I’ve honestly never really wanted to play a Monk or Sorcerer, until seeing these changes come out. And now I honestly can’t decide which I want more as my first character.
Just to clarify, that still only applies to one target of the spell, any other targets still roll as normal - it’s not like BG3 Heightened Spell which applies to all targets. But yeah, it’s pretty strong on an important single target like a boss
@TsujiCross there's no way I'm going to follow that. If the spell is heightened, that means it's harder to dodge/resist for everyone. The only way it makes sense for one guy to to have disadvantage is if he's debuffed, not if the spell is buffed.
Kelly: It's less likely you're going to need to worry about your concentration or taking Resilient: Constitution... Sorcerers start with Constitution Saving Throw proficiency, so they wouldn't need that Feat anyway :)
@@riccardocorradini6713One lvl up cast for a sorcery point? Not worth it. I can do that with my wizard. The whole point was to twin that which couldn't be twinned (up cast) Between that and being a better counter speller in a game that has decided that any spell worth casting will be removed from creature stat blocks and the will get a feature that suspiciously looks and acts just like a spell that they used to know. This made a situational spell, at best, into a waste since you use a spell slot but they don't if you counter them. (DMs don't counter outside a BBEG fight)
@@nickm9102 considering you now get half back on a short rest once, i'd say it's very well worth it. You can save up quite a lot of value. Generating a 3rd level slot to upcast Hold person requires like 5SP. You can do the same with just 1 SP with twinned. Of course twinning haste and other crazy things was cool and strong, but it was also so good it was a no brainer, whoch isn't good balance. Now the metamagic Is much more balanced and has a fair tradeoff
@riccardocorradini6713 I'm not. I won't be implementing the unneeded and stupid changes to quicken and twinsoell, aside from the reduced cost. Fuck that. Boo WOTC
This isn't exactly new as Wither and Bloom from Strixhaven already allowed you to do the same. It is however right there in the PHB and it's a bonus action so it's still a good spell to have on hand
Wild magic looks so fun, the majority (like 3/4) of wild surge results are either positive or harmless, and even the most of the negative ones are not terrible. you can pretty much spam wild surges in combat also by constantly using your tides of chaos advantage roll while casting spells. Very excited to try it out.
In the 2014 wild surge table, the majority of effects were neutral, wasted your actions, or were negative. Statistically you were better off never surging. With only a 5% chance I did entire game nights, and even played entire levels where I never had a single wild surge. The only reason I took a wild magic sorcerer was to have some fun surges, and at the time only two choices were available.
@@dsc3275 Exactly! Someone finally gets it! The wild magic table in 2014 is far worse than it appears at first glance. There were some unambiguously bad options on the table. There were some supposedly neutral ones, but in many cases the neutral ones were only neutral because they targeted a random nearby creature, which could be friend or foe. Debuffing an enemy who's going to die in the next 2 rounds anyway works out to a slight advantage, but debuffing one of your allies can be crippling. And even most of the supposedly positive options are only positive if you're prepared to use them. For example, what good is an accidental teleport if you were planning to stay where you were? I would argue that about 3/4 of the options on the table lean at least a little to the negative, and I can count on 1 hand the number of options that are unambiguously positive. The wild magic sorcerer was great if you were in a joke campaign where being silly is more important than playing optimally. (To be fair, that kind of campaign sounds like a heck of a lot of fun). But in a serious campaign I wouldn't even want to be in a party with a wild magic sorcerer. If the new list is better, it might actually be a viable subclass.
I could paraphrase if you like? You can get your pact at L1, but your Subclass is delayed to 3, swapping them. You can have all or no pacts as they are L0 warlock invocations and you start with one invocation at L1. As a tradeoff you can get 10 invocations instead of 8 at the end of your training. You get a repeatable invocation that just gives you an extra origin feat. While origin feats are weak, you can take skilled up to 12 times as a Human and laugh with 33 extra skill proficiencies, or gain Lucky, Toughness, Healer, or Musician stacked up without costing one of your more precious general feats. A viable alternative to a skill rogue or bard. I'm loving the idea of a Sherlock Holmes who can cast speak with dead at will for free. Pact of the Blade is very good, even if it doesn't give you weapon mastery. Ultimately still get smite, but you also have up to 3 attacks, which can lifesteal as usual with further invocations. You also attack and deal damage with Charisma if you prefere by default. You can change its damage type to radiant, necrotic, or psychic at will. You can no longer shunt a bonded physical weapon to an extradimentional space however. You can still summon or desummon a manifested one. The weapon counts as a spellcasting focus if you want to summon a greataxe or polearm, or "attune" your bond to a longbow. Pact of the chain is mostly unchanged, but you can have a lot more options for your familiar, like a medium size skeleton, or a flying tiny magic sphinx, etc. Plus Find famillar buff makes it very strong in that regard compared to old familiars, since seeing through its eyes no longer renders you blind and deaf, and is a bonus action. Yes, you can use an invisible familiar as a spotter to Sacred Flame through a solid wall providing full cover. Pact of the Tome however is basicly useless. Your hard locked like the ritual caster feat to L1 rituals ONLY same as ritual caster. It no longer allows any L2+ ritual spell based off 1/2 your warlock level. Of the ritual spells not already available as invocations, or on your class spell list which can be cast ritually if you know them, 4 are on the cleric list and only Alarm is missing. You're better off taking a single level of cleric for Medium, heavy and shield armour proficiency, proficiency in all martial weapons, the same number of bonus cantrips (though these must be on the cleric list), 4 out of the 5 ritual spells you didnt know prepared for free, and one more L1 spell slot a day, two total, compared to the single L1 PotT invocation's bonus spell slot. As to basic QOL changes? You get half your spell slots back once a long rest when you take a 1 minute ritual breather starting L2. Major improvement given most of your life is sitting at 2 spells a short rest. Your capstone ability just makes it all spells instead of half at L20 upgrading this, so no change. Your agonizing blast is now applicable to any cantrip of your choice, thus allowing design flexibility. Its also a repeatable invocation so you can become a cantrip master. I'm personally looking forward to making a Celestial Bladepact warlock using Agonised Burst of Radiance and Green-flame Blade, just for the giggles. Also Eldritch Spear can apply to any cantrip with a range over 10'. Also repeatable. +30' per warlock level adding from 30-600' to the range. Sadly they planned ahead enough for the 10' min range provisor. No 610' radiant burst hammer ground pounding warlock for me. :) Finally NO "Cast X spell with a warlock spell slot" junk. While the list of spells available is a little more restricted they're all "You can cast X without a spell slot". No limit per day. Just whenever you want. At will. Plus all the subclass spell lists are prepared. Automaticly. Just bonus spells known giving you the warlock more spells known than before. As for subclasses? Celestial, no real change. But your Celestial resillience also gives temp HP when you use your L2 ability to regain 1/2 spell slots, as well as short rests. Needed since musician origin feat does the same thing as the L10 subclass ability on a rest so its isnt completely useless. Probably still the weakest subclass. Still my favorite. Fiend is mostly the same but Hurl Through Hell is a lot stronger. You can now regain temp HP from Dark One's Blessing if the enemy just dies within 10'. No more killstealing required. You benefit from your allies work. Archfey? Complete change. Now its a Misty Step class. Multiple free uses a day (which ofc dont block a Magic/Spellcast action). The spell can cast as a reaction after L6, and whenever you TP you get a 2ndary bonus. Temp HP gain, Taunt those you left behind so they cant hit allies accurately, Become invisible until the start of your next turn, or 2D10 psychic AOE at your arrival or departure point. Great Old one? Arguably now one of the strongest dueling single targets. More Cthulhu mind warping eldritch horror themed than before. Telepathy is now infinite uses, and later you can make them make a willsave and on failure you get advantage on all attacks aginst them and they have disadvantage on all attacks against you as you read their mind and dodge with foresight. Improved hex also disadvantages their saves in adition to ability checks. You can summon aberation... except unique to this calss you can summon a version without concentration. Done this way drops its duration to 1 minute. For you, the abberation has bonus HP and if it strikes your hexed target, deals bonus damage equal to the spell. Finally the kicker? ALL illusion and enchantment spells you cast are subtle (no verbal or somantic componets) and at will you can change any damage any of your spells do to psychic.
Oddly enough the thing I’m most looking forward to now is the new Sorcerous Burst cantrip. The choice of damage type and damage boost possibility feels very sorcerer to me.
Looking forward to? Just home brew it into your campaign. I've already added all the new/updated spells and feats into beyond. Everything's on the internet already. Just copy and paste. EZ
I don't know if I'd take it. Fire Bolt is a d10 damage. Toll of the Dead is d10, but d12 on a wounded creature. On the new cantrip, the damage is less and the chance of getting an extra d8 damage is only 12.5%. in the long run, these other can trips will do more damage.
@dsc3275 if you do the math. (I haven't, but other TH-camrs have.) It does the same damage as fire bolt over the corse of a campaign because of the chance of exploding dice. You can't compare it to Toll the Dead since Sorcerers don't get access to Toll the Dead, and it's a saving throw cantrip, not a to hit cantrip. They aren't even in the same class of cantrip.
@@chrisg8989 well technically firebolt does just under a half point more damage on average. But I’m with you, a half point of damage is a small price to pay for the fun of the exploding damage and even mechanically seems a fair deal with the choice of damage types.
Homebrew idea for Twin Spell since being able to modify spells is kinda a Sorcerer's thing. If the spell can normally be up-cast to target additional creatures, it costs 1 Sorcery Point to target an additional creature. If the spell normally cannot target additional creatures via up-casting then it costs the base spell's level in Sorcery Points.
That's a nice way to blend the 2014 and 2024 rules, keeping them backwards compatible as they said the books would be. As one that plays sorcerers as my favorite class, I would welcome your idea.
@@nickm9102 No negativity here my dude. The data showed that humans were the most popular species and martials needed an update. Only natural that those things got buffed. And while the change to twin spell sucks it is not the end of the world and is a minor thing in comparison to all the upgrades Sorcerer got. But if you think playing a support character is some how bad then you my friend are not playing them properly.
@@RoninXDarknight I don't have a problem with support characters if that is what you want to play. My issue is that, at least to me, it seems like rather than elevating the martials to caster (A false need that I have given mechanical evidence to on several other videos) they took the majority of the creative options for casters and created rules or mechanics to remove that creativity. All the arguments about casters being stronger than Martials, I only saw it when it was by player design. I played with a guy who apologized for his build because it wasn't a damage focus... But he couldn't roll below a something like 19 on his "weak skills" for that game I was playing a Warlock that was a sniper and siege weapon (600ft Eldridge Blast and an instant fortress and staff of the Magi for the big casts) and I was the third strongest for consistent damage. I am looking forward to playing my wizard when the 2024 PHB is released but it has nothing to do with liking the ruleset. I am looking forward to it because I'm in a campaign that is planned for lvl 20 and I want to try the conjure minor elementals/any multiple attack ability. I want to try it myself once before they errata it out of the game.
Honestly the only thing I’m disappointed with the sorcerer is the subclass choices. I think the 2 added previous ones should have been storm and shadow sorcerers. Those need a little more of a glow up in comparison and just fit the sorcerer vibe quite a lot.
I think of innate sorcery more like going super saiyan or more often Terra's ability in Final Fantasy 6 to transform into an esper form to become stronger. Terra, being an esper hybrid, is quite literally the only natural sorcerer in the world of FF6 This was said by someone else in the comments of a different video, but it also would've been better to have a new shadow sorcerer and storm sorcerer in the phb instead of clockwork and aberrant. Clockwork and aberrant are already good, shadow and storm needed the update
Colby of D4 is pro-Sorcerer now as well. Sounds like Chris aka Treantmonk stands alone in the Wizard camp. Agree (without book in hand yet), in actual levels of campaign play, Sorcerer is spellcaster royalty.
Treantmonk implied his stance was because of Conjure Minor Elementals when he was discussing it with Colby. If you don't houserule CME in some way it's really hard to see Sorcs comparing favorably versus Bard/Wizard
"Arcane Viger" works amazingly with "Bloodwelll Vile" item because it works on rolling hit dice not taking a short or long rest, so casting that spell will get you 5 sorcery point and some hit points👍
Animate objects**, Bane (DS), Bless (DS), Fast Friends (DS), Invisibility. Thats all I can think of that would be team based I'd argue that extra meatshield objests of the first spell is kind of a buff, right? ** depends on wording if twinned spell says specificly creature not this one cos it target objects. Not many damage spells come to mind. Just Chromatic Orb and Chain Lightning. (DS=Divine soul only: cleric list)
As a sorcerer fan I always thought the class was just completely gated from being good, they felt nerfed in so many aspects. 2024 sorcerer though, they got so many buffs I honestly feel like they overdid it lol, I'm really excited to play it
This critique of mine is similar to most people’s disdain for summoning a dragon over becoming a dragon in the draconic sorcerer but for the new aberrant sorcerer. I know it may be more busted than I realize, but I really wish the aberrant sorcerer’s psionic spells ability worked with all enchantment/divination spells they pick up-not just the ones in the spell list. It would have made up for not being able to swap psionic spells. I never liked having Arms of Hadar, Hunger of Hadar, Summon Aberration, and Black Tentacles on a psychic sorcerer when I didn’t want the far realm/tentacle flavor. Otherwise, I’d want at least some other way to mechanically support a non-tentacle AM flavor.
It's the direction they should have taken, but wouldn't because it would clash with the uodated Goolock. Despite it being the AM's niche first, it was clearly more of a design focus to make sure the Great Old One was successful. ...Also being able to pair stuff like Suggestion or Dominate Person with Misty Step can be kinda busted.
Out of combat the Wizard is still better than the Sorcerer thanks to the rituals they get for example Tiny Hut especially since they don't need to prepare them to cast them.
21:20 in my opinion that's how the balance always should be though. Between those two classes. The sorcerer should get to cast the stronger more potent spells due to them getting to empower them with metamagic. Cause it's a whole extra resource for your magic it should give you stronger spellcasting overall. and the wizard should have to keep up with them due to their deeper more versatile bag of tricks with their spells. And for the longest time the wizard didn't have to care about the sorcerer's metamagic. cause they could do almost everything the sorcerers could do and sometimes better. In my opinion this is how it should be. The wizard should have a little bit of a disadvantage that they need to make up for. Not a huge one. But it's there
Some part of me thinks that the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul got changed to no longer be able to change their spells because WOTC couldn't figure out how to get changing their spell list to work on DDB
You know when Monty is happy of the changes in a class. Yesterday, he didn't bother to open the book for the ranger. Today, the book is already open! xD
If you're having problems with summon dragon for draconic sorcerer, re-flavor it as calling upon an ancestor. Zero mechanical changes, improved hilarity as your great-grandpa swoops in and reigns fire.
Between wizards and sorcerers, I think the difference is strongly related to what kind of versatility you want. Sorc is better at creating on demand versatility, altering spells to better fit the situation Wizard is better in time spending versatility, as they can switch out their spell list daily and cast any ritual they have in their spellbook Honestly, I’m just really excited that I can play a sorcerer and not have to deal with such a small amount of spells known
The advantage of a Wizard is they can prepare spells based on their plans. A prepared wizard is very powerful. But the wizard needs to have a lot of spells in their spellbook to be able to use the point of the class. That is why I give Intelligence bonus per level per Wizard class level in addition to the other spells based on level. They can, of course, find or buy other spells to add.
This is a very old take on the wizard class. I don't mean that in a bad way; it works like this in pathfinder and previous DND editions. It's just not how most people play spellcasters in general, where you pick certain spells you like and use mainly those. There is also an issue with communicating exactly what is going to happen in the adventure day to "prepare" accordingly, and the fact that some spells are just significantly more powerful and applicable in all situations (fireball, hypnotic pattern).
Kelly just hamming it up and hammering home how good the sorcerer is like he just won a decade long argument and I love it. Good friendship vibes that it was done so well. Love it!
Note about Ritual Caster in 2024: It does not specify what spell lists you can pick the spells from. Meaning you can pick up spells like Find Familiar and other spells from spell lists other than the Wizard as well.
Yes, but it does specificly state L1 spells only. That's Alarm, Ceremony, Comprehend languages, Detect magic, Detect poison and disease, Find familiar, identify, illusionary script, purify food and drink, speak with animals, tensers floating disk, unseen servant. Already on the Sorcerer list is Comprehend languages, detect magic. Identify can be done with 1 hours study during a short rest for free. That leaves 4 on the cleric list, 5 on the wizard list. If you're a divine soul sorcerer you only lack the 5 on the wizard list... Is Alarm, find familiar, illusionary script, tensers disk, and unseen servant really woth that general feat? Its even worse for warlock. Their spell list only has 6 of these spells missing, and 4 of them are cleric. Take one level of cleric for medium, heavy, shield and martial proficiency, along with all 4 of the missing cleric spells, the same 3 bonus cantrips but 2 L1 bonus spell slots a day for the warlock. To rub it in, take Pact of the tome invocation for an extra L1 spell slot and all the ritual spells known, along with an extra 3 cantrips. Incidently Pact of the tome is equally nerfed into the ground, locking you to L1 rituals only.
With this nerf, Twinned metamagic becomes almost useless! Upcasting a spell one level and spending one sorcery point are exactly the same. The only remaining benefit I see is if you want to upcast one level above the highest spell slot you have -- either because you ran out of your higher-level spell slots or you aren't yet able to cast at levels that high.
1 sorcery point to upcast a 4th level spell as 5th level spell, or a 5th level spell into a 6th level spell is a *bargain*. As we said, it's REALLY good on Mind Whip, Banishment, and Hold Monster
@@bigdream_dreambig Higher level spell slots are more valuable. A character only gets 2-3 5th level slots, and for most of the campaign only gets 1 6th level slot. Using Hold Monster as an example. If we want to affect two targets, we can either choose to use a 6th level spell slot, OR with twin spell we can use a 5th level slot and 1 sorcery point. Personally, I would rather use the 5th level slot and 1 sorcery point, and save the 6th level slot for an actual 6th level spell. We only get one of those for most levels of play. Or if you're a 9th or 10th level character who doesn't have 6th level spell slots, Twin Spell is letting you upcast a spell even though you wouldn't normally be able to do so. Hope that makes sense.
@@DungeonDudes Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I now understand where you're coming from. In my recent play, my most common twin has been level-2 Vortex Warp, so I feel that loss especially keenly.
I have always had fun with the sorcerers I have played. So much so that I have and still will allow UA sorcerer subclasses such as the phoenix and stone sorcerer in my games. I once played a stone sorcerer / champion fighter multiclass in a one-shot that was a blast to play. It was great. I really enjoy your videos and your perspective on the new changes. Keep up the good work.🎉
I cannot wait to revamp my first character with the 2024 rules, currently getting to use him in a campaign and I asked the DM if I could change his draconic subclass to the new one :D
Wizard still has the better spells and while they can’t prepare as many spells they can cast any rituals in their spell book. I think the wizard can still hold their own against sorcerers. I always felt like sorcerer was by far the better class to multiclass but I think straight wizard still beats out straight sorcerer. By a hair.
When you said that Sorcerer's have 10 more prepared spells than Wizards at Level 11, I thought you'd made a mistake and went check the Wizard's new Savant feature. But you're right! Savant only adds the extra spells to the Wizard's spellbook, but they are *not* automatically prepared. Womp womp.
The Wizard are not just strong because they could cast a hypnotic pattern, they are strong because they had access to the most amount of ritual spells in the game without the need to prepare those spells to use them. Your book was your massive toolbox of rituals, and your prepared spells are your combat spells. While Sorcerer is very strong now, and probably will be the next caster I wish to play, it still doesn't beat the on demand versatility of the absurd amount of rituals that you can cast as a Wizard.
To be fair... Sor and wiz have the same number of prepared spells. Yes wizards can consider their rituals as 'prepared', thats a total of 18 spells, a lot of which are almost never useful. The subclass spells of a sorcerer is around 14 they get prepared for free. There's very little difference in total spells if the sorc uses their personal spell selections to pick the rituals. The realistic comparison is they both have aproximately the same number of spells prepared, but Sorcerers get massive versatility from metamagic in exchange for a more rigid specialisation of role, while the wizard gets partial versatility from swapping spells around when they rest, and their class unique spell lists. In a fight, assuming no ambush, team sorcerer will always beat team wizard. Always. Out of a fight, the sorcerer is more likely to be unable to help solve the problem before them.
@@rogerexcell249 Actually the in combat comparison is between casting weaker spells better, or casting better spells vanilla. In 2014 no amount of twin or heightened spell is going to replace a force cage and all the quickened spell in the world won't compare to a simulacrum (if you afford one). I don't know what's in the 2024 phb, but apparently conjure minor elementals might or might not be broken. Judging by the UA version it's a self buff of 2d8 per attack roll per spell level above 3rd (so 2d8 at 4th level, 4d8 at 5th level, etc). Combine that with scorching ray and once again possibly no amount of balanced spells cast with meta magic can replicate that effect.
@@randomnobody660 Except Dispel magic (L3) destroys simulacrum (L7), and Fey Step or any other TP can get you out of force cage. I stand by my asseration that on average, 100 sorcs will always beat 100 wizards. Sorcs dont cast weaker spells better, they cast the same spells better. They all have the same number and level of spell slots. While some of the wizard only spells are very good, counterspell and dispel magic are the levelers. Also The sorc has the advantage here too as they can use a sorc point to reroll a dispel, counterspell or banish Ability check
@@rogerexcell249 Oh you mean in pvp situations? I'd argue the topic is about comparing the 2's usefulness in general encounter combat, to which the answer is unequivocally wizards. Pvp situations are quite different, but let's look at that. First, dispel magic destroying simulacrum is irrelevant because a feeble mind (or even hypnotic pattern) from said simulacrum will similarly destroy your sorcerer. In general both wizard and sorcerer will one tap each other. Except... Second, wizards don't actually get tapped. They have clone, or simulacrum, or contingency resilient sphere (triggered on being targeted by hostile spell for example), or arcane abeyance mote on a familiar, or shapechange, etc such that either they survive the tap or aren't the one being tapped. Third, wizards will generally go first. They have gift of alacrity, foresight, various subclasses that adds int mod to initiative etc. Failing all that, wizards have pass without trace, so sorcs without alert are getting surprised, and either way they fight on the wizards' terms. Sorcerers are very much not casting the same spells. The difference between the best wizard spells and the best sorcerer spells simply aren't made up by meta magic.
@@randomnobody660 I'd counter argue the fight going like this. Wizard tries to cast, but sorcerer subtle counterspells it. Sorcs subtle casts silence. and then quicken casts a cantrip that lowers movement 10' and getting a headstart on damage done. Wizard tries to move out of the silenced area. Insufficient movement. Sorcs casts twinned, empowered cantrips, then hold person or flesh to stone, or a spell to shove them back in silence (thunderwave, bigbys hand, or whirlwhind for example), or just walks up and grapples the wizard and stand in silence subtle casting. HP gap expands.
Kelly, I find your offer intriguing…. “Come to the dark side, we have cookies” Tell me, if chocolate chip cookies have chocolate chips in them… And oatmeal raisin cookies have raisins in them… Does the dark side have Girl Scout cookies with real Girl Scouts in them ??
It’s a shame they didn’t give wild magic sorcerer SOME extra spells. There’s a lot of flavour and power to be had in spells like Nathairs Mischief, Distort Value, Enlarge/Reduce, Enemies Abound and so so many more that have the essence of chance and whimsy whilst still putting the ability to choose when to use these effects in to the hands of the player instead of relying entirely on wild magic surges
Sorcerer has been my favorite class since 3rd (I'm not blind enough to say that I think they're the best, just they've always been my favorite). So this video is actually troubling to me, because I wasn't really thinking about upgrading to the new PHB at all, but now it seems like my single favorite class is walking reeeeaallllllly tall in it....
a few mistake or imprecision: Yes TECHNICALLY sorcerer have the subclass spell list that add to their spell knowns Except: If you take a 2014 subclass with no subclass spell list Then if you take a 2024 with a subclass spell list, those spell list (unlike the abberant mind in tasha) cannot be changed, so at best you have 5 good spells and 5 bad spells on those list, some of those list have no good spell. Let's take the Tasha abberant mind sorcerer spell list for example (since I do not have access to the 2024 update: 1st Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Mind Sliver 3rd Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts 5th Hunger of Hadar, Sending 7th Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration 9th Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis Arm of Hadar is a bad sorcerer spell, few sorcerer do not like being stuck in melee so no I do not want arm of hadar on my sorcerer DIssonant Whisper yes great spell; +1 Calm Emotion: no way too situational, so few instance where calm emeotion is useful in a campaign to be worth a spot on my sorcerer spell list Detect tought : sure can be useful if the DM understand the spell properly as a no saving throw lies detector (and prevent gruesome torture scene in game with sensitive people) Hunder of Hadar: concentration for 4d6 damage in a stationary location, sorry I much prefer casting twin haste on my rogue and barbarian and let them destroy the ennemy Sending: really why sending is even here, at level 6 I can subtle cast those spell using my sorcerer point. when the fuck do you even want to cast subtle sending??? I mean sending is an out of combat spell, so being to cast it no using spell slot is not a benefit and I never got counterspell out of combat Evard's Black tentacles: ok that a god spell offering some control but I hope your team have access to devil sight or blindsight in order to shoot monster inside the darkness and personally I hate having to tell my team: hey guy sI'm going to use Evard's Black tentacles often since it's one of my free psionic spell, so if you want to participate in combat you all need to grab a way to see in the magical darkness the spell create. And yes even the shadow monk need to grab devil sight, since the shadow monk can see inside his own darkness, not my darkness. Summon Aberration: ok yes a summon spell can be useful against those creature with legendary resistance +1 Rary's telepathic bound: same problem as Sending: I do not cast that spell in combat so it's not an advantage to have it on this list Telekinesis: sure good option when facing low strenght monster +1 So we got 4 good spells, 2 spells that do not benefit from the mechanic of the class and 4 bad spell that are either too situational or just bad spell for most sorcerer or are good spell but IF the party build around it
2024 Sorcerers flat-out have more spells known. A 2024 Sorcerer at 10th level has 15 spells known, compared to the 2014 sorcerer's 11. That's 4 extra spells that can be whatever you want from the Sorcerer spell list. Even if you don't like all the spells on the expanded spell list for a subclass -- the base sorcerer gives you more flexibility.
Sorcerer may be better control or blaster casters, but the wizard has them beat in versatility and utility. Wizards get ritual adept which allows them to cast non prepared ritual spells from their spell book. So any ritual spell does not have to compete for space on the prepared spells list. Wizards can also swap out their whole prepared spell list on a long rest. Sorcerers are for the most part stuck with their spell choices, only being able to swap spells on a level up. Wizards at level 5 get memorize spell. Every short rest they can prepare an extra spell they don't already have prepared. A diligent wizard can cater their prepared spell list to better deal with the challenges of the day. Be it social, combat or exploration a wizard can bounce between roles every day. A sorcerer on the other hand can not do that. Sorcerers have to take more care when picking spells. While they have more room for spells now its still possible for a sorcerer to make bad spell choices that they could be potentially stuck with. The wizard does not have that problem.
My favorite change is being able to reliably use wild magic. I played one in old rules and only got to roll on the table like twice in a whole campaign since it was rare and up to DM
Aren't the wizards supposed to gain additional spells on odd levels? I heard Crawford mention this in a video. Illusionists getting 2 spells at 3rd and then 2 more Illusions, then an extra 3rd illusion at 5, 7, etc? It seems like that's a way to get an expanded list (though I know the two summons have been added).
No, they get a spell book, and every level up once they get their subclass gives a spell in their book for free that matches their school specialisation. Its isnt auto-prepared. Sorcerers and warlock bonus spells from their subclasses are auto prepared over the wizard limits Without the sublcass spells a warlock has 15 prepared, the wizard has 22, and the sorc has 22, but sorc and war add all their subclass ones Extra too. The advantage Wizards get is they can ritual cast their unprepared ritual spells freeing some up, and they have methods to swap their prepared spells around when they rest. Technicly they have all spells potentially known with time and money. Wizards get flexible choices, but less spells ready, and vastly lower damage and flexibility. Warlocks get sustained damage from enhanced cantrips but fewer spells a day and vastly restricted spell lists. Sorcerers get bonus damage on leveled spells and other advantages with metamagic and "magic rage" and their subclass gives effectively unchangeable specialization. Wizard: most flexible and strongest out of combat. Sorcerer: most powerful in short fights or at their specialty. Warlock: most powerful in long fights due to build around ehanced cantrips. Bard: Best at support, with the games best buffs and debuffs, with the ability to pick some of the best spell of other classes. They compare on par between a wizard and warlock in combat, and have the skills proficiencies to be flexible outside of combat on par with a wizard. Basicly Bard is kind of a better wizard, but solves the problems with skills not spells.
Ok but is there a way to see what spells that can be twinned? Like a simple list, or an identify the spells on the full lists? I’ve always found finding spells that can/can’t do a thing or can be cast as a bonus action or whatever. It’s just a huge pain in the butt to find which spells require x y or z. You always have to look online or outside of the source to find these things and then add them to your character sheet (not that the game comes with character sheets now). Playing a drag Sorcerer currently, soooo glad the subclass got a long long overdue upgrade
To my knowledge so far: Chromatic orb, Tasha's Mind whip, Chain Lightning. These are the only damage spell it works on. Invisibility, enhance ability, Fly, Air bubble, banishment, Blindness/deafness, Catnap, charm monster, charm person, Command, Etherialness (very poorly), hold person, hold monster, Intellect Fortress. These are the only sorcerer buffs and debuff spells it works on tomy knowledge. Some require TCE optional variant casting rules to take. MAYBE (depends if it says another target or another creature), Animate Objects, Animate Dead For Divine soul ONLY Bane, Bless, Fast Friends
@@rogerexcell249 thank you. It would be helpful if that list was accessible in the book I am hoping that a complete list will be easy to find online as new spells and books come out.
? I double checked the wording on Chromatic orb, and I think you're possibly right there though it does say it can leap to an additional target with each upcast. See end paragraph. Did Chain Lightning change? Its upcast says. "At Higher Levels when you cast this spell using a spell slot of 7th level or higher, one additional bolt leaps from the first target to another target for each slot level above 6th." It doesnt explicitly say creature since it can also target objects.. if you only lept to a creature I'd argue twinned spell would work. It can still be upcast to hit an additional creature after all. I was under the assumption CO would be able to twin to hit an extra taget, but not do more damage. EG a basic level one can do 3d8 and hit 2 additional targets if enough 8s are rolled (rather than only 1 additional target) for 1 SP.
This isn't related to D&D 2024, but I remember you guys talking about wanting a fey sorcerer subclass in another video, and I thought of a way that could be done without it stepping on the toes of Archfey Warlock or College of Glamour Bard: a sorcerer born with fey magic such that fey creatures are naturally drawn to them and eagerly assist them in spellcasting. The idea would be that this sorcerer always has a fey creature near them whom they need for casting spells. Think something like the show _The Ancient Magus' Bride:_ in that show, magi cast spells by working together with fey creatures.
That's an interesting way to take that idea and feels far more feasible than what I'd have thought of. I would have taken it a "fey deal" route and you just borrow and trade abilities with things, sort of a variant blue mage type deal. But that would be very, very hard to balance well.
@@TerminalDevastation Thanks. Incidentally, another example of what this subclass would be trying to achieve would be Zelda in the upcoming Zelda game: Echoes of Wisdom. In that, she casts spells by working together with the fairy Tri that's always floating right next to her. To go into a bit more detail with my idea, the idea would be that the sorcerer can pick a fey creature such as a pixie, a will-o-the-wisp, etc., and that creature stays near them and helps them cast magic (note that they are assisting; they are not the source of the sorcerer's magic, but without them, the sorcerer can't turn that magic into spells). Unlike a summoning-based subclass, this subclass would be encouraged to keep the fey creature close to them and away from enemies.
Only a slight quibble but I feel like it made sense for Sorcerer to not get ritual casting. I suppose even now, they barely get any rituals anyway, but rituals definitely feel a lot more wizard/cleric/druid to me as a concept
That's silly and unfair to other players just becuase you think it's "fitting". The idea that certain people should get preferential treatment because of their chosen class is a terrible way to go about game design.
@@M9Seradon it's not very polite to call people silly, and i'd rather you didn't. Every class gets its own special features that make them better at something at something than others, that's not giving people preferential treatment, it's just making classes that are distinct from each other. To me that would be like saying that all casting classes should get access to healing magic, because otherwise that's preferential treatment of a select few classes
You could do the old cantrip spell slot one two, you just had to cast the cantrip as an action then quicken whatever spell as a bonus action. Mechanically the same thing, but I think this change is way simpler and clears up a lot of annoying conversations at the table.
The 2024 rules still require these same steps. The dudes must have gotten excited and forgotten what they said @4:48 (no leveled spells before or after quickened spells) and @6:13 (Quickened allows same pairings of actions & spells in the 2024 rules as it did in 2014).
My favourite aspect of Twinned Spell is that it allows you to break the pre-level-19 limit on casting more than one 6th level spell per turn. Twinning Hold Monster or an upcast Banishment lets you spend a 5th level slot and 1 sorc point to cast it at 6th level. Multiclass a 9th level warlock with sorcerer and now your pact slots can be cheaply boosted to 6th level for the purpose of multi-target upcasting.
with flavor & rp, I've always preferred sorc over wizard in 5e. and these changes make me even more excited to make my next full spell caster a sorcerer for upcoming campaigns with the new rules!
Excited for Warlock like a few of us here. I feel like Sorcerer will be the strongest but Warlock is still the most customizable and fun. Especially with way less punishment for crabbing feats they can cast more spells with Fey touched etc.
The main mistake in the design of Sorcerers was the too few spells known and too few metamagics available. It's great that they increased them both, but at least for Metamagics, they still come too late. At level 3 getting just 2 metamagics is very restrictive when metamagic is the main allure of the class and most metamagics are applicable for only so few spells. As a lvl3 player, having to play with just 2 metamagics all the way to level 10 which may be a few months away sucks. They should start with 3 metamagics and gain another one at lvl6, then gain another at 10, and one at 17 to the same total of 6 metamagics at the end.
I wanted to wildshape into a dragon but instead they gave us a pet. Like we are drakewardens. The draconic fantasy is about being a dragon. Not being friends with a dragon.
@@CharlesUrban I wish Rangers were treated as nicely as the draconic sorcerer, removing the need for concentration on your defining spell and an expanded spell list for a subclass that didn't have one because it was made before the change to include that
My first pc was a sorcerer, and it’s still one of my top classes! I haven’t played a sorcerer since that 2019-2021 campaign, and I can’t wait to try the 2024 sorcerer out soon!
Sorcerers are the best! My favourite was a Fire Genasi Sorcerer with an Artificer background (started off Artificer, went - this doesn't fit what I'm looking for - and swapped hard over to sorcerer). Made them less Fire and more Volcanic Sorcerer; Melf's Minute Meteors being my head turning into a volcano and then re-forging itself with lava.
I have been a Sorcerer main since the first time I tried one and I could not be happier. I am making a Draconic Bloodline Dragonborn Blaster for my next game and I am sooo excited!! Love your content, thanks for the amzing video. Can't wait for the guide! 🔥
I like sorcerer more but they are really just as powerful as a Wizard at the cast level. While a sorcerer can cast rituals, the Wizard can have all of them. While the Wizard has 16 spells it can be any spell even one you find on an enemy - Sorcerers get more spells but are relatively locked in. I think that unlike the Ranger, they got this right!
If your DM lets you use Items from 5e then that Arcane Vigor spell is gonna be really good for Sorcerers. There is a Spellcasting Focus for Sorcerer’s in Tasha’s called the Bloodwell Vial that allows it’s user to regain 5 sorcery points once per day whenever the user rolls their hit dice. Previously there were only a few ways (that I know of) for sorcerers to heal with Hit Dice and make use of this item, but now any Sorcerer can use it at the cost of a spell slot!
I have always been curious about the sorcerer especially the divine soul sorcerer. I love the idea of blasting enemies on one turn then healing allies on the next. It felt like the ultimate spell caster to me. Sadly, divine soul sorcerer wasn't brought forward. Yes, I know things are supposed to be backward compatible, but it remains to be seen how well that will work in practice.
Radiant warlock was brough forward, but they didnt change it beyond making its Celestial Resilience ability work on their Magical Cunning feature. But since the musician origin feat does the same thing and temp HP dont stack that was mandatory to make the L10 feature not useless. Sadly Celestial warlocks remain by far the weakest subclass. Bringing DSS forward would weaken you in a lot of ways because they did not get a subclass spell list. Rather they may pick a cleric spell when they'd normally pick a sorcerer one. IMO they'd still be useful for versatility, but they'd have lots less spells known that the 2024 variants. But adding cleric spells to the mix remains super strong with some of the strongest buffs and damage spell in game. Its a valid option for a party lacking a healing or support member, but you may have more fun as a smiting, martial Celestial warlock with radiant damage weapons and agonized green-flam blades. They get some bonus action healing and you could always take a Healer origin feat background. They'd get 12 cleric spells added to their spell list, with all of the critical ones like restorations and revivify.
You can play Divine Soul with 2024 rules almost exactly how it's written. The only change is you get subclass features at level 3. The subclass does lack an expanded spell list but with 22 spells known and how easy it is to get certain choice picks for free, you should be fine in most campaign settings.
@@M9Seradon Agreed. I dont think it would loose any effectiveness, and while it may have less versatility WRT prepared spells, it certainly will not lack for choice.
I definitely wish it focused more on giving us draconic powers. We should get all the draconic themed spells for free including that spell that lets you become a dragon if you want. If a dragon of our heritage can do it, we should have it.
Casting it is already a bonus action. The issue is that after that it takes not only your concentration it also takes an action each time you use it. That's why it's not what I'm looking for. What I wanted was a non-spell based bonus action to use concentration free breath weapon and I don't even think that would break the game.
I do love the upgrades to sorcerers (one of my favorites too)....but the ultra nerf of ritual caster feat means wizards get so so many great rituals (leomunds tiny hut, rary's bond) that a sorcerer can now never get I think makes wizards overall stronger class....although innate and metamagic make combat stronger for the sorcerer.....love that ythe draconic sorcerer can get charisma to every cantrip and spell at level 6!!!
If you take backwards compatibility you could be playing a Lunar Sorcerer with Ritual caster as a feat and get 90% of Wizard's best rituals while also having 37 spells on your base class alone AND metamagic...Wizard Is made to be a utility caster,Sorcerer takes the cake when It comes to combat (Even so Divine and Lunar,arguably even Clockwork,imo still have Crazy good Utility even comparable to a Wizard)
What infuriates me is Pact of the Tome got the ritual caster treatment: hard locked to L1 spells. Its litterally the whole point of pact of the tome: give access to wizard ritual spells and thus give them more spells options a day.
@@rogerexcell249 Yeah, i Guess Wotc didn't want to give out Wizard only spells that easily...then i Remember level 10 Bards exist but that's a different story. Bards,Sorcs and Wizards are probably going to be the holy triad of casters from now on, especially when a divine soul (hopefully they get an extended list too,getting them to be at 32 spells too) can cover both your Arcane and Divine spells needs basically having almost level 10 Bards versatility starting from level 3. I love Warlock too but i have to agree that tome did not receive as much love as other pacts:Blade now Is just crazy for spell-swords, Chain Is much better and gives a lot of fun options etc...Tome had some pretty dope stuff in its specific invocations like at Will sending and Death Ward for people whose name was written in the book but It feels a bit left behind...maybe it is Just recency bias but with the new Armor of Agathys Bladelocks look absolutely MASSIVE, and it is probably the first Warlock i'm going to play
It’s my and my wife’s birthday week, if you guys go 5/5 on videos I will be ecstatic lol. I know you guys did a marathon and the community really appreciates it.
I would get sorcerer for that cantrip alone. These changes make them sound a lot of fun with fun ways to mix up spells. Thanks for the video. Now I'm debating monk or sorc
Hey guys, quick question. In the backgrounds, there’s three backgrounds that have magic adapt and they each have a spell list in parentheses. But the description of magic adept says just pick a spell less. So, could I take the acolyte background and pick a different list than cleric?
I am curious about the Ritual Caster feat... with the new rules can you pick ANY 1st level ritual spell for this feat or does it have to be from your class spell list?
so if you have more than half your sorcery points before a short rest time to start swapping for spell slots. thus, in essence, gaining both sorcery points and spell slots on a short rest, pretty sweet.
I use Sorcerous Burst a lot, and actually have maxed out my exploding d8s on it one time so far. And while I don't roll 8s every time, it happens enough to keep the mechanic fun for me. Innate Sorcery helps a lot too, because Advantage on the attack roll means more crits, which means double the d8s to roll and more chances for them to explode.
Doesnt work. It doesnt target an extra creature, it makes an extra ray. Only chain lightning, chromatic orb and Tasha's Mind Whip work with Twinned Spell atm for pure damage spells.
I really enjoy your content about the changes to the game. I do feel however that you guys are putting to much emphasis on min-maxing classes. The element of the game is role play and problem solving. The battles are fun but learning how to use skills and abilities is a major part of character growth. I would like it if you could circle around to how the new classes approach these things.
The Sorcerer is my favorite class as well. I'll miss not being able to twin spell Shocking Grasp, Polymorph, or Greater Invisibility but having access to more spells and SP regenerating on a short rest softens that blow.
Wild Magic might be able to have three meta magics active at once. I saw the table somewhere at one point but can't find it. As long as the option for making all spells a bonus action isn't the last one. Tamed Surge would let you "bonus action" cast spells which could be considered Quicken, and then Sorcery Incarnate allows for 2 metamagic options on top of sudo Quicken.
Forgot to mention. I did like it before how you had to focus your sorcerer: be a blaster or bring support/utility spells, which is why I like druid because I coudl swap from day to day, but with sorcerer forced me to focus my build. But then agian, It would be nice to have more spells options. Makes sense. THough does that invade a wizzard's territory where they were to utility / know many spells class and ... Not sure how I feel about that.
When I first saw the changes to twin spell, I was super upset, but just like you guys, it feels lateral. but honestly there are so many situations that I see it being just better. Before I felt relegated to twin concentration like haste. Now i feel more open to actually twinning other spells
Sorcerer are my favorite casters, along with Druids. I think druid is a great healer, can be blasty (focusing on cold spells) and I do think they are my favorite class). Love Warlocks too, but I like the options you have. WIld magic is fun and crazy, storm and shadow magic are great thematic and I love the lightning/thundering sorcerer that can fly! Only played a storm magic, and started campaigns (they ended up short with party kills) for shadow and wild magic (wild magic was the culprit of a TPK when a fireball wiped the party... Yeah. we got fireballed at level 3... But I like the changes, and am excited to play my new shadow sorcerer. Maybe I'll do rune child.
I feel it's a tad strange to call simulacrum a "brief moment to shine" at lv13. Suppose the wizard finds the component to cast that. Doesn't the sorcerer just never recover past that point? Obviously you aren't likely to be able to loop it, but surely just having 1 clone is going to be allowed if you get to that level?
I was wondering that too, but then I think it is necause once you hit level 17 they are on equal level again. Simulacrum is extremely costly and has a cast time of 12 hours, it ia not something done in battle, but something you prepare and bring along. By level 17, no one would cast it traditionally, but would use the wish spell to replicate it, and use wish to recast it once it breaks down. On any day where you dont expend a 9th slot, you can get your simulacrum and that is the most convenient way to do it. So past level 17, when sorcerers also get wish, it doesnt matter having the spell anymore
@@igotnopatience1717 Eh. Only having 1 lv9 spell slot means sorcerers can't simulacrum chain alone for example. I get that's not socially acceptable to do, but if anything that illustrates how much stronger wizard is. This is not mentioning shape change, contingency etc. You still have chronurgy mariliths auto succeeding every turn. There's also the new contingency conjure minor elementals into scorching ray dealing damage previously unseen etc.
@@randomnobody660 I think simulacrum cant be chained anymore, the new simulacrum spell text says it dissolves if you create another and that the simulacrum cant cast it.
@@igotnopatience1717 Simulacrum always had the 1 per caster limit. The added simulacrum can't cast restriction arguably doesn't matter since the simulacrum is casting wish, not simulacrum? "The spell simply takes effect" after all.
I'm surprised you didnt cover Heightened Spell in more detail. Wasn't it's main change the fact it applies to ALL saves of that spell for its one-time cost (for one of it's targets). Cast Hold Monster banishment or Slow? ALL saves are at disadvantage until it ends. I hate the twinspell change. No twinspell cure wounds, or word of healing, or spare the dying. Sucks for the Divine Soul. Usually to gain an extra target for multi-target spells just upcast one single level. Not really worth the ability compared to the other options IMO. PS combine Arcane Vigor with Bloodwell vial. Have fun!
@@deadku6150 It certainly guarantees he's spending those legendary actions on resistance saves... but I think they might just get a certain amount free on top of their actions now?
i like Distant spell. It has saved my party multiple times already (on 7th session of campaign Vecna) being able to cast counterspell and silvery barbs with 120 ft range has been clutch
More spells available and Innate Sorcery makes me very interested in running a Divine Soul in the 2024 rules. Obviously Spirit Guardians functionality changes are a big deal here, I'm less likely with my squishy hp to be actively running into enemies, but with 20 Charisma at level 8 and Innate Sorcery active... that's DC 17 to save on all of those Cleric spells, and it bumps again in just the next level. Thats really cool.
I just want to point out Monty has lost some weight is looking good way to go man props
Seriously, bro looks like those early Dungeon Dudes videos again!
Thank you very much :)
Our boy has been putting in work, and it shows!
2014 Monk and Sorcerer: We don't have enough points to do cool things
2024 Monk and Sorcerer: We have all the points to do all the cool things.
I’ve honestly never really wanted to play a Monk or Sorcerer, until seeing these changes come out. And now I honestly can’t decide which I want more as my first character.
2 concurrent campaigns would solve that problem.
Genius idea dear Watson@@adamwatson9272
Agreed I like this part of it. The base changes are mostly good. I just think draconic could be more thematic by getting true polymorph and stuff.
They missed the fact that Heightened Spell metamagic also now affects ALL saving throws of a spell rather than just the initial saving throw
Yeah, easy to miss.
Just to clarify, that still only applies to one target of the spell, any other targets still roll as normal - it’s not like BG3 Heightened Spell which applies to all targets. But yeah, it’s pretty strong on an important single target like a boss
@TsujiCross there's no way I'm going to follow that. If the spell is heightened, that means it's harder to dodge/resist for everyone. The only way it makes sense for one guy to to have disadvantage is if he's debuffed, not if the spell is buffed.
Kelly: It's less likely you're going to need to worry about your concentration or taking Resilient: Constitution...
Sorcerers start with Constitution Saving Throw proficiency, so they wouldn't need that Feat anyway :)
Cool, then I'll take Eldritch Adept to grab the Eldritch Mind Invocation and have advantage on concentration throws :)
Unless you're multiclassing
@@armedkevin1178I mean, Warcaster is a half-feat now anyway, so still better.
@@SkaalKesh True.
I was about to ask if they aren't proficient in con anymore
heightened spell also mentions ALL saving throws, which is huge for spells you're concentrating on that requires saving throws on their turns 😍
Can’t wait to use that on sleet storm
Monty's face as he considers Twinned Hold Monster... I feel your pain!
It's basically 1 SP to cast the spell as if it were 1 level higher, but only for certain spells. I'm totally fine with that.
@@riccardocorradini6713One lvl up cast for a sorcery point? Not worth it. I can do that with my wizard. The whole point was to twin that which couldn't be twinned (up cast)
Between that and being a better counter speller in a game that has decided that any spell worth casting will be removed from creature stat blocks and the will get a feature that suspiciously looks and acts just like a spell that they used to know.
This made a situational spell, at best, into a waste since you use a spell slot but they don't if you counter them. (DMs don't counter outside a BBEG fight)
@@nickm9102 considering you now get half back on a short rest once, i'd say it's very well worth it. You can save up quite a lot of value. Generating a 3rd level slot to upcast Hold person requires like 5SP. You can do the same with just 1 SP with twinned. Of course twinning haste and other crazy things was cool and strong, but it was also so good it was a no brainer, whoch isn't good balance. Now the metamagic Is much more balanced and has a fair tradeoff
@riccardocorradini6713 I'm not. I won't be implementing the unneeded and stupid changes to quicken and twinsoell, aside from the reduced cost. Fuck that. Boo WOTC
@@nickm9102Also, I think mathematically a sorcery point is worth less than a spell slot, at least as far as the table conversion is concerned.
If you have a Bloodwell Vial, casting Arcane Vigor is a way to get back sorcery points in combat.
This isn't exactly new as Wither and Bloom from Strixhaven already allowed you to do the same. It is however right there in the PHB and it's a bonus action so it's still a good spell to have on hand
@@M9Seradon ya both are viable options, but I do know people were hesitant to use the Strixhaven stuff because it can be OP
Wild magic looks so fun, the majority (like 3/4) of wild surge results are either positive or harmless, and even the most of the negative ones are not terrible. you can pretty much spam wild surges in combat also by constantly using your tides of chaos advantage roll while casting spells. Very excited to try it out.
Friends don't let friends become wild magic sorcerers
I let my friend play a wild magic sorc and laughed as he turned himself into a potted peace lily 😅@@moonlight2870
I haven't seen the table yet, but yes, hearing this makes me want to play a Wild Magic sorcerer now.
In the 2014 wild surge table, the majority of effects were neutral, wasted your actions, or were negative. Statistically you were better off never surging. With only a 5% chance I did entire game nights, and even played entire levels where I never had a single wild surge. The only reason I took a wild magic sorcerer was to have some fun surges, and at the time only two choices were available.
@@dsc3275 Exactly! Someone finally gets it! The wild magic table in 2014 is far worse than it appears at first glance. There were some unambiguously bad options on the table. There were some supposedly neutral ones, but in many cases the neutral ones were only neutral because they targeted a random nearby creature, which could be friend or foe. Debuffing an enemy who's going to die in the next 2 rounds anyway works out to a slight advantage, but debuffing one of your allies can be crippling. And even most of the supposedly positive options are only positive if you're prepared to use them. For example, what good is an accidental teleport if you were planning to stay where you were?
I would argue that about 3/4 of the options on the table lean at least a little to the negative, and I can count on 1 hand the number of options that are unambiguously positive.
The wild magic sorcerer was great if you were in a joke campaign where being silly is more important than playing optimally. (To be fair, that kind of campaign sounds like a heck of a lot of fun). But in a serious campaign I wouldn't even want to be in a party with a wild magic sorcerer.
If the new list is better, it might actually be a viable subclass.
I can’t wait for the Warlock breakdown!
same!
I could paraphrase if you like?
You can get your pact at L1, but your Subclass is delayed to 3, swapping them.
You can have all or no pacts as they are L0 warlock invocations and you start with one invocation at L1. As a tradeoff you can get 10 invocations instead of 8 at the end of your training.
You get a repeatable invocation that just gives you an extra origin feat. While origin feats are weak, you can take skilled up to 12 times as a Human and laugh with 33 extra skill proficiencies, or gain Lucky, Toughness, Healer, or Musician stacked up without costing one of your more precious general feats. A viable alternative to a skill rogue or bard. I'm loving the idea of a Sherlock Holmes who can cast speak with dead at will for free.
Pact of the Blade is very good, even if it doesn't give you weapon mastery. Ultimately still get smite, but you also have up to 3 attacks, which can lifesteal as usual with further invocations. You also attack and deal damage with Charisma if you prefere by default. You can change its damage type to radiant, necrotic, or psychic at will. You can no longer shunt a bonded physical weapon to an extradimentional space however. You can still summon or desummon a manifested one. The weapon counts as a spellcasting focus if you want to summon a greataxe or polearm, or "attune" your bond to a longbow.
Pact of the chain is mostly unchanged, but you can have a lot more options for your familiar, like a medium size skeleton, or a flying tiny magic sphinx, etc. Plus Find famillar buff makes it very strong in that regard compared to old familiars, since seeing through its eyes no longer renders you blind and deaf, and is a bonus action. Yes, you can use an invisible familiar as a spotter to Sacred Flame through a solid wall providing full cover.
Pact of the Tome however is basicly useless. Your hard locked like the ritual caster feat to L1 rituals ONLY same as ritual caster. It no longer allows any L2+ ritual spell based off 1/2 your warlock level. Of the ritual spells not already available as invocations, or on your class spell list which can be cast ritually if you know them, 4 are on the cleric list and only Alarm is missing. You're better off taking a single level of cleric for Medium, heavy and shield armour proficiency, proficiency in all martial weapons, the same number of bonus cantrips (though these must be on the cleric list), 4 out of the 5 ritual spells you didnt know prepared for free, and one more L1 spell slot a day, two total, compared to the single L1 PotT invocation's bonus spell slot.
As to basic QOL changes? You get half your spell slots back once a long rest when you take a 1 minute ritual breather starting L2. Major improvement given most of your life is sitting at 2 spells a short rest. Your capstone ability just makes it all spells instead of half at L20 upgrading this, so no change. Your agonizing blast is now applicable to any cantrip of your choice, thus allowing design flexibility. Its also a repeatable invocation so you can become a cantrip master. I'm personally looking forward to making a Celestial Bladepact warlock using Agonised Burst of Radiance and Green-flame Blade, just for the giggles. Also Eldritch Spear can apply to any cantrip with a range over 10'. Also repeatable. +30' per warlock level adding from 30-600' to the range. Sadly they planned ahead enough for the 10' min range provisor. No 610' radiant burst hammer ground pounding warlock for me. :)
Finally NO "Cast X spell with a warlock spell slot" junk. While the list of spells available is a little more restricted they're all "You can cast X without a spell slot". No limit per day. Just whenever you want. At will. Plus all the subclass spell lists are prepared. Automaticly. Just bonus spells known giving you the warlock more spells known than before.
As for subclasses?
Celestial, no real change. But your Celestial resillience also gives temp HP when you use your L2 ability to regain 1/2 spell slots, as well as short rests. Needed since musician origin feat does the same thing as the L10 subclass ability on a rest so its isnt completely useless. Probably still the weakest subclass. Still my favorite.
Fiend is mostly the same but Hurl Through Hell is a lot stronger. You can now regain temp HP from Dark One's Blessing if the enemy just dies within 10'. No more killstealing required. You benefit from your allies work.
Archfey? Complete change. Now its a Misty Step class. Multiple free uses a day (which ofc dont block a Magic/Spellcast action). The spell can cast as a reaction after L6, and whenever you TP you get a 2ndary bonus. Temp HP gain, Taunt those you left behind so they cant hit allies accurately, Become invisible until the start of your next turn, or 2D10 psychic AOE at your arrival or departure point.
Great Old one? Arguably now one of the strongest dueling single targets. More Cthulhu mind warping eldritch horror themed than before. Telepathy is now infinite uses, and later you can make them make a willsave and on failure you get advantage on all attacks aginst them and they have disadvantage on all attacks against you as you read their mind and dodge with foresight. Improved hex also disadvantages their saves in adition to ability checks. You can summon aberation... except unique to this calss you can summon a version without concentration. Done this way drops its duration to 1 minute. For you, the abberation has bonus HP and if it strikes your hexed target, deals bonus damage equal to the spell. Finally the kicker? ALL illusion and enchantment spells you cast are subtle (no verbal or somantic componets) and at will you can change any damage any of your spells do to psychic.
I feel like Kelly needs to get Monty into eyeliner for that one
If you haven't seen it already, Colby from D4 Deep Dive has done a breakdown video of all the classes as well.
Oddly enough the thing I’m most looking forward to now is the new Sorcerous Burst cantrip. The choice of damage type and damage boost possibility feels very sorcerer to me.
I don’t think it’s quite worth it, but I will be empowered this cantrip regularly. So much fun.
Looking forward to? Just home brew it into your campaign. I've already added all the new/updated spells and feats into beyond. Everything's on the internet already. Just copy and paste. EZ
I don't know if I'd take it. Fire Bolt is a d10 damage. Toll of the Dead is d10, but d12 on a wounded creature. On the new cantrip, the damage is less and the chance of getting an extra d8 damage is only 12.5%. in the long run, these other can trips will do more damage.
@dsc3275 if you do the math. (I haven't, but other TH-camrs have.) It does the same damage as fire bolt over the corse of a campaign because of the chance of exploding dice.
You can't compare it to Toll the Dead since Sorcerers don't get access to Toll the Dead, and it's a saving throw cantrip, not a to hit cantrip. They aren't even in the same class of cantrip.
@@chrisg8989 well technically firebolt does just under a half point more damage on average. But I’m with you, a half point of damage is a small price to pay for the fun of the exploding damage and even mechanically seems a fair deal with the choice of damage types.
Homebrew idea for Twin Spell since being able to modify spells is kinda a Sorcerer's thing. If the spell can normally be up-cast to target additional creatures, it costs 1 Sorcery Point to target an additional creature. If the spell normally cannot target additional creatures via up-casting then it costs the base spell's level in Sorcery Points.
That's a nice way to blend the 2014 and 2024 rules, keeping them backwards compatible as they said the books would be. As one that plays sorcerers as my favorite class, I would welcome your idea.
This makes more sense but it allows fun spell play and that goes against the new desire of 'human Martial Class or be a support.'
@@nickm9102 No negativity here my dude. The data showed that humans were the most popular species and martials needed an update. Only natural that those things got buffed. And while the change to twin spell sucks it is not the end of the world and is a minor thing in comparison to all the upgrades Sorcerer got.
But if you think playing a support character is some how bad then you my friend are not playing them properly.
@@RoninXDarknight I don't have a problem with support characters if that is what you want to play. My issue is that, at least to me, it seems like rather than elevating the martials to caster (A false need that I have given mechanical evidence to on several other videos) they took the majority of the creative options for casters and created rules or mechanics to remove that creativity.
All the arguments about casters being stronger than Martials, I only saw it when it was by player design. I played with a guy who apologized for his build because it wasn't a damage focus... But he couldn't roll below a something like 19 on his "weak skills" for that game I was playing a Warlock that was a sniper and siege weapon (600ft Eldridge Blast and an instant fortress and staff of the Magi for the big casts) and I was the third strongest for consistent damage.
I am looking forward to playing my wizard when the 2024 PHB is released but it has nothing to do with liking the ruleset. I am looking forward to it because I'm in a campaign that is planned for lvl 20 and I want to try the conjure minor elementals/any multiple attack ability. I want to try it myself once before they errata it out of the game.
4:43 - Great attention to detail on MM: Quicken Spell. It is 2014 Bonus Action Casting Clause, snuck onto Quicken Spell.
“Come to the dark side we have cookies” Why do I feel old now…
Because that shirt was at hot topic circa 2006
It was "Come to the Dark Side (...)" not "Welcome". You blasphemers! ;-)
@@devilkidhugger1199 My apologizes let me fix that XD
Honestly the only thing I’m disappointed with the sorcerer is the subclass choices. I think the 2 added previous ones should have been storm and shadow sorcerers. Those need a little more of a glow up in comparison and just fit the sorcerer vibe quite a lot.
Aberrant mind whoops all other subs, easily
I think of innate sorcery more like going super saiyan or more often Terra's ability in Final Fantasy 6 to transform into an esper form to become stronger. Terra, being an esper hybrid, is quite literally the only natural sorcerer in the world of FF6
This was said by someone else in the comments of a different video, but it also would've been better to have a new shadow sorcerer and storm sorcerer in the phb instead of clockwork and aberrant. Clockwork and aberrant are already good, shadow and storm needed the update
Colby of D4 is pro-Sorcerer now as well. Sounds like Chris aka Treantmonk stands alone in the Wizard camp. Agree (without book in hand yet), in actual levels of campaign play, Sorcerer is spellcaster royalty.
Treantmonk implied his stance was because of Conjure Minor Elementals when he was discussing it with Colby. If you don't houserule CME in some way it's really hard to see Sorcs comparing favorably versus Bard/Wizard
"Arcane Viger" works amazingly with "Bloodwelll Vile" item because it works on rolling hit dice not taking a short or long rest, so casting that spell will get you 5 sorcery point and some hit points👍
I’m pretty sure you can Twin Fly, which is pretty cool. Only team buff spell I can think of.
Bless, if you find a way to learn it
@@arturcorreiasantos4774multiclass cleric for armor prof at level 2 or something, u also get 4 cleric cantrips + 4 cleric spells 😎
@@arturcorreiasantos4774 That was my next thought. I think Magic Initiate: Cleric can do it or just, a Divine Soul Sorcerer.
Magic initiate cleric
Animate objects**, Bane (DS), Bless (DS), Fast Friends (DS), Invisibility. Thats all I can think of that would be team based I'd argue that extra meatshield objests of the first spell is kind of a buff, right?
** depends on wording if twinned spell says specificly creature not this one cos it target objects.
Not many damage spells come to mind. Just Chromatic Orb and Chain Lightning.
(DS=Divine soul only: cleric list)
As a sorcerer fan I always thought the class was just completely gated from being good, they felt nerfed in so many aspects. 2024 sorcerer though, they got so many buffs I honestly feel like they overdid it lol, I'm really excited to play it
18:40 when the wild magic sorcerer at our table rolls I am always chanting "potted plant"
This critique of mine is similar to most people’s disdain for summoning a dragon over becoming a dragon in the draconic sorcerer but for the new aberrant sorcerer. I know it may be more busted than I realize, but I really wish the aberrant sorcerer’s psionic spells ability worked with all enchantment/divination spells they pick up-not just the ones in the spell list. It would have made up for not being able to swap psionic spells. I never liked having Arms of Hadar, Hunger of Hadar, Summon Aberration, and Black Tentacles on a psychic sorcerer when I didn’t want the far realm/tentacle flavor. Otherwise, I’d want at least some other way to mechanically support a non-tentacle AM flavor.
It's the direction they should have taken, but wouldn't because it would clash with the uodated Goolock. Despite it being the AM's niche first, it was clearly more of a design focus to make sure the Great Old One was successful.
...Also being able to pair stuff like Suggestion or Dominate Person with Misty Step can be kinda busted.
Out of combat the Wizard is still better than the Sorcerer thanks to the rituals they get for example Tiny Hut especially since they don't need to prepare them to cast them.
21:20 in my opinion that's how the balance always should be though. Between those two classes. The sorcerer should get to cast the stronger more potent spells due to them getting to empower them with metamagic. Cause it's a whole extra resource for your magic it should give you stronger spellcasting overall. and the wizard should have to keep up with them due to their deeper more versatile bag of tricks with their spells. And for the longest time the wizard didn't have to care about the sorcerer's metamagic. cause they could do almost everything the sorcerers could do and sometimes better. In my opinion this is how it should be. The wizard should have a little bit of a disadvantage that they need to make up for. Not a huge one. But it's there
Some part of me thinks that the Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul got changed to no longer be able to change their spells because WOTC couldn't figure out how to get changing their spell list to work on DDB
didn't wotc admit they had to rush the development of the sorcerer subclasses and didn't have time to make them work?
Whoops gotta put down my dungeon dudes video so I can watch the new dungeon dudes video. (I was catching up on Drakkenheim)
Same here. I just started Drakkenheim, and was about to start Campaign 1 Episode 30.
I'm with you Kelly, Sorcerer has been my longtime favorite class and I'm glad it got so much love in the revision!
The Sorcerer (especially Wild Magic) has been my absolute favorite class since I started playing. I am so excited to play this new version!
You know when Monty is happy of the changes in a class. Yesterday, he didn't bother to open the book for the ranger. Today, the book is already open! xD
who is marty
@@KalelGreece Meant to say Monty... my autocorrect is bad...
If you're having problems with summon dragon for draconic sorcerer, re-flavor it as calling upon an ancestor. Zero mechanical changes, improved hilarity as your great-grandpa swoops in and reigns fire.
Or y'know. The spell list that gives you many dragon like traits.
Between wizards and sorcerers, I think the difference is strongly related to what kind of versatility you want.
Sorc is better at creating on demand versatility, altering spells to better fit the situation
Wizard is better in time spending versatility, as they can switch out their spell list daily and cast any ritual they have in their spellbook
Honestly, I’m just really excited that I can play a sorcerer and not have to deal with such a small amount of spells known
Been waiting for this one🙌
The advantage of a Wizard is they can prepare spells based on their plans. A prepared wizard is very powerful. But the wizard needs to have a lot of spells in their spellbook to be able to use the point of the class. That is why I give Intelligence bonus per level per Wizard class level in addition to the other spells based on level. They can, of course, find or buy other spells to add.
This is a very old take on the wizard class. I don't mean that in a bad way; it works like this in pathfinder and previous DND editions. It's just not how most people play spellcasters in general, where you pick certain spells you like and use mainly those.
There is also an issue with communicating exactly what is going to happen in the adventure day to "prepare" accordingly, and the fact that some spells are just significantly more powerful and applicable in all situations (fireball, hypnotic pattern).
@@Lilith_Harbinger I played a lot of wizards (also called Magic Users) in the 80s and 90s.
Kelly just hamming it up and hammering home how good the sorcerer is like he just won a decade long argument and I love it. Good friendship vibes that it was done so well. Love it!
Note about Ritual Caster in 2024: It does not specify what spell lists you can pick the spells from. Meaning you can pick up spells like Find Familiar and other spells from spell lists other than the Wizard as well.
Yes, but it does specificly state L1 spells only. That's Alarm, Ceremony, Comprehend languages, Detect magic, Detect poison and disease, Find familiar, identify, illusionary script, purify food and drink, speak with animals, tensers floating disk, unseen servant.
Already on the Sorcerer list is Comprehend languages, detect magic. Identify can be done with 1 hours study during a short rest for free.
That leaves 4 on the cleric list, 5 on the wizard list. If you're a divine soul sorcerer you only lack the 5 on the wizard list...
Is Alarm, find familiar, illusionary script, tensers disk, and unseen servant really woth that general feat?
Its even worse for warlock. Their spell list only has 6 of these spells missing, and 4 of them are cleric. Take one level of cleric for medium, heavy, shield and martial proficiency, along with all 4 of the missing cleric spells, the same 3 bonus cantrips but 2 L1 bonus spell slots a day for the warlock. To rub it in, take Pact of the tome invocation for an extra L1 spell slot and all the ritual spells known, along with an extra 3 cantrips. Incidently Pact of the tome is equally nerfed into the ground, locking you to L1 rituals only.
The aberrant sorcerer has Rary's Telepathic bond as a ritual, if anyone cares
Not much need for it when they get unlimited Telepathy from the get-go.
@@M9Seradonalso lunar Sorcerer gets that and two other 5th spells (one of them also). AND another good ritual with phantom steed
Playing a Sorcerer now with the 2024 edition sounds better than ever..
DM: so, what are you?
ME: wizard 🧙♂️ why are you asking?
4:38 I am confused why I would take resilient con on a sorcerer. Don’t they get proficiency on con saves from level 1?
With this nerf, Twinned metamagic becomes almost useless! Upcasting a spell one level and spending one sorcery point are exactly the same. The only remaining benefit I see is if you want to upcast one level above the highest spell slot you have -- either because you ran out of your higher-level spell slots or you aren't yet able to cast at levels that high.
1 sorcery point to upcast a 4th level spell as 5th level spell, or a 5th level spell into a 6th level spell is a *bargain*. As we said, it's REALLY good on Mind Whip, Banishment, and Hold Monster
@@DungeonDudes I'm truly at a loss. I don't see the point (or the bargain) if you can just upcast it with a normal spell slot instead.
@@bigdream_dreambig Higher level spell slots are more valuable. A character only gets 2-3 5th level slots, and for most of the campaign only gets 1 6th level slot.
Using Hold Monster as an example. If we want to affect two targets, we can either choose to use a 6th level spell slot, OR with twin spell we can use a 5th level slot and 1 sorcery point.
Personally, I would rather use the 5th level slot and 1 sorcery point, and save the 6th level slot for an actual 6th level spell. We only get one of those for most levels of play. Or if you're a 9th or 10th level character who doesn't have 6th level spell slots, Twin Spell is letting you upcast a spell even though you wouldn't normally be able to do so.
Hope that makes sense.
@@DungeonDudes Thank you for taking the time to clarify. I now understand where you're coming from. In my recent play, my most common twin has been level-2 Vortex Warp, so I feel that loss especially keenly.
I have always had fun with the sorcerers I have played. So much so that I have and still will allow UA sorcerer subclasses such as the phoenix and stone sorcerer in my games. I once played a stone sorcerer / champion fighter multiclass in a one-shot that was a blast to play. It was great. I really enjoy your videos and your perspective on the new changes. Keep up the good work.🎉
Id really like a video on the Apothecary for One DnD, like what would you guys add or subtract from it
I cannot wait to revamp my first character with the 2024 rules, currently getting to use him in a campaign and I asked the DM if I could change his draconic subclass to the new one :D
Wizard still has the better spells and while they can’t prepare as many spells they can cast any rituals in their spell book. I think the wizard can still hold their own against sorcerers. I always felt like sorcerer was by far the better class to multiclass but I think straight wizard still beats out straight sorcerer. By a hair.
Looks nice! Since 2024 excluded the artificer, my first new character may be sorcerer.
When you said that Sorcerer's have 10 more prepared spells than Wizards at Level 11, I thought you'd made a mistake and went check the Wizard's new Savant feature. But you're right! Savant only adds the extra spells to the Wizard's spellbook, but they are *not* automatically prepared. Womp womp.
The Wizard are not just strong because they could cast a hypnotic pattern, they are strong because they had access to the most amount of ritual spells in the game without the need to prepare those spells to use them. Your book was your massive toolbox of rituals, and your prepared spells are your combat spells. While Sorcerer is very strong now, and probably will be the next caster I wish to play, it still doesn't beat the on demand versatility of the absurd amount of rituals that you can cast as a Wizard.
To be fair... Sor and wiz have the same number of prepared spells. Yes wizards can consider their rituals as 'prepared', thats a total of 18 spells, a lot of which are almost never useful. The subclass spells of a sorcerer is around 14 they get prepared for free. There's very little difference in total spells if the sorc uses their personal spell selections to pick the rituals.
The realistic comparison is they both have aproximately the same number of spells prepared, but Sorcerers get massive versatility from metamagic in exchange for a more rigid specialisation of role, while the wizard gets partial versatility from swapping spells around when they rest, and their class unique spell lists.
In a fight, assuming no ambush, team sorcerer will always beat team wizard. Always. Out of a fight, the sorcerer is more likely to be unable to help solve the problem before them.
@@rogerexcell249 Actually the in combat comparison is between casting weaker spells better, or casting better spells vanilla. In 2014 no amount of twin or heightened spell is going to replace a force cage and all the quickened spell in the world won't compare to a simulacrum (if you afford one).
I don't know what's in the 2024 phb, but apparently conjure minor elementals might or might not be broken. Judging by the UA version it's a self buff of 2d8 per attack roll per spell level above 3rd (so 2d8 at 4th level, 4d8 at 5th level, etc). Combine that with scorching ray and once again possibly no amount of balanced spells cast with meta magic can replicate that effect.
@@randomnobody660 Except Dispel magic (L3) destroys simulacrum (L7), and Fey Step or any other TP can get you out of force cage. I stand by my asseration that on average, 100 sorcs will always beat 100 wizards. Sorcs dont cast weaker spells better, they cast the same spells better. They all have the same number and level of spell slots. While some of the wizard only spells are very good, counterspell and dispel magic are the levelers.
Also The sorc has the advantage here too as they can use a sorc point to reroll a dispel, counterspell or banish Ability check
@@rogerexcell249 Oh you mean in pvp situations? I'd argue the topic is about comparing the 2's usefulness in general encounter combat, to which the answer is unequivocally wizards.
Pvp situations are quite different, but let's look at that.
First, dispel magic destroying simulacrum is irrelevant because a feeble mind (or even hypnotic pattern) from said simulacrum will similarly destroy your sorcerer. In general both wizard and sorcerer will one tap each other. Except...
Second, wizards don't actually get tapped. They have clone, or simulacrum, or contingency resilient sphere (triggered on being targeted by hostile spell for example), or arcane abeyance mote on a familiar, or shapechange, etc such that either they survive the tap or aren't the one being tapped.
Third, wizards will generally go first. They have gift of alacrity, foresight, various subclasses that adds int mod to initiative etc. Failing all that, wizards have pass without trace, so sorcs without alert are getting surprised, and either way they fight on the wizards' terms.
Sorcerers are very much not casting the same spells. The difference between the best wizard spells and the best sorcerer spells simply aren't made up by meta magic.
@@randomnobody660 I'd counter argue the fight going like this.
Wizard tries to cast, but sorcerer subtle counterspells it.
Sorcs subtle casts silence. and then quicken casts a cantrip that lowers movement 10' and getting a headstart on damage done.
Wizard tries to move out of the silenced area. Insufficient movement.
Sorcs casts twinned, empowered cantrips, then hold person or flesh to stone, or a spell to shove them back in silence (thunderwave, bigbys hand, or whirlwhind for example), or just walks up and grapples the wizard and stand in silence subtle casting. HP gap expands.
Kelly, I find your offer intriguing…. “Come to the dark side, we have cookies”
Tell me, if chocolate chip cookies have chocolate chips in them…
And oatmeal raisin cookies have raisins in them…
Does the dark side have Girl Scout cookies with real Girl Scouts in them ??
It’s a shame they didn’t give wild magic sorcerer SOME extra spells. There’s a lot of flavour and power to be had in spells like Nathairs Mischief, Distort Value, Enlarge/Reduce, Enemies Abound and so so many more that have the essence of chance and whimsy whilst still putting the ability to choose when to use these effects in to the hands of the player instead of relying entirely on wild magic surges
Sorcerer has been my favorite class since 3rd (I'm not blind enough to say that I think they're the best, just they've always been my favorite).
So this video is actually troubling to me, because I wasn't really thinking about upgrading to the new PHB at all, but now it seems like my single favorite class is walking reeeeaallllllly tall in it....
a few mistake or imprecision:
Yes TECHNICALLY sorcerer have the subclass spell list that add to their spell knowns
Except:
If you take a 2014 subclass with no subclass spell list
Then if you take a 2024 with a subclass spell list, those spell list (unlike the abberant mind in tasha) cannot be changed, so at best you have 5 good spells and 5 bad spells on those list, some of those list have no good spell. Let's take the Tasha abberant mind sorcerer spell list for example (since I do not have access to the 2024 update:
1st Arms of Hadar, Dissonant Whispers, Mind Sliver
3rd Calm Emotions, Detect Thoughts
5th Hunger of Hadar, Sending
7th Evard's Black Tentacles, Summon Aberration
9th Rary's Telepathic Bond, Telekinesis
Arm of Hadar is a bad sorcerer spell, few sorcerer do not like being stuck in melee so no I do not want arm of hadar on my sorcerer
DIssonant Whisper yes great spell; +1
Calm Emotion: no way too situational, so few instance where calm emeotion is useful in a campaign to be worth a spot on my sorcerer spell list
Detect tought : sure can be useful if the DM understand the spell properly as a no saving throw lies detector (and prevent gruesome torture scene in game with sensitive people)
Hunder of Hadar: concentration for 4d6 damage in a stationary location, sorry I much prefer casting twin haste on my rogue and barbarian and let them destroy the ennemy
Sending: really why sending is even here, at level 6 I can subtle cast those spell using my sorcerer point. when the fuck do you even want to cast subtle sending??? I mean sending is an out of combat spell, so being to cast it no using spell slot is not a benefit and I never got counterspell out of combat
Evard's Black tentacles: ok that a god spell offering some control but I hope your team have access to devil sight or blindsight in order to shoot monster inside the darkness and personally I hate having to tell my team: hey guy sI'm going to use Evard's Black tentacles often since it's one of my free psionic spell, so if you want to participate in combat you all need to grab a way to see in the magical darkness the spell create. And yes even the shadow monk need to grab devil sight, since the shadow monk can see inside his own darkness, not my darkness.
Summon Aberration: ok yes a summon spell can be useful against those creature with legendary resistance +1
Rary's telepathic bound: same problem as Sending: I do not cast that spell in combat so it's not an advantage to have it on this list
Telekinesis: sure good option when facing low strenght monster +1
So we got 4 good spells, 2 spells that do not benefit from the mechanic of the class and 4 bad spell that are either too situational or just bad spell for most sorcerer or are good spell but IF the party build around it
2024 Sorcerers flat-out have more spells known. A 2024 Sorcerer at 10th level has 15 spells known, compared to the 2014 sorcerer's 11. That's 4 extra spells that can be whatever you want from the Sorcerer spell list. Even if you don't like all the spells on the expanded spell list for a subclass -- the base sorcerer gives you more flexibility.
"...and in my personal and completely biased opinion," killed me XD.
Let me just say that you guys are hitting your stride, really enjoying all of your episodes.
Sorcerer may be better control or blaster casters, but the wizard has them beat in versatility and utility.
Wizards get ritual adept which allows them to cast non prepared ritual spells from their spell book. So any ritual spell does not have to compete for space on the prepared spells list. Wizards can also swap out their whole prepared spell list on a long rest. Sorcerers are for the most part stuck with their spell choices, only being able to swap spells on a level up. Wizards at level 5 get memorize spell. Every short rest they can prepare an extra spell they don't already have prepared. A diligent wizard can cater their prepared spell list to better deal with the challenges of the day. Be it social, combat or exploration a wizard can bounce between roles every day. A sorcerer on the other hand can not do that. Sorcerers have to take more care when picking spells. While they have more room for spells now its still possible for a sorcerer to make bad spell choices that they could be potentially stuck with. The wizard does not have that problem.
Wizards also generally end up being better control and blaster casters just because of the spells they have access to.
My favorite change is being able to reliably use wild magic. I played one in old rules and only got to roll on the table like twice in a whole campaign since it was rare and up to DM
Aren't the wizards supposed to gain additional spells on odd levels? I heard Crawford mention this in a video. Illusionists getting 2 spells at 3rd and then 2 more Illusions, then an extra 3rd illusion at 5, 7, etc? It seems like that's a way to get an expanded list (though I know the two summons have been added).
No, they get a spell book, and every level up once they get their subclass gives a spell in their book for free that matches their school specialisation. Its isnt auto-prepared. Sorcerers and warlock bonus spells from their subclasses are auto prepared over the wizard limits Without the sublcass spells a warlock has 15 prepared, the wizard has 22, and the sorc has 22, but sorc and war add all their subclass ones Extra too. The advantage Wizards get is they can ritual cast their unprepared ritual spells freeing some up, and they have methods to swap their prepared spells around when they rest. Technicly they have all spells potentially known with time and money. Wizards get flexible choices, but less spells ready, and vastly lower damage and flexibility. Warlocks get sustained damage from enhanced cantrips but fewer spells a day and vastly restricted spell lists. Sorcerers get bonus damage on leveled spells and other advantages with metamagic and "magic rage" and their subclass gives effectively unchangeable specialization.
Wizard: most flexible and strongest out of combat.
Sorcerer: most powerful in short fights or at their specialty.
Warlock: most powerful in long fights due to build around ehanced cantrips.
Bard: Best at support, with the games best buffs and debuffs, with the ability to pick some of the best spell of other classes. They compare on par between a wizard and warlock in combat, and have the skills proficiencies to be flexible outside of combat on par with a wizard. Basicly Bard is kind of a better wizard, but solves the problems with skills not spells.
Ok but is there a way to see what spells that can be twinned? Like a simple list, or an identify the spells on the full lists? I’ve always found finding spells that can/can’t do a thing or can be cast as a bonus action or whatever. It’s just a huge pain in the butt to find which spells require x y or z. You always have to look online or outside of the source to find these things and then add them to your character sheet (not that the game comes with character sheets now).
Playing a drag Sorcerer currently, soooo glad the subclass got a long long overdue upgrade
To my knowledge so far:
Chromatic orb, Tasha's Mind whip, Chain Lightning. These are the only damage spell it works on.
Invisibility, enhance ability, Fly, Air bubble, banishment, Blindness/deafness, Catnap, charm monster, charm person, Command, Etherialness (very poorly), hold person, hold monster, Intellect Fortress. These are the only sorcerer buffs and debuff spells it works on tomy knowledge. Some require TCE optional variant casting rules to take.
MAYBE (depends if it says another target or another creature),
Animate Objects, Animate Dead
For Divine soul ONLY
Bane, Bless, Fast Friends
@@rogerexcell249 thank you. It would be helpful if that list was accessible in the book I am hoping that a complete list will be easy to find online as new spells and books come out.
@@rogerexcell249 Why would it work on Chromatric Orb and Chain Lightning? They don't allow you to choose additional tragets when upcast
?
I double checked the wording on Chromatic orb, and I think you're possibly right there though it does say it can leap to an additional target with each upcast. See end paragraph.
Did Chain Lightning change? Its upcast says.
"At Higher Levels when you cast this spell using a spell slot of 7th level or higher, one additional bolt leaps from the first target to another target for each slot level above 6th." It doesnt explicitly say creature since it can also target objects.. if you only lept to a creature I'd argue twinned spell would work. It can still be upcast to hit an additional creature after all.
I was under the assumption CO would be able to twin to hit an extra taget, but not do more damage. EG a basic level one can do 3d8 and hit 2 additional targets if enough 8s are rolled (rather than only 1 additional target) for 1 SP.
@@rogerexcell249 th-cam.com/users/shortsHOYEe-zq3EU?si=IK1XwYoqAqe2F7Bn
This isn't related to D&D 2024, but I remember you guys talking about wanting a fey sorcerer subclass in another video, and I thought of a way that could be done without it stepping on the toes of Archfey Warlock or College of Glamour Bard: a sorcerer born with fey magic such that fey creatures are naturally drawn to them and eagerly assist them in spellcasting. The idea would be that this sorcerer always has a fey creature near them whom they need for casting spells.
Think something like the show _The Ancient Magus' Bride:_ in that show, magi cast spells by working together with fey creatures.
That's an interesting way to take that idea and feels far more feasible than what I'd have thought of. I would have taken it a "fey deal" route and you just borrow and trade abilities with things, sort of a variant blue mage type deal. But that would be very, very hard to balance well.
@@TerminalDevastation Thanks. Incidentally, another example of what this subclass would be trying to achieve would be Zelda in the upcoming Zelda game: Echoes of Wisdom. In that, she casts spells by working together with the fairy Tri that's always floating right next to her.
To go into a bit more detail with my idea, the idea would be that the sorcerer can pick a fey creature such as a pixie, a will-o-the-wisp, etc., and that creature stays near them and helps them cast magic (note that they are assisting; they are not the source of the sorcerer's magic, but without them, the sorcerer can't turn that magic into spells). Unlike a summoning-based subclass, this subclass would be encouraged to keep the fey creature close to them and away from enemies.
Only a slight quibble but I feel like it made sense for Sorcerer to not get ritual casting. I suppose even now, they barely get any rituals anyway, but rituals definitely feel a lot more wizard/cleric/druid to me as a concept
That's silly and unfair to other players just becuase you think it's "fitting". The idea that certain people should get preferential treatment because of their chosen class is a terrible way to go about game design.
@@M9Seradon it's not very polite to call people silly, and i'd rather you didn't. Every class gets its own special features that make them better at something at something than others, that's not giving people preferential treatment, it's just making classes that are distinct from each other. To me that would be like saying that all casting classes should get access to healing magic, because otherwise that's preferential treatment of a select few classes
Sorcerer has always been my favorite caster and now its as good as I always wanted it to be.
You could do the old cantrip spell slot one two, you just had to cast the cantrip as an action then quicken whatever spell as a bonus action. Mechanically the same thing, but I think this change is way simpler and clears up a lot of annoying conversations at the table.
The 2024 rules still require these same steps. The dudes must have gotten excited and forgotten what they said @4:48 (no leveled spells before or after quickened spells) and @6:13 (Quickened allows same pairings of actions & spells in the 2024 rules as it did in 2014).
@@ClaudiusPunchinello Yeah, I've since learned that this is the case.
My only issue with aberrant mind now is having to keep the far realm flavor. I switched out everyone of the tenticle spells.
My favourite aspect of Twinned Spell is that it allows you to break the pre-level-19 limit on casting more than one 6th level spell per turn. Twinning Hold Monster or an upcast Banishment lets you spend a 5th level slot and 1 sorc point to cast it at 6th level.
Multiclass a 9th level warlock with sorcerer and now your pact slots can be cheaply boosted to 6th level for the purpose of multi-target upcasting.
with flavor & rp, I've always preferred sorc over wizard in 5e. and these changes make me even more excited to make my next full spell caster a sorcerer for upcoming campaigns with the new rules!
Excited for Warlock like a few of us here. I feel like Sorcerer will be the strongest but Warlock is still the most customizable and fun. Especially with way less punishment for crabbing feats they can cast more spells with Fey touched etc.
The main mistake in the design of Sorcerers was the too few spells known and too few metamagics available.
It's great that they increased them both, but at least for Metamagics, they still come too late.
At level 3 getting just 2 metamagics is very restrictive when metamagic is the main allure of the class and most metamagics are applicable for only so few spells. As a lvl3 player, having to play with just 2 metamagics all the way to level 10 which may be a few months away sucks.
They should start with 3 metamagics and gain another one at lvl6, then gain another at 10, and one at 17 to the same total of 6 metamagics at the end.
I wanted to wildshape into a dragon but instead they gave us a pet. Like we are drakewardens. The draconic fantasy is about being a dragon. Not being friends with a dragon.
You have different dragon fantasies then me I wanna ride them
"You're going to be a Ranger whether you want to or not!"
I'm going to RP that its a relative.
*Summons Dragon* "Grandpa?"
@@CharlesUrban I wish Rangers were treated as nicely as the draconic sorcerer, removing the need for concentration on your defining spell and an expanded spell list for a subclass that didn't have one because it was made before the change to include that
See… I don’t think that matters. I’ve never thought of it. Dragon stuff is dragon stuff
My first pc was a sorcerer, and it’s still one of my top classes! I haven’t played a sorcerer since that 2019-2021 campaign, and I can’t wait to try the 2024 sorcerer out soon!
Sorcerers are the best! My favourite was a Fire Genasi Sorcerer with an Artificer background (started off Artificer, went - this doesn't fit what I'm looking for - and swapped hard over to sorcerer). Made them less Fire and more Volcanic Sorcerer; Melf's Minute Meteors being my head turning into a volcano and then re-forging itself with lava.
I have been a Sorcerer main since the first time I tried one and I could not be happier. I am making a Draconic Bloodline Dragonborn Blaster for my next game and I am sooo excited!! Love your content, thanks for the amzing video. Can't wait for the guide! 🔥
I like sorcerer more but they are really just as powerful as a Wizard at the cast level. While a sorcerer can cast rituals, the Wizard can have all of them. While the Wizard has 16 spells it can be any spell even one you find on an enemy - Sorcerers get more spells but are relatively locked in. I think that unlike the Ranger, they got this right!
If your DM lets you use Items from 5e then that Arcane Vigor spell is gonna be really good for Sorcerers. There is a Spellcasting Focus for Sorcerer’s in Tasha’s called the Bloodwell Vial that allows it’s user to regain 5 sorcery points once per day whenever the user rolls their hit dice. Previously there were only a few ways (that I know of) for sorcerers to heal with Hit Dice and make use of this item, but now any Sorcerer can use it at the cost of a spell slot!
I have always been curious about the sorcerer especially the divine soul sorcerer. I love the idea of blasting enemies on one turn then healing allies on the next. It felt like the ultimate spell caster to me. Sadly, divine soul sorcerer wasn't brought forward. Yes, I know things are supposed to be backward compatible, but it remains to be seen how well that will work in practice.
Radiant warlock was brough forward, but they didnt change it beyond making its Celestial Resilience ability work on their Magical Cunning feature. But since the musician origin feat does the same thing and temp HP dont stack that was mandatory to make the L10 feature not useless. Sadly Celestial warlocks remain by far the weakest subclass.
Bringing DSS forward would weaken you in a lot of ways because they did not get a subclass spell list. Rather they may pick a cleric spell when they'd normally pick a sorcerer one. IMO they'd still be useful for versatility, but they'd have lots less spells known that the 2024 variants. But adding cleric spells to the mix remains super strong with some of the strongest buffs and damage spell in game. Its a valid option for a party lacking a healing or support member, but you may have more fun as a smiting, martial Celestial warlock with radiant damage weapons and agonized green-flam blades. They get some bonus action healing and you could always take a Healer origin feat background. They'd get 12 cleric spells added to their spell list, with all of the critical ones like restorations and revivify.
You can play Divine Soul with 2024 rules almost exactly how it's written. The only change is you get subclass features at level 3. The subclass does lack an expanded spell list but with 22 spells known and how easy it is to get certain choice picks for free, you should be fine in most campaign settings.
@@M9Seradon Agreed. I dont think it would loose any effectiveness, and while it may have less versatility WRT prepared spells, it certainly will not lack for choice.
Excited for new sorcerer!! I never really played one in the past, but maybe now is my time to shine...
Draconic sorcerer has improved a lot. I just wish we got a bonus action breath weapon.😅😢
Hah! No that would be too awesome... wait.. usnt there a spell named Dragon Breath? Of course it dosent have gem elemental attacks🤪
I definitely wish it focused more on giving us draconic powers. We should get all the draconic themed spells for free including that spell that lets you become a dragon if you want. If a dragon of our heritage can do it, we should have it.
@@MeriliremYou do get them for free. They have a subclass spell list just like the Tasha's Sorcerers. Makes sense to me.
Quickened dragon breath spell.....problem solved!
Casting it is already a bonus action. The issue is that after that it takes not only your concentration it also takes an action each time you use it. That's why it's not what I'm looking for. What I wanted was a non-spell based bonus action to use concentration free breath weapon and I don't even think that would break the game.
I do love the upgrades to sorcerers (one of my favorites too)....but the ultra nerf of ritual caster feat means wizards get so so many great rituals (leomunds tiny hut, rary's bond) that a sorcerer can now never get I think makes wizards overall stronger class....although innate and metamagic make combat stronger for the sorcerer.....love that ythe draconic sorcerer can get charisma to every cantrip and spell at level 6!!!
If you take backwards compatibility you could be playing a Lunar Sorcerer with Ritual caster as a feat and get 90% of Wizard's best rituals while also having 37 spells on your base class alone AND metamagic...Wizard Is made to be a utility caster,Sorcerer takes the cake when It comes to combat (Even so Divine and Lunar,arguably even Clockwork,imo still have Crazy good Utility even comparable to a Wizard)
What infuriates me is Pact of the Tome got the ritual caster treatment: hard locked to L1 spells. Its litterally the whole point of pact of the tome: give access to wizard ritual spells and thus give them more spells options a day.
@@rogerexcell249 Yeah, i Guess Wotc didn't want to give out Wizard only spells that easily...then i Remember level 10 Bards exist but that's a different story. Bards,Sorcs and Wizards are probably going to be the holy triad of casters from now on, especially when a divine soul (hopefully they get an extended list too,getting them to be at 32 spells too) can cover both your Arcane and Divine spells needs basically having almost level 10 Bards versatility starting from level 3. I love Warlock too but i have to agree that tome did not receive as much love as other pacts:Blade now Is just crazy for spell-swords, Chain Is much better and gives a lot of fun options etc...Tome had some pretty dope stuff in its specific invocations like at Will sending and Death Ward for people whose name was written in the book but It feels a bit left behind...maybe it is Just recency bias but with the new Armor of Agathys Bladelocks look absolutely MASSIVE, and it is probably the first Warlock i'm going to play
It’s my and my wife’s birthday week, if you guys go 5/5 on videos I will be ecstatic lol. I know you guys did a marathon and the community really appreciates it.
LOVE that new cantrip!
I would get sorcerer for that cantrip alone. These changes make them sound a lot of fun with fun ways to mix up spells. Thanks for the video. Now I'm debating monk or sorc
Hey guys, quick question. In the backgrounds, there’s three backgrounds that have magic adapt and they each have a spell list in parentheses. But the description of magic adept says just pick a spell less. So, could I take the acolyte background and pick a different list than cleric?
I am curious about the Ritual Caster feat... with the new rules can you pick ANY 1st level ritual spell for this feat or does it have to be from your class spell list?
so if you have more than half your sorcery points before a short rest time to start swapping for spell slots. thus, in essence, gaining both sorcery points and spell slots on a short rest, pretty sweet.
Are you able to play the previous subclasses with this new sorcerer? For example, Divine Soul?
I use Sorcerous Burst a lot, and actually have maxed out my exploding d8s on it one time so far. And while I don't roll 8s every time, it happens enough to keep the mechanic fun for me. Innate Sorcery helps a lot too, because Advantage on the attack roll means more crits, which means double the d8s to roll and more chances for them to explode.
2:50 - So basically like Kaio-ken.
Thanks dudes! ❤
Sorcerers have Nerd Rage now and I love it. XD
Twin spell upcasted scorching ray? what are your thoughts on this raw-wise
Doesnt work. It doesnt target an extra creature, it makes an extra ray. Only chain lightning, chromatic orb and Tasha's Mind Whip work with Twinned Spell atm for pure damage spells.
I really enjoy your content about the changes to the game. I do feel however that you guys are putting to much emphasis on min-maxing classes. The element of the game is role play and problem solving. The battles are fun but learning how to use skills and abilities is a major part of character growth. I would like it if you could circle around to how the new classes approach these things.
The Sorcerer is my favorite class as well. I'll miss not being able to twin spell Shocking Grasp, Polymorph, or Greater Invisibility but having access to more spells and SP regenerating on a short rest softens that blow.
Wild Magic might be able to have three meta magics active at once. I saw the table somewhere at one point but can't find it. As long as the option for making all spells a bonus action isn't the last one. Tamed Surge would let you "bonus action" cast spells which could be considered Quicken, and then Sorcery Incarnate allows for 2 metamagic options on top of sudo Quicken.
Forgot to mention. I did like it before how you had to focus your sorcerer: be a blaster or bring support/utility spells, which is why I like druid because I coudl swap from day to day, but with sorcerer forced me to focus my build. But then agian, It would be nice to have more spells options. Makes sense. THough does that invade a wizzard's territory where they were to utility / know many spells class and ... Not sure how I feel about that.
Hey dungeondudes. Will you talk or make a post about D&Dbeyond replacing 2014 spells from its character builder?
When I first saw the changes to twin spell, I was super upset, but just like you guys, it feels lateral. but honestly there are so many situations that I see it being just better. Before I felt relegated to twin concentration like haste. Now i feel more open to actually twinning other spells
Must agree: sorcerers ARE thr best caster in the game
Heck yeah!
Sorcerer are my favorite casters, along with Druids. I think druid is a great healer, can be blasty (focusing on cold spells) and I do think they are my favorite class). Love Warlocks too, but I like the options you have. WIld magic is fun and crazy, storm and shadow magic are great thematic and I love the lightning/thundering sorcerer that can fly! Only played a storm magic, and started campaigns (they ended up short with party kills) for shadow and wild magic (wild magic was the culprit of a TPK when a fireball wiped the party... Yeah. we got fireballed at level 3... But I like the changes, and am excited to play my new shadow sorcerer. Maybe I'll do rune child.
I feel it's a tad strange to call simulacrum a "brief moment to shine" at lv13. Suppose the wizard finds the component to cast that. Doesn't the sorcerer just never recover past that point? Obviously you aren't likely to be able to loop it, but surely just having 1 clone is going to be allowed if you get to that level?
I was wondering that too, but then I think it is necause once you hit level 17 they are on equal level again. Simulacrum is extremely costly and has a cast time of 12 hours, it ia not something done in battle, but something you prepare and bring along. By level 17, no one would cast it traditionally, but would use the wish spell to replicate it, and use wish to recast it once it breaks down. On any day where you dont expend a 9th slot, you can get your simulacrum and that is the most convenient way to do it. So past level 17, when sorcerers also get wish, it doesnt matter having the spell anymore
@@igotnopatience1717 Eh. Only having 1 lv9 spell slot means sorcerers can't simulacrum chain alone for example. I get that's not socially acceptable to do, but if anything that illustrates how much stronger wizard is.
This is not mentioning shape change, contingency etc. You still have chronurgy mariliths auto succeeding every turn. There's also the new contingency conjure minor elementals into scorching ray dealing damage previously unseen etc.
@@randomnobody660 I think simulacrum cant be chained anymore, the new simulacrum spell text says it dissolves if you create another and that the simulacrum cant cast it.
@@igotnopatience1717 Simulacrum always had the 1 per caster limit. The added simulacrum can't cast restriction arguably doesn't matter since the simulacrum is casting wish, not simulacrum? "The spell simply takes effect" after all.
@@randomnobody660 didnt realize that, you are right!
I'm surprised you didnt cover Heightened Spell in more detail. Wasn't it's main change the fact it applies to ALL saves of that spell for its one-time cost (for one of it's targets). Cast Hold Monster banishment or Slow? ALL saves are at disadvantage until it ends.
I hate the twinspell change. No twinspell cure wounds, or word of healing, or spare the dying. Sucks for the Divine Soul. Usually to gain an extra target for multi-target spells just upcast one single level. Not really worth the ability compared to the other options IMO.
PS combine Arcane Vigor with Bloodwell vial. Have fun!
so good for boss killing now
@@deadku6150 It certainly guarantees he's spending those legendary actions on resistance saves... but I think they might just get a certain amount free on top of their actions now?
i like Distant spell. It has saved my party multiple times already (on 7th session of campaign Vecna) being able to cast counterspell and silvery barbs with 120 ft range has been clutch
More spells available and Innate Sorcery makes me very interested in running a Divine Soul in the 2024 rules. Obviously Spirit Guardians functionality changes are a big deal here, I'm less likely with my squishy hp to be actively running into enemies, but with 20 Charisma at level 8 and Innate Sorcery active... that's DC 17 to save on all of those Cleric spells, and it bumps again in just the next level. Thats really cool.
Can you do that sunbeam trick with call lightning ?
I'm super excited now to play sorcerer!!