I just sent you an email last night to get my spot and send you my equipment. I have health issues. I only get a dozen good nights in a year. I missed TWO of them a couple weeks ago because I just had surgery and I can't lift my scope onto the mount. I tried. Even if I was able, I really only have enough time to shoot one target a year. If I want anything more than 10 hours worth of exposure time. The way I see it, im using the same equipment whether I'm laying on my couch with my machine outside or laying on my couch with the instrument in Texas. The only difference is I don't have to worry about someone stealing it in the middle of the night. Or getting eaten by a cougar. Or sprayed by a skunk. I dont have to leave whatever I'm doing with my wife and kids to go home and set my equipment up.... This is TOTALLY worth it.
Ditto. My scope has been up for just less than 11 nights. Imaged every night. A few clouds one night. I'm sure there will be bad runs of weather too. You will enjoy it like I do. Just read all the instructions on what to send, how to pack etc.
I think it's a cool thing you guys are doing! - while remote isn't for everyone, neither is backyard! it goes without saying that we're all different, and what we're looking for from astronomy is different too in many cases, so it follows that remote or backyard would be a divisive subject - don't worry about anything, you're doing a great job mate Clear skies! (I'm sure you know this already but I'm 1000% sure that Trevor was only joking by the way, haha!)
Those who say that we're cheating aren't having any problems using GOTO, autoguiding, digital cooled cameras, and elaborate software and/or AI plugins, to create their images. This gatekeeping sh*t has got to stop. Enjoy this hobby the way YOU want to. Thank you, Bray, for Starfront Observatories!
Bray Trust me man u have done an amazing thing for the astro community and you are literally opening doors for people to get into astrophotography. Love what ur doing bro Keep it up
Aww come on trevor was just kidding about that in his video lol you don’t have to justify what your doing , 99% of us literally just do this for fun with a small side of science mixed in. However you want to enjoy the night sky it doesn’t matter as long as people are looking up that’s all that matters. Plus , quite literally all professional astronomy is remote
So travel to a dark location and take the images yourself. Sending your equipment to someone else to set up and maintain means you are sharing the image and you will never be able to take full credit for any image.
@@Paul_85- you are not sharing anything when you are in remote. your setup is just far from home but it is still your setup, your computer, your images. nobody can access it
@@RobBarter you would think so! But not quite that bad, Southern Victoria in Australia. Everyone thinks of Australia as dry with clear skies, but not here.
When I saw Trevor's video..."No Trevor, it's not cheating." Having a permanent setup even just in my Bortle 5 backyard has unlocked so many new aspects of astrophotography. Dark sky permanent setups FTW!
@@christopherleveck6835 Well, that's not what I was saying. Similar to what Bray said, I think there's plenty room in this hobby for however you want to attack it.
I'm surprised that you get people complaining about your remote observatory with all the benefits behind it. And if people don't consider this as real "astrophotography" they are really delusional and honestly it just sounds like jealousy or feeling envious of the idea. This is an incredible thing you are doing for people who don't have the privileges of Dark skies and time to drive off into the wilderness. I'm lucky that i live in Nevada where i have dark skies all the time
We saw the same reaction from some when "smart telescopes" starting showing up. We still see some of the same attitude from visual only amateur astronomers. Folks just need to take a short break and consider the world beyond themselves before reacting.
Amazing that you’ve turned your passion into a fun biz! It’s been inspiring to watch your progress. Although I have a spot reserved, life does get in the way, and I have yet to send the rig out there. But it’s coming soon!
Thank you for having the vision to see a gap in what was available for those of us who do not have large budgets for astrophotography. And for filling that gap. I've had my scope there for just less than 2 weeks and getting thru learning NINA. You have a great and helpful staff and hope you continue on this path. Hope to have my "first light' image soon. Again, thank you!!!
I am astrophotographer from sweden, Stockholm bortle 8. I stared on a balcony and now a house and backyard. I think ever one should enjoy astrophotography that what u like the most. Where i live u problably never get amazing data but taking photos i get out of the hobby. Falures, learing and always bad skises and tinker with my stuff i enjou but if i want get the best data i should shoot from other places but life is always present and this what i enjoy. I think every should do astrohotography that u enjoy and its no wrong or cheating. Its only what the kind of astrophotograher u are as a person. In sweden bortle 1-2 skies are rare. Up in the North of sweden. Think majority of pepople live in bortle 7 and up. This is a nish hobby and i think people should be more supportive to one and other. So many as possible should enjoy this hobby. Be kind one and other so as many can enjoy this hobby from theire situation and possiblities. Clear skies and last thing. With out the remote from bortle 1 skies we woulden the wonderfull Andromeda OIII Arc and other stuff.
Hey Bray! Look, I have been an amateur astronomer (more than an astrophotographer) for years now (not too many though, I started this on 2018). As you might recall, I live in Mexico City. Light pollution, air pollution, cloudy nights, and just a few clear nights a year, say, 50 would be awesome? So, answering from my perspective what you have been asked for (or complained about), I certainly can tell you: 1. Remote telescopes are not fun... C'mon people! I get the point that it is also fun to setup from skratch all your gear to prepare for a clear night. But not having the chance to take data and do your own research (I practice photometry and spectroscopy, and, yes, some astrophotography as well), that is REALLY NOT FUN. Not having the chance to support professional astronomers with their observation requirements, that is NOT FUN. On the other hand, I must admit that the rig I have on the rooftop of my home has been controlled remotely by me since more than a year now. I only have to pull the cover off, and I turn the thing on and control it from my "office" or my bedroom (exactly the same as I do with my scope at SF). I also want to say that going out to a dark site is fun, but is fun because you hang out with colleagues and friends, and yes, you do some astrophotography and visual astronomy, and you learn a lot from them. But you can keep on doing this if you want to, and at the same time show-off how cool your remote setup is. ;) 2. Remote is not "real astronomy". Most of the professional observatories, if not all, are ran remotely. This would apply to the very-so-far-out-remote-observatories just like Hubble, Chandra, Gaia, JWST... the data that they collect is "not real"? How so? So I am in this one with you too. 3. Remote is cheating. Guys, c'mon! This is not a competition... or is it? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of astrophotographers are competing to get an APOD, for example. Or trying to capture the astroimage that would beat you, Andrew, Trevor, Chuck and Nico, plus Hubble and JWST at the same time and alltogether. But that is not the point. That has never been the point. As you have shown us: astrophotography is about discovery, to allow us expand our knowledge, to understand better, to enjoy... So, to have the possibility to have a remote location with much more clear and dark nights is a priviledge, yes, but is not cheating. So, have a good one now, Bray. Next time I stop by with you guys and visit, please take doggy dog out in order to meet him. Cheers!
Stop cheating, Bray! It’s not fair! 😂 I’ll be sending a rig out soon. I work 12 hour days with commute on average. Sometimes longer. I don’t have the time and the energy to do it at home as often as I’d like. It will be fantastic to start a plan while at work, and just let it work all night while I sleep. I’ll still have a rig to set up at home for that hands on experience that we all enjoy.
Is using a digital censor cheating? Back in the day, digital photography in general was considered cheating. It was a HUGE discussion when digital photography debuted. Is using a telescope cheating? Should we be using lensless cameras and not magnify? Also, are mounts cheating? Shouldn't we be moving our lensless cameras with no digital censors manually? As technology advances, the 'cheater' comments and similar come out, but usually those people are emotionally reacting based on their own personal issues with the hobby. I see the biggest value of your service is the dark sky. Others may see bigger values, but that is my perspective. Good luck Bray. I wish you all the success. You and your team have created something wonderful for thousands of astrophotographers. Haters gonna hate, no matter who they are, apparently, and it aggravates me (for a brief moment only) when these types try to influence. Thanks for defending your venture and yourself. All your points are valid.
I dont know how it is cheating... forget the dark sky, just having a scope setup 24/7 and ready to go every night is worth it! I hate getting everything together and spending time getting everything setup.
For me its like fishing or buying the fish. I like the fishing part and of course also the fish. But the fishing keeps me going. Its crazy what you guys are able to do there and maybe i am one of you guys some day but currently i am outside with my fishing rod.
Man don't listen to the nay sayers, if I could afford it my rig would be there in a heartbeat. Yes it is fun to sit outside with your rig but lets be honest we don't stay up all night we do other stuff while the magic happens. You have started something amazing and I hope to be part of it one day.
If I could afford it I would send you a set up in a heartbeat, I do have an observatory but here in the UK clear skies are pretty rare so I don't get out much as I would like to. The 3 RASA setup looks impressive although running one is a headache by itself lol. Keep doing what you're doing & wishing you good luck in your venture but please where some steel toe cap boots when setting up the piers lol
Bet Trevor is wishing he never made a joke of it now :) Those who don't get the joke should remember that the hobby is huge. Some people never look up to the sky but are more than happy to learn about how galaxies form, why Black Holes burp.... Others like to look thru eyepieces to get the "full connection", while others want images they can look back on in years to come and share with others. Most imagers will buy their own kit while a few may get the soldering iron out and build their own digital cameras (yes this did use to happen). Is buying cheating?...and don't get me onto grinding mirrors! Me?...I bought and assembled my own rigs but then I'm asleep when most of the work is being done...is that cheating? I haven't had 1 clear night since August (I'm in Devon, UK) but I would never disparage anyone living in a climate more condusive to Astronomy (jealous yes, disparage no)....or someone with enough drive to improve their imaging opportunities. Few can emigrate halfway around the planet to Utah or Chile just for their Hobby. So respect everyone's own take on the hobby and wish me good skies!
Well said Bray, I agree with all your points. I have 3 rigs currently in my bortle 5 backyard.. which btw is just under 3 hours away from Starfront. I just put a deposit down to move one of them to Starfront! The other two will of coarse continue to run in backyard on every clear night. CS!
@@scotiaastro Thanks Steve! I don't know how quickly they will get the scope setup once I drop it off. It will probably be a couple of weeks before I get out there.. so hopefully by late Nov it will be running. Pretty excited :)
Excellent points, I can relate to all of those points and have encountered them all on social media pages. I own my own little remote observatory also, housing 2 observatories on the same block of land in a small country town, located in the River Murray International Dark Sky Reserve in South Australia. It didn't start out that way though. I first setup my remote observatory in my backyard in Adelaide, a major city in South Australia. Under Bortle 6 skies I built the roll off roof observatory, created the means to remotely operate the roof and gear via the internet and then when the councils decided to install LED lighting which shon directly into my Observatory, I decided it was time to step it up and move the gear. (I almost gave up on Astronomy because of this) I can now operate the observatory from over 120km away and have it take the images for me. I am now setting up my Second Observatory with a much bigger setup, including a JTW Astronomy Trident-GTR mount. All this was done off my own back, no help from anyone, except to move the gear. You need a good plan, patience, lots of saving and a good mindset of the outcome you want to achieve. Anyone can achieve these goals I think. Hopefully in the new year the Observatory will become 100% fully operational. Thank you for your videos and good luck in the future with this gear, looks amazing.
Exceptionally well put!!! It’s just another option to increases accessibility for many who would otherwise not give the hobby a go or give up because it is hard to find decent skies
This is such a good idea and project. Do you think you'll ever be successful enough to have some free "community" scopes for users to borrow using like a queue system?
Respectfully, for me, from my perspective and experience, the KEY is having a permanent observatory: the styple or type is not the issue, rather having your equipment set up, and aligned - easy to access - makes astronomy and photography super-fun. Remote observing - not for me.
The main goal in astrophotography is to capture objects in the night sky There are no rules. We're we do it or how we do it is a personal choice. Whether it's done in a permanent backyard observatory or Miles and Miles away at another location the end result is still the same But so many more options of image gathering at a somewhat perfect location. For me bortle 6-7, tall 50-60 ft trees all around with no view of West sky and partial north, south, east I own 6 scopes 2 mounts so I can still Capture at home and fiddle with the set up if I want. People need to open up their minds a little more. Good video response. Thank you! 😊. Re-edit someone said it shows bortle 2 on Google maps The online scale is more general Using a sky quality meter (SQM) is more accurate for specific location
I think the questions is not if its cheating, clearly its not, but is it fun for you? Im sure some people enjoy post processing more than tinkering. And if thats the case, why not have your telescope reside in a Bortle 1? I personally enjoy tinkering with the hardware, and even in my crappy bortle 8, having some fairly good filters makes it still possible to do it.
Thanks for the video Bray, There’s certainly no shortage of opinions in this hobby. Would you be able to do a video on your triple Rasa set up and how you control the three cameras?
I can't wait to see the collaborations in the future. There's potential to make groundbreaking imaging projects placing SFO at the forefront of astrophotography.
Hobbies are all about relaxing and having fun the way you want to, not the way others say you should. I enjoy setting my gear up in my backyard, and although my images will never win any prizes, I'm still happy taking and processing them. I dont mind how other people enjoy this hobby, its entirely up to them as far as I'm concerned. Professional astronomers more or less always use remote scopes, some of which, like the Hubble and the JWST, aren't even on the planet, and yes I can see a day when amateurs will be able to pay to use space based mini scopes, won't happen any time soon but I firmly believe that at some point it will and there will no doubt be people who will criticise people for using them. The main reason I don't use remote scopes is financial. All of my own scopes are remotely controlled anyway, once i have them set up I select the target, type in the exposure details, gain, filters, operating sequence etc. press run and the installed control pcs do the rest, which is what you do with a remote scope anyway, the only difference is how far the scope is from the back door of your home. I live in an area of the UK that doesn't see many clear nights, so I am unable to be imagining anywhere near as often as I would like so if the price of remote imaging ever falls to something I can afford I would certainly take it up.
It’s all good. Remote allows more focus on processing and target selection, which is really most of the work. If folks miss getting outside themselves, just get a Star adventurer for that and let your remote rig crank in the deep sky data.
It's funny - remote astrophotography is the only option for Hubble, JWST, etc. Is that cheating? I do enjoy putting hands on my equipment, but when Trevor showed 5 buildings at your site with almost all full, I think we have the answer on this question.
Bray you make many valid points, I just got reunited with astronomy and because of the advancement of technology I bought my first ZWO rig. As you mentioned I don’t use it much because I live in Long Island,ny. So I have to save more money to buy another rig to send to you and have the best of both worlds. This brings up an important question to you. So my scope is zwo 65mm refractor which is great for travel, what scope should I be looking at for remote purposes. Regards Jim
What a great idea. A friend does mainly DSOs in her backyard dome, she loves sleeping while getting her data and processing later. I find this very appealing, especially as I'm usually in bed by 8:30 😀
@@astrofalls Searching for the elusive oiii nebulas...... I have been watching you for a while. Check your email. I'm ready to get started. I must have sensed this was coming.
I drive about 200kms round trip to reach Bortle 4/5 in UAE - a lot of work to carry 50kgs worth of equipments - problem solving on field and driving back in zombie mode back home only to repeat it all over again for a week of relatively moonless nights. Despite that - I would rather do that than shoot remote. It’s not just about getting exposures easily via remote but it’s an overall experience of being out there with like minded folks and absorb the good vibes and aura of night sky. But to each his own 🤷🏻♂️
Yes, it's cheating. No, don't stop it; it's awesome. It's about the same level of cheating as using an ASIAir instead of a laptop and 50 programs. It makes it so much easier, and for those of us who are relatively new to the hobby, it would make it much more beginner friendly to not need to set it up every single time. I would love to get my scope out there, given that I only get to do astrophotography once a month, regardless of the weather. Unfortunately, I'm a wee bit far down in Aus lol
It is not! I have one of my telescope on its way there. It will be way more productive there. I still have a rig at home. Both will accomplish something different for me. I will have the best of both worlds!
I enjoy Astro images no matter where they come from. JWST, Hubble, Chile or the suburbs of London. As long as there’s full disclosure so you can compare apples with apples it’s all good. Personally, there’s just not enough hours in the week and I’m happy to wait for a clear night once in a while or sneak a Milky Way landscape in whenever I’m away but if people want to spend every waking hour making use of their remote investment, and can do that without it becoming a chore, why not?
LOL . Im laughing at the title , Because Trevors last words in his video was Cheaters ... lol .. with that said i still need to send my scope . I live in NJ under a light dome just a few blocks of New York View across the Hudson River.
Bray - I'm preparing my rig for shipping down to your observatory and I have been trying to get a few questions answered without success for the past week. How do I go about speaking to someone at your observatory to answer my questions? It's a bit frustrating given the investment I'm putting into this that there is no phone number and no one is returning my emails. Appreciate any support or guidance you can provide. Best Regards
If I'd have known just how much money I would spend on having my own gear, and how little use it would get (due entirely to the weather), I would have gone down the remote astrophotography route from day 1.
It took months tinkering to set up my remote rig. I hate tinkering. I like shooting and being out in the skies. Hate troubleshooting. Want that shit to just work.
So I'd love to place a telescope with you. However, I have 2 issues, and only one is probably solvable. 1) I read your T&C's and would not accept the word "marring" to be in the contract. Normal wear & tear for an observatory-installed teleascope, yes. 2) I have a TAK Epsilon130ED and can't workout how to install a flat panel and stay on a $150 pier.
I have great equipment. I just don't know if I could afford to ship it all! Especially my mach1 in one of those heavy road ata cases. Then I'd need to ship that case back! $$$$$$$$$$$
Dark skies are rare these days! This isn't cheating, it's a necessary and done out of desperation. Did Trevor start the newest internet beef? Is this ASTROBEEF?
I see the "cheating" argument as humor. I mean... Bortle 1 and 200 clear nights a year? To the average person living under bortle 5-6 with maybe 3-4 clear nights during a good month, it can certainly feel like cheating. Do I actually consider it cheating? Of course not. (Jelaous of the conditions is a better description). I still enjoy setting up in my backyard, so that's what I do, because that's fun for me. For others, opportunities like Starfront are excellent choices.
I count it as "cheating" when you pay to get an advantage, which is paying for darker skies and especially telescope live services. But the fact you made this and are out there with the scope every night would be different. My opinion of course as I will never pay for my scope to be away from me. Hell roro and cuiv do most of their shooting on balconies.
Definitely NOT cheating. If you want darker skies but don’t live in a great bortel zone and can afford it…. Go remote! I do however feel that the joy of this hobby is getting out under the stars with my scopes from home. The big downfall I see is that you pretty much have a fixed rig and swapping out gear takes a bunch more work. By imaging from home I can switch scopes, cameras or what ever I need in order to capture what I want. Different targets may require different gear and it’s easy to just grab the right scope, camera and misc stuff when at home.
I don’t know what the difference is between remote observing or somebody with an automated backyard setup that has everything programmed and sequenced in NINA and all the need to do click their mouse.
lol... it's pay to win. Some people just do not live in ideal conditions to do astro effectively and this is perfect for that. I have no quarrels about it but I like to be hands on.
For my current astrophoto project, I have already set up my equipment in the garden 15 times and then monitored everything all night. I respect all projects of this kind because this is real handmade astrophotography. Remote astrophotography where you just send a setup to an address and don't even have to set it up yourself is like having a webcam in a landscape and then calling yourself a landscape photographer. Do remote setups produce good astrophotos? Definitely yes. But is it real astrophotography: in my opinion, no!
I'm doing Astrophotography from my balcony, only having access to like 40% of the sky (facing east) using a budget $1400 rig cobbled from used parts and stuff from Aliexpress that I assembled and modified myself. Astrophotography is not just producing pretty pictures - you could do that by just downloading and processing data from Hubble, Webb as well as myriad of ground based professional observatories that make their data available and it'd be exactly as valid as paying for data from something like Telescope Live. Astrophotography is problem solving. It's researching the gear and building a setup that you can afford and working against your and it's limitations. It's using the gear and taking the pictures yourself to the best of your own ability and improving your techniques. It's not clicking a button on a website which basically says 'take images of x nebula on y day'. Now astrophotography where you build your own remote observatory but still control it as if you had it locally and you still chose all the gear yourself is fine in my opinion, it's only those automated telescope services that are actually cheating.
If you don't pay for and set up your own equipment dealing with all the problems and learning along the way means any data you get will never be your own. Sending your equipment half way across the world for someone else to set up and maintain means you are jointly sharing the data however for those who simply use a website to access and pay to use someone else's telescope/camera etc etc is cheating !!!! There is NO justifying this and anyone who does this did NOT take the photo and CANNOT claim any responsibility for the image. Obviously this guy will now always claim it's not cheating simply because he makes money from it. No offense but this is the truth. P.S absolutely love your photography and you seem like a really cool guy 👍🏻
Yeah, I agree partially. Building your telescope rig and setting it up halfway across the world while still having it accessible through software the same exact way like you would have locally (so for example using N.I.N.A. and PHD) is totally fine in my book. Yes, you're not the one maintaining the hardware once it's there, but you still have full access and are controlling it in real time and you have built it yourself, meaning you know the hardware. Meanwhile it's a completely different story when talking about a remote telescope service that basically does all the astrophotography for you and they already have their own gear which you never even see. Using these services you basically pick a target, schedule the acquisition time and specify the acquisition details (which is optional, some of these services can even choose all the settings for you). Finally you pay a hefty price per hour for the telescope time and you'll get your data once the telescope finishes the observations. I think those services are "cheating", especially if you use the "full auto" mode where it's actually the remote telescope team that not only controls the telescope but also chooses all the settings themselves instead of using settings that you specified - in that case can you actually say "I took that picture"? No. You can't - the same way as if you took data from Hubble and only processed it yourself. You didn't take the picture, you never ever saw or interacted with the hardware that took the picture, you only received the data and processed it, that's all.
@@Paul_85- Yeah that's slightly worse, but at least you still send it meaning you have bought it yourself and presumably tested it beforehand. So there's that at least.
I just sent you an email last night to get my spot and send you my equipment.
I have health issues. I only get a dozen good nights in a year.
I missed TWO of them a couple weeks ago because I just had surgery and I can't lift my scope onto the mount.
I tried.
Even if I was able, I really only have enough time to shoot one target a year. If I want anything more than 10 hours worth of exposure time.
The way I see it, im using the same equipment whether I'm laying on my couch with my machine outside or laying on my couch with the instrument in Texas.
The only difference is I don't have to worry about someone stealing it in the middle of the night.
Or getting eaten by a cougar.
Or sprayed by a skunk.
I dont have to leave whatever I'm doing with my wife and kids to go home and set my equipment up....
This is TOTALLY worth it.
My telescope is there. I can’t recommend it more.
Ditto. My scope has been up for just less than 11 nights. Imaged every night. A few clouds one night. I'm sure there will be bad runs of weather too. You will enjoy it like I do. Just read all the instructions on what to send, how to pack etc.
I think it's a cool thing you guys are doing! - while remote isn't for everyone, neither is backyard! it goes without saying that we're all different, and what we're looking for from astronomy is different too in many cases, so it follows that remote or backyard would be a divisive subject - don't worry about anything, you're doing a great job mate
Clear skies!
(I'm sure you know this already but I'm 1000% sure that Trevor was only joking by the way, haha!)
You nailed it with “it’s like having your own space based telescope” if your really into it, then have both setup’s.
Those who say that we're cheating aren't having any problems using GOTO, autoguiding, digital cooled cameras, and elaborate software and/or AI plugins, to create their images. This gatekeeping sh*t has got to stop. Enjoy this hobby the way YOU want to.
Thank you, Bray, for Starfront Observatories!
Bray
Trust me man u have done an amazing thing for the astro community and you are literally opening doors for people to get into astrophotography.
Love what ur doing bro
Keep it up
Aww come on trevor was just kidding about that in his video lol you don’t have to justify what your doing , 99% of us literally just do this for fun with a small side of science mixed in. However you want to enjoy the night sky it doesn’t matter as long as people are looking up that’s all that matters.
Plus , quite literally all professional astronomy is remote
Exactly. I bet Trevor wishes he had come up with a different channel name than AstroBackyard. Now he's stuck in his backyard.
Trevor who…?
@@woody5109 Surely you are kidding? Or just not into astrophotography.
After Trevor's video I am investigating sending my setup to a remote dark site. I live in a perpetually wet, cloudy, windy part of the world.
So travel to a dark location and take the images yourself. Sending your equipment to someone else to set up and maintain means you are sharing the image and you will never be able to take full credit for any image.
@@Paul_85- you must be fun at parties
@@Paul_85- you are not sharing anything when you are in remote. your setup is just far from home but it is still your setup, your computer, your images. nobody can access it
Live in the UK Daniel?
@@RobBarter you would think so! But not quite that bad, Southern Victoria in Australia. Everyone thinks of Australia as dry with clear skies, but not here.
When I saw Trevor's video..."No Trevor, it's not cheating." Having a permanent setup even just in my Bortle 5 backyard has unlocked so many new aspects of astrophotography. Dark sky permanent setups FTW!
No, Trevor is DEFINITELY cheating.
@@christopherleveck6835 Well, that's not what I was saying. Similar to what Bray said, I think there's plenty room in this hobby for however you want to attack it.
I would hope that @astrobackyard would maybe consider a follow-up video.
@@gregoberfield I took his comments as fun & tongue in cheek. I don't think he has anything to clarify.
Trevor and Bray are both great guys. Chill ppl. Trevor was just joking. He never was serious on the comment
I'm surprised that you get people complaining about your remote observatory with all the benefits behind it. And if people don't consider this as real "astrophotography" they are really delusional and honestly it just sounds like jealousy or feeling envious of the idea. This is an incredible thing you are doing for people who don't have the privileges of Dark skies and time to drive off into the wilderness. I'm lucky that i live in Nevada where i have dark skies all the time
We saw the same reaction from some when "smart telescopes" starting showing up. We still see some of the same attitude from visual only amateur astronomers. Folks just need to take a short break and consider the world beyond themselves before reacting.
Amazing that you’ve turned your passion into a fun biz! It’s been inspiring to watch your progress. Although I have a spot reserved, life does get in the way, and I have yet to send the rig out there. But it’s coming soon!
Thank you for having the vision to see a gap in what was available for those of us who do not have large budgets for astrophotography. And for filling that gap. I've had my scope there for just less than 2 weeks and getting thru learning NINA. You have a great and helpful staff and hope you continue on this path. Hope to have my "first light' image soon. Again, thank you!!!
*reads title, clicks video, immediately pauses video to comment* "Yes." *closes video, resumes living my life*
I am astrophotographer from sweden, Stockholm bortle 8. I stared on a balcony and now a house and backyard. I think ever one should enjoy astrophotography that what u like the most. Where i live u problably never get amazing data but taking photos i get out of the hobby. Falures, learing and always bad skises and tinker with my stuff i enjou but if i want get the best data i should shoot from other places but life is always present and this what i enjoy. I think every should do astrohotography that u enjoy and its no wrong or cheating. Its only what the kind of astrophotograher u are as a person. In sweden bortle 1-2 skies are rare. Up in the North of sweden. Think majority of pepople live in bortle 7 and up. This is a nish hobby and i think people should be more supportive to one and other. So many as possible should enjoy this hobby. Be kind one and other so as many can enjoy this hobby from theire situation and possiblities. Clear skies and last thing. With out the remote from bortle 1 skies we woulden the wonderfull Andromeda OIII Arc and other stuff.
Hey Bray! Look, I have been an amateur astronomer (more than an astrophotographer) for years now (not too many though, I started this on 2018). As you might recall, I live in Mexico City. Light pollution, air pollution, cloudy nights, and just a few clear nights a year, say, 50 would be awesome? So, answering from my perspective what you have been asked for (or complained about), I certainly can tell you:
1. Remote telescopes are not fun... C'mon people! I get the point that it is also fun to setup from skratch all your gear to prepare for a clear night. But not having the chance to take data and do your own research (I practice photometry and spectroscopy, and, yes, some astrophotography as well), that is REALLY NOT FUN. Not having the chance to support professional astronomers with their observation requirements, that is NOT FUN. On the other hand, I must admit that the rig I have on the rooftop of my home has been controlled remotely by me since more than a year now. I only have to pull the cover off, and I turn the thing on and control it from my "office" or my bedroom (exactly the same as I do with my scope at SF). I also want to say that going out to a dark site is fun, but is fun because you hang out with colleagues and friends, and yes, you do some astrophotography and visual astronomy, and you learn a lot from them. But you can keep on doing this if you want to, and at the same time show-off how cool your remote setup is. ;)
2. Remote is not "real astronomy". Most of the professional observatories, if not all, are ran remotely. This would apply to the very-so-far-out-remote-observatories just like Hubble, Chandra, Gaia, JWST... the data that they collect is "not real"? How so? So I am in this one with you too.
3. Remote is cheating. Guys, c'mon! This is not a competition... or is it? Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of astrophotographers are competing to get an APOD, for example. Or trying to capture the astroimage that would beat you, Andrew, Trevor, Chuck and Nico, plus Hubble and JWST at the same time and alltogether. But that is not the point. That has never been the point. As you have shown us: astrophotography is about discovery, to allow us expand our knowledge, to understand better, to enjoy... So, to have the possibility to have a remote location with much more clear and dark nights is a priviledge, yes, but is not cheating.
So, have a good one now, Bray. Next time I stop by with you guys and visit, please take doggy dog out in order to meet him.
Cheers!
Stop cheating, Bray! It’s not fair! 😂
I’ll be sending a rig out soon.
I work 12 hour days with commute on average. Sometimes longer. I don’t have the time and the energy to do it at home as often as I’d like. It will be fantastic to start a plan while at work, and just let it work all night while I sleep. I’ll still have a rig to set up at home for that hands on experience that we all enjoy.
Is using a digital censor cheating? Back in the day, digital photography in general was considered cheating. It was a HUGE discussion when digital photography debuted. Is using a telescope cheating? Should we be using lensless cameras and not magnify? Also, are mounts cheating? Shouldn't we be moving our lensless cameras with no digital censors manually? As technology advances, the 'cheater' comments and similar come out, but usually those people are emotionally reacting based on their own personal issues with the hobby.
I see the biggest value of your service is the dark sky. Others may see bigger values, but that is my perspective. Good luck Bray. I wish you all the success. You and your team have created something wonderful for thousands of astrophotographers.
Haters gonna hate, no matter who they are, apparently, and it aggravates me (for a brief moment only) when these types try to influence.
Thanks for defending your venture and yourself. All your points are valid.
Of course a “lensless camera” won’t work at all, unless it’s a pinhole camera 😂
You're forgetting paper and pencil sketches.
I dont know how it is cheating... forget the dark sky, just having a scope setup 24/7 and ready to go every night is worth it! I hate getting everything together and spending time getting everything setup.
You remind me of someone trying to tell us how to justify our addiction......
And i LIKE IT.
For me its like fishing or buying the fish. I like the fishing part and of course also the fish. But the fishing keeps me going. Its crazy what you guys are able to do there and maybe i am one of you guys some day but currently i am outside with my fishing rod.
Man don't listen to the nay sayers, if I could afford it my rig would be there in a heartbeat. Yes it is fun to sit outside with your rig but lets be honest we don't stay up all night we do other stuff while the magic happens. You have started something amazing and I hope to be part of it one day.
If I could afford it I would send you a set up in a heartbeat, I do have an observatory but here in the UK clear skies are pretty rare so I don't get out much as I would like to. The 3 RASA setup looks impressive although running one is a headache by itself lol.
Keep doing what you're doing & wishing you good luck in your venture but please where some steel toe cap boots when setting up the piers lol
I'm with you on this one. I'm in one of the wetter areas of the UK (Devon) and sending my FRA600+AM5 over is very tempting!
Bet Trevor is wishing he never made a joke of it now :) Those who don't get the joke should remember that the hobby is huge. Some people never look up to the sky but are more than happy to learn about how galaxies form, why Black Holes burp.... Others like to look thru eyepieces to get the "full connection", while others want images they can look back on in years to come and share with others. Most imagers will buy their own kit while a few may get the soldering iron out and build their own digital cameras (yes this did use to happen). Is buying cheating?...and don't get me onto grinding mirrors!
Me?...I bought and assembled my own rigs but then I'm asleep when most of the work is being done...is that cheating? I haven't had 1 clear night since August (I'm in Devon, UK) but I would never disparage anyone living in a climate more condusive to Astronomy (jealous yes, disparage no)....or someone with enough drive to improve their imaging opportunities. Few can emigrate halfway around the planet to Utah or Chile just for their Hobby. So respect everyone's own take on the hobby and wish me good skies!
This title directly after Astrobackyard his video is hilarious
You had me at this is my telescope....
When you sleep with your telescope in daytime. That is real love for astronomy and photo.
Well said Bray, I agree with all your points. I have 3 rigs currently in my bortle 5 backyard.. which btw is just under 3 hours away from Starfront. I just put a deposit down to move one of them to Starfront! The other two will of coarse continue to run in backyard on every clear night. CS!
Welcome to the remote imaging club buddy! :) Looking forward to your results from Starfront...seriously considering sending a rig there myself... ;)
@@scotiaastro Thanks Steve! I don't know how quickly they will get the scope setup once I drop it off. It will probably be a couple of weeks before I get out there.. so hopefully by late Nov it will be running. Pretty excited :)
James Webb telescope is quite remote and it does some very fine astrophotography.
Excellent points, I can relate to all of those points and have encountered them all on social media pages. I own my own little remote observatory also, housing 2 observatories on the same block of land in a small country town, located in the River Murray International Dark Sky Reserve in South Australia. It didn't start out that way though. I first setup my remote observatory in my backyard in Adelaide, a major city in South Australia. Under Bortle 6 skies I built the roll off roof observatory, created the means to remotely operate the roof and gear via the internet and then when the councils decided to install LED lighting which shon directly into my Observatory, I decided it was time to step it up and move the gear. (I almost gave up on Astronomy because of this) I can now operate the observatory from over 120km away and have it take the images for me. I am now setting up my Second Observatory with a much bigger setup, including a JTW Astronomy Trident-GTR mount. All this was done off my own back, no help from anyone, except to move the gear. You need a good plan, patience, lots of saving and a good mindset of the outcome you want to achieve. Anyone can achieve these goals I think. Hopefully in the new year the Observatory will become 100% fully operational. Thank you for your videos and good luck in the future with this gear, looks amazing.
Everyone’s got their own taste. To each their own. I want to hear more about your triple RASA, mount, the observatory, etc!!!!
Exceptionally well put!!!
It’s just another option to increases accessibility for many who would otherwise not give the hobby a go or give up because it is hard to find decent skies
This is such a good idea and project. Do you think you'll ever be successful enough to have some free "community" scopes for users to borrow using like a queue system?
Respectfully, for me, from my perspective and experience, the KEY is having a permanent observatory: the styple or type is not the issue, rather having your equipment set up, and aligned - easy to access - makes astronomy and photography super-fun. Remote observing - not for me.
God Bless you for giving us the opportunity to host our scopes at SFO
The main goal in astrophotography is to capture objects in the night sky
There are no rules.
We're we do it or how we do it is a personal choice. Whether it's done in a permanent backyard observatory or
Miles and Miles away at another location the end result is still the same
But so many more options of image gathering at a somewhat perfect location. For me bortle 6-7, tall 50-60 ft trees all around with no view of West sky and partial north, south, east
I own 6 scopes 2 mounts so I can still
Capture at home and fiddle with the set up if I want. People need to open up their minds a little more.
Good video response. Thank you! 😊. Re-edit someone said it shows bortle 2 on Google maps
The online scale is more general
Using a sky quality meter (SQM) is more accurate for specific location
I think the questions is not if its cheating, clearly its not, but is it fun for you? Im sure some people enjoy post processing more than tinkering. And if thats the case, why not have your telescope reside in a Bortle 1? I personally enjoy tinkering with the hardware, and even in my crappy bortle 8, having some fairly good filters makes it still possible to do it.
Thanks for the video Bray, There’s certainly no shortage of opinions in this hobby.
Would you be able to do a video on your triple Rasa set up and how you control the three cameras?
I can't wait to see the collaborations in the future. There's potential to make groundbreaking imaging projects placing SFO at the forefront of astrophotography.
If people are appreciating and exploring the night sky, it is all a great thing. Different ways to do it for different people.
Hobbies are all about relaxing and having fun the way you want to, not the way others say you should. I enjoy setting my gear up in my backyard, and although my images will never win any prizes, I'm still happy taking and processing them. I dont mind how other people enjoy this hobby, its entirely up to them as far as I'm concerned. Professional astronomers more or less always use remote scopes, some of which, like the Hubble and the JWST, aren't even on the planet, and yes I can see a day when amateurs will be able to pay to use space based mini scopes, won't happen any time soon but I firmly believe that at some point it will and there will no doubt be people who will criticise people for using them. The main reason I don't use remote scopes is financial. All of my own scopes are remotely controlled anyway, once i have them set up I select the target, type in the exposure details, gain, filters, operating sequence etc. press run and the installed control pcs do the rest, which is what you do with a remote scope anyway, the only difference is how far the scope is from the back door of your home. I live in an area of the UK that doesn't see many clear nights, so I am unable to be imagining anywhere near as often as I would like so if the price of remote imaging ever falls to something I can afford I would certainly take it up.
It’s all good. Remote allows more focus on processing and target selection, which is really most of the work. If folks miss getting outside themselves, just get a Star adventurer for that and let your remote rig crank in the deep sky data.
It's funny - remote astrophotography is the only option for Hubble, JWST, etc. Is that cheating? I do enjoy putting hands on my equipment, but when Trevor showed 5 buildings at your site with almost all full, I think we have the answer on this question.
Bray you make many valid points, I just got reunited with astronomy and because of the advancement of technology I bought my first ZWO rig. As you mentioned I don’t use it much because I live in Long Island,ny. So I have to save more money to buy another rig to send to you and have the best of both worlds. This brings up an important question to you. So my scope is zwo 65mm refractor which is great for travel, what scope should I be looking at for remote purposes. Regards Jim
What a great idea. A friend does mainly DSOs in her backyard dome, she loves sleeping while getting her data and processing later. I find this very appealing, especially as I'm usually in bed by 8:30 😀
It’s definitely cheating with three RASAs on a single mount 😂
Nice to shoot all your filters at once ....
@@christopherleveck6835 Im doing it to shoot all one filter at once ;) f/1.17 Oiii goodness
@@astrofalls Searching for the elusive oiii nebulas......
I have been watching you for a while.
Check your email. I'm ready to get started.
I must have sensed this was coming.
😂
@@astrofallsneed another 3 scopes on the mount, one Ha and two SII.
I drive about 200kms round trip to reach Bortle 4/5 in UAE - a lot of work to carry 50kgs worth of equipments - problem solving on field and driving back in zombie mode back home only to repeat it all over again for a week of relatively moonless nights. Despite that - I would rather do that than shoot remote. It’s not just about getting exposures easily via remote but it’s an overall experience of being out there with like minded folks and absorb the good vibes and aura of night sky. But to each his own 🤷🏻♂️
Seriously?! 😂
Why would someone even thought of that word lol
Yes, it's cheating. No, don't stop it; it's awesome. It's about the same level of cheating as using an ASIAir instead of a laptop and 50 programs. It makes it so much easier, and for those of us who are relatively new to the hobby, it would make it much more beginner friendly to not need to set it up every single time. I would love to get my scope out there, given that I only get to do astrophotography once a month, regardless of the weather. Unfortunately, I'm a wee bit far down in Aus lol
It is not! I have one of my telescope on its way there. It will be way more productive there. I still have a rig at home. Both will accomplish something different for me. I will have the best of both worlds!
I enjoy Astro images no matter where they come from. JWST, Hubble, Chile or the suburbs of London. As long as there’s full disclosure so you can compare apples with apples it’s all good. Personally, there’s just not enough hours in the week and I’m happy to wait for a clear night once in a while or sneak a Milky Way landscape in whenever I’m away but if people want to spend every waking hour making use of their remote investment, and can do that without it becoming a chore, why not?
LOL . Im laughing at the title , Because Trevors last words in his video was Cheaters ... lol .. with that said i still need to send my scope . I live in NJ under a light dome just a few blocks of New York View across the Hudson River.
Trevor was just playing around, this video is for all the people in the comment section that ragged on remote observing
@@astrofalls Yea i know lol .Trevor is funny
Bray - I'm preparing my rig for shipping down to your observatory and I have been trying to get a few questions answered without success for the past week. How do I go about speaking to someone at your observatory to answer my questions? It's a bit frustrating given the investment I'm putting into this that there is no phone number and no one is returning my emails. Appreciate any support or guidance you can provide. Best Regards
If I'd have known just how much money I would spend on having my own gear, and how little use it would get (due entirely to the weather), I would have gone down the remote astrophotography route from day 1.
It's cheating... in the same way that having an F2 RASA is cheating. :)
Or 3 F2 RASA’s! That’s definitely cheating!
😤
@@AstroBackyard hehe
It took months tinkering to set up my remote rig. I hate tinkering. I like shooting and being out in the skies. Hate troubleshooting. Want that shit to just work.
There's no difference, beyond distance, between this & connecting to a permanent rig in your garden with wifi.
So I'd love to place a telescope with you. However, I have 2 issues, and only one is probably solvable. 1) I read your T&C's and would not accept the word "marring" to be in the contract. Normal wear & tear for an observatory-installed teleascope, yes. 2) I have a TAK Epsilon130ED and can't workout how to install a flat panel and stay on a $150 pier.
Are those beauties in the background 11 inches? With 6200MMs?
Some people like to punch in the time. I always choose to press the popcorn button on my microwave.
I have great equipment. I just don't know if I could afford to ship it all! Especially my mach1 in one of those heavy road ata cases. Then I'd need to ship that case back! $$$$$$$$$$$
Just haters,,,,Ignore them
Dark skies are rare these days! This isn't cheating, it's a necessary and done out of desperation. Did Trevor start the newest internet beef? Is this ASTROBEEF?
I see the "cheating" argument as humor. I mean... Bortle 1 and 200 clear nights a year? To the average person living under bortle 5-6 with maybe 3-4 clear nights during a good month, it can certainly feel like cheating. Do I actually consider it cheating? Of course not. (Jelaous of the conditions is a better description). I still enjoy setting up in my backyard, so that's what I do, because that's fun for me. For others, opportunities like Starfront are excellent choices.
I count it as "cheating" when you pay to get an advantage, which is paying for darker skies and especially telescope live services. But the fact you made this and are out there with the scope every night would be different. My opinion of course as I will never pay for my scope to be away from me. Hell roro and cuiv do most of their shooting on balconies.
Definitely NOT cheating. If you want darker skies but don’t live in a great bortel zone and can afford it…. Go remote! I do however feel that the joy of this hobby is getting out under the stars with my scopes from home. The big downfall I see is that you pretty much have a fixed rig and swapping out gear takes a bunch more work. By imaging from home I can switch scopes, cameras or what ever I need in order to capture what I want. Different targets may require different gear and it’s easy to just grab the right scope, camera and misc stuff when at home.
I don’t know what the difference is between remote observing or somebody with an automated backyard setup that has everything programmed and sequenced in NINA and all the need to do click their mouse.
I only use Hubble images, I am that great of a photographer….
lol... it's pay to win. Some people just do not live in ideal conditions to do astro effectively and this is perfect for that. I have no quarrels about it but I like to be hands on.
Trevor who….?
Using any type of digital electronic equipment is cheating. Real Astro photographers hand guide and use film cameras don't you know
Erm, YES
For my current astrophoto project, I have already set up my equipment in the garden 15 times and then monitored everything all night. I respect all projects of this kind because this is real handmade astrophotography. Remote astrophotography where you just send a setup to an address and don't even have to set it up yourself is like having a webcam in a landscape and then calling yourself a landscape photographer.
Do remote setups produce good astrophotos? Definitely yes. But is it real astrophotography: in my opinion, no!
I'm doing Astrophotography from my balcony, only having access to like 40% of the sky (facing east) using a budget $1400 rig cobbled from used parts and stuff from Aliexpress that I assembled and modified myself. Astrophotography is not just producing pretty pictures - you could do that by just downloading and processing data from Hubble, Webb as well as myriad of ground based professional observatories that make their data available and it'd be exactly as valid as paying for data from something like Telescope Live. Astrophotography is problem solving. It's researching the gear and building a setup that you can afford and working against your and it's limitations. It's using the gear and taking the pictures yourself to the best of your own ability and improving your techniques. It's not clicking a button on a website which basically says 'take images of x nebula on y day'.
Now astrophotography where you build your own remote observatory but still control it as if you had it locally and you still chose all the gear yourself is fine in my opinion, it's only those automated telescope services that are actually cheating.
You are all cheating...try to shoot from insanely light polluted areas!
Yes its cheating, did not watch the video, bye, cheaters!
If you don't pay for and set up your own equipment dealing with all the problems and learning along the way means any data you get will never be your own. Sending your equipment half way across the world for someone else to set up and maintain means you are jointly sharing the data however for those who simply use a website to access and pay to use someone else's telescope/camera etc etc is cheating !!!! There is NO justifying this and anyone who does this did NOT take the photo and CANNOT claim any responsibility for the image. Obviously this guy will now always claim it's not cheating simply because he makes money from it.
No offense but this is the truth.
P.S absolutely love your photography and you seem like a really cool guy 👍🏻
Yeah, I agree partially.
Building your telescope rig and setting it up halfway across the world while still having it accessible through software the same exact way like you would have locally (so for example using N.I.N.A. and PHD) is totally fine in my book. Yes, you're not the one maintaining the hardware once it's there, but you still have full access and are controlling it in real time and you have built it yourself, meaning you know the hardware.
Meanwhile it's a completely different story when talking about a remote telescope service that basically does all the astrophotography for you and they already have their own gear which you never even see. Using these services you basically pick a target, schedule the acquisition time and specify the acquisition details (which is optional, some of these services can even choose all the settings for you). Finally you pay a hefty price per hour for the telescope time and you'll get your data once the telescope finishes the observations.
I think those services are "cheating", especially if you use the "full auto" mode where it's actually the remote telescope team that not only controls the telescope but also chooses all the settings themselves instead of using settings that you specified - in that case can you actually say "I took that picture"? No. You can't - the same way as if you took data from Hubble and only processed it yourself. You didn't take the picture, you never ever saw or interacted with the hardware that took the picture, you only received the data and processed it, that's all.
@@Undy1 the difference here is you don't set your own equipment up you send it to them and they set it all up. Big difference imo
@@Paul_85- Yeah that's slightly worse, but at least you still send it meaning you have bought it yourself and presumably tested it beforehand. So there's that at least.
The Daily reminder: Agena Astro customer service is a pure cr@p. Avoid.