ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
- It's time to finish an age old debate... Is Support Broken in Overwatch 2? Yes. But why? It all starts with one of our least favorite characters on the channel, Kiriko. Today, we will discuss the popular clip from Metro on Twitter, why he is correct, and why Support is BROKEN in OVERWATCH 2?
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Chapter Markers
Intro - 0:00
Clip Start - 0:08
Clip Analysis - 0:40
Discussion - 1:50
Outro - 9:25
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Support is busted all because of a lack to address the real problems the game has. I don't really know how to fix the problem is, so I can't really fault the devs. I just wish we would have at least tried to make it work. What do you all think?
Soldier was full HP after duelling Kiriko. Sojourn then knocked him down to 55HP which was easy for Kiriko to finish off. So a 2v1 scenario is far from a fair comparison to show "Kiriko is broken" and purely anecdotal here. You also can't just write off the fact that supports are the main targets of the DPS so expecting them to be at a disadvantage while being constantly bullied all the time is just going to send us back to early OW2 days when no one wanted to play support, not even support mains. I agree that stuff like 'nade needs adjusting in isolation, but look at how the introduction of Mauga has made Ana and Kiriko a NECESSITY; that's not the fault of the supports here. No reasonable player wants support or any other role to be unfairly balanced but it's really tiring seeing supports always framed as the problem when there are more objective ways to have constructive discussion around balance that don't demonise a single role.
Exactly, this guys just whining
Yeah good old "oh i peaked when i was too low to tank a shot and surprisingly i got oneshoot".
Kiri is really strong and you might turn her down a bit by reducing the rate of the the kunais or increase her cooldowns a bit. But basically any other support along the Sojourn would have got the kill.
I think the complaint is that kiriko has two escape buttons and some gnarly dmg to boot.
Supports aren't busted. A soldier shouldn't just be able to dust a kiriko in a 1v1. The solider lived, so did the kiriko, but the kiriko bounced because he was about to die. It's much easier for soldier to land his shots, including grenade, plus he has sprint and self heals. Just because one is a dps and one is a support does not mean the dps should just automatically have the upper hand all the time. People in pvp games always complain about stupid stuff. They just want to one trick and be op and never learn how to counter (if I hear one more thing about CC (which is a joke in this game) I might throw up).
Thank you for speaking also to the difference in ranks; I thank you for this because "call for peels" doesn't exist in any ladder rank I've personally experienced.
On the other side, I can't help notice Metro occupied that Kiriko for quite some time. How then did she have anyone to teleport to? Did his team fail to win 4v4 or 4v3 after he murdered their Sojourn? Are we sure that we're measuring the value deeply enough?
I'm not a super experienced player, as you know, but to us n00bs it kinda looks like Metro created a pretty good opportunity for his team. (edit: math is hard)
Metro didn't occupy the Kiri, I think the opposite 🤔: Kiriko can occupy and distract the enemy in an aggressive way and has utility and damage to not only contest and kill enemies but reliably keep herself alive and when she wants to return to the team, for her own safety, or to heal and suzu critical team situations. She can just TP and magically fix it. If you have not, watch how "Awkward" plays Kiriko in his videos to get an idea of the value an aggressive Kiri can get and why TP makes it so easy to Win Fights, before the fight even starts.
For me the real issue is they created a support who can do it all or "Jack of all trades" You can't have amazing dmg, utility, mobility, survivability, & ult and expect that to be fair and balanced. We need clearer identity for roles and hero kits, and when power creep happens, have the ability to reassess (rework) and redesign previous flaws or shortcomings characters encounter along the way when regular balance and number changes isn't enough.
It can always be better and I hope the best for all supports, roles, and players across the ladder.
GLHF everyone and Merry Christmas! 🎄🎁🎊
Supports weren't buffed because of Kiriko, they were buffed because they were target number 1 and the high damage numbers carried over from OW1 meant their survivability was so low no-one wanted to play them; Especially now there's one less tank to absorb and protect from all that damage. The root cause is the damage output. I have no issue with Kiriko's dmg output specifically In fact I think everyone should have comparable primary fire output. But just as Sombra was changed Kiriko's TP should also be on the block. Whenever your decision has no consequences it's a decision that needs to change. Ana's nade similarly when there were two tanks there was a lot of hp to chew through, anti nade supported that paradigm, now there's less hp to go through but the same (or higher) amount of damage that ability is even stronger. There's just a lot of OW1 remnants that still need to be worked out.
I also really hate this 'Support is broken' (because two characters have abilities that need to change) line. It's so full of hyperbole to the point it makes anyone saying it a lot less credible and I know watching your past content thats not what you are. What happened to the meaningful discussion points? The reasoned comparisons and judgments? This comes off as a rant and a mic drop before you jump ship to some other game, instead of a commitment to promoting change. Maybe you've had enough. Fine. Games change just like people. But there's nothing to indicate that changes for the betterment of the game aren't coming. If anything there's an abundance of it!
Also this nonsense claiming supports have dps levels of damage output needs to go away. Their primary fire is less forgiving, but generally lower, and comparable to a lot of dps classes depending on the circumstances. Yes. In my opinion, hot take or no, everyone's primary fire should have a balanced comparable damage output. This is an FPS hero game of kill or be killed there should be more than a pre-prescribed, as rote way of playing one character. DPS have characters with largest projectiles that still do comparable damage to those with hitscan and also high mobility, the most forgiving rates of fire as well as additional abilities to support their ability to kill or sustain their damage not to mention ways of circumventing just about any defense that they come across. Supports dont have that, they have their primary fire and their short-term sustain when under fire. Or in Kiriko's case a get out of jail free card; Their secondary abilities were not selfish but they're forced to use them that way and have been adapted to be more selfish because dps and tank have so many options and such high output.
The problem comes when two high-ability players of equal or comparable skill face off, the forgiving nature of the damage output on DPS isnt as much of a benefit and the survivability of the support becomes a big advantage.
Support was finally hard to live on, as it should be, and we didn’t like it because we couldn’t introspect and improve. We were busted in ow1, finally the start of Overwatch changed that, and now we are back to being a dumb role in Overwatch 2
It is what it is.
Not reading all that but me personally I thought support power creep was from supports bitching about dying so much when season 1 was dive meta and there was one less tank to bail them out from their lazy positioning. There weren't as many shields to hide behind anymore, and Brig Zen was no longer disgustingly overpowered so they complained and support got mega buffed alongside the broken new supports being released
Support is broken: Nah
Kiriko is broken: Yea
I'm not really a big fan of the Kiriko clip because of the positioning Metro was in. He was fighting a 1v2 without his CDs while separated from his team AND he was doing it mostly in the wide open without any natural cover. Kiriko burned two CDs to kill him after he was distracted from 1v1ing the Sojourn...really that could've easily been a kill from practically any Support. Kiriko's ability to escape is not a new concept to OW. Tracer has been able to pull off very similar maneuvers for a long time. Characters that can get out fast are not new to OW. Practically no one was frustrated at Kiriko before Illari was released...hell she was actually received really positively by the community. Suddenly the floodgates opened on support once people saw how broken Illari and Bap were. People generalized to almost all supports and this extended to Kirko because of what they heard from content creators. But statistically, she's pretty much never been dominant except for early season 1...like not even close to being dominant. She's consistently been in the 45-48% WR range at all ranks for about a year now while having a relatively high pickrate. If we're going to talk about how Supports are broken "by the numbers" I think we should actually be able to back it up. Cause if you look at the stats regardless of rank, she's trailing behind most Supports in winrate, healing, and damage. If you want to make the argument she suddenly feels bad to play against but isn't broken that's different...but even then I find it disingenuous no one was making these arguments until Illari got released.
Now I'm not saying Support is perfect by any means. The passive clearly needs tuning or at least the other roles passives need to be on the same level. It's pretty dumb you can just wait behind cover instead of having to make hard decisions to fend for your life. If anything I think this is one of the biggest contributing factors to the frustration people feel about Support. Clearly Bap needs some tuning. Theoretically his numbers are absurd and in practice he goes from being at like 42% WR in Bronze to roughly 52% in GM...meaning he feels impossible for new players to play and then suddenly becomes broken at higher ranks. Ana is a bit hard to tell on because of how high her pickrate is but how oppressive she is for tanks needs to be questioned. Mainly I feel the problem with OW2 is how variable the tank role is and how unbalanced the DPS characters are...they're all over the place. Support is actually relatively close to where it should be--a fun role to play where most characters are reasonably close to each other in balance and all characters can be played well at a high level. I'd prefer if the devs focused on making the characters lagging behind in the tank and DPS roles decent again. I used to love playing off-tank in OW1 and now the role feels miserable. Not even because of Supports but because of the RPS nature of how a lot of tank matchups work.
Finally I'm just gonna say that people should actually look at the numbers themselves. Supports still trail behind the other roles in damage AT ALL RANKS. Yes you will see games where a support pops off and is doing as much damage as the DPS, especially in higher lobbies. But it isn't the average and it doesn't happen every game. Also the winrates at GM between all roles are within 1% of each other. If anyone is going to claim one role is super busted compared to another they should come back with statistics instead of anecdotal experiences. Those anecdotes are valid for discussing how fun the game is or whether the design is going in a good direction. But it's not actually an honest conversation if you have to lean on "well they just FEEL overpowered to me."
Tbh supports being op is collateral from changing to 5v5. Ana was made for a 6v6 game and when her counters are removed (offtank like zarya/dva), then her kit gets rlly busted
Real real real he gets it
I just want them to make sure supports still do damage because it’s a shooter game so it’s important that everyone actually gets to shoot the enemy.
I mean, could Soj not have escaped as well? She used mobility to get in, Kiriko used it to get out…
Now I’m not saying support isn’t outta balance, but idk if I’m buying this clip
but sojourn cant go through walls with the slide and is vulnerable while sliding so there is a big change that soj would have died anyways even if mobility used to run away
Time for Overwatch 3… 1 Tank, 2 DPS, and 1 support. Smile
Nah we need a couple more PVE expansions for even more money kekw
youre close, 3 dps
I'm a new player. I just started playing overwatch. I use Pharah. Can you do a character video on her? I mean a super noob. I have only 20 hours and just now reached competitive mode. And u also think Pharah is more of a support player just with no healing ability? Do you agree?
It's funny how broken support is supposed to be and how ridiculous is my actual losing streak on this role, coming from master 4 to below diam ^^ I don't know why but I can't win anymore with huge losing streaks like I've never known on this game...
I'm sorry but that gameplay of Metro was horrible I'm sorry really
Герои поддержки не сломаны, они наконец-то могут дать отпор! 😄
i just came back to overwatch today after not playing since release nd played a qp match with ana in a capture point, my tank and both of the dps died and it was only me being pocketed by a mercy against orisa mercy and echo.
guess who won?
"With one less tank to heal they will need to nerf supports in ow2" aaaaand they buffed them.
I don't think Kiri will ever be nerfed in the way she should. She's Mercy 2.0 for all the Mercy mains. Almost all Mercy mains that I know flex onto Kiri because of how strong she is with very little mechanical ability needed. She also is like Mercy in the sense that she is a money making machine, and Blizzard logistically wouldn't want to make the hero unfun for those who consistently drop a ton of cash for all her skins. I mean the Mercy community's outcry about the Christmas skin release time made them change it to release now... so imagine what happens if Kiri gets hard nerfed lol
I mean, they eventually did clip Mercy's Wings. The last GA change they did to her (cant start the CD earlier after a short Tech, will still incur 1.5 second extra time even if the ability is fully over and you're walking on the ground) made her genuinely boring to play. Her movement got hard nerfed with that, and now the best way to play her IS to sit AFK behind a corner and pocket someone. The playstyle people complained about for years is the one Blizzard decided to leave standing.
And then they finally nerfed Dmg Boost like they should have to begin with.
Kiri is not untouchable. Her win rate is pretty shit rn, but she did NOT need that suzu buff last patch lmao
@@fizzlock Yeah but my point is more along the lines of "never" really being the life of the game. Look at the lifespan of Mercy from OW1 to OW2. She's one of oldest heroes in the game and just recently had adjustments during the OW2 era. I feel like Kiri won't really ever have negative changes until years down the road haha
I know she isn't untouchable, but that hit box is insane lol. And I'm not biased, I'm a support main as well (practically a Bap specialist). One of the biggest issues in OW in generall is immortality (again coming from a Bap main), and Kiri has a better immortality than Bap on a faster CD with no counterplay and also cleanses negative effects and heals haha. Pairing that with a get out of jail free card that also cleanses and is on like a 7 second CD, her tiny hit box, and her massive kunai hit box that is bigger than Hanzo's arrows (which are also problematic), she is just one if the strongest heroes in the whole game. Then there's rush farming lol.
I cant believe metro got shit for state the obvious
And yet people are still trying to justify that a support should be allowed to take a 1v1 with a dps, miss 12 shots, and get out just fine