justified except maybe ABK
Also if you do a full or half combo offstage, its more of a commitment because its also farther horizontally too
They even decided to nerf her taunts…
WHY DID THEY NERF HER TAUNTS???
As a Bayonetta main, I've been waiting for this episode.
Her unpopularity is part of what drew her to me. Something about the idea of an incredible power locked only to those with the skill and patience enough to master her, who would then be rewarded with one of the most powerful characters in the game made my skin tingle. I knew I had to become the few who could wield her forbidden power.
The other part? She's hot. Duh.
Nah your not really getting anything out of her, at least in Ultimate lol. There's no "hidden power" that Bayo has. Even the best Bayo's admit that the character has lost a LOT of what made the character good in the first place.
There is something to be said for coming up against a character out of left field
Been facing a string of Mario's, and then suddenly Kirby? Or some new DLC and suddenly random Bayo?
Two thoughts through the person's head at the same time:
- "Finally! Something different!"
- "Oh crap, something different..."
The copium in this comment.
Holy lord....
I agree with you man, but her combos and high skill ceiling is kinda what I liked about her.
@@CereDulce37 What about it?
Not gonna lie the beginning of ultimate was rough, but I stuck with her because I just adored her playstyle. The buffs throughout the years definitely helped and I feel like she's in a good spot.
I was the same way with Mewtwo
She needs a little more buffs not much but combo lag is T E R R I B L E. And so is kill percents I do main her so I know what I'm talking about.
@@Super-Mario-Evan1227 when you do witch twist and they somehow get launched up in the middle of the move with NO DI OR SDI
She still need buff, kill power is so needed. She can't kill incineroar past 220. And she has a lot of lag even on regular dodges
@@bredfigure2902 Bayo can’t kill without Smash attach, down air, or back air.
Truthfully, bayonetta is one of my best characters. It took me some time to really understand her combo game, but ultimately i use her more for fun but think ive gotten good with her. She takes a while to get used to and requires patience when learning her play style (at least from my experience)
I would say the same. I only picked Bayo back in smash 4 because I really liked her character and style. Then in SSBU, I stuck with her cause I just love her character. It took a little while, but I got used to playing her and I have decent results
Bayo is one of the funnest characters to play in the game but one of the most frustrating characters to play against because of how one sided her advantage state is. I love learning her combos in this game and can decimate people if they don’t know the matchup but yeah she’s really got some issues in this game.
Especially things like her forward smash that has a big blind spot on short characters up close and how sometimes you’ll accidentally get bats within off stage and it will just kill you.
Does anyone here thinks that "Combo Character" Is a valid fighting game archetype? I would love to hear opinions about it :D just for fun.
Ye i think it's a pretty broad and good archetype like a character that has long extensive combos or just loves of moves that flow into each other but usually has a harder time killing is a good combo character archetype in general there's jud the thing that some archetypes often combine like a swordie sometimes ends up being a combo character like mythra or chroy(chrom/roy)
Yeah I’d say so, some others could be Ryu or ken (kinda, they’re shotos but still rely on combos)
Yeah. Sheik has been in the game since melee and no one complained about that combo potential. OHKO characters though? They are always despised and seen as cheaters: Ice Climbers on Melee and Brawl, Bayonetta in Smash 4, Kirby in the original (that up tilt was ridiculous) and Kazuya in Ultimate, as well as Hero on release.
@Arktype 100%, mostly depends on the game and it can be a pretty broad term. I will use the very little knowledge I have of fighting games. As I just play smash mostly.
Stuff like anime fighting games usually have low damage moves, as you're meant to do long strings and combos. However games like Street Fighter and Samurai Showdown are a lot more fundamentals and don't have huge long combos.
@@N12015 for some reason… i fought some kazuyas on quick play, and I spammed Dark Pit’s side special. 😂 get em before they do anything.
Tho better players have baited and punished me.
1 year later and now there are 7 bayos in top 128 at port priority 8. (3rd behind rob and snake both with 9)
I definitely think they went overboard with the nerf stick. But she's still fun to play and hype when you do see her
Despite being nerfed to the ground, I still love to play her. It's just endless fun to play as her since you can switch up your playstyle. Sure, you will most likely die first but at least you can go out with... *STYLE*
It’s funny how I see this comment as someone who plays both smash and mk i main bayo and in mk i main sindel/skarlet, it’s funny how our mains are weak in both games and require hard work lmao
The thing that ticks me off most about Bayonetta's situation is they absolutely gutted her in Ultimate, then went right back to their old tactic of making DLC characters insanely busted in the 2nd fighter pass. Not quite to Smash 4 Bayonetta level but the likes of Aegis, Steve and Kazuya show no effort to keep them balanced.
Steve invalidates any character with a poor recovery and has to put in minimal effort to pull of ridiculous combos and kill confirms while Kazuya has some of the most broken moves in the game locked only behind the player's ability to do the inputs, and then his rage drive on top of all that so just in case you're actually winning he gets a handicap.
But bayonetta has the seventh best jump in the game, Steve and Kazuya do not.
@@orangeslash1667oh my god stop the presses. Bayonetta is actually better than Steve and Kazuya bc her jump isn’t complete dogshit
@@pickcollins9910 Bayonetta is like a slower, but more powerful version of Diddy Kong because her neutral ariel is just as effective as Diddy's.
Although Diddy has better defense, because he's a mid weight.
The thought process on balancing her was definitely more emotional than logical
Before premiere:
I could be very wrong since I'm not well-versed in Bayo, but here's my take.
Obviously, she's just a heavily nerfed version of her Smash 4 variant. (And in my humble opinion, that is the dumbest character to ever be put in a Smash game.) In order to... I guess "compensate"(?) for all the stupidly early kills she got in S4, she was just given almost no kill power in Ultimate outside of B-air and Smash Attacks. She can rack up damage for sure, but closing out that stock is an entirely different story if you can't land an Up Tilt to Back Air or hard read Smash Attack.
It's not just that Ult Bayo is so much worse, but she's also significantly more difficult to play for noticeably less reward. Her combos, while flashy, take quite some practice in performing against players because you need to learn how to follow not just DI, but SDI, and you must adapt your combos within milliseconds. Also, Bayo just doesn't really have approach options against opponents who actually prepare for her burst moves (Side B), so finding that combo starter in the first place is really difficult, especially against zoners and fast characters. This actually was sort of a problem for her in Smash 4, but it's significantly more pronounced in this game.
To top it off, there are noticeably better characters who can fulfill the "combo machine" role while not struggling to hit much of the roster or just getting more off one opening, like Fox, Mario, and Peach. At this point, it's more "Why pick Bayo when there are better options?" other than you like her or her moveset, and if you pick up Bayo, you need to commit a lot of time into the character to do well with her.
After premiere: Pretty much, yeah. It's just so tiring to play her when the opponent consistently lives around 150% and higher, yet you have very little margin for error.
I just buffed her with custom balance and a speed type spirit
Yess to everything, especially the last part. The only reason I stuck to bayo when I could’ve picked someone easier/better was because I liked her character and how her moves flowed into each other
@@gen5fan293 That's a very valid reason to stick with the character, and I'm glad you find enjoyment out of her. (Hell, it took me a long time to drop Kirby as a main because I loved his playstyle and his moveset a little too much.)
Personally don't feel she is difficult to play.She is flexible and can move if you know how to use her
@@ekh.123 While Terry has more power with his combos. Bayonetta the combo character with the best platforming and she has the 7th best jump in the game. Her jab can even hurting characters while shielding.
The strangest thing is that as the years go by, instead of disappearing completely, the Bayonettas are beginning to appear in tournaments, and they are beginning to have top players representing them such as daifuku in Japan, bloom4eva in Europe and lima in America.
and many better players are beginning to consider him a top-level character because he has a non-existent disadvantage, he does a lot of damage, he has that robbery factor that characterizes his game, and his problem with killing has been solved with new kill confirms like
up tilt > upair > backair
Same with the downward tilt.
side b> backair, etc., etc.
As the meta advances, players begin to improve their edguard, giving Bayonetta another tool to eliminate stocks early in addition to her combos.
making you enough 1 stock in 160 if you are watertight
and the other 2 at 60 or less
considers that the only thing Bayonetta fails to accomplish is defeating her few MU baddies, currently considered to be Mario, Sonic, and Pikachu.
It is an interesting case to observe as the years of Ultimate progress as a character considered lower tier has been climbing to be considered top tier
I almost never run into Bayos online, excited for the vid to drop
I play East US and I see a Bayo every 5 matches at worse, sometimes every 2-3.
hmm must be nice 😒
Lucky guy. Character is literally everywhere
I hate how whiny the smash community was about Bayonetta in smash 4. And then playing her in front of Sakurai, essentially whining in front of him about her.
They got what they wanted a borderline unplayable character while everyone got super buff & more cheesy
While also bayo carrying over her weaknesses from smash 4 with no compensation all glass no Cannon
So now people can pop off on her mashing or holding shield
i like the way you incorporated the training mode modpack in the video, super smart way to show frame advantage
Been maining her for a solid 3 years now. And to be honest. Most other characters I used as secondaries felt easier and more rewarding than her. Nonetheless she's always more fun to me.
Before Smash Ultimate was released, there was a Nintendo sponsored SSBU invitational featuring Squad Strike. Sakurai himself was in attendance. A few top players picked Bayonetta as one of their top three, and proceeded to show Sakurai directly how easy it was for them to string together a combo and kill off the top, with the crowd reacting in groans whenever it happened. Lo and behold, upon release it was incredibly difficult to kill off the top blast zone using her combos. That alone was a major nerf as it stopped her most infamous killing method, but she got the full nerf treatment other than that for safe measure. A few frames on Witch Time here, a smaller hitbox on some moves there. Perhaps it was just coincidental, but I still credit that invitational for taking out Bayo from Top Tier.
People ignored the low ceiling..... A veteran main playing her vs a inexperienced combo food ridley
@@Narrowfodder play smAsh bruh
Yea witch time was incredibly inconsistent.I managed to press down special and even see the animation but witch time fails.The nerf was honestly unnecessary in some areas.
@@Narrowfodder somewhat works? That’s how I know you don’t know what you’re talking about breh if the game truly sucked it wouldn’t have a fan base and have such good sales smh L + Ratio
Yea, that Invitational was definitely setup to nerf Bayo. I wouldn't be surprised if the top players collectively agreed to just put the controller down against Bayo and let her combo however she wants. She's still awful, so I guess people are happy that the game's balance is horrendous now?
Played Bayonetta since Smash 4 all the way into Ultimate. Early day Bayo was so rough I remember, the amount of times her moves just flat out didn't work properly were so frustrating. Glad after some buffs she became a lot better rounded from where she used to be, but I do agree she suffers at times where she either gets insanely hard to execute reads that can just murder stocks on unsuspecting players or struggle to kill past absurd percents.
The one buff I was hoping for before patches ended was just giving up air a little more percent to work with. With rage not being as prevalent as it was in Smash 4 I think her 7.5% up air is just not cutting it in the situations forward air won't connect at that high of percent. But otherwise despite her flaws I'm really happy I stuck with her to the end, despite everyone else in my region who insisted they would still play her in Ult dropped her day 1 LOL.
They should have kept the old up air.Yea nerf it a bit.But at kill percents it should kill from up top like before
@@69metersbelow25 Absolutely, so many situations forward air off the top is just not feasible to hit. Even killing at like 150% or so off the top with up air I think would be extremely fair. Just way too weak currently for anything beyond combo extensions and bullet edge guards offstage.
@@Merricktherox Bayonetta in Smash feels less faithful to regular enemy fights and more like the boss fights of Bayo 1, where you have to doge their attacks or play defensive in order to win.
There's often a trend with rebalance efforts over-correcting when nerfing overpowered characters.
In keeping with the panic nerf syndrome, let’s add pichu to the why no one plays list!
The only real changes they need to make is
1. Make it so enemies under witch time do not have hitboxes on their attacks. If I witch time you, that’s ur fuckup. You shouldn’t get a get out of jail free card bc of a lingering hitbox.
2. Lower (or outright remove) the stupid fucking endlag scaling on her aerials. In smash 4 it made sense but in ultimate it just punishes the player for landing combos.
3. Make her up air knock back angle sharpen upward as the enemy % scales. So it can be a combo tool at low % but a kill move at high % so she actually has a kill move that isn’t her god awful back air
I would love to see an episode centered around meta knight since the character is imo atleast a bit underrated and underused and it would fit especially with aba's crazy tournaments run
He's cheap to the point of making both Sonic & Kazuya look weak.
@@luisreyes1963 lmao that's a funny joke
I blame MK Leo at the Smash Conventional before the game came out and how people boo’d him for using her in front of Sakurai, she was basically untouched besides having more landing lag and frame data tweaked and side b no longer going pass shields. Then they nerffed so hard after that, if she wasn’t in the roster for the event she would have still been strong in ultimate with her up air being able to kill like it use to.
her combos should at least kill at high percents. it is stupid that i can bring someone to the upper blast zone at 120% and an up air won't ever kill literally because it doesnt even send upwards.
yeah up air should definitely be fixed or atleast make fair stronger knockback wise
Your tears…… mmmmmmmm… so sweat!
@@Kenshar1984 please don’t be a troll.
you know her having an up air that doesn’t even send upwards nor kill is dumb.
Her Ult up air sending diagonal is actually sick for combos! That's the one "nerf" that I'm actually happy with. She doesn't really kill off the top anymore, she kills off the side, especially with triple jump.
@@roamingtheinternet8652 She deserved it. And I play Bayo, just make her Fair or Nair stronger. And everything will be good.
With how her combos are structured in Ult, she doesn't need it.
Bayonetta is one of my favorite games and I don't care if she's considered bad, I think she's fun to play. She feels almost like playing bayonetta on a 2D plane, it's crazy
Tbh I still play Bayonetta a lot because of her games but also because she has one of the most stylish move sets in the game.
2:02 theres no conspiracy about it, this was definitely the reason and mkleo knew exactly what he was doing by playing bayo on a stage with one of the lowest ceilings in the game
As a Bayonetta main, I just wish she had a combo throw (up throw relies on reads). As a combo character, you’d expect her to have a combo throw, but nope. The best she can get off a throw is a 50/50 and even then the reward isn’t very good. And not having a combo throw means that sharking is way harder for her to deal with since all her aerials are pretty unsafe on shield. Really her only redeeming qualities are damage output and edge guarding, but even then her damage output on paper is different than in practice because SDI is a thing and other characters can just do the edge guarding job better.
Very true
In hindsight, her original announcement was a bit of a warning: she was designed to be as accurate as possible to how she controlled in the game she's named after. The problem is that Bayonetta is a game where you have to annihilate your opponents as fast as possible and the player characters are designed to compliment this. Smash 4 gave you moves intended for a stylish PVE game where you constantly tackle multiple enemies at the same time in a PVP centric game where most characters had their movesets altered to fit on a platformer fighter
imo in the transition from sm4sh to ultimate, bayonetta got treated like kirby did in the transition from 64 to melee.
meanwhile cloud got treated like how pikachu did from 64 to melee, he’s still great but he only has a few players, I think.
and then there’s corrin
*loud flatline sounds*
This is a great video, which is really rare to find when Bayo is the topic. Almost every other video about her doesn’t capture what actually made her so good in 4, and boils down her negative perception in Ultimate to her playerbase being babies that she’s not broken. You blew my expectations out of the water though, and you really did study up and learn your stuff. If every video you make is as well done as this one, then keep at it man
I don’t think Bayo mains want her to be broken dude. They just want her to be a normal functioning & consistent character… it’s not that complicated
Her playerbase wasn’t upset that she wasn’t broken in ultimate. They were upset that she wasn’t a functioning character. Every pro player at the games launch said she was garbage and didn’t even work correctly
@@pickcollins9910 Bayonetta in Smash feels less faithful to regular enemy fights and more like the boss fights of Bayo 1, where you have to doge their attacks or play defensive in order to win.
I love all your videos on smash. I've watched your other two channels but just understand too little about either game. Incredible content!
Me personally I would love, LOVE if her Smash attacks didn't clank with the dust bunnies floating in the air in front of my opponent. Like, I know they're super laggy and not a great option, but 50% of the time when I can line one up, I clank and my opponent just rocks my shit when I'm still recovering.
That part!
I main Ike and Bayonetta so clanking my Up-B with Ike and Smash Attacks with Bayonetta were always so atrocious.
@@luischeco3009 well good thing you can't clank with ike up B anymore but bayo shit out of luck & everything death on block
I still think something went wrong during the kill power's nerf process... like... they seemed to be so scared of complaints that now she basically can't kill without combos
While everyone can yolo kill move's
Amazing balance
@@ken7007 Totally...
Alabama with 5 top Bayo players: I have no idea what you’re talking about
Simple: SHE'S VERY BAD. Why is she so bad? Well, they nerfed almost everyone of her moves because Mr. Sakurai saw a degenerate OTK from her on the Beta.
Her moves in general have much more endlag making her combos less reliable (In general it was the opposite for the cast), her damage rackup potential in general is much lower but that doesn't allow more combos due to the endlag, the baloon knockback hurt her a lot, bats within can now cause an SD, her counter now is very weak instead of busted and her kill power is now next to nonexistant, being overly reliant on hard reads to close stocks but without having the mixup potential to force 50|50s that good glass cannons like Sheik, Fox, Game&Watch and Pikachu have.
and like it’s so dumb because, Ridley is combo food, the blast zones were much lower, and the person playing Ridley doesn’t know the MU nor how to use him.
That match gave her so many advantages but look what happened anyway.
In fairness, Bats Within could cause SD's when she was broken in Smash 4 as well, it just never came up because Bayonetta was rarely in the disadvantage state where it could happen.
Honestly, if they were going to take away a lot of Bayonetta's strengths the way they did then they should have auto-adjusted her combo game. Which is stupid that they didn't because tons of characters in game have moves with set knock-back so they clearly have the ability to let her have this benefit, but instead she misses out on stuff that should work and gets punished for it while still having a mediocre air-game and carrying over her lacking ground game from Smash 4. And with jumps, airdodges, and shielding being so much worse, it makes it so that Bayonetta has to play much more aggressively against her best interests because she is defensively one of the worst characters in the entire game.
@@roamingtheinternet8652 it's even worse the best player in ultimate was playing a melee player that had never fought her before AND had obviously never played Ridley. But you know Leo wanted to make sure she sucked.
@@ubadman1 Well, it was due to that but also because of EVO 2018 and the 2 bayonettas who held B for 2 minutes, not to mention how toxic one of those Bayos were to the point of being permabanned.
They in general wanted to eliminate any kind of vertical combo degeneracy, a big issue of Smash 4: Baloon Knockback, rage no longer affecting set knockback, higher ceilings and throws having less combo potential into up-airs. You now need to be very precise to KO with a throw combo. Most characters were roughly compensated for those with things like less landing lag with aerials or more consistent multihits, but she only got nerfs alongside those mechanical changes that didn't help her.
@@roamingtheinternet8652 I'll say this: Even without the combo exhibition on Ridley she would've gotten nerfed. There was enough evidence outside of that combo to warrant her nerfs.
That being said, I agree her nerfs were overkill the character really doesn't function well
she doesn't have any strengths that other characters (shiek, joker and Zss) can do whatever she can do better and with less effort.
Video idea: why no one plays metaknight
yessssss
Her buffs in the game were certainly welcome and being able to combo fair into rapid jab made her kill power way better, but her aerials are embarrassingly bad compared to everyone elses, fair nair and up air all have so little kill power that if you arent right next to the blast zone it just doesnt kill until like 300%. Its even worse when you realise her strongest aerial kill move in any direction is her dair, dair is more likely to kill off the top than her up air ffs because of dairs ass hitbox sending upwards, and you can actually combo into it with single hit witch twist which is hilarious
Bayonetta is such a slick and cool looking character and such a broken and poorly thought out design. The idea of an air combo based character that drags you up to the top is kind of fundamentally bad. Either like 4 you can kill people at absurd precents by just doing your basic gameplan, or like in ultimate it just doesn't work well and is terrible. Witch time was another thing that really easily swung between being comically broken and kinda useless. I do think if they were going to ruin her broken tools they could have made the rest of her kit a bit less awful, but oh well.
Still good tho
@@echospace7347 They are not bad, but you can really tell how the original main gimmick of the character had to be kinda gutted.
@@TheEmperorGulcasa Bayonetta in Smash feels less faithful to regular enemy fights and more like the boss fights of Bayo 1, where you have to doge their attacks or play defensive in order to win.
Bayonetta got hit hard with the nerfs in Smash Bros Ultimate in comparison to other characters in SSBU. Also, Bayonetta hasn't/isn't a variable character in the SSBU competitive scene since December 2018.
As one of the few bayo mains out there, whenever I play bayo it scares my friends because of her combos that I spent hours mastering on the different characters to perform her combos on. The problem is her transferring from smash 4 to ultimate
When you play someone who knows the matchup and knows how to counterpick her it becomes very frustrating. She is kind of a high risk mid reward kind of girl.
Well, this video aged poorly, given the fact she's a high tier now and quite common at the high and top level.
I don’t know if others would agree, but Bayonetta always felt clunky to use for me. A high combo character with below average frame data always felt weird to me. Also the bullet arts either being useless or amazing was strange to me. That’s why I don’t use the character, but if I had to guess why others don’t I would say PTSD.
Great series, keep it up!
Bayo is a character you find fun until you even begin to touch characters. Having to KO at relevant percentages, consistent combos, decent neutral, low-commitment options that don't require you to break your fingers every round, and not being a featherweight are all big advantages that other characters have. And that's only scratching the surface.
The fact that there are mechanics specifically catered to Bayo that nerfs only her e.g. higher counter decay and increased aerial landing lag, playing her literally puts you at an innate disadvantage that no other characters have to face. I've put a lot of hours into her, arguably my most played in Ultimate but basically untouched in Sm4sh. I can say with certainty that she's not worth learning unless you religiously play the game. I can play Robin and Marth casually and still get better results and the game feels more fair towards me anyhow.
I think it's difficult to balance a character like Bayonetta. If they'd overtune her even a little bit, she can turn the game into a 1 player beat-them-all with her ladders. But if you nerf her combos to the point that they're not reliable, there's no point in playing her. To be honest I think she's pretty good as she is right now. I just wish Witch Time was a bit better, it was way too OP in Smash 4 but in ultimate it's just borderline useless.
Lmao Witch Time is like a top 3 counter
@@willycheez7218 ye
If they made witch time frame 5 start up then it would be great, so there wouldn’t be as many “failed witch times”
@@jeanne2243 I know you from VN. Bayo players literally only using the move as they land isn't a fault of the move
@@willycheez7218 I mean actually activating witch time. I read a forward smash coming from… say Mario and then I try to do witch time then for it to fail :( because it’s a frame 8 start up.
Commenting before watching but I've never clicked a Vars III video so fast. I loved her in 4 but she was clearly overtuned and I expected I'd main her in Ult regardless but when Ult first came out I was dissapointed not because she was nerfed but because she felt clunky. I'm so happy that a combination of her getting some pretty solid buffs to be a working character, and me learning that Ult Bayo is an entirely different beast than 4 Bayo as far as combo routes and neutral ended up making me ADORE her again and she is my current main. Also shoutouts to Purity, Lima, Bloom4Eva, and TamaP Daifuku as really amazing resources of tournament footage and lab footage. I'm always trying to implement how they play into my game plan.
There’s an inside joke in Georgia smash that I’m the only straight bayo player anymore
I wished they would just wait on buffs and nerfs in general. Really think about how long it took to discover Falco and especially Puff in Melee. It's possible that Bayo would have had a fall from grace in 4 if the players were given time to find the weaknesses and master the match up with their character. I guess I'm just personally salty Pichu got nerfed so early on where players weren't given enough time to just get good at Smash Ultimate. Ganon was considered strong early on due to his massive hit-boxes and players just not knowing timing. The developers really need to chill with nerfs outside of obvious glitches and oversights, slight buffs here and there to certain characters is fine to me, especially if it's making a move work/combo like they initially intended.
Video Idea: Why Everyone Plays Hero
Most fun character in the game easy
Truly, it's just funny
@@Carlisho Actually competitive fans hate Hero because of how inconsistent his down B is.
I was there. In the days of Smash 4. Having to fight Bayonetta in bracket every single week. She wasn't very hard to pick up and become decent with, so she was fairly popular. That character was anxiety incarnate. One mistake, just ONE mistake, could mean your stock was gone, from ANY percent, at any point of the game. Any time you threw out an attack it was a huge risk because of witch time. In neutral, in disadvantage, hell even in advantage state, you could very suddenly just have the tables turned on you and you die. You had to pretty much always respect her and treasure any damage you got on her. Imagine Kazuya except the combos are far more flexible and true, and with way more mobility, and that was basically Bayo in Smash 4.
She was so hated that there was a huge amount of toxicity in the community surrounding her coming from both Bayo haters and Bayo mains, that was only growing and growing. Basically what I'm getting to is: Her nerfs were incredibly justified. Especially so the toxicity surrounding her would die down cause it was getting out of hand at the end of Smash 4's life. But hey, now that she's really hard to play and still is viable, she's actually a really cool character now, and I love that they didn't just gut her and call it a day.
Also a good summary as to why she isn’t played as much now. No more cheap easy combos to the blast zones, plus the deserved nerfs. Plus other new exciting characters came out so they just got tired of her. It got old
They did gut her and call it a day, they should just remove her from smash, it’s insulting the way she is in smash when’s she’s such a strong character from her series, she should be stronger, not op, but stronger
@@12947325793
Nah, I'd say where she is right now after all her buffs. She's perfectly fine. Capable of doing really well in the meta if you're willing to put in the work. She's a very solid character that is slept on by most players.
@@12947325793 Bayonetta in Smash feels less faithful to regular enemy fights and more like the boss fights of Bayo 1, where you have to doge their attacks or play defensive in order to win.
Bayonetta is actually a relatively popular character in the game
It's the only character I see
She got hit so hard with the nerf stick
I tend to play random characters because I get bored from playing just one, and I get excited when I get bayo because landing one if her combos that actually lead to death is super satisfying to me
I love this character so much, she really suits my playstyle... i'm young (15) so i have a fast reaction time and can easily react to di/sdi. I love her movement and neutral (conditioning people to shield and then getting free grabs) and after getting those grabs i can read their jump and kill them no matter the percent... if i catch someone's jump I can carry them to the side blast zone... and even if they miraculously live... they have no jump, and i can edge guard them till they die
Loved the video, and love this series.
I'd like to posit another circumstantial nerf towards Bayonetta too: the blast zones. On top of the distance of Bayonetta's special moves shortened, practically all the blast zones for each stage in Ultimate are much much further away than in Smash 4. This obviously prevented a lot of characters' ladder combos, and it definitely reduced the advantage Bayonetta got even from incomplete combos.
Back then she still wielded the Left Eye of the world. Sometime before Smash Ultimate's release, she lost the Left Eye.
Hello, Ridley main here, and I would love an episode on him sometime. Altho the reason why no one plays him is pretty obvious (he big), it would still be great to get a comprehensive list of his strengths and weaknesses :)
Big, light, not much disjoint nor combo potential.
@@spazrocketgaming424 that’s a lie he’s still a heavy just not a super heavy and Ridley has lots of combos with and without plats
@@echospace7347 Lighter than he should be and weak combo game compared to the most viable characters. Is that better?
@@spazrocketgaming424 Ridley has excellent aerial pressure thanks to his Forward air, neutral air, up air, and his speed in general. The downside he's more vulnerable than other heavy weights, so you can't afford to make mistakes with Ridley. He's like a high risk, high reward character.
I love how Sakurai’s choice for fixing how broken Bayonetta was on Sm4sh was to just keep her the exact same except nothing kills anymore
Why Sonic has no special lag, or Terry, they do the combos but can act instantly. Smash is pretty inconsistent with their balance methods.
Bayonetta is stylish as hell regardless of tier. She's one of the most fun to play as once you understand her basics.
Pikachu and Fox seem to be the only smash vets (Which I'd define as fighters introduced in 64 or melee) who have always been consistently great.
Peach and Marth would be honorable mentions.
Pika is the best by tier average also I’m only counting characters that appeared in at least 3 games since it makes for better averages
To put it in terms for the people who actually played bayonetta, her smash appearance in 4 is her gameplay in bayonetta one and her appearance in ultimate is what it looks like in 2 but she no longer has umbran climax to compensate.
THIS OMG
@@mimishit2638 Bayonetta in Smash feels less faithful to regular enemy fights and more like the boss fights of Bayo 1, where you have to doge their attacks or play defensive in order to win.
In my locals it's the complete opposite we have like 4 good bayos and we don't have anyone like lima or bloom to encourage it either
10:38
When the flying fuck did R.O.B. become a top 5 character? Man, I've apparently missed a lot in the past year or two.
He's been in EVERYWHERE in tournaments since the first months and I never pay attention to this scene.
@@grdfhrghrggrtwqqu must've just completely escaped from my mind. I mean, I would never expect R.O.B. to be one of the top characters ever.
@@k-leb4671 hah, neither did I. He's a bit of a dark horse in nearly every other smash game he has been in. But in Ult, he somehow was everywhere in tournaments, and was one of the most overrepresented things in the entire game if you look at his representation and lifecycle.
As a bayo main, getting opponents to 250-260% feels like she isn't even "balanced" anymore, she just sucks lool. Like you said she's high risk, low reward. It feels like you have to win so many neutral interactions in such a precise way compared to your opponent to kill, and bayo has one of the worst neutrals in the game. Her moves feel like they don't work or have an unnecessary amount of lag. Like her jab is frame NINE, sometimes people roll out in between the hits. Or her fair that won't kill at 100% when you're in the blastzone unless your 0.0001 pixels from it.
Literally just jab, Witch Time or use one of a billion back air confirms
@@willycheez7218 none of those options are consistent at high level gameplay
@@willycheez7218 all that shit laggy
People will jump over that slow ass jab & kill you even if they block it you are dead
@@ken7007 No character has a laggy jab 1
@@willycheez7218 unless you are bayo
Cloud limited charge buff was just a revert to how it was in Wii U launch of cloud.
me : "why no one play" oh remember me vars on lol, *start the video and hear the voice* me : "WAIT A MINUTE !"
Kind of a hot take: I wish all characters were LIKE sm4sh bayo rather than her getting nerfed to their level. I feel like sm4sh and ultimate have extremely restrictive moveset design which is why bayo was, and still is, such an interesting character
Issue with that is if everyone's that strong, the game just turns into rocket tag.
Project M had that issue when they tried to put everyone into Melee fox tier. Most matches were decided based on who got the first hit.
I feel like bayonetta's strengths in her moveset are misplaced. her guns are way more important then anything she does in the air and yet her dashes, punches, kicks, and arials are her main strength when they SHOULD be in her guns, and her magic, her wicked weaves are strangley her smash attacks and not rewarded for combos. I feel like her moveset needs a remix. perfect timing since bayonetta 3 already buffed up her moveset
She’s an amazing character in her own games, which is why I played her in smash 4, but in ultimate they nerfed her so hard she’s so unplayable it’s sad, they made her suck, all her moves feel gross to use, always a bit short, or too janky, or just wrong
Watch Lima play her, I can promise it’s just your familiarity. Skill issue
@@2000Doriyas
I see Lima still manages to attract the same toxic crowd as usual.
@@2000Doriyas Lima is literally one of the best Smash players, period. His off-stage bravery and risk-taking is on another level. The fact that even he can't play Bayo consistently, despite her being his main, says a lot.
I’ve never had a problem being able to smash kill with bayonetta, she’s virtually my main so I use her quite often 😅
Day 1 Bayonetta main here.
She is as bad as people say, she'll never be higher than high-mid or low-high tier.
The most annoying part is that the cheese she could pull off now happens against her. Small and slow hitboxes that makes moves miss, Witch Time not working properly, getting reversaled mid-combo, combos not killing against good SDI and all moves being very slow on shield with a really bad grab game which gets you camped out hard are pretty much all the reasons why people stop playing her. The amount of times my opponent really should've lost a stock and didn't because they either fell out of the move and did a smash attack on me at 60% to kill me, or the times I get a hard read and a smash attack didn't kill at 130% or the times I Witch Time an opponent and still get hit by an active hitbox or clank with it made me want to cry
« She might not be as bad as people initially thought after the nerf »
That made me think of Marss and ZSS
He made the joke « ZSS Sucks «
because people started saying that in the beginning of ultimate because of the nerfs from smash 4.
But Marss still thought she was good and so stilled played her.
And of course you know how good he did with her.
Unfortunately after the 11.0.0.
Her best combos tools nair, and boost kick got nerfed making her actually pretty bad.
And so know when Marss says she sux.
I actually don’t think he is joking anymore.
I don't understand why zero suit samus is so clearly better than armored samus so every nerf she gets makes me happy tbh.
Before vid drops : I think it’s because she takes some real skill now and she takes really long to kill someone and shes like sheik in a way that you’re working too hard for something that half the cast can do easily
Not even like sheik. unlike sheik bayo has no kill confirms outside of up tilt back air while sheik has tons. you literally have to hard read to kill someone
@@xmalin1 jab XD
@@buycraft911miner2 the frame 9 jab which can be punish at any moment of whiffing?
Or blocked everything is death
@@buycraft911miner2 you're telling me a frame 9 jab that fails to connect half the time is reliable? lmfao gtfo
nerfing her into the ground then buffing her later was the right way to go. It gave a valid amount of time to truly assess if the threat was dead in Ultimate and give us all a break from Bayo in tournaments before, only a long way into the lifespan of the game, finally give the go-ahead to some suitable buffs. Now we can be sure that when Bloom4Eva gets Top 8 in a US major (hopefully), we'll know it's with a balanced enough* character
Lima got real close last time at rise n grind 2-3 against lui$ and every game was really close including the last game so it’s possible
I am having a blast with her.Her combo game and witchcraft magic makes her strong but swift.
one of the things that was evident with how smash over its different games was the fact it had a heavy focus on party game aspect, but because of things and not thinking how far some things get extended to like with metaknight and bayo, it basicly created situations that the momment that person managed to figure out that 1 win state it just destroyed the fun of the game even on a casual sense. with ultimate it actually feels like theres a attempt of thinking the upper limits of each character which is why there hasnt bin a outright stupid amount of unbalanced things with the only one that comes to mind is soras Nair 1-2 land resets
If Sora was broken he might be getting results in tournaments. To this day, he has gotten a singular (1) game win in top 8 at a major. (Yay Maister!)
@@spazrocketgaming424 the limits of the resets are to specific preventing it from happening alot, even fishing for it. its broken if it can be pulled off, but its not consistent enough to ever be considered
I can't get over how much you sound like Edvasian. strange hearing him talk about bayo hahah
For Bayo mains to win against characters with better data she shouldn't get hate because she's already been nerfed to oblivion.
Your content is some of my favorite to watch on TH-cam
Love the vid as Always
With post brawl meta knight, ultimate bayonetta being given a much less consistent combo game, and cloud's sword being shrunk coming into ultimate, it seems the smash team doesn't realize it's more fun for a top tier character to be adjusted closer to the line, like removing a bit of cheesy combo potential in exchange for getting a bit more consistency on non-combo kills, which they did do eventually by buffing bayonetta's jab at least, and leave them as a good character than it is to just completely take out the things that made them good and take away the fun of the people that liked the character by pretty much shattering their character, duct taping together what's left, and pretending nothing happened.
Literally the only other Bayonetta player I’ve met in person was Jellocup. He’s really great, but I don’t think he’s playing much anymore aside from doubles.
Bayo is legit my least favorite character to play in Smash. She just feels so... weak.
Funny I just started recently learning how to play with her, she was very difficult for me to play at first but now I'm having so much fun with her! She's a great character!
the block button happened to her, any time I encounter a Bayo online it's like a flowchart, they do side b, I block and punish, rinse and repeat and they never change.
Isn't hard to do cause a lot of things my laggy then warlock punch
What she gonna do break your Shield spam safe kill move's
Imo I think her frame data should of at least been around 5-6 instead of 7-9. Witch time should of been a bit faster as well and she would of been better off imo
I haven't played this game in years, but I do love Bayonetta. I wish I could get a full Bayonetta game/crossover with Dante. "Bayonetta May Cry 7, Dante's Inferno".
You should do a “why everyone plays Terry” video
True! All 1 of the top Terry players