As a very casual watcher of you two, you both seem much happier than you did back during the ending of thrones show. You two are the ultimate GRRM experts, it's good to see you in better spirits.
Agreed that the fakeout was a bit cheeky, but I'm genuinely glad that at least ONE character on this show can go on to enjoy their life in some tiny way.
I actually appreciated it, and was a really good narrative way to do a couple of things. First, the whole show is a great exercise in standing ‘real events’ up to the historical material it’s derived from. While I don’t think there’s an exact part in the book that matches up (forgive me - it’s been a little bit since I read it!), there are a lot of spots where the historian talks about different people having different perspectives of an event that happened, and this scene matches the spirit of this. In other words, the people / the historian knows of is that Daemon and Rhaenyra get married and Laenor happens to ‘die’. All one can do is speculate and draw conclusions that they plotted to have him killed. But it’s obviously more nuanced than that and the show does an excellent job of conveying that nuance. Secondly, we need a way to see that Rhaenyra is actually a good/decent person at her core while at the same time conveying the idea that she’s cunning and can play the game. This scene provides that opportunity. We need to be able to continue to focus on her in this light so that we can feel sympathetic to what she’s facing. It would have been MUCH more difficult - perhaps even irreconcilable - if she actually would have followed through with what we were lead to believe would happen, as Laenor is a good individual, and she truly seems to love and respect him. I enjoyed it!
HoD is truly riveting storytelling and cinematography, amongst so many other things...What hits the hardest is seeing how the beef is passed down through the generations. Specifically, I see Aemond trying to fit in, but has a hard time doing so, which I presume will attribute to his demeanor as "One-Eyed Aemond". Seeing the dominos falling and cascading effects each action has in live action only bolsters the source material so much more.
*DAEMON:* _"We could not marry unless Laenor were dead."_ *RHAENYRA:* _"I know."_ *DAEMON:* _"Let them whisper...We will know the truth of it, and our enemies won't."_ *RHAENYRA:* _"They will fear what else we might be capable of."_ *_"EACH OF US IS CAPABLE OF DEPRAVITY. And more than you would believe."_* - Daemon Targaryen
If I'm not mistaken Sea Smoke doesn't take a rider for 10 years or so. What I speculate is that Lanor his to fight at the step stones as he wanted based off last episode and will find death in battle and that could easily play into why Sea Smoke remains riderless for so long.
I Don't understand why there doesn't seem to be any repercussions for Aemond/team green "stealing" a dragon from the daemon/velaryon family? I would have expected that to cause a big commotion?
Could the show be setting up the fact that laenor is who viserys and Aegon are supposed to be sent to during the war? I don’t remember if the books mention exactly who in wasps Aegon and viserys are supposed to be sent to.
The Prince of Pentos was friends with Daemon and was going to foster them. Who knows what they do here on the show, though I feel they'll probably do something similar and sort out the age problem... well, for someone else, if someone gets greenlit to do the post-Dance erra.
Could it be possible Leanor and Quarl did a double cross? They made the plan themselves to run off to Essos themselves... Dameon probably thinks he is well and truly dead.
I loved the episode very much, however like you I had a problem with the fake death idea. It just seems so strange to me that daemon and rhaenyra would risk the legitimation of their children when her 3 bastards already created a problems for her ascending the iron throne ? And for what, for leanor to get a happy life !!! Now I am really worried about the ending of important and main characters in the show if they would like to give some characters a happy ending. Like I read about this leanor being alive in esoss theory back an year ago, I remember that I laughed and said it's impossible bec of seasmoke and the fact that his family was fighting a civil big war and he just set in essos. Now I am really concerned about daemon's ending since I read a similar theory about him surviving at the God's eye battle with aemond and going with nettle to live with her in essos also . I mean I didn't believe that he would have abandoned his son aegon, baela, rhaena and rhaenyra ( let's not speak about rhaenyra bec he's supposed to be hating her and that moment or cheating on her, whatever) and just decided to chill in some city in essos, but now after what they did to leanor, will they make that theory also with daemon as to give him a little happy ending. Btw what's your opinion on his relationship with nettle in the books, which story you believed, that she was his lover , his bastard daughter or they just have a father daughter relationship?? Thank you so much 🥰🥰
Did you find the moving of the assassination of Laenor a bit problematic, especially since they showed Corlis and family at the wedding of Rhaenyra (wife of their dead son) and Daemon (wife of their dead daughter) so soon after the deaths? I mean I guess Corlis was "pot committed" but it seemed unnecessary to move the assassination and the time frame seemed compressed. Adding Baela and the younger Rhaena to the blinding made more sense to me...although, I guess in this timeline Joffrey was too young? And I could be misunderstanding who is on the inside of Laenor being alive instead of dead...but it sure looked like the parents were distraught.
Was the expression "Sir Christian you have the NIGHTS WATCH" meant to be some kind of snide comment towards him? Like that he should have been sent to the wall for killing a person with dozens of witnesses?
Sorry to keep thinking out loud, but if you need to convince the world that you are capable of anything...everyone has to KNOW what you did...and that includes your closest allies...either Corlys and the elder Rhaena think their son is dead and suspect Rhaenyra and Daemon did it (because according to Rhaenyra, that was the point), they think their son is dead and hear the rumors that Rhaenyra and Daemon did it (which would have the same impact), or somehow they get informed of the truth? It sure didn't look like they knew...Maybe I missed something?
I think they’re trying to make Rhaenyra look morally better then Alicent with this fake out. Not sure how I feel about it but that’s what I think they’re trying to do. 🤷🏼♀️
Green is the color of House Hightower and a reference to the color of the beacon atop the tall tower of her family's seat in the ancient southern port city of Oldtown. When her house calls their soldiers and bannermen for war they change the color of the beacon on top of the Hightower to green. This tower serves as a seaside fortress and lighthouse. Hence their House words “We light the way”
At Rhaenyra's wedding, someone whispered that the Hightowers flag green to call their allies to battle or something like that. It is definitely the Hightower color, and Alicent started dressing green at Rhaenyra's wedding, after she thought she was betrayed by Rhaenyra and the king.
Excellent episode (mostly) of a (mostly) very good show (so far), but I am with Linda in terms of reservations. The show has been well written overall, and has treated the audience with some respect, however, I would say that 3 of the most pivotal and otherwise strongest episodes (3,5,7) have all had the biggest issues. 3-the Crabfeeder sending his army out of the caves, 5 - some quite unnatural exposition, 7 - Laenor Laenor is the biggest issue, imo, as it has its impact on the characters (Rhaenyra, Daemon, Laenor) and I can't help but feel it's because he is a gay character. They had no choice but to kill off Joffreyy. It would seem they worked hard to manufacture a way to keep Laenor alive, but even then they didn't set up why Laenor would do something so harsh to his parents (and so soon after the funeral for his sister). Even if they had done, so it wouldn't do much for R&D. We know that the showrunners are, let's say, open to having material impacts on the story and characters for real world (if twitter/blogs are considered real world) reasons, with the Velaryons , so I think it harder to believe it's not due to a fear of a twitter backlash. It helping Rhaenyra to be more palatable to 'normies' (many want her to be Dany s1-s7 mkII) is no doubt in their mind, but they could have had Daemon kill him or leave it vague. I still look forward to each episode, I just hope they stick to the source material and ignore the outside real world.
Yay Laenor story doesn't make sense. He was killed by a spurned lover in Spice Town. I also believe he and Rhaenyra didn't have much of a relationship as they spent most of their time apart.
I think the confrotation is better done in the show. And how aemond claims vhgar. Imo I don t mind the change with leanor surviving. It is ok. Because she is not involved in his mureder in the book...and leonor is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. We don t know if dragons feel their masters...or know where their rider is. But rhenyra being this perfect good guy is getting on my nerves
Leanor leaves with his lover? Why would Leanor run away from his family, his duty, his whole world? To do what exactly? Going around Essos as Mr. Nobody with his lover and live happily ever after? lol Furthermore, why on earth would he run now and not earlier? He's from the richest family in Westeros. He doesn't need Daemon's help and money in order to do that. It doesn't make much sense. Unless, of course, we can't have a gay and black character get killed on TV nowadays. God forbid. lol
I think there may be method to it, if it has to do with needing to cut a character in S2 and wanting to give Laenor the potential for a future role. But we'll just have to wait and see.
@@WesterosTV Maybe. But I think they run the great risk to write themselves into a corner here. Leanor in the story serves in order to give Rhaenyra's children the dubious legitimacy, and the consequences that follows. Meaning, his character has an expiring date, because once she marries with Daemon and the civil war starts, things shift to a whole new level. His supposed sons all die, so I don't see what role could he possibly have. He becomes a nuisance. Not to mention that, for all intents and purposes, Rhaenyra has two husbands now? Sure the others don't know, but we do. Are they going te let that little detail just hang there? Idk, at this point, probably is better if they leave him where he is and never him from him again.
Why do you say “Vag-are” (rhymes with bag), and they say “Vay-Gar”? (Rhymes with Way). Do you pronounce “Frederick” as “Frode-Rick”? Or “Bernstein” as “burn stain”?
We've been saying it that way for about 25 years now, and for at least a few years before we ever heard George's pronunciation. There's a reason there's no pronunciation guide in the books.
I didn't like these changes either for several reasons: 0 - The plan is plainly idiotic, too risky and with too many holes as you perfectly point out 1 - I find 0 logic on the reasoning "we have done something good giving this man the life he desires, but let everyone think that we are ruthless and killed him so everyone fear us". wtf!?!? so you want to think the Velaryons that you killed their son and grant yourself their hatred and animosity forever??? and everyone!! who would stand by their side?! like.... I don't get it at all. Seems like a poor attempt of grounding the changes they made in some sort of logic....but just doesn't work 2 - it implies that Leonor would agree to cause such huge pain to his own parents, which he seem to love. the Velaryons have been portrayed so far as a pretty close knit family.. 3 - As you very well mention, I felt cheated too! they let you think that Rhaenyra has a ruthless side to her when she feels she has to do something, but nah...she is so good, so soft, so kind. And I am not liking this direction either. it feels that they want you to side with her SO BADLY, that she can't make anything wrong. and I don't like that because it betrays George's spirit, as his characters are mostly grey, some darker than others, and you more or less understand both sides of a conflict, which is a big part of why we love his books and his work. This new good Vs bad feels much less mature.... I don't know. I completely feel Linda's complaints and I agree 100%. It all felt too childish and idiotic
I assumed the fake-out happened because if two gay characters were killed within a month of each other, one of them killed by his lover, people would have brought out the "bury your gays" trope again. That gets ugly and I was very relieved it didn't happen.
The Seasmoke question could be handled by Laenor dying somewhere in Essos some time before the Dance starts. I think its a fine change, and very minor. Don't be so persnickety! You can't kill ALL the gays!
Why not? If you are familiar with the Dance, you know a who'll lotta "straights" are going to die too. The Dance does not discriminate. Condal explained that what they did to Joffrey Lonmouth -- killing him -- was in in the books and that's the story. He can't say that there and then decide to say, "Yeah, it was in the story but..." in this case. And yes, that may resolve the Seasmoke question. We'll have to wait and see if the dragon is mentioned again.
![[Live สด] การออกรางวัลสลากกินแบ่งรัฐบาล งวดวันที่ 16 พฤศจิกายน 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wPd7VFfWHIA/mqdefault.jpg)
As a very casual watcher of you two, you both seem much happier than you did back during the ending of thrones show. You two are the ultimate GRRM experts, it's good to see you in better spirits.
Thanks! Good to see an adaptation we're enjoying again!
Agreed that the fakeout was a bit cheeky, but I'm genuinely glad that at least ONE character on this show can go on to enjoy their life in some tiny way.
If you think this has a happy ending... well, you know the saying.
I actually appreciated it, and was a really good narrative way to do a couple of things. First, the whole show is a great exercise in standing ‘real events’ up to the historical material it’s derived from. While I don’t think there’s an exact part in the book that matches up (forgive me - it’s been a little bit since I read it!), there are a lot of spots where the historian talks about different people having different perspectives of an event that happened, and this scene matches the spirit of this. In other words, the people / the historian knows of is that Daemon and Rhaenyra get married and Laenor happens to ‘die’. All one can do is speculate and draw conclusions that they plotted to have him killed. But it’s obviously more nuanced than that and the show does an excellent job of conveying that nuance.
Secondly, we need a way to see that Rhaenyra is actually a good/decent person at her core while at the same time conveying the idea that she’s cunning and can play the game. This scene provides that opportunity. We need to be able to continue to focus on her in this light so that we can feel sympathetic to what she’s facing. It would have been MUCH more difficult - perhaps even irreconcilable - if she actually would have followed through with what we were lead to believe would happen, as Laenor is a good individual, and she truly seems to love and respect him.
I enjoyed it!
HoD is truly riveting storytelling and cinematography, amongst so many other things...What hits the hardest is seeing how the beef is passed down through the generations. Specifically, I see Aemond trying to fit in, but has a hard time doing so, which I presume will attribute to his demeanor as "One-Eyed Aemond".
Seeing the dominos falling and cascading effects each action has in live action only bolsters the source material so much more.
A true dragon taming and a Valyrian wedding 😲 This show is showing so much respect to GRRM's world 💯
It was a fun episode. That Leanor bait and switch though
Maybe Seasmoke will go to Dragonstone like in the books and stays there, and Laenor comes back as his bastard and rides it.
You're brilliant guys. If you had more time for commentary I know I would :)
Seasmoke has to get another rider. A loyal one.
*DAEMON:* _"We could not marry unless Laenor were dead."_
*RHAENYRA:* _"I know."_
*DAEMON:* _"Let them whisper...We will know the truth of it, and our enemies won't."_
*RHAENYRA:* _"They will fear what else we might be capable of."_
*_"EACH OF US IS CAPABLE OF DEPRAVITY. And more than you would believe."_* - Daemon Targaryen
If I'm not mistaken Sea Smoke doesn't take a rider for 10 years or so. What I speculate is that Lanor his to fight at the step stones as he wanted based off last episode and will find death in battle and that could easily play into why Sea Smoke remains riderless for so long.
I Don't understand why there doesn't seem to be any repercussions for Aemond/team green "stealing" a dragon from the daemon/velaryon family? I would have expected that to cause a big commotion?
*QARL:* "What are you asking of me, m'lord?"
*DAEMON:* _"A quick death. One with witnesses"_
*No witnesses.* 👁🕯
LOL
The young boy saw them fighting. That's enough.
Could the show be setting up the fact that laenor is who viserys and Aegon are supposed to be sent to during the war? I don’t remember if the books mention exactly who in wasps Aegon and viserys are supposed to be sent to.
The Prince of Pentos was friends with Daemon and was going to foster them. Who knows what they do here on the show, though I feel they'll probably do something similar and sort out the age problem... well, for someone else, if someone gets greenlit to do the post-Dance erra.
considering the other person's foggy or disputed origins, I wouldnt be surprised if they did that.
Is your Interview with Ryan Condal going to be published on this channel?
No, while we conducted it on Zoom, we have released it only as written.
Could it be possible Leanor and Quarl did a double cross? They made the plan themselves to run off to Essos themselves... Dameon probably thinks he is well and truly dead.
I have only one question: Where’s Daeron?
Squiring in Hightower
I loved the episode very much, however like you I had a problem with the fake death idea. It just seems so strange to me that daemon and rhaenyra would risk the legitimation of their children when her 3 bastards already created a problems for her ascending the iron throne ? And for what, for leanor to get a happy life !!!
Now I am really worried about the ending of important and main characters in the show if they would like to give some characters a happy ending. Like I read about this leanor being alive in esoss theory back an year ago, I remember that I laughed and said it's impossible bec of seasmoke and the fact that his family was fighting a civil big war and he just set in essos. Now I am really concerned about daemon's ending since I read a similar theory about him surviving at the God's eye battle with aemond and going with nettle to live with her in essos also . I mean I didn't believe that he would have abandoned his son aegon, baela, rhaena and rhaenyra ( let's not speak about rhaenyra bec he's supposed to be hating her and that moment or cheating on her, whatever) and just decided to chill in some city in essos, but now after what they did to leanor, will they make that theory also with daemon as to give him a little happy ending.
Btw what's your opinion on his relationship with nettle in the books, which story you believed, that she was his lover , his bastard daughter or they just have a father daughter relationship??
Thank you so much 🥰🥰
Did you find the moving of the assassination of Laenor a bit problematic, especially since they showed Corlis and family at the wedding of Rhaenyra (wife of their dead son) and Daemon (wife of their dead daughter) so soon after the deaths? I mean I guess Corlis was "pot committed" but it seemed unnecessary to move the assassination and the time frame seemed compressed. Adding Baela and the younger Rhaena to the blinding made more sense to me...although, I guess in this timeline Joffrey was too young? And I could be misunderstanding who is on the inside of Laenor being alive instead of dead...but it sure looked like the parents were distraught.
Was the expression "Sir Christian you have the NIGHTS WATCH" meant to be some kind of snide comment towards him? Like that he should have been sent to the wall for killing a person with dozens of witnesses?
Didn't read it that way, but a funny thought.
*_FIRST BLOOD ‼️_*
⬛ vs. 🟩
Sorry to keep thinking out loud, but if you need to convince the world that you are capable of anything...everyone has to KNOW what you did...and that includes your closest allies...either Corlys and the elder Rhaena think their son is dead and suspect Rhaenyra and Daemon did it (because according to Rhaenyra, that was the point), they think their son is dead and hear the rumors that Rhaenyra and Daemon did it (which would have the same impact), or somehow they get informed of the truth? It sure didn't look like they knew...Maybe I missed something?
I think they’re trying to make Rhaenyra look morally better then Alicent with this fake out. Not sure how I feel about it but that’s what I think they’re trying to do. 🤷🏼♀️
I keep forgetting how the colors ‘black’ and ‘green’ were assigned. Rhaenryas black for Targaryen sure but why is Alicent green?
She wore a green dress during the wedding of Laenor and Rhaenyra - a green flame at the Hightower in Oldtown usually signifies they are going to war
Green is a Hightower colour, something something tower burns with green flame
Green dress worn by the queen
Green is the color of House Hightower and a reference to the color of the beacon atop the tall tower of her family's seat in the ancient southern port city of Oldtown. When her house calls their soldiers and bannermen for war they change the color of the beacon on top of the Hightower to green. This tower serves as a seaside fortress and lighthouse. Hence their House words “We light the way”
At Rhaenyra's wedding, someone whispered that the Hightowers flag green to call their allies to battle or something like that. It is definitely the Hightower color, and Alicent started dressing green at Rhaenyra's wedding, after she thought she was betrayed by Rhaenyra and the king.
Excellent episode (mostly) of a (mostly) very good show (so far), but I am with Linda in terms of reservations.
The show has been well written overall, and has treated the audience with some respect, however, I would say that 3 of the most pivotal and otherwise strongest episodes (3,5,7) have all had the biggest issues. 3-the Crabfeeder sending his army out of the caves, 5 - some quite unnatural exposition, 7 - Laenor
Laenor is the biggest issue, imo, as it has its impact on the characters (Rhaenyra, Daemon, Laenor) and I can't help but feel it's because he is a gay character. They had no choice but to kill off Joffreyy. It would seem they worked hard to manufacture a way to keep Laenor alive, but even then they didn't set up why Laenor would do something so harsh to his parents (and so soon after the funeral for his sister). Even if they had done, so it wouldn't do much for R&D.
We know that the showrunners are, let's say, open to having material impacts on the story and characters for real world (if twitter/blogs are considered real world) reasons, with the Velaryons , so I think it harder to believe it's not due to a fear of a twitter backlash.
It helping Rhaenyra to be more palatable to 'normies' (many want her to be Dany s1-s7 mkII) is no doubt in their mind, but they could have had Daemon kill him or leave it vague.
I still look forward to each episode, I just hope they stick to the source material and ignore the outside real world.
Yay Laenor story doesn't make sense. He was killed by a spurned lover in Spice Town. I also believe he and Rhaenyra didn't have much of a relationship as they spent most of their time apart.
I think the confrotation is better done in the show. And how aemond claims vhgar. Imo
I don t mind the change with leanor surviving. It is ok. Because she is not involved in his mureder in the book...and leonor is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.
We don t know if dragons feel their masters...or know where their rider is.
But rhenyra being this perfect good guy is getting on my nerves
Leanor leaves with his lover? Why would Leanor run away from his family, his duty, his whole world? To do what exactly? Going around Essos as Mr. Nobody with his lover and live happily ever after? lol Furthermore, why on earth would he run now and not earlier? He's from the richest family in Westeros. He doesn't need Daemon's help and money in order to do that. It doesn't make much sense. Unless, of course, we can't have a gay and black character get killed on TV nowadays. God forbid. lol
I think there may be method to it, if it has to do with needing to cut a character in S2 and wanting to give Laenor the potential for a future role. But we'll just have to wait and see.
@@WesterosTV Maybe. But I think they run the great risk to write themselves into a corner here. Leanor in the story serves in order to give Rhaenyra's children the dubious legitimacy, and the consequences that follows. Meaning, his character has an expiring date, because once she marries with Daemon and the civil war starts, things shift to a whole new level. His supposed sons all die, so I don't see what role could he possibly have. He becomes a nuisance. Not to mention that, for all intents and purposes, Rhaenyra has two husbands now? Sure the others don't know, but we do. Are they going te let that little detail just hang there? Idk, at this point, probably is better if they leave him where he is and never him from him again.
Why do you say “Vag-are” (rhymes with bag), and they say “Vay-Gar”? (Rhymes with Way). Do you pronounce “Frederick” as “Frode-Rick”? Or “Bernstein” as “burn stain”?
We've been saying it that way for about 25 years now, and for at least a few years before we ever heard George's pronunciation. There's a reason there's no pronunciation guide in the books.
@@WesterosTV so “Igor” is “Eye Gore”?
If it was “Vaygar” there would be a “ae” like in all other Valyrian names with that sound.
I didn't like these changes either for several reasons:
0 - The plan is plainly idiotic, too risky and with too many holes as you perfectly point out
1 - I find 0 logic on the reasoning "we have done something good giving this man the life he desires, but let everyone think that we are ruthless and killed him so everyone fear us". wtf!?!? so you want to think the Velaryons that you killed their son and grant yourself their hatred and animosity forever??? and everyone!! who would stand by their side?! like.... I don't get it at all. Seems like a poor attempt of grounding the changes they made in some sort of logic....but just doesn't work
2 - it implies that Leonor would agree to cause such huge pain to his own parents, which he seem to love. the Velaryons have been portrayed so far as a pretty close knit family..
3 - As you very well mention, I felt cheated too! they let you think that Rhaenyra has a ruthless side to her when she feels she has to do something, but nah...she is so good, so soft, so kind. And I am not liking this direction either. it feels that they want you to side with her SO BADLY, that she can't make anything wrong. and I don't like that because it betrays George's spirit, as his characters are mostly grey, some darker than others, and you more or less understand both sides of a conflict, which is a big part of why we love his books and his work. This new good Vs bad feels much less mature....
I don't know. I completely feel Linda's complaints and I agree 100%. It all felt too childish and idiotic
Rhaenyra and Daemon kill an innocent guy as part of their plan. That makes them irredeemable in my eyes.
I assumed the fake-out happened because if two gay characters were killed within a month of each other, one of them killed by his lover, people would have brought out the "bury your gays" trope again. That gets ugly and I was very relieved it didn't happen.
So "valar morghulis" only applies to straight people now? :D
The Seasmoke question could be handled by Laenor dying somewhere in Essos some time before the Dance starts.
I think its a fine change, and very minor. Don't be so persnickety! You can't kill ALL the gays!
Why not? If you are familiar with the Dance, you know a who'll lotta "straights" are going to die too. The Dance does not discriminate.
Condal explained that what they did to Joffrey Lonmouth -- killing him -- was in in the books and that's the story. He can't say that there and then decide to say, "Yeah, it was in the story but..." in this case.
And yes, that may resolve the Seasmoke question. We'll have to wait and see if the dragon is mentioned again.
Well actually you can say both. Where is the contradiction in changing the story while also keeping a lot of things the same?
Is the cover of this book like the U.S version of World of Ice and Fire? The U.S version of that book was so much nicer than the U.K one
Yes, quite similar!