It all depends on the climate you live. I have on one of my cars all season tires and they are scary at winter and even on a rainy summer day :/ on the other car I use daily I have Dunlop Blu Response and for the Winter Nokian WR ones but on really snowy days I'm not that happy with them. Had before refurbished winter tires and they where awesome on roads full of snow and ice but crap on wet roads and where noisy as hell :D
+stupa55 Guess you have never bought Conti DWS all season, they might as well be winters they are amazing. Also when you live in area like I do were its snow and 20F one day and then 70f the next, winter tires are not realistic.
+stupa55 I got deep mudding treads. When I have them brand new, I can't even drift around corners on dirt roads, and I love making my jeep slide on dirt roads. :-)
This video is a good demonstration of the benefits of newer tires being up front, however out of personal experience I'm still a firm believer of newer tires in the rear. I drive super defensively so stopping distance and my ability to suddenly turn aren't as big an issue for me as oversteer is. Yes I definitely feel the increased understeer and stopping distance in non-dry conditions, but with the way I drive, I give myself enough room to account for it. However when I ran more worn tires in the rear, I had multiple instances of oversteer - some of which almost led to accidents. Constantly worrying about oversteering does not justify the benefits of the better traction up front with the way I drive, in my opinion. Since I do a lot of highway and open road driving, I personally value rear stability more. Imagine making a 300 mile road trip with the back constantly kicking out and you might understand my point a little more. I don't mean to discredit your video at all, just felt like sharing my experience about the subject a little.
If you put the newest up front, by the time they wear down, the back tires will be totally junk..and you will have to buy four brand new tires, next time around.. I say to never have junk tires..good should be up front, and best in the back.. a lot of front wheel cars don't have much down force in the back..and I have broke the rear end lose before and it definitely wasn't cool..
What I always say is whats easier to control, under steer or oversteer? It’s always oversteer in a fwd car because when you understeer and the wheels that do most of the braking and all the power delivery and all of the steering lock and slide straight no matter which way you turn, you have no control. When the back end slides, you can pull yourself back straight and control the slide. This is part of why I always drive RWD cars, my current vehicle is rear bias AWD so if I start to slide I can give it power and regain control of the slide.
I grew up and learned how to drive in northern Wisconsin. I completely agree with everything you did and said in this video. If I only get 2 tires, they ALWAYS go on the front. I've worked as a technician for the big tire places, Good Year, Firestone, NTB. They all say put the new ones on the back then try to scare customers into buying 2 more for safety reasons. I actually had a "big wig" from Ohio Firestone office ask me one time if I ever had a blow out on the rear of a car. Yes, I have. In my full size truck doing 70MPH down the freeway. I pulled over and changed it and was on my way. If that would have been on the front I would have lost control and most likely crashed or worse. He had nothing to say. Sorry for the rambling. My experience tells me better tires always go on the front. Great video Eric!
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This was very interesting. Just last week I took my car in to have the tires rotated. The rear tires were better and the front tires were wearing unevenly. Back in a former lifetime (1964-1983) I worked at my father's service station. At that time, the rule was, "put the better tires on the front". My tire guy would NOT rotate my tires because, "the better tires must be on the rear." I told him that I was rotating tires before he was born and that was not the rule back then. Could he tell me when the "rule" changed and why? He threw up his hands and said, "you obviously know more about this than I do!" and stalked off in a huff. I have been a customer of that tire store for better than 20 years ... and I am within a millimeter of taking my business elsewhere when I buy new tires in a month or so. BUT, I went home and googled the issue. As others have noted here, the published advice of tire manufacturers does seem to have changed over the years and the "better on back" seems to be the rule today. And the reasoning is about control when hydroplaning. Better to be unable to turn (front skid) than to have the rear swap ends suddenly (rear skid). Makes sense in theory - though your empirical experience seems different. But what has changed since the "old days"? Well, back then, our concern was about control after a blow out. Would you rather blow a front tire or a rear tire? Intuitively, I think we all believed that a car would be more controllable with a blow out on the rear than with one on the front. Remember, for example "Unsafe At Any Speed" - a book which gutted the poor little Corvair because of its tendency to have blow outs when turning ... and then flipping the car when the rim would dig into the asphalt. Maybe tires are better now and blow outs are not the concern that they were then? Anyway, it would seem that the issue is debatable (except to my tire guy). Thanks for the vid Eric. I always enjoy and learn from your videos!
All I can say is, on my old FWD car, I installed new tires on the front, and put the "good" older tires to the rear. I was driving down a 4 lane road in the rain, with a slight curve to the right. A road I had driven in the same conditions for many years. The next thing I know, the rear of my car lifted (hydroplaned) and I went spinning into oncoming traffic. Learned my lesson. Either get 4 new tires, or put the 2 new on the rear. Snow is one thing, but rain is a different animal.
+Kevin Vance And if you had new tires in the rear, than you would just understeer head on in the oncoming traffic. The problem is that you didn't choose the right speed for the turn and were not prepared that there could be hydroplaning which is plausible in wet conditions and weren't fast enough to countersteer.
Whatever dude. I was there, you weren't. The cause of the hydroplaning was the fact that the rear tires had less usable tread than the front. it's simple cause and effect. You assume too much.
+Kevin Vance You were driving too fast. There's an underpass with a fairly sharp left turn underneath on my commute. With new tires on a dry road, I'll take the turn at no more than say, 40mph, and then I feel it in the tires. If it's wet, I slow waaaay down. I went through at 15mph once, because my tires were nearly bald. Watched in the rear-view mirror as the car behind me swerved left, cut back to the right, went sideways, and went head-on into the wall on the right. I don't care if he had new tires, old tires, FWD, RWD, or AWD...he was going too fast for the turn. Any time it rains, there's a decent chance there's going to be a car sitting on the side of the road that smacked into the wall.
A lot would depend on how worn the older tires are. If they are close to the end of their lives, then probably put the new ones on the rear. But if they have a lot of meat left, then put the new ones on the front. The front tires wear faster because most of the braking is done up front because of the weight shift forward. If you're lucky, the new front and old rear will then need to be replaced about the same time, and you can get all four tires next time. I never had a problem doing this, and if I did in the snow, I'd just drive slower in slippery conditions. It's all about the braking. SLOW DOWN!
I used to go by the rule of thumb that you put the newer rubber on the drive wheels. I think it depends on the car and the situation but I'm now of the opinion that front wheels are generally the better choice. Reason being that steering and braking are heavily front biased no matter the drive train configuration.
All these people who don't drive their cars in snowy and icy conditions many many months a year telling to put the better tires in the front :D ...... And no-one believes us nordic people who do. Even at our driving license test its mandatory to go to a winter driving course on slippery special test facility to see how the car reacts in different situations and they say to _always_ put the better tires at the rear. So says all the insurance companies and experts on this matter. The better steering input drops dramatically when you go above the snail speed of 20-30mph that eric just did here and it induces snap oversteer which can't be corrected. You just become the passenger.
Yes but if you live in a snowy climate and don't have winters you're either a danger or you're the reason for traffic on snowy mornings. (other than low visablility) Either way please equip your vehicle properly or work from home.
Yep. But if its dry summer, cold and wet or slippery conditions the better tires go always at the rear. And the tires should be rotated front to back and back to front occasionally to get even wear.
I can agree with that on most conditions. However the fronts almost always wear faster so if they are close enough and you've kept up on your rotations than the fronts will likely be the better tires until they wear down to match the rear again.
I've wondered this same thing for a long time and I really appreciate the testing you did Eric. I am of the opinion that tire and insurance companies tell you to put the best tires on the back for liability reasons. You are more likely to lose traction in the rear with bald tires in the rear than with tires deep in tread and losing traction in the rear is more dangerous than losing it in the front...or at leased that is how the argument goes. I agree with you Eric, the best solution is just buy 4 new tires.
Eric, great demonstration. When money was short and I needed snows, I always opted to put them on the front while my half worn all-seasons stayed the back. I took this setup to an extreme (and stupid) test one morning when 2 inches of fresh powder was on a back-country paved road (upstate ny). Took the 60 degree turn quick on purpose and before I knew it I fishtailed, landed in a ditch and knocked out a wooden fence. That entire winter season aside from my dummy test with good tires on front were nothing short of being safe when sudden stops were necessary or going through tricky, day-to-day curvy road situations. The key to good handling is ultimately knowing your vehicle and knowing how to drive. Nonetheless, the tire companies will say "new to back, worn to front". They're strict to the fact that most vehicles have the most weight in the front and that weight will aid in more grip for less treaded tires. The understeer can be corrected easier because the majority of drivers don't know shit about driving safely or how their vehicle handles in different situations. So yeah, for drivers who know what they're doing, new tires on the front. If you don't know how to drive under a variety of diverse conditions, including rain, 4 new tires. In any snowbelt...4 snow tires is the ultimate.
Thank you Eric for your great videos. They are awesome. You are one of the best mechanics that I always watch besides Ratchets & Wrenches and Rex Fix. All of you are excellent and appreciated. Thank you for your teaching and demonstration.
wheres if you had the good tyres in the rear no over ster , and any over sterar you will get control because the rear will have new tyres ,,, yet you think you got control apart from the over stear ??? what control ???
You will recover from understeer with the worn tires on the front FAR better than from oversteer with worn tires on the rear!! Worn on the front, you have less steering control, worn on the rear, you have NO steering control when that rear end breaks loose and spins you around!
When I was a rubber jockey 10+ years ago, the rule was FWD: Better tires on the front. RWD: Better tires on the rear. Fast forward to 2009, I worked for KAL TIRE. They insisted FWD gets better tires on the rear, RWD: better tires on front. I got into several heated arguments with the completely untrained staff at that store and they insisted I was wrong. Let me just reiterate that I have proper vocational/mechanical training, and most of the drones at that KAL TIRE store had gone through the store-level training. I quit after a week. I refused to make peoples vehicles unsafe, but I also couldn't agree with their business practices of 450% markup. I simply could not look people that I'd known all my life and grown up with that tires for their 1987 Ford pickup were going to cost $2200!! If it's insurance companies forcing this change, someone needs to force the insurance companies. They are completely backwards and your test proves this!
As a person who does a lot of winter mileage and that tried both, it's always better to have the best tires in the front. That way you have a better change of avoiding something if ever the worst should happen. P.S. We have to have winter tires here in winter and you can get a big ticket if you don't.
I agree, going head on with an oncoming car due to not being able to change directions is not fun. I speak from experience. New tires on the from thats a good idea :)
Honda putting the horn in front of the signals and windshield controls as buttons is by far my favorite feature and I'm always stoked to see it in other models lol
I work at a tire and auto repair shop. I know that tire manufacturers and car manufacturers have done extensive testing, multiple times, over years and years and I can assure you that the new tires should always go in the rear. In the front, you have the weight of everything under the hood to keep the front end stable, as well as the steering wheel, so you can steer yourself out of a pickle (if you know how to drive in the winter, which you should, if you live in a wintery area). In the back, there’s nothing, so the best tires should go there, so as to minimize your chances of fish-tailing or spinning out.
Hey Eric, i'm a first year automotive engineer(applied science) in the Netherlands. In class we had a discussion about this. My teacher said that the reason why you would want to have your good tires on the back is because understeer is easier to compensate for than oversteer. So in most cases it is safer to have understeer. And since your new tires are on the back, you will be far more likely to experience understeer. Because the bad front tyres will loose traction before your new rear tyres. I hope this makes sense to you. Keep up making these videos!
This assumes that all drivers are idiots behind steering wheel and speeding. I never had that problem as when it is ice or snow outside on the road, I drive slowly. Now when crawling and driving carefully uphill, stopping or just driving along the road it is much better to have new tires on the front. I had oversteer on 2 occasions on my other cars where I had all 4 equally new/old tires and ESP corrects it without any problem if you are driving with respect to weather conditions on the road. (slowly)
@@mouselionpcIt is a lot safer to assume that all drivers are idiots. Maybe you are a good driver but most people are not and you can't assume everyone has electric safety systems like esp, tc, abs and its not safe to solely rely on said systems. There is no real downside to mounting new tyres in the back only upsides.
@@silencer9112 I think you missed the point of my previous comment, ignore the ESP/TC/ABS part, that was just a side story. To me there was a lot of downsides (driving slowly) with my old tires on the front on my FWD car. Never again! Could not stop, steer or even go uphill, while my brand new tires were being pulled at the back axle doing nothing as in FWD car, front wheels do 90% of the work.
@@mouselionpc maybe I did, but my point is that there are a million and one situations that don't apply to your previous experiences and that in the end safety is the most important. Losing traction in rear is one of the most dangerous things that can happen to a less experienced driver.
Over-steer is easier to control than under-steer. I'd really whip my tail out to hit a car than to slide head on with the wheel fully turned. Although I follow far enough away now that that wouldn't be a problem, unlike most drivers.
+SlipknotMaggot0526 agree absolutely. when you understeer you either have to wait and hope for the best until it grips, or yank the handbrake. with rwd you can also do a clutch dump (or just go full throttle), which will in many cases transfer your understeer into a nice drift, which will increase curvature of your trajectory, as well as slow you down. but you also have the other two options. rwd gives more flexibility. However, a rubbish driver can crash any car, so it's not so much a matter of which wheels of your car are driven, but how ignorant you are.
+zloychechen5150 Agree I absolutely fear under steer. I do not know why car makers consider it a safety feature. All I can think of is being hit by oncoming traffic and being powerless to do anything. Not sure if pulling the hand brake is going to help much. I try to keep to rear drive cars.
Im living in the Nordic country. 4-5 months snow. Mostly we put better tyres on the back. Beacause in high speed rear end gonna slip mostly not front. And I think nobody dont wanna crach in high speed situation.
+No No. Not at all. If you're car is FWD, better tires on the front will only make you accelerate better. Not corner or brake more safely. Better tires on the back stabilize the car under braking and cornering, meaning you've got a smaller chance of spinning out.
+Aaron Benninger I allways put the new tires on the front, no matter the drivetrain. I can allways adjust the speed if cornering is a problem. If the car spins under breaking, so what? I see it like this, stopping distance is what matter. I would rather spinn out twice a week than run down one pedestrian during my lifetime. That being said, I haven't spun out in about 10 years now. Above the arctic circle, we allso have long winters.
I've turned a wrench for the last 25 years. Always did the install of the new tires on the drive axles. I have a severe dislike for shops that do extreme hard sells to customers that they MUST always get 4 new tires, otherwise they WILL be unsafe. It's called common sense while driving on snow and ice. (and yes, water covered roads as well) I do strongly disagree with the min tread thickness! Ya hit those wear bars? That's like running a slick and the tires are useless on water/snow. Again, this boils down to driver training and common sense. I can park my truck on a dime (RWD, newer tires on the back). I can also maintain excellent control and do not rely on ABS. To many people get dependent on all the gadgets and they forget how to drive on bad roads. Be safe and don't drive like an a&&. That will get you to your destination safer.
havent been in a shop but 3 years and i tell managment and my svice advisors unless the tires are cupped up bad if they have good tread i cant reasonably sell more than 2 tires.
The idea behind putting new tyres on the rear of a FRONT drive car is for cornering stability in wet conditions, it is better to understeer (back off throttle to regain control) than to oversteer (fall off road backwards or sidewards) - you can test this by having car with old on rear and new on front, finding a large wet area where you can drive in circles until grip is lost - if you suddenly back off then chances are the rear will swing out as the weight transfer goes to the front wheels. If you then do this test with the tyres fitted the other way around, the front will simply wash wide and you can wait until speed reduces a little and the front pulls back in. However, on snow, grip is so low in the first place that this instability is a non issue (mostly) and of course four new tyres is the best option, preferably studded for winter conditions.For a REAR drive car, of course the reverse is true, for the same reasons :-)
New tires on the front: Better traction, braking and turning. New tires on the rear: Better cornering stability at speed and less likely to spin out. I actually have tested this myself and when i put the newer tires on the front the car was much esasier to drive in the city @ low speed. But then when driving @ higher speed i almost lost control when i took an easy turn in about 80km/h and the rear kicked out. This was with an front wheel driven Audi 100.
@@ericthecarguy Like you, I prefer more traction, steering, and braking control at the front. Once i made the mistake of having the new tires at the back, and i comfortably slid into the car in front. I have never spun out in any car with new tires at the front. I am no professional, but you want more control at the front, where you actually steer.
Great idea for a video! Looks like the comments are all over the place, but you demonstrated exactly why YOU like newer tires on front. I agree, and on my 4x4 at low speeds, this has been the best mix for me too... At higher speeds? The rear probably would slide out with a lesser tread depth. Surely everyone knows speed and momentum is the key to driving in bad winter conditions and adjusts properly
Personally, I've had $300 all seasons outperform $500 snow tires. They also outperformed a cheap set of studded snow tires. The same set also did better than any summer tire I've tried.
the "gain" you'd get from new tires isn't something anyone ought to consider. instead safe driving practices in the snow is far more important. NEVER slam on your brakes AND do your best to stay a good distance from the vehicle in front. it is not a race.
You are 100% correct with the new tires upfront fro FWD cars. New Tires in Rear for RRD cars. Nothing like having a second set of SNOW tires and wheels for the winter. Should add that to your test. Would blow everyone away.............Thanks for posting. Just seeing your channel for the first time. We have loads in common.............
I always recommend on the front on a FWD car. We have alot of accidents here in Wisconsin in the winter. There are cases where the rear kicks out on people mostly when driving too fast for conditions. But almost all are related to steering loss and breaking issues (lots of deer accidents). Even when it is the rear that lets loose it is much easier to correct when that happens when you can steer out of it and use the gas to straighten you out.
In my experience front is always best, however when I put 2 tires on my Mustang before winter they told me it was better to put them on the rear. I still made them put them on the front because When I turn the steering wheel I want the car to respond as much as possible. This may very well have saved a guys life because I was topping a hill at night and blinded by an oncoming car when all the sudden he appeared in front of me walking in my lane. I tried the brakes, but just slid. I then released the brakes and turned into the oncoming car's lane missing him. The oncoming car went off the road to avoid me, and we all got away with no injuries. For those that are going to say "you should have turned the other way", the curb would likely have guided my car straight into the pedestrian. Anyway, the new tires on the front meant that the car responded and turned when I turned the wheel. If I had the tires on the rear, I think I would have slid trying to turn and hit him. My car now has all 4 tires. I just could not do them all at once.
Well, and I know this is two years old, but the reason you skidded so bad in the first place is because you braked when they started to skid. That's what you do when your fronts start to skid, but with the rear, you need to accelerate, which is less than intuitive for most people.
I've driven in snowy and icy roads for twenty years so I think I'm qualified to mutter a couple of words. There are two separate things happening there. First, I absolutely prefer better tyres in the rear: understeering is quite a forgiving condition on a slippery surface whereas the tendency to oversteer can quickly cause a spin when the grip goes away in a bend. Snow drifting is fun and while it's also controllable (by steering counterwise to the direction you're drifting) you do not want yourself or other cars drifting on (or, in reality, spinning into) the opposite lane in wintery roads. Understeering gives at least some limited steering control, especially much more so with anti-lock braking. You will still lose much of control but you'll lose it gradually with no surprises, and with some margin of maneuverability left to correct the situation. Front wheel drive is generally more predictable than rear wheel drive for winter driving, and it gives better traction in the winter also because the engine weight sits on top of the driving wheels. The second thing, however, is that once you find yourself in a situation where you experience either understeering or oversteering you've actually already driven too fast and a lot of bets are already off at that time. Yes, regardless of your experience the road surface can have very slippery spots or surprise black ice, and you can not always know that. But you can always anticipate, and when you see other cars or other obstacles in front of you or you're not sure how slippery it is, you can always anticipate more. When the conditions are slippery you don't want to slide anywhere or otherwise lose grip. At all. That's simply imperative, and everything else follows from that. Anecdotally, driving through the winter I practically never in a typical winter driving conditions (snow and/or ice) lose control but that's only because I know to drive slow in the winter. If I lose grip momentarily that is already a big warning sign for me: that shouldn't have happened. For example, when Eric was trying to zigzag between the cones with the bad tyres in front he was going way too fast considering the available grip. Electronic stability control systems will only push those limits further while shrinking the margin more narrow. That is, you'll be able to drive faster and safer within the limits the system can handle but when you do lose the grip it's gone for good. Ditto for 4WD. On the other hand if you drive slowly, you'll develop a sense of how much traction you're losing and keeping at any given time. You can then factor that in when making choices about your speed, estimating braking distance, etc. Some word of advice from the North, besides driving slow: 1) prefer winter tyres in wintery regions and drive slow; if you don't use winter tyres, drive even slower; if uncertain of your grip in any case, drive slow enough that you will again find grip. Always know where the grip is. 2) know your enemy: if uncertain choose an empty patch of the road to test how slippery the road or surface is. For example while driving, brake first gently and then with more force until the ABS engages briefly; do the same with acceleration: hit the pedal a bit more than necessary until the tractive wheels lose grip momentarily or ESC disengages power; finally, test lateral grip by steering gently, slightly towards left and right until you establish to yourself some sort of boundary where you might be close to momentarily losing grip on that particular road in those particular conditions. Then stay away from those bounds by driving slow enough that you don't need to swerve, brake, or accelerate too quickly. Like, when approaching an intersection with red lights, you can quickly test the road surface by braking momentarily in advance so that you know if the road is more slippery than you thought, allowing yourself to brake safely before you would actually end up sliding and finally rear-ending another car. 3) find a place to practice what to do in case you do lose the grip. An empty parking lot is good but ideally you would find an area with enough room to hit 60mph/100kph and then safely test braking, turning, and dodging cones or other obstacles. It's good to force your vehicle to understeer and oversteer and find your way with both. I don't know if you have test tracks for practicing driving on slippery conditions and experiencing the winter roadholding in the USA but in Scandinavia spending a day on such a track is a mandatory part of driver's license training.
Note: AWD systems (Subaru symmetrical, Audi quattro, etc) it is fairly crucial to replace all four tires at once. If one cannot or otherwise have to run "outsized" or spare, put the "bad" tires in the rear and pull the fuse/relay to put it into FWD until you can remedy the tire situation.
cool, I found this interesting to watch because last time I put new tyres on a car I asked for them to go on the front and the shop disagreed with me and said no always have the better ones on the rear. I understand that in a situation where your car is spinning out of control good tyres on the rear would probably benefit, but I think it was pretty evident in your video that in an everyday driving situation its probably more advisable to have good traction up front :) cool video
If you live in areas that get snow/black ice, you're probably better off buying a dedicated set of tyres just for winter use. Don't need to have fancy mag rims - just plain, practical and designed for that specific weather.
I was always taught to always put the new tires on the drive wheels the drive wheels being on the front or on the back doesn't make a difference I always put the brand new tires on the drive wheels
what about rear wheel drive cars then? I've always believed in putting the best tires on the driven wheels. Newest on the front for front wheel drive and obvious newest on the back for rear wheel drive. With carful throttle control I'd prefer to have drive grip than bang on precise steering.
New tires ALWAYS go to the back. It is easier to control understeer compared to oversteer. The last thing you want is your car fishtailing on the highway in the rain.
2005 Saturn Ion Redline, manual, no traction control, brand new snow tires on the front, have not had a problem with spinning out, loss of control, or crappy braking. I currently in the northern peninsula of Michigan where snow is a massive problem, if I want to go anywhere and up the hills around here I needed them on the front. I take corners slower, and I don't drive like an idiot all of the time unless I want the back end to come out on purpose. I am all for putting the snow tires on the front.
From my own experience, I've definitely found that the new tires should be put on the drive tires. Just this past snowstorm (Jonas) in Tennessee, in my Chevrolet Trailblazer I went up with the new tires on the front of the SUV when it is a rear wheel drive vehicle. Literally every time I shut off the car when I got back in I would have to spend at least 15 minutes getting unstuck in the 3-4 inches of snow. Once I rotated the tires to have the new tires on the back where the wheels were powered, I never once got stuck or lost traction again, even with all season tires and no winter tires. Hope it helps you guys
Putting the good tires on the front is very dangerous, especially on old cars without any kind of computerized traction control. Shure, the braking distance will be shorter, but as the rear wheels are guiding the care, you will completely lose control of your car and spin like a bottle. Maybe on new cars, the stabilization control can compensate a lot, but once it starts spinning, you're lost. That are my experiences made on parking lots and driving on the road.
fun fact: In the Swedish driving license test courses, people are taught to put the best tires in the back, because understeer is safer than oversteer... This is regardless of FWD or RWD.
Thank you Eric for this video! New tires should ALWAYS go on the front in vehicles weighted more than 50/50 front/rear for experienced drivers. For novice drivers this may not be true since oversteer/understeer becomes an issue, but for the vast majority of people stopping distance and acceleration is far more important in real world scenarios. If it were my teenager I would put new tires on the rear but never for me. The best scenario isn't always the lowest common denominator as it is legally.
+Mawerick77 where do you live anyway? I've been driving on rural icy snowy northern Minnesota since I was 10, and also a master mechanic. Anyway, I see so many broken axles/tie rods/wheels/front ends this time of year from people not being able to control which direction the vehicle is going. New tires on the front, always.
Marcus Taintor That would be Finland. You know, the home of world rally champions and grannies who drift their cars during winter? :D I do see your point. However, my point is what happens when you hit a puddle on a highway @ 60mph. If you have worse tires in the front, they will aquaplane. Aquaplaning at the front is not really a problem though, since all you need to do is to keep the wheels straight and gradually slow down until you regain control. Aquaplaning at the rear on the other hand... you'll get snap oversteer and are more than likely to go spinning wildly across the median or in the ditch. Now, I know which one of those two options is safer. So do car manufacturers, tyre manufacturers, insurance companies and pro racing drivers. This is why 99% of cars are set up to have mild understeer from the factory.
nice, I would love to visit finland some day. The only reason the rear end would come around is if the person was braking and turning at the same time. Although I feel like braking would better since the front wheels do most of the braking. I agree it does increase the possibility of the rear end coming around in certain situations. The other problem I see a lot of in my poor neck of the woods is people driving till the wires are showing. I would much rather have my rear tire blow out than the front, much less likely to loose control and roll.
+knurlgnar24 me personally, my crown vic is almost 50/50, and i [prefer my new tires on the front. i can then use those front tires to control the car as it loses traction. if im going to hit something, i will steer the car head on. but if i just lose the rear, i very carefully drift it with a little throttle to scrub speed to help my situation.
Everyone will say that new tires should go on the back to avoid dangerous over-steer, but If I know I have less than great tires on the back, Ill know to be extra careful taking corners, especially in the wet, and avoid swerving to avoid any road hazards that may suddenly pop up. I would rather know the good tires are on the front for stopping purposes. At the end of the day, you are more likely to need to stop quickly in a straight line due to a road hazard, and if you are going fast enough in bad conditions to cause dangerous over-steer during a sudden emergency, frankly, that's your own fault. Slow down as conditions change, and know you can stop better in a straight line with the extra time you afford yourself by driving more slowly.
Your conclusion may hold when driving on snow, but driving on shallow standing water is a much more common condition, and putting the newer tires on the back reduces the tendency of the rear end to start skidding sideways in a hydroplaning situation.
SAFETY is always best with 4 new tires and will deteriorate with wear. Minimum tire wear is a federal standard, not a measure of tires ability to keep you safe. Also driving conditions will vary greatly. Snow, Rain, Sand, Gravel, Mud, etc.... The Michelin video I watched prior was on a wet road and they pretty much admitted that worn tires on front will make the driver more aware of road conditions as they will loose traction first, so they will slow down to a safe speed. Safety first. You pretty much showed in your video exactly why you put good tires on the rear, ironically, as the reason was to make the driver slow down. If you want to go faster, you need better tires, of course road conditions will vary... and danger increases with speed.
+zx8401ztv I think it depends. It's probably better to put them on the rear for driving at speed in wet conditions, but in these conditions, I'd say put them on the front. I'd also say 4 new tires are always better than 2. Thanks for your input.
+EricTheCarGuy Yes i was only judging them by your test conditions, and 4 spanking new tyres for the particular weather conditions would have been the best.
Great video for traction in the snow. I also think I will remain a "newest on rear" enthusiast. I have a 2000 xj (Cherokee ) and a 2009 HHR. The jeep is an easy decision, having most traction at the rear drive wheels. Even so, I experience severe fishtailing in winter climates when in 2 wheel high, but when in 4 wheel high I could climb a tree. We have only had the HHR for a month now, new tires all around, and it does nicely. Impressive given a concrete driveway that rivals most ski resorts. I can, however comment on a Cavalier a friend had.....HAD. Newest on front scenario. Hit water, hydroplaned, and the rear went out around. Ended up 720 into the opposite side of the highway through the grass median and hit broadside into the opposite guard rail. I know alot of people who sandbag the trunks of their fwd cars to prevent this in the snow. For me, the concern is the rain that happens year round without warning. placing newest at front provides a false sense of security through improved handeling. if I need to go somewhere in s! $@ tastic western pa weather, I take my jeep. But for cars, I think weight and traction for all weather events is key.
Great Video! I was a tow truck driver for 10 years i have seen so many crashes my thought is if you can't afford good tires all around on your vehicle than just don't drive! your putting yourself and others on the road at risk of injury or even death! and another thing before i would flip a vehicle back over the police would always check the tire depth you could be charged even if you didn't cause the accident if you have bald tires!
I had a FWD minivan where I had two studded tires I'd put on the front in winter. I'd rather go around a corner sideways (very predictable and manageable oversteer) than not be able to leave my driveway at all for lack of any traction. That said, in the snow I'd still rather have my 4WD Jeep with old OR new tires than that minivan. :)
J right? What’s your point? People don’t just slide out going round a bend on a motorway. Unless it’s WET and high speeds. In which case you should probably slow down or get some tyres that aren’t so shit.
patw52pb1 Can't dispute your experience, but GPS is used as a official measurement tool as well as radar. Both more accurate than the speedo built in to cars which is depended on the size of the tires. Which can change due to temp and PSI.
now perform this test with new and old tires on the Fairmont for tests on rear wheel drive. With the exceptions of ABS, traction control etc. Keep up the great work!
*Winter specific tires* are really worth the cost, if your serious about wet weather or snow conditions. I can not imagine going back to "all season" tires for winter conditions. Never drove a vehicle with all wheel drive with winter tires but I bet it would be a blast to haul off the line with them. I do have a Front WD econo car and a RWD pickup truck with the same tires type (General Altimax Artics) mounted on all four wheels. Traction is never an issue with them
This is bad advice. You're always supposed to put tires that have better traction in the rear. Doesnt matter if its FWD, or RWD. When you have less traction in the front, your accelerating (if fwd), and braking are immediately effected. The second you start driving, and braking you will know your cars limits. But when your rear tires have low traction, you wont know it until you take a turn too hard, and spin around. And that will always come as a surprise. You put fresh tires upfront, you think you have grip, you drive way too confident, then you make that right turn too fast, your rear end goes out, and you spin around, or worse, hit a parked car. This is why tires with better grip go in the rear.
Never heard of this. We always put the new tires on the front down here. Would you rather have a blow out of the wheels that steer or the ones that simply need to go in a straight line?
When replacing tires in pairs, the new pair should always go on the rear. It does not matter if vehicle is FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD. The deciding factor is a normal drivers reaction to a skid. With the older tires on the front, there is less traction in front, so the front end skids out. The solution to a front end skid is to brake, that is what happens as a normal reaction. With the older tires on the back, there is less traction in rear. so the rear skids out. The solution to rear skid is to apply more power, but the normal reaction to brake, that makes the skid worse.
Means more than you think. Techs deserve respect. Especially these days when they have to an expert in so many areas. Many have astounding knowledge and skill. I just build rally cars. Painting the cage on one now.
I wonder what gear Eric is using at 6:00 to set off? In those conditions in my own five gear car, I use third gear and plenty of revs, with the clutch dipped low. If I use a lower gear I just get wheel spin and not go anywhere. My car is a Peugeot 306 2.0 XSi
If you have to "countersteer" you are allready driving too fast or too close to someone. And if you countersteer like you think you have the ability to, the end of the car will not follow your "smart" plan but go straight forward. good luck, have fun.
Look at you getting all scientific! That was a great video and test. The best thing I have ever done to a car was getting a new set (4) of Yokohama tires... Really, the difference in handling, stability, quietness and even fuel consumption (minor) is amazing.
I am not sure which tire manufacturer that was, but they recommended that you put the new tires on the back for the following reason. Imagine you are driving on a super wet road and you have to brake really hard. If one pair of tires loses traction you want it to be the front one before the rear one for stability reasons or otherwise the back will come flying to the front. In your scenario it seems that putting the better tires on the front yields a better result, but keep in mind that if you are going to avoid a collision by stearing all of a sudden you are most likely going to brake as well, especially if you are close to hitting a pedestrian. In that case it is very likely that the rear end would not follow the front end's turn and just keep going straight and then after spinning around hit the person/car in front of you. You might say that in both cases it looks bad, if otherwise the car would crash straight into whatever is ahead of you, but I think that tires work better at braking if you are going straight than sideways which would be the case if the car kicks out, especially if you have ABS on all wheels. I hope that makes sense..
+lolatmyage I agree with you. What I meant was that it is better if the tires go straight while you try to brake, since ABS will maximize traction. So if the vehicle would turn sideways, there is no way the ABS could help. But if you have better traction on the rear and the car is kept straight, the ABS can assist at maximizing traction. Sliding sideways is just like locking the tires which would happen much more likely if you have good traction at the front but poor traction at the rear tires.
pcfreak1992 But ABS will keep the car from going sideways, unless youre already turning. If you didnt know already then the fastest way to stop on snow and ice is to lock up the wheels, in that regard ABS is actually a bad thing. It only helps to keep the car from veering off course while allowing you to steer to some extent
Big BIG mistake. You left out the spin-out test, as others mention here. The tests might depend on car and driving style, but from my personal experience, nothing was as serious as the back sliding away in turns. I've had COMPLETELY FLAT tires on snow (3mm is huge compared to what I had). I never ever felt that I couldn't turn properly, being aggressive on the throttle usually got me out pretty easily from traction problems, but I spinned out of control 3 times on the roads. I was lucky, I could've destroyed my car... or even worse. Always, ALWAYS new tires on rear.
+frdradio Actually my luck came to an end last year in January when another guy discovered how important rear traction is. The cars were both total loss, but everyone was ok, I'm happy this was in the city and not outside with higher speeds. That was a nasty night, about -25 C and ice everywhere.
Sounds like your car is often unsafe for drving conditions. Maybe get that under control before giving advice. Please don't hit those of us who actually have well equiped vehicles.
I have driven in northern NY conditions for 45 years. I have driven during winter months vehicles with RWD, FWD, rear engine ( RWD), and 4WD. I have driven on Bias ply tires (snow and summer tires). I have for many years now driven on radial tires of course. I have used summer treads, all season treads, and winter treads of various degrees of aggresivnes. Right now I am using less aggresive mud and snow tires with a softer rubber compound than an all season tire with a similar tread pattern. These tires are on a FWD car, and are working out very well for me. I do not have to change them seasonally. They do wear a little more quickly than summer or all season tires. If I had only two good tires and two worn tires I would put the good tires on the front for traction. I know the "experts say put them on the rear, but I believe I have a much better chance of saving a car wagging its tail than plowing straight ahead. So I agree with Eric.
Bridgestone Blizzak, best snow tire ever. my 2 cents on front vs back debate, if its front wheel drive i put them in front. rear wheel drive id put them in back... awd always buy 4.... but really dont be a cheap ass when it comes to tires. you should buy 4 nicest tires you can afford and start fresh get alignment... good to go..
Eric, you need to do cornering tests. Skidding during turns must be by far the most dangerous scenario and whilst it is pretty obvious new tyres on the front will be better for take off (and controlled straight line braking), some people find it hard to believe that new tyres on the rear will be better for preventing spins during turns (that are taken too quickly).
The issue with your test Eric, is that the car you tested is fwd, test a rwd car and see if you feel the same or maybe new tires should go on the drive axle.
+Boodieman72 It's not an issue. I mentioned in the video it was a FWD vehicle and the conditions I tested the tires in. Most vehicles are FWD these days.
+Boodieman72 Braking and turning is going to be exactly the same for RWD cars as the FWD ones. Only difference is the front tires are going to be the ones braking and turning, while the rear ones are gonna be accelerating your vehicle, so you'd slide sideways if you tried to do faster pulls with older tires. That's just it. With old ones at the rear you will slide, but your braking/turning should be ok. With old ones at the front you will understeer, just like a FWD, and have worse brakingability, just like FWD.
We had a policy at my old job that was "ALL NEW TIRES ON THE REAR" and this was due to lots of testing done by tire manufacturer's. I had 2 managers that went to ride and drives with different tire companies and both times they did demos of new tires on the front vs the rear. The on story that sticks out to me that they both told was a simulated on/off ramp on a wet skidpad, new on the rear maintained 70-75 mph no problem, new on the front and the car would spin around at less than half that so between all those stories I've always ever put the new on the rear when only changing 2.
Here’s the problem. The big killers are from new tires on the front not on the rear. The liability is what drives a lot of this. Companies want people to be safe, but they also really don’t want people to get killed and their family sue them, so you see policies for new on the rear. Some of us really are better drivers, and can handle oversteer better than others. The problem with this video is we’re looking at a parking lot test. Some is valid so e not, but it doesn’t cater to the lowest common denominator or even the average driver really. This video misses a lot of very important factors that can put people into harms way. Interesting test, I actually enjoyed it, but this could be deadly if the wrong person views it and insists putting new on the front. You never know some lawyer could try to implicate him in a lawsuit (not likely depending on how deep his pockets are). Unless you are a professional driver, you really should take the advice of a professional tire store.
@@justinfolk2832 he's hitting at least 30MPH in that parking lot... If your are curious, new tires front with old worn tires rear tends to make cars do a 180 during unexpected urgent braking,,, and sometimes on exit ramps while coming off a highway. @ 10:35 he says ", it's funny how the back kicked out there but the front stayed grippy," go a bit faster and it will spin the car around lol
@@TheGriffRiff ... I enjoy sliding around in the mud and snow, it's good practice for everyone. Though I'll never forget an urgent stop about 20 years ago in a bit of rain, had nice new grippy tires on the front thinking just replace the rear tires sometime "soon" ... On I-95 when a crash happened ahead of me my car spun around backwards during the urgent stop, I was then drifting backwards while braking... I didn't become part of the pile-up or even brush up against a jersey-wall or guard-rail but I'd much rather have been facing the right direction during the incident lol. Side note; Firestone Firehawk tires have excellent wet weather traction : www.firestonetire.com/tire/firehawk-as?ef_id=Cj0KCQiAyJOBBhDCARIsAJG2h5cr81BpOCzT1lG-Rj1CSieqoyKDxcJLZXb4jdti-YAHOioMo49hGJgaAqKAEALw_wcB:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!5372!3!435533027226!e!!g!!firestone%20firehawk%20as&lw_cmp=sem_fst-us_g_pi_slink&keyword=firestone%20firehawk%20as&campaign=10060093397&adgroup=97961849261&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyJOBBhDCARIsAJG2h5cr81BpOCzT1lG-Rj1CSieqoyKDxcJLZXb4jdti-YAHOioMo49hGJgaAqKAEALw_wcB
Thanks for the scientific method on this, I really enjoyed it. The clear advantages of new on the back you didn't test; braking in a turn and feedback that tells you to slow down. Both things that an experienced driver will have fewer problems with.
Swedish driver's aid instructors always say "Put the best tiers on the rear axel". It's also required by law to have winter tires in the winter. So just get em you silly Americans ;)
***** "that's fucked in the head" I still dont see how that relates in any way to their intelligence. Its as if I completely disregarded someone's ideas because they really like hot dogs or some shit
in a front drive car I'd put newer tyres on , as they drive the car , as well as stop it , but in snow and ice ?? , not sure if it would make much difference .It would be interesting to see what would happen in a rear drive car , good test for the Fairmont . ; P
please, 20psi is penty on most tires. and you wouldnt debead, you would just bent the rim lol but thts well under 20psi, i run mine at 25 which is 10 less then recommended, never had issues and have plenty more traction, you must not live in an area with snow.
20psi is not adequate under most conditions. Getting unstuck being a notable exception. According to google we get an average of 83" of snow annually but most of my experience is from stage rally. I've debeaded a tire probably 15 times and lost a number wheels. Probably 2 or 3 were wheels failures but it's hard to tell what failed first. A quality wheel will not bend but will break if hit hard enough. All my wheel failures were due to rocks stuck on the caliper cutting them in half. Our super stiff rally tires we run at 23 front 25 rear but they are harder than runflats. Snows we run at 35 to 40 and sometimes use tubes. Slicks we run all over the place depending on the car and temp.
+ltwargssf R 20 feels like flat on every 205/60/15 or 205/55/16 tire I have had. When it snows, I might lower my PSI from 38/36 down to 32/30, but that's about it. With a good set of all seasons, you're generally set for everything.
Obviously dont drive on 20psi everyday but if it doesn't snow a lot in your area and you have no choice to drive on a big storm on crappy all seasons, you drop that tire pressure. 25psi is the sweet spot in general but it really depends on your tires.
Due to my advanced old age, the vehicles I grew up driving were all RWD. Most of the new vehicles are FWD. Where I live, we drive in rain more than snow. This being said, we always put new tires on the rear for a RWD and on the front for a FWD. This way you have the most traction on your drive wheels. Doing this prevents hydro planing in the rain. I would like to see more testing with those conditions in mind.
Same thoughts. In southern England definitely more rain than snow. I would reason the same - RWD on the back, FWD on the front. If you drive FWD hard I understood that you will initially get oversteer - front wheels running out of grip as you turn in to a corner.
I always put the new tires on the drive axle (front for FWD, rear for RWD). Acts as traction for that axle. Your tests have too many variables due to snow, icing, and wind speed. I used to drive tractor-trailers cross country. I have seen trucks STOPPED on snow and ice SLIDE from the wind alone. I have experienced that myself. There is a video on TH-cam where they tested 4 cars on a track with dry, wet, and simulated ice. Two were FWD and two were RWD. All used the same tires and approximately the same weight. The FWD cars were easier to control in adverse conditions. However the RWD cars were able to stop quicker in the same conditions.
First off I have to say Eric I'm a subscriber that has learned lots from watching your shows so keep up the good work. Many of us appreciate it. Having said that I live in an area of Canada where we can get snow 5-6 months of the year and all that comes with it. I'm in my 60s so I've had my fair share of experience over the last 40 some years. My experience is the best control comes with the newer tires on the rear. Summer or winter makes no difference. Experience has taught me the better tires should always be mounted on the rear. I'll give this one day test the benefit of the doubt that where you live during warm snow conditions this combination might give better traction with the better tires on the front, but this test is not even close to what most drivers are going to encounter over the course of a typical winter. The test conditions are far too limited to come to any definitive conclusions about what combination works best for everyday of the winter or even year for that matter. At best this test is an observation with one particular car with one particular combination of tires on one particular winter day. Cheers and stay dirty.
All season tires are shit. Some decent winter tires are the way to go.
+stupa55 Nokian tires for example
It all depends on the climate you live. I have on one of my cars all season tires and they are scary at winter and even on a rainy summer day :/ on the other car I use daily I have Dunlop Blu Response and for the Winter Nokian WR ones but on really snowy days I'm not that happy with them. Had before refurbished winter tires and they where awesome on roads full of snow and ice but crap on wet roads and where noisy as hell :D
+stupa55 Guess you have never bought Conti DWS all season, they might as well be winters they are amazing. Also when you live in area like I do were its snow and 20F one day and then 70f the next, winter tires are not realistic.
+stupa55 a must for rwd to be worth anything that sees 5-6"+ type snow.
+stupa55 I got deep mudding treads. When I have them brand new, I can't even drift around corners on dirt roads, and I love making my jeep slide on dirt roads. :-)
thank you Eric for all the effort you've put into making this video.
x2
+RedneckRectum A simple complement turned into a crude sexual reference. You must be a joy to be around.
+Nathan Burton reported
+RedneckRectum what exactly?
Except that he gives horribly bad advice!!
This video is a good demonstration of the benefits of newer tires being up front, however out of personal experience I'm still a firm believer of newer tires in the rear. I drive super defensively so stopping distance and my ability to suddenly turn aren't as big an issue for me as oversteer is. Yes I definitely feel the increased understeer and stopping distance in non-dry conditions, but with the way I drive, I give myself enough room to account for it.
However when I ran more worn tires in the rear, I had multiple instances of oversteer - some of which almost led to accidents. Constantly worrying about oversteering does not justify the benefits of the better traction up front with the way I drive, in my opinion. Since I do a lot of highway and open road driving, I personally value rear stability more. Imagine making a 300 mile road trip with the back constantly kicking out and you might understand my point a little more.
I don't mean to discredit your video at all, just felt like sharing my experience about the subject a little.
I agrre! This test is not relevant for driving at highway speed.
Or just buy 4 new tires
@arjay smithjr they used to say u don't need a seat belt do u still believe that seat belts are dangerous. I remember when they first introduced them.
If you put the newest up front, by the time they wear down, the back tires will be totally junk..and you will have to buy four brand new tires, next time around.. I say to never have junk tires..good should be up front, and best in the back.. a lot of front wheel cars don't have much down force in the back..and I have broke the rear end lose before and it definitely wasn't cool..
What I always say is whats easier to control, under steer or oversteer? It’s always oversteer in a fwd car because when you understeer and the wheels that do most of the braking and all the power delivery and all of the steering lock and slide straight no matter which way you turn, you have no control. When the back end slides, you can pull yourself back straight and control the slide. This is part of why I always drive RWD cars, my current vehicle is rear bias AWD so if I start to slide I can give it power and regain control of the slide.
I grew up and learned how to drive in northern Wisconsin. I completely agree with everything you did and said in this video. If I only get 2 tires, they ALWAYS go on the front. I've worked as a technician for the big tire places, Good Year, Firestone, NTB. They all say put the new ones on the back then try to scare customers into buying 2 more for safety reasons. I actually had a "big wig" from Ohio Firestone office ask me one time if I ever had a blow out on the rear of a car. Yes, I have. In my full size truck doing 70MPH down the freeway. I pulled over and changed it and was on my way. If that would have been on the front I would have lost control and most likely crashed or worse. He had nothing to say. Sorry for the rambling. My experience tells me better tires always go on the front. Great video Eric!
Brian Ludwig th-cam.com/video/oa9hzcjdi5Q/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/TOUnOMaCCZ4/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/EkXCGJ8EG60/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/qYcTrzmePnU/w-d-xo.html
Yah I was just at the tire store. And they where going on about new on rear. WTH? I was taught new on front on a FWD and new on rear on RWD
This was very interesting. Just last week I took my car in to have the tires rotated. The rear tires were better and the front tires were wearing unevenly. Back in a former lifetime (1964-1983) I worked at my father's service station. At that time, the rule was, "put the better tires on the front". My tire guy would NOT rotate my tires because, "the better tires must be on the rear." I told him that I was rotating tires before he was born and that was not the rule back then. Could he tell me when the "rule" changed and why? He threw up his hands and said, "you obviously know more about this than I do!" and stalked off in a huff. I have been a customer of that tire store for better than 20 years ... and I am within a millimeter of taking my business elsewhere when I buy new tires in a month or so. BUT, I went home and googled the issue. As others have noted here, the published advice of tire manufacturers does seem to have changed over the years and the "better on back" seems to be the rule today. And the reasoning is about control when hydroplaning. Better to be unable to turn (front skid) than to have the rear swap ends suddenly (rear skid). Makes sense in theory - though your empirical experience seems different. But what has changed since the "old days"? Well, back then, our concern was about control after a blow out. Would you rather blow a front tire or a rear tire? Intuitively, I think we all believed that a car would be more controllable with a blow out on the rear than with one on the front. Remember, for example "Unsafe At Any Speed" - a book which gutted the poor little Corvair because of its tendency to have blow outs when turning ... and then flipping the car when the rim would dig into the asphalt. Maybe tires are better now and blow outs are not the concern that they were then? Anyway, it would seem that the issue is debatable (except to my tire guy). Thanks for the vid Eric. I always enjoy and learn from your videos!
Best tires on the rear is a marketing ploy to sell the other two tires.
Isn't it mind boggling how irrationally some people act when you simply point out the fact that you are older than them? I don't get it.
Obviously the front should have more grip because drift car.
DISCLAIMER: TheLeafySpring does not condone mean skids on public roads.
I prefer hektik skidz myself.
emiliorescigno hektik skidz are best skids
since most drift cars are all rear wheel drive that actually makes sense .. give them hell... :-)
I think the real lesson here is: 3/32nds is too low to be in the front OR the rear!
+emiliorescigno That's one of the best points made yet.
Eric, thanks for sharing your bone chilling findings. It took a lot of effort for you to go through those life saving experiments. Thanks
All I can say is, on my old FWD car, I installed new tires on the front, and put the "good" older tires to the rear. I was driving down a 4 lane road in the rain, with a slight curve to the right. A road I had driven in the same conditions for many years. The next thing I know, the rear of my car lifted (hydroplaned) and I went spinning into oncoming traffic. Learned my lesson. Either get 4 new tires, or put the 2 new on the rear. Snow is one thing, but rain is a different animal.
+Kevin Vance Snow makes little difference since physics will work the same way.
+Kevin Vance And if you had new tires in the rear, than you would just understeer head on in the oncoming traffic. The problem is that you didn't choose the right speed for the turn and were not prepared that there could be hydroplaning which is plausible in wet conditions and weren't fast enough to countersteer.
Whatever dude. I was there, you weren't. The cause of the hydroplaning was the fact that the rear tires had less usable tread than the front. it's simple cause and effect. You assume too much.
Kevin Vance
whatever you are bad at driving ;)
+Kevin Vance You were driving too fast. There's an underpass with a fairly sharp left turn underneath on my commute. With new tires on a dry road, I'll take the turn at no more than say, 40mph, and then I feel it in the tires. If it's wet, I slow waaaay down. I went through at 15mph once, because my tires were nearly bald. Watched in the rear-view mirror as the car behind me swerved left, cut back to the right, went sideways, and went head-on into the wall on the right. I don't care if he had new tires, old tires, FWD, RWD, or AWD...he was going too fast for the turn. Any time it rains, there's a decent chance there's going to be a car sitting on the side of the road that smacked into the wall.
Man I am impressed you got out in all that snow to do this for us Eric. Thanks for that.
A lot would depend on how worn the older tires are. If they are close to the end of their lives, then probably put the new ones on the rear. But if they have a lot of meat left, then put the new ones on the front. The front tires wear faster because most of the braking is done up front because of the weight shift forward. If you're lucky, the new front and old rear will then need to be replaced about the same time, and you can get all four tires next time. I never had a problem doing this, and if I did in the snow, I'd just drive slower in slippery conditions. It's all about the braking. SLOW DOWN!
What if you have a RWD car and you always accelerate like crazy?😂
I used to go by the rule of thumb that you put the newer rubber on the drive wheels. I think it depends on the car and the situation but I'm now of the opinion that front wheels are generally the better choice. Reason being that steering and braking are heavily front biased no matter the drive train configuration.
All these people who don't drive their cars in snowy and icy conditions many many months a year telling to put the better tires in the front :D ...... And no-one believes us nordic people who do. Even at our driving license test its mandatory to go to a winter driving course on slippery special test facility to see how the car reacts in different situations and they say to _always_ put the better tires at the rear. So says all the insurance companies and experts on this matter. The better steering input drops dramatically when you go above the snail speed of 20-30mph that eric just did here and it induces snap oversteer which can't be corrected. You just become the passenger.
+Ville Vainio exactly !!
Yes but if you live in a snowy climate and don't have winters you're either a danger or you're the reason for traffic on snowy mornings. (other than low visablility) Either way please equip your vehicle properly or work from home.
Yep. But if its dry summer, cold and wet or slippery conditions the better tires go always at the rear. And the tires should be rotated front to back and back to front occasionally to get even wear.
I can agree with that on most conditions. However the fronts almost always wear faster so if they are close enough and you've kept up on your rotations than the fronts will likely be the better tires until they wear down to match the rear again.
you might live in snowy country but that doesnt make you a better driver. Full stop
That is an old question Eric , I agree to replace all 4 when its affordable to do so .... Great Video , and a Great Effort .
I've wondered this same thing for a long time and I really appreciate the testing you did Eric. I am of the opinion that tire and insurance companies tell you to put the best tires on the back for liability reasons. You are more likely to lose traction in the rear with bald tires in the rear than with tires deep in tread and losing traction in the rear is more dangerous than losing it in the front...or at leased that is how the argument goes. I agree with you Eric, the best solution is just buy 4 new tires.
Eric, great demonstration. When money was short and I needed snows, I always opted to put them on the front while my half worn all-seasons stayed the back. I took this setup to an extreme (and stupid) test one morning when 2 inches of fresh powder was on a back-country paved road (upstate ny). Took the 60 degree turn quick on purpose and before I knew it I fishtailed, landed in a ditch and knocked out a wooden fence. That entire winter season aside from my dummy test with good tires on front were nothing short of being safe when sudden stops were necessary or going through tricky, day-to-day curvy road situations. The key to good handling is ultimately knowing your vehicle and knowing how to drive. Nonetheless, the tire companies will say "new to back, worn to front". They're strict to the fact that most vehicles have the most weight in the front and that weight will aid in more grip for less treaded tires. The understeer can be corrected easier because the majority of drivers don't know shit about driving safely or how their vehicle handles in different situations. So yeah, for drivers who know what they're doing, new tires on the front. If you don't know how to drive under a variety of diverse conditions, including rain, 4 new tires. In any snowbelt...4 snow tires is the ultimate.
Thank you Eric for your great videos. They are awesome. You are one of the best mechanics that I always watch besides Ratchets & Wrenches and Rex Fix. All of you are excellent and appreciated. Thank you for your teaching and demonstration.
You did a great job Eric. New on front. It's been that way since I can remember.
I agree to put new tires in the front.
However, the driver need to be aware that the car will easily oversteer because the back has way less traction.
+Jean-Philippe Grenier Good point.
wheres if you had the good tyres in the rear no over ster , and any over sterar you will get control because the rear will have new tyres ,,, yet you think you got control apart from the over stear ??? what control ???
You will recover from understeer with the worn tires on the front FAR better than from oversteer with worn tires on the rear!! Worn on the front, you have less steering control, worn on the rear, you have NO steering control when that rear end breaks loose and spins you around!
More junk in trunk. Slow down.
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When I was a rubber jockey 10+ years ago, the rule was FWD: Better tires on the front. RWD: Better tires on the rear.
Fast forward to 2009, I worked for KAL TIRE. They insisted FWD gets better tires on the rear, RWD: better tires on front. I got into several heated arguments with the completely untrained staff at that store and they insisted I was wrong. Let me just reiterate that I have proper vocational/mechanical training, and most of the drones at that KAL TIRE store had gone through the store-level training.
I quit after a week. I refused to make peoples vehicles unsafe, but I also couldn't agree with their business practices of 450% markup. I simply could not look people that I'd known all my life and grown up with that tires for their 1987 Ford pickup were going to cost $2200!!
If it's insurance companies forcing this change, someone needs to force the insurance companies. They are completely backwards and your test proves this!
As a person who does a lot of winter mileage and that tried both, it's always better to have the best tires in the front. That way you have a better change of avoiding something if ever the worst should happen. P.S. We have to have winter tires here in winter and you can get a big ticket if you don't.
I agree, going head on with an oncoming car due to not being able to change directions is not fun. I speak from experience. New tires on the from thats a good idea :)
Honda putting the horn in front of the signals and windshield controls as buttons is by far my favorite feature and I'm always stoked to see it in other models lol
I work at a tire and auto repair shop. I know that tire manufacturers and car manufacturers have done extensive testing, multiple times, over years and years and I can assure you that the new tires should always go in the rear. In the front, you have the weight of everything under the hood to keep the front end stable, as well as the steering wheel, so you can steer yourself out of a pickle (if you know how to drive in the winter, which you should, if you live in a wintery area). In the back, there’s nothing, so the best tires should go there, so as to minimize your chances of fish-tailing or spinning out.
Does it make a difference front or rear wheel drive
@@sweetvuvuzela4634 No. No matter what drive-train you have, the newer tires should always be in the back
@@JustinLGary 👍🏻
Steer yourself out of a pickle? Dude, the new tires in the back just failed the moose test in this video, what are you talking about?
you should put the best tires where you have the biggest brakes, if you'd like to stop faster.
Hey Eric, i'm a first year automotive engineer(applied science) in the Netherlands. In class we had a discussion about this.
My teacher said that the reason why you would want to have your good tires on the back is because understeer is easier to compensate for than oversteer. So in most cases it is safer to have understeer.
And since your new tires are on the back, you will be far more likely to experience understeer.
Because the bad front tyres will loose traction before your new rear tyres.
I hope this makes sense to you.
Keep up making these videos!
This assumes that all drivers are idiots behind steering wheel and speeding. I never had that problem as when it is ice or snow outside on the road, I drive slowly. Now when crawling and driving carefully uphill, stopping or just driving along the road it is much better to have new tires on the front. I had oversteer on 2 occasions on my other cars where I had all 4 equally new/old tires and ESP corrects it without any problem if you are driving with respect to weather conditions on the road. (slowly)
@@mouselionpcIt is a lot safer to assume that all drivers are idiots. Maybe you are a good driver but most people are not and you can't assume everyone has electric safety systems like esp, tc, abs and its not safe to solely rely on said systems. There is no real downside to mounting new tyres in the back only upsides.
@@silencer9112 I think you missed the point of my previous comment, ignore the ESP/TC/ABS part, that was just a side story. To me there was a lot of downsides (driving slowly) with my old tires on the front on my FWD car. Never again! Could not stop, steer or even go uphill, while my brand new tires were being pulled at the back axle doing nothing as in FWD car, front wheels do 90% of the work.
@@mouselionpc maybe I did, but my point is that there are a million and one situations that don't apply to your previous experiences and that in the end safety is the most important. Losing traction in rear is one of the most dangerous things that can happen to a less experienced driver.
Over-steer is easier to control than under-steer. I'd really whip my tail out to hit a car than to slide head on with the wheel fully turned. Although I follow far enough away now that that wouldn't be a problem, unlike most drivers.
+SlipknotMaggot0526 unexpected oversteer on a fwd car on the other hand is a bitch to correct
+SlipknotMaggot0526 Never understood why people just speed when conditions are bad or tailgate.
+audioh0lic absolutely no difference whatsoever between fwd and rwd once you're off the throttle.
+SlipknotMaggot0526 agree absolutely.
when you understeer you either have to wait and hope for the best until it grips, or yank the handbrake.
with rwd you can also do a clutch dump (or just go full throttle), which will in many cases transfer your understeer into a nice drift, which will increase curvature of your trajectory, as well as slow you down. but you also have the other two options.
rwd gives more flexibility.
However, a rubbish driver can crash any car, so it's not so much a matter of which wheels of your car are driven, but how ignorant you are.
+zloychechen5150 Agree I absolutely fear under steer. I do not know why car makers consider it a safety feature. All I can think of is being hit by oncoming traffic and being powerless to do anything. Not sure if pulling the hand brake is going to help much. I try to keep to rear drive cars.
Thanks Brian for standing out in the cold to get this footage!
+Ultra Motor Source I will pass that along. Brian did have to suffer during this shoot. Thanks for considering my cameraman.
Im living in the Nordic country. 4-5 months snow. Mostly we put better tyres on the back. Beacause in high speed rear end gonna slip mostly not front. And I think nobody dont wanna crach in high speed situation.
+Meelis K that's the correct way.
+Meelis K Just depends on the drive dtrain..
+No No. Not at all. If you're car is FWD, better tires on the front will only make you accelerate better. Not corner or brake more safely. Better tires on the back stabilize the car under braking and cornering, meaning you've got a smaller chance of spinning out.
+Aaron Benninger I allways put the new tires on the front, no matter the drivetrain. I can allways adjust the speed if cornering is a problem. If the car spins under breaking, so what? I see it like this, stopping distance is what matter. I would rather spinn out twice a week than run down one pedestrian during my lifetime. That being said, I haven't spun out in about 10 years now.
Above the arctic circle, we allso have long winters.
+Aaron Benninger this video has demonstrated otherwise
Eric, you are the best, doing these tests in the cold just so we don't have to.... Thank you...
I've turned a wrench for the last 25 years. Always did the install of the new tires on the drive axles. I have a severe dislike for shops that do extreme hard sells to customers that they MUST always get 4 new tires, otherwise they WILL be unsafe. It's called common sense while driving on snow and ice. (and yes, water covered roads as well) I do strongly disagree with the min tread thickness! Ya hit those wear bars? That's like running a slick and the tires are useless on water/snow. Again, this boils down to driver training and common sense.
I can park my truck on a dime (RWD, newer tires on the back). I can also maintain excellent control and do not rely on ABS. To many people get dependent on all the gadgets and they forget how to drive on bad roads. Be safe and don't drive like an a&&. That will get you to your destination safer.
havent been in a shop but 3 years and i tell managment and my svice advisors unless the tires are cupped up bad if they have good tread i cant reasonably sell more than 2 tires.
The idea behind putting new tyres on the rear of a FRONT drive car is for cornering stability in wet conditions, it is better to understeer (back off throttle to regain control) than to oversteer (fall off road backwards or sidewards) - you can test this by having car with old on rear and new on front, finding a large wet area where you can drive in circles until grip is lost - if you suddenly back off then chances are the rear will swing out as the weight transfer goes to the front wheels. If you then do this test with the tyres fitted the other way around, the front will simply wash wide and you can wait until speed reduces a little and the front pulls back in. However, on snow, grip is so low in the first place that this instability is a non issue (mostly) and of course four new tyres is the best option, preferably studded for winter conditions.For a REAR drive car, of course the reverse is true, for the same reasons :-)
+Darren Coull Excellent points.
New tires on the front: Better traction, braking and turning.
New tires on the rear: Better cornering stability at speed and less likely to spin out.
I actually have tested this myself and when i put the newer tires on the front the car was much esasier to drive in the city @ low speed. But then when driving @ higher speed i almost lost control when i took an easy turn in about 80km/h and the rear kicked out.
This was with an front wheel driven Audi 100.
+AudiB5Tuner Probably the most reasonable comment yet. Thanks for your input.
My old tires on rear I make em slide around a right hand turn on snow on purpose. In no traffic , no people.
And the conclusion is to put new tires on all four.
So then all 4 new tire wear down to bad on all 4 tires.
@@ericthecarguy Like you, I prefer more traction, steering, and braking control at the front. Once i made the mistake of having the new tires at the back, and i comfortably slid into the car in front. I have never spun out in any car with new tires at the front. I am no professional, but you want more control at the front, where you actually steer.
Great idea for a video! Looks like the comments are all over the place, but you demonstrated exactly why YOU like newer tires on front. I agree, and on my 4x4 at low speeds, this has been the best mix for me too... At higher speeds? The rear probably would slide out with a lesser tread depth. Surely everyone knows speed and momentum is the key to driving in bad winter conditions and adjusts properly
I personally will never go back to all seasonal. winter tires have a crazy amount of tire grip in snowy conditions.
Thanks brother. Glad to see some sence in the comments.
Me too. Winter and Summer Tires are worth having for the right time for the year.
Personally, I've had $300 all seasons outperform $500 snow tires. They also outperformed a cheap set of studded snow tires.
The same set also did better than any summer tire I've tried.
Is it ok to put 3 used tires and 1 new tire on all wheels drive SUV?The used tire about 2,3 year old.
the "gain" you'd get from new tires isn't something anyone ought to consider. instead safe driving practices in the snow is far more important. NEVER slam on your brakes AND do your best to stay a good distance from the vehicle in front. it is not a race.
Thank you for helping my husband and I make a decision. We were having quite the argument 🤣
Thx Eric.
Hey - the Acura paint job looks good in low resolution and out in the snow 😝
You are 100% correct with the new tires upfront fro FWD cars. New Tires in Rear for RRD cars. Nothing like having a second set of SNOW tires and wheels for the winter. Should add that to your test. Would blow everyone away.............Thanks for posting. Just seeing your channel for the first time. We have loads in common.............
I always recommend on the front on a FWD car. We have alot of accidents here in Wisconsin in the winter. There are cases where the rear kicks out on people mostly when driving too fast for conditions. But almost all are related to steering loss and breaking issues (lots of deer accidents). Even when it is the rear that lets loose it is much easier to correct when that happens when you can steer out of it and use the gas to straighten you out.
Thats pure dedication to the viewers for ya, real world testing.Yeah, I'd say on balance, the front is best.Well done.
In my experience front is always best, however when I put 2 tires on my Mustang before winter they told me it was better to put them on the rear. I still made them put them on the front because When I turn the steering wheel I want the car to respond as much as possible. This may very well have saved a guys life because I was topping a hill at night and blinded by an oncoming car when all the sudden he appeared in front of me walking in my lane. I tried the brakes, but just slid. I then released the brakes and turned into the oncoming car's lane missing him. The oncoming car went off the road to avoid me, and we all got away with no injuries. For those that are going to say "you should have turned the other way", the curb would likely have guided my car straight into the pedestrian. Anyway, the new tires on the front meant that the car responded and turned when I turned the wheel. If I had the tires on the rear, I think I would have slid trying to turn and hit him. My car now has all 4 tires. I just could not do them all at once.
Well, and I know this is two years old, but the reason you skidded so bad in the first place is because you braked when they started to skid. That's what you do when your fronts start to skid, but with the rear, you need to accelerate, which is less than intuitive for most people.
this discussion makes more sense on a Rear-Wheel-Drive car.
I've driven in snowy and icy roads for twenty years so I think I'm qualified to mutter a couple of words.
There are two separate things happening there.
First, I absolutely prefer better tyres in the rear: understeering is quite a forgiving condition on a slippery surface whereas the tendency to oversteer can quickly cause a spin when the grip goes away in a bend. Snow drifting is fun and while it's also controllable (by steering counterwise to the direction you're drifting) you do not want yourself or other cars drifting on (or, in reality, spinning into) the opposite lane in wintery roads. Understeering gives at least some limited steering control, especially much more so with anti-lock braking. You will still lose much of control but you'll lose it gradually with no surprises, and with some margin of maneuverability left to correct the situation. Front wheel drive is generally more predictable than rear wheel drive for winter driving, and it gives better traction in the winter also because the engine weight sits on top of the driving wheels.
The second thing, however, is that once you find yourself in a situation where you experience either understeering or oversteering you've actually already driven too fast and a lot of bets are already off at that time. Yes, regardless of your experience the road surface can have very slippery spots or surprise black ice, and you can not always know that. But you can always anticipate, and when you see other cars or other obstacles in front of you or you're not sure how slippery it is, you can always anticipate more. When the conditions are slippery you don't want to slide anywhere or otherwise lose grip. At all. That's simply imperative, and everything else follows from that.
Anecdotally, driving through the winter I practically never in a typical winter driving conditions (snow and/or ice) lose control but that's only because I know to drive slow in the winter. If I lose grip momentarily that is already a big warning sign for me: that shouldn't have happened. For example, when Eric was trying to zigzag between the cones with the bad tyres in front he was going way too fast considering the available grip. Electronic stability control systems will only push those limits further while shrinking the margin more narrow. That is, you'll be able to drive faster and safer within the limits the system can handle but when you do lose the grip it's gone for good. Ditto for 4WD. On the other hand if you drive slowly, you'll develop a sense of how much traction you're losing and keeping at any given time. You can then factor that in when making choices about your speed, estimating braking distance, etc.
Some word of advice from the North, besides driving slow:
1) prefer winter tyres in wintery regions and drive slow; if you don't use winter tyres, drive even slower; if uncertain of your grip in any case, drive slow enough that you will again find grip. Always know where the grip is.
2) know your enemy: if uncertain choose an empty patch of the road to test how slippery the road or surface is. For example while driving, brake first gently and then with more force until the ABS engages briefly; do the same with acceleration: hit the pedal a bit more than necessary until the tractive wheels lose grip momentarily or ESC disengages power; finally, test lateral grip by steering gently, slightly towards left and right until you establish to yourself some sort of boundary where you might be close to momentarily losing grip on that particular road in those particular conditions. Then stay away from those bounds by driving slow enough that you don't need to swerve, brake, or accelerate too quickly. Like, when approaching an intersection with red lights, you can quickly test the road surface by braking momentarily in advance so that you know if the road is more slippery than you thought, allowing yourself to brake safely before you would actually end up sliding and finally rear-ending another car.
3) find a place to practice what to do in case you do lose the grip. An empty parking lot is good but ideally you would find an area with enough room to hit 60mph/100kph and then safely test braking, turning, and dodging cones or other obstacles. It's good to force your vehicle to understeer and oversteer and find your way with both. I don't know if you have test tracks for practicing driving on slippery conditions and experiencing the winter roadholding in the USA but in Scandinavia spending a day on such a track is a mandatory part of driver's license training.
Note: AWD systems (Subaru symmetrical, Audi quattro, etc) it is fairly crucial to replace all four tires at once. If one cannot or otherwise have to run "outsized" or spare, put the "bad" tires in the rear and pull the fuse/relay to put it into FWD until you can remedy the tire situation.
I completely agree with you in regards to a FWD vehicle. But what about a RWD?
Put a crappy set on rear and spin like hell!! 😂
cool, I found this interesting to watch because last time I put new tyres on a car I asked for them to go on the front and the shop disagreed with me and said no always have the better ones on the rear. I understand that in a situation where your car is spinning out of control good tyres on the rear would probably benefit, but I think it was pretty evident in your video that in an everyday driving situation its probably more advisable to have good traction up front :) cool video
If you live in areas that get snow/black ice, you're probably better off buying a dedicated set of tyres just for winter use. Don't need to have fancy mag rims - just plain, practical and designed for that specific weather.
I was always taught to always put the new tires on the drive wheels the drive wheels being on the front or on the back doesn't make a difference I always put the brand new tires on the drive wheels
what about rear wheel drive cars then? I've always believed in putting the best tires on the driven wheels. Newest on the front for front wheel drive and obvious newest on the back for rear wheel drive. With carful throttle control I'd prefer to have drive grip than bang on precise steering.
New tires ALWAYS go to the back. It is easier to control understeer compared to oversteer. The last thing you want is your car fishtailing on the highway in the rain.
@@jacktran960 lol my back slides even with new tires a crown vic easy to slide
2005 Saturn Ion Redline, manual, no traction control, brand new snow tires on the front, have not had a problem with spinning out, loss of control, or crappy braking. I currently in the northern peninsula of Michigan where snow is a massive problem, if I want to go anywhere and up the hills around here I needed them on the front. I take corners slower, and I don't drive like an idiot all of the time unless I want the back end to come out on purpose. I am all for putting the snow tires on the front.
I doesnt matter if you run slicks or brand new tires.
You dont have winter tires on snow, you have all seasons
From my own experience, I've definitely found that the new tires should be put on the drive tires. Just this past snowstorm (Jonas) in Tennessee, in my Chevrolet Trailblazer I went up with the new tires on the front of the SUV when it is a rear wheel drive vehicle. Literally every time I shut off the car when I got back in I would have to spend at least 15 minutes getting unstuck in the 3-4 inches of snow. Once I rotated the tires to have the new tires on the back where the wheels were powered, I never once got stuck or lost traction again, even with all season tires and no winter tires. Hope it helps you guys
Putting the good tires on the front is very dangerous, especially on old cars without any kind of computerized traction control. Shure, the braking distance will be shorter, but as the rear wheels are guiding the care, you will completely lose control of your car and spin like a bottle. Maybe on new cars, the stabilization control can compensate a lot, but once it starts spinning, you're lost. That are my experiences made on parking lots and driving on the road.
Always the good tires on the back!!! You are perfectly correct! Don't trust TH-cam videos!!! This is bad advice!!!
@Jerry Why would you not trust the company that makes the tires?
fun fact: In the Swedish driving license test courses, people are taught to put the best tires in the back, because understeer is safer than oversteer... This is regardless of FWD or RWD.
Thank you Eric for this video! New tires should ALWAYS go on the front in vehicles weighted more than 50/50 front/rear for experienced drivers. For novice drivers this may not be true since oversteer/understeer becomes an issue, but for the vast majority of people stopping distance and acceleration is far more important in real world scenarios. If it were my teenager I would put new tires on the rear but never for me.
The best scenario isn't always the lowest common denominator as it is legally.
Sorry, no. Better tires at the rear, always. On dry pavement it doesn't really matter but even wet road makes all the difference.
+Mawerick77 where do you live anyway? I've been driving on rural icy snowy northern Minnesota since I was 10, and also a master mechanic. Anyway, I see so many broken axles/tie rods/wheels/front ends this time of year from people not being able to control which direction the vehicle is going. New tires on the front, always.
Marcus Taintor
That would be Finland. You know, the home of world rally champions and grannies who drift their cars during winter? :D
I do see your point. However, my point is what happens when you hit a puddle on a highway @ 60mph. If you have worse tires in the front, they will aquaplane. Aquaplaning at the front is not really a problem though, since all you need to do is to keep the wheels straight and gradually slow down until you regain control. Aquaplaning at the rear on the other hand... you'll get snap oversteer and are more than likely to go spinning wildly across the median or in the ditch.
Now, I know which one of those two options is safer. So do car manufacturers, tyre manufacturers, insurance companies and pro racing drivers. This is why 99% of cars are set up to have mild understeer from the factory.
nice, I would love to visit finland some day. The only reason the rear end would come around is if the person was braking and turning at the same time. Although I feel like braking would better since the front wheels do most of the braking. I agree it does increase the possibility of the rear end coming around in certain situations. The other problem I see a lot of in my poor neck of the woods is people driving till the wires are showing. I would much rather have my rear tire blow out than the front, much less likely to loose control and roll.
+knurlgnar24 me personally, my crown vic is almost 50/50, and i [prefer my new tires on the front. i can then use those front tires to control the car as it loses traction. if im going to hit something, i will steer the car head on. but if i just lose the rear, i very carefully drift it with a little throttle to scrub speed to help my situation.
Everyone will say that new tires should go on the back to avoid dangerous over-steer, but If I know I have less than great tires on the back, Ill know to be extra careful taking corners, especially in the wet, and avoid swerving to avoid any road hazards that may suddenly pop up. I would rather know the good tires are on the front for stopping purposes. At the end of the day, you are more likely to need to stop quickly in a straight line due to a road hazard, and if you are going fast enough in bad conditions to cause dangerous over-steer during a sudden emergency, frankly, that's your own fault. Slow down as conditions change, and know you can stop better in a straight line with the extra time you afford yourself by driving more slowly.
Your conclusion may hold when driving on snow, but driving on shallow standing water is a much more common condition, and putting the newer tires on the back reduces the tendency of the rear end to start skidding sideways in a hydroplaning situation.
SAFETY is always best with 4 new tires and will deteriorate with wear. Minimum tire wear is a federal standard, not a measure of tires ability to keep you safe. Also driving conditions will vary greatly. Snow, Rain, Sand, Gravel, Mud, etc.... The Michelin video I watched prior was on a wet road and they pretty much admitted that worn tires on front will make the driver more aware of road conditions as they will loose traction first, so they will slow down to a safe speed. Safety first.
You pretty much showed in your video exactly why you put good tires on the rear, ironically, as the reason was to make the driver slow down.
If you want to go faster, you need better tires, of course road conditions will vary... and danger increases with speed.
I also think they should be on the front, being able to steer out of trouble is worth more than the slight gain in braking.
Just my opinion :-D
+zx8401ztv I think it depends. It's probably better to put them on the rear for driving at speed in wet conditions, but in these conditions, I'd say put them on the front. I'd also say 4 new tires are always better than 2. Thanks for your input.
+EricTheCarGuy
Yes i was only judging them by your test conditions, and 4 spanking new tyres for the particular weather conditions would have been the best.
Great video for traction in the snow. I also think I will remain a "newest on rear" enthusiast.
I have a 2000 xj (Cherokee ) and a 2009 HHR. The jeep is an easy decision, having most traction at the rear drive wheels. Even so, I experience severe fishtailing in winter climates when in 2 wheel high, but when in 4 wheel high I could climb a tree.
We have only had the HHR for a month now, new tires all around, and it does nicely. Impressive given a concrete driveway that rivals most ski resorts.
I can, however comment on a Cavalier a friend had.....HAD. Newest on front scenario. Hit water, hydroplaned, and the rear went out around. Ended up 720 into the opposite side of the highway through the grass median and hit broadside into the opposite guard rail.
I know alot of people who sandbag the trunks of their fwd cars to prevent this in the snow. For me, the concern is the rain that happens year round without warning. placing newest at front provides a false sense of security through improved handeling. if I need to go somewhere in s! $@ tastic western pa weather, I take my jeep. But for cars, I think weight and traction for all weather events is key.
if you are driving on snow get winter tires not all weather
Great Video! I was a tow truck driver for 10 years i have seen so many crashes my thought is if you can't afford good tires all around on your vehicle than just don't drive! your putting yourself and others on the road at risk of injury or even death! and another thing before i would flip a vehicle back over the police would always check the tire depth you could be charged even if you didn't cause the accident if you have bald tires!
I had a FWD minivan where I had two studded tires I'd put on the front in winter. I'd rather go around a corner sideways (very predictable and manageable oversteer) than not be able to leave my driveway at all for lack of any traction.
That said, in the snow I'd still rather have my 4WD Jeep with old OR new tires than that minivan. :)
Doing this test in snow is like testing-listening to a stereo with an infant screaming.
Finally a real life test that doesn't assume everyone drives round wet bends at speed. 👍
so your scared of a bit of speed because the rear wil escape ? here's is an idea , put the dam new tyres in the rear ...
But people do go around bends at speed on the motorway, duel carriageways and country roads...
J right? What’s your point? People don’t just slide out going round a bend on a motorway. Unless it’s WET and high speeds. In which case you should probably slow down or get some tyres that aren’t so shit.
What is better? All four normal winter tires.
opposite conclusion with the Michelin test in TireVanMan.
You are to hard core lol Always love the videos Eric.
next time you do a brake test use an external speedometer such as a GPS APP it may give a more accurate speed of the car.
or find someone with a radar gun.
+David Ashabranner It will not
+orbits2 A GPS will be much better. Its base the speed off the movement of the car and not the wheels which don't even have grip on the road.
+drink15 From experience, GPS is not accurate, reliable or repeatable for speed, velocity or distance at low speeds and short distances.
patw52pb1 Can't dispute your experience, but GPS is used as a official measurement tool as well as radar. Both more accurate than the speedo built in to cars which is depended on the size of the tires. Which can change due to temp and PSI.
i would like to see the same test with a rear wheel drive vehicle of nearly the same weight
It's better to put new tires on the front and back (winter tires!!!). But if you really can't afford 4 tires, then 2 on the back is better option.
now perform this test with new and old tires on the Fairmont for tests on rear wheel drive. With the exceptions of ABS, traction control etc. Keep up the great work!
Depends on FWD or RWD. New tires on the front won't matter if you can't even get the vehicle moving in a couple inches of snow.
*Winter specific tires* are really worth the cost, if your serious about wet weather or snow conditions. I can not imagine going back to "all season" tires for winter conditions.
Never drove a vehicle with all wheel drive with winter tires but I bet it would be a blast to haul off the line with them. I do have a Front WD econo car and a RWD pickup truck with the same tires type (General Altimax Artics) mounted on all four wheels. Traction is never an issue with them
This is bad advice. You're always supposed to put tires that have better traction in the rear. Doesnt matter if its FWD, or RWD. When you have less traction in the front, your accelerating (if fwd), and braking are immediately effected. The second you start driving, and braking you will know your cars limits. But when your rear tires have low traction, you wont know it until you take a turn too hard, and spin around. And that will always come as a surprise. You put fresh tires upfront, you think you have grip, you drive way too confident, then you make that right turn too fast, your rear end goes out, and you spin around, or worse, hit a parked car.
This is why tires with better grip go in the rear.
+Kirill Ostapenko Please read my detailed response here. www.ericthecarguy.com/kunena/18-The-EricTheCarGuy-Video-Forum/62284-is-it-better-to-put-new-tires-on-the-front-or-back
Drinking the tire salesman koolaid.
Never heard of this. We always put the new tires on the front down here. Would you rather have a blow out of the wheels that steer or the ones that simply need to go in a straight line?
When replacing tires in pairs, the new pair should always go on the rear. It does not matter if vehicle is FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD. The deciding factor is a normal drivers reaction to a skid.
With the older tires on the front, there is less traction in front, so the front end skids out. The solution to a front end skid is to brake, that is what happens as a normal reaction.
With the older tires on the back, there is less traction in rear. so the rear skids out. The solution to rear skid is to apply more power, but the normal reaction to brake, that makes the skid worse.
Gas and counter. Love oversteer. Understeer in a sin. But you're probably right for most muppets.
+talltomrich1 You seem like quite the muppet.
Tyler Hunt No doubt! But a sponsored professional muppet haha. Who, (Like EricTCG) drives more vehicles in a week than most will in their entire life.
Hahahaha. Ok bud. Driving a car around the block as a mechanic really means fuck all.
Means more than you think. Techs deserve respect. Especially these days when they have to an expert in so many areas. Many have astounding knowledge and skill. I just build rally cars. Painting the cage on one now.
I wonder what gear Eric is using at 6:00 to set off? In those conditions in my own five gear car, I use third gear and plenty of revs, with the clutch dipped low. If I use a lower gear I just get wheel spin and not go anywhere. My car is a Peugeot 306 2.0 XSi
I always put them on the front, because I would rather have the ability to countersteer a slide than have the rears grip up and the fronts plow along
If you have to "countersteer" you are allready driving too fast or too close to someone. And if you countersteer like you think you have the ability to, the end of the car will not follow your "smart" plan but go straight forward. good luck, have fun.
Keeganwebber:
Good luck with that mentality ...
Nice vid Eric. I like how you were able to sneak in mm for the tread depth. Made it easier to tell that the bad tires had about half the tread.
there is one very important test missing - braking on a curve. This test shows how car really behaves with old tires on the rear wheels.
Look at you getting all scientific! That was a great video and test. The best thing I have ever done to a car was getting a new set (4) of Yokohama tires... Really, the difference in handling, stability, quietness and even fuel consumption (minor) is amazing.
I am not sure which tire manufacturer that was, but they recommended that you put the new tires on the back for the following reason. Imagine you are driving on a super wet road and you have to brake really hard. If one pair of tires loses traction you want it to be the front one before the rear one for stability reasons or otherwise the back will come flying to the front.
In your scenario it seems that putting the better tires on the front yields a better result, but keep in mind that if you are going to avoid a collision by stearing all of a sudden you are most likely going to brake as well, especially if you are close to hitting a pedestrian. In that case it is very likely that the rear end would not follow the front end's turn and just keep going straight and then after spinning around hit the person/car in front of you. You might say that in both cases it looks bad, if otherwise the car would crash straight into whatever is ahead of you, but I think that tires work better at braking if you are going straight than sideways which would be the case if the car kicks out, especially if you have ABS on all wheels. I hope that makes sense..
+pcfreak1992 ABS will keep the car going straight with some control, it wont "kick out" unless youre already turning on awful tires
+lolatmyage I agree with you. What I meant was that it is better if the tires go straight while you try to brake, since ABS will maximize traction. So if the vehicle would turn sideways, there is no way the ABS could help. But if you have better traction on the rear and the car is kept straight, the ABS can assist at maximizing traction. Sliding sideways is just like locking the tires which would happen much more likely if you have good traction at the front but poor traction at the rear tires.
pcfreak1992 But ABS will keep the car from going sideways, unless youre already turning.
If you didnt know already then the fastest way to stop on snow and ice is to lock up the wheels, in that regard ABS is actually a bad thing. It only helps to keep the car from veering off course while allowing you to steer to some extent
Thanks for the video , my mechanic put my tires in the back when I specifically asked they be in the front 😬
Big BIG mistake. You left out the spin-out test, as others mention here. The tests might depend on car and driving style, but from my personal experience, nothing was as serious as the back sliding away in turns. I've had COMPLETELY FLAT tires on snow (3mm is huge compared to what I had). I never ever felt that I couldn't turn properly, being aggressive on the throttle usually got me out pretty easily from traction problems, but I spinned out of control 3 times on the roads. I was lucky, I could've destroyed my car... or even worse.
Always, ALWAYS new tires on rear.
+Ri Max yep--35 Maine winters taught me that.
+frdradio Actually my luck came to an end last year in January when another guy discovered how important rear traction is. The cars were both total loss, but everyone was ok, I'm happy this was in the city and not outside with higher speeds. That was a nasty night, about -25 C and ice everywhere.
+Ri Max Always someone who has to complain... Nice video eric.
+drummerdude he is right you know, always new tires on rear.
Sounds like your car is often unsafe for drving conditions. Maybe get that under control before giving advice. Please don't hit those of us who actually have well equiped vehicles.
I have driven in northern NY conditions for 45 years. I have driven during winter months vehicles with RWD, FWD, rear engine ( RWD), and 4WD. I have driven on Bias ply tires (snow and summer tires). I have for many years now driven on radial tires of course. I have used summer treads, all season treads, and winter treads of various degrees of aggresivnes. Right now I am using less aggresive mud and snow tires with a softer rubber compound than an all season tire with a similar tread pattern. These tires are on a FWD car, and are working out very well for me. I do not have to change them seasonally. They do wear a little more quickly than summer or all season tires. If I had only two good tires and two worn tires I would put the good tires on the front for traction. I know the "experts say put them on the rear, but I believe I have a much better chance of saving a car wagging its tail than plowing straight ahead. So I agree with Eric.
Bridgestone Blizzak, best snow tire ever. my 2 cents on front vs back debate, if its front wheel drive i put them in front. rear wheel drive id put them in back... awd always buy 4.... but really dont be a cheap ass when it comes to tires. you should buy 4 nicest tires you can afford and start fresh get alignment... good to go..
Eric, you need to do cornering tests. Skidding during turns must be by far the most dangerous scenario and whilst it is pretty obvious new tyres on the front will be better for take off (and controlled straight line braking), some people find it hard to believe that new tyres on the rear will be better for preventing spins during turns (that are taken too quickly).
The issue with your test Eric, is that the car you tested is fwd, test a rwd car and see if you feel the same or maybe new tires should go on the drive axle.
+Boodieman72 It's not an issue. I mentioned in the video it was a FWD vehicle and the conditions I tested the tires in. Most vehicles are FWD these days.
+Boodieman72 Braking and turning is going to be exactly the same for RWD cars as the FWD ones. Only difference is the front tires are going to be the ones braking and turning, while the rear ones are gonna be accelerating your vehicle, so you'd slide sideways if you tried to do faster pulls with older tires. That's just it.
With old ones at the rear you will slide, but your braking/turning should be ok. With old ones at the front you will understeer, just like a FWD, and have worse brakingability, just like FWD.
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+Boodieman72 Honnestly doesn't matter in the slightest because ALWAYS put the better tires at the front because handling is more important than power.
Medicinal_Cyanide And with old tires at the back you can do some hegtig skidz m90 and not worry about wearing out good tires
We had a policy at my old job that was "ALL NEW TIRES ON THE REAR" and this was due to lots of testing done by tire manufacturer's. I had 2 managers that went to ride and drives with different tire companies and both times they did demos of new tires on the front vs the rear. The on story that sticks out to me that they both told was a simulated on/off ramp on a wet skidpad, new on the rear maintained 70-75 mph no problem, new on the front and the car would spin around at less than half that so between all those stories I've always ever put the new on the rear when only changing 2.
Try braking from 50 MPH...
...and you'll find out why new tires go on rear !
If its shitty snowy conditions why are u doing 50 in the first place -_-
Even better, try to simulate emergency braking during cornering with worn rear tyres.
Here’s the problem. The big killers are from new tires on the front not on the rear. The liability is what drives a lot of this. Companies want people to be safe, but they also really don’t want people to get killed and their family sue them, so you see policies for new on the rear.
Some of us really are better drivers, and can handle oversteer better than others. The problem with this video is we’re looking at a parking lot test. Some is valid so e not, but it doesn’t cater to the lowest common denominator or even the average driver really.
This video misses a lot of very important factors that can put people into harms way. Interesting test, I actually enjoyed it, but this could be deadly if the wrong person views it and insists putting new on the front. You never know some lawyer could try to implicate him in a lawsuit (not likely depending on how deep his pockets are).
Unless you are a professional driver, you really should take the advice of a professional tire store.
@@justinfolk2832 he's hitting at least 30MPH in that parking lot... If your are curious, new tires front with old worn tires rear tends to make cars do a 180 during unexpected urgent braking,,, and sometimes on exit ramps while coming off a highway.
@ 10:35 he says ", it's funny how the back kicked out there but the front stayed grippy," go a bit faster and it will spin the car around lol
@@TheGriffRiff ... I enjoy sliding around in the mud and snow, it's good practice for everyone. Though I'll never forget an urgent stop about 20 years ago in a bit of rain, had nice new grippy tires on the front thinking just replace the rear tires sometime "soon" ... On I-95 when a crash happened ahead of me my car spun around backwards during the urgent stop, I was then drifting backwards while braking... I didn't become part of the pile-up or even brush up against a jersey-wall or guard-rail but I'd much rather have been facing the right direction during the incident lol.
Side note; Firestone Firehawk tires have excellent wet weather traction :
www.firestonetire.com/tire/firehawk-as?ef_id=Cj0KCQiAyJOBBhDCARIsAJG2h5cr81BpOCzT1lG-Rj1CSieqoyKDxcJLZXb4jdti-YAHOioMo49hGJgaAqKAEALw_wcB:G:s&s_kwcid=AL!5372!3!435533027226!e!!g!!firestone%20firehawk%20as&lw_cmp=sem_fst-us_g_pi_slink&keyword=firestone%20firehawk%20as&campaign=10060093397&adgroup=97961849261&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyJOBBhDCARIsAJG2h5cr81BpOCzT1lG-Rj1CSieqoyKDxcJLZXb4jdti-YAHOioMo49hGJgaAqKAEALw_wcB
Thanks for the scientific method on this, I really enjoyed it. The clear advantages of new on the back you didn't test; braking in a turn and feedback that tells you to slow down. Both things that an experienced driver will have fewer problems with.
Swedish driver's aid instructors always say "Put the best tiers on the rear axel".
It's also required by law to have winter tires in the winter.
So just get em you silly Americans ;)
Summertires in winter is straight up madness!
+Bobby Lemon Because that clearly shows the quality of their driving advice, like seriously how can you belive these guys
***** "Clearly they should be in no place too have an opinion on anything if they can't even fuck they're own species most of the time ...." Why not?
***** "that's fucked in the head" I still dont see how that relates in any way to their intelligence. Its as if I completely disregarded someone's ideas because they really like hot dogs or some shit
***** "for any normal human" Cant wait to hear what counts for a "normal human" for you, oh wait.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
in a front drive car I'd put newer tyres on , as they drive the car , as well as stop it , but in snow and ice ?? , not sure if it would make much difference .It would be interesting to see what would happen in a rear drive car , good test for the Fairmont . ; P
lower that air pressure, as low as 20 on some cars, you want that tire bulge, it will help traction.
And debead on a bump or pothole? No thanks.
please, 20psi is penty on most tires. and you wouldnt debead, you would just bent the rim lol but thts well under 20psi, i run mine at 25 which is 10 less then recommended, never had issues and have plenty more traction, you must not live in an area with snow.
20psi is not adequate under most conditions. Getting unstuck being a notable exception. According to google we get an average of 83" of snow annually but most of my experience is from stage rally. I've debeaded a tire probably 15 times and lost a number wheels. Probably 2 or 3 were wheels failures but it's hard to tell what failed first. A quality wheel will not bend but will break if hit hard enough. All my wheel failures were due to rocks stuck on the caliper cutting them in half. Our super stiff rally tires we run at 23 front 25 rear but they are harder than runflats. Snows we run at 35 to 40 and sometimes use tubes. Slicks we run all over the place depending on the car and temp.
+ltwargssf R 20 feels like flat on every 205/60/15 or 205/55/16 tire I have had. When it snows, I might lower my PSI from 38/36 down to 32/30, but that's about it. With a good set of all seasons, you're generally set for everything.
Obviously dont drive on 20psi everyday but if it doesn't snow a lot in your area and you have no choice to drive on a big storm on crappy all seasons, you drop that tire pressure. 25psi is the sweet spot in general but it really depends on your tires.
Good, thank you for taking the time to do all of those tests
I would guess whether your car is FWD or not would matter too...
+opl500 Nope. The back end will always lift up under braking regardless of trivetrain
+opl500 NO
+nblax41 but on the acceleration test a rwd car would be better with new tyres at the rear.
Due to my advanced old age, the vehicles I grew up driving were all RWD. Most of the new vehicles are FWD. Where I live, we drive in rain more than snow. This being said, we always put new tires on the rear for a RWD and on the front for a FWD. This way you have the most traction on your drive wheels. Doing this prevents hydro planing in the rain. I would like to see more testing with those conditions in mind.
Same thoughts. In southern England definitely more rain than snow. I would reason the same - RWD on the back, FWD on the front. If you drive FWD hard I understood that you will initially get oversteer - front wheels running out of grip as you turn in to a corner.
I always put the new tires on the drive axle (front for FWD, rear for RWD). Acts as traction for that axle.
Your tests have too many variables due to snow, icing, and wind speed. I used to drive tractor-trailers cross country. I have seen trucks STOPPED on snow and ice SLIDE from the wind alone. I have experienced that myself.
There is a video on TH-cam where they tested 4 cars on a track with dry, wet, and simulated ice. Two were FWD and two were RWD. All used the same tires and approximately the same weight. The FWD cars were easier to control in adverse conditions. However the RWD cars were able to stop quicker in the same conditions.
First off I have to say Eric I'm a subscriber that has learned lots from watching your shows so keep up the good work. Many of us appreciate it. Having said that I live in an area of Canada where we can get snow 5-6 months of the year and all that comes with it. I'm in my 60s so I've had my fair share of experience over the last 40 some years. My experience is the best control comes with the newer tires on the rear. Summer or winter makes no difference. Experience has taught me the better tires should always be mounted on the rear. I'll give this one day test the benefit of the doubt that where you live during warm snow conditions this combination might give better traction with the better tires on the front, but this test is not even close to what most drivers are going to encounter over the course of a typical winter. The test conditions are far too limited to come to any definitive conclusions about what combination works best for everyday of the winter or even year for that matter. At best this test is an observation with one particular car with one particular combination of tires on one particular winter day. Cheers and stay dirty.
+Geoge Reed www.ericthecarguy.com/kunena/18-The-EricTheCarGuy-Video-Forum/62284-is-it-better-to-put-new-tires-on-the-front-or-back?limitstart=0