How Have Holy People Responded to the Old Calendarist Movement?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 ก.ย. 2024
- Excerpted from Q&A of Lesson 11: The Revelation of Jesus Christ to the Apostle & Evangelist John the Theologian, Series 2, by Fr. Peter Heers
Photos of Elder Ieronymos of Aegina (+1966) and Elder Philotheos Zervakos (+1980)
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This is honestly something that should be dealt with. I am of the opinion that the Orthodox Church should be using the same calendar in its entirety. It's so ridiculous that we even celebrate the birth of our Lord on different days depending on your jurisdiction! We are ONE FAITH, and we need to be worshipping TOGETHER on something that important.
Ideally we should not celebrate on a pagan date.
@maralfniqle5092 Ah yes celebrating the most important event in human history the birth of our God is pagan makes plenty since
@@SgtPiperHe did say Pagan "DATE" not the celebration being Pagan. Ask yourself why is the new date Pagan in his mind
@@lindamorgan2678American Christmas is a pagan date?
I agree with this. Those that went to the revised calendar must return. How was this even allowed in the first place? Was our church that easy to infiltrate?
1969 Patriarch Benedict of Jerusalem under pressure from World Council of Churches had introduced the New Julian calendar, on Great Saturday the Holy Fire did not descend on the Lord's Sepulchre. He commanded that the Old Calendar be restored immediately. The following year the Holy Fire again descended. The Paschal Fire in Jerusalem, Bishop Auxentios of Photiki, St. John Chrysostom Press, page 94.
God bless you for saying the truth.Calendar was changed only to decide us Orthodox people from each other and to get part of our church close to papism.Let’s don’t forget we are coming from one place.I pray God that we will return to it one day,I mean all of us United and strong.
Did he adopt the Gregorian Paschalion?
@@3devdas777 I don't know if he adopted the Gregorian Paschalion, when I read the Paschal Fire book, it surprised me that the Holy Fire didn't come down that year. I am not an Old calendarist, I do attend a ROCOR parish. Pray there is a council so we can be unified. It feels like the Church has Atrial Fib, our Heart is out of rhythm.
@@francinebotton2635 , I don’t have the book. It doesn’t explicitly say whether Patriarch Benedict changed the date of the celebration of Pascha to align with the Gregorian / Latin Easter?
@@3devdas777 I think the point is that there are many other days in the calendar that don't align with each other.
God bless you Father Peter, this tree growing from your work in grace will imho eventually bear very amazing fruit. If you bear it as you have been to the end.
Christ is born!
Thank you father. Your videos seem to keep me in truth as I keep moving towards Orthodoxy.
What’s holding you back?
@@user-gd2bo9eo7y I’m a minor, and my parents don’t want me to become Orthodox. I can’t go to liturgy on Sunday, almost at all. I think I might just be given this trial to bear until I can enter the Church.
@@ryrocks9487 One of many trials to come.
St. Joseph the Hesychast, in his revelation over the Old-Calendarist issue, saw they were still part of the Church. He didn't want to deal with the bickering. St Hieronymus said "I'm not with the ones who are bickering."
Old Calendarists are not the issue. They are the truth and hold the true traditions of Christs Church.
@@nntt9764no they don’t, they have fairly ecclesiology and thus would contradict Christianity if they were true
Many Greek Old Calendarists were in communion with Rocor as recently as twenty years ago. The Rocor hierarchy viewed them as a sister church even before formal communion. This fell apart as union with the Moscow Patriarchate approached in 2007. St. John of San Francisco concelebrated at the Genuine Orthodox Cathedral of St. Markella in Astoria, New York. It’s also not accurate to say that all of the “True Orthodox” believe that “World Orthodoxy” is graceless. The largest faction of the Old Calendarists see themselves as a resistance movement within the church (“synod in resistance”) and not walled off completely. The new Athonite Father, St. Ephraim of Katounakia, was ordained a priest of the most zealot OC group (the Matthewites) and was never re-ordained. And St. Joseph the Hesychast’s mother as well as his two sisters reposed as old calendar monastics. St. Ephraim’s mother, Maria the nun, went to the old-calendar Monastery of Keratea, where she was buried and her relics are fragrant. This history is incredibly complicated and rarely talked about because it doesn’t fit the narratives of contemporary ecclesiology (assembly of bishops and ancient radio Orthodoxy) - the calendar change for heterodox unity created Orthodox disunity and is similar to the struggle and simple Christian piety of the Old Believers in Russia.
What isn't complicated is the body of Christ. One is either in it or not. The fruit you bear, mostly made up of agape love, submission to God after Christ in the Holy spirit leading to a reasonably sinless life that is made up of serving others in the love of Christ shows you are in the real Church. It is that simple. Anyone who does not arrive at this life while in a visible Church old calendarist or new, could not be in the Church. Could they?
Christ is born.
You are right, it is a complicated history. Elder Ieronymos and St. John the Wonderworker reposed in 1966. The Old Calendarists in Greece at that time had bishops that were consecrated by a few bishops in ROCOR secretly against the will of the ROCOR synod.
Officially, ROCOR was not in communion with them at that time. on November 17/30, 1962, St. John stated in the minutes of a ROCOR Synod meeting: "The Old Calendarists have been knocking on our doors for six years. The Hierarchical Council cannot take the decision upon itself, since it recognizes that this is an internal matter of the Greeks."
The issue of St. John and Met Petros of Astoria is complicated by the fact that at the time St. John was there, Met Petros was considered part of ROCOR and not as a member of a Greek Old Calendarist Synod. Met Petros' history is very complicated, as for a long time he wasn't recognized by any of the Greek Old Calendarists and had tried to join the Metropolia (the future OCA), the MP, and ROCOR at different times. ROCOR under Met Philaret did eventually acknowledge the consecration of bishops for the Greek Old Calendarists and tried to bring unity between the Florinite and Matthewite factions, but this effort quickly fell apart because ROCOR did not have the same ecclesiology as these groups. ROCOR entered into communion a couple decades later in 1994 with the Cyprianite faction, but not all in ROCOR accepted this, and again relations eventually fell apart. Just because ROCOR entered into communion with these various factions at various times doesn't mean it was ultimately blessed or bore fruit. Elder Ieronymos, though he remained on the Old Calendar, did not share any of the fanaticism of the Old Calendarists and had spiritual children on both calendars.
@@3devdas777
It is incorrect to not identify Metropolitan Petros as a Greek Old-calendarist. He always was. He was a zealot on Mount Athos and when he went to mainland Greece, he was totally in the "in-crowd" of the Old-Calendarist. He was THE Bishop who was most instrumental in getting bishops ordained for the Old-Calendarist in Greece. If it weren't for Metropolitan Petros, there would not have been an Old-Calendarist Synod in Greece. Saint John knew very well who Metropolitan Petros was affiliated with.
Saint John had written a letter in the 1930's prophetically saying that Constantinople would eventually fall. It seems to me that things changed drastically after the blessed repose of Saint John. Perhaps he would have agreed to fully come in Communion with the Old-Calendarists by that time.
@@3devdas777 And one more important point: Saint John is seen at Saint Markella Cathedral, together with Vladika Leonty who secretly performed the Old-Calendarist ordinations! He was definitely on their side!
@@godsaveus4380 Have you read the history by Anastasios Hudson? The circumstances of Fr. then Met. Petros were very complicated indeed. Also, it isn't wise to make assumptions about St. John's position on this topic based on these photographs.
Geronda Ephraim of AZ has an excellent chapter on this issue in his “My Elder Joseph the Hesychast” book. A must read!
Yes, but Saint Joseph and Elder Ephraim always had spiritual children who were Old-Calendarists. They were simply told not to be fanatical and that they could stay where they are.
@@ryrocks9487can you provide the quote and reference to this from St. Paisios?
May the Holy Orthodox Priests here pray for this Orthodox Christian! For a good job which does not fall on Sundays and for ikons.
It is a shame isn't it. An unnesessary change. Thank you Father 🙏 Though I'm not Orthodox (with a big o), I've lived with and worshiped for many years with Russian Orthodox here in the UK.
What is keeping you from becoming Orthodox? To be baptized? To enjoy eternal life in this life?
@@OrthodoxEthos I used to live on the mainland of the UK, but now I live on the Isle of Wight where there is no Orthodox community. (well, there are a handful of old Calendarists who travel up to the mainland once a month to worship near London, but I, through poor health, could not join them (nor agree with their, as spoken of in the vid, opinions - of even fellow Orthodox). Neither (through severe housebound CFS/M.E health condition) can I get to even Portsmouth.
But I was part of a wonderful non deneminational fellowship in Devon for years, (after coming, in a very dramatic way, to know Christ Jesus Who is the eternal life) where I worked, at the same period of time, for Mitred Archpriest Father Benedict Ramsden, who became a dear friend and through whom I discovered Orthodoxy. I hope to in the future be received; but God is good in the meantime, and provides.
Do I as someone who WAS a Protestant (lol) believe that I've arrived! And that we are once saved always saved? ... by no means!
Pray for me
Lord have Mercy on us all 🙌😊💚
Rejoice in the Lord always!!!
I left Catholicism over Ecumenism. I don’t plan on attending a parish that supports it. Simple as. The calendar issue is just the tip of the iceberg.
If they are not against us leave them alone, love ❤️ them ☦️
Lord have mercy ☦️
Beloved Orthodox. I am hoŕrified at the popes action at Assisis and now at Sion. I relate more to the Maronites . I am deeply drawn to Orthodoxy. The more I research the more confised I am . Its a labyrinth of conflicting stances. Meanwhile the whole earth is slidng into a spiritual abyss. The hour is late . 2000 years of debate by great minds. How can we bring the peace of Christ into the world when thete is no prace amoungst Christians. I despair.
The Pope and Maronites are Roman Catholic.
@@LadyMaria thank you I know. Saint Maroun was Orthodox . The monastery he founded in Syria had a heresy problem which split them . Then they elected a Patriarch in union with Rome . They believed they would be protected under the umbrella of Rome as they did when they allowed the French power in Lebanon. They are increasingly unhappy with the Latin influence and are making efforts to return to their roots in terms of practice .
No need to despair. There is no problem Christ cannot fix. A debate over calendars shouldn't cause you to despair when Christ has defeated death
@@dianecleary1054 The only way to do that would be to go home and abandon Rome.
Just become Orthodox and trust God will guide you the rest of the way. Perfection and total clarity are not for this life but the one to come. God be with you brother.
My parents were Old Calendarists. We always celebrated holidays weeks later after everyone else.
As Blessed Seraphim of Platina warned we have to be equally as weary of zealotry on the right. He spoke often of this issue in his letters and sadly predicted that the behavior of the Pantelemionites in Boston would lead them into schism.
True
True, but he also considered the Old-calendarists part of the Church. There are similar voices like his in the main Old-calendarist Synod. Metropolitan Demetrius of the GOC is always talking about the temptation from the right, and he left Boston over that.
@@godsaveus4380 Metropolitan Demetrius has a recent edifying homily devoted to this subject, Jul. 11 “The Temptation from the Right” it can be viewed on the Orthodox Tradition TH-cam channel.
@@godsaveus4380 I’d recommend reading some of his quotes on the hyper-correct Orthodox. He has some very illumining stuff to say.
@@ryrocks9487 Where can I get that from?
Elder Ieronymos then embodies a moderate but acceptable form of resistance. The more extreme stance of the Mathewites already existed abt. 30 years before his repose. So this was known. Elder Philoteos blessed his spiritual son, Metr. Cyprian of Oropos to separate from the state church in 1969 due to its participation in the WCC. One might be able to forgive the monks of Esphigmenou for their (too?) harsh stance since they suffered literal beatings and starvation for simply not commemorating the Patriarch.
th-cam.com/video/cVRejxfbK9o/w-d-xo.htmlsi=AHYulIzxZmI2_IkY
Metropolitan Avgoustinos Kantiotis
We might resolve back to the Old Calendar if individual parishes and monasteries get a blessing from their bishop to use the Old Calendar. I know at least one monastery in the OCA that uses the Old Calendar and if this happens more we could gradually go back to the way it’s supposed to be
Hello Father Peter ,Interesting topic. Here in Bulgaria there are churches and even monasteries that are still according to the old calendar, but they are in the Bulgarian Orthodox Church, which is officially according to the new calendar. At the moment, no one sees a problem with this. There are also Russian Churches that are also according to the old calendar. But there is a problem with schismatics who belong to Greek Churches that serve according to the old calendar, which are themselves in schism in Greece.
@@iakov1906 I am curious too. Who decides who is in schism?
@@iakov1906 It depends on the rank, it can be done by the Holy Synod or simply by the Metropolitan or the Bishop who leads the parish. Defroking priests and monks are looking for recognition and someone has found it in the True Orthodox church which is schismatic.
@@Marcus-sk2xf It depends on the rank, it can be done by the Holy Synod or simply by the Metropolitan or the Bishop who leads the parish.
You have a Bulgarian Old Calendar Church. Metropolitan Photii.
@@georgipraskov8223 Only a Pan-Orthodox Council can say who is and isn't in schism.
How can you call it as Old calendar problem,if the Old calendar was there from the 44pc and the new calendar change everything?
When St. Hieronymos reposed, his Bishop was Met. Auxentios, who had been consecrated without the approval of the ROCOR Synod. Only two years after the Saint's repose, that Synod recognized all of the GOC ordinations. Neither Abp. Seraphim of Chicago, who had performed the first consecration, nor the ROCOR Synod ever claimed that the GOC had somehow lost Apostolic succession or Grace due to the jurisdictional chaos that ensued in the 70s. In fact, the ROCOR went into communion with Met. Cyprian of Oropos and Fili who had come out of one of the schisms based simply on his moderate ecclesiology. There was no correction of his ordination or anything like that.
So, in really, St. Hieronymos' example is a very strong argument for not just the contemporary but for the enduring legitimacy of the GOC.
Concerning Esphigmenou, there have been Saints who rejected one another in history. Esphigmenou is also not really with the GOC at this point. Certainly not its authoritative voice.
The accurate measurement of time and reorganization of a calendar doesn’t exactly explain why Pope Gregory changed the date of Christmas by two weeks. Moving the date did not remove error from the Gregorian calendar. Before Pope Gregory even made the calendar he already demonstrated that was not an Orthodox Pope. What he most accomplished by moving the date was to create a new Masonic jurisdiction based on a hybrid lunar solar calendar. This new Masonic jurisdiction creation by manipulating the calendar was also done in France during the French Revolution. Away what is most important is the “Appointed” time. It was “Appointed” on the 25th on the Julian Calendar by the Holly “Orthodox” Emperor Constantine. Which is January 7th on the calendar of the Apostate Pope Gregory’s calendar. The Julian Calendar is still used to measure time. Your watch uses Julian time. Longitude as found on navigational charts still use Julian time and so does space navigation satellites GPS etc.
With all due respect, father, there are a lot of misrepresentations here. The collective witness of the saints is certainly in favour of the Old Calendarists. Elder Kallinikos the Hesychast (who was the first to fight the name-worshipping heresy on Athos and was himself the elder of St. Joseph the Hesychast for a time), was a zealot and non-commemorator. Elder Daniel of Katounakia, in his 1925 book "Voice from the Holy Mountain," writes that the Calendar change violates the Apostolic Canons and is a stepping stone to heresy. Elder Moses of Athikia (the spiritual brother of Saint Nektarios) was a zealot, and a very rigourist one at that. Saint Ieronymos of Aegina was definitively opposed to the New Calendar (calling it "a door of evils") and was in communion with the Old Calendarists his whole lifetime. Saint John the New Hozebite (accepted as a saint by all) was an Old Calendarist, as was Saint Myrtidiotissa of Klisoura (recently canonized by the EP. She was actually ordained an abbess by Bishop Cyprian of Oropos). There's also Elder Habbakuk the Barefoot (the leader of the zealot monks at Great Lavra, whose grace astounded even Professor Ioannis Karmiris of the New Calendar), Haralambis the Fool for Christ of Kalamata, Saint Martyr Philoumen of Jacob's Well (who refused to commemorate the Patriarch of Jerusalem). Not to mention the many saints who concelebrated with the TO or considered them spiritual brothers: Saint John Maximovitch, Saint Philaret, Bishop Averky Taushev, etc.
The deeper you look, almost every saint of the 20th century was connected to the TO. Chrysostomos Papasarantopoulos, the Apostle to Africa, was tonsured a monk at an Old Calendar monastery near Kalamata. Elder Philotheos Zervakos, the spiritual son of Saint Nektarios, blessed his disciple Cyprian to join the TO in the 60s. Saint Savas the New of Kalymnos died on the Old Calendar. The famous Augoustinos Kantiotes of Florina (who was called "a martyr of the faith" by Saint George Karslimis of Drama), considered the Old Calendarists to be a valid church (you can find his 1967 speech at an Old Calendarist gathering here on YT).
The Old Calendar was the innovation of two men (the heretic Meletios Metaxakis, who was in communion with the "Living Church" of Russia, and Archbishop Chrysostomos Papadopoulos, who was the first to propose the creation of the WCC in 1920). It was imposed by threats and violence during the aftermath of the Asia Minor genocide by a revolutionary government (the Venizelist Plastiras). It was synodally condemned by Alexandria in March of 1924, and before that by the 1904 pan-Orthodox patriarchal consultation. The Romanians accepted it to please the 3 million Uniates they had absorbed following WWI, leading to another schism there. Even a respected scholar like Nicholae Iorga called the Romanian Synod schismatic because of it. Currently, the EP believes Roman Catholic sacraments are valid, is in communion with a group of self-consecrators (the Ukrainian "Church") and is increasingly preaching tolerance of homosexuality. You shall judge them by their fruits.
The adoption of the Old Calendar was indeed a great error with tragic consequences. It is true that many on Mt. Athos ceased commemorating the Patriarch when the New Calendar was adopted and that many pious clergy and faithful were justified in not wanting to serve on the New Calendar, just as in 17th century Russia the Old Believers had good reason for not accepting certain innovations adopted by the Russian Church. However, everything changed with regard to the justifiable resistance of the Old Calendarists when in 1935 the three bishops broke communion with the Church of Greece, took upon themselves the authority of declaring the Church of Greece to be in schism and without sacramental grace, and then ended up not only out of communion with the rest of the Church (including the Old Calendar patriarchates) but also suffered many tragic divisions among themselves. Elder Kallinikos reposed in 1930 prior to the formation of this separate synod in 1935, as did Elder Daniel who reposed in 1929, so we don’t know if they would have agreed with this development.
If the adoption of the New Calendar was a stepping stone to heresy according to Elder Daniel, Canon 15 of the First Second Council allows for priests and bishops to break communion with their bishops for preaching condemned heresy openly in church, not for canonical violations which have always plagued the Church and which may always be stepping stones to heresy. Elder Ieronymos, according to the life published by the Old Calendarist Holy Transfiguration Monastery, followed the Old Calendar but not in a dogmatic manner, not taking sides with their various factions and not encouraging those on the New to depart to the Old. St. John the New Hozebite was under the Jerusalem Patriarchate and not with an Old Calendarist synod. Elder Philotheos was against the introduction of the Old Calendar but did not break communion with the Church of Greece and sharply condemned the Old Calendarists who would state that the sacraments of those on the New Calendar were deprived of grace.
We cannot address every person you have brought up, but while there have been holy people among the Old Calendarists, a tree is known by its fruits and this fruit of holiness at least seems to have diminished among the Old Calendarists over time. Often when Old Calendarists are asked who are their holy saints and elders today and in the past couple decades, they often become squeamish and have nothing to say, or they start accusing of “elderism” those who would dare pose such a question. St. Joseph the Hesychast was initially an Old Calendarist but left them after a vision whereby he became convinced that he was drifting away from the Church and would be cut off and lost if he remained with them. Elder Haralambos of Dionysiou was an active defender of the Old Calendarists until 1950 as well, when he came to understand the foundation of their ecclesiology (no sacramental grace on the New Calendar). St. Ephraim of Katounakia was an Old Calendarist for many years also but returned to the EP and said he received much more grace after returning, as if the veil had been lifted. The disciples of St. Joseph the Hesychast repopulated the Holy Mountain and their spiritual fruit has been tremendous, including Elder Ephraim of Arizona who has led countless people to faith and salvation. Many more are the saints that have been produced over the past several decades who were on the New Calendar or were at least in communion with those on the New and weren’t in Old Calendarist synods, including St. Paisios the Athonite, St. Porphyrios of Kavsolavia, St. Iakovos of Evia, St. Justin Popovic, Elder Cleopa of Romania, Elder Justin Parvu, Elder Sophrony of Essex, and many more.
Within ROCOR, many of the holy hierarchs like St. John of SF and Met. Philaret sympathized with the Old Calendarists but did not accept their ecclesiology and refused to agree with their position that adopting the New Calendar causes one to become automatically schismatic and deprived of grace. While many in ROCOR sympathized with the Old Calendarists and tried to help them overcome their own divisions, in 1976 the ROCOR Synod realized their efforts were in vain and decreed that they would no longer deal with them until they resolved their own schisms. Of course, they went back on this in 1994 with the Synod in Resistance, but sadly no fruit has been born from ROCOR’s involvement with the Old Calendarists that, while well intended, was ultimately misguided.
Hi Father, I appreciate the detailed response. One thing to note is that when bishop Chrysostom of Florina and the other 2 bishops broke communion with the New Calendar hierarchy of the Church of Greece in the 30s, they did so as a last resort to force the Synod to resolve the Calendar issue. Their intention was never to "replace" the Church. They hoped a free ecumenical council in Russia would promptly resolve the issue. This is very clear when you read the primary sources. Unfortunately, that council never materialized.
The "gracelessness" argument gets a lot of traction, but it was actually Chrysostomos Papadopoulos who first provided the grounds for it. In response to the Greek government's 1923 question to him, whether the Church of Greece could adopt the New Calendar, *his* words were that such a change, without ecumenical consent, would make the Church of Greece de facto "schismatic" vis à vis the others. And as you well know, according to Basil's First Canon, schismatics "can not impart grace to others, having themselves forfeited it." Do I think the Church of Greece actually lost grace in 1924? No. Am I as confident that Archbishop Elpidophoros has grace in 2024? That's very questionable. I know you'll say thats a Protestant idea or uncharitable, but it is what it is. I dont see how one can repeatedly subvert the very foundations of our religion and have the Holy Spirit. Ivan Adreyev was of the same opinion with regard to the Moscow Patriarchate.
I guess my big picture view is this: when, in the future, God willing, the Patriarchates return to the Old Calendar and abandon ecumenism, how can we say that the Old Calendarists, who kept the faith and valid apostolic succession for these intervening 100 years (albeit not all of them), were "schismatics" or "outside the Church"? Many times in Church history (Monothelite controversy, Iconoclasm), it is only a handful of bishops and monks who preserved the faith, often in the face of conciliar anathemas! And yet today we honour them as saints. How can the Church, the spotless bride of Christ, be wrong for 100 years??
All this to say I really do value your content and hope we can eventually work together to offer a strong witness to Orthodoxy.
@@OrthodoxEthos Also, my point about Zervakos or Saint John Maximovitch was that, whatever their personal ecclesiology, they treated the Old Calendarists as having valid priesthood and grace, which I dont think you believe (though I might be wrong). So they really do not support what you are saying.
The New Calendarists would not have changed to the New calendar on their own if Rome would have never changed the calendar.
rome changed it because the old one is just not a verge good calendars it’s off
The new calendar of the Orthodox Church is the Milanković calendar. (look it up) It is not identical with the Gregorian calendar which is used by Roman catholics.
It's true that the GOC went through lots of problems with the ROCOR-ordained Bishops (troubles that Met. Chrysostomos formerly of Florina foresaw and apparently for this reason he didn't make further Bishops) but on the other hand things were advancing in world Orthodoxy as well, and we see a growing officially endorsement of ecumenism that so far has peaked in Havana / Crete, let's not forget the Antioch Communion agreement. It's quite clear that if even that the official decision of a Patriarchate to commune with heretics leads to any decisive steps there really is no resistance to ecumenism left in the Hierarchy. We have seen the one Bishop in the SPC who tried to actually do something (getting the Synod to leave the WCC) be "deposed" for bogus reasons.
The main reasons I cannot become an Old Calendarist are the rejection of the saints (the ones mentioned and also St. Sophrony, and then different ones can't agree on others like St. John the Wonderworker) and also their inability to answer the question of the Holy Fire. If they are asked if the Holy Fire is from God or Man, if they reply God, one must wonder how a church they consider Graceless is still the one that receives it (and the other annual miracles), and if they say it's from man, they are at a loss to account for the hagiography of St. Tounom the Emir. They must say that it was from God then and then suddenly, whilst still identical to the original miracle, has now become a fabrication, or they must deny the hagiography and tradition of it. Either case puts them in a bad predicament.
And then there's the Neo-Donatist ecclesiology that half the time winds up becoming essentially Protestant "invisible church" but with more Orthodox sounding language, and the other half results in, if followed to its logical conclusion, results in basically the entire Russian Church losing grace by certainly the 19th century (by their strict criteria of one believing a heresy losing grace before even being condemned by a council) and the entire Greek church certainly losing grace before the Old Calendar movement even came into existence (since the ecumenist language was present before the new calendar was introduced). "A CRITIQUE OF OLD CALENDARIST ECCLESIOLOGY"
Panagiotis M. really gets into this issue with old calendarism extremely well.
All that said, it's indeed notable that old calendarism has shifted, from a more internal issue where the Greek Church was persecuting people just keeping to the Old Calendar, to those people eventually developing a Neo-Donatist ecclesiology, and sometimes getting involved in other controversies like the whole name worshipping ordeal. The Old Calendarists of today are not the same of those in the 50s and before. I have encountered Old Calendarist laity that venerate Sts. Porphyrios and Paisios, and recognize grace in the churches they communed with, but not old calenderist hierarchs, at least ones still living.
I agree about the rejection of saints, I really love Romanian Orthodox elders of the recent decades. Elders like Arsenie Papacioc and Paisie Olaru have made big spiritual help to me and I can never see them as "fake". You know them by their fruits and the saints in the "World Orthodox" have bore great fruit.
The absolute vast majority of Old Calendarists are all in one communion under the GOC and their Sister Churches. All the fringe groups which barely have any numbers and many aren't even on the Old Calendar or aren't even ordained, don't even count as having any real say. The amount of mischaracterization of the Old Calendarists is ridiculous and does not bode well for us in so-called "Word Orthodoxy". The overwhelming majority of them, who are all in one communion, do NOT think that we do not have Grace. They don't even believe themselves to be a "separate" Church. They view themselves as being part of the same Church as us but have walled themselves off from Ecumenism which is sadly extremely prevalent in "World" Orthodoxy. They view our Patriarchs, Bishops, Priests, Deacons to be REAL clergy and who have Grace. They even travel to the Holy Land and Mount Sinai for pilgrimages. They absolutely view St. John the Wonderworker as a Saint since they were literally in communion with him. St. John used to literally serve liturgy with these same Old Calendarists.
They have LESS schisms and fewer disorders than we do currently. But we continue to slander them and mischaracterize them. It would really help us if we stopped focusing on the tiny irrelevant crazy schismatics and focus on who the actual real and canonically ordained Old Calendarists are.
The zealots have a problem with these types of accusations because they are wrong.
First: You probably don't speak Greek, so you don't know that there is a public video of the "lamp-lighter" of the Holy Sepulchre who says that he lights the Holy Fire. From that point on, every Pascha period, it's on public television in the Orthodox countries. The lamp-lighter calls it a holy service which sanctifies the fire. And that's not what history shows us. Make your own conclusions. This is not an assumption, as much of what you say, is.
Secondly, our unfortunate people who have made the Old-Calendarists to be worse than Jehovah's Witnesses, distort facts all the time. They, at least the main Synod (which is really the only one we should take seriously, for now), are not Donatist. Our side can be Donatist when we "ok" their Saints (because most of them didn't say we are graceless), but don't "ok" others, who belong to the same bishops, because they see how much ecumenism has overtaken our hierarchy. Why can't we be smart enough and at least wait for a Pan-Orthodox Council to decide about them?
@@godsaveus4380 send this video. μιλάω πολυ λίγο ελληνικά αλλά η γυναίκα μου μιλάει ελληνικά πολύ καλά (είναι από Ελλάδα)
Even if this does check out, I'd like to see whose making the cloud come on Mt. Sinai, the river Jordan reverse on Theophany, the snakes arriving in Kefalonia, and all the other miracles attested before the 1920s that haven't ceased (and have started happening on the New Calendar too in the case of the snakes). Unless there's a lot of ad hoc to throw around.
These are not assumptions, this is based on what a GOC deacon (I'm almost certain he is GOC) said in response to the article by Panagiotis I mentioned. He explicitly stated that the trial condemning a heretic is merely recognizing that the heretic has lost grace rather than taking away at that decree the heretic's ability to administer the mysteries. This introduces a neo-donatist ecclesiology since if heretics lose Grace before being formally deposed, since we can't read anyone's mind, we can never know we are receiving the mysteries because the priest could always be a secret heretic. This is the same problem with donatism in that you can't know if the priest is secretly sinning.
Old Calendarists also can't seem to agree on who is or isn't a saint that was involved with "world Orthodoxy," and some can't even agree on which bishops constitute the "True" Orthodox Church. This is based on the testimony of someone that was involved in the groups and asked people for a list of bishops that were acceptable. The saints statement is based on my own interactions with Old Calendarists. I will say most venerate St. John the Wonderworker but there are a few that don't since he had some dealings with the "world Orthodox." Fr. Seraphim Rose is also a controversial figure (though that applies for the greater communion of Orthodox as well), for on one hand he spoke of True Orthodoxy and positively about Old Calendarists, on the other hand he clearly spoke of those on the new calendar as having grace, and it's possible he wasn't baptized in a way agreeable to old Calendarists (some on the new calendar don't think he's a saint because of this issue though, to be fair).
The thesis of the article, and my conclusion too, anyway, is not that the Old Calendarists are deprived of grace or not part of the Church, though some most likely are and there is the danger of heading in that direction at the very least, but it is to combat the claim that the main communion of Orthodox are graceless, because taking the ecclesiastical position required to maintain this leads to a self defeating model that renders most if not all old calendarists likewise graceless. If there are old calendarists hierarchs that still maintain the grace amongst the likes of Sts. Porphyrios and Paisios, I am happy to hear it.
@@RaptorLlama th-cam.com/video/N--IvVLT9M8/w-d-xo.html
The Old-Calendarists have even more miracles. For example, every year, until the opening of his grave, Saint John of Amphiali's grave exhumed holy water right when his yearly memorial service started. Many witnesses can attest to this. The miracle of the blood coming out of the tree on the feast of St. Nicholas of Vouneni is another example.
The traditional Julian calendar is the one that Christ used
Christ never used a calendar 😆
The Julean calendar was the calendar that was in use in His age.
No, He used the Hebrew calendar. The Church has always used the Julian calendar.
@@Razamaniac We don't know if He did or not. He would have been on the Hebrew calendar which is part of the Faith Christ made and practiced after His incarnation.
This is probably one of the most important details to study. If Christ used it then it was blessed and is the easiest way to find what is the most accurate date.
This is a proof that many orthodox are dumm
Father, I was baptized in an old-calendar church but never really became a member of the church because it’s in an area far from my house. When I started attending church again I went to my local parish that’s new-calendar and have been receiving Holy Communion there for the past year. Does this now mean I have to stay in the new-calendar Church or can I switch over? And should i? I don’t think the Church follows “gracelessness” and I’ve met pious people there. Also my spiritual father is from the new-calendar church, and I don’t have any connection to the old-calendar church I was baptized in.
U should go to old-calendar church
I would like to clarify something: Many people think that the “new calendar” of the Orthodox Church is identical to the Gregorian calendar used by Roman catholics. But that isn’t true. The “new calendar” of the Orthodox Church is the Milanković calendar which was invented by the Serbian physicist Milutin Milanković. His calendar is much more scientifically accurate than the Gregorian calendar.
We should not conform Holy Orthodoxy to Roman Catholic New Calendar
Revised Julian calendar is not papist Gregorian calendar
The Saints of the Church would never have come to the point that we've come to today. Today it's so easy for many people to call the Old-Calendarists schismatics. Metropolitan Avgoustinos of Florina said that only a Pan-Orthodox Council can say so. As far as I know, not even the Church of Greece calls them schismatic, but a parasynagogue, and as such, they still have sanctifying Grace. They are not schismatic. Both sides have gone too far. (Of course, there are probably some which are schismatic). We should just look at the main Old-calendarist Synod (which is 95% of them anyway), and consider them the ones who came from ROCOR, because they do. History proves this. Besides Elder Hieronymos, they have so many other Saints, and even today, their hierarchy is much less secular than the other option.
When ROCOR joined Moscow Patriarchate, they had to accept each other's Saints. Let's be careful what we say. Many of ROCOR'S catacomb Saints called the Moscow Patriarchate "graceless."
@@filaretosthezealot3301 Yes, and meanwhile the Roman Catholics and Protestants are not baptized at all. Something is seriously wrong with that.
Wow you have both brought up excellent points
You are right that a Pan-Orthodox Council will need to judge the matter, but if the Patriarchs called such a council would any of the Old Calendarists attend? Would they even recognize it as authoritative? Part of the problem is that while Canon 15 of the First-Second Council allows for a priest or bishop to cease commemorating a chief hierarch if the chief hierarch is preaching a heresy that is condemned by a past Council or Church Father, this canon does not allow for the complete breaking of communion and establishment of separate hierarchy. In establishing a separate hierarchy, the Old Calendarists have ceased to be recognized as priests and bishops in the Church, so the would likely not be invited to such a council, nor are they likely to attend.
Several of the recent Athonite saints and holy elders were with the Old Calendarists at one time but left them and did not advise others to join them (St. Joseph the Hesychast, St. Ephraim of Katounakia, Elder Haralambos of Dionysiou, Elder Ephraim of Arizona) and several others spoke against the Old Calendarist position. Aside from Elder Ieronymos, I haven't seen the Old Calendarists produce lives of recent saints and elders who belonged to them and agreed with their ecclesiology. Whenever I ask them about this (including Met Demetrius of America), the response is always that they are "too humble" to produce such things, which is not very convincing.
@@3devdas777 On the other hand, the point of the Old-Calendarists is: who will call this Pan-Orthodox Council? Will the ecumenists condemn ecumenism? Plus they had their council in Crete, and ironically, they solidified ecumenism.
I myself have never asked that question, but listening to Metropolitan Demetrius' sermons, it doesn't sound like he'd make such a comment.
@@3devdas777 Also, there are many publications in Greek, of the lives of Holy people from among the ranks of the Old-Calendarists. They're mostly in Greek.
Curious. I was just looking at some of the OC groups last night, and here's this video today.
The Holy Spirit unites us 😉
The time is coming when all that restrained from Christs path will have to repent or they won’t have lampstand! Time was given-100 years and it’s already 103 years and soon, very soon they will have to repent or Christ Himself will deal with them!
What ought we to make of things like the miraculous appearance of the cross over the Old Calendarist meeting in Greece, or the seemingly clear judgement of God as regards the peculiar death of Met Cyprian of Fili?
The photos from the funeral of Met Cyprian are disturbing but I don't know what is best to conclude from them.
Regarding the miraculous appearance of the cross over Athens in 1925 on the Old Calendar Feast of the Exaltation of the Cross, this can be seen as a miracle to encourage those who wanted to remain on the Old Calendar at that time, and to show the error of introducing the New Calendar in Greece. The introduction of the New Calendar was an unacceptable and tragic innovation. Not a single saint or elder who reposed in communion with those who served on the New Calendar has considered the introduction of the New Calendar as something blessed, but rather as an unfortunate innovation, though not a dogmatic heresy.
The 1925 miracle does not necessarily vindicate everything said and done by the various Old Calendarist groups after 1925. In particular, it does not necessarily mean that 10 yrs afterwards it was blessed for the three bishops to break communion with the Church of Greece to lead a separate synod, declaring the Church of Greece to be in schism and without grace in their Mysteries. St. Nikolai of Zica and many others supported those who wanted to remain on the Old Calendar prior to this act in 1935. When the three bishops broke off in 1935 , they were not supported in this by the other local churches that had remained on the Old Calendar, so they ended up out of communion with the entire rest of the Church. Shortly after this 1935 decision, the Old Calendarists became plagued by schisms mostly over the encyclicals declaring that there was no grace in the mysteries of those serving on the New Calendar, a position officially still held by the various Matthewite factions and which the Florinites also officially held until trying to distance themselves from this position more recently.
@@3devdas777 thank you so much! I didn’t know that about the other Old Calendar Churches not breaking off!
@@3devdas777 You are aware Saint Nikolai refused to concelebrate with the Gree New Calendarists in 1936 on Athos right?
@@evangelosnikitopoulos , yes but St. Nikolai did not agree with forming a separate hierarchy that was not in communion with local churches that used the New Calendar. He remained in the Serbian Church which was in communion with the Church of Greece and other churches that used the New Calendar. Of course, he was against this unacceptable innovation and we should hope for all Orthodox to return to the same calendar, but this doesn’t justify the Old Calendarists who have broken communion with all local Orthodox churches whether they use the Old Calendar or the New.
Instead of asking about the old calendar movement we should ask about the heretical movement of the new calendar
Fr Heers you do not mention the methodology of canonical apotihisei? Which ceases communion with heretical bishops and patriarchates without causing schism.
Why do we need to wait for another Council? To determine what? 6 Councils have dealt with the issues of Exumenism excplicitly
Maybe you havent seen it but Fr Peter Heers went over this in his Russian Catacomb series and made a video in itself for this very topic, I recomend it
The Old Calendarist’s call themselves “Genuine Orthodox”, but more importantly refer to themselves as the the “rebels” of the Church of Greece. They (the 2 mainstream Synods, which compose the 90% of the movement and who will very likely unite one day anyway), do not view the current Church of Greece graceless (yet*), neither world Orthodoxy as graceless (yet*), in-fact the former Patriarch of Jerusalem had a great relationship with the churches based in New York. They believe that a Panorthodox Council must be held between all churches (old calendarist, world orthodox) and it will decide which church has grace or not, but until then do not commune with the official Church of Greece nor with the churches that it communes with. If breaking communion if schism, then why aren’t we calling members of the Russian Orthodox Church schismatics for breaking communion with the Patriarche of Constantinople? That would be silly, as their faith is still Orthodox! In my opinion, it’s the same with the Old Calendarists. They never officially declared their departure from the Church or Orthodoxy to go find their own churches, they simply want to preserve the Faith in its original form and wish for the official church to do the same. The Matthewites are the true schismatics and essentially members of a cult, they view ONLY their specific Synods as being the One Church, think everyone is a heretic, and even venerate Mathew of Bresthena as a Saint (approaching Papic like levels when referring to him). They, however, are not the majority of Old Calendarists.
Unfortunately, as someone who knows told me, many bishops in the GOC are already - and have been thinking and talking - like Mathewites…. I pray that this “temptation o the right” has not and will not continue and consume them!
@@OrthodoxEthos That’s unfortunate, it goes against the ecclesiology of Chrysostom of Florina himself. I personally believe that the issue of grace in the churches of the new calendar has to be resolved, as the fact that we have liturgical division between our churches is in fact a problem, as is ecumenism and other modernizations (which are mainly occurring in the Church of Greece). We have a need for a Panorthodox Council, I feel like we’ve gone too long without one, that was after all the original purpose behind the Old Calendarist movement. They were rebelling until a council. The delay of such a council has led to the break up of our church, and as time goes on we’re seeing a bigger division between conservative clergy and those who seek to modernize. I think most Orthodox do agree however that the introduction of the New Calendar is in-fact responsible, as it was completely unnecessary and it’s purpose was to bring us closer to the West (introduced along with Patriarch Metaxakis recognizing the sacraments of the Anglicans!).
@@OrthodoxEthosso should we be celebrating Christmas on December 25th then right? I am in oca. I want to be in rocor but best I can do Is oca currently until I can make a move happen. This is the first year I was thinking of celebrating on january 7th because of what I've seen some orthodox Christians say online? Is it better to just do it with the church? I am so new and stupid and afraid of doing the wrong thing and becoming a blasphemer.
The difference between the breaking communion between Russia and Constantinople is way different than the schism of the old calendarists. If a Russian layman receives communion at a Greek Monastery or vise-versa, he will not receive a penance or be excommunicated or corrected because they still see the other as Orthodox despite their Patriarchs cutting communion. In the case of Old calendarists if one their laymen receives communion at a church under Constantinople, he would be most certainly be disciplined
We should return back to the old Calander I don't see why they change it ?
They said for more in numbers in the church but I don't see more unite we stand divide will fall so come all Greeks and unite in the Lord..
.......if you are a new calendarist following the Pope and Vatican (and you are seeing how the progressive wing of the Greek Church has left the true Orthodox Apostolic movement , and you are thinking about returning to Orthodoxy) - all you need to do is watch this video to assure your conversion back to original Orthodox faith.
I was wondering what the correct calendar is. What I don’t like about adopting the Gregorian calendar is that it’s the same as the Catholics use. But I don’t know what to think about this subject.
Same brother I had problems with this too.
The Ecumenical Patriarchate is on the Revised Julian which isn’t the Gregorian. The RJC will not be in sync with the GC in 2800
The old calendar is the traditional calendar of the church, the old calendarists are another story.
@@iakov1906 correct, but on the other hand the old calendarists were chain-splitted in more schicms among themselves, the spirit of dividing is not from God.
this doesn't happen in other old calendar areas like russia, holy mountain or jerusalem. In Greece this split is the most intense.
The Old Calendar is correct, but the question is whether or not the calendar change is sufficient grounds for breaking communion with the rest of the Church. There are patriarchates on the Old Calendar that are in communion with patriarchates on the New Calendar, but what we call the "Old Calendarists" are those who saw the adoption of the New Calendar in some local churches as a justification for creating a parallel synod which has no communion with any of the ancient patriarchates.
Why change to the new one in the first place ? Why not keep the old
Ecumenism was the reason according to a 1920 encyclical “Unto the Churches of Christ everywhere”
The Old calendar how it can a new movement if the Old calendar was there from before Christ? The new western calendar is the new movement
Exactly. Fr. Peter is in denial.
I found that strange aswell.. it’s funny these new calendar people or defenders of it cannot seem to answer why they still celebrate the feast of feasts on the old calendar date but everything else on the new. Complete heresy
@@Death2CompromiseFr. Peter uses The Old Calendar, and stated that The New Calendar was a mistake that has to he repented of. Get your head out of the gutter
The correct calendar is whatever the Church says it is. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15) not individuals. Otherwise we have no foundation for anything.
@@jeremytuholski3557 Oh and what councils were these that anathematized the Patristic Calendar (old calendar)?
That’s the whole debate which one is the “church”
We know orthodoxy is the truth but do we follow the old calendar or new?
For 30 years I was apart of the new calendar church and didn’t question why we celebrate Easter on the old calendar date and everything else on the new. I have since gone back to the “true orthodox” ways thus participating in fasting and the feast days as it was originally established, being the old calendar way.
Father, could you please tell me about the energies of God? If I understood correctly from one of these videos, energies can be also operations of God, We say that energies are attributes or actions of God, but some of God's actions are temporal (for example act of creating the world), and does that mean that energies are temporal and therefore not eternal?
I can no longer access your web page. Even on Brave, it only allows the new copycat site orthodox ethos (without the article). Are you working on this, Father? Prayers! 🙏🏻
I would like to ask your opinion about the greek orthodox church new calendar that is invoking (mnimonevei) ukranian so called mitropolitan Epifanio as a canonical mitropolit. Since he is not even ordeined properly how come that church that is united with schismatic can stay in grace?
Im kind of new to this. By old calendarist? This means celebrating christmas on january 7th? So were not supposed to do that? We should be going off December 25th? Im so confused. Can anyone help? I just want to be doing the right thing and i go to an oca right now but i also want to be in a rocor parish i want to move to one. Help anyone?
In the Orthodox Church, some local churches use the New Calendar and some the Old. It is certainly very blessed to attend services on the Old Calendar which is followed by all Orthodox in Jerusalem, Russia, Serbia, Mt. Athos and elsewhere. “Old Calendarists” are not simply those who use the Old Calendar but are groups that broke communion with the rest of the Church over the calendar issue, refusing to have any communion with churches who use the New Calendar. So, it is blessed to use the Old Calendar but not blessed to consider other Orthodox to be heretics and in schism for following the New Calendar. Of course, it would be best if all Orthodox returned to the Old Calendar to help alleviate this confusion.
@@OrthodoxEthos thank you so much. Exactly the answer I needed.
Why does the Greek Church not return to the old calendar? That would solve the problem.
Because they are run by masons who have destroyed us within. I.e making a new calendar
Father what do you think of my church (Orthodox Church of Finland) which uses the new calendar even for pascha?
Why does it do that and how can it adopt at least the correct Paschalion and Pentecostarion?
Lord have mercy! They obviously fall into anathema of the First Ecumenical Council.
It’s heresy simple as that
The new calendar follows ecumenism completely after the synod of Kolymbari. It recognised all heretics and confessions and accepted as equal in orthodoxy. Thus has lost grace of God.
It does? Do you have any videos or sources or links on this?
-inquirer
we art for the original calender
to but address the statement we read bout the wholely spirit not being in the changed calendar orthodox church if he is not in the aforementioned then whose voice was that which i heard at which hour i wast being baptised as an infant in the once gain aforementioned which said quote look there art the parentnesses your happy and ioyful quote
Fr Heers,
The new calendar was made by Pope Gregory Xlll, which is Heretical. Jesus is the only one who split time in half. If it is prohibited to change, add or remove, then why is the Orthodox church following the pope rather than the Holy fathers?
The new calendar is heretic. It is time for Orthodox Christians to go back to the original Calendar.
I know right? Only calendars made by pagans are sanctified!
A lof of the Holy Fathers on Athos were Zealots. Some were stricter than others. Father Joseph bounced back and fourth. But i know this, Metropolitan Chrysostomos was a man of God. Also the Archbishop who buried St Irenymous is still alive right now if i remember correctly.
Metropolitan Akakios of Diavleia reposed in 2019, but it was recent in comparison to the funeral he performed for St. Ieronymos. He was 93 when he reposed.
So many Holy that Chrysostomos couldnt find a single worthy candidate to ordain a bishop and left y'all with no bishops 😂😂
@@Calciu_83 I don't know what you mean? We have Bishops. My MP is my spiritual father.
@@alexanderbrown5900 Thank you brother for telling me. Lord, have mercy.
@@WhiterunMenace of course you don't know your own history... many such cases.
So what is the point of this video!?
. I would suppose introducing an Encyclical that purposely and intentionally defies and eradicates the authority of the 8 ecumenical councils, guided by the holy spirit , where they now ignore the canons, dogmas, and commandments constitutions of Christ which guide the boundaries of the church and salvation in the one holy apostolic church and where overturning and negating these councils guiding by holy spirit, brings upon you an unforgivable anathema [when blaspheming the holy spirit as the encyclical defined and you then reinforce these errors with innovations of theology , foreign to the church for 100 years that introduced baptismal theology and lifted them anathemas and cemented and reinforced the encyclical of 1920 that defined christ is no the one way to salvation..and which no longer acknowledge the concept of heresy ,no longer exists and where this is part of a known mason instrument to bring about the antichrist.. and to reduce the world to submissive to one world--- i guess if you allowed me to choose . i think I would prefer a church with the exclusivity issue that is sinfully separated .from new calendar church...separated, I guess, is an error for the standard of external unity that you worship . oh wait... but apparently this type of separation is permitted by St Basils Canon.. in order to avoid it... . but you are right ...you should remain in the new calendar for the sake of avoiding this grevious sin of external division which is the worse sin for this world. and would lead to social ostracisation and uncomfortable moments ..cause your god is of this world. that you seek to appease and be rewarded with.
Why is everyone making such a big deal out of a calendar? Calendar is not dogma.
Because when we fast for our saints Panayia etc we are doing it on different dates it’s a major problem. For 2 thousand years we followed the old calendar way the last hundred years it’s been altered. It’s time to go back to the original ways.
@@Bennythejet93 calendar is not dogma.
@@Bennythejet93 isnt even the first time a calendar change has happened
I feel bad for the Eastern Orthodox and their complex problems.
Don't feel bad, we've had 2000 years of complex problems, that's how life is, isn't it?
Read what the ancient Fathers said about the problems in the Church. You know, there is a devil who fights the Church. That's his main hotspot. He hates the sanctification which comes from there because it burns him.
Why is the Orthodox Church blessing a gay couples baby?
Evanggelos Bousis and Peter Dundas, both of Greek descent, became the first gay couple to hold a Greek Orthodox Baptism for their children in Greece on Saturday.
The couple’s children, Alexios and Eleni, were baptized by his Eminence Archbishop Elpidophoros of America at the Panagia Faneromeni Church in the southern Athenian suburb of Vouliagmeni.
And you think he speaks for the Orthodox Church?
He has spoken so many theological errors. It’s hard to keep track. Those who commit such grave errors, they follow the long line of heretics before them not the holy fathers.
@@OrthodoxEthos Yes he does speak for the Orthodox Church obviously, since he did not get the boot. What is a so called " Holy Father" should they not all be ? I am totally shocked and confused what is next one of your Fathers will get a sex change and that is A OK and "he does not represent the church" so ignore it? I have been seriously thinking of the Orthodox " bound to "traditional" first church from 30AD. Who knows maybe Paul and Peter adopted a baby and it is the Old traditional ways. Also what is this about the long line of Heretics ? This is pretty disturbing to hear
Perfect example on how the Orthodox Church has been under attack within for 1,000s of years, and its getting worse.
Would we hold innocent babies responsible for their parent's sins? At least they were baptised sadly though by Elpidophoros.
@@maralfniqle5092actually you are not right. You can baptized baby in the orthodox church but you have to have godfather together with parents who are responsible for orthodox upbringing of that baby. In this sodoma parenthood that's not the case. Eventually they can get baptised when they grow up and decide by themselves