I never pay full price for anything. My wallet matters more than anyone or anything else in this world. I'll always wait for sale prices on M2 games and games from any other dev. That's how the rich stay rich.. bitch🤣
You know me... I even gave the Psikyo ports a pass with caveats as it at least matched the performance of the Dreamcast ports at 6-7 frames. I called it okay for casual play but likely not for anyone serious. But dang at 11 we have to say something. I posted in community and on my other social media too to let people know. We can’t reward devs for this kind of release and I’ll resell my copy online to recoup the cost once it arrives. I was already expecting 6-8 since the actual Saturn games are just below those numbers. The original games have more inherent lag. They just added an extra 5-6 on top with the emulation. A mini console has an excuse it’s a cheap processor in a $99 device, but even those are 6-8 frames. 10+ is just wow.
Yeah no kidding!! Yeah I got 6 frames on mednafen so the Saturn version is in the 6 frame ballpark like you said, but in that case you d actually hope to see the dev roll up their sleeves and improve the bad input lag, not double it ha. M2 actually lowered garegga s lag compared to the pcb and that s a lot trickier to shave 4 down to 3 then at least maintaining a 5-6 frame range of lag. Shame too because cotton 2 is awesome, the throw mechanic is really cool.
6-8 would have been acceptable. That would have been the standard Saturn version lag + one frame of Switch lag. Not good but understandable. 11 frames is just insane.
The Saturn to 360 ports of 10 years ago didn't carry so much added lag but they were recompiled rather than emulated. That should be the way to go for modern ports of Saturn games even in 2021, especially on underpowered machines.
For those watching this now: City Connection announced a patch that will fix the input lag issues with both the Cotton and Guardian Force Saturn Tributes. Great to see them respond positively to the criticism from this collection. It was apparently released on February iirc. I hope City Connection will learn from their mistakes with the upcoming Taito Saturn Tributes. City Connection at least acknowledged the issue unlike Sega where they didn't bother to fix the input lag on the Genesis collection at all
It's such a shame :( One of the games I looked forward the most this year. I'm just glad that I could cancel my order in time as soon as people mentioned it in the Discord. This does not look good for the upcoming Deathsmiles collection... Oh well, at least there is hope for rock and roll.
On Playasia: "Notice of input lag: - City Connection plans to update the title to improve the input lag. - Schedule for the update to be announced later."
like i said in another post just need to be patient a little bit, I will receive my copy not before end of december because I ordered this game with deathsmiles too so the patch will be probably here it's perfect.
The Switch really isn't fast enough to emulate the Saturn accurately. It actually takes a lot of CPU if you do it right. A Steam Deck with Mednafen is going to be 10x better than this crap and cost exactly 0 dollars.
@@JGrove303 I doubt the original game was written in C. Rewriting it would cost more money than a niche game like this will make in sales. There's a reason they just used a crappy emulator.
"well well well city connection strike again..." love the tone and attitude of the video. your justified disdain towards city connection and its track record is funny and sad at the same time. but yeah im pretty bummed about this release because cotton reboot got me into shmups and the cotton series a few months ago. 10-11 frames is actually insane.
Yes and I m very nervous for their upcoming deathsmiles release! Let's just hope they copy and paste the steam version without adding 9 more frames of lag
@@TheElectricUnderground My guess is it'll either be exactly the same as the 360, with no improvements, or it'll be the 360 port with 4+ additional frames of input delay. :/ Just my educated guess based on what a shit job CC do at porting games.
What an absolute shame, specially after the excellent Cotton Reboot. I found the Psykio collections to be not ideal but still perfectly playable after some moments of adjustment, 11 frames of input lag tho... that's probably one of, if not the, worst Shmup port i've ever heard of.
I was given the choice of either a Saturn or a PS as a christmas gift back in the day. Chose the Saturn after playing it at a single friend's house (the only guy who had one). My father gave me shit for it (still to this day actually; all my other friends had PS1 and borrowed games from one another) but never regretted it once. I'm VERY happy with that choice and (by extension) getting all of these imports before the prices went nuts (same with PCBs). Saturn emulation still not being decent is a serious bummer; the prices I'm seeing currently on the fun older games an even bigger one. Idgaf about it being piracy. Most of it won't be re-released. These games should be playable for future generations. Imagine not being able to look at photos from 50 years ago due to "eye updates" or whatever. This is history and it's being disrespected... Pisses me off.💢
Yeah Saturn ended up being the winner in the long run 🏆! As for playing the game on Saturn, yes I have a jailbroken Saturn and that s the way I plan to play cotton 2 ha
@@TheElectricUnderground It really won. A modded PS2 with backwards compability gives it a good run for the money but the PS1 no chance. Same but once the laser goes won't know what to do... Hope emulators will be up to speed by then.👍
For those who would like to play Cotton 2, Cotton Boomerang, and Guardian Force on original hardware but don’t want to pay $200+ for them, definitely look into picking up a Fenrir, MODE, Satiator, or a pseudo Saturn Kai cartridge. In 2021, there is no need to pay that much per game anymore. With any of these solutions (Ranging from $30-$230), you can play all three of these games, and the rest of the Saturn library. We talk about these solutions on our own channel in detail, but the point of this comment is to show you don’t need to pay hundreds per game anymore to play on original hardware in the best conditions, especially for speedrunners and 1CC players.
I actually don’t mind the input lag so much on the psikyo collections, maybe because I just play them for fun, but i hope the issue with the cotton collection can be fixed via an update? Hopefully?
Man... I'm so gutted. Got it in the post should get it tomorrow. I thought with the Cotton Reboot being so good this would be a total win. I don't agree with this the developers might patch it. Games that have been around for years could and should be released in an even better form than before. Also have the zombie tengu games from city connection pre-ordered and paid for. Deathsmiles is gonna be a steaming turd. Have you seen what happens to your score in Deathsmiles for the switch? The developers say they encountered a bug that displays the last 3 digits as xxx.
Reboot was great! They completely recoded the X68000 version for the port! CIty connection just threw these roms on an emulator then added a bunch of bullshit on top to make it run even worse... no care or passion with those guys....
Oh no that sucks :-( also I did not see that issue with the deathsmiles port but I promise I am going to be looking very carefully at that port when it comes out, since deathsmiles is already pretty excellent on steam and 360, the PS4 port must be excellent which isn't super likely at this point
@@sbanner428 yeah it sucks. I've barely touched it since i got it. I don't notice the input delay on the Psikyo switch ports but on this one unfortunately I do.
@JungleBubble yeah i read tbeir statement but the issue comes from the decade old laggy SSF emulator they threw the ROM on. I have no hope for it to be fixed but i would love to be surprised.
Definitely a BIG issue for the non-casual players who want to play these games seriously... 10~11 frames of input lag is terrible. Let's hope City Connection fixes this kind of issue before releasing the upcoming Deathsmiles I & II on NSW....
I bought all 3 games in the collection and I can confirm the lag is alarming. Like REALLY bad. I'm gutted because I was looking forward to these but they are absolutely unplayable. I'm also gutted to think that the Deathsmiles collection coming by them will also be the same.
@@TheElectricUnderground Is that likely for them to do that? I know Cave's games but I know little about them behind the scenes. I pray they actually care about their IP's enough to ensure the game is playable.
My god, that's input lag even I'd get annoyed at; my gut was telling me to wait for detailed reviews, your heads up is greatly appreciated--keep up the good work 👍
@@TheElectricUnderground I've already saved one poor soul from wasting his money, lol. I love shmups getting this resurgence, but this is obviously a cash grab off the back of Cotton reboot. Thanks again dude!👍
So is every other outlet that reviews games exclusively for Nintendo. At least it seems that way. The reviews for the 2 old Bloodrayne games on the Switch over at a certain other relatively big TH-cam channel are borderline farcical. These two games were mediocre at best when they worked as intended 20 years ago, but the ports we have today are actually flat out broken. So broken the story of the second game becomes incomprehensible because entire cut scenes are missing. Then there's the framerate which can drop into the teens when certain effects are on screen. This should be unacceptable for a 20 year old PS2 game, but instead it's apparently good enough for a 7/10. Wtf?
The input lag you felt even on your emulator is probably because the two ST-V Cotton games already have "input lag" on original hardware, whether you play on Saturn or ST-V. The two games are not very responsive but are balanced with this is mind. (I don’t know if I am projecting excuses but I have always "accepted" that I was controlling Cotton steering the broom, rather than the broom itself, justifying the delayed motion.) So the seemingly unbelievable lag attained in the new official port might be a compounding of the original game’s lag + real emulation issues. Just a theory.
I got my physical copy of this yesterday and can confirm the lag is real, but for some reason (probably because I’m not the best at shmups) I still had some fun with Cotton 2. Got through the third stage and thought that maybe I was just dying a lot because I’m bad. lol
I have a preorder of deathsmiles already paid and im worried about having the same issue with this game 🤦🏻♂️. Im over with preorders at this point, just will wait until the games are out and buy it digital after seeing and honest review, im tired of felling scammed one way or another by publishers
Absolutely! Yeah I think in order for pre orders to be a fair system the publishers should be willing to refund if the game is bad, otherwise they have no incentive to fix the problems later on
@@TheElectricUnderground Playasia refunded my deathsmiles and cotton preorder, i will avoid city conection in the future, i dont care wich license they buy, they show they dont care in multiple situations so fuck them
Mark is 100% right. I have the PS4 version and knew something was wrong immediately. It took me many tries to even finish Guardian Force, which isn’t that difficult and I imagine I could do in 3 or 4 credits. It took me all 10 credits and beat it on my last life. So I died 29 times and at least 20 of those were special attacks not coming out in time. Also, I got a blue error screen when beating the last boss if Cotton 2, not once, but TWICE! I switched it to Saturn mode in the options and I beat that. So as is, the Arcade mode of Cotton 2 maybe cannot be completed. I really hope for a patch. Otherwise I won’t touch it again. Stay away from this one.
It s a real shame too because cotton 2 is really fun on the og system, yeah even trying to gather b roll on the release was too annoying so I played it via emulator instead
Really thanks . I was fooled with psykio port , no more now. I was waiting your advice and shmup on switch . Always see your test before buying because of lag mention
Yeah same here, super nervous with what will happen to deathsmiles. It should be easy to port over, but city connection don t seem to have any quality control. Let s just hope Ikeda stops by their office before release ha
There is actually an input lag notice in playasia's listing, saying that it will be updated. Notice of input lag: - City Connection plans to update the title to improve the input lag. - Schedule for the update to be announced later.
omg received my copy from play asia today and was super excited to play it! After starting the game i noticed the ridiculous lag and looked it up online. Found your video and i just wish i had done so before ordering this collection. I hope they somehow patch it because i'm stuck with this garbage now....fml
The Scanline setting has been added. Access the Scanline setting by going to Screen Setting -> Scanline. ・A setting to speed up loading has been added. The setting can be configured in Extra Option -> Fast Loading. ・Added a new feature to Cotton 2 and Guardian Force that allows you to set unlimited continues, which was previously only available in the main game of Cotton Boomerang. This can be set in Extra Option -> Credit. ・The input delay has been improved. ・Other minor bugs have been fixed. This was all that was fixed or added
I was on Playasia this weekend thinking about buying this and I'm so glad I came across your video. I will be avoiding this one which is a shame. I was going to have it sit right next to my Cotton Reboot game.
thanks for the honest review. in a genre so defined by control and response, this really is unacceptable and can only be viewed as a cash grab that tarnishes the legacy of classic saturn games. many people will have no idea that this isn't how the game was, and that is a damn shame.
So disappointing. I got guardian force and found the imput lag to be far too much so I've since not bothered with the cotton titles associated with this collection. Fuck City connection, praise M2!
it is ha, playing the heavy is not as fun as it may seem ha. But I do think it's important. Ideally it would be great if devs were aware that the electric underground is out here, prepared to pounce on input lag. ha.
Thanks for focussing on input lag. For that alone I am now subsribing to your channel. Nobody should buy this. I hope they sell 0 copies! Agreed 100% with you
This is really unfortunate. I was excited to finally get into this series with this release and saw it at my local game store, but passed on it initially bc I wanted to wait until reviews/analysis of the ports were done. 11 frames of input lag is unacceptable both from a gameplay and preservation perspective imo. Thank you for the information :)
No problem! Glad you waited before buying, sadly that seems to be the state of things when it comes to shmup ports (other then m2 so far) where you want to hang on and make sure they are accurate and don't have lag problems
Didn't bother with the 2 Cotton games, but I did get Guardian Force on PS5. They pushed an update shortly after I started playing it on day of release. I can't be sure if it's because it's on PS5, but I'm not noticing anything crazy lag-wise. It feels/plays much like Cotton Reboot (nothing crazy just slight ice skating). My main problem is the marketing. I went straight ahead and bought PSN credit to purchase from the Japanese PSN, so I paid well over the odds for a game that was available from my own region. Not the first time this has happened, I was caught with Mushihimesama in the same way.
This is disturbingly disappointing. Really wanted these games. Sucks cuz it leaves me no hope for the deathsmiles collection. I don’t get why they didn’t get the same developers that did cotton reboot!
You know what make this collection even sillier? Cotton Reboot. So it isn't just "oh the Switch is underpowered" (which shouldn't be an excuse anyway when the Switch is several times more powerful than the Saturn) as there is another Cotton game as a direct comparison. And before people complain that such input lag doesn't matter, remember that Cotton is a shoot-em-up ; like with fighting games, input lag has a very real, and deeply damaging effect. This is the kind of game that absolutely need a 60 FPS frame rate and no input lag to play smoothly. Really shows that one should make research on ports before buying them. Also, I wouldn't hold my breath regarding the devs "patching it up".
There was only two Saturn ports on 360, Radiant Silvergun, and Guardian Heroes. Radiant was recompiled as it's definitely not the original port. Guardian Heroes is pretty much the exact same as the home release. The basic input I notice on Guardian Force was with the turning of the turret, and when activating the bomb when playing from my live stream. Cotton Boomerang was the worst as I was not able to chain at all when grabbing the enemy also avoiding bullets the input lag made it worse. ST-V emulation is not perfect, and I'm afraid it will never be. So Guardian Force/Cotton 2/Boomerang are still ST-V games cut down to run on the Saturn. I didn't realize it was City Connection then I might have thought twice. However I'm not going to spend $600 plus so I can just avoid input lag. Also if you were to buy these games for the original system you probably are still going to get lag running on a modern TV unless you have a CRT or conversion to use HDMI thru the same CRT or a low input lag monitor. I'm glad everybody is into input lag that's the thing now but from what I know about the ST-V/Saturn programmed games in general it's a difficult task. Should you buy it? Yes and No. I did and not sorry. $37 and some input lag is better than $600+ and an expensive set up to just post bragging rights. No knocking the whole frame debate but we know it was gonna happen. I knew it would happen. I think with Radiant Silvergun for 360 there was a lot of time spent on the port. Also to boot the Switch is not underpowered for 2D gaming but it's hampered by two things, it has to run on both portable and then translate to another signal thru a dock to a TV. You have to factor in two different input timing programs while on PS4 it only requires one because it's a static console. Not giving City Connection a pass but how many actual ST-V/Saturn games are in existence on modern consoles. Yes, if you play this on a 4K TV it's awful, it was more doable on my Samsung monitor I use when streaming. I will hit up City Connections twitter but I'm keeping it. IF you start that class-action lawsuit lemme know.
I agree with a bunch of things you said, but you state a couple misconceptions. Sega Saturn and Sega ST-V hardware are essentially identicle. No performance differences in any way as I understand. The only differcnce is that the Saturn uses CD-Roms, and the ST-V uses cartidges. So the Saturn ports arent compromised in any way. Lastly its cheaper than you'd think to get a "lag free" expereince. You can buy a japanese Saturn with a controller for less than $150 on eBay, a mod chip for $10, and you can still find CRT's for cheap almost anywhere locally. Just burn each game on a CD, and there you go less than $200. :)
Yeah getting these bad boys to run with low latency is a chore. I'm personally going the jailbroken saturn route with upscaling using the OSSC or just playing it on a crt.
@@novo1858 ST-V and Saturn are not the same. The Saturn is cut down. Perfect example is Groove on Fight. That is an ST-V game that runs horribly on the Saturn even with the RAM expansion. So no it's not the same. None of the ST-V ports are perfect translation but they are close enough that includes the Cotton series. Further more I have a CRT, and modding a Saturn just to get 7 frames back is asinine at best. I'm good with my purchase.
@@TheElectricUnderground Yea I guess unless you like playing around with original hardware it can be a chore. That makes this whole collection all the more upsetting, I was really looking forward to it so that some of my friends who dont have a saturn could finally appreciate them. Well thanks for doing the review and spreading the word Mark. I hope City Connection somehow hears our voices.
@@superroboted There might be one or two examples of an ST-V game having some slight differences like more frames of animation in Groove on Fight, but for almost all the rest of the games between the platforms they are identicle outside of game Version differences and revisions to roms between releases. Just making a blanket statement like all the Saturn games are "cut down" is simply incorrect. And I own an ST-V board and a modded Saturn. Preforming a super easy $10 mod on your saturn to have access to the entire library, and less lag in these particular games is entirely worthwhile.
I'm glad you're honest. Games shouldn't be re-released this way and reviewers shouldn't be giving better scores in anticipation of a patched version that they haven't played yet. You're doing the right thing.
I'm glad you feel that way my dude. I think in this case this is especially true because I'm not sure how much patching is going to be able to fix this, honestly they might not be able to do much about it without just re-doing the game completely.
It's very impressive that it can run a Sega Saturn emulator on an under powered hybrid system like switch, because al lot of modern PCs are struggling with that. And about the "Input Lag", the emulation is running on the Zebra engine, which is the fork of SSF Emulator which can be fixed by some patches, and I think modders and developers are already working on it. Some modders even tried to inject Sega Saturn roms on the game data and most of the games are running flawlessly so if they buy the game it's a free Saturn Emulator for modded Switch devices. "DO NOT BUY!" and "Class Action Lawsuit" is too much for this product. You should have just researched it a lot more, you're discouraging the developers.
I don t agree at all. I don t think it s right to review a faulty product and give it a pass based off the hope that the devs will fix it in the future. I did do my research and 11 frames of lag is unacceptable. You can sugar coat it but I don t think it s impressive at all when other releases like cotton reboot run so well and are responsive. So if 11 frames of lag is impressive to you exactly how broken does the port need to be before you d give it a negative review? Or would you just always recommend it on the hope the dev will fix all the problems someday?
@@TheElectricUnderground Dude, Cotton reboot is a completely new game, and Cotton Guardian Force is straight up Sega Saturn emulation. It's running a rom on a ported emulator. So this comparison is meaningless. Cotton Guardian Force even have same input lag on PS4. Because of the same emulator engine. So it is a bug of the zebra engine. I think you may know the difference between the PS4 hardware and the underpowered Nintendo Switch hardware. And it's 2021, You can't expect every game launch a complete bug-free. In now days every software getting a release cycles for fixes, optimizations and additional contents.
This showed up on the Playstation Store but instead of it being a "collection" they are selling each game individually for $17.00 each. I wanted to get these games but now I'm hesitating because I'm nervous about 10 frames of input lag. That's insane!
Public service announcement: Patch dropped last month and is reported to reduce the input lag by around 2-3 frames depending on game and set up. Also a steam release was put out for PC and i dunno about the input lag on that version, but I'm guessing probably still worse than mednafn.
I was considering getting this, but after seeing the video, I decided to use the money towards M2's upcoming Tiger-Heli Collection. Also, I don't know if you already know this, but according to City Connection's president, the upcoming Deathsmiles collection are ports instead of emulation. I'm still kinda worried, though.
They're gonna do a patch playtest session in 4 days on a Tokyo venue. Looks like it's done and they want feedback on it? They posted the notice on the game's website 5 days ago. Let's hope it really is an improvement! I want this collection so bad but 11 frames is too big of a pill to swallow!
don't ever listen to a game reviewer when they say a game isn't worth your time unless it has a game breaking bug in it. make your own mind up by playing the game for yourself cause that's what a true gamer does
It's a shame you think it's unplayable 'cause I've been playing it nonstop since its release and have been really enjoying it. There's definitely a little bit of input lag but it doesn't feel anywhere near 11 frames to me. I'm not saying there isn't 11 frames of lag (I have no way of measuring it and you're way more knowledgable about it than I am) and you're right to warn people about it. But for me personally it hasn't hindered my enjoyment of the collection.
Yeah the input lag for me is just a no go, the delay was just way too much. I will say maybe try launching the game on mednafen or an og Saturn (if you have one) it will feel so much better in comparison
I was thinking about preordering it since I've become big Cotton fan after the Reboot, but that City Connection tho. I've been able to play games with 5&6 frames of input lag, but 11 sounds like hell! Sheesh imagine playing rhythm games with that amount
I BRIEFLY considered getting these before these dropped, but I have a modded Saturn with a MODE installed, so I didn't really need the ports. Super glad I didn't get the compilation now. 10/11 frames is.....gross. Likely due to innate difficulty emulating Saturn and then on top of that adding a Rewind feature, which means they're likely using several instances of that emulation simultaneously
Guardian Force has been removed from the Nintendo Switch eshop. At least the eshop here in Russia. Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang are still available. I wonder whether it's connected to input lag.
What a shame. I'm new to the genre as a whole but the main appeal for me is picking up physical copies of games that have been kinda lost to time or were never released on home consoles. For me there is a game preservation aspect to it all, so even if there was a patch, that does nothing for me. Thanks to both you and Shmupjunkie for saving me some money.
I'll hold off until a future patch at least cuts the lag in half. As for the Saturn version, I don't even have a Saturn yet, let alone the game. The Sega Saturn itself shouldn't be a problem, be it North American or Japanese, and I'm sure an Action Replay RAM cart isn't too pricey, either. But the game itself-- At least the port for today's consoles is affordable. Although, to be frank, I never actually played any of the Cotton games before (mainly because up until recently, very few Cotton games were ever released in North America and in very small quantities, hence their rarities today).
Yeah with city connection I would def recommend a wait and see approach, so beware the deathsmiles port. I m going to cover it as soon as it comes out and I ll not hold back since it s my fav horizontal shmup
11 frames of input lag !!! City Connection is litteraly pissing on their customers, this is a bad joke ! Thank you mate for letting us know, hope they will patch this real soon, how can they release and ask money for that ?
I bought it when it came out and I tried it today when it came in and I played all three games for about 40 minutes to try them out and I tried two levels for each game and overall I really enjoyed playing them. I died several times for two of the games but that's only because the moment was a bullet storm and I don't notice the bullet until it's too late. I could see the buttons being a bit laggy but it's not like I'm playing it on a CRT TV so I expect a little bit, but not enough for me to have trouble. When it comes to movement I felt the analog input to be quick. I don't know if they already did a patch or im an idiot and didn't see the lag, so although I would recommend it because I had fun trying them and can't wait to play more, just in case don't buy it until there is some news of the lag being fixed. I'll make a update on this comment when I try the games again and give my second thoughts. UPDATE: I played them again and to make this short I do notice the delay now, but I think the times where you get hit because of the input being slow will rarely happen. I haven't had it happen to me yet and I still think they are a lot of fun. I hope they still fix this because they can't just release this with this problem.
@@TheElectricUnderground I have played Cotton reboot it's really good and I can say that responses really well. I'll have to check the Saturn Tribute again because hearing the lag problem is really strange for me not to notice. I didn't expect getting a comment from you so I appreciate the reply.
Guess my mistake for not looking into who was making this. Was just so pleased with the Cotton remake that I instantly pre-ordered the game on Amazon Japan. Hopefully the PS4 version runs a bit better.
I’m so angry that I ordered the limited edition. There is NO EXCUSE for this crap in this day and age. City Connections can eat my ass. Even if they latch it the physical is RUINED!! Goddamn it!!
How do you test input lag? Is your TV crap? Do you know how to setup your TV? so many questions you're not thinking about informing your viewers of the answer.
got the info right here! web.archive.org/web/20200119185023/electricunderground.io/input-lag-test-setup/ basically: 60 fps camera light wired to the direction input lagless hdmi to crt converter count the frames off the crt (a lagless display). My tests have been cross checked among other shmup players and youtubers :-)
Yes I am very sure :-) I m testing the lag on a crt which is a lagless display. The Japanese players have also tested the port and reported the same findings. twitter.com/kimagreGaming/status/1444217883953750016
according to the graphic from city connection it's 9.5 frames now, still laggy as hell but probably the best they can do with current port method city-connection.co.jp/cotton/en/topics/
ELEVEN frames??? For reals? For a shmup that's unplayable. At this point it's better to sell off your arm and leg for a Saturn copy of AT LEAST Cotton 2. Or if you don't own a Saturn, emulate it, it might not be great but anything is better than 11 fps of input lag
On the other hand, this collection contains a fully functional Sega Saturn emulator that you can inject games into (on an exploited Switch of course). If I had a Switch, it'd be my Sega Saturn machine after this.
I d be careful about the hype around the emulator, it runs with a lot of input lag, as seen here and tested elsewhere. I d still recommend using mednafen via RetroArch on switch
Switch isn't great for emulated games like this, you are 100% right with your input lag critique. The only good emulated games on Switch come from big companies like Sega, Konami or Capcom and Nintendo's own VC of course.
This sucks! I bought the collectors edition on Switch. Lol. Luckily I own all three games on JP Saturn so I’ll play them there. From now on I need to look at who’s doing the ports. Beep or M2, please!
Ahhh dang my dude! Yeah I'd say be very careful pre-ordering from city connection especially, you never know what they will release whereas m2 seem to have very solid quality control. So if you have deathsmiles pre-ordered, I would strongly advise to cancel the pre-order and wait to see how the release is before you buy.
Gonna be honest as a consumer that doesn't know about stuff like input lag, and stuff like that, my experience without understanding the problems of the game, was I didn't enjoy it for some strange reason, and stopped playing, I played the saturn games, and loved em, for some strange reason didn't like the PS4 ports, and I guess this is why devs take note, I don't like these ports without even having the ability to explain why, that essentially amounts to I hit nearly an immediate brick wall, didn't understand why I didn't like the game, and forgot about it, it's not right to do that to other peoples games, I can't even explain why I didn't like these ports, that doesn't change the fact theres something wrong with them.
My friend schooled me by saying, your game is GUARANTEED at least 6 frames of lag if it has Rewind and FF features. As cool as that feature sound, it seems to always come with the same price.
Not trying to talk crap since I am a fan of the channel, but watching the gameplay - are you aware of the chaining mechanics and special SF-esque inputs? When you kill an enemy with a charged shot they turn into an elemental orb ball and you can try and chain that to the end of the stage... Most fun part of the game for me.
So how could they fix input lag which was actual present on the Saturn alone, then translate to emulation not to actually lose frames. I wouldn't give them a pass but I wanna know what happened during translation. We need to tweet out to them this collection is two much of a deal to just throw away.
Ideally they would roll up their sleeves and rework the code like has been done on previous saturn ports like the 360 silvergun port. I think that's probably the only way to do saturn emulation (at least right now) without creating a bunch of extra lag.
My Disappointment Is Immeasurable And My Day Is Ruined. I was really bummed out when I saw the news about this, it had the potential to be such a solid collection. I heard that EXA have a policy where all games must be 4 frames or less. That is the kind of standard all platform holders should adhere to but sadly never will due to 3D games and laggy flatscreen TVs being the norm. Oh well, money saved I guess.
@@Kain652 exA-Arcadia. They are a company which produces a system designed only for arcades. They are most well known for a policy they have where any game released on it must either be exclusive to the system or, if it is a port, contain features exclusive to the system (like the exA version of Akai Katana).
Imagine buying that collection on Switch out of curiosity and blaming the game due to the ridiculous amount of lag, that would potentially give a *very* bad reputation to the game or even the series itself due to the fact that the developer probably won't bother fixing that issue that never happened in the original Saturn version.
Well, since 1.0.1 is live for all 3 of the Saturn Tribute games, the input lag doesn’t look to be as bad as before so man, this video has now aged poorly
@@AWMonopolyMan aged poorly as in 11 frames of lag to 9? Sorry dude, but it's still incredibly bad input lag, video's criticism is still valid. And due to how the games are emulated, you won't see it go down to a reasonable number ever.
@@h.t.steiner5567 The original point was 11 frames of input lag. But my question is what is the Framerate cap? 20, 30 or 60? Because as I learned, OoT basically is a 20 FPS game but still polls at a full 60, which basically means only 1/3 of say its 11 on NSO input lag counts which is about 4 visual frames of input lag. As another reminder, the actual games that ran on Saturn and ST-V hardware also had bad input lag
dont tell me they are doing deathsmiles 2 as well? Oh man, super extra disappointed now, we cant let a game publisher make a bad name for these incredible games! If they fuck up a Cave port we have to break out the pitchforks! SEND THIS WORK TO M2 FOR GODS SAKE
I wouldn’t be that worried since even Cave had trouble porting their own games accurately to home consoles over the last 2 decades. Perhaps CC could trump them with their forthcoming version of DS 1+2 and pull off a better port than Cave did themselves... Or not.
this is why i have no problem paying full price for M2 releases. they put in the effort and deserve to be rewarded for it. support M2!
Yes exactly, quality over quantity (if that even counts in this case) all the way.
Agreed!
I never pay full price for anything. My wallet matters more than anyone or anything else in this world. I'll always wait for sale prices on M2 games and games from any other dev. That's how the rich stay rich.. bitch🤣
This, they even go a bit extra adding new stuff and improvements that makes the games looks so modern and fresh
Seriously M2 should be the only one trusted with games like this
You know me... I even gave the Psikyo ports a pass with caveats as it at least matched the performance of the Dreamcast ports at 6-7 frames. I called it okay for casual play but likely not for anyone serious. But dang at 11 we have to say something. I posted in community and on my other social media too to let people know. We can’t reward devs for this kind of release and I’ll resell my copy online to recoup the cost once it arrives. I was already expecting 6-8 since the actual Saturn games are just below those numbers. The original games have more inherent lag. They just added an extra 5-6 on top with the emulation. A mini console has an excuse it’s a cheap processor in a $99 device, but even those are 6-8 frames. 10+ is just wow.
Yeah no kidding!! Yeah I got 6 frames on mednafen so the Saturn version is in the 6 frame ballpark like you said, but in that case you d actually hope to see the dev roll up their sleeves and improve the bad input lag, not double it ha. M2 actually lowered garegga s lag compared to the pcb and that s a lot trickier to shave 4 down to 3 then at least maintaining a 5-6 frame range of lag. Shame too because cotton 2 is awesome, the throw mechanic is really cool.
6-8 would have been acceptable. That would have been the standard Saturn version lag + one frame of Switch lag. Not good but understandable. 11 frames is just insane.
The Saturn to 360 ports of 10 years ago didn't carry so much added lag but they were recompiled rather than emulated. That should be the way to go for modern ports of Saturn games even in 2021, especially on underpowered machines.
💯 agreed on that. Yes to do a proper job they either need to recompile or come up with some insane emulation (which seems unlikely at this point)
well lets hope City Connection do better with the Deathsmiles port later this year
Waiting for the Saturn core on MiSTer.
@@ninetendopesaitama2107 Hell yeah!
@@theatlantichoneypotassocia853 does your name mean Russian Spy?
For those watching this now:
City Connection announced a patch that will fix the input lag issues with both the Cotton and Guardian Force Saturn Tributes. Great to see them respond positively to the criticism from this collection. It was apparently released on February iirc. I hope City Connection will learn from their mistakes with the upcoming Taito Saturn Tributes. City Connection at least acknowledged the issue unlike Sega where they didn't bother to fix the input lag on the Genesis collection at all
how's it looking now?
Yeah... an update please !
@@mewjam
It's such a shame :(
One of the games I looked forward the most this year. I'm just glad that I could cancel my order in time as soon as people mentioned it in the Discord.
This does not look good for the upcoming Deathsmiles collection...
Oh well, at least there is hope for rock and roll.
Glad you were able to! Yeah deathsmiles is looking dicey and that s my fav horizontal shmup
On Playasia:
"Notice of input lag:
- City Connection plans to update the title to improve the input lag.
- Schedule for the update to be announced later."
Yes it will be interesting to see what they come up with, if they somehow drastically reduce the lag I will be impressed!
I’m so excited to see that we’ll have a great Saturn emulator this early in the Switch’s life
like i said in another post just need to be patient a little bit, I will receive my copy not before end of december because I ordered this game with deathsmiles too so the patch will be probably here it's perfect.
Nintendo switch is garbage lmaoooooooooo get a steam deck instead hahahaha
@@iglesianichristofanboysand5453 The Steam version has the same problem.
Good news:
Developer knowing this as issue, and now they trying to make patch for it.
So waiting for when it comes is best choice for this moment.
updates?
11 frames?!? That’s pretty gnarly. This isn’t a turn based RPG. Sounds like they weren’t even trying
I'm imagining a shmup rpg now
I think they bit off more then they can chew with this one
The Switch really isn't fast enough to emulate the Saturn accurately. It actually takes a lot of CPU if you do it right.
A Steam Deck with Mednafen is going to be 10x better than this crap and cost exactly 0 dollars.
@@bobsaget9182 Right, which is why the games should have be recompiled to run on Switch hardware
@@JGrove303 I doubt the original game was written in C. Rewriting it would cost more money than a niche game like this will make in sales. There's a reason they just used a crappy emulator.
"well well well city connection strike again..." love the tone and attitude of the video. your justified disdain towards city connection and its track record is funny and sad at the same time. but yeah im pretty bummed about this release because cotton reboot got me into shmups and the cotton series a few months ago. 10-11 frames is actually insane.
Yes and I m very nervous for their upcoming deathsmiles release! Let's just hope they copy and paste the steam version without adding 9 more frames of lag
I'm really scared for death smiles now...
Me too, exactly :-(
This really doesn't make me hopeful for the Deathsmiles I&II port they're handling.
Oh no… *they’re* the ones behind porting it? 😖
I know! It really shouldn't be that hard since it s already on steam and 360, but city connection don't seem to have any quality control
@@Weedwof yup
@@Blueflag04 😫 That’s depressing.
Oh well; my expectations of that port have been extremely reduced now.
@@TheElectricUnderground My guess is it'll either be exactly the same as the 360, with no improvements, or it'll be the 360 port with 4+ additional frames of input delay. :/ Just my educated guess based on what a shit job CC do at porting games.
What an absolute shame, specially after the excellent Cotton Reboot. I found the Psykio collections to be not ideal but still perfectly playable after some moments of adjustment, 11 frames of input lag tho... that's probably one of, if not the, worst Shmup port i've ever heard of.
It takes the cake, I don t even know how they got it so laggy tbh
I was given the choice of either a Saturn or a PS as a christmas gift back in the day. Chose the Saturn after playing it at a single friend's house (the only guy who had one). My father gave me shit for it (still to this day actually; all my other friends had PS1 and borrowed games from one another) but never regretted it once. I'm VERY happy with that choice and (by extension) getting all of these imports before the prices went nuts (same with PCBs). Saturn emulation still not being decent is a serious bummer; the prices I'm seeing currently on the fun older games an even bigger one.
Idgaf about it being piracy. Most of it won't be re-released. These games should be playable for future generations. Imagine not being able to look at photos from 50 years ago due to "eye updates" or whatever. This is history and it's being disrespected... Pisses me off.💢
Yeah Saturn ended up being the winner in the long run 🏆! As for playing the game on Saturn, yes I have a jailbroken Saturn and that s the way I plan to play cotton 2 ha
@@TheElectricUnderground It really won. A modded PS2 with backwards compability gives it a good run for the money but the PS1 no chance.
Same but once the laser goes won't know what to do... Hope emulators will be up to speed by then.👍
@@korvkorv532 Just buy an Optical Drive Emulator for your Saturn when the laser dies.
For those who would like to play Cotton 2, Cotton Boomerang, and Guardian Force on original hardware but don’t want to pay $200+ for them, definitely look into picking up a Fenrir, MODE, Satiator, or a pseudo Saturn Kai cartridge.
In 2021, there is no need to pay that much per game anymore. With any of these solutions (Ranging from $30-$230), you can play all three of these games, and the rest of the Saturn library.
We talk about these solutions on our own channel in detail, but the point of this comment is to show you don’t need to pay hundreds per game anymore to play on original hardware in the best conditions, especially for speedrunners and 1CC players.
We need more honest reviewers in this world.
Thank you.
No problem! And yes I agree ha
I think we already HAVE too many overexaggeratory nitpickers, thanks.
I actually don’t mind the input lag so much on the psikyo collections, maybe because I just play them for fun, but i hope the issue with the cotton collection can be fixed via an update? Hopefully?
It's ok to be a filthy casual lol. Funny how this cotton bit says hold my beer to psikyo being even slower.
11 months later and apparently the patch they generated changed the lag from 11 frames to 9 frames... which could be described as "Why bother?"
'maybe because I just play them for fun'
Late reply, but don't we all?
Man... I'm so gutted. Got it in the post should get it tomorrow. I thought with the Cotton Reboot being so good this would be a total win. I don't agree with this the developers might patch it. Games that have been around for years could and should be released in an even better form than before. Also have the zombie tengu games from city connection pre-ordered and paid for. Deathsmiles is gonna be a steaming turd. Have you seen what happens to your score in Deathsmiles for the switch? The developers say they encountered a bug that displays the last 3 digits as xxx.
Reboot was great! They completely recoded the X68000 version for the port! CIty connection just threw these roms on an emulator then added a bunch of bullshit on top to make it run even worse... no care or passion with those guys....
Oh no that sucks :-( also I did not see that issue with the deathsmiles port but I promise I am going to be looking very carefully at that port when it comes out, since deathsmiles is already pretty excellent on steam and 360, the PS4 port must be excellent which isn't super likely at this point
Is it really as bad as 6-11 frames? Now that you have it.
@@sbanner428 yeah it sucks. I've barely touched it since i got it. I don't notice the input delay on the Psikyo switch ports but on this one unfortunately I do.
@JungleBubble yeah i read tbeir statement but the issue comes from the decade old laggy SSF emulator they threw the ROM on. I have no hope for it to be fixed but i would love to be surprised.
You nailed it. That is the Mark MSX we all know and respect. It was for laughs and you did it. Keep up with game integrity.
Yes 11 frames of lag is so crazy I had to talk about it asap to help viewers save some money.
Definitely a BIG issue for the non-casual players who want to play these games seriously... 10~11 frames of input lag is terrible. Let's hope City Connection fixes this kind of issue before releasing the upcoming Deathsmiles I & II on NSW....
No kidding!!
I bought all 3 games in the collection and I can confirm the lag is alarming. Like REALLY bad. I'm gutted because I was looking forward to these but they are absolutely unplayable. I'm also gutted to think that the Deathsmiles collection coming by them will also be the same.
If the DS collection does this they should lose porting rights
Yeah city connection has lost all credibility to me now. Not buying anything of theirs until its proven to be competent
I know let us all pray Ikeda kicks in the office door at city connection and does some quality control before the release.
@@TheElectricUnderground Is that likely for them to do that? I know Cave's games but I know little about them behind the scenes. I pray they actually care about their IP's enough to ensure the game is playable.
@@nicklong27 I know IKD does
My god, that's input lag even I'd get annoyed at; my gut was telling me to wait for detailed reviews, your heads up is greatly appreciated--keep up the good work 👍
No problem!!! Glad to help sensei!!
this video came out before my input registered
Lul. You re still stuck on the menu
Damn, I almost pre-ordered it a few weeks ago when I preordered the M2 TigerHeli collection. Glad I just got the one. Thanks for saving me the money!
Never, ever, preorder anything.
No problem! I started working on the vid as soon as I heard messages about how laggy it is.
@@TheElectricUnderground I've already saved one poor soul from wasting his money, lol. I love shmups getting this resurgence, but this is obviously a cash grab off the back of Cotton reboot. Thanks again dude!👍
Nintendo life is completely biased. They never have (or very rarely) give negative reviews on anything, even mediocre, overpriced releases.
absolutely!
So is every other outlet that reviews games exclusively for Nintendo. At least it seems that way. The reviews for the 2 old Bloodrayne games on the Switch over at a certain other relatively big TH-cam channel are borderline farcical. These two games were mediocre at best when they worked as intended 20 years ago, but the ports we have today are actually flat out broken. So broken the story of the second game becomes incomprehensible because entire cut scenes are missing. Then there's the framerate which can drop into the teens when certain effects are on screen. This should be unacceptable for a 20 year old PS2 game, but instead it's apparently good enough for a 7/10. Wtf?
The input lag you felt even on your emulator is probably because the two ST-V Cotton games already have "input lag" on original hardware, whether you play on Saturn or ST-V. The two games are not very responsive but are balanced with this is mind.
(I don’t know if I am projecting excuses but I have always "accepted" that I was controlling Cotton steering the broom, rather than the broom itself, justifying the delayed motion.)
So the seemingly unbelievable lag attained in the new official port might be a compounding of the original game’s lag + real emulation issues. Just a theory.
Yes I think you are right. It s an unholy union of input lag
Damn shame. Thanks for the review, will just stick with cotton reboot then.
I got my physical copy of this yesterday and can confirm the lag is real, but for some reason (probably because I’m not the best at shmups) I still had some fun with Cotton 2. Got through the third stage and thought that maybe I was just dying a lot because I’m bad. lol
@@hauntedvoyager7806 no u are bad lol
@@pwnsy584 So, I’m sure the lag didn’t help, then. haha
I have a preorder of deathsmiles already paid and im worried about having the same issue with this game 🤦🏻♂️. Im over with preorders at this point, just will wait until the games are out and buy it digital after seeing and honest review, im tired of felling scammed one way or another by publishers
Absolutely! Yeah I think in order for pre orders to be a fair system the publishers should be willing to refund if the game is bad, otherwise they have no incentive to fix the problems later on
@@TheElectricUnderground Playasia refunded my deathsmiles and cotton preorder, i will avoid city conection in the future, i dont care wich license they buy, they show they dont care in multiple situations so fuck them
Mark is 100% right.
I have the PS4 version and knew something was wrong immediately.
It took me many tries to even finish Guardian Force, which isn’t that difficult and I imagine I could do in 3 or 4 credits. It took me all 10 credits and beat it on my last life. So I died 29 times and at least 20 of those were special attacks not coming out in time.
Also, I got a blue error screen when beating the last boss if Cotton 2, not once, but TWICE! I switched it to Saturn mode in the options and I beat that. So as is, the Arcade mode of Cotton 2 maybe cannot be completed.
I really hope for a patch. Otherwise I won’t touch it again. Stay away from this one.
It s a real shame too because cotton 2 is really fun on the og system, yeah even trying to gather b roll on the release was too annoying so I played it via emulator instead
Remember kids : preorder is like giving your money for free. Don't complain if you get scammed.
Yep, the modern pre order system is a scam. For it to be fair you should be able to get a refund if the game sucks.
More than 4 frames of lag in modern day?! Thats unheard of!! Especially on older games
Really thanks . I was fooled with psykio port , no more now. I was waiting your advice and shmup on switch . Always see your test before buying because of lag mention
I m glad!!! I m glad my vids and tests are helpful!
And this is why I always hold off until reviews come out. Hopefully SLG's release improves it but I won't hold my breath.
Yeah same here, super nervous with what will happen to deathsmiles. It should be easy to port over, but city connection don t seem to have any quality control. Let s just hope Ikeda stops by their office before release ha
Strictly limited games did a lot of crap too. Bitte the bullet with the Bug on cartridge is really ridicoulus.
@@ninetendopesaitama2107 What did they do?
I'm buying it to stick it on my wall 😁 I hope the soundtrack CD and art cards don't have any input delay 😜
the notorious lag on the drums! they are beat behind! ;-)
There is actually an input lag notice in playasia's listing, saying that it will be updated.
Notice of input lag:
- City Connection plans to update the title to improve the input lag.
- Schedule for the update to be announced later.
Yes indeed! I wonder what inspired them to put up that notice ;-)
Saw a cheap copy of it on my country's Ebay today but skipped it. Has it been fixed as of yet?
Hows the ps4 version with the input lag? Also do you think the casual gamer will notice the lag?
It is 10 frames, and yes I'm afraid to say that it is incredibly noticeable and frustrating for players of all skill levels.
omg received my copy from play asia today and was super excited to play it! After starting the game i noticed the ridiculous lag and looked it up online. Found your video and i just wish i had done so before ordering this collection. I hope they somehow patch it because i'm stuck with this garbage now....fml
That sucks, yeah input lag is a huge problem if it's this high, especially in a shmup.
The Scanline setting has been added. Access the Scanline setting by going to Screen Setting -> Scanline.
・A setting to speed up loading has been added. The setting can be configured in Extra Option -> Fast Loading.
・Added a new feature to Cotton 2 and Guardian Force that allows you to set unlimited continues, which was previously only available in the main game of Cotton Boomerang. This can be set in Extra Option -> Credit.
・The input delay has been improved.
・Other minor bugs have been fixed.
This was all that was fixed or added
I can attest to this, the infinite continues option is a part of the Extra Options as well
I was on Playasia this weekend thinking about buying this and I'm so glad I came across your video. I will be avoiding this one which is a shame. I was going to have it sit right next to my Cotton Reboot game.
Yes i would definitely hang tight for future releases from the cotton reboot team instead.
Wow! I stumbled across your video just in time. I was all ready to pick these games up.
thanks for the honest review. in a genre so defined by control and response, this really is unacceptable and can only be viewed as a cash grab that tarnishes the legacy of classic saturn games. many people will have no idea that this isn't how the game was, and that is a damn shame.
Absolutely, I do think input lag is a fundamental aspect of the game's quality, just like framerate and all that sort of stuff.
So disappointing. I got guardian force and found the imput lag to be far too much so I've since not bothered with the cotton titles associated with this collection.
Fuck City connection, praise M2!
💯 it s a shame M2 didn t do the psikyo releases as well, they did a great job with Darius
Being the input lag police is a dirty job but someone has to do it.
it is ha, playing the heavy is not as fun as it may seem ha. But I do think it's important. Ideally it would be great if devs were aware that the electric underground is out here, prepared to pounce on input lag. ha.
Thanks for focussing on input lag. For that alone I am now subsribing to your channel.
Nobody should buy this.
I hope they sell 0 copies!
Agreed 100% with you
Awesome!!!
More like Shitty Connection, am I right
I can't wait for Deathsmiles I&II to have like half a second of input lag.
No kidding. The silver lining on deathsmiles is that it at least already has solid ports on steam and 360, so there are alternatives at least
This is really unfortunate. I was excited to finally get into this series with this release and saw it at my local game store, but passed on it initially bc I wanted to wait until reviews/analysis of the ports were done. 11 frames of input lag is unacceptable both from a gameplay and preservation perspective imo. Thank you for the information :)
No problem! Glad you waited before buying, sadly that seems to be the state of things when it comes to shmup ports (other then m2 so far) where you want to hang on and make sure they are accurate and don't have lag problems
What a massive bummer, and I was looking forward to this after having so much fun with the Cotton Reboot. Thanks for the heads up.
No problem! Glad to have helped :-)
I was almost going to pick it up last night. I'm glad I saw your video first! Thank you very much! I'll definitely pass.
Oh yeah I m glad you didn't end up spending the money
Thanks! I was eyeing that release up too. I’ll steer well clear
No problem!!
Didn't bother with the 2 Cotton games, but I did get Guardian Force on PS5. They pushed an update shortly after I started playing it on day of release. I can't be sure if it's because it's on PS5, but I'm not noticing anything crazy lag-wise.
It feels/plays much like Cotton Reboot (nothing crazy just slight ice skating). My main problem is the marketing. I went straight ahead and bought PSN credit to purchase from the Japanese PSN, so I paid well over the odds for a game that was available from my own region. Not the first time this has happened, I was caught with Mushihimesama in the same way.
This is disturbingly disappointing. Really wanted these games. Sucks cuz it leaves me no hope for the deathsmiles collection. I don’t get why they didn’t get the same developers that did cotton reboot!
So Cotton Reboot is fine? Phew... I bought that without checking much info first. This one though seems like a pass.
@@korvkorv532
Yes cotton reboot is fine cuz it was different dev team porting.
Yeah if they use this unity engine or whatever they did on this release on deathsmiles, it's a goner :-(
You know what make this collection even sillier? Cotton Reboot. So it isn't just "oh the Switch is underpowered" (which shouldn't be an excuse anyway when the Switch is several times more powerful than the Saturn) as there is another Cotton game as a direct comparison. And before people complain that such input lag doesn't matter, remember that Cotton is a shoot-em-up ; like with fighting games, input lag has a very real, and deeply damaging effect. This is the kind of game that absolutely need a 60 FPS frame rate and no input lag to play smoothly.
Really shows that one should make research on ports before buying them.
Also, I wouldn't hold my breath regarding the devs "patching it up".
Yeah they really don't have any excuse when cotton reboot exists, it has excellent input lag response like you mentioned!
I would like to know if the game is better these days after patches. And how the switch version compares with the pc version.
There was only two Saturn ports on 360, Radiant Silvergun, and Guardian Heroes. Radiant was recompiled as it's definitely not the original port. Guardian Heroes is pretty much the exact same as the home release. The basic input I notice on Guardian Force was with the turning of the turret, and when activating the bomb when playing from my live stream. Cotton Boomerang was the worst as I was not able to chain at all when grabbing the enemy also avoiding bullets the input lag made it worse. ST-V emulation is not perfect, and I'm afraid it will never be. So Guardian Force/Cotton 2/Boomerang are still ST-V games cut down to run on the Saturn. I didn't realize it was City Connection then I might have thought twice. However I'm not going to spend $600 plus so I can just avoid input lag. Also if you were to buy these games for the original system you probably are still going to get lag running on a modern TV unless you have a CRT or conversion to use HDMI thru the same CRT or a low input lag monitor. I'm glad everybody is into input lag that's the thing now but from what I know about the ST-V/Saturn programmed games in general it's a difficult task. Should you buy it? Yes and No. I did and not sorry. $37 and some input lag is better than $600+ and an expensive set up to just post bragging rights. No knocking the whole frame debate but we know it was gonna happen. I knew it would happen. I think with Radiant Silvergun for 360 there was a lot of time spent on the port. Also to boot the Switch is not underpowered for 2D gaming but it's hampered by two things, it has to run on both portable and then translate to another signal thru a dock to a TV. You have to factor in two different input timing programs while on PS4 it only requires one because it's a static console. Not giving City Connection a pass but how many actual ST-V/Saturn games are in existence on modern consoles. Yes, if you play this on a 4K TV it's awful, it was more doable on my Samsung monitor I use when streaming. I will hit up City Connections twitter but I'm keeping it. IF you start that class-action lawsuit lemme know.
I agree with a bunch of things you said, but you state a couple misconceptions. Sega Saturn and Sega ST-V hardware are essentially identicle. No performance differences in any way as I understand. The only differcnce is that the Saturn uses CD-Roms, and the ST-V uses cartidges. So the Saturn ports arent compromised in any way. Lastly its cheaper than you'd think to get a "lag free" expereince. You can buy a japanese Saturn with a controller for less than $150 on eBay, a mod chip for $10, and you can still find CRT's for cheap almost anywhere locally. Just burn each game on a CD, and there you go less than $200. :)
Yeah getting these bad boys to run with low latency is a chore. I'm personally going the jailbroken saturn route with upscaling using the OSSC or just playing it on a crt.
@@novo1858 ST-V and Saturn are not the same. The Saturn is cut down. Perfect example is Groove on Fight. That is an ST-V game that runs horribly on the Saturn even with the RAM expansion. So no it's not the same. None of the ST-V ports are perfect translation but they are close enough that includes the Cotton series. Further more I have a CRT, and modding a Saturn just to get 7 frames back is asinine at best. I'm good with my purchase.
@@TheElectricUnderground Yea I guess unless you like playing around with original hardware it can be a chore. That makes this whole collection all the more upsetting, I was really looking forward to it so that some of my friends who dont have a saturn could finally appreciate them. Well thanks for doing the review and spreading the word Mark. I hope City Connection somehow hears our voices.
@@superroboted There might be one or two examples of an ST-V game having some slight differences like more frames of animation in Groove on Fight, but for almost all the rest of the games between the platforms they are identicle outside of game Version differences and revisions to roms between releases. Just making a blanket statement like all the Saturn games are "cut down" is simply incorrect. And I own an ST-V board and a modded Saturn. Preforming a super easy $10 mod on your saturn to have access to the entire library, and less lag in these particular games is entirely worthwhile.
I'm glad you're honest. Games shouldn't be re-released this way and reviewers shouldn't be giving better scores in anticipation of a patched version that they haven't played yet. You're doing the right thing.
I'm glad you feel that way my dude. I think in this case this is especially true because I'm not sure how much patching is going to be able to fix this, honestly they might not be able to do much about it without just re-doing the game completely.
It's very impressive that it can run a Sega Saturn emulator on an under powered hybrid system like switch, because al lot of modern PCs are struggling with that.
And about the "Input Lag", the emulation is running on the Zebra engine, which is the fork of SSF Emulator which can be fixed by some patches, and I think modders and developers are already working on it.
Some modders even tried to inject Sega Saturn roms on the game data and most of the games are running flawlessly so if they buy the game it's a free Saturn Emulator for modded Switch devices.
"DO NOT BUY!" and "Class Action Lawsuit" is too much for this product. You should have just researched it a lot more, you're discouraging the developers.
I don t agree at all. I don t think it s right to review a faulty product and give it a pass based off the hope that the devs will fix it in the future. I did do my research and 11 frames of lag is unacceptable. You can sugar coat it but I don t think it s impressive at all when other releases like cotton reboot run so well and are responsive. So if 11 frames of lag is impressive to you exactly how broken does the port need to be before you d give it a negative review? Or would you just always recommend it on the hope the dev will fix all the problems someday?
You are too absolute about it,dont know if they are gona fix it but i agree with The Castiel.
@@TheElectricUnderground Dude, Cotton reboot is a completely new game, and Cotton Guardian Force is straight up Sega Saturn emulation. It's running a rom on a ported emulator. So this comparison is meaningless.
Cotton Guardian Force even have same input lag on PS4. Because of the same emulator engine. So it is a bug of the zebra engine. I think you may know the difference between the PS4 hardware and the underpowered Nintendo Switch hardware.
And it's 2021, You can't expect every game launch a complete bug-free. In now days every software getting a release cycles for fixes, optimizations and additional contents.
You can argue that it should be a port rather than the heavy emulation and clear the details instead saying it deserves "a class action lawsuit".
This showed up on the Playstation Store but instead of it being a "collection" they are selling each game individually for $17.00 each. I wanted to get these games but now I'm hesitating because I'm nervous about 10 frames of input lag. That's insane!
Public service announcement: Patch dropped last month and is reported to reduce the input lag by around 2-3 frames depending on game and set up. Also a steam release was put out for PC and i dunno about the input lag on that version, but I'm guessing probably still worse than mednafn.
It actually just reduces the input lag by 1.4 frames in cotton 2 city-connection.co.jp/cotton/en/topics/
Oh man this is heartbreaking. I was so excited to support this release too. Thanks for the warning!
No problem!
I was considering getting this, but after seeing the video, I decided to use the money towards M2's upcoming Tiger-Heli Collection. Also, I don't know if you already know this, but according to City Connection's president, the upcoming Deathsmiles collection are ports instead of emulation. I'm still kinda worried, though.
Yes me too! It could be ok, but the lack of quality control makes me nervous.
They're gonna do a patch playtest session in 4 days on a Tokyo venue. Looks like it's done and they want feedback on it? They posted the notice on the game's website 5 days ago. Let's hope it really is an improvement! I want this collection so bad but 11 frames is too big of a pill to swallow!
Really interested to hear how the patch turned out!
don't ever listen to a game reviewer when they say a game isn't worth your time unless it has a game breaking bug in it. make your own mind up by playing the game for yourself cause that's what a true gamer does
I can respect that for sure, though I would say that 11 frames of lag is game breaking to be honest.
It's a shame you think it's unplayable 'cause I've been playing it nonstop since its release and have been really enjoying it.
There's definitely a little bit of input lag but it doesn't feel anywhere near 11 frames to me.
I'm not saying there isn't 11 frames of lag (I have no way of measuring it and you're way more knowledgable about it than I am) and you're right to warn people about it.
But for me personally it hasn't hindered my enjoyment of the collection.
Yeah the input lag for me is just a no go, the delay was just way too much. I will say maybe try launching the game on mednafen or an og Saturn (if you have one) it will feel so much better in comparison
Good on you for highlighting this bs, greetings from Dublin Ireland 🇮🇪
Greetings!! Shout out to Ireland!
I was thinking about preordering it since I've become big Cotton fan after the Reboot, but that City Connection tho.
I've been able to play games with 5&6 frames of input lag, but 11 sounds like hell! Sheesh imagine playing rhythm games with that amount
Yeah 11 frames is crazy. Beatmania with 11 frames of lag sounds like torture.
I beat the game with no problem whatsoever I just think people are bad at this game 😂😆 I beat it on the switch 🤣
I BRIEFLY considered getting these before these dropped, but I have a modded Saturn with a MODE installed, so I didn't really need the ports. Super glad I didn't get the compilation now. 10/11 frames is.....gross. Likely due to innate difficulty emulating Saturn and then on top of that adding a Rewind feature, which means they're likely using several instances of that emulation simultaneously
yeah an unholy lag combination.
Interesting if true about the rewind feature because then they could offer a patch that disables it
Guardian Force has been removed from the Nintendo Switch eshop. At least the eshop here in Russia. Cotton 2 and Cotton Boomerang are still available. I wonder whether it's connected to input lag.
oh that is interesting!
What a shame. I'm new to the genre as a whole but the main appeal for me is picking up physical copies of games that have been kinda lost to time or were never released on home consoles. For me there is a game preservation aspect to it all, so even if there was a patch, that does nothing for me. Thanks to both you and Shmupjunkie for saving me some money.
Yeah it s a shame because cotton 2 is really cool game
I'll hold off until a future patch at least cuts the lag in half. As for the Saturn version, I don't even have a Saturn yet, let alone the game. The Sega Saturn itself shouldn't be a problem, be it North American or Japanese, and I'm sure an Action Replay RAM cart isn't too pricey, either. But the game itself-- At least the port for today's consoles is affordable.
Although, to be frank, I never actually played any of the Cotton games before (mainly because up until recently, very few Cotton games were ever released in North America and in very small quantities, hence their rarities today).
Has City Connection ever patched any of their games?
Yes that s how I plan to play the game, jailbroken Saturn and an action replay :-)
@@MaverickHunter17
Soldam: Drop, Connect, Erase, just to name one.
Bummer. I was surprised to see these titles individually on the PS4 shop, and immediately looked to TEU for impressions. Glad I held off.
Yeah with city connection I would def recommend a wait and see approach, so beware the deathsmiles port. I m going to cover it as soon as it comes out and I ll not hold back since it s my fav horizontal shmup
11 frames of input lag !!! City Connection is litteraly pissing on their customers, this is a bad joke !
Thank you mate for letting us know, hope they will patch this real soon, how can they release and ask money for that ?
Idk, I d feel guilty honestly
Mednafen
Mednafen
Change.org petition to change the name to medaffen coming soon!
I bought it when it came out and I tried it today when it came in and I played all three games for about 40 minutes to try them out and I tried two levels for each game and overall I really enjoyed playing them. I died several times for two of the games but that's only because the moment was a bullet storm and I don't notice the bullet until it's too late. I could see the buttons being a bit laggy but it's not like I'm playing it on a CRT TV so I expect a little bit, but not enough for me to have trouble. When it comes to movement I felt the analog input to be quick. I don't know if they already did a patch or im an idiot and didn't see the lag, so although I would recommend it because I had fun trying them and can't wait to play more, just in case don't buy it until there is some news of the lag being fixed. I'll make a update on this comment when I try the games again and give my second thoughts.
UPDATE: I played them again and to make this short I do notice the delay now, but I think the times where you get hit because of the input being slow will rarely happen. I haven't had it happen to me yet and I still think they are a lot of fun. I hope they still fix this because they can't just release this with this problem.
Give cotton reboot a try, you will immediately notice the difference :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground I have played Cotton reboot it's really good and I can say that responses really well. I'll have to check the Saturn Tribute again because hearing the lag problem is really strange for me not to notice. I didn't expect getting a comment from you so I appreciate the reply.
Surely they deserve some credit for inventing the turn-based shmup.
Finally ha!
Welcome to modern gaming: releasing a game that is broken.
indeed my friend!
I appreciate the heads up. Saved me some money.
Hell yeah! You can use the money on dodonpachi ressurection
Guess my mistake for not looking into who was making this. Was just so pleased with the Cotton remake that I instantly pre-ordered the game on Amazon Japan. Hopefully the PS4 version runs a bit better.
I m afraid not sadly, 10 frames on PS4 I believe
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, tried it out last night and it's kinda devastating. Especially since the throw and combo mechanics seem really cool :/
How does this release of the game play today? Has the excessive lag been patched out?
Thanks for the warning brother. Was really looking forward to these games🎮🍻
Yeah it s a shame :-( the best way to play them for now is to buy the Uber expensive original release or jail break your Saturn.
Don't let DOJBL Extra 1.0 happened again, they said.
but nooooooooooooooooooo
Those who don t learn from history are doomed to repeat it ... Or make it even more laggy
I’m so angry that I ordered the limited edition. There is NO EXCUSE for this crap in this day and age. City Connections can eat my ass. Even if they latch it the physical is RUINED!! Goddamn it!!
How do you test input lag? Is your TV crap? Do you know how to setup your TV? so many questions you're not thinking about informing your viewers of the answer.
got the info right here! web.archive.org/web/20200119185023/electricunderground.io/input-lag-test-setup/
basically:
60 fps camera
light wired to the direction input
lagless hdmi to crt converter
count the frames off the crt (a lagless display). My tests have been cross checked among other shmup players and youtubers :-)
Are you sure it isnt your tv? I dont have this issue and usually lag drives me nuts
Yes I am very sure :-) I m testing the lag on a crt which is a lagless display. The Japanese players have also tested the port and reported the same findings. twitter.com/kimagreGaming/status/1444217883953750016
Any word on how the new patch is?
according to the graphic from city connection it's 9.5 frames now, still laggy as hell but probably the best they can do with current port method city-connection.co.jp/cotton/en/topics/
ELEVEN frames??? For reals? For a shmup that's unplayable. At this point it's better to sell off your arm and leg for a Saturn copy of AT LEAST Cotton 2. Or if you don't own a Saturn, emulate it, it might not be great but anything is better than 11 fps of input lag
while playing i was wondering why the movement felt soo loose/slippery like being underwater all the time... turned out it was the input lag
Yep!
Same, I thought the game was just hard. 😂😂
On the other hand, this collection contains a fully functional Sega Saturn emulator that you can inject games into (on an exploited Switch of course). If I had a Switch, it'd be my Sega Saturn machine after this.
I d be careful about the hype around the emulator, it runs with a lot of input lag, as seen here and tested elsewhere. I d still recommend using mednafen via RetroArch on switch
Switch isn't great for emulated games like this, you are 100% right with your input lag critique. The only good emulated games on Switch come from big companies like Sega, Konami or Capcom and Nintendo's own VC of course.
I rather fight quadruple Hibachi + 1 Inbachi with zero slowdown than to play Deathsmiles with 18 input lag.
Ha me too!
This sucks! I bought the collectors edition on Switch. Lol. Luckily I own all three games on JP Saturn so I’ll play them there. From now on I need to look at who’s doing the ports. Beep or M2, please!
Ahhh dang my dude! Yeah I'd say be very careful pre-ordering from city connection especially, you never know what they will release whereas m2 seem to have very solid quality control. So if you have deathsmiles pre-ordered, I would strongly advise to cancel the pre-order and wait to see how the release is before you buy.
Gonna be honest as a consumer that doesn't know about stuff like input lag, and stuff like that, my experience without understanding the problems of the game, was I didn't enjoy it for some strange reason, and stopped playing, I played the saturn games, and loved em, for some strange reason didn't like the PS4 ports, and I guess this is why devs take note, I don't like these ports without even having the ability to explain why, that essentially amounts to I hit nearly an immediate brick wall, didn't understand why I didn't like the game, and forgot about it, it's not right to do that to other peoples games, I can't even explain why I didn't like these ports, that doesn't change the fact theres something wrong with them.
It's the input lag my dude, they are very laggy!
My friend schooled me by saying, your game is GUARANTEED at least 6 frames of lag if it has Rewind and FF features. As cool as that feature sound, it seems to always come with the same price.
Yep, not worth it, just use save states devs ha
City Connection is so terrible that they even butchered the translations on Hot Gimmick Cosplay-Jong. 😂
Not trying to talk crap since I am a fan of the channel, but watching the gameplay - are you aware of the chaining mechanics and special SF-esque inputs? When you kill an enemy with a charged shot they turn into an elemental orb ball and you can try and chain that to the end of the stage... Most fun part of the game for me.
Yes! this was just some gameplay I threw together uber quick ha, as I wanted to get the word out asap
So how could they fix input lag which was actual present on the Saturn alone, then translate to emulation not to actually lose frames. I wouldn't give them a pass but I wanna know what happened during translation. We need to tweet out to them this collection is two much of a deal to just throw away.
Ideally they would roll up their sleeves and rework the code like has been done on previous saturn ports like the 360 silvergun port. I think that's probably the only way to do saturn emulation (at least right now) without creating a bunch of extra lag.
My Disappointment Is Immeasurable And My Day Is Ruined.
I was really bummed out when I saw the news about this, it had the potential to be such a solid collection.
I heard that EXA have a policy where all games must be 4 frames or less. That is the kind of standard all platform holders should adhere to but sadly never will due to 3D games and laggy flatscreen TVs being the norm.
Oh well, money saved I guess.
Oh that's really cool that EXA put down their foot, I'd probably have a similar rule myself.
Who is this EXA you are talking about?
@@Kain652 exA-Arcadia. They are a company which produces a system designed only for arcades.
They are most well known for a policy they have where any game released on it must either be exclusive to the system or, if it is a port, contain features exclusive to the system (like the exA version of Akai Katana).
👍 Thanks for the Warning ❗️
Imagine buying that collection on Switch out of curiosity and blaming the game due to the ridiculous amount of lag, that would potentially give a *very* bad reputation to the game or even the series itself due to the fact that the developer probably won't bother fixing that issue that never happened in the original Saturn version.
Yeah no kidding, ha like you heard the nintendo switch has extra input lag and then you run into 11 frames, brutal!
This was the exact review I needed to see. Thanks for telling it like it is.
No problem!!
Well, since 1.0.1 is live for all 3 of the Saturn Tribute games, the input lag doesn’t look to be as bad as before so man, this video has now aged poorly
@@AWMonopolyMan aged poorly as in 11 frames of lag to 9? Sorry dude, but it's still incredibly bad input lag, video's criticism is still valid. And due to how the games are emulated, you won't see it go down to a reasonable number ever.
@@h.t.steiner5567 The original point was 11 frames of input lag. But my question is what is the Framerate cap? 20, 30 or 60? Because as I learned, OoT basically is a 20 FPS game but still polls at a full 60, which basically means only 1/3 of say its 11 on NSO input lag counts which is about 4 visual frames of input lag. As another reminder, the actual games that ran on Saturn and ST-V hardware also had bad input lag
Now im worried about Deathsmiles Collection ,its handled by them
I am as well. I'd say cancel your pre-order if you have one, it could be fine or it could be a nightmare, it's a roll of the dice at this point.
dont tell me they are doing deathsmiles 2 as well? Oh man, super extra disappointed now, we cant let a game publisher make a bad name for these incredible games! If they fuck up a Cave port we have to break out the pitchforks! SEND THIS WORK TO M2 FOR GODS SAKE
Yes they are, so be very careful with the deathsmiles release. It could be ok, but I wouldn't pre order, it could be a nightmare.
I wouldn’t be that worried since even Cave had trouble porting their own games accurately to home consoles over the last 2 decades. Perhaps CC could trump them with their forthcoming version of DS 1+2 and pull off a better port than Cave did themselves... Or not.