As a Master Boot Fitter at a shop in Colorado that is very busy all year long, I find these panels very interesting. I helped with the prototype testing on Alpine BOA Ski Boots, and during that time I learned that the closure system isn't for everyone. When customers go see a real boot fitter they aren't going to throw everybody in a BOA "Multi-lasted" or cookable shell ski boot just to sell a boot. They will sell you a boot that fits you the best right out of the box whether you are looking for a race fit, performance fit, comfort fit. When we do throw people in BOA boots, they will be in the middle of the range when we dial people in. I have done boot fits where I won't even bring out a single BOA Boot because it wont be the right fit and most of the time people understand. I love my 2 pairs of BOA ski boots I have, but sometimes I go back to my new 2025 Mach1 LV 130, or my Cabrio Free LV 130. Like they said, BOA is a solution for fit. My store has sold a ton of BOA boots, and not a single boot has come in to replace the cable or the dial (knock on wood). However every snowboard boot that has come back into my store for BOA cable repairs for the past 2 seasons has been from people resting their boards on their boot when they are on the lift and the edge of the board cutting into the cable. Most of my customers are noticing the new boots are lighter than their old boots. I am all for light weight but keep the boots strong and the liners strong enough to last a decent amount of time. I received a Dalbello Cabrio Free LV 130 this year among other ski boots that I own and it skis well. But after 6-7 ski days I upgraded the liner to an intuition Pro Tour Liner, due to the fast pack out in a lightweight liner.
Based on what you say about snowboard Boa failures, I wonder how Boa will hold up to people like mogul skiers who tend to have lots of "edge into opposite boot" action? Looking at the designs of the current crop of boots the cable routing is mostly over the top of the boot, and that shouldn't get hit most of the time, but I've seen plenty of skiers with obvious scars on their similarly-placed lower buckles.
I ski in Atomic Redster 150 WC skiboots. I've bought the Professional liners as an upgrade to the Mimic liners which is basically a Mimic liner with some extra foam injection thrown in for customization. I would like to have a 26.75 boot, but that is not made. I'm at the age where I'm not going to be able ski all day long if I have a 26/26.5 shell, as I don't want to deal with the pain and foot cramping, so I have a 27/27.5 shell.. What I did was to go the usual foam pads route as I have a LV foot. What I also did was make small plastic bags that use a homemade concoction that is similar to the cork paste that ZipFit uses. I have those in the 8 mil plastic bags that fit the Achilles tendon area on the sides of the heel that go up to the calf. Atomic also sells a reducer cuff that they sell for us chicken leg types. When I get close to the ideal foot fitting, I use Gorilla tape to permanently affix them to the liner, but keep a small area of the plastic bag exposed so I can later remove or add some paste. I get a great fit that looks pretty good. However, I cant get the boots on easily by tying the laces on the liner and then step into the shells. Using a hair dryer to soften the shells and then putting my feet in the liner that is in the shell works. Another tip is to buy Teflon tape that is sticky on one side and put strips on the shell. Then whether you try to put your liners into the shell by stepping in or pressing the liners in by themselves, the liners go in much easier. What I might try next when my liners wear out is to use dense silicone rubber liquid that is used to make molds. You can buy two liquids that are mixed together and the drying time and firmness are specified. You then use the combined liquids with a plastic bag that you put between shells and liners and then wait for the liquid to coagulate. You can then take the silicone rubber out of the plastic bags (coat the plastic bags with release oil) and then decide how to attach them to your liners. You can also get the silicon liquid as a putty that you knead two putties together place them in your shells and wait until it sets up. Take the hardened putty and decide how to affix it to the liners or possibly the shells. The last moldable option is to use a heat moldable (Versimold) silicon rubber that is heat activated. I find the Versimold putty is pretty dense and stiff if you want a really firm liner. My point to readers is that if you really want ski boot performance is to hire a bootfitter or figure something out yourselves. Bootfitters have more knowledge than I will ever have, but I'm the stubborn engineer/DIY type that tries to reinvent the wheel.
Most snowboard boots use an internal lace system to hold the heel independently from the toe/cuff tightness. Sounds like the ridge is doing something similar, which sounds good to me. I think there are a lot of foot shapes that benefit from a "ankle only" fit adjustment, rather than a traditional wrap adjustment
The inescapability of the Boa debate makes a lot of sense. Ski boots have barely changed at all, and making dramatic changes to boot design is incredibly expensive, and differences between boots is so personal that making general comparisons is really hard to do. Adding Boa allows for minimal R&D costs and quite salient, easily-marketable differences that anyone could understand because literally some of the same boots come with and without Boa. It's a perfect scenario for all ski gear media coverage and consumers to focus excessively on this one design change. Greg made the most convincing point in the whole Boa debate though. The cost of R&D and sourcing a new closure mechanism has not done much to improve boot fit, and it is not even the lowest hanging fruit, which would be the liners. So many stock liners are so bad and pack out so quickly. Zipfit has clearly exerted some pressure on the market, and I don't know what the full retail landscape is, but Kastle's entry into the boot market came with great liners. I don't fully buy that it will never happen when consumers would be able to buy a shell on its own. At the very least, online/distributed retailers like Evo should be able to make those orders for standalone shells, especially as more people start to get their hands on liners that last longer than their shells, which should be a growing population as long as people need to go to standalone liner brands like Zipfit when their crappy stock liners irreversibly pack out before their shells fall apart. Even if liners failed at the same time as shells from a designed obsolescence perspective, boot shells get damaged from crashes, and people would gladly take a discount on next year's boot if they can take their old liner to a new shell (even if the liner is actually toast).
Thoughts on mechanical flex adjustment vs shell deformation? I think to a certain extent we're seeing it on the Lange Shadow. With mechanical suspension most of the flex/ stiffness would depend on the mechanical connection between cuff and shell. All boots in a given line would be constructed the same other than size. Install springs and dampeners for specific flex/stiffness.
it adds too much expense. Lange didn't have to design the shadow, they just did it to push boots forwards. They're spending more money to make shadows than old Rx's. Other brands dont have that passion
i've been skiing the shadow all year, considering going back to old boot. it was exciting at first, and then i realized it's still really affected by temps like all boots.
Ski boot companies need to make the same shell/liner/fit continuously over time because when you find a boot and customize it to fit you who needs to keep searching because these boot companies make so called improvements, just leave it if it's functional. You would think after decades like Lange for ex. nothing much changed vs. Tecnica which completely changed volumes decades ago and then never brought back what really worked well and fit well. Also the women's shell needs to go back to regular height, not short cuff, all women dont have short fat legs, we are tall and slim and need tall cuff boots that hit the shin in the right spot and won't destroy our shins. we used to get men's boots and they were great, but most men's start at size 24 and we need 22 and 23 mondo in a boot, 1 step below the race plug which isn't really needed and can be torture to fit.
ROFL when Greg said the Ridge as "sounded like a rear-entry touring boot". Also, who needs fancy liners when you can just mold the plastic a little thicker and have the bootfitter grind it out to fit your foot perfectly? AmIright? Sticking with the "welcome fit" analogy, It's just like those hilariously inaccurate old-timey "mirror-imaged" diagrams of female anatomy, except for realsies! (for the record, I run ZipFit Corsa 92s in my plugs) My favorite "crazy athlete footbed story" is Tyler Curle's (I think) use of stacked-up layers of cardboard, preferably scavenged from a dumpster the night before the comp. I can't remember if I heard that in a Blister podcast. Maybe?
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As a Master Boot Fitter at a shop in Colorado that is very busy all year long, I find these panels very interesting. I helped with the prototype testing on Alpine BOA Ski Boots, and during that time I learned that the closure system isn't for everyone. When customers go see a real boot fitter they aren't going to throw everybody in a BOA "Multi-lasted" or cookable shell ski boot just to sell a boot. They will sell you a boot that fits you the best right out of the box whether you are looking for a race fit, performance fit, comfort fit.
When we do throw people in BOA boots, they will be in the middle of the range when we dial people in. I have done boot fits where I won't even bring out a single BOA Boot because it wont be the right fit and most of the time people understand. I love my 2 pairs of BOA ski boots I have, but sometimes I go back to my new 2025 Mach1 LV 130, or my Cabrio Free LV 130. Like they said, BOA is a solution for fit.
My store has sold a ton of BOA boots, and not a single boot has come in to replace the cable or the dial (knock on wood). However every snowboard boot that has come back into my store for BOA cable repairs for the past 2 seasons has been from people resting their boards on their boot when they are on the lift and the edge of the board cutting into the cable.
Most of my customers are noticing the new boots are lighter than their old boots. I am all for light weight but keep the boots strong and the liners strong enough to last a decent amount of time. I received a Dalbello Cabrio Free LV 130 this year among other ski boots that I own and it skis well. But after 6-7 ski days I upgraded the liner to an intuition Pro Tour Liner, due to the fast pack out in a lightweight liner.
Based on what you say about snowboard Boa failures, I wonder how Boa will hold up to people like mogul skiers who tend to have lots of "edge into opposite boot" action?
Looking at the designs of the current crop of boots the cable routing is mostly over the top of the boot, and that shouldn't get hit most of the time, but I've seen plenty of skiers with obvious scars on their similarly-placed lower buckles.
I ski in Atomic Redster 150 WC skiboots. I've bought the Professional liners as an upgrade to the Mimic liners which is basically a Mimic liner with some extra foam injection thrown in for customization. I would like to have a 26.75 boot, but that is not made. I'm at the age where I'm not going to be able ski all day long if I have a 26/26.5 shell, as I don't want to deal with the pain and foot cramping, so I have a 27/27.5 shell.. What I did was to go the usual foam pads route as I have a LV foot. What I also did was make small plastic bags that use a homemade concoction that is similar to the cork paste that ZipFit uses. I have those in the 8 mil plastic bags that fit the Achilles tendon area on the sides of the heel that go up to the calf. Atomic also sells a reducer cuff that they sell for us chicken leg types. When I get close to the ideal foot fitting, I use Gorilla tape to permanently affix them to the liner, but keep a small area of the plastic bag exposed so I can later remove or add some paste. I get a great fit that looks pretty good. However, I cant get the boots on easily by tying the laces on the liner and then step into the shells. Using a hair dryer to soften the shells and then putting my feet in the liner that is in the shell works. Another tip is to buy Teflon tape that is sticky on one side and put strips on the shell. Then whether you try to put your liners into the shell by stepping in or pressing the liners in by themselves, the liners go in much easier.
What I might try next when my liners wear out is to use dense silicone rubber liquid that is used to make molds. You can buy two liquids that are mixed together and the drying time and firmness are specified. You then use the combined liquids with a plastic bag that you put between shells and liners and then wait for the liquid to coagulate. You can then take the silicone rubber out of the plastic bags (coat the plastic bags with release oil) and then decide how to attach them to your liners. You can also get the silicon liquid as a putty that you knead two putties together place them in your shells and wait until it sets up. Take the hardened putty and decide how to affix it to the liners or possibly the shells.
The last moldable option is to use a heat moldable (Versimold) silicon rubber that is heat activated. I find the Versimold putty is pretty dense and stiff if you want a really firm liner.
My point to readers is that if you really want ski boot performance is to hire a bootfitter or figure something out yourselves. Bootfitters have more knowledge than I will ever have, but I'm the stubborn engineer/DIY type that tries to reinvent the wheel.
Most snowboard boots use an internal lace system to hold the heel independently from the toe/cuff tightness. Sounds like the ridge is doing something similar, which sounds good to me.
I think there are a lot of foot shapes that benefit from a "ankle only" fit adjustment, rather than a traditional wrap adjustment
The inescapability of the Boa debate makes a lot of sense. Ski boots have barely changed at all, and making dramatic changes to boot design is incredibly expensive, and differences between boots is so personal that making general comparisons is really hard to do. Adding Boa allows for minimal R&D costs and quite salient, easily-marketable differences that anyone could understand because literally some of the same boots come with and without Boa. It's a perfect scenario for all ski gear media coverage and consumers to focus excessively on this one design change. Greg made the most convincing point in the whole Boa debate though. The cost of R&D and sourcing a new closure mechanism has not done much to improve boot fit, and it is not even the lowest hanging fruit, which would be the liners.
So many stock liners are so bad and pack out so quickly. Zipfit has clearly exerted some pressure on the market, and I don't know what the full retail landscape is, but Kastle's entry into the boot market came with great liners. I don't fully buy that it will never happen when consumers would be able to buy a shell on its own. At the very least, online/distributed retailers like Evo should be able to make those orders for standalone shells, especially as more people start to get their hands on liners that last longer than their shells, which should be a growing population as long as people need to go to standalone liner brands like Zipfit when their crappy stock liners irreversibly pack out before their shells fall apart. Even if liners failed at the same time as shells from a designed obsolescence perspective, boot shells get damaged from crashes, and people would gladly take a discount on next year's boot if they can take their old liner to a new shell (even if the liner is actually toast).
Thoughts on mechanical flex adjustment vs shell deformation? I think to a certain extent we're seeing it on the Lange Shadow.
With mechanical suspension most of the flex/ stiffness would depend on the mechanical connection between cuff and shell. All boots in a given line would be constructed the same other than size. Install springs and dampeners for specific flex/stiffness.
it adds too much expense. Lange didn't have to design the shadow, they just did it to push boots forwards. They're spending more money to make shadows than old Rx's. Other brands dont have that passion
i've been skiing the shadow all year, considering going back to old boot. it was exciting at first, and then i realized it's still really affected by temps like all boots.
Ski boot companies need to make the same shell/liner/fit continuously over time because when you find a boot and customize it to fit you who needs to keep searching because these boot companies make so called improvements, just leave it if it's functional. You would think after decades like Lange for ex. nothing much changed vs. Tecnica which completely changed volumes decades ago and then never brought back what really worked well and fit well. Also the women's shell needs to go back to regular height, not short cuff, all women dont have short fat legs, we are tall and slim and need tall cuff boots that hit the shin in the right spot and won't destroy our shins. we used to get men's boots and they were great, but most men's start at size 24 and we need 22 and 23 mondo in a boot, 1 step below the race plug which isn't really needed and can be torture to fit.
ROFL when Greg said the Ridge as "sounded like a rear-entry touring boot".
Also, who needs fancy liners when you can just mold the plastic a little thicker and have the bootfitter grind it out to fit your foot perfectly? AmIright? Sticking with the "welcome fit" analogy, It's just like those hilariously inaccurate old-timey "mirror-imaged" diagrams of female anatomy, except for realsies! (for the record, I run ZipFit Corsa 92s in my plugs)
My favorite "crazy athlete footbed story" is Tyler Curle's (I think) use of stacked-up layers of cardboard, preferably scavenged from a dumpster the night before the comp. I can't remember if I heard that in a Blister podcast. Maybe?
Can i get this seasons Hawx ultra xtd with buckles at a discount?
I think you can even get the boa version with a discount though. I got mine at 40% off. Check it out with your local shops
Zipfit rep at 54:45?
Yep that’s Jeff