For what it's worth, THAC0 is really not that complicated. The THAC0 tables are there so you don't have to do math, but they are not needed. You can simply write down your THAC0 and use that. For an attack, roll the dice and subtract the roll from your THAC0 - that is the AC you hit (that AC or higher). Say your THAC0 is 18 and you rolled a 12. You hit AC 6 or higher. It boils down to this... which PEMDAS letter do you want to use? Ascending AC uses addition and THAC0 uses subtraction.
This is exactly my point whenever someone brings up how "hard" THAC0 is to understand. It's just basic subtraction. I'd heard THAC0 was so indecipherably difficult to understand, and was expecting to spend upwards of an hour learning how it works in AD&D 2e. It took me a maybe a minute tops, more due to the layout of the book than the mechanic.
I grew up DM'ing AD&D 2nd Edition. Prime meant that your highest die rolls had to be applied to Strength & Intelligence. DEX could've been the 3rd highest roll, but your top 2 rolls had to go to STR & INT
I've yet to play whitebox but I bought 4 physical copies in hopes to run a game before well yeah you know. I've been wanting to play it for a while and quite enjoyed just reading it
This is one of my favorite systems, even if I have heavy homebrew changes to character creation rules. I have a few homebrew classes, class tweaks, the bard class, and I diminished the to-hit tables to just be THAC0.
Personally, it's the art that I like most of these retro clones.mechanics be damned, just give me a pen and ink drawing of whatever I'm fighting or exploring and Im happy.
I know this is an old post but what style of play exactly? Been doing this whole TRPG thing for closing in on forty years and I will say play style is often more a matter of DM then it is the system. There are some systems where the rules really do capture the game better but I never found any version of D&D did that. The newer editions just simplified a lot of the jankness of earlier D&D. At least second and third edition. We don’t talk about 4th and I feel 5th really takes the rules enhancements from 3rd edition but applies them closer to a second edition mindset when it comes to character creation.
From my understanding, retro clones are both to have the original rules "but better" as well as to have D&D, but with the serial numbers filed off. That way you can say your module is for Swords & Wizardry while having it understood that it also works with D&D (this is why, for instance, S&W has the option to use the old saving throws). Now, in theory you are perfectly fine saying your product is compatible with another product, but no one wants to have to pay to win a lawsuit and given how things have gone with D&D, that is a perfectly understandable stance.
I know THAC0 gets a bad rap but it’s not that bad. The 3rd edition change to D&D did make it easier but back in the day it wasn’t to hard if explained correctly and you don’t need a chart.
It's baffling to me that THAC0 - roll = AC hit has turned into a weird shibboleth in D&D discussion. I haven't played a game that used descending AC in decades, but I can still tell you that a 7th level cleric needs an 11 to hit chain-mail. We're literally quibbling over the difference between 1st and 2nd grade math.
Because once you get past the fact that THAC0 was so counterintuitive that even it's creators didn't realize it could be expressed in a simple math equation (the exact same equation used in 3e and beyond just with bonuses being expressed in negatives) and ignore all of the tables to teach that math equation to players directly, having a "penalty to hit of 1" being "+1 to hit" is still counterintuitive, so why not use the intuitive variant?
I find it interesting that you both say “play whatever you want, just don’t be a jerk”, yet you heavily imply that the older editions are inferior: “it’s a better version of that game but is it the best version of THE GAME”.
![Swords & Wizardry Complete (Revised) [A #TTRPG review]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NOa_Ir-f3M8/mqdefault.jpg)
![[UNCUT] "บอสณวัฒน์" แฉ! แหล่งซุกเงินแก๊งบอส ขยันผิดที่ไม่กี่ปีก็เข้าคุก l คนดังนั่งเคลียร์ l17ต.ค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/BL56qIfXYZM/mqdefault.jpg)
“Play whatever you want and don’t be a jerk about it”
Should be rule #1
This is far and away my favorite version of D&D. It's so concise and flexible.
For what it's worth, THAC0 is really not that complicated. The THAC0 tables are there so you don't have to do math, but they are not needed. You can simply write down your THAC0 and use that. For an attack, roll the dice and subtract the roll from your THAC0 - that is the AC you hit (that AC or higher). Say your THAC0 is 18 and you rolled a 12. You hit AC 6 or higher.
It boils down to this... which PEMDAS letter do you want to use? Ascending AC uses addition and THAC0 uses subtraction.
This is exactly my point whenever someone brings up how "hard" THAC0 is to understand. It's just basic subtraction. I'd heard THAC0 was so indecipherably difficult to understand, and was expecting to spend upwards of an hour learning how it works in AD&D 2e. It took me a maybe a minute tops, more due to the layout of the book than the mechanic.
I grew up DM'ing AD&D 2nd Edition. Prime meant that your highest die rolls had to be applied to Strength & Intelligence. DEX could've been the 3rd highest roll, but your top 2 rolls had to go to STR & INT
This is my favorite retroclone by far. Glad to see you finally make a character for it!
o0o0o i really like the dice split screen rolling action
Agreed. It was very cool to look at and helped keep things moving along.
Great vid, I love S&W and the OSR movement, probably my favourite retroclon after White Box: Fantastic Medieval Adventure Game.
I've yet to play whitebox but I bought 4 physical copies in hopes to run a game before well yeah you know. I've been wanting to play it for a while and quite enjoyed just reading it
I'll soon to be getting my AD&D 2nd Edition books back. Ready to play again & I don't recognize D&D anymore.
It means you have to learn at least 4, even if you fail some of the rolls
This is one of my favorite systems, even if I have heavy homebrew changes to character creation rules. I have a few homebrew classes, class tweaks, the bard class, and I diminished the to-hit tables to just be THAC0.
At 6:03 you state equal to or UNDER the saving throw, actually it is equal to or OVER the saving thrown. I think it was a slight goof
Yes, you are correct.
Personally, it's the art that I like most of these retro clones.mechanics be damned, just give me a pen and ink drawing of whatever I'm fighting or exploring and Im happy.
You'd have to use spells without somatic spell components. Only verbal & material components
The reason the OSR movement exists is because older editions support a style of play that modern d&d isnt suited for.
I know this is an old post but what style of play exactly? Been doing this whole TRPG thing for closing in on forty years and I will say play style is often more a matter of DM then it is the system. There are some systems where the rules really do capture the game better but I never found any version of D&D did that. The newer editions just simplified a lot of the jankness of earlier D&D. At least second and third edition. We don’t talk about 4th and I feel 5th really takes the rules enhancements from 3rd edition but applies them closer to a second edition mindset when it comes to character creation.
It would be interesting to see you make a Star Trek Adventures character
From my understanding, retro clones are both to have the original rules "but better" as well as to have D&D, but with the serial numbers filed off. That way you can say your module is for Swords & Wizardry while having it understood that it also works with D&D (this is why, for instance, S&W has the option to use the old saving throws). Now, in theory you are perfectly fine saying your product is compatible with another product, but no one wants to have to pay to win a lawsuit and given how things have gone with D&D, that is a perfectly understandable stance.
Could be time you made a character in The Dark Eye (Das Schwarze Auge) game.
I know THAC0 gets a bad rap but it’s not that bad. The 3rd edition change to D&D did make it easier but back in the day it wasn’t to hard if explained correctly and you don’t need a chart.
Swords & wizardry is fine.
But it is also one of the most basic OSR products ever made.
It's baffling to me that THAC0 - roll = AC hit has turned into a weird shibboleth in D&D discussion. I haven't played a game that used descending AC in decades, but I can still tell you that a 7th level cleric needs an 11 to hit chain-mail. We're literally quibbling over the difference between 1st and 2nd grade math.
Because once you get past the fact that THAC0 was so counterintuitive that even it's creators didn't realize it could be expressed in a simple math equation (the exact same equation used in 3e and beyond just with bonuses being expressed in negatives) and ignore all of the tables to teach that math equation to players directly, having a "penalty to hit of 1" being "+1 to hit" is still counterintuitive, so why not use the intuitive variant?
Could ya do a video on ironclaw?
Already did, th-cam.com/video/SkA1LxDBOzc/w-d-xo.html
I find it interesting that you both say “play whatever you want, just don’t be a jerk”, yet you heavily imply that the older editions are inferior: “it’s a better version of that game but is it the best version of THE GAME”.
I don't see any contrast or contradiction there.
You sound already bored and disinterested in what you’re doing. I don’t like that and we’re just stopping at 3:32. Be grateful you got that.
Seems overly complicated