Intake Manifolds. Single Or Dual Plane, and Why
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2020
- All automotive intake manifolds fall into one of two basic families, Single or Dual plane. Here's a quick overview of each design's characteristics and the basic science behind them.
- ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I see confusion in the comments already! Ok, both Tunnel Ram and Cross Ram manifolds are Single Plane design. With an "Air Gap" style manifold...they can be either single or dual plane. The gap is about insulating the bottom of the intake against internal heat from an engine. All Big Block Chrysler intake's, as well as some Pontiac and Buick engines are air gap style from the factory.
Offy Dual Ports are dual plane manifolds with the runners split in half their entire length.
Keep at it Boss.. Oi oi oi..
Look folks use your Google and look at image's.. stop bitching.
and it makes little sense when they put an exhaust crossover in the air insulated ones. but hey the carbs dont freeze up on cold starts
Do any pass the "mustache test"....it states "the whiskers should fit neatly and squarely in each intake port"
@@johnpossum556 LMAO, I needed a flashback and a laugh today!^___^ THNX!
I was kinda think'n about the old cross ram's on the 413. I assume they make tons of low end.
The “Arm broom” best used on work benches to clear crap outta the way 😂🤣
ALPHA MAN 😎👋
Reminds me of First Blood, Rambo putting down rifles on a table to load. Here, Tony is putting down intakes. Well, only one.
That method was outlawed by OSHA back in the mid 1980's.
I put everthing away carfully so I remember what I did with things for next time ...than i forget where I put the shit and walk around in circles
bodywork is fun as long as someone else does it!
or if you are a masochist
My son is this way. Lol
I love how you clean your table
I've done hours and hours worth of reading about intake manifold theory lately, this is by far the best explanation I've heard in regards to the effects of runner length. Well done Uncle T !! And yes, body work is a tedious fuckin nightmare for me too.
I’ve got a mechanical engineering degree, I wish uncle Tony was my fluid dynamics professor, instead of deriving equations we could have been learning how things actually work.
that's an unhealthy mindset. learn both because you can get value from both sides. i have a physics degree but love working on practical problems with my hands.
I've just put on a single-plane (instead of a dual-plane) on my daily fully (IMPCO) propane fuelled ('69) 383CI (custom built) Dodge A108! It works WAY better on all rpm ranges now, because propane doesn't need atomization like gasoline does. It's instant vapourized with O² into da plenum!
Just a small tip, from a wicked Dutch MoPar dude!
... go on....
Propane tank only weighs 494 lbs.
Interestingly, bone stock 2 bl 318s in 71-2 had a low rise, single plane intake that worked very well. An anomaly for production V8s. But Mopars seem to respond well to small single planes, like the old Holley Street Dominator, and the Torker 383. And you can find em cheap at swap meets, $100 or less. Ya wont get a Performer RPM for that! Or an M-1.
This is dead on INFORMATION... Love it... And after all of my messing with Tunnel Rams seem to fall in between the two.. it's just a single plane with more plenum volume and longer runners compared to a reg singleplane Intake... They make more torque in the mid range and carry it out further....
Good Stuff
Andy
Yes! That exactly how to describe a tunnel ram. It’s only because of their intended application that they all tend to have big runner cross sections and work at high rpm. If there was a tunnel ram design with skinnier runners and a short plenum people would marvel at the low RPM performance..... but why do that and have hood clearance problems when other designs would accomplish the same thing.....,
@@johnwilburn Tunnel Rams are the predecessor to the production intakes of today... Tony was dead on.. about the 5.0 Intakes that came out in '86 it made the 302 have the down low torque of a Carbed 351! Which is why they ran so good for what they were....
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Absolutely. Just look at the intake on my Honda CR-V. Enormous plenum and long runners. It’s repacked to fit under the hood and has a variable plenum volume thanks to this vacuum thing inside it, but yeah, it’s relation to a tunnel ram style is undeniable.
Sometimes you hit the sweet spot with bore/stroke, valve size, cam, runner length etc. Being able to position an injector closer to the valve frees up some runner possibilities though.
@@johnwilburn with injection they can flow air rather than mixture which allows them to use longer runners. One of Tony's points. Makes a big difference in smaller displacement engines
This is getting good.
almost every day when I get home from work ,UTG posted a vid like an hour before for my viewing pleasure.
I would like to give a round of applause to Uncle Cathy! That is a woman with a sense of humor... She supports her husband's desire to be in the shop, is an active participant, handles paperwork and does video. Beside every great man stands an excellent woman. I tip my hat to you for being a great lady!
Thank you so much for your videos it is a breath of fresh air so different, so much more information, so much more entertaining, I appreciate you not too many people take the time to explain such subtle nuances in engine building performance thank you again
Excellent explanation!! The last part about plenum volume was key. I'm awaiting a Victor 340 for my 360 (running a 1" spacer), and this video reassured I made the right choice for my application. Thanks Uncle!
Excellent video. The best explanation I have seen yet! I answered so of my questions why a Predator carb likes open plenumam a body man by trade. Started at 16, am 58 now. Patience is a virtue, doing bodywork in a restoration test that virtue. Hang in there.
I'm educated in your subject matter and I must say I enjoy listening to your videos. keep up the good work mate!
A shame you didn’t have a cross ram intake available to explain the “pulse” better. The 413 sonoramic commando was a hell of a motor
A 413 Max Wedge was a better one!
Donell Muniz is the the one with the giant intake runners ? Four barrel on each fender well, crazy.
Uncle Tony! I LOVE this intake stuff! It's a great subject for an engine power bed-time story! I'm sure if you had more time you'd tell the part about a how a dual-plane intake separates those bad sequential intake pulses on adjacent cylinder firings, like the mean old 5-7 firing order you talked about near the end! That's neat how the bad, bad #5 cylinder scavenges from one plane of the intake, but then the evil #7 has to take its breathe from the other plane! Those two cylinders get mad because they're prevented from robbing the intake column from the same area of the plenum in a dual plane! That's GREAT!
I thought it was explained very well myself! The plenum in my cerebellum with a parabellum- my head exploded^___^
Keep at that bodywork UT I'm goin' on 7yrs with mine(it wasn't even wrecked) plus bumper fillers(ready)^___^ THNX!
Proof you need to be brutally honest with the real use of a proposed engine, or modification.
100% 💯% correct Tony and the statement of the prep is 99% of a show car paint job and it is so true and as solid of a fact as your going to get ever!
A gallon of Rust-O-Leum in your favorite flavor, and a roller is good enough for that beater.
Why a roller? It sprays beautifully out of a gun mixed 50/50 with acetone. Not to mention the obvious but you get twice the product to paint another car
The roller for texture 🤣
I've actually done that. A nice black and white 2 tone on my 70 F-100. With foam brushes. Straight outa the can, no thinner. No runs, no drips, no errors, and only one coat needed.
@@disfunctionalmorons1324 With a thinner, ya get runs. And ya might need 2 coats. I used it straight from the can, with foam brushes. Smoothed out pretty good!
I sprayed mine Rustolem satin black, harbor freight $15 spray gun
Back in the 1980's when Opel was still owned by GM they made dualram intake manifolds. Best of both worlds. The switchover from long to short runnerlenght was done automatically (by manifold vaccume? Electric? I forgot)
It worked!
Listen to your Uncle Tony! I've learned to watch the comments too. You usually answer the questions before I ask. Or you make another video! Much love from Merida!
This makes complete sense. Thanks for another great explanation!
So i think i got it now! Long arm across short table at high velocity = massive torque, efficiency and best use of energy, which leads to Maximum Mopar TH-cam Satisfaction! Thanks for the awesome lessons UT keep em flowing!
0:51 Bench clearing action.
I put a Weiand mid-rise aluminum intake on my 1970 440 topped with a Holley 650 double pumper and that motor screamed but, it did move the power curve up in the rpm range a little bit. I mainly used it because it cleared the closed hood on my totally rebuilt and hot rodded ex-State Police Furry III. (Not by much) It was a good choice because using the Chrysler Purple Shaft cam, which also moved the power curve into higher rpm, still was able to work well with the Police Package highway rear gears. A higher stall torque converter would have been better but, this was a road vehicle and not a drag car. I pegged the 140 MPH certified speedo more than once back in my college days. It still was able to demolish the left side (driver's) motor mounts which I had to replace many, many times before I added a chain to the frame back-up to save my fan shrouds which were always destroyed when the mount let go.
awesome info man! I feel I know a lot of the info, but you helped put all the missing parts together that I could not quite figure out. Thank you for this detailed video!!
Grateful. Thank you! I do both mechanic work and body work on a daily basis! I salute you as well, Uncle Tony.
Thanks for the lesson Uncle Tony. Lots of great information here. Comments have to remember this is a cliffnotes not a dissertation.
That’s the best explanation of a dual plane versus single plane intake manifold I’ve ever seen very good
Fantastic explanation of an issue I have been wondering about. Especially the cyl. 5 and 7...i got it completely.
Terrific series Tony...keep up the great work!
THAT WAS THE BEST WAY i HAVE EVER HEARD ANYONE EXPLAIN THIS THANK YOU.
Good video Tony. I liked it and it brought me back to a street car I had many moons ago. a 1964 Ford Fairlane, (a Gorgeous looking blue 2 door) originally a stick six that I changed to q 302 V , C4 auto from a 68 Fairlane. Like you spoke about your Mustang, "The torque that thing made was great!" I curved my distributor, ran one range hotter spark plugs & premimum gas. (Good or bad I don't know but it ran Strong!) my car a non posi 8" rear end w/ a 3.50 gear and I surprised (and got past) a lot f cars I shouldn't have! Keep up with the videos, I always look for them!
The best explanation that you can find on TH-cam
And while you confused yourself, I finally had my “bingo” moment on spacers. Always wondered what spacers were all about..... Now, I need to figure out how to know when I need one. Thx, UT.
Tony, you're explaining it perfectly.
Brother you got this don't quit while your ahead keep sanding and working it
Table clean off js getting you back close to throwing stuff again!
Great tutorial unc.
intake tuning for a single cylinder is straightforward.
Getting that idea onto an 8 and under a hood is a struggle.
usually one cylinder or another suffers to match power.
your explanation is good.
NOW, That's how ya clean a work table/bench!!! Great video & content! Am I getting this right?🤣🤣🤣
Tony’s humor and tech never disappoint.
Raw layman's terms used! Love it... Keep it up my man!!
Awesome explanation, I never realized that a dual plane intake has longer runners. Wow, I mean I knew that single plane intakes are for higher rpm, but I never new why.
Thanks Tony, I used to work at a bodyshop, very underrated, its a job that you'll put 220 percent in, and the customer will still complain 9/10
Brilliant keep the vids rolling man very simple 👌
This is great information.. Thanks Tony
I totally understand your explanation , but I have been into engines for a lifetime, and can't stop myself from learning how things work! I have a 385 stroker I built with a single plane, but been thinking about either dividing it, or swapping to a large dual plane, to gain a bit of low end TQ. Something like a Dart dual plane, something that will fit the larger 220cc runners, good day uncle 'T' !!!..😷
Great explanation, thanks uncle Tony!!
Hi uncle tony very good explanation thank you for your knowledge 🔧👍
I think a whiteboard with some scribbling would have helped me understand it better, I think I got it though. I'll watch it again to make sure I understand it. I was thinking about this the other day actually. I was thinking about putting a Dual Plane intake on my project someday but didn't know if it would serve the purpose I want it to serve for the build. Thanks Uncle Tony!
the body man says the same thing when you work on an engine he don't know how you do it lol
Yup..thats a body man talking right there
Sooo true. I can do both but hate body work myself. Dents add character
That was actually pretty well explained. Thanks.
Yeah if you already know what he's trying to say, but a newbie will be lost forever with that explanation!
You just helped me so much. thanks for the info. You rock man :)
I don't know why I arrived late to this vid, but thank you for the laugh: clearing that table was a therapeutic moment, There are times in a job where pulling off to do something else for a bit really is the right thing to do: it just works.
It's been some time since I crunched numbers, but I sat down one day to figure out the overlap time for a cam I installed at 6k rpm - I came up with 6.1 milliseconds [I think]. That isn't much time for scavenging window. So these valve events happen quick, and so it is with the pulse chaos in the manifold. The constant jitter underneath a 4 bbl in a single plane can be enough to allow fuel puddling which is why some single planes deserve a turtle. My hat's off to the wizards that figure out what combo's of runner length vs plenum volume works for various engine combo's - there's a good list of variables to sort out before committing to a casting. It all looks dead simple - until a combo leaves a bunch of power somewhere with no forwarding address...
Awesome video! I need you to come clean my work bench off!
Great job explaining, THANKS !!!
Great explanation. Thanks.
One "formula" I've learned regarding intakes, the more displacement an engine, the less advantage a dual plane offers. A 455 Pontiac makes equal low end power with a single plane Torker II.
Good to know!
Dual plane manifolds are great for street rods, especially off the light, as per Uncle Tony's comment about @6:10 about 5.0L Mustangs. The RPM range is lower, but 3-4k RPM is crazy torque with a dual plane. I think a dual plane setup could also work on road courses or just twisty roads, for pulling out of corners after braking, but not on straight away sections vs a single plane.
Standing waves and their reflections: They naturally supercharge your intake at the speed of sound (and correct RPM) in engines, and tune impedance match at the speed of light in electronic transmission lines.
A few months ago when you discussed the IIRC cross-ram intake in the circa 1960 Mopars you did a better job explaining this phenomenon.
Ok, science guy.
@@judythomas2939 Damn, you folks are in graduate school, while I'm stuck in 10th grade! And I'm 55! Some of that physics shit is just over my head!
👍🔔
I tend to find that people picture the intake charge in each runner like a ball rolling down a pipe.
Actually the pressure wave is like a slinky toy (spring thing) pulsing back and forth inside the pipe. Timing the bounce and rebound to the rpm to the valve opening is the magic.
Some dual planes like the 289 GT350 and Edelbrock F4B had the corner cylinders long, and the middle 4 cylinders real short...maybe 2.5 inches.
Making half high rpm and half lower rpm for a flatter though lower torque curve.
Thanks. 👍👍😎
That's what I do. The feeling is mutual though Tony. You sir are a hell of a mechanic. I work at a body shop as a collision tech, but also restore and sell muscle cars.
That Torker II you got; I ran one of those on my Dad’s 413 & it was a WONDERFUL intake even for daily driving; everyone told me to run a dual plane & I did... but I put that Torker II back on it the same day because it ran so much better... no joke.
I'm surprised by that, my Fury III felt stronger with the dual plane, especially down low.
Donell Muniz: mines a solid .505 mopar performance purple shaft cam with about 10 to 1 compression & a 650 Edelbrock & 516 heads... change up the combo & who knows what we’ll get 😎
@@loganshotrod4x464 That makes sense, mine has the 274 hydraulic purple cam, 9.5 to 1 speed pros, with a 2000 stall and 3.55s.
Donell Muniz: starting to add up now... I’m running a 4 speed & 4.10’s
DAMMIT Tony, you taught me something again !
You forgot about the Offenhauser manifolds.....maybe save that for another intake video. ;)
Thanks for teaching us.
Great splainer vid UT!
One of the old Direct Connection small block books had specific directions on how to trim down (1/2"?) the divider in the LD-4B and LD-340 manifold, including a notch, and asymmetrical jetting in order to even out the mixture to all 8 cylinders. That was just a little too much voodoo for me, never did it. I can't find those books now, they were paperback, about the thickness of a comic book. But I can't imagine myself tossing them in the trash. I wonder if those are still available, even online in pdf format?
I had a 350 sbc nice street cam and 041 heads with air gap performer rpm intake in a 77 short bed, pulled hard from 45 to 71. Dual planes are hard to beat.
I like single plane intakes because my right foot is always glued to the floor board.
Good explanation!
hey tony, have you covered when to go dual 4 barrel over single 4 barrel? should you ever go dual over single or is it just a cosmetic "looks cool" thing? thanks for all the great free content i have learned tons!
it really has more to do with getting even A/F distribution than MOAR FLOW.......think carburated version of port injection.
When I was 16 I swapped intakes on the cars I owned to see what was quicker,single,duel and stock! But these were stock,once I started having cams/heads done,I left what the builder said was the best aka my buddy,his Dad was a drag racer and engine builder and it took years but passed his knowledge to his son(my buddy) damn it took awhile though! Doesnt take long to swap intakes,a few of them after 1 pass I swapped the intakes back.
Love it man
😎👍
2 part comment. I did bodywork on cars for 20 years, at this point......its easy. Started working on yachts 3 years ago and 40yr veterans are amazed at how good my work is.
Second part. Im building a 455 for my trans am and got an Edlebrock performer intake for it. People say it flows the same as a stock intake and its no good. Then other people say a stock Pontiac intake is just as good as aftermarket. Im not looking for alot of power, just a good street car with a "little" oomf.
Thanks again Tony
The science of yesterdays cars, it blows my mind. Took some very smart, very imaginative people. To create a engine
This is a theory I hope you comment in your knowledge and experience. As I've learned it, you can compare the runners both in and out with organpipes in a church. They are tuned in length to a specific frequenze (tone) and will actually give tree tones; the full sinus tone as the length of the pipe, the one you will hear. Then there is a halfsinus tone one octave up (twice the frequenze) and then one down (half the frequenze) that you can't hear more than as a wider sound. So, a ramchargeintake or headers will work the same way. Tuned to the specific frequenze as for example 4k rpm they have full sinus length. This is very effective in a narrow range around that frequenze. Halfsinus don't give as much boost, but will operate in a wider range. To make an efficient engine you prefer half or quarterwavelength that will give less boost but operates in the most of the rpm's that normally used. The exhaust operates in a similar way, but with longer runners due to the gastemperature.
I'm close to installing my Holley Street Dominator Manifold Single plane.. cause it was given to me and ... why the hell not.. Oi oi oi
@Detective Cazanachas Hahaha.. not what you mean.. but hey, not all things need to be understood.. Oi Punk is life, working class Punk, Street Punk.. Peace Brother
Street dominator and a 2 or 3 inch carb spacer works great on a healthy 340
@@mickymopar thanks for the advice.. no problem with hood clearance ? The manifold is short.. just asking..
@Hey Yo Man I like you a Bunch Now.. Oi to you and Yours.. I'll put together a Oi play list soon, got my Ska, RockSteady and early Reggae one up now.. Boots Stomping since the early 90s.. Peace Brother
I didnt have no problems 70 challenger with a t/a hood
Totally have to respect the body shop guys they have to work their asses off to make things happen.
I gave 👍up as soon as you cleared your table 😂👏👏
UTG--I like the vids. Been watching since the start up. The carb tech info was GREAT. It seems to me the only ones that thought this explanation was good, were the ones that Already Knew. I think I would have gotten more from this vid if Uncle Kathy was explaining this subject. I take it that a Dual Plane would be better for my 351W '84 Fox?
Really appreciate your sharing of knowledge. I love old school rodding. You clearly know your shit. ;) thanks so much.
Back in the late 90's I had tested about every intake short of a tunnel ram on a hot 350 with a 4 speed, always went back to an early 70's Eddy tm-1..And still on it to this day
TM-6 (precursor to the Torker 383) is still a great 383/400 intake; TM-7 or "Tarantula" is still great on a 413-426W-440. Old stuff doesn't always suck.
Well said Uncle Tony.
Tony,
Looks like progress on the Dart....it's gonna look great. Weeee waaant Rain.....no I mean Slant 6, weee waaant slant 6.
Thanks UT.. thats good info.. i do have a question sometime when your not too busy.. because I know the exhaust plays a part in the same role as far as "pulling" the exhaust out and "pulling" the fuel/air mix in during overlap.. but an old geared told me that just because you found the perfect intake for your engine, does not mean it will still be the perfect one after changing the exhaust.. theres a "sweet spot" where the two need to meet each other to maximize performance, and come into harmony. I dont remember it too well though tbh. I was only about 15. If you could go into depth there sometime I would greatly appreciate it..
When I'm in the market for a new car, I'm getting a car like Tony's.
Great stuff uncle Tony! Now explain the plus/minus of carb spacers, please?!?
im sure you scored some serious points with all bodymen and painters with that salute Tony... are the words you're looking for "volumetric-efficiency?"..intake manifold WTF?.. back here in the hills the best oldtimers still call them "centerheads."....haha but nolol.
Keep feathering it brotherman 🐔
I have a sbc built up smoggers and decent Howard cam and I had an old Eddy original Torker intake and a 2" spacer dread bore adapter and surprising to me it jams it has great torque right off the bottom in a 92 c1500 with 3:08 gears...! I didn expect it., Mash the throttle off idle and it will light the tires. Even with the stock converter I had to put back in temporary my built trans with 2500 stall failed after 8 years
Thanks, here here in Australia i only have had 351 Clevelands for last 35 years have stuffed around with spacers and drilling out 4 hole manifolds to 2 i always thought it was just about how much flow and heat retention the fuel was getting never even heard about pulse rpm and runner length,,excellent imfo only have f100s so low rpm high torque is all i,m after, thanks
Personally I blame squirrels
Them bushy tailed rats!
@Hey Yo you talking about Squirrel, the guy who almost took out Dominator from Street Outlaws when he bounced off both walls?
yogurt77 👉🏻🐿
@@unclesquirrel6951 I'm sorry, idk what that means. I'm a little old and a little stupid.
yogurt77 👉🏻🐿= ..... ( 👉🏻🐿) 😎
Tony, you would love , "The Scientific Design of Exhaust and Intake Systems" by Philip H. Smith. It's way over the heads of most your followers but it would help you relay the pulsating waves of pressure occuring w different designs of manifolds.
I've been running an original torker with a 2" tall spread bore adapter on a mild 355 for years in cars and trucks an it's works rock solid good low rpm Tq especially for an open pleanum. I ran a modded 800 Qjet it made good HP but the idle circuit never liked the intake/cam combo it always ran super rich down low. A buddy gave me a old cheap 1406 600 Eddy and no it doesn't have the top end pull but drivability and mpg sky rocketed.
Coming from a guy with higher than average intake manifold specific knowledge, nice video, great explanation. Check out David Vizard's "super tuning Holley" tech book. He's got some interesting information regarding modern aftermarket intake manifold designs for carburetor applications. When you said "am I explaining this right?" I actually said out loud "YES" 😂😂
Love 'ya man :) Comprende on the body work.
I used to have a chevy 2.8 tbi motor, they had the worst factory intake ever made. I adapted an Edelbrock carb intake to the tbi unit. It was a dual plane intake and it with my homemade tbi adapter, it was 100% separated from bank to bank. It had great throttle response for an engine of that size but hit a brick wall at 3500. I ended up cutting the center out of the adapter and it would march up to 5000 with no problems. Those 2.8s had a 123456 firing order from bank to bank.
Just a question/episode idea a 6 Pack or dual quad or single 4 barrel ? Which setup is better for street strip and which is the best for fuel efficiency ?
Just a idea. great video on the dual and single planes been wanting a simplification of them
Also on a side note I got my first mopar a few weeks ago it’s a 69 Roadrunner Post car 383HiPerf 727 car originally the R4 Barracuda Orange/High Performance Red.