Fantastic video -- very satisfying to see your process, especially since you've made three custom blue-wrap packs for me that work great and are still going strong. I'll NEVER order another battery on Alibaba when I know exactly what I'm getting from you guys. And your prices are competitive with Alibaba's -- with the added peace of mind that I can trust your build and cell quality. I continue to recommend you guys to everyone I know that rides an ebike. My sincere thanks!
I suggest dropping the output amps to well below what you're doing (exactly on rated cell) because with such a dense pack like that with no cooling a lot of the residual heat from the cells will concentrate towards center of the pack. (check google images showing thermodynamic simulations of this) If you want to avoid new people accidentally shorting out across cells (by dropping plates over cathode/anode of series group for example), I would cut out cardboard or plastic to cover on cells that are not part of the work area.
I cringed when the second side of copper sheets were placed on, like, breathe too hard and you're got a juicy short, at least temporarily tape mask off the cells you don't want to touch. Don't even lay on more pieces, just place one, weld one, repeat.
@@petezel Definitely gotta be careful throwing that second side of copper plates on , no doubt. That is why we always "tack weld" them with a couple welds before going back, so only a few cells are really making good contact
Thank you so much! Yes in general, when a pack is isolated and does not have any way for cooling we generally recommend HALF the rated current continuous and HALF the continuous, this went into a machine where only very occasionally full high amp bursts are used and often the bike is just cruising well below the continuous current limit. Regardless, a valid point! Thank you for your constructive feedback! :)
@@ElectricBikeLaboratory im going to see if those thermal sims hold true real soon because im making a pretty big pack (72v60ah, 20s12p) with multiple thermistors across the pack. It has liquid cooling on cathode and anode side with tecs for subambient cooling, but i should have enough data with just ambient cooling and see if we can increase continuous discharge amps.
It will vary wildly depending on where you're located in the world, the cells in USA are around $4.00USD at wholesale (and this amount of cells gets you to wholesale basically) per cell and that is by far the most expensive part of the build. 320 cells
I have a 1st gen.36 volt pedigo E bike.looking for a replacement battery.while searching I ended up on your batt.build.amazing.Im thinking of building my own replacement battery now.?where can I purchase the lithium cells at? Thanks Wonderful/inspirational video guys
Great video Better than what anyone else is doing, for the negative wire coming out of the BMS a Crimp here would be ideal vs solder. Don't solder wires balance leads while connected to the BMS. I would've put the BMS in a different location just incase it shifted or somehow ended up bridging the 2 main contacts. I would've put a fiberglass plate under the bms over the bus bars just exposing what is needed for the connection. but tbh its all semantics.
Alright. This is hands down the most impressive, usefull, and perfectly explained instructional video. Even when I watch this at 2.5x speed you guys stay well spoken and explain with perfect clarity. It's also pretty amazing how you are low key building the brains and power source of an electric "vehicle" that can be sourced and built almost anywhere in the world.
Lithium battery packs don't really scale by expanding a small existing battery pack to something large and thick. A small pack doesn't have the inner core cells get anywhere as hot as a large thiick pack with cells deep inside the pack getting hot because they don't have coolant taking heat out of the inner plate heat sinks.
@1:02 The ANT BMS is active, it is smart, it does balancing, but it doesn’t do “active balancing” as some may have thought you were implying. @15:35 ANT 22s 170a/425a with 0 hrs run time and all 4 cell temp sensors working. So far so good. But wait… @17:49 we see an ANT 20s BMS with 38 days run time, and only 2 temp sensors working. Meaning it’s not the BMS you installed during this video. I mention this only because the ANT has many models and if choose the wrong one you will lose functionality.
NOTE: Read this short novel if you plan to buy a BMS or have a battery built and need to verify the BMS is the right one. ANT is my favorite BMS, but there are so many models with different characteristics that perhaps should know BEFORE buying one. Some ANTs like the 24s use a very simple balance lead order. Just start at the black wire and continue in order until you run out of cells, then omit the last 4 wires. But some, as shown here in the 22s, for 20s you need to omit wire 12 and connect both wires 11 and 13 to cell group 10. Then continue on down the cell groups. Some ANTs have 4 temperature sensors like the one you installed, and some only have 2 temperature sensors like the file footage you showed of a 38day old BMS, of course 4 sensors has a better chance of detecting a problem that 2 sensors do. Some ANTs have two tiny black wires which can be used to boot the BMS if you don’t have a charger and you get LVP while out riding, which shuts the BMS off so that the BMS doesn’t destroy a battery in king term storage. These two wires touched together for a split second boot up the BMS. But some ANTs use a red and black wire which needs a 3v-5v source connected to boot the BMS. Worthless unless you you carry a battery cell with you when out on rides. The ANT ALWAYS comes set to max rated current settings. In this case, 170a continuous, 425a for 5 seconds, and short circuit is set for about 500a for 0.0012 seconds. So adding a mechanical circuit breaker is just adding a failure point. The Samsung 50g is rated at 2c (10a) continuous and 3c (15a) max non continuous. So a 16p pack has a theoretical 160a continuous and 240a peak. Leaving the bms at 425a for 5s could cause a problem down the road if someone takes thar janky circuit breaker off and puts this battery in a bike with a 72850 (450a DC max). The ANT allows you to make tradeoff in peak power settings but using more amps for fewer seconds or fewer amps for more seconds. For example this BMS should start with lv2 OCP set at 240 for the default 5 seconds. If you onky use a Fardriver 72450 (200a DC peak), you can set lvl2 to 210a (a little room for overshoot) and 15-30 seconds. So if you buy an ANT, buy the right one and then set it according to the weakest link in the battery/power cables, and then set your controller to ensure the ANT never trips under normal circumstances. The controller should always limit current before the ANY overcurrent is reached, and the controller LVP should always be set to shut down the controller before the ANY low voltage protection is reached. Every real ebike battery you can buy has an ANT. If it doesn’t, find another builder. Lol. JK is for cheap used old cells or cheap new cells in a 1p pack. And no, I don’t own ANT stock or have an affiliate link. Final note: the BMS is there for peace of mind in an expensive purchase. Any battery without a BMS or a cell monitoring harness will make you wonder if your pack is balanced and capacity matched. A perfect battery with perfect charger never uses the BMS. But since there is no such thing as a perfect battery or charger, a BMS lets you monitor the health over time, automatically do balancing if you want it to or only do balancing when you manually start a balancing session.
@@imho7250 ANT and JK cost the same lmao, and it's not expensive at all. You were getting ripped off where you bought it. And all of the features you listed are the same in JK
@@ZAKKORD , if you read carefully you will see I NEVER mentioned the cost of either JK or ANT. Would you like to re-read and make a new comment? Lol Notice my comment is not edited, once edited the comment is tainted. Lol
@@imho7250 you're implying that they're not suited for high amp applications when they're using the same models of MOSFETs. You're also saying that they work fine for old unbalanced cells?(that means it has competent balancing, which is a praise). Tainted comments? Are you twelve?🤣
@@ZAKKORD , i did not even mention anything about the ability of the JK to handle high current, even though we know ANT makes higher current BMS than JK. A 108v (30s) 350a continuously and 700a peak discharge battery can be made using 💩 cells, which ANT makes a BMS for. Can you tell the viewers which JK is rated for that? So would you like to try again?
You guys make the most informative video of battery videos. I want to make the Mimi triangle battery that you guys have. Trying to get the 21700 50s battery together with everything I will need to complete the battery. Anyway I’m happy I found this Chanel. Thanks you guys.
1 Your parrallel groups are not optimal shape. 2 soldering discharge ports is not ideal structure, clamping and screwing is the proper procedure 3 fish paper is not waterproof, it holds moisture 4 negative terminal junction of modules is a huge flaw that makes the whole build dangerous. 5 better luck next time
6: Using custom copper bus bars is overkill for 10A cells, especially considering that he used aluminum wires for the BMS. 7: He wired the balance wires while they were connected to the BMS, so there was no way to double check that they were wired right. 8: He did not put fish paper between the overlapping balance wires, adding yet another point of failure.
Since you seem knowledgeable, could you quickly explain how connecting the BMS to sections and not to individual cells prevents the individual cells from having an increasingly varying voltage over time?
@@SifterLTU when two cells are connected in parallel the cell with the higher voltage will charge the cell with the lower voltage, until they are the same voltage. This allows you to treat the parallel groups of cells as one big cell, and only worry about the series connections. This is also why BMSs are only classified by how many cells are in series, not how many are in parallel.
14:45 rather than soldering that conncetion, you would be much better using a copper lug. Then using another copper lug on your line out. (Like the one you cut off the BMS.)
Don't know about the batary being sound but your mike is over loading as it's to close to your mouth the sound on the batary build was slightly better but you need to sort that it's off putting
@@Tore_Lund Even still 2.7AH is not the max for 18650 cells? Cells like LG MJ1 Samsung 35E and others are 3500mah There are MANY different 18650 cells out there that are higher than 2.7AH
Listen this is a nice battery build but why would you go thru all that and put a xt30 charge port. You could easily charge this at 32amps. Furthermore why not use Samsung 50s and get 400a instead of a lame 160a
50s would allow for more peak current. But they run hot when used at hi amps. I'm guessing there would also be a price point difference aswell. Which is usually the deciding factor. So if building for higher endurance, and not needing alot of instantaneous amps then this will be fine
HOW MUCH I PAY U HALF UPRFUNT AND THE OTHER HALF BEFOR U SHIP IT I WAS TOLD AT LEEST 300CASH I WANT EVE BATTER 18650 OR THE NEWER BATTERS 21700 BUT EVE CUZ THERE CHEEP OR SAMESUNG OR LG I FOUND THEM FOR 2$ BATTERY WITH A 50AMP BMS MADE TO FIT IN THE APLLOW GHOST
it looked all great untill you were soldering the wires for the positive and negative terminal to a big blob oif solder. Why didnt you just crimped some ring terminals on it and screwed them together on a bus bar? i really dont like the extensive use of soldering in batterys, that will be the failure points of the futute. Also i like to see a harder shell around the battery. and i like to see normal tabbing wire instead of these copper shields.
Fantastic video -- very satisfying to see your process, especially since you've made three custom blue-wrap packs for me that work great and are still going strong. I'll NEVER order another battery on Alibaba when I know exactly what I'm getting from you guys. And your prices are competitive with Alibaba's -- with the added peace of mind that I can trust your build and cell quality. I continue to recommend you guys to everyone I know that rides an ebike. My sincere thanks!
Absolutely love the videos no other channel goes in depth like this should have more subscribers appreciate the videos
Thank you so much!! :)
I suggest dropping the output amps to well below what you're doing (exactly on rated cell) because with such a dense pack like that with no cooling a lot of the residual heat from the cells will concentrate towards center of the pack. (check google images showing thermodynamic simulations of this)
If you want to avoid new people accidentally shorting out across cells (by dropping plates over cathode/anode of series group for example), I would cut out cardboard or plastic to cover on cells that are not part of the work area.
I cringed when the second side of copper sheets were placed on, like, breathe too hard and you're got a juicy short, at least temporarily tape mask off the cells you don't want to touch. Don't even lay on more pieces, just place one, weld one, repeat.
@@petezel Definitely gotta be careful throwing that second side of copper plates on , no doubt. That is why we always "tack weld" them with a couple welds before going back, so only a few cells are really making good contact
Thank you so much! Yes in general, when a pack is isolated and does not have any way for cooling we generally recommend HALF the rated current continuous and HALF the continuous, this went into a machine where only very occasionally full high amp bursts are used and often the bike is just cruising well below the continuous current limit.
Regardless, a valid point! Thank you for your constructive feedback! :)
@@ElectricBikeLaboratory im going to see if those thermal sims hold true real soon because im making a pretty big pack (72v60ah, 20s12p) with multiple thermistors across the pack. It has liquid cooling on cathode and anode side with tecs for subambient cooling, but i should have enough data with just ambient cooling and see if we can increase continuous discharge amps.
Thanks for the great content. I've been working my way through all your videos - and find myself re-watching some of them a few times.
Thank you so much!
What are the final dimensions, and how much does a battery like this cost?
It will vary wildly depending on where you're located in the world, the cells in USA are around $4.00USD at wholesale (and this amount of cells gets you to wholesale basically) per cell and that is by far the most expensive part of the build. 320 cells
I have a 1st gen.36 volt pedigo E bike.looking for a replacement battery.while searching I ended up on your batt.build.amazing.Im thinking of building my own replacement battery now.?where can I purchase the lithium cells at? Thanks
Wonderful/inspirational video guys
19:12 does the blue insulating fiberglass tape go by another name? Can't find that anywhere :(
FR40
Great video Better than what anyone else is doing, for the negative wire coming out of the BMS a Crimp here would be ideal vs solder. Don't solder wires balance leads while connected to the BMS. I would've put the BMS in a different location just incase it shifted or somehow ended up bridging the 2 main contacts. I would've put a fiberglass plate under the bms over the bus bars just exposing what is needed for the connection. but tbh its all semantics.
Great feedback, thank you!
This video was so helpful I’ve been thinking of building my own battery but been hesitant because of the lack of knowledge
Holy Cow! That is a BEAST! 💪🦵🚴♂️🤩
This design size fits perfectly into fiido q1s body frame
Alright. This is hands down the most impressive, usefull, and perfectly explained instructional video. Even when I watch this at 2.5x speed you guys stay well spoken and explain with perfect clarity. It's also pretty amazing how you are low key building the brains and power source of an electric "vehicle" that can be sourced and built almost anywhere in the world.
Thank you so much! :)
Lithium battery packs don't really scale by expanding a small existing battery pack to something large and thick. A small pack doesn't have the inner core cells get anywhere as hot as a large thiick pack with cells deep inside the pack getting hot because they don't have coolant taking heat out of the inner plate heat sinks.
That is why the big packs need to be way overbuilt, so that heat is not an issue. But thank you for your feedback! Its a great point
Nice Build! What's the weight on this one?
Approx. 25kg
@@NaTe4825 Wow! Not Bad.
Loving that 80ah monster!!!
@1:02 The ANT BMS is active, it is smart, it does balancing, but it doesn’t do “active balancing” as some may have thought you were implying.
@15:35 ANT 22s 170a/425a with 0 hrs run time and all 4 cell temp sensors working. So far so good.
But wait…
@17:49 we see an ANT 20s BMS with 38 days run time, and only 2 temp sensors working. Meaning it’s not the BMS you installed during this video.
I mention this only because the ANT has many models and if choose the wrong one you will lose functionality.
NOTE: Read this short novel if you plan to buy a BMS or have a battery built and need to verify the BMS is the right one.
ANT is my favorite BMS, but there are so many models with different characteristics that perhaps should know BEFORE buying one.
Some ANTs like the 24s use a very simple balance lead order. Just start at the black wire and continue in order until you run out of cells, then omit the last 4 wires. But some, as shown here in the 22s, for 20s you need to omit wire 12 and connect both wires 11 and 13 to cell group 10. Then continue on down the cell groups.
Some ANTs have 4 temperature sensors like the one you installed, and some only have 2 temperature sensors like the file footage you showed of a 38day old BMS, of course 4 sensors has a better chance of detecting a problem that 2 sensors do.
Some ANTs have two tiny black wires which can be used to boot the BMS if you don’t have a charger and you get LVP while out riding, which shuts the BMS off so that the BMS doesn’t destroy a battery in king term storage. These two wires touched together for a split second boot up the BMS. But some ANTs use a red and black wire which needs a 3v-5v source connected to boot the BMS. Worthless unless you you carry a battery cell with you when out on rides.
The ANT ALWAYS comes set to max rated current settings. In this case, 170a continuous, 425a for 5 seconds, and short circuit is set for about 500a for 0.0012 seconds. So adding a mechanical circuit breaker is just adding a failure point.
The Samsung 50g is rated at 2c (10a) continuous and 3c (15a) max non continuous. So a 16p pack has a theoretical 160a continuous and 240a peak. Leaving the bms at 425a for 5s could cause a problem down the road if someone takes thar janky circuit breaker off and puts this battery in a bike with a 72850 (450a DC max).
The ANT allows you to make tradeoff in peak power settings but using more amps for fewer seconds or fewer amps for more seconds. For example this BMS should start with lv2 OCP set at 240 for the default 5 seconds. If you onky use a Fardriver 72450 (200a DC peak), you can set lvl2 to 210a (a little room for overshoot) and 15-30 seconds.
So if you buy an ANT, buy the right one and then set it according to the weakest link in the battery/power cables, and then set your controller to ensure the ANT never trips under normal circumstances. The controller should always limit current before the ANY overcurrent is reached, and the controller LVP should always be set to shut down the controller before the ANY low voltage protection is reached.
Every real ebike battery you can buy has an ANT. If it doesn’t, find another builder. Lol.
JK is for cheap used old cells or cheap new cells in a 1p pack.
And no, I don’t own ANT stock or have an affiliate link.
Final note: the BMS is there for peace of mind in an expensive purchase. Any battery without a BMS or a cell monitoring harness will make you wonder if your pack is balanced and capacity matched. A perfect battery with perfect charger never uses the BMS. But since there is no such thing as a perfect battery or charger, a BMS lets you monitor the health over time, automatically do balancing if you want it to or only do balancing when you manually start a balancing session.
@@imho7250 ANT and JK cost the same lmao, and it's not expensive at all. You were getting ripped off where you bought it. And all of the features you listed are the same in JK
@@ZAKKORD , if you read carefully you will see I NEVER mentioned the cost of either JK or ANT. Would you like to re-read and make a new comment? Lol
Notice my comment is not edited, once edited the comment is tainted. Lol
@@imho7250 you're implying that they're not suited for high amp applications when they're using the same models of MOSFETs. You're also saying that they work fine for old unbalanced cells?(that means it has competent balancing, which is a praise).
Tainted comments? Are you twelve?🤣
@@ZAKKORD , i did not even mention anything about the ability of the JK to handle high current, even though we know ANT makes higher current BMS than JK. A 108v (30s) 350a continuously and 700a peak discharge battery can be made using 💩 cells, which ANT makes a BMS for. Can you tell the viewers which JK is rated for that?
So would you like to try again?
Whoa what a massive Battery.
You guys make the most informative video of battery videos. I want to make the Mimi triangle battery that you guys have. Trying to get the 21700 50s battery together with everything I will need to complete the battery. Anyway I’m happy I found this Chanel. Thanks you guys.
1 Your parrallel groups are not optimal shape.
2 soldering discharge ports is not ideal structure, clamping and screwing is the proper procedure
3 fish paper is not waterproof, it holds moisture
4 negative terminal junction of modules is a huge flaw that makes the whole build dangerous.
5 better luck next time
6: Using custom copper bus bars is overkill for 10A cells, especially considering that he used aluminum wires for the BMS.
7: He wired the balance wires while they were connected to the BMS, so there was no way to double check that they were wired right.
8: He did not put fish paper between the overlapping balance wires, adding yet another point of failure.
What what be an optimal shape for the parallel groups bud?
Since you seem knowledgeable, could you quickly explain how connecting the BMS to sections and not to individual cells prevents the individual cells from having an increasingly varying voltage over time?
@@SifterLTU when two cells are connected in parallel the cell with the higher voltage will charge the cell with the lower voltage, until they are the same voltage. This allows you to treat the parallel groups of cells as one big cell, and only worry about the series connections. This is also why BMSs are only classified by how many cells are in series, not how many are in parallel.
@@Calthecool Makes sense. Thanks!
Outstanding video! Knowledge!!💪🦵🚴♂️⚡️
Thank you!
Nice build. I was wondering if they make blue shrink wrap big enough for that battery
We couldn't find it haha
Just curious how much a custom build like that would run
Where do you buy the custom busbars for the battery? i need to rebuild my ebike's battery, and i would like to use something like that
Thank you, we use a company called WELLGO on Alibaba, they are fantastic!
Great video deserves more subs
Thank you so much!
no fish paper spacer on the positive side?
Nice job man! Impressive.
Thank you!!
great build!!!
14:45 rather than soldering that conncetion, you would be much better using a copper lug. Then using another copper lug on your line out. (Like the one you cut off the BMS.)
We will give that a try next time :)
Amazong Job. What a dream to have LETTTSSSGGGGGGGOOO ... THIS IS Gangster
Thank you so much!
Would go sick with my stealth bomber build 🥲
What process did you use to determine the type of cells needed.to achieve 80 Ahs?
Thats easy.
5000mah x 16 cells in parralell = 80000mah = 80ah.
Got it; thanks!
that thing could easily power a small car, let alone a bike holy amperage!
How much do a battery that size weight. 72V 80 Amp hr
What happens if one or more cells are damaged during charging?
Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft POP! ZZZZT.
Wants the BMS for a 60v 20ah
I wished this video existed 3 months ago. I my battery build would have gone way better. Welp time to grab some more and get back to it.
Haha thank you!
Don't know about the batary being sound but your mike is over loading as it's to close to your mouth the sound on the batary build was slightly better but you need to sort that it's off putting
Can you share stl for this holders?
The holders were actually purchased from the company that provides the Copper Plates , search WELLGO on Alibaba they can hook you up!
Hi I'm building a 13a 12p battery and need some help
5 Ah cells? I don't believe it, have you capacity tested one of them, 2.7Ah is still the max for a 18650.
They are 21700 cells.
Before write some stupid comments, maybe first you need to get acknowledge?
@@Calthecool Oh sorry, it didn't occur to me, just thought you had small hands.
@@Tore_Lund Even still 2.7AH is not the max for 18650 cells? Cells like LG MJ1 Samsung 35E and others are 3500mah
There are MANY different 18650 cells out there that are higher than 2.7AH
@@ElectricBikeLaboratory LG IMR cells are around 3Ah I have never seen anyone with higher capacity. That would be Nobel prize winning
Can you do 96volt battery next time
If we build one we'll film it ;)
wow
Want the best BMS for a 60v 20ah battery pack?
Listen this is a nice battery build but why would you go thru all that and put a xt30 charge port. You could easily charge this at 32amps. Furthermore why not use Samsung 50s and get 400a instead of a lame 160a
50s would allow for more peak current. But they run hot when used at hi amps.
I'm guessing there would also be a price point difference aswell. Which is usually the deciding factor. So if building for higher endurance, and not needing alot of instantaneous amps then this will be fine
@BramBiesiekierski makes sense but not the xt30 charge port bump them up next time so atleast you can use a faster charger
@@plojm123 50S Cells have a terrible cycle life
HOW MUCH I PAY U HALF UPRFUNT AND THE OTHER HALF BEFOR U SHIP IT I WAS TOLD AT LEEST 300CASH I WANT EVE BATTER 18650 OR THE NEWER BATTERS 21700 BUT EVE CUZ THERE CHEEP OR SAMESUNG OR LG I FOUND THEM FOR 2$ BATTERY WITH A 50AMP BMS MADE TO FIT IN THE APLLOW GHOST
Ebike guy is hot on your tails, just saying !
More the merrier ;)
it looked all great untill you were soldering the wires for the positive and negative terminal to a big blob oif solder.
Why didnt you just crimped some ring terminals on it and screwed them together on a bus bar?
i really dont like the extensive use of soldering in batterys, that will be the failure points of the futute.
Also i like to see a harder shell around the battery. and i like to see normal tabbing wire instead of these copper shields.
We're gonna give that a try in a future build 👍 Thanks for the feedback!
5760 amp hours ! The places one could go lol
There is little more move for more battery
That is a big bomb!!
Instant subscribtion guys great video. I would like to participate im giveway cheers
Thank you ! Stay subbed! We've got some cool give aways coming :)
Straight up pornograhy! How much is that? $3k?
Great battery to the untrained eye. To anyone who knows what they're looking at, total fail and potential deadly fire hazard my opinion.
State your points!
ｔｈｉｓ ｌｏｏｋｓ ｌｉｋｅ ａ ｇａｍｅ ｃｈａｎｇｅｒ
didn't win